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Hello and welcome to another 
episode of the AIGA Design 

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Podcast. 
My name is Lee Sean Huang. 

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I am the Co executive Director 
of learning and programs here at

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AIGA, the professional 
association for design. 

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On this season of the AIGA 
Design Podcast, we are exploring

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the intersection of design and 
performance with guests across 

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the design disciplines and 
related fields. 

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And now for my Co host. 
Hello everyone. 

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I'm Julia de Natalo, Design 
Competitions and Events Manager 

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at AIG. 
And our guest for this episode 

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is David KA Menon, Service 
Design and Delivery lead at the 

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City of Philadelphia. 
David, welcome to the show. 

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Thanks. 
For having me. 

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Yeah, we're really looking 
forward to our conversation 

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today, so let's just jump into 
it. 

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The first question is about your
background. 

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You have a really interesting 
academic background. 

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You have a bachelor's degree in 
animation film design, and then 

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you ursued a master's later in 
social design and then now 

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you're working in civic design. 
O Can you help us connect some 

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of the dots on your journey, 
your both your educational 

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journey and how you got to where
you are in your career? 

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Yes. 
So after my bachelor's, I worked

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as a visual designer for a few 
years in Mumbai, did a lot of 

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mixed visual media with local 
brands, national brands, 

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nonprofits, media companies. 
And at the time, it felt to me 

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like the media industry was more
quantity over quality. 

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And honestly, a lot of original 
thinking just wasn't prioritized

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and invested in. 
And then I had like all of these

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deeper questions about, you 
know, who am I actually 

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designing for and what is the 
broader impact of my work or 

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what it could be. 
And so I always knew about human

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centered design, but didn't 
quite know how to access that 

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pathway or that opportunity. 
And it was kind of around the 

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same time I was volunteering at 
this nonprofit where I developed

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interactive learning sessions 
for kids in shelter homes. 

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And I really enjoyed learning 
about these kids as just, you 

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know, human beings. 
And like they had so many 

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questions and hopes about the 
world. 

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And, you know, through like 
designing and facilitating those

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sessions, I realized I was just 
using a lot of human centered 

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approaches to that. 
And so that's kind of what led 

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me to the social design program 
at MICA in Baltimore. 

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And then pretty much right after
that, I was given this 

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opportunity at the city of 
Philadelphia and have been here 

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over 7 years now. 
And you know, sometimes people 

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ask me why did you choose this 
job or this civic design space? 

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And honestly, like at the time, 
you know, as someone whose 

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residency was tied to their job,
it didn't really feel like much 

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of A choice in the beginning. 
But I do continue to choose to 

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stay because on I have just had 
a fabulous mentor, Leanna Dudlin

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and my. 
Team. 

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Who have helped me really expand
and deepen my design practice. 

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And then, too, I do believe that
government services and programs

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are important mechanisms that 
can increase access, build 

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equity, and invite more 
meaningful participation from 

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the people it's actually meant 
to serve. 

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That's great. 
I actually know Liana as well. 

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I did some civic design for New 
York City when I was living 

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there previously, and the city 
of Philadelphia invited us to 

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give a talk in Philly to share 
some of our learnings and stuff 

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like that. 
So it's a, it's a small world 

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for our listeners who are maybe 
unfamiliar with civic design. 

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Do you have a definition for 
what you all do? 

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Yeah, I, I always like what I do
is like service design and like 

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the slightly nuanced definition 
or term is participatory service

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design. 
You know, service designers just

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design public services. 
And the way that we do it is in 

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collaboration with the people 
who are most impacted by those 

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public services. 
And so, you know, thinking 

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about, you know, everything from
how someone knows about the 

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service, their actual experience
through the service, and then 

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even beyond. 
So that's kind of like the focus

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of what I do at the city. 
Yeah, We'll have a chance to 

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dive into some specific examples
later, but just for our 

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listeners who are still trying 
to understand what civic design 

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is like, for example, when I was
working with New York City, it 

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was like a service that helped 
New Yorkers get access to 

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financial counseling or find a 
place to get their taxes done 

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for free. 
So it was like literally like 

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anything that you're like, any 
service that you're receiving as

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a resident from your city or 
from your state or federal 

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government is designed by 
someone. 

