Welcome to aiga is fireside chat.
This is day. One of the 2022.
Portfolio Festival. Thank you for joining us for
this Fireside, and for the festival, please connect with us
and share your thoughts, the hashtags for this Fireside are
aiga design and AIG a portfolio fast.
Now, it is my pleasure to welcome, Vinnie Johnson.
A IJ is executive director and today's guest art Chantry.
Thank you, Amy, and welcome everybody to this year.
Ears aiga portfolio festival for folio Festival is an incredible
time for us to come together to design Community, to get better
stronger, more insightful about how we share the work that we
do, how we build better /, folios, we learn how to seek New
Opportunities and to celebrate the work that we've done, we'd
like to start the portfolio festival with the Fireside,
right. Our fire sides gives us a chance
to have interesting conversations and I Be more
excited for today. You hear that sound?
That is the sound of today's guess going against the grain
Unapologetic. Uncensored authentically him.
I am super excited today to have the opportunity to sit down with
the one and only art Chantry may be asking, who is he?
And we're going to come about that today, but he is our 2017,
aiga met Alice. He was born in Seattle, but
don't hold that against him. He was raised in Tacoma
Washington. Chandra is a graphic designer
known for his poster and album cover designs.
His sense of design started reflecting the punk scene in
Seattle. Have you been reading Wikipedia,
again, a little bit of that, okay?
Now that's a terrible overheating terrible, but you
know, terrible dark meaning to have somebody rewrite it for me,
but I just don't care. As I said, going against the
grade. It's what I love though.
Is this quote to the go from The Humble yet, Mighty poster to
being a part of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
The Museum of Modern Art Moma the Louvre as well as the
Smithsonian. And here's what the Smithsonian
American Art Museum, said about you the ability to look for
Andre event, the out of fashion and purposely move outside of
the mainstream International style, has resulted, I'll sit in
your success in your work, being a meanie, exhibitions design
magazines, and great success. Greetings, excuse championed,
you know this great success, you can't win it, but you whatever.
That means the subculture of Desire.
Does that mean I'm supposed to be rich or something?
I don't know about in the background is this look rich?
I don't know about that. But welcome everybody.
Our good friend. Alright.
Thank you for joining me for the Fireside.
My friend, it's easy. But I was promised to Fire it.
Well, you know you should have a photo of one or something handy.
Just so you can show it to smart asses like me, budget, cuts, me.
Okay, all digital what? All right, let's start off with
this. Let's how would you describe
your bio? My favorite color.
How do you describe my bio? Well, I I'm a self trained
graphic designer, right. When I went to college, I wanted
to believe it or not be an archaeologist and an
anthropologist, but I quickly drifted out of that and when I'm
going from major to Major to Major and then I ended up
pulling a degree in art even though Never made a painting in
my life, but basically graphic design was already the way I was
putting myself through college. I just didn't even know what it
was. I literally found the term
graphic designer in an old gray piece magazine in a college
library and I go, this is an interesting, oh, look at all
these cool posters. Oh, this is what I do, graphic
design, right? That's how I found out about the
profession. The deal is that up until the
60s graphic design wasn't even taught.
In schools, I mean it was Commercial Art was taught out of
those little ad. You find in the back of Popular
Mechanics lid and sign painters, you know, the idea of it, being
an academic course taught in a fine art Department in an Ivy
League College. I still think is an utter
absurdity. That's not where all the really
great. Graphic designers come from in
my experience. All the really brilliant ones
come out of totally different professions you know.
Anyway, after that, I went It to the real world and ride, get a
job, as a graphic designer and Seattle, particularly back.
Then was strictly a freelance town.
You don't get a job in graphic design.
You go out and fight for work with about 1,000 Seattle's a
nice place to live so there's a lot of graphic designers and
they're all out there fighting for the same work.
That's a very small piece of a pie and so it was really, really
vicious and competitive and I finally just Just got tired of
the graphic design world. I was just so nasty.
And so what I decided to do is all around me.
This pop culture explosion was happening in Seattle.
So I just basically walked away from fine, graphic, design, and
built right into pop culture. And since the early 90s that's
been my focus is. I basically brand pop culture,
that's what I do. I designed were and try to It's
Trends and ways of visual thinking, I look at graphic
design as language. And what I want to try and do is
add a few new words to the dictionary.
