Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design
Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang.
I am the Co executive Director of learning and programs here at
AIGA, the professional association for design.
On this season of the AIGA Design Podcast, we are exploring
the intersection of design and performance with guests across
the design disciplines and related fields.
And now for my Co host. Hello everyone.
I'm Julia de Natalo, Design Competitions and Events Manager
at AIG. And our guest for this episode
is David KA Menon, Service Design and Delivery lead at the
City of Philadelphia. David, welcome to the show.
Thanks. For having me.
Yeah, we're really looking forward to our conversation
today, so let's just jump into it.
The first question is about your background.
You have a really interesting academic background.
You have a bachelor's degree in animation film design, and then
you ursued a master's later in social design and then now
you're working in civic design. O Can you help us connect some
of the dots on your journey, your both your educational
journey and how you got to where you are in your career?
Yes. So after my bachelor's, I worked
as a visual designer for a few years in Mumbai, did a lot of
mixed visual media with local brands, national brands,
nonprofits, media companies. And at the time, it felt to me
like the media industry was more quantity over quality.
And honestly, a lot of original thinking just wasn't prioritized
and invested in. And then I had like all of these
deeper questions about, you know, who am I actually
designing for and what is the broader impact of my work or
what it could be. And so I always knew about human
centered design, but didn't quite know how to access that
pathway or that opportunity. And it was kind of around the
same time I was volunteering at this nonprofit where I developed
interactive learning sessions for kids in shelter homes.
And I really enjoyed learning about these kids as just, you
know, human beings. And like they had so many
questions and hopes about the world.
And, you know, through like designing and facilitating those
sessions, I realized I was just using a lot of human centered
approaches to that. And so that's kind of what led
me to the social design program at MICA in Baltimore.
And then pretty much right after that, I was given this
opportunity at the city of Philadelphia and have been here
over 7 years now. And you know, sometimes people
ask me why did you choose this job or this civic design space?
And honestly, like at the time, you know, as someone whose
residency was tied to their job, it didn't really feel like much
of A choice in the beginning. But I do continue to choose to
stay because on I have just had a fabulous mentor, Leanna Dudlin
and my. Team.
Who have helped me really expand and deepen my design practice.
And then, too, I do believe that government services and programs
are important mechanisms that can increase access, build
equity, and invite more meaningful participation from
the people it's actually meant to serve.
That's great. I actually know Liana as well.
I did some civic design for New York City when I was living
there previously, and the city of Philadelphia invited us to
give a talk in Philly to share some of our learnings and stuff
like that. So it's a, it's a small world
for our listeners who are maybe unfamiliar with civic design.
Do you have a definition for what you all do?
Yeah, I, I always like what I do is like service design and like
the slightly nuanced definition or term is participatory service
design. You know, service designers just
design public services. And the way that we do it is in
collaboration with the people who are most impacted by those
public services. And so, you know, thinking
about, you know, everything from how someone knows about the
service, their actual experience through the service, and then
even beyond. So that's kind of like the focus
of what I do at the city. Yeah, We'll have a chance to
dive into some specific examples later, but just for our
listeners who are still trying to understand what civic design
is like, for example, when I was working with New York City, it
was like a service that helped New Yorkers get access to
financial counseling or find a place to get their taxes done
for free. So it was like literally like
anything that you're like, any service that you're receiving as
a resident from your city or from your state or federal
government is designed by someone.
Yeah, Zoo Down has this really great.
It's very simple. You know, they say a service is
something that helps someone do something or achieve a goal.
And so your goal could be literally like opening a bank
account, getting your license, or even, you know, going to a
coffee shop and buying coffee. Totally, and we often don't
notice them unless there's something wrong.
I feel like everyone becomes like a service designer in their
head when they're at the the airport security line and things
are not going well, you know, and it's like, oh, how could
this be better? How could this be more efficient
as you're like waiting for your to get scanned and everything?