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Yeah, Zoo Down has this really 
great. 

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It's very simple. 
You know, they say a service is 

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something that helps someone do 
something or achieve a goal. 

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And so your goal could be 
literally like opening a bank 

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account, getting your license, 
or even, you know, going to a 

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coffee shop and buying coffee. 
Totally, and we often don't 

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notice them unless there's 
something wrong. 

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I feel like everyone becomes 
like a service designer in their

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head when they're at the the 
airport security line and things

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are not going well, you know, 
and it's like, oh, how could 

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this be better? 
How could this be more efficient

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as you're like waiting for your 
to get scanned and everything? 

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Yeah, that's a good point for 
sure, Delica. 

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I love hearing your inspiration 
of where you, you know, came 

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from and how you changed your 
mind throughout your, your 

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journey and how you know, the 
volunteering experience you had 

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kind of shifted your, your 
journey for a different path. 

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That's very, very interesting. 
Well, we all know that civic 

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design field at the moment is 
going through a, a moment of 

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crisis. 
And I'm wondering if you can 

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share a little bit with us what 
lesson you've you've been taught

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about navigating uncertain times
like we're living nowadays? 

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Yeah, It's been devastating to 
see just, you know, the 

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systematic destruction of a lot 
of public institutions in the 

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US, especially I think in the 
name of innovation and 

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efficiency. 
And more recently, I've 

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experienced first hand that lack
of certainty and stability a new

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administration can bring. 
We went through a mayoral 

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administration change at the 
local level in Philadelphia last

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year. 
But I do, I do think as 

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designers, we're equipped to 
move through some level of 

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uncertainty. 
If you think about the design 

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process, it sets you up to frame
and reframe the problem, 

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understand and make sense of our
experiences. 

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We're also very capable to 
imagine and actualize solutions.

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And then I think most 
importantly, be in relationship 

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with people. 
But I think on a personal level,

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it's been easier for me to 
navigate uncertainty when I've 

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been able to better define my 
role as a designer and then what

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is within and beyond my control 
and my scope of practice. 

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So that's something I always 
come back to when things, you 

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know, feel ambiguous or 
uncertain. 

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It's like re centering on like 
my scope of practice and 

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control. 
Yeah, We've talked about a 

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little bit like giving some 
examples and defining civic 

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design, but are there any 
misconceptions that people have 

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in your work? 
Because you probably work with a

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wide swath of both the general 
public, but also other public 

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servants, right, who may not be 
as familiar with design. 

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So yeah, what are some of the 
things that come up? 

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I yeah, you know, I'm a civic 
service designer, but I'm also a

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public servant, which means that
my ultimate responsibility is 

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towards the residents of 
Philadelphia, but then also to 

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be in solidarity with my 
colleagues who are delivering 

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often life essential services 
and programs. 

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And I know there's this 
perception of government 

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employees who aren't interested 
in their jobs or don't want to 

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change or disengaged, but the 
from like the people I've worked

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with, more often than not, it's 
that the folks who are directly 

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serving residents aren't 
supported. 

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They aren't invested in their 
roles. 

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And we're all operating in this 
institution of government. 

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And changing historic 
bureaucratic systems is not an 

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easy feat. 
And you know, when you think of 

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the bureaucracy, it's not just 
people, it's processes, rules, 

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policies, systems, all of these 
things are at play. 

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And So what I think that I do 
and what my team does at the 

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city is stewarding change 
service design helps you step 

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back and see all of these 
interconnected pieces, peel back

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the different layers of an 
ecosystem and then pull on 

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different levers that'll allow 
us to enable change at like 

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different levels of this system.
Just to give you like, an 

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example, you know, I can 
redesign a form to be more 

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accessible for, say, people who 
speak different languages other 

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than English. 
But that form doesn't exist in a

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vacuum. 
It's part of like a larger 

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ecosystem of interactions. 
And so outside of the usability 

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of that form to residents, we 
also think about like how will 

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this new form be integrated into
the larger service? 