Yeah, that's what I do graphic design.
You know, I since the Advent of the computer, it's drifted away
from my branch of interest and has gone off into a technical
wage slave gig. It's so different now right?
You know, I'm really bad at computers.
Cause I've just never learned how earlier today setting this
thing up, I pushed the wrong button, send everything in the
ozone and it took about 20 minutes to get it fixed
computers. Don't like me.
I don't like computers wristwatches.
Stop on my wrist, you know, it's like, yeah, things break around.
Me my alarm. Clock refuse to go off this
morning, you know. That's II.
Think I have a bad magnet in me or something.
So, anyway, that's how I describe my life in graphic
design. Now, one of the things that
always struck me, is you talk about it humbly.
So, but you talk about your approach, being a DYI, the
do-it-yourself approach. Yeah.
The DIY approach is I grew up really poor so that the ability
to fix a problem with money has never been one.
I've been able to enjoy in my lifetime, right?
Um, so So, DIY was what I grew up with, you know, I was in a
single Pam family, a single-parent household, and I
was the oldest boy. So if you know, the car broke
over here and if something went wrong with the electricity or
the new we ran of heating oil or because we live in a rural area.
Yeah, it was up to me to fix it, you know?
And I'm 13. 14 years old on okay, I still can't fix cars,
they dive into the my break more than I fix.
Well, I'm sorry. That is the way I grew up.
This is my life and the idea of being able to, you know, fix
things with a new computer program.
Well, how much do those computer things cost?
You know, I just, I do with my hands.
That's what I learned to do. And that's what I do.
Everything still with, I scan it in and colorize it.
Do the digital pre-press because printing pretty old-school
offset is gone. Now, it's all digital.
The result is that I have to have somebody to basically do my
A pre-press for me, just like I used to have a darkroom,
strippers set up my film, although I did a lot of that
myself as well. So DIY is just how you do this
stuff. I don't quite understand the
whole technological interfaces being that important.
Now, when you think about it is you start at kind of using the
poster. As as the platform you did your
first poster. Am I right at 15?
It's like I was in high school in high school.
Yeah. Junior.
High School. Actually, I saw that must have
been Not 15. You know 68.
Yeah. What when was the moment that
you realize that this is where you wanted to go to that, they
didn't have a moment. Maybe it just happened on its
own. I didn't plan this as a career
choice at all. I just became it.
I just found myself doing it already posters I started
collecting a see. I started off as a comic book
kid, you know, like monster magazines.
That's a Mad Magazine. I was never a sports kid because
I didn't have a dad. I still don't know how to play
basketball, but I have had baseball explain to me and now I
am fascinated by it, but the deal is that I kind of grew up
with in, with their own record. Company come through record
covers and hip underground music became cool in the 60s.
They keep moving. You know, I started buying
record covers and looking at these things.
And that's when I started collecting psychedelic, posters,
like, Avalon, Ballroom, and Fillmore posters when I was a
little kid, he could find those things in head shops, hippie
shops, you know, even in places like Tacoma Washington and I
would find them and buy them and hang in my room and it kind of
evolved from there into wanting, to do my own posters.
I've done a lot of posters but that certainly isn't the A point
of my career, I've done a lot of record covers.
I've probably done. I've done over 400 45 covers
alone you know then God knows I think I've done an equal number
of LPS and then CDs Lord knows. So I mean I've cranked out when
you treasure only $50 a pop you gotta do a lot of work to make
Grant, you know? So I mean it's like these are
all bands that when I was working with them were living in
their parents. Basements kind of things we're
not rich Superstars, you know, I've never done a major league.
Record cover for a major league band on a major label.
I've all the stuff I've been done has been done for this
guy's record label that he has in his basement down the street.
So, the deal in plus, you know, all the work I do for the Post
earring, has been for Community. I've always done an awful lot of
nonprofit Irina for years before the, The Rock scene exploded in
Seattle. I was doing loads and loads of
theater, and arts, posters for the pro bono organizations, the
stuff. I just found, I love the form
and it all stems back to that feel more poster.
And in comic book, right? Upbringing When I decided I
wanted to be a graphic designer. I was already one when I
decided, like I said, I discovered the term when I was
in college reading, a magazine. Nobody can go look up the word
graphic and you know the graphic arts is even changed me to the
graphic artist mean printing. You know, when AIG a was
founded, the American Institute of graphic arts.
