I don't think most people are trying to rip other people and I
think that is a very different conversation.
I think what were more interested in continuing is just
like better education and better knowledge that these
conversations are easier to have, so that both sides are
better informed, talking about what it means to use other
artists work in your work. Welcome to this special edition
of design feature. Now, from aiga the professional
association for design, my name is Li Xian zhuang director of
design, content and learning here at aiga.
And I am joined by our special guest today.
Heather Mariah Dixon and Abigail Karen's from Studio, 8h MVD a
brooklyn-based woman, lead content, and branding studio.
Today we're going to learn more about Heather and Abby's
Journeys as designers as photographers, Says creative
content, creators, but also focus on this topic around
appropriation and plagiarism and where to draw that line from
inspiration to appropriation. So thanks for joining us on the
show today. Thanks for having us for really
excited to be here. And this is a conversation,
we're really excited to be having and something we talked
about a lot in our practice, so be great.
Thanks for the warm intro. Yeah, so I did the brief intro
but I always love to hear. Here, your own stories from your
own mouths. So tell us about your origin
stories as designers, but also together as a studio as a joint
practice. Absolutely, I'll kick things
off. I grew up with a really creative
childhood was always in dance and art and all that kind of fun
creative stuff as a kid. And then when I got to college
this sort of natural Pursuit that I thought was going to be
the best choice for me was Art. So, I went into printmaking and
it's a funny story but as I was pursuing a degree in
printmaking. I was only doing typography and
reproducing ads and I told people that I wanted to be a
commercial artist. So eventually I really kind
Professor that I had at Western Washington University where I
and a be attended recommended that I go downstairs and check
out the design program and the rest is kind of history.
There, I ended up graduating with a double major in both,
fine arts and design and then very soon after, you know, I've
always been interested in fashion and beauty and luxury.
So the Natural Choice for me was to move to New York and began my
career. After moving to New York, I'll
keep this brief because it was quite the winding path, but I
freelanced at a variety of agencies, as well as
independently. I sort of always had these
independent projects going, no matter where I was at full-time
or or freelance. Small business owner would come
to me and say I have nothing but a name than a product and I want
to make this go live and I would Then figure out the best way to
go through from strategy before I even knew to call strategy all
the way to photographing their products sometimes like on the
sidewalk. And, you know, just kind of
this, very Scrappy Hands-On approach to making things in a
really holistic and really considered Manner.
And then at my last full-time job, I was fairly kind of
feeling stagnant. And then at night and early in
the morning, I would go home and work on these projects that I
really cared about and eventually through Turn of
events. I ended up having enough work
outside of my regular job that I was able to quit and I was able
to launch Studio, agent, feeding, and 2018.
I'll hand it over to Abby and then we can kind of sink back
up. Yeah, like she mentioned we met
in college. So I also attended Western
Washington University, I studied dance as well as design and so
because of those be my areas of focus, it also means since moved
to New York as so we moved right around the same time.
My design path took a very different course.
I ended up in a lot more institutions like NYU and higher
education as well as other art specifically movement based
programs. So a lot of times my positions
were straddling Administration and design.
So I was often in offices and things like that, where design
and marketing needed to be integrated into the work.
We were doing administrative Lee, whether that be programming
or the likes eventually, I ended up Pilates studio.
And I was working as their program director for their
International teacher training program and throughout that
career, I picked up a lot about like, operations and the
structure that goes into allowing, these creative people
to really Thrive and make the work that they want to do.
And so that's kind of where I realized that this like, that's
where my little niche was is like building structures that
allow creatives to really flourish and about that time
where I was hitting kind of a Apex at my job.
My full-time position, Heather has started the studio about six
months prior. And she was reaching a point
where I felt like she could like use some help and I just helped
and I saw what she was building and was just like really
impressed by the work that she was already out putting as a
single woman studio. And so I basically told her I
was showing up to work and that she had no choice to.
And so I came on board and we started building that together
and Abby just showed up and I couldn't It's a no and didn't
want to either because you know she has a brilliant mind for
kind of constructing like more of a strategic approach around
creative work and kind of finding the way to make, like a
foundation. So that you can go do your best
work and you can go make anything.
So after she joined, that's kind of when I consider the studio,
like really truly beginning. The first six months were very
much trying, a lot of different things in the first six months.