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How do we ensure staff have the 
ability to collect the 

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information they need and then 
maintain or update these forms 

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over time? 
What policies dictate what is 

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actually on the form and do 
those need to change? 

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What operations and 
infrastructure help sustain 

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language access? 
So budgets for translation or 

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interpretation, hiring 
multilingual staff members who 

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can maybe support someone to 
fill out a form. 

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So these are like all of the 
things that, you know, you have 

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to consider and then try to like
change in order to make sure 

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what you're designing actually 
is integrated and it's 

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sustainable. 
Very cool. 

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And now that you're speaking 
about designing for not only 

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like as the example you brought 
the form itself, but the context

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where this form is placed. 
I see that you, you mentioned 

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that you've lived in many cities
around the world. 

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And I'm curious to hear what 
aspects of this, let's say 

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transnational experience that 
you have had helps you to think 

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systemically and supports your 
approach to civic design. 

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Yes, one of the biggest things 
is understanding that context 

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and nuance. 
Like you mentioned, I lived 

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across many different, you know,
Indian subcultures and now in 

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the US and it's given me the 
ability to hold multiple ways of

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being and showing up and then 
navigating these nuances with 

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empathy and compassion. 
Sometimes I find like the best 

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own, you know, view of Indian 
culture. 

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It's just like a little window 
and they're much larger, richer 

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picture or tapestry that is 
Indian culture, which is like 

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far from monolithic. 
Growing up in India, you know, 

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you're surrounded by multiple 
cultures, beliefs, rituals, 

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practices, realities, and they 
all exist at the same time. 

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I won't say they're, you know, 
always in peaceful harmony, but 

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that's another conversation. 
But it is a very accepted and 

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sometimes celebrated fact. 
We know that colonialism forces 

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us to put people into, you know,
neatly defined boxes and labels.

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But we know that people are far 
more complex and who we are 

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evolves and changes depending on
the context and with time. 

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So again, as like designers and 
like civic designers who 

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sometimes work with or within 
institutions, like government 

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that also likes putting people 
in boxes and designing 

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one-size-fits-all approaches. 
I think the question is, how do 

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we resist flattening people's 
experiences and like, how can we

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account for some of these 
different ways that people show 

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up? 
Yeah. 

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You're starting to bring up a 
lot of these issues and 

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challenges that are related to 
the next question. 

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But just to help synthesize a 
little bit of what we've been 

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talking about, what you've been 
sharing so far is it sounds like

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there's, there's the scale 
issue, right? 

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Because when you're designing 
public services, there's greater

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need for accessibility compared 
to say like a consumer product 

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or service because you have to 
serve all of the residents, as 

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many people as you can right, in
a city. 

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And then you also have these 
issues of it's not like a tech 

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startup where you can start with
a blank slate, right? 

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You're often working within an 
existing system, even when it's 

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a new service, you're dealing 
with bureaucracy or just like 

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political issues, whether it 
comes to funding or, or things 

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like that, right? 
And so, you know, considering 

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this need for scale and some of 
the constraints or 

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characteristics of designing 
within a government and the need

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for for quality and reliability 
as well, right? 

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How do you approach testing and 
iterating something when you're 

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prototyping? 
Can you share an example of a 

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past project and how you've 
prototyped it and rolled it out 

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to the public? 
Yeah, I was actually recently at

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a conference by Code for America
where one of the keynote 

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speakers was Jose Andres, who is
a chef and a humanitarian. 

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And he actually talked about 
breaking down the problem into 

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bite sized chunks. 
And so he gave this example of 

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serving 16 people who come in 
together at his restaurant. 

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If he seated them at a table for
16, everything is going to take 

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longer from like taking the 
order to preparing the food to 

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getting their checks. 
But if you seat them at 4 tables

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or four people each, then it's 
like much easier and the service

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is quicker. 
And so it's like building on 

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like that same analogy for 
service improvements that we 

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want to make. 
Overhauling an entire process or

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technology is difficult and it's
time consuming. 

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So what does it look like to 
make incremental improvements 

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that get us to the larger goal 
in smaller trunks? 

