1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,720 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,320 Podcast. We are now in Season 11. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,800 My name is Li Shawn Huang Co, Executive Director of Learning 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,000 and Programs here at AIGA, the professional association for 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,920 Design. Hello everyone, I'm Julia 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,800 Donatello, Design Competitions and Event Manager at AIGA. 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,960 So this season on the show, we are exploring the theme of Eyes 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,280 on design. That's also the overarching 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,440 theme of AIG as 2026 programming season, which includes this 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,080 show, which you can find wherever you get podcasts or you 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,280 can watch the video version on YouTube. 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,480 It also includes our upcoming design conference and our 13 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,840 Creatives and Residents program, which we'll hear more about as 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,400 the year goes on. This seasons theme is inspired 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,240 by the legacy of the acclaimed AIG Ion design publication, 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,120 which ran from 2015 to 2022, challenging our community to 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,519 look deeper, connect more broadly, and think further about 18 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,040 the future of design. This season we are dedicating it 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,800 to a new era of design discourse by critically analyzing the 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,040 present, bridging disciplinary divides and boldly facing the 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,000 future through these three eyes. The connecting eye. 22 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,120 Connecting design with other disciplines. 23 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,800 The critical eye, examining what we do as designers, but also 24 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,320 using design as a way to look at the world through a critical 25 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,600 eye. And then also the future eye, 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,440 looking forward at the future to see how design is shaping the 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,480 future, but also looking at how technology and other forces are 28 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,080 changing our design practice today. 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,240 So in this episode, we are pleased to welcome our guest, 30 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,560 Robin Landa, who is a distinguished professor at Keene 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,400 University and a globally recognized expert in creativity, 32 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,880 advertising and branding. And last year, Julia and I had 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,040 the opportunity to present Robin with the 2025 Steven Heller 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,600 Prize for Cultural Commentary. And Robin is also, I'm not sure 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,280 if I got the count right, but you're the author of 25 books. 36 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,919 It says 25 on your LinkedIn but I know you have some new books 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,320 coming out too. So where are we on the count 38 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,960 now? I'm not sure. 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,360 I think it's 27. OK, 27, so time to update our 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,360 profiles and we'll update that on the podcast show notes as 41 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,320 well. But thanks for joining us today, 42 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,720 Robin. It's my pleasure. 43 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,720 I'm honored. Thank you so much for inviting 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,960 me. Let's flashback to the beginning 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,120 of your journey. You started designing clothing 46 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,080 at a young age for yourself and for your Barbie dolls. 47 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,360 What inspired you to get into design? 48 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:47,880 You really do your research. I I've always loved to create. 49 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:54,560 As a child, I drew constantly landscapes, cityscapes, imagined 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,840 worlds. I sketched people. 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,680 I was utterly absorbed in creative pursuits, whether it 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,360 was art or dancing and designing. 53 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,600 But the only three-dimensional discipline that truly captivated 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,880 me was fashion. And I did cut up whatever I 55 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,000 could find in in our house, much to my mother's dismay, whether 56 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,720 it was clothing or socks or clothes to, to make fashion for 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,080 Barbie. I think I I really like the idea 58 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,440 of shaping form around the human body. 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,800 It was structural, it was storytelling, and it was 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,440 identity. Interestingly, as a child, you 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,840 know, all at once and looking back, I realized that I was 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,000 drawn to design because design builds worlds. 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,640 And I still am fascinated by world building, whether it's in 64 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,320 graphic design, digital design, film, storytelling, and whether 65 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,320 it's on paper or in fabric, film, wherever. 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,960 And honestly, I still fantasize about designing fashion one day. 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,360 Maybe when I retire. That's amazing. 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Yeah. You know, I'd love to learn more 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,280 about how you also got into writing so many books. 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,080 And we have some questions about that coming up, but maybe a good 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,240 way to book and our conversation or to frame our conversation 72 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,240 with your origin story. And maybe the most recent thing 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,120 is that you have a new book that's coming out or has come 74 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,920 out already, Branding as a Cultural Force, and then yet 75 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,200 another book coming out later this year. 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,960 But maybe let's start with Branding as a Cultural force. 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Can you give our listeners a little teaser about that book 78 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:32,080 and how it's filling a gap, maybe compared to some of the 79 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,600 other writing that you've done? You know, branding is a cultural 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,840 force argues that brands aren't just commercial entities 81 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:42,160 anymore. They're cultural actors. 