We also would take on any kind of project that was Ugly
creative in a lot of ways. I did book designs, I pitched
for interior design. I, you know was really really
all over the place. Packaging misc like ad hoc
graphic design as well as branding as well as photography
as well as strategy and kind of just doing whatever.
I could get my hands on when Abby came on.
We really really streamlined and decided then in there.
Okay, we're going to do two things.
We're going to create brand identities and whatever comes
within the brand identity. So long as we have, That kind of
control over the base identity. And then further, we are going
to bulk out our content creation side of the practice.
So we're going to do photography and stop motion for campaigns
social media brand launches. And that's really what we stuck
with for the last, like, 3 years now, is those two areas of
expertise. And a lot of times, they really
do overlap and have a lot of merge to them.
I mean, some of our projects are just branding and they start
with strategy and and With brand guidelines and some of our
projects, start with strategy and end with photoshoot and a
website and everything. All these different touchpoints,
packaging, that we've designed, and we've had a hand in, on the
other hand, sometimes we get to just do product photography and
send it off and be done. And that's also really nice.
So, yeah, and something I want to touch on here is just how we
ended up being two trained designers that end up in, you
know, photography and that's kind of an interesting image
making is a Very different side of the industry, right?
And a departure from type and graphic design.
And that actually happened in a really interesting way.
When I started the studio, I felt like, you know, I had this
work that I want to display. I was like okay I have, you
know, these great projects, time to put them in the portfolio and
then when it came to putting them in the portfolio, I go.
Well I had custom collateral made for this or well this
mock-up that I can find online. Really does not make any sense
within this kind of brand world. Created I might as well just
shoot at myself. So I started going up on my roof
with the kind of like mediocre digital camera I had at the time
and just photographing things in the natural sunlight on my roof
with no Shadows around. And just started to kind of
build up some work and start to play and start to understand how
to style things and how to work with light and, you know, those
kind of Basics and then soon client started to see that work
and say, hey can I Use this. Can I put this on my social
media? And I was kind of like, oh
that's interesting, do you want to pay for it?
And at first they were like no and you know we had to work a
lot of that but as we grew, it began to become a request that
we were getting more and more as well as we're able to prove like
a we've done, you know, all the photography for this brand or
we've done this for this. So yeah.
And then as I became onto like we just learned to work
together. Even even farther and a be like,
has a great Natural Instinct for styling and for building up a
composition and we just learned more and more together on like
the technical aspects until you know, we've become a very
confident studio in that area. How did you train up some of
those previous clients to be like?
Hey, this is an additional service, that wasn't necessarily
an original scope and this is also something that you would
scope out and charge for well in a lot of cases I didn't And we
didn't I mean we would say Hey you know people would say hey
can I have that photo your can I'm going to repost that photo
you took for your portfolio on my Instagram and I kind of say
okay because we really didn't know better and also we really
didn't have the strength to say hey no to that client I think is
a became on maybe you want to fill in here.
Yeah I think strength but more the language we didn't really
have the language to use to talk.
Clients about that, especially as we were growing in the in the
early years about like part of that was the way that that our
contracts were written. They weren't written in a way
that was clear about scope editions of stuff like that.
So that was an aspect to it as well as learning about licensing
itself and what that actually means as far as usability and
we're and length of time, you know, those were just like terms
and stuff that we did not understand and it took a lot of
Missteps on our part. On top of just general research
and meeting other people in the industries and then being really
open and Frank with us about, you know, what?
We should be expecting and demanding of our clients and
also helping them learn to because that's another aspect of
this is self-education. But also educating the people
that you're talking to because like licensing is not common
knowledge for people who are engaging with not work.
And so being prepared to say, Is the way that it is because these
are industry standards and these are, or these are personal
standards that we have as well. So yeah, that definitely took
growing and kind of to Heather's Point like we didn't really do
very well, first kind of stumbled for a while.
I think one thing that kind of was more more than telling
clients that we had. Hey, this is what we need to do
for this. It was more like.
Alright, the next client will start them on a fresh contract
that protects Us in that area or Or, you know, photography will
be included in the scope and it will be clear that you know if
you want to purchase photography from us, that's an additional
cost. So yeah.
Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning here.
Now that none of us here are trained as lawyers but certain
point you do want to work with a lawyer on your contracts and
your licensing agreements and all of that.
But there's a lot of it that we as designers as content creators
can do just understanding what some of these Professional
Standards and Norms might And talking with each other in the
community but also talking with clients and figuring out how to
communicate that in ways that's more on the norm side.