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00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,080
One of my first projects at the 
city was with the Office of 

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Homeless Services and the 
overall focus, our goal of that 

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project was to make their intake
service more trauma informed. 

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Now like I mentioned, our 
services made-up of many layers 

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and moving pieces. 
And so we broke down all of our 

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improvements into four projects 
that focused on different layers

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of a service. 
So we had people and process 

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information and physical space. 
Each of those projects had a 

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range of ideas and improvements 
from more immediate solutions, 

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interim solutions and then more 
long term initiatives and 

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efforts. 
All of those together got us 

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closer to making the service 
more trauma informed, so you 

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00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,440
know, it becomes easier to test 
new signage in a space before 

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00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,280
embarking on a larger 
renovation, which for that 

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00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,360
project did eventually happen, 
but it took a lot of time and 

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resources to get there. 
Yeah, like on the time scale 

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part of things like how do you 
look at success when something 

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is longer term or at a more 
intangible service, Right. 

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00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,160
It's not, it's maybe different 
from like it's a week long 

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00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,120
Sprint and you can push new 
software to a consumer app or 

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something like that. 
But when you're dealing with a 

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public service that, you know, 
you have to see people using and

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observing and prototyping over a
longer time horizon. 

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00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,080
Can you talk about that? 
I think I kind of take the same 

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00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,480
approach. 
It's like breaking it down into 

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more measurable things. 
Success in the short term might 

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look like people using the 
service have access to clear 

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informational materials, 
physical materials and digital 

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00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,960
materials. 
But a longer term initiative is 

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that any content related to the 
service meets the highest 

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00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,880
standards of accessibility, 
trauma and from language, 

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00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,880
whatever it is that like takes 
time to make sure things the the

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00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,560
entire service meets those those
goals and the standards that 

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we're setting. 
So yeah, I feel like I would 

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take the same approach. 
But you're right, like measuring

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00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,400
long term change is really 
difficult and it does feel 

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intangible. 
I've worked on some projects 

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where our partners came back to 
us after a few months to pretty 

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00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,280
much, you know, a few years 
singing. 

283
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,520
Oh, we were finally able to 
implement this thing that we 

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00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,720
worked with you on our project. 
So there's just been like 

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00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,560
different layers of change. 
And I think things like mindsets

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00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,640
and perceptions are the toughest
to change. 

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00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,560
But I think I've also made my 
peace with, you know, my role 

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00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,360
here is to so the seeds are like
lay the foundation for something

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00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:39,760
that I may not see in my time at
the city. 

290
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,120
And I think I'm OK with that 
because ultimately what I'm here

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00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:48,520
to do is I am not interested in 
like shiny, you know, little 

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00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:49,760
things. 
Those are nice. 

293
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,160
But I do want to be able to 
leave long term change. 

294
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,800
And that just requires like for 
you to go deep into the layers 

295
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,360
of these institutions and 
systems. 

296
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,760
Totally. 
And I remember when I was doing 

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00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,160
this kind of work in New York 
that the documentation of design

298
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,600
concepts was really important. 
So it's like even if we could 

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00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,560
only choose, you know, two or 
three to implement within the 

300
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,640
two years of our project scope, 
like our counterparts who are 

301
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,520
going to be there longer, you 
know, in house in these agencies

302
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,400
would have the idea. 
So they could implement them 

303
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,880
with partners in the future or 
in house in the future. 

304
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,920
But yeah, that documentation, 
because it takes longer to 

305
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,120
implement, I think it's great 
for them to have that as well. 

306
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,720
You know, becomes even more 
important to document. 

307
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,520
Yeah. 
And it's also you think about 

308
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,400
the infrastructure to be able to
continue this. 

309
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,240
So one of the projects, I wasn't
fully involved in it, but, you 

310
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,040
know, we were trying to figure 
out how we pay residents to 

311
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,920
participate in all of the 
engagements that we want. 

312
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,560
And the city did not have any 
kind of consistent mechanism to 

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00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,400
pay people. 
And so we went through all these

314
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,320
different processes to figure 
out how to pay people. 