Yeah, that's a good point for sure, Delica.
I love hearing your inspiration of where you, you know, came
from and how you changed your mind throughout your, your
journey and how you know, the volunteering experience you had
kind of shifted your, your journey for a different path.
That's very, very interesting. Well, we all know that civic
design field at the moment is going through a, a moment of
crisis. And I'm wondering if you can
share a little bit with us what lesson you've you've been taught
about navigating uncertain times like we're living nowadays?
Yeah, It's been devastating to see just, you know, the
systematic destruction of a lot of public institutions in the
US, especially I think in the name of innovation and
efficiency. And more recently, I've
experienced first hand that lack of certainty and stability a new
administration can bring. We went through a mayoral
administration change at the local level in Philadelphia last
year. But I do, I do think as
designers, we're equipped to move through some level of
uncertainty. If you think about the design
process, it sets you up to frame and reframe the problem,
understand and make sense of our experiences.
We're also very capable to imagine and actualize solutions.
And then I think most importantly, be in relationship
with people. But I think on a personal level,
it's been easier for me to navigate uncertainty when I've
been able to better define my role as a designer and then what
is within and beyond my control and my scope of practice.
So that's something I always come back to when things, you
know, feel ambiguous or uncertain.
It's like re centering on like my scope of practice and
control. Yeah, We've talked about a
little bit like giving some examples and defining civic
design, but are there any misconceptions that people have
in your work? Because you probably work with a
wide swath of both the general public, but also other public
servants, right, who may not be as familiar with design.
So yeah, what are some of the things that come up?
I yeah, you know, I'm a civic service designer, but I'm also a
public servant, which means that my ultimate responsibility is
towards the residents of Philadelphia, but then also to
be in solidarity with my colleagues who are delivering
often life essential services and programs.
And I know there's this perception of government
employees who aren't interested in their jobs or don't want to
change or disengaged, but the from like the people I've worked
with, more often than not, it's that the folks who are directly
serving residents aren't supported.
They aren't invested in their roles.
And we're all operating in this institution of government.
And changing historic bureaucratic systems is not an
easy feat. And you know, when you think of
the bureaucracy, it's not just people, it's processes, rules,
policies, systems, all of these things are at play.
And So what I think that I do and what my team does at the
city is stewarding change service design helps you step
back and see all of these interconnected pieces, peel back
the different layers of an ecosystem and then pull on
different levers that'll allow us to enable change at like
different levels of this system. Just to give you like, an
example, you know, I can redesign a form to be more
accessible for, say, people who speak different languages other
than English. But that form doesn't exist in a
vacuum. It's part of like a larger
ecosystem of interactions. And so outside of the usability
of that form to residents, we also think about like how will
this new form be integrated into the larger service?
How do we ensure staff have the ability to collect the
information they need and then maintain or update these forms
over time? What policies dictate what is
actually on the form and do those need to change?
What operations and infrastructure help sustain
language access? So budgets for translation or
interpretation, hiring multilingual staff members who
can maybe support someone to fill out a form.
So these are like all of the things that, you know, you have
to consider and then try to like change in order to make sure
what you're designing actually is integrated and it's
sustainable. Very cool.
And now that you're speaking about designing for not only
like as the example you brought the form itself, but the context
where this form is placed. I see that you, you mentioned
that you've lived in many cities around the world.
And I'm curious to hear what aspects of this, let's say
transnational experience that you have had helps you to think
systemically and supports your approach to civic design.
Yes, one of the biggest things is understanding that context
and nuance. Like you mentioned, I lived
across many different, you know, Indian subcultures and now in
the US and it's given me the ability to hold multiple ways of
being and showing up and then navigating these nuances with
empathy and compassion. Sometimes I find like the best
own, you know, view of Indian culture.
It's just like a little window and they're much larger, richer
picture or tapestry that is Indian culture, which is like
far from monolithic. Growing up in India, you know,
you're surrounded by multiple cultures, beliefs, rituals,
practices, realities, and they all exist at the same time.