In addition to the legal side with the help of lawyers.
I want to explore that a little bit more but first it just
wanted to finish sketching out a little bit about your practice.
You have this interesting two-pronged practice with the
brand identity and the portfolio photography content, creation,
kind of work are there other Other Studios like yours that
have these kind of dual models or how did you decide on this,
or do you have sort of analogs and direct competitors in that
sense? So I think the closest studio
that, that we know of is probably party of one Studio
because they do both brand identities as well as this kind
of very sensorial art Direction and photography but there are
not to our knowledge. A lot of fully direct
competitors that do really, really Really, really, similar
structure to us. There's a lot of Studios that
offer branding and then they offer like art Direction but you
know, they don't shoot the photography and house.
Or as we do for most of our work, sometimes we do art direct
other photographers. But like for our product work,
we shoot kind of keep the whole production process in-house.
So there's definitely more. It's a growing industry as well
and a growing type of Niche. So let's talk about your
influences and inspiration then because you have these Various
creative disciplines that you're coming from like, who inspires
your? What?
Inspires you in your creative work?
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question.
I mean, one thing that we always come back to just over and over
and over again. Whenever we're in a creative rut
is where we live, which is the city of New York and being able
to walk out our front door and look around and see kind of the
layers of humanity and interest and grime.
And visual chaos that goes on outside of Our studio every day.
So, I would say that that's one really, really large and ongoing
inspiration for us and we will be like going to go Source
props, from somewhere, to store and app, you'll be like, look at
the are on that side. What's wrong with it?
Yeah, we are often taking pictures of things that we see
throughout the city and also our travels to specifically like how
they're saying like type is a big one.
Like we're often looking for like old vintage hand-painted
type and we're just like, look at this crazy.
Text or this crazy texture that I saw.
Um, yeah that's definitely a big part of it in terms of people
and kind of movements that we like there's a lot of incredibly
talented artists and designers that we have both the privilege
of admiring from afar as well as like knowing I'll just name a
few names that we've followed for a long time and enjoyed the
work of I mean I think it goes without saying in the creative
industry we've always been a big admirer of In CO as, you know, a
kind of earlier woman, founded agency, that's kicked ass for
years. And then from that, like, some
more contemporary designers that we've really enjoyed seeing the
work of is likely. And Rosie's does incredible
lettering, and really cool work Noemi lacaze, who part of little
troupe studio and does some really, really Kick-Ass Brands?
Bring a little itch. I think, is her last name.
Her portfolio photography is incredible.
She she's always had the best case studies ever.
We also really appreciate the work from geography.
Standpoint of Tyler Mitchell who, you know, shot book covers
and really does amazing things as well as very dear to our
heart. Our good friend, John Henry, who
has produced incredible body of work over the last few years and
we're just absolutely and admiration.
I have as well as from a typography standpoint were big
fans of Trey, seals at vocal type.
So those are just some some name We'll post that in the show
notes to but really appreciate you sharing some of your
influences and also shouting out some of your peers and your
friends and Industry on that point of finding inspiration
just in your environment and the urban environment.
There are probably things that you take pictures of that you
can't attribute because you don't know who created it or its
historical or it's just through osmosis right?
Is things that you experience and then maybe you reproduce in
some way. How do you navigate Ate some of
these fuzzy lines that I think all creative content creators
have to deal with between inspiration and direct
appropriation or inappropriate uses.
How do you deal with this not necessarily on the legal end of
things? Because the creative and
Industry Norms side of things. I think that that's a really,
really valuable question because it's something that comes up a
lot, you know, where you, I mean there's been times where you've
been sketching and you've been making Long ago at your like
this is awesome. And then you look at the logo in
your, like I am just made the Pepsi logo like this just
happened to me because, you know, we're very like humans are
very Visual and things kind of catch in your brain.
And it's easy to find yourself in a position where you're
trying to make something original.
But there's so much in the world that it's hard to even carve out
your Niche and create something that's really different.
A couple kind of techniques. We have for doing this are for
one Starting like not on the internet, helps a lot in terms
of finding inspiration, at least for looking at things that are
not what everybody else is looking at from the first
get-go. It's always good to kind of like
look around the internet and be inspired by your peers and be
inspired by current design but not using it as a starting
Place. Actually we find really does
help us kind of come up with fresh and original ideas.