It was a printing Arts organization.
Now, we do graphic design. Sign on a computer and there's
no printing involved and yet we have this organization, you
know, it's it all changes. Everything changes is the only
constant in life is change its change in one of the things that
we know it's constant but it's still always a source of fear if
we admit it or not the the notice of change.
So question for you what what InDesign scares you what in the
work you're always driven. Point nothing after 50 years,
should be near, get on this wall.
You know, it's like and okay. And I got to be honest every
single project I get. I'm, I have huge amount of
doubts, whether I can do this, it doesn't matter whether it's a
logo for a good guy, down the street or whether it's a lord, I
don't have major league clients. Very often anyway.
It doesn't matter how big or small Small.
It is. I go through this incredible
doubt and then I go through an enormous amount of
procrastination and Stage Fright, right?
But I've also trained myself over the decades to do this work
on an instinct level like a non conscious level, I think the
creative process is an unconscious or subconscious
process. And I've learned how to exercise
that muscle so that even though I go through this Panic face,
When I finally sit down to do thing, stuff comes out my hands
and it's already fully thought out.
And that's basically how I've learned to do graphic design.
I fill my head with as much information as I can about a
project Panic for a couple of weeks.
Then when I finally forced myself to sit down and put
something out on the on the table, it's already there.
It's like magic. Now what a 50 years to learn how
to do it they try to do it right when things I To talk about it.
I thought it was great. When we, we spoke about your
experience early on going to interviews with your portfolio.
I still do it. Yeah, I still have to do it.
Yeah. Fine.
Jewelry event itself Peter. Yeah, well, my, you know, to
begin with I've always kind of been this way.
I mean, I wasn't always covered with tattoos and, you know,
talking quite. So, frankly, like I do now but,
you know, when I was younger, I was You know, working class kid
that had gone to college and was trying to make it in a
professional field that was run by unprofessional.
So, I mean, the layers of confusion involved going to
portfolio interviews. I mean, I've been interviewed, I
show my portfolio to the some of the biggest names in the
industry. And I've also, you know, show my
portfolio to the guy who ran the small Theater Company down the
street for free, you know, so these people you don't know what
you're walking into, you know. Who these people are.
And in my case, I was doing 45 portfolio, you showings a day
for months and years, trying to get a job and nobody would hire
me. But I'd walk into these meetings
and I might walk into a board room, full of like Bankers, you
know, the the classic stuffed shirt terrified freaking people
sitting at this giant table like you'd see in a movie or
something and then I'm 15 minutes later I go.
Another portfolio and I'm in an mou not a loft space with a
bunch of long-haired hippie old hippies you know, gray long,
hair dressed in Paisley and die die.
And it's like how do you dress for a day of portfolio?
Showings like that, you just kind of shoot for the middle and
cross your fingers but you just not going to see, you know, I
finally after a while just quit, trying to predict who I was
going to talk to in a set up accordingly.
I just decided just going to be me because the other side of the
coin is, I've also looked at thousands of portfolios over the
years in my capacity as a designer and art director and a
project manager. All blah, blah blah.
You you end up getting to know all the you you see other
people's presentations and you learn just as much from that I
also taught. So I mean I also dealt with a
lot of students and When you, somebody hires you and this is
how I found myself doing. I really wasn't hiring their
work. I just hiring them, right?
And if somebody came in and was like some new rotting real
withdrawn thing that was, you know, yeah, I don't know.
I just want to be an artist, you know, those kind of guys just
turned me off. Those just me the next day.
I'll next room. May think that's that.
That's exactly what he's looking for, you know.
But if I could talk to a person and they had is something
there's always something. Somebody does, right?
That's one thing. I learned is a teacher.
There's no such thing as somebody who can't do anything
at all. They are you all you have to do
is find what they do, well, and focus on that and you'll watch a
flower open. So, finding something that I
would hire them to do was always an option, but it is, whether I
could work with this person, whether I can trust this person.
Whether this person was gonna walk out in the middle of a
tantrum on me, you know which you know, a lot of designers
We're pretty erotic, bunch of people were pretty broken before
we even go into this field, you know, we make these choices for
reasons. So, I mean, there's a lot of
designers have gone through a lot of terrible experiences in
their life, just professionally. And so there are some of them
who can be very difficult myself?