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,960 They shape values, they influence behavior, they 83 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,320 construct culture. For decades, branding was about 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,160 differentiation and positioning, and those attributes still 85 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,040 matter. But it, it's really, the 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,320 conversation has changed and we're now in a moment where the 87 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,600 brand's impact on our planet, on public discourse, on equity, on 88 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,880 inclusion, that's not peripheral, that's central. 89 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,880 And so in this book, I'm asking a bigger question and how do you 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,480 design branding? Although I kind of answer that 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,960 too, but I'm asking what is a brand responsible for once it 92 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,240 has power? How can they use that power 93 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,000 ethically? How can they give back to 94 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,240 culture? That's just the culture that 95 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,360 sustains them. And here's the practical 96 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,880 reality. Brands spend an enormous amount 97 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,280 of money. Yeah. 98 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,120 On advertising, on content, on experiences. 99 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:47,680 So the question becomes, why not direct some of that investment 100 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,800 back into the communities and the culture that sustained them? 101 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:58,160 So I interviewed, forgive my French, Gaetong du Pelu, who is 102 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,920 the chief creative officer of Marcel Agency in Paris. 103 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,240 And he put it this way. With power comes rights and 104 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,960 responsibilities. Brands have earned the right to 105 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,440 participate in culture. We gave them that right, but 106 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,080 that comes with a responsibility to positively contribute to it, 107 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,600 not just extract from it. And the book is grounded in real 108 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,200 examples. Brands that are doing well, 109 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,200 brands that are doing this. I'm looking at how storytelling, 110 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,080 visual identity and advertising can move from persuasion to 111 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:40,040 participation and act actively, build something in the 112 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,880 communities that they serve. So the shift in scale is from 113 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,560 really from transaction to participate, participation from 114 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,720 extraction to contribution. That's what makes the book 115 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 different. Yeah, thank you for sharing that 116 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,600 big picture. It just reminds me of like early 117 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,680 in my career, I worked at a creative agency in New York and 118 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,840 one of the first accounts I got to work on was with Dove and on 119 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,640 their True Beauty campaign, which has been going on for for 120 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,040 decades now. And, you know, we just played 121 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,360 one small part in that. But just like, you know, for me, 122 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,240 that's the immediate example that comes to mind of like a 123 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,960 brand that is literally selling soap but is also trying to shift 124 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,080 the conversations around beauty standards and all of that. 125 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,720 And yeah, just very tangible in that sense, right? 126 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,640 It's like more than just the product itself. 127 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,320 It's really like trying to tell a story and shift the culture in 128 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,600 that sense. Exactly, exactly. 129 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,760 They do. They did some social listening 130 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,080 and and I I think Lee Sean, you're exactly right. 131 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,000 They they shifted the conversation. 132 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,800 And I remember that when this campaign came out, it was very 133 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,520 much like only them starting this conversation. 134 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,120 So it was like they were able to very much be the leaders of this 135 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,480 conversation at that time and still building the the branding 136 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,760 on, on, on those principles, which is great. 137 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,400 Yeah. You're right, Julia. 138 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,560 They, they actually took a risk that that paid off tremendously 139 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,160 for them, for the category. They they, they really were risk 140 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,360 takers and Mavericks in that sense and and did a good thing. 141 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Yeah, that's awesome. So Robin, you just updated us 142 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,920 that now 27 books written so far, which is incredible. 143 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,080 And we know that Carnegie Foundation named you as one of 144 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,720 the great teachers of our time and you shaped generations of 145 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,200 design designers through your work so far. 146 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,799 So I wanted to hear a little bit from you. 147 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,440 How did the writing become an an important aspect of your 148 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,200 practice? What was, you know, the spark 149 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,200 when you started writing? And also, if you have a specific 150 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,680 creative process that you follow when you start writing a new 151 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:57,680 book And when you look back, if you think about your very first 152 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,640 book, which now, if you can remind us which one was your 153 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,880 first book, how, how do you feel like you you've evolved since 154 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,520 the first book to now? I'm going to be very practical 155 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,720 in my answer at the start. Writing in the beginning was a 156 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,880 practical reason, a way to get promoted. 157 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,080 So I'm an academic and, and, and design is a relatively new 158 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,400 discipline in academia. The people, the faculty who sit 159 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,520 on committees, the administrators don't really 160 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,520 understand it that well. You have to constantly explain 161 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,720 what you do. But they know what a book is, 162 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,880 they know what a journal article is, right? 