When you're looking like historical looking at what you
see in. And then looking at thinking
about what you like about that thing and this kind of goes for
any better inspiration. Why do I like that?
Why do I want to make that? Like, what about that?
Makes me want to go. Oh, that is so good.
I wish I did it. And what are those kind of
building blocks, right? Is it, because of the way they
use type, is it the color palette?
Is it? The combination of all those
things? Is it some contrast in shape or
Texture size? Is there some building block
that makes that good? And if you can kind of delineate
and Define that and you can look at that building block and go,
okay, I'm going to make something really good.
But I'm going to use the formula that used, I'm not using the
type that they're using. I'm not using the color they're
using, but I'm thinking, I want a huge difference in scale, or I
want a million colors on this page.
I want a really complex build up of three different typefaces and
you can make something that becomes your own thing.
It is totally original, but you're looking at that just kind
of intrinsic thing of like, what makes what makes it appealing?
So, that's kind of a recommendation as well as just
doing litmus checks with Yourself.
Like you know, if you find something and you fall in love
with it happens to the best of us.
Just coming back. Every once in a while, I'm
going. Am I making something that is
for application and not original and how do I make original and
how do I make it my own specifically on that point with
photography often? What I like to look for in our
Concepts and what we're doing is like we shouldn't be able to
find the image we're trying to make so it's like if you are you
know, we've come up with a concept and what we've developed
it within Strategy. And then now, we're looking for
the inspiration. We're looking for lighting
references, we're looking for textures and things like that,
and we should not through that research, like be able to find
the exact image that we're making.
And that's how I know that we're, like, on the right path
and that we are truly being inspired versus appropriating or
getting into that gray area. I think that you're trying to
hint at, yeah, really likes your point about starting your
research off the internet. The internet is great read.
There's so much that you can get, but I think people are
often searching for the same things with the same things kind
of show up in people's search engine optimization feeds, and
things like that. And so having something maybe
older more historical or maybe more obscure that hasn't been
digitized reason so readily findable online.
I think it's a great kind of creative Point as well as a sort
of avoiding too much of the same kind of thing, but I think
there, Ality is a lot of us, do have to do research online, and
it's just so easy from a technological perspective, to
have Pinterest boards full of things or create our own mood
boards, and things that we find online.
So I'm sure your stuff ends up in people's searches or in
people's mood boards and things like that.
What are some of the techniques that you have used to protect
your work and make sure that you communicate the rights and
permissions of that to folks who are looking around and looking
at your images. Yes, I will.
I'll do a quick mention of course, there are always illegal
things that come into play with copyright infringement and
Licensing that I've touched on before and always recommend
talking to a lawyer about that and making sure that you're up
to date on the awareness of like what your rights are within and
without. But basically, I think to answer
questions, like if somebody is using your image without your
permission, honestly, the best way.
And we use this pretty much. Every time I would say, most of
the time, it's pretty effective is just reaching out.
And saying, hey, I love that you love my image but if you would
like to continue to use it like you will need to purchase the
licensing. Or, you know, a lot of times
what happens is. These images are being licensed.
Most of our work is for our clients and so that professional
work is often limited to an exclusive license that our
clients have. And so therefore, we have some
have to say, like you unfortunately don't have the
right to license this image. If you would like to work with
us, we Be happy to like talk to you about what doing a project
would look like so that you know we can create those images for
you. And I would say, most of the
time it's just met with, like complete misunderstanding of
what it means to license and imaging often, people don't know
that they're overstepping boundaries.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
I feel like it's important to have the lawyers on ready, but
sometimes, like just the email is enough to just sort things
out, right? Sometimes it's just not.
Knowing or it's like oversight of what somebody's intern pulled
this thing and or whatever that might be.
So I appreciate where you're going with this of like assuming
good faith. Reaching out and then you can
always escalate if you need to. Hopefully you don't.
Yeah and I think that's something that we find a lot is
that, you know, misuse of images whether it's like our work or
you know, we see the misuse of our peers work as well, is like
it feels personal because it's work that we have made
personally. So it certainly can feel like a
little hard to swallow and an embarrassing and a lot of like
stuff can come up around that, but I think at the end of the
day it's just like communicating.
And this goes back to our earlier point about like having
the language to talk about these things and like better inform.
And the unfortunate part is that there is, you know, has been a
norm of like it is, okay to take swipe and it is okay to like
have these images in your portfolio's and things like
that. Then areas that like are really
probably you should be looking at licensing, these images and
getting permissions and things like that.