Were just I got a huge reputation for being difficult
to work with. I'm an asshole or really it's
perfect. You.
Yeah, that's the, anybody they'll tell you all.
He's got an art Chantry horror story, but that also has to do
with being around for 15 years. The deal is is that that's what
I'm actually hiring the presentation of the work as long
as they've got something in there that I can spot that I
want to use, you know, they were safe but if they're going to be
a fussbudget weirdo or if they're going to be two slacker
or if they're drunk, you know or stone.
God, I remember the first time I graphic designer smoked a joint
front of me. I was just flabbergasted, you
know, because I thought we were all professionals here and he
goes, you don't mind. Do you lights went up and it's
just like I had no idea. Then I found out how many Design
Studios are friends for cocaine trafficking it was like it's a
good place to hide cash. It was real disillusion name.
Let me tell you who I began to find out what a sleazy
businesses. It's like you're dealing with a
lot of sleaze balls and that's welcome to American capitalism,
you know, so that nothing prepares you for the experience
of it. I think you got to go in with a
smile on your face and think of it as entertainment.
So let's talk about the other extreme.
Let's talk about the elevated space.
When if we have you come in and really smiled and felt like you
your work, hit it out the park. And an assistant for the client.
This is just for you to even if it's beyond was just my well,
yeah, you know, everything I do has an element of it for me,
right? I mean there's always something
in it that I'm trying new something experimental.
Maybe it's a printing technique that I've not quite mastered
yet, you just or might be a literary reference to something.
I like that. I throw into a design that's
only there for me, you know. Those are the things I find
myself. Living for when it comes out and
it's there. And I look at it and I smile
like, oh yeah, weird. Yeah, happy clients.
Well, all my clients are always Terribly Happy.
I do get fired once in a while, but that's a different story
that's their fault. The deal is, is that when it
comes to clients, there's always more clients.
You know, there's just always more clients.
Just you can always survive on. Something there.
So I mean you don't have I don't think we should worry so much
about. The client as you should worry
about the project you're doing, because that project is going to
be there with your name on it. Long.
After that clients gone away long.
After that client might not even be alive, you know, 100 years
from now that poster is going to be there and it's got your name
at the bottom and nobody knows really what it was for, right?
And you got to live with that. I mean everything you produce
is, your progeny is your heritage.
So I mean, you got to have that element of yourself in it or
it's just not real. Which brings me around corporate
logos ever do a poster. And you have to put about a mess
of corporate logos who gave sponsorships in the client.
Always thinks that one way to get a corporate sponsorship.
Has put their logo on the posters, they get the free
advertising, so it's NASCAR Experience.
Poster. Okay, it was for a pool
tournament in a Tavern. But it had a lot of rock stars
involved in it, so a lot of Corporations want to and they
basically the corporate donations became their profit
Center. 36 logos. Wow, I basically ended up
designing a poster that was tall and skinny in the top half was
the poster which is just a black and white poster.
We're not talking full color crazy, but it was a cheap black
and white poster and the bottom half of the poster is just
corporate logos. Literally it was a 50-50
Arrangement. That's how many friggin logos
and that's what I decided that this was really stupid.
I'm not putting corporate unless they're paying me because he had
to ride on an art. Chantry poster all the way into
the art museum for 100 years. Always, paying me for that bad
space, the associated with my name, you know, you can play the
game, any way you want, but you got to have, you got to have
personal standards, because you gotta have a few And you gotta
live by those rules and tried do your best or else.
You're going to end up being one of those scumbags.
So you know, I'm going to go back to when you first started
talking about your first career though that you want it to be
for lack of a better phrase. You want to be Indiana Jones.
All right? You wanted to seek Adventure.
You wanted to find artifacts well I see what you're saying.
Okay. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Well not, when I see your work. Now you're always kind of
picking up things cultural artifacts along the way.
Oh yeah. No.
About pal that experience because it's so much a part of
what you do now. Well, I mean I really wanted to
be an archaeologist when I was a little kid sassy and by
egyptology and all that good stuff.
And so I when I went to college, I wanted to be a scientist and I
thought, you know, archaeology was science, which it's not
really it's something else. What I began to realize was,
well, I was already doing that stuff.