163 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,240 And so rather than trying to explain why this design that I 164 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,160 did was in an exhibit or why this design that I did won an 165 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,520 award, it was much easier to just say, well, here's this book 166 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,280 that I wrote and that that was a path to promotion for me. 167 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:59,920 And, and I do like to write it. It's an extension I saw in the 168 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:01,440 beginning. There's an extension of my 169 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,240 teaching of something that I wanted to like. 170 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:06,960 How do I explain this to students? 171 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,200 What how do I get them to know what I know? 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,360 How do I get them to love what I love? 173 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,320 And and so in the beginning, it was an extension of that. 174 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,880 So I began be building, began be building frameworks on the page. 175 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,920 But I, I went through, I don't think anybody knows this. 176 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,520 So that I went through an experimental program in New York 177 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,920 City public schools for gifted children and they decided that 178 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,640 they didn't need to teach you how to write. 179 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,040 Yeah, they, it was, it was do your own thing. 180 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,880 And so I went through all these programs for the gifted in 181 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,360 middle school. And but I was I got out, I was 182 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,280 in college at 16 and still didn't know how to write. 183 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,720 And so by the time I got to Graduate School, I was starting 184 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,920 to teach myself how to write. And you ask about my first book, 185 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,360 which is called an Introduction to design. 186 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,120 It was about two-dimensional design. 187 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,800 I, I, I, I, I cringe. I mean, it was. 188 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,320 I was basically trying to contribute something that I 189 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,360 loved about design. But what started out as a 190 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,960 necessity became an identity. That's beautiful. 191 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,080 I love that. So you're basically taught 192 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,640 yourself how to write and also fell in love with that, right? 193 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,640 So it's part of who you are. Yeah, it became part of I love 194 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,400 making, I love creating. And so it became. 195 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,760 Besides art and design and dancing, writing became part of 196 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:48,440 that skill set. I'm going to use this 197 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,920 opportunity to actually ask a personal question for myself on 198 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,760 this is like, does it get easier? 199 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,160 I mean, I know you've done like 27 books now. 200 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,080 Is it still like, you know, when you're starting the blank page 201 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,960 for the draft of a new book, is it still like, wow, this is like 202 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,200 you're starting a marathon? Or is it just like, OK, after, 203 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,080 you know, a dozen or so, you're like, OK, like, you know that 204 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,440 the drill. That's a great question because 205 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,320 my co-author Megan D who I'm working with kind of asked a 206 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,000 similar question and yeah, it's that it's the 10,000 hour 207 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:28,160 Malcolm Gladwell theory, right? And once I I taught myself to 208 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,960 write better, it became easier. Once I realized that you really 209 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,640 have to write, act in the active voice, avoid the passive voice. 210 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,280 That made it easier. And I absolutely don't wait for 211 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,440 inspiration. I don't know, you know, I mean, 212 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,360 you're both too, I hate to say this, you're both too young to 213 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,400 to know the the idea of thinking with a pencil in your hand. 214 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:52,960 Now it's a stylus or whatever. I'm. 215 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:56,520 Old enough that they taught me cursive. 216 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,880 OK, OK, so, but thinking with a pencil in your hand, it's it's 217 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,840 kind of what I do with writing. I'm I'm thinking as I'm going, 218 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,920 It's in the process. So I'm not waiting. 219 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,880 I'm doing and I forgot who said it. 220 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,160 There's no design, there's only redesign, there's no writing, 221 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,520 there's only rewriting. So you know you have to go back. 222 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,640 So I just do it. But I love it now. 223 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:22,840 I didn't love it. Now I love it. 224 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,440 And is the pencil for you like literal or metaphorical? 225 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,480 Like are you starting your first? 226 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Drafts, but OK. No, now you're tight. 227 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,160 Yeah. And actually, a neuroscientist 228 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,560 told me that your hands take up so much part of your brain that 229 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:43,120 it actually helps you think when you're typing or or writing 230 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,200 rather than just using. Yeah, that's a great way to 231 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,800 frame that, you know, because I'm also a musician. 232 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,560 And sometimes it's like, OK, like sometimes I will get 233 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,880 inspiration for a song and then, like, be able to write it in a, 234 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,640 you know, a few minutes and it just all comes out. 235 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,800 But other times I'm just like tinkering on the piano, you 236 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,920 know, like improvising over chords and. 237 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,480 And it comes from like, the doing rather than the waiting 238 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,400 for something because, you know, I can go years without having 239 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,160 one of these inspiration moments if I don't just play and do 240 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:14,760 stuff. Yeah. 241 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,040 Yes, I mean, Maya Angelou treated writing as as a job. 242 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,440 She rented a hotel room. She would go into the room and 243 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,000 and work all day long. And it's it's, it becomes part 244 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,440 of the process. Yeah, Well, thank you for 245 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:32,880 sharing a bit about your process. 246 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,640 You know, it's led to, Yeah, this honor, right? 