I won't say they're, you know, always in peaceful harmony, but
that's another conversation. But it is a very accepted and
sometimes celebrated fact. We know that colonialism forces
us to put people into, you know, neatly defined boxes and labels.
But we know that people are far more complex and who we are
evolves and changes depending on the context and with time.
So again, as like designers and like civic designers who
sometimes work with or within institutions, like government
that also likes putting people in boxes and designing
one-size-fits-all approaches. I think the question is, how do
we resist flattening people's experiences and like, how can we
account for some of these different ways that people show
up? Yeah.
You're starting to bring up a lot of these issues and
challenges that are related to the next question.
But just to help synthesize a little bit of what we've been
talking about, what you've been sharing so far is it sounds like
there's, there's the scale issue, right?
Because when you're designing public services, there's greater
need for accessibility compared to say like a consumer product
or service because you have to serve all of the residents, as
many people as you can right, in a city.
And then you also have these issues of it's not like a tech
startup where you can start with a blank slate, right?
You're often working within an existing system, even when it's
a new service, you're dealing with bureaucracy or just like
political issues, whether it comes to funding or, or things
like that, right? And so, you know, considering
this need for scale and some of the constraints or
characteristics of designing within a government and the need
for for quality and reliability as well, right?
How do you approach testing and iterating something when you're
prototyping? Can you share an example of a
past project and how you've prototyped it and rolled it out
to the public? Yeah, I was actually recently at
a conference by Code for America where one of the keynote
speakers was Jose Andres, who is a chef and a humanitarian.
And he actually talked about breaking down the problem into
bite sized chunks. And so he gave this example of
serving 16 people who come in together at his restaurant.
If he seated them at a table for 16, everything is going to take
longer from like taking the order to preparing the food to
getting their checks. But if you seat them at 4 tables
or four people each, then it's like much easier and the service
is quicker. And so it's like building on
like that same analogy for service improvements that we
want to make. Overhauling an entire process or
technology is difficult and it's time consuming.
So what does it look like to make incremental improvements
that get us to the larger goal in smaller trunks?
One of my first projects at the city was with the Office of
Homeless Services and the overall focus, our goal of that
project was to make their intake service more trauma informed.
Now like I mentioned, our services made-up of many layers
and moving pieces. And so we broke down all of our
improvements into four projects that focused on different layers
of a service. So we had people and process
information and physical space. Each of those projects had a
range of ideas and improvements from more immediate solutions,
interim solutions and then more long term initiatives and
efforts. All of those together got us
closer to making the service more trauma informed, so you
know, it becomes easier to test new signage in a space before
embarking on a larger renovation, which for that
project did eventually happen, but it took a lot of time and
resources to get there. Yeah, like on the time scale
part of things like how do you look at success when something
is longer term or at a more intangible service, Right.
It's not, it's maybe different from like it's a week long
Sprint and you can push new software to a consumer app or
something like that. But when you're dealing with a
public service that, you know, you have to see people using and
observing and prototyping over a longer time horizon.
Can you talk about that? I think I kind of take the same
approach. It's like breaking it down into
more measurable things. Success in the short term might
look like people using the service have access to clear
informational materials, physical materials and digital
materials. But a longer term initiative is
that any content related to the service meets the highest
standards of accessibility, trauma and from language,
whatever it is that like takes time to make sure things the the
entire service meets those those goals and the standards that
we're setting. So yeah, I feel like I would
take the same approach. But you're right, like measuring
long term change is really difficult and it does feel
intangible. I've worked on some projects
where our partners came back to us after a few months to pretty
much, you know, a few years singing.
Oh, we were finally able to implement this thing that we
worked with you on our project. So there's just been like
different layers of change. And I think things like mindsets
and perceptions are the toughest to change.