And the more that we have dialogues about like what
attribution looks like and like what it means to uplift, the
artist that you're being inspired by the better that, you
know, designers and other creatives will get at using that
work and doing the things that I truly believe they're setting
out to do. I don't think most people are
trying to rip other people. And I think that is a very
different conversation. I think, what were more
interested in continuing is just like better education and better
knowledge that these conversations are easier to
have. So that both sides are better
informed, talking about what it means to use other artists work
in your work and I think I'll call out specifically with
designers that conversation is really familiar, when were
talking about typefaces. You think?
We're all very familiar with the process of like talking to a
type Foundry and saying this is where I'm trying to use it.
This is Many people and trying to use it for in this is how
long I'm going to use it. And I think if we can start to
shift our mentality around like that extends to illustrators,
that's going to extend the videographers and photographers
and any other creative that you're involving your process,
like should be held with kind of the same respect and esteem I
think that another kind of interesting point here within
the differences between the design industry in the
photography industry is just from a business structure
standpoint, a lot of designers Those are paid in a per project
basis or they're on a salary or they're paid hourly for their
work. And for the most part, when you
are making work for a client, you assign the copyright to
them, or you are hired by that company as a employee.
So you're making work under their employment or you're
making work-for-hire work. And so a lot of times the
licensing conversation is just very very unfamiliar for
designers, truly because that's not the way their business is
structured. Whereas a lot of photographers,
a lot of Illustrators their business is, they may be
commissioned to make a work but the kind of bulk of their
earnings come from being able to continually license their work
and being able to continually leverage.
The copyright that they have created that intellectual
property that photograph and being able to say.
Okay, so, so and so use this for five years, they had a limited
license with me that license is expired.
They've chosen not to renew so you can license that image.
It's from me now or I can list that image on a stock photo
website and be able to kind of have that passive income.
And that's a big, big part of a lot of Image Creators earnings
and their livelihood. So infringing on that is a
pretty big deal, which is just a kind of yeah industry like
misunderstanding and something that you know a lot especially
designers who are new in the industry or just graduated just
don't know. Nobody, nobody teaches us.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that personal.
Active on how these two industries, even though they're
adjacent have very different kinds of business and
compensation models for creators.
What are some of the other things that you wished more
designers? Or even clients knew about how
permissions and Licensing work? There's a lot of things, but one
of the kind of big things too is just that just because it's on
the internet, doesn't mean that you are able to use it, and that
credit is not enough. You know, saying, like Okay that
photo was taken by Studio agency d, but I'm going to use it in my
portfolio to promote my work, even though it's their image.
I'm using it as a quote-unquote placeholder image in a project
that I've done just crediting a any photographer is not enough
because like we talked about with that compensation model and
the kind of structure of the industry you're taking away the
opportunity for them to profit off of their work.
Because you're showing it illegally and weakening the
value that it has in a lot of ways.
Because you're saying this is used with credit and that's
enough. And meanwhile, you're using it
for your own, potentially, for your own commercial gain, which
means you're making money off of somebody else's work.
So that's where it gets really tricky.
And I think that that's kind of a big one.
Is that like, credit is often not enough reaching out and
asking is really the most important first step when you
want to use an image. Image when in doubt just use
stock photography. There's so many resources for
free stock route, ography as well as low-cost stock imagery
and you can get really incredible imagery on like
stock. See and I'm Splash has tons and
tons of images that you can use your attribution even required.
Although it's always helpful and nice when you can give the
credit to the original maker who put it on unsplash, and, you
know, there's just all of these resources for really high
quality stock imagery. If you can't afford to license
from the photographer that you would like, oftentimes just
asking, I mean a lot of photographers don't necessarily
advertise that they're licensing out their work but they might do
it and it's just great to ask the other thing that comes with
asking as well as you're giving that artists agency and how
their work is being used, which I think is a, is a big thing for
us is that a lot of times when when work is is Miss credited,
sometimes one of the most painful parts of that is, is
knowing that you didn't have Decision-making power in that
and that it's like you know, you've lost like control
basically and I think that's something to remember to.
It's not like these artists who are creating photography or any
kind of like creative content. They're humans is they're all
like human conversations that were talking about and I think
that's just so important to remember in this creative work.