247 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,000 As I mentioned in the intro, you received a 2025 Stephen Heller 248 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,240 Prize for Cultural Commentary. It's named after Stephen Heller, 249 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,120 who's a professor at SVA in New York, who's also prolific writer 250 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,200 himself. And it's such a meaningful honor 251 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,000 for design writing and design commentary. 252 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Can you tell us about what this award means to you? 253 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,720 And also a little bit maybe about your long relationship 254 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,640 with AIGA, since this is like a a culmination of it or a Laurel 255 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,400 that comes from that long relationship. 256 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,480 Thank you. Yes, receiving the Stephen 257 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,920 Heller Prize from the AIGA meant a great deal to me. 258 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,920 Stephen has long modelled how design writing can function as 259 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,040 as as cultural commentary, not just as craft or historical 260 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,080 documentation, so being recognized in that context felt 261 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,240 deeply humbling for me. The award affirmed something I 262 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,000 believed for a long time, that our thinking about design should 263 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,440 live beyond the classroom, beyond our our siloed community, 264 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,000 that it should participate in broader cultural conversations. 265 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,200 I'm a great fan of public scholars like Anne Applebaum, 266 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,320 Neil deGrasse Tyson, Dr. Henley, Louis Gates. 267 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,160 So for me, writing for Harvard Business Review, writing for 268 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,760 Fast Company, writing for Ink IT, it's essential to me because 269 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:07,400 I want to tell the public about how we think, about how we live, 270 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,680 about how we consume, about how we relate to each other and to 271 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,840 the planet. And so the Heller Prize really 272 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,600 felt like an encouragement to keep doing that, to keep 273 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,680 insisting that design commentary is cultural commentary. 274 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,160 And and early in my career, to answer your question about the 275 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,360 AIGA, the AIGA represented excellence and inspiration. 276 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,320 It was where you look to understand what great design 277 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,840 was, who the great designers were. 278 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,560 It offered community. It offered standards, a sense of 279 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,040 belonging to something larger than oneself and it and it 280 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,080 signaled professional legitimacy. 281 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,000 Right. Over time, I saw the AIGAA 282 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:58,520 little differently as a convener of ideas, a place where design, 283 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,800 ethics, diversity, technology, cultural responsibility could be 284 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,280 debated and shaped. And that was, that was really 285 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,520 critical, I think to understand that and to, to share that with 286 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,720 my colleagues and students. So the in the past decades, I, I 287 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,800 think the biggest shift I've seen is that design has moved 288 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,000 from artifact to influence. And designers today shape 289 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,319 interfaces, we shape behaviors, narratives, even public policy. 290 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,560 So that expansion carries responsibility. 291 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,080 And the AI JS role has evolved from kind of, in my mind, from 292 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,640 celebrating craft to fostering leadership, inclusion, ethical 293 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,080 accountability. So I see it as a cultural 294 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,640 platform. Yeah, thank you for sharing your 295 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,240 perspective. It's definitely like, you know, 296 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,040 Julie and I being the torch bearers of AIGA at the moment, 297 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,760 you know, to thinking about just curating and producing our 298 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,240 conference last year in Los Angeles where you received the. 299 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Stephens Hacker Prize. You know, for us it really was 300 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,360 like, how do we hold this space? That's like, maybe I don't know 301 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,360 if it's a third space or neutral space, but it's like bridging 302 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,600 the discourses that happen in academia, in industry, but is 303 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,560 kind of brings people together, right? 304 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,440 Educators, professors like yourself, but also, you know, 305 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,880 practitioners, people working in design agencies or in house like 306 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,280 this space that people may not gather as often, right? 307 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,920 Cross paths as often. Like how do we talk about design 308 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,960 in these very different ways and cross pollinate these ideas and 309 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,720 networks with each other? And you do a great job. 310 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,720 Thank you. You're all. 311 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:39,800 Thank you. Thank you. 312 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,440 Probably not. I think you mentioned earlier 313 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,480 that you say that usually at the moment we, we're not only 314 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,200 writing, we're rewriting. So looking at what exists in the 315 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,880 world and how do we build on knowledge on top of that. 316 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,840 And I think from when we talk about from the design 317 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,800 perspective, I think often times we're also redesigning things 318 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,320 that already exist, but maybe are not working in current time. 319 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,680 So I'm, I'm curious to hear from you if there's a product, a 320 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:15,760 service or a space that you could redesign that is probably 321 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,920 not working how it should that you want to share with us. 322 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:26,280 What would you change about it? That is such a fascinating 323 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,200 question that I think that could cover. 