315
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800
But then through that project, 
the team actually was able to 

316
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,200
set up a resident engagement 
fund. 

317
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,120
And now there's actually a 
committee and like there's 

318
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,360
actual like, I don't know, 
infrastructure to be for all 

319
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,840
departments now to tap into this
engagement fund to be able to 

320
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,760
use it for some of their 
engagement efforts. 

321
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,520
So that's like another example 
of like what I mean when I say 

322
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,080
to build the infrastructure and 
the conditions for this work. 

323
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,440
These examples are great. 
And I think the example that you

324
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,440
just brought about the 
participants engagement fund, 

325
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,440
it's such a powerful way to 
actually give agency to other 

326
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,000
programs and projects to 
actually invite more the 

327
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,040
population to participate and 
share their opinions, right? 

328
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,360
So it's even more powerful, I 
would say very, very 

329
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,280
interesting. 
Also wanted to hear from you if 

330
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,120
you could redesign. 
A process or a service that 

331
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:06,800
exists either in Philly or in 
the in the national level that 

332
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,280
you already know. 
What would it be and how would 

333
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,400
you reimagine this service? 
Yeah, outside of the immigration

334
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,360
experience for me, I feel like 
the DMB experience was probably 

335
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:22,360
one of my first interactions at 
the government service in the US

336
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,400
And I feel like one of my 
guiding questions for this or 

337
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,600
honestly any government service 
would be how can we make this 

338
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,080
experience more human? 
I remember the first time I went

339
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,440
to the DMV, it's called PennDOT 
in Pennsylvania. 

340
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,880
They, I was told that, you know,
they couldn't give me the ID 

341
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,880
because I didn't have this visa 
stamp in my passport. 

342
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,280
It's just like on their 
checklist of documents. 

343
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,120
So, you know, I go through the 
story I tell them, you know, I 

344
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,920
was actually recently mugged and
my passport and all 

345
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,920
documentation was stolen. 
So while I have now acquired a 

346
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,320
new blank passport and have all 
of the documentation in my 

347
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,200
digital drive, I asked them can 
you consider the circumstance 

348
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,280
and still issue me an ID because
I still do have all of the 

349
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,920
documentation. 
And the answer was no, because 

350
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,720
their checklist of documents 
says the stamp has to be in your

351
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,440
password. 
It cannot be digital. 

352
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,080
And so I think about that a lot 
because like, what would have 

353
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,000
that experience look like if it 
was a little more human, had 

354
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,120
they chosen to acknowledge a 
traumatic experience, offered me

355
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,760
a little bit of flexibility in 
what documentation they would 

356
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,640
accept, or at least given me 
some guidance or next steps and 

357
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,760
like how I could resolve this 
issue. 

358
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,680
So I don't know. 
I feel like that's my guiding 

359
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,600
question for most government 
services. 

360
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,800
How can we embed some humanity 
in how how we operate and 

361
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,000
function? 
Yeah, I think it's helpful to go

362
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,640
back to these core principles 
behind the why because there's 

363
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,240
so much in the weeds, you know, 
of dealing with implementation 

364
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,640
and testing and research right 
in in the complex system that is

365
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,480
a city or any sort of civic 
design space. 

366
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240
I wanted to connect now to the 
theme of the season. 

367
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,640
So we are exploring design and 
performance. 

368
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,440
Performance we define however 
you want to look at it. 

369
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,520
We've had people talk about say,
you know, the financial 

370
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,320
performance of a company or the 
performance of a prototype or a 

371
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,160
task to like what we think 
about. 

372
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,840
Like I just sang a choir concert
over the weekend. 

373
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,840
So that kind of on stage 
performance. 

374
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,760
But you know, you have a 
background as a film maker as 

375
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,440
well. 
You kind of think about. 

376
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,080
Yeah, services are performed or 
the people delivering those 

377
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,120
services, but there's kind of a 
a choreography for the people 

378
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,920
using the services as well. 
So I guess this is just an open,

379
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,240
open-ended invitation to reflect
on the theme however you want to

380
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,440
take it, and wherever you want 
to go with it. 