I was collecting comic books but you know, I was collecting
things, I collected stamps, I could bottle caps, I got and
Rocks. I collected you know I just
collected crap. I mean I come from a family of
Hoarders, okay? You know, it runs in the blood,
it is genetic fault. So the deal is that I was
already Gathering Collections and as I went into this, if
drifted into graphic design through my collections
essentially and I want to be an anthropologist I want to be an
archaeologist a dig up ancient civilizations.
I saw I was doing the same thing, right?
You know, every what was the difference who I was doing?
The only difference was, is that the anthropology in the
archaeology? I was doing was contemporary,
you know. I was digging into last week
comic book that just came out versus, you know, a 5000 year
old pyramid. Quick, tell me who designed the
first pyramid that becomes my interest point, right?
Who do that comic book last? That I bought that spied issues
Spider-Man, you know, Johnny remitted, when he was great.
How many people Who he is anymore, Imhotep?
Would design the first pyramid and he was one of my heroes when
I was a little kid, you know? So I mean it was this kind of
confusion of now and then archaeology versus contemporary.
I began to figure out as I was working on posters that you
know, all these images were actually just kind of like
words, right? I mean, we all know what yellow
means, we all know what red means.
I mean, we can't Maybe describe what it means but we think about
it and we have this reaction, right?
It's the same thing with, you know, shapes and textures and
colors and and and then you start to get into iconography
and actual images. You know, we all know what a
heart means of use a heart. That's saying something dramatic
weather. If the heart has a dagger in it
means something else entirely especially if you're from tattoo
underground culture, which has its own definitions.
You know, you start going into this and you begin to realize
you're doing a little language fun, right?
This is this is In fact, words themselves, a little graphic
squiggles. There was a letter, alphabets
are little black and white squiggles that when put together
in certain combinations have meaning for us, you know, this
combination means table, right there.
So, I mean, it's like we and we all know this, and we get to a
point where it's so instinctive, we don't even realize we're
reading this constantly around us and that realization that
you're actually not. Not drawing pictures, you're
writing stories, right? Is was the transition point that
aha moment for me, it was like, oh, and that's when I began to
just include all this crap that I've got in my head that I'm
utterly fascinated by subcultures.
I'm a dirty fascinated by pop culture.
I'm utterly fascinated by ancient history.
I mean, I just I'm fascinated by this.
This spiral of meaning that the human animal imposes on his
environment, you know, it's like you see this thing right here,
this okay, you know, nature sees that as a rock, okay?
You see this this coin right here, right, that's metal.
Nature sees this as a rock. It's just a rock.
It's, you get tossed out there, it becomes just part of the
environment. Like this rock.
We have taken this rock and melted it and done all this
imagery and shape and meaning to it and it's no longer a rock.
Hmm. It's a coin and it was designed
by a designer, you know, and designed kind of looks like art.
Therefore we teach at an art departments, when it should be
taught in its own department. And Fine Art should be a Area of
the graphic design world, and it's not the other way around.
So, So basically, yeah, I've obviously lost the point of your
question a long time ago. I might get there, but if it's
like this is these are the kinds of ideas.
I'm constantly working with the whole structure of the Fine
Design world and hierarchy and rising up in a corporate ladder
and I'll, that know, that's real.
None of that even exists. I've been doing this for 50
years and there has never been a ladder for me to climb.
And I finally just went on On and just created my own world
and that's when end up getting any edgy metal yet.
Another rock. So Well you might my best my
when it comes to portfolios is be authentic.
Be who you are you know and as far as the stuff you put in your
portfolio Take Your Best Shot. You never going to hit it.
Dead on. You know, you're going to walk
into a corporate office of bankers and you've got a punk
poster, you know, you just have to cross your fingers that these
people know what they're looking at, but there's nobody ever
does. I mean, it's like even aiga
thinks of me as a poster artist primarily that's maybe about a
quarter. My output over the years, I've
probably done more logos that neither thing.
Nobody talks about me as being a logo designer.
You know, that's just other people's perceptions of what
they have actually seen. You know, I think the reason
they know my posters is because I used to enter design contest
for years and years and that's what I'd entered because we were
spectacular logos, you know, I wrote sometimes enter those but
you know, nobody knows about those.
You know, you ever seen my letterhead collection that I've
designed no because nobody even knows what a letter.
It is anymore, right? Remember letterheads remember
how nice those things? Give me that they were beautiful
especially when he started getting