324 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,440 You could ask every designer about that it and so you're, 325 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,640 you're asking an, an educator. So my answer is I would redesign 326 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:45,640 classrooms as, as active spaces. I, I actually really hate that 327 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:51,280 it's, it's still in a talking head format that kids are stuck 328 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,760 in desks. Whether the university, I call 329 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,960 my students kids. They're not, they're they're 330 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,000 young adults. I I would create flexible 331 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,880 environments. That invite movement, that 332 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,240 invite collaboration, reflection, experimentation. 333 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,560 Furniture would shift easily. The walls would be what do you 334 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,920 call the white, writable surfaces. 335 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,400 There would be space for making, for prototyping, for discussion, 336 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,760 and even for quiet contemplation. 337 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,200 And technology would support exploration, not dominate it. 338 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,080 So I I think learn. I really think learning is 339 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,400 social. That's how I run it in my 340 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,520 university classroom. It's embodied, as you said, 341 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,000 Juliana, Julia, It's, it's iterative. 342 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,520 Our spaces should reflect that. Design shapes behavior. 343 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,120 And if we want curiosity, participation, and critical 344 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,720 thinking, we have to design for them. 345 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,520 And right now, many classrooms are designed for compliance. 346 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,840 And I'd read I'd redesign them for engagement. 347 00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:59,880 Wow. Yeah, I love that. 348 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,800 It's it's such an important shift to to design for 349 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,600 participation and and engagement. 350 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,560 Yeah, I love that. And Speaking of, you're a person 351 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,200 that has navigated many spaces. So as a designer, also as a 352 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,200 writer, but also as an academic, as a dancer as well, as you 353 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,560 mentioned earlier, is there someone in the past or present 354 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:28,040 that truly has inspired you in any of these spaces that you 355 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,800 have been? So either for their work or for 356 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,240 the person that they they are, And why, why, why is it? 357 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,000 Is it OK if I mentioned three people? 358 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,080 Is that of course, yeah, the. More the married. 359 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,240 Yes. OK. 360 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,880 So I'll, I'll, I'll break it down a little bit. 361 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Somebody that your listeners are very familiar with in the design 362 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:55,120 world would be Brian Collins, who what moves me is, is how he 363 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,840 frames responsibility. Brian talks about brands as 364 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,960 living systems and design as cultural membership. 365 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,760 The main thing I think that that separates Brian from many other 366 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,880 designers is that he challenges us to think of the planet as a 367 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,560 stakeholder. He, he's and I, I'm aligned with 368 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,720 him and being very planet centered and he leads with 369 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,840 extraordinary generosity, whether he's mentoring or 370 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:33,080 sharing, elevating others, inviting people on sojourns. 371 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,880 I mean, his leadership really expands beyond design aesthetics 372 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,560 into stewardship, I think. And then in higher education, I 373 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,680 have to shout out my university president, Doctor Lamont 374 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,880 Reppalet, who's also my co-author of of a new book we 375 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,320 co-authored a book called Leadership by Design. 376 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,760 And what stands out about Doctor Reppalet is how he is a value 377 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,320 driven's leader and and he's a humanist. 378 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,480 He listens deeply, he builds community intentionally and he 379 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,360 believes education transforms lives and acts on that every 380 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,360 day. And then the person that the 381 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,200 other designer I would like to speak about and, and you both 382 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,040 know a lot about her because you awarded her a posthumous medal 383 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:29,400 this past year is Dorothy Hayes. And it was a really kind of 360 384 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,200 moment for me at the conference when when you awarded Dorothy 385 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,080 that medal because Dorothy hired me to teach my first teaching 386 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,520 job. Dorothy. 387 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,440 No, I didn't know that. Yeah, Dorothy was, as you know, 388 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,400 a designer. She had her own studio, I think 389 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,560 it was Dorothy's door, is that? Yes, Correct. 390 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,040 She was an educator at CUNY, where she hired me and a 391 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,760 sculptor, so a really a Renaissance person. 392 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,760 And she modeled for me what it meant to be a practitioner and a 393 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,920 committed educator. And I don't know that I'd be 394 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,120 sitting here talking to you. I don't want to cry without 395 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:16,080 without Dorothy Hayes. Wow, that's beautiful. 396 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,880 I didn't know that. That's it's such an important 397 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,160 part of the story that we are happy to share with the 398 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,120 listeners. I really didn't know. 399 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,160 And I got to meet her family at the conference of So I'm in your 400 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,040 debt. Wow. 401 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:33,960 That's so beautiful. Yeah. 402 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,080 I wanted to pivot back to what we're talking about with brands 403 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,600 and hear more about your expertise of about brands and 404 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,360 cultural moments. You know, I gave the example 405 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,120 from earlier my career with Dove and how brands are these 406 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,240 cultural actors. And so maybe as a way to plug 407 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,840 into current events, we're recording this a few days after 408 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,320 the Super Bowl. And so there's lots of, I mean, 409 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,960 both kind of political and cultural moments in such a large 410 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,040 spectacle like that. I have to admit I only watched 411 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,520 the Bad Bunny part. I didn't watch the game. 412 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,760 But with like, large spectacles like that and brands paying, you 413 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,520 know, Mega Millions of dollars to get in front of eyeballs and 414 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,880 get people's attention, like, how do you see that evolving? 