381
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,720
Yes, I actually feel very 
aligned and some of the things 

382
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,000
you are sharing in addition to 
design, I'm also going to draw 

383
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,320
from my training in classical 
Indian dance as a kid. 

384
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,920
I did over like 10 years of 
that. 

385
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,840
So literally thinking of it as a
performance, you know? 

386
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,040
Yeah, When you think of 
services, they are a complex, 

387
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,040
like you said, leash on a 
choreography of people, 

388
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:27,240
processes, technology, but then 
also stories and imagination and

389
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,120
expression and creation and the 
act of designing. 

390
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,720
I think whether it's a service, 
whether it's an animated film, 

391
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,840
whatever, the medium to me is a 
team effort. 

392
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,920
It's people working together in 
collaboration to create and 

393
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,760
deliver this performance. 
And so that's kind of how, yeah,

394
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,240
I kind of love this question it.
I do think it's kind of like an 

395
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,360
actual performance. 
Totally. 

396
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,120
Yeah, I'm thinking about it in 
terms of especially as a 

397
00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:58,880
designer, right? 
You can think about like the 

398
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,840
staging or the props and think 
about that as a metaphor, right?

399
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,800
Because we're designing 
artifacts or wayfinding and 

400
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,640
things that help as well as like
the actual maybe scripts if 

401
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,840
we're thinking about like 
consumer services or something, 

402
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,800
right? 
It's like, what are the, the 

403
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,960
scripts that are a waiter uses 
to greet you in a restaurant or 

404
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,120
an airline or whatever that is, 
right? 

405
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,720
And we noticed the difference as
consumers. 

406
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,240
And certainly we can apply the 
same principles to public 

407
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,080
services as well. 
And thinking about the backstage

408
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,480
as well, right, Like so 
everything that is on stage that

409
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,040
the population sees, but often 
times we don't know what's 

410
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,200
happening in the backstage. 
So it's also interesting to 

411
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480
think about that metaphor when 
it comes to performance. 

412
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,200
Yeah, it's, you know, like I 
said, it's a team effort. 

413
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,520
It's not like one person going 
up on stage and doing their 

414
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,880
thing. 
It's like an intentional, like 

415
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,800
bringing together and 
collaboration of all of the 

416
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,000
people who have a role to play 
in this, in this performance. 

417
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,200
Yeah, very cool. 
Very corn dude. 

418
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,400
Still speaking about the theme. 
So design and performance. 

419
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,520
Can you share a project that 
somehow shifted your perspective

420
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:14,000
of what the role of design and 
performance can have in in your 

421
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,120
daily career and your practice? 
Yeah, I'll go back to the 

422
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:22,600
homeless services project that I
mentioned because it really 

423
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,080
formed my perspective on 
participatory service design. 

424
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,800
We work with over 200 people 
over 2 years, ranging from 

425
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,840
people experiencing 
homelessness, staff who support 

426
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,240
them, outreach workers, shelter 
sites, after hours centers, so 

427
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,400
many different people who are 
involved in delivering this, you

428
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600
know, homeless intake and 
shelter service for our 

429
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,920
residents. 
At the time, it was my mentor 

430
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,960
Rihanna and I who spent months 
in the field. 

431
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,760
We spent months collecting data.
We did a lot of synthesis and 

432
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040
ideation with the people who we 
collected data from. 

433
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,760
We spent months designing and 
testing and implementing and at 

434
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,720
the end of it Co created a lot 
of processes, tools, implemented

435
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,000
a range of improvements. 
And again like I said, none of 

436
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,080
that was the work of two loan 
service designers. 

437
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:26,240
It was working in close 
collaboration with the people 

438
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,040
who were actually impacted by 
that service. 

439
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:35,440
And so to me, that is the 
fundamental foundation I think 

440
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,360
of how I think about service 
design in the public sector. 

441
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,480
Very kinded. 
So we've talked a little bit 

442
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,200
already about like testing and 
prototyping, but what about like

443
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,640
failures? 
Have there been any like 

444
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,160
meaningful failures or 
unexpected outcomes, maybe as a 

445
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,760
more a broader kind of 
definition? 