But I think I've also made my peace with, you know, my role
here is to so the seeds are like lay the foundation for something
that I may not see in my time at the city.
And I think I'm OK with that because ultimately what I'm here
to do is I am not interested in like shiny, you know, little
things. Those are nice.
But I do want to be able to leave long term change.
And that just requires like for you to go deep into the layers
of these institutions and systems.
Totally. And I remember when I was doing
this kind of work in New York that the documentation of design
concepts was really important. So it's like even if we could
only choose, you know, two or three to implement within the
two years of our project scope, like our counterparts who are
going to be there longer, you know, in house in these agencies
would have the idea. So they could implement them
with partners in the future or in house in the future.
But yeah, that documentation, because it takes longer to
implement, I think it's great for them to have that as well.
You know, becomes even more important to document.
Yeah. And it's also you think about
the infrastructure to be able to continue this.
So one of the projects, I wasn't fully involved in it, but, you
know, we were trying to figure out how we pay residents to
participate in all of the engagements that we want.
And the city did not have any kind of consistent mechanism to
pay people. And so we went through all these
different processes to figure out how to pay people.
But then through that project, the team actually was able to
set up a resident engagement fund.
And now there's actually a committee and like there's
actual like, I don't know, infrastructure to be for all
departments now to tap into this engagement fund to be able to
use it for some of their engagement efforts.
So that's like another example of like what I mean when I say
to build the infrastructure and the conditions for this work.
These examples are great. And I think the example that you
just brought about the participants engagement fund,
it's such a powerful way to actually give agency to other
programs and projects to actually invite more the
population to participate and share their opinions, right?
So it's even more powerful, I would say very, very
interesting. Also wanted to hear from you if
you could redesign. A process or a service that
exists either in Philly or in the in the national level that
you already know. What would it be and how would
you reimagine this service? Yeah, outside of the immigration
experience for me, I feel like the DMB experience was probably
one of my first interactions at the government service in the US
And I feel like one of my guiding questions for this or
honestly any government service would be how can we make this
experience more human? I remember the first time I went
to the DMV, it's called PennDOT in Pennsylvania.
They, I was told that, you know, they couldn't give me the ID
because I didn't have this visa stamp in my passport.
It's just like on their checklist of documents.
So, you know, I go through the story I tell them, you know, I
was actually recently mugged and my passport and all
documentation was stolen. So while I have now acquired a
new blank passport and have all of the documentation in my
digital drive, I asked them can you consider the circumstance
and still issue me an ID because I still do have all of the
documentation. And the answer was no, because
their checklist of documents says the stamp has to be in your
password. It cannot be digital.
And so I think about that a lot because like, what would have
that experience look like if it was a little more human, had
they chosen to acknowledge a traumatic experience, offered me
a little bit of flexibility in what documentation they would
accept, or at least given me some guidance or next steps and
like how I could resolve this issue.
So I don't know. I feel like that's my guiding
question for most government services.
How can we embed some humanity in how how we operate and
function? Yeah, I think it's helpful to go
back to these core principles behind the why because there's
so much in the weeds, you know, of dealing with implementation
and testing and research right in in the complex system that is
a city or any sort of civic design space.
I wanted to connect now to the theme of the season.
So we are exploring design and performance.
Performance we define however you want to look at it.
We've had people talk about say, you know, the financial
performance of a company or the performance of a prototype or a
task to like what we think about.
Like I just sang a choir concert over the weekend.
So that kind of on stage performance.
But you know, you have a background as a film maker as
well. You kind of think about.
Yeah, services are performed or the people delivering those
services, but there's kind of a a choreography for the people
using the services as well. So I guess this is just an open,
open-ended invitation to reflect on the theme however you want to
take it, and wherever you want to go with it.
Yes, I actually feel very aligned and some of the things
you are sharing in addition to design, I'm also going to draw
from my training in classical Indian dance as a kid.
I did over like 10 years of that.