415 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,480 Or you know, I mean, the Super Bowl's been around for decades, 416 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,880 but like now, especially with like AI powered, you know, ads 417 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,720 and, and things like that and even more attention, right? 418 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,080 So the Super Bowl, but also people are like on their phones 419 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,960 too, like posting about it as they watch. 420 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,200 The people's attention is even more divided. 421 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Like how do you see that now that's maybe different from 422 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,080 decades ago? Well. 423 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,800 You put your finger on the idea that people are sharing about 424 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,640 things. It's so, so. 425 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:54,080 Social media has changed all of it, but and people scrutinize 426 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,160 what they see. Everybody's a critic, right? 427 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,960 And everybody's looking up to see if if the brand is telling 428 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,960 the truth or not. So I think brands build real 429 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,200 relationships and they have to move those relationships have to 430 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,400 move beyond visibility. And again, going back to the 431 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,680 idea that I think they have to make long term investments in 432 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,560 communities or in the planet that in the communities who 433 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,320 sustain them. That means showing up 434 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,920 consistently, not just during campaign cycles. 435 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,960 And it means supporting causes and people over the long term, 436 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,280 not just in a headline moment like like the Super Bowl. 437 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,320 It means designing initiatives that create real tangible value 438 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,320 for for people, for neighborhoods, for creatures, 439 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,080 for the planet. I I would argue that brands are 440 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,720 cultural participants that when they give back, when they build 441 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,560 platforms, when they find solutions or create spaces for 442 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,880 dialogue like like Doug did, they stop being interruptions 443 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,680 and start becoming partners. I mean, people do, you know, 444 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,640 watch the Super Bowl for the entertainment aspect, of course, 445 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,240 but awareness is transactional there. 446 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,160 There's so much out there as as you said, I think you use the 447 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,880 word noise or, or relationships are reciprocal. 448 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,680 So the brands that will endure are the ones who understand that 449 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,640 they're not just extracting information, but contributing to 450 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,160 culture in a positive way, not a negative. 451 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,080 Way. Totally, Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's 452 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,160 not just about like the name recognition for the brand or 453 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,520 sometimes these brands are already known by the audience, 454 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:41,520 right. But it's just like, OK, well, 455 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,760 what do you want people to talk about in relation to that brand 456 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,760 that's maybe beyond just the product that they're selling? 457 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,440 Exactly And Gen. Z is can be merciless. 458 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,800 I mean, they really will hold your feet to the fire and I I 459 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,520 applaud them for that. I applaud them for scrutinizing 460 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,360 whether a campaign is performative or or or real. 461 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,640 Yeah, that's great. It's such a a shift also with 462 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,320 with new generations being being the the audience of of all this 463 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,600 campaigns. Yeah. 464 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,560 We'll see how Gen. does, but Gen. 465 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,120 Z is, Gen. Z is is is really good in terms 466 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,640 of holding people to account. That's yeah, that's great. 467 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,040 I guess that's what we need. Yeah, previous generations need. 468 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,400 So Robin, besides being academic and academic and and a writer, 469 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,760 you also work as a consultant with corporations around 470 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440 creativity. You have seen creative teams 471 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,160 change throughout the years and especially how creative skills 472 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,320 are are being spread throughout organizations. 473 00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:01,120 So I, I wanted to hear from you if you have an advice on how to 474 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:08,040 give creative teams space for them to explore their creative 475 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,760 skills again, for, for them to progress in their careers. 476 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,280 So as they move to leadership roles, for instance. 477 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,160 So what exactly is the type of skills that you feel like is are 478 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,120 missing for in in those leaders in these corporations that 479 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,400 you've been engaged with? Well, the, the main thing 480 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:35,160 missing is, is enough diversity. I, I would say they've moved to 481 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,800 be more inclusive in terms of you seeing technologists and 482 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,320 brand strategists and product leads in the room with, with a 483 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,680 creative team much earlier. They're invited to the table 484 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,880 much earlier at the ground floor, especially technologists 485 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,560 and in and in England, brand planners and brand strategists 486 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:01,080 are are key here, more strategists there there and 487 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,840 there is more inclusion in terms of gender, race, ethnicity. 