446
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,880
And what did it teach you about 
design and performance? 

447
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,960
I think how you work is just as 
important as what you design or 

448
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,040
the outcome of of your work. 
We often say you can't get the 

449
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,680
equitable outcomes if how you 
got there or the process that 

450
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,920
you took wasn't equitable. 
And so again, just like 

451
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,360
collaborative design and 
decision making is essential 

452
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,160
because if you leave people who 
are most impacted out of that 

453
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,720
design and decision making 
process, that is a failure of 

454
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,280
good design, especially in the 
civic context. 

455
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,720
And it seems so simple, but it's
actually really tough to 

456
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,920
implement in, again, 
institutions that don't seem to 

457
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440
operate that way. 
Going back to that homeless 

458
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,440
services project, typically, you
know, you have your design 

459
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,360
process and the double diamond 
designers go out, do research, 

460
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,440
they come back and synthesize 
and come up with these iffy 

461
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,320
insights and opportunity areas. 
But through what we were hearing

462
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,600
from the conversations that we 
were having, especially with the

463
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:10,440
city staff who again, like I 
said, often are over research 

464
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,320
under supported, not invested in
they, there was a lot of initial

465
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,720
hostility with like, why are you
here? 

466
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,400
Are you going to come and tell 
me I'm not doing a good job? 

467
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,240
And so it was really important 
for us to actually open up the 

468
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,840
research and synthesis process. 
So collect, we organize what we 

469
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,200
heard, but we went back to the 
same staff that we spoke with 

470
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,040
initially and just shared back 
really high level, synthesize 

471
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,440
insights saying, hey, this is 
what we heard. 

472
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,960
Is this correct? 
What do you think? 

473
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,800
We invited them into like the 
sense making process and there 

474
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,120
was some folks who were like, I 
don't think that's how you 

475
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,000
should interpret it or like, let
me tell you more about this 

476
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,040
other thing. 
And so doing that consistently 

477
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,000
and repeatedly throughout the 
design process at the end of 

478
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,840
that two year project, like the 
same staff members would be 

479
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,480
excited to see us, you know, 
show up at their intake site and

480
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,560
they'd be like, oh, let me tell 
you about this thing. 

481
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,600
And like that helped us build a 
lot of trust, like going back to

482
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,400
people consistently throughout 
the design process. 

483
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,440
Yeah, that's a really great 
point. 

484
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,560
You know, especially because 
there's so much interpretation 

485
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,680
that happens from research 
insights. 

486
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,720
And so it's like often it's like
even if we've done our user 

487
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,360
research and talk to people and 
observed people, it's just like,

488
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,480
what does it mean? 
And that bringing in those 

489
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,400
people for the sense making as 
well. 

490
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320
So it's not just the designers 
from our point of view doing 

491
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,320
that. 
I think it's so important, 

492
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,120
especially in a civic design 
context. 

493
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,240
Also because often times folks 
who are the researchers are so 

494
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,000
used to the topic and having 
some specific expectations of 

495
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,920
all the results and so on. 
So bringing new folks to the 

496
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,640
table actually helps us to open 
up and bring some fresh, fresh 

497
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,960
eyes to the to the project or to
to the problem that you're 

498
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,760
trying to tackle. 
Yeah. 

499
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Yeah, it's when you think of 
synthesis do it's like, you 

500
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,920
know, designers choose what 
insights are prioritized. 

501
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,200
So like what quotes get shown on
a slide? 

502
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,560
And doing synthesis 
collaboratively is just like 

503
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,120
trying to shift some of that 
power back and say, what do you 

504
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,280
think is important and what do 
you think should make it to say 

505
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,760
a big report or a presentation 
to decision makers. 

506
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,800
And so, yeah, doing that at like
every step of the process, it's 

507
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,360
important. 
Awesome. 

508
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,800
Very. 
Yeah, very cool. 

509
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,600
Now I'm also curious to hear 
where do you go for inspiration?

510
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:50,440
So how do you keep yourself, you
know, up to date or you know, 

511
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,440
feeling more innovative in your 
field? 