So literally thinking of it as a performance, you know?
Yeah, When you think of services, they are a complex,
like you said, leash on a choreography of people,
processes, technology, but then also stories and imagination and
expression and creation and the act of designing.
I think whether it's a service, whether it's an animated film,
whatever, the medium to me is a team effort.
It's people working together in collaboration to create and
deliver this performance. And so that's kind of how, yeah,
I kind of love this question it. I do think it's kind of like an
actual performance. Totally.
Yeah, I'm thinking about it in terms of especially as a
designer, right? You can think about like the
staging or the props and think about that as a metaphor, right?
Because we're designing artifacts or wayfinding and
things that help as well as like the actual maybe scripts if
we're thinking about like consumer services or something,
right? It's like, what are the, the
scripts that are a waiter uses to greet you in a restaurant or
an airline or whatever that is, right?
And we noticed the difference as consumers.
And certainly we can apply the same principles to public
services as well. And thinking about the backstage
as well, right, Like so everything that is on stage that
the population sees, but often times we don't know what's
happening in the backstage. So it's also interesting to
think about that metaphor when it comes to performance.
Yeah, it's, you know, like I said, it's a team effort.
It's not like one person going up on stage and doing their
thing. It's like an intentional, like
bringing together and collaboration of all of the
people who have a role to play in this, in this performance.
Yeah, very cool. Very corn dude.
Still speaking about the theme. So design and performance.
Can you share a project that somehow shifted your perspective
of what the role of design and performance can have in in your
daily career and your practice? Yeah, I'll go back to the
homeless services project that I mentioned because it really
formed my perspective on participatory service design.
We work with over 200 people over 2 years, ranging from
people experiencing homelessness, staff who support
them, outreach workers, shelter sites, after hours centers, so
many different people who are involved in delivering this, you
know, homeless intake and shelter service for our
residents. At the time, it was my mentor
Rihanna and I who spent months in the field.
We spent months collecting data. We did a lot of synthesis and
ideation with the people who we collected data from.
We spent months designing and testing and implementing and at
the end of it Co created a lot of processes, tools, implemented
a range of improvements. And again like I said, none of
that was the work of two loan service designers.
It was working in close collaboration with the people
who were actually impacted by that service.
And so to me, that is the fundamental foundation I think
of how I think about service design in the public sector.
Very kinded. So we've talked a little bit
already about like testing and prototyping, but what about like
failures? Have there been any like
meaningful failures or unexpected outcomes, maybe as a
more a broader kind of definition?
And what did it teach you about design and performance?
I think how you work is just as important as what you design or
the outcome of of your work. We often say you can't get the
equitable outcomes if how you got there or the process that
you took wasn't equitable. And so again, just like
collaborative design and decision making is essential
because if you leave people who are most impacted out of that
design and decision making process, that is a failure of
good design, especially in the civic context.
And it seems so simple, but it's actually really tough to
implement in, again, institutions that don't seem to
operate that way. Going back to that homeless
services project, typically, you know, you have your design
process and the double diamond designers go out, do research,
they come back and synthesize and come up with these iffy
insights and opportunity areas. But through what we were hearing
from the conversations that we were having, especially with the
city staff who again, like I said, often are over research
under supported, not invested in they, there was a lot of initial
hostility with like, why are you here?
Are you going to come and tell me I'm not doing a good job?
And so it was really important for us to actually open up the
research and synthesis process. So collect, we organize what we
heard, but we went back to the same staff that we spoke with
initially and just shared back really high level, synthesize
insights saying, hey, this is what we heard.
Is this correct? What do you think?
We invited them into like the sense making process and there
was some folks who were like, I don't think that's how you
should interpret it or like, let me tell you more about this
other thing. And so doing that consistently
and repeatedly throughout the design process at the end of
that two year project, like the same staff members would be
excited to see us, you know, show up at their intake site and
they'd be like, oh, let me tell you about this thing.