488 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,440 And that's progress. But the data still shows a long 489 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,080 way to go. For example, black creatives 490 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,800 only make up about 7% of the of the chief creative officers in 491 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,120 advertising. That doesn't reflect the 492 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,760 population. I think true creativity requires 493 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,840 diversity, differences in lived experience and age and culture 494 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,080 and perspectives. The teams I see doing the most 495 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,640 interesting works are the ones that intentionally broaden who 496 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,000 gets to contribute, not just symbolically but structurally. 497 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,360 So you know, the great cellist yo-yo Ma talks about the 498 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,440 ecological edge effect. I don't know if you if you heard 499 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,960 him talk, he talked about it on a podcast once I think where the 500 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,320 boundary between two ecosystems produces the richest 501 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,520 biodiversity. And the same is true for ideas. 502 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,360 Innovation happens at that edge where different cultures, 503 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,960 disciplines and and points of view meet. 504 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,120 So when you expand, who gets to shape the idea as you expand? 505 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,640 What's possible? That's great. 506 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Yes, yes. So will we cap off this part of 507 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,080 the conversation about brands and stuff like that? 508 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,040 Is there an example of some recent brand work that has 509 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,720 really stuck with you in terms of a brand that's really power, 510 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,440 that's powerfully captured these cultural moments and shifted the 511 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,600 conversation? OK, if I mention too, yeah. 512 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:39,200 Please. Yeah. 513 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,280 That always. All of these examples. 514 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,960 OK, that that pop into my mind. The work that that stays with me 515 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,120 does usually one of two things, sometimes both. 516 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,200 It's either grounded into a deep insight into human behavior or 517 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,480 it it invests meaningfully in our planet, foreign people. 518 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,400 MasterCard has been doing their priceless campaign for I think 519 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,640 it's 20 years. I'm I'm not exactly sure. 520 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,600 And they few years ago realized that priceless had to include 521 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,000 everyone. And when Russia attacked 522 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Ukraine, Ukrainians were leaving and and entering Poland in large 523 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,240 numbers. And MasterCard created an app 524 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,000 called Where to Settle to help Ukrainian refugees find places 525 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,760 to live and work in Poland. And also, not only did it help 526 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,520 Ukrainians, but it helped Polish citizens alleviate some anxiety 527 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,320 about the fact that not everybody was going to settle in 528 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,160 the same city and and take housing or jobs away from from 529 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,720 Polish people. So the campaign created a 530 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,600 digital platform that helped distribute arrivals more evenly 531 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,520 across regions, reducing pressure on urban areas and 532 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,360 while helping refugees integrate more smoothly. 533 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:07,800 I think that insight into the needs of both the Ukrainians and 534 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:14,040 the Poles help translate design into an infrastructure that that 535 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,480 was really beneficial. It didn't just communicate. 536 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,240 The campaign didn't just say communicate, we feel for you. 537 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,320 It actually did something that was very, very useful and and 538 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,240 helpful. Another brand and and if I had a 539 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:34,920 cat, I would feed my cat Sheba the Sheba the Sheba hope grows 540 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,680 reef restoration. I don't know if your listeners 541 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,360 know about it, but it it's powerful for a different reason. 542 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,560 It really represents a long term investment in reef restoration. 543 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,480 And you think, well, what is cat food have to do with coral 544 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,840 reefs? Well, cat eat fish and fish need 545 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,440 coral. And so they are, their 546 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,560 investment is measurable. It's made a huge difference in 547 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,640 reef restoration around the world. 548 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,800 It's an it's an ongoing environmental contribution. 549 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,960 So the brand didn't just talk about sustainability, they 550 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,639 fundamentally made a difference. And so I think both examples are 551 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,120 about reciprocity. They don't just capture 552 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,159 attention, but they reduce friction and they and they 553 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:28,960 restore ecosystems. Totally, yes. 554 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,400 We are reaching the end of our show now with the final chapter 555 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,719 talking about the future. And so one way that you are 556 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,679 making the future is shaping future designers, your students. 557 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,440 But you have been an educator for decades now and you're 558 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,840 teaching in a world you mentioned, like we could have 559 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,920 better classrooms for interaction and, and things like 560 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,679 that. But you're also teaching in a 561 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,239 world where students are plugged into their phones, they have 562 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,960 access to AI tools. So how are you navigating all of 563 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,120 that? Since the teaching environment, 564 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,520 the learning environment is different, even if the 565 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,840 classrooms are still maybe based on a factory model from 566 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:14,000 centuries past. It's really critical question in 567 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,880 industry is using AI. It's in the workflow. 