512
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,720
Yeah, I I do a lot of different 
things, but I think I always try

513
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,280
to find my way back to some kind
of creative activity. 

514
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,600
I just find it nourishing to, 
you know, learn a new like I 

515
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,880
did, you know, ceramics and 
wheel throwing. 

516
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,560
I learned screen printing the 
last year or like large making. 

517
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,680
So that's usually like my 
primary go do. 

518
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,160
And then I also consume a lot of
science fiction books or TVI 

519
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,640
really enjoy world building and 
seeing how characters and 

520
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,600
society function and like these 
new alternate realities. 

521
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,320
So those are some of the things 
that I enjoy. 

522
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,440
And then like I was telling you 
earlier, it's probably cliche, 

523
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,360
but I have two dogs and they 
have taught me many lessons in 

524
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,320
patience and compassion, but 
really most importantly, 

525
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,560
communication, especially 
through my body language, my 

526
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,400
actions and how I show up. 
And so these are all things that

527
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,160
I, you know, used in my work and
just like in life itself. 

528
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,520
Since you started sharing, do 
you have any recommendation of a

529
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,400
book or a movie or any type of 
media that you want to share 

530
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,440
with our listeners? 
Yeah, this isn't a new book, but

531
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,160
I always recommend Braiding 
Sweetgrass to It's a book by 

532
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,680
Robin Malkammer and I recommend 
it to everyone from doctors to 

533
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,480
scientists to educators and 
designers. 

534
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,720
I was introduced to it by my 
colleagues at the Service Design

535
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,360
Studio, particularly Andrea Ahn,
who talks about it beautifully. 

536
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,520
I feel like someone, you know, 
anyone who reads it has 

537
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,240
something to take away from it. 
What I I appreciate about that 

538
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,000
book is just the themes of 
interconnectedness and 

539
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,840
reciprocity, which just again, 
feel really important to 

540
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,160
recenter and hold on to, 
especially today and right now. 

541
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,560
So. 
I'll second that as well. 

542
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,160
We read that in my gardening 
class. 

543
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,000
I recently took an online 
gardening class here in Rhode 

544
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,920
Island and that was on their 
like, suggested readings list. 

545
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,440
And yeah, it was, it was really 
cool. 

546
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,040
Someone who has like a Native 
American background who's also 

547
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,920
like a scientist in the in the 
Western tradition of that and 

548
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,400
how she blends those things 
together and yeah, in her own 

549
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,760
life and work was really cool. 
I also. 

550
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,840
Had to read the part of the book
this book at Parsons at my 

551
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,960
master's. 
It seems that it's very 

552
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,200
connected with. 
Yeah, there's so. 

553
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720
Many, yes. 
Yeah, I didn't know it had made 

554
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,760
the rounds into so many 
different circles. 

555
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,760
That's really cool. 
All right, well, David, we are 

556
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,360
coming to the end of our time 
together, so we'd like to invite

557
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,800
you to let our listeners know 
our viewers. 

558
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,440
If folks are watching this on 
YouTube, where can people go to 

559
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,480
learn more about you and your 
work? 

560
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,320
It could be for your job in 
Philadelphia or if you have 

561
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,920
personal stuff you want to send 
people, and we'll post links in 

562
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,760
the show notes as well, but it's
helpful for people to hear it on

563
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,120
air as well. 
Yeah, I am currently in the 

564
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,480
moment of rebuilding my online 
presence. 

565
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,080
So I think like the two main 
directions are the service 

566
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,199
design studios website. 
We have a lot of projects and 

567
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,600
case studies and then LinkedIn 
is just like the place you can 

568
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,080
find me right now to talk more. 
Wonderful. 

569
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,400
So yeah, check that out. 
We'll post that in the show 

570
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,040
notes. 
As I said, David, come in. 

571
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,480
And thank you so much for 
joining us on the AIG Design 

572
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,480
Podcast. 
Thank you for listening or 

573
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,360
watching. 
I'm Li Shan Huang on behalf of 

574
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,000
Julia and our guest, David Ka. 
We'll see you some other time. 

575
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:38,199
Take care everyone.