And like that helped us build a lot of trust, like going back to
people consistently throughout the design process.
Yeah, that's a really great point.
You know, especially because there's so much interpretation
that happens from research insights.
And so it's like often it's like even if we've done our user
research and talk to people and observed people, it's just like,
what does it mean? And that bringing in those
people for the sense making as well.
So it's not just the designers from our point of view doing
that. I think it's so important,
especially in a civic design context.
Also because often times folks who are the researchers are so
used to the topic and having some specific expectations of
all the results and so on. So bringing new folks to the
table actually helps us to open up and bring some fresh, fresh
eyes to the to the project or to to the problem that you're
trying to tackle. Yeah.
Yeah, it's when you think of synthesis do it's like, you
know, designers choose what insights are prioritized.
So like what quotes get shown on a slide?
And doing synthesis collaboratively is just like
trying to shift some of that power back and say, what do you
think is important and what do you think should make it to say
a big report or a presentation to decision makers.
And so, yeah, doing that at like every step of the process, it's
important. Awesome.
Very. Yeah, very cool.
Now I'm also curious to hear where do you go for inspiration?
So how do you keep yourself, you know, up to date or you know,
feeling more innovative in your field?
Yeah, I I do a lot of different things, but I think I always try
to find my way back to some kind of creative activity.
I just find it nourishing to, you know, learn a new like I
did, you know, ceramics and wheel throwing.
I learned screen printing the last year or like large making.
So that's usually like my primary go do.
And then I also consume a lot of science fiction books or TVI
really enjoy world building and seeing how characters and
society function and like these new alternate realities.
So those are some of the things that I enjoy.
And then like I was telling you earlier, it's probably cliche,
but I have two dogs and they have taught me many lessons in
patience and compassion, but really most importantly,
communication, especially through my body language, my
actions and how I show up. And so these are all things that
I, you know, used in my work and just like in life itself.
Since you started sharing, do you have any recommendation of a
book or a movie or any type of media that you want to share
with our listeners? Yeah, this isn't a new book, but
I always recommend Braiding Sweetgrass to It's a book by
Robin Malkammer and I recommend it to everyone from doctors to
scientists to educators and designers.
I was introduced to it by my colleagues at the Service Design
Studio, particularly Andrea Ahn, who talks about it beautifully.
I feel like someone, you know, anyone who reads it has
something to take away from it. What I I appreciate about that
book is just the themes of interconnectedness and
reciprocity, which just again, feel really important to
recenter and hold on to, especially today and right now.
So. I'll second that as well.
We read that in my gardening class.
I recently took an online gardening class here in Rhode
Island and that was on their like, suggested readings list.
And yeah, it was, it was really cool.
Someone who has like a Native American background who's also
like a scientist in the in the Western tradition of that and
how she blends those things together and yeah, in her own
life and work was really cool. I also.
Had to read the part of the book this book at Parsons at my
master's. It seems that it's very
connected with. Yeah, there's so.
Many, yes. Yeah, I didn't know it had made
the rounds into so many different circles.
That's really cool. All right, well, David, we are
coming to the end of our time together, so we'd like to invite
you to let our listeners know our viewers.
If folks are watching this on YouTube, where can people go to
learn more about you and your work?
It could be for your job in Philadelphia or if you have
personal stuff you want to send people, and we'll post links in
the show notes as well, but it's helpful for people to hear it on
air as well. Yeah, I am currently in the
moment of rebuilding my online presence.
So I think like the two main directions are the service
design studios website. We have a lot of projects and
case studies and then LinkedIn is just like the place you can
find me right now to talk more. Wonderful.
So yeah, check that out. We'll post that in the show
notes. As I said, David, come in.
And thank you so much for joining us on the AIG Design
Podcast. Thank you for listening or
watching. I'm Li Shan Huang on behalf of
Julia and our guest, David Ka. We'll see you some other time.
Take care everyone.