I think sometimes the licensing conversation can get really
bummed down until like the business side of things which is
super important, but at the same time, it's nice.
Remember that like these are just fellow humans that are
making art and pouring their Heart and souls into this.
You know. They're working and and I think
a little bit of the Pecos long way here.
Yeah. I just wanted to add the point
to that's often in this age of remix and of aggregation that
things get decontextualized. And so I think that's an
important part of these conversations of asking as well
of like, okay, what is this being used for?
What is it? Showing up next to or like just
because you license, something doesn't mean you can modify it
in certain ways or, you know, put a different border or
packaging on something in a way that maybe is also doesn't do
right by the original work or the Creator's intent in terms of
the particularly of stuff like that.
So I think that that larger context around where the work
will be used or modified or curated.
I think is an important part of the conversation as well.
Yeah I think that's an excellent point.
And I think really well said, and I think kind of sums up a
lot of like like what makes this so important to it's like what
what really is the idea here and something that you just brought
to my mind to is like a lot of times, these conversations can
be a really great door, opener to collaboration, which can make
both the work of the designer and the artist or photographer
even better and even add to the context of the work and really
kind of like Elevate both aspects of this.
Listen and you know really opened doors to like taking
these kind of two adjacent Trunks and merging them together
into one like harmonious peace. Maybe the clients even end up
with something that's even more specifically useful for what
they're looking for, right? It's like it's one thing to
license but you could also commissioned something new.
It's like in the style of this and then that turns into the
collaboration. Yeah, absolutely.
So kind of unrelated question, can you tell us a little bit
about your setup? Anything you want to share?
About some of the technical side of your craft.
Oh yeah, for sure speaking is the resident Gearhead so we
shoot on a Nikon D810. Our favorite lens to use is the
105 millimeter macro wheel of a high-quality crisp every detail
and focus kind of image so that macro lens is great for us or
that. We also shoot with the 50 and
oftentimes will rent an 85 mm lens.
If we need to shoot lifestyle, or portraiture, or anything that
you will Space on. And then in terms of our studio
setup, we shoot with profoto lights.
So we D ones and a D2 and kind of the modifiers, whatever
modifier. We need to get the job done,
while either rent or what, you know, use what we have.
We love grids which are these things.
You put over the light to make the beam of light controlled and
very narrow, which is great for kind of highlighting different
areas of image. We have lots of foam core Or and
then sent a foil chunks laying around and clear rods and Tack
and fishing line and all that kind of things that you use to
create a scene. And then one of our favorite
tools is diffusion paper, which is we can't stop creeping about
it. Everybody who will listen we
will tell them about diffusion paper so if you want to have a
conversation about the benefits of diffusion paper, slide into
the DMS because we'll get back to you, talked to you about
diffusion paper for Long and we will also give you a pamphlet on
it and then yeah and then we Shoot Tethered using capture one
so that we can really really be very very detail-oriented as we
shoot. So every image comes up on our
laptop screen and should we shoot and we see exactly what
we're doing and we just tend to be very methodical and really
move through the image and pretty controlled manner.
Awesome. Thank you for sharing that and
for folks who do want to follow, Blow up, we have links in the
show notes, but could you just say on my Canal if people want
to follow you or learn more about your work?
Where should they go? Our website is Studio, HMV d.com
and then our handle on Instagram is at Studio H MVD.
So we're we're pretty easy to find on there though.
I will say our emails are the easiest way to get a hold of us
at info at Studio HMV d.com. We're always on email.
So, And we preach emails as well.
So you know, we like to get lots of, you know, some feel free.
It's like please email. Please don't call, please don't
shoot. Yeah.
It's more reliable than DMS. Yes, yes, absolutely.
Absolutely wonderful. And so, if we could sum up some
of the conversation and the messages today, if you had like
a headline or telegram, you wanted to send to our audience
about the essence of this conversation.
What might that be? Be start from scratch.
Look at your Inspirations and find something new and
different. But you know, your peers aren't
looking at. And when in doubt on anything
licensing, related it to a photographer or for your own
work. Just ask always better to ask
then to guess we never guess we look it up plus one agreed.
So Heather and Abby, thank you so much for joining us.
Telling us more about your practice of branding and
content. Shouldn't add Studio, H, MVD.
And for the having this Frank conversation with us about the
different business models from photography, how it's different
from design. And just some of these Norms of
professional courtesy and decency to other creators.
So, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, thank you so
much. This is wonderful.