568 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,640 So we have to in design and in, in, in the creative side of 569 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,040 advertising. We have to prepare students for 570 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,520 that reality. It would be unfair if we didn't. 571 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,880 So our graduates are entering creative fields where AI is 572 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:36,280 already in use. They need fluency, but they 573 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,560 don't actually even need me for fluency. 574 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,000 A lot of them are already very good at it. 575 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,080 What they need, well I hope they need me for, is judgement and 576 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,520 ethics. And I tell my students that AI 577 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,640 can generate absolutely, but it doesn't understand nuance yet. 578 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,200 We'll. See what happens when this 579 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:04,760 episode comes out, but. Right, right, right. 580 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,600 It it doesn't have it. The only ethics it has is for 581 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,000 whoever input. So there's bias and it doesn't 582 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,880 have cultural consequences. We have to foresee cultural 583 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,520 consequences and it doesn't have lived experience except for the 584 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,960 people who input and again, that's a very controlled group 585 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,360 of people in putting with their bias and it can't feel the 586 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,680 weight of a decision, which is interesting or live with the 587 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,960 consequences of the decisions that you make. 588 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:42,120 So the responsibility is still on the students and, and that 589 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,520 that's what I'm trying to communicate. 590 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,320 And, and then, and if everyone has access to the same tool, so 591 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,600 you both know that when Adobe comes out with a tool, 592 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,000 everybody's on it and, and all of a sudden kind of work looks 593 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,400 similar for, for a little while, right? 594 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,400 So we all have access to the same democratic tools and we're 595 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,960 using them in similar ways and the work starts to converge. 596 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,800 So you get algorithmic sameness, I guess. 597 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,120 But So what differentiates you isn't the tool, it's your 598 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,360 insight. It's your conceptual thinking, 599 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,680 it's your taste, it's your intention. 600 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,080 And so my role is to help them become not just efficient at the 601 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,680 tools, but to be thoughtful creators. 602 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,280 Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it makes, it makes total 603 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,720 sense. And speaking about the future, 604 00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:34,920 still speaking about the future, if you could give one piece of 605 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,120 advice for emerging designers listening to us, what would it 606 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,720 be? Become the best critical and 607 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:47,280 creative thinker that you can and really think about the 608 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,920 voids, think about gaps, think about who's not included, who's 609 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,120 who's being excluded, who should be included? 610 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,040 How can you move the discipline forward? 611 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,040 How can you move the design discourse forward? 612 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,640 And and who gains. So I always talk about ideation 613 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,160 as goal gap and gain, and I think you really have to think 614 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,920 about all of those things. Who's missing, who's 615 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,000 underrepresented, who's underserved, and who stands to 616 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,120 benefit from what you're creating? 617 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,800 And to wrap up, I wanted to ask you what has been inspiring you 618 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,600 lately? So that could be a book, a 619 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,280 movie, a show, an album and exhibition. 620 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,600 Anything that you you want to share? 621 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,240 I recently visited the Metropolitan Museum's exhibit of 622 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:42,000 Nan Ray, and I always loved Man Ray. 623 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,560 But this particular exhibit, you know, when things hit you at a 624 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,480 certain time, Man Ray had this extraordinary ability to take 625 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,440 recognizable objects like a face or a body or a hand and 626 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,600 transform it into something mysterious and, and 627 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,640 psychologically charged. He he disrupted expectations. 628 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,280 He made the familiar feel strange. 629 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,560 So what inspires me is was his refusal to simply document 630 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,240 reality. He interpreted it. 631 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,560 He manipulated light. He experimented with form. 632 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,560 And it reminds me that experimentation is a 633 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,560 responsibility. That mystery invites 634 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,440 participation. It slows us down and it makes us 635 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,600 look again. If you want to go back to the 636 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,880 Super Bowl and the Squarespace commercial with Emma Stone, it 637 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,280 was invited us to to take a a closer look. 638 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,760 So that's what feeds my creativity right now. 639 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,320 The the permission to ask what if questions, What if we did 640 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,920 this? What if we did that and turn the 641 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,880 obvious into something evocative. 642 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,240 So Man Ray reminded me that the job of a creative person isn't 643 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,680 to confirm expectations, but to disrupt thing. 644 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,520 Wow, that's that's great. I'm going to check it out the 645 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,480 exhibition. Thank you, Robin. 646 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,040 Thank you so much for inviting me. 647 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,400 And thank you, listeners, for tuning into this episode of the 648 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,680 AIG Design Podcast. Please share how you feel with 649 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,560 us. You could e-mail us at podcast 650 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,000 at aig.org or rate US on the podcast platform of your choice. 651 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,680 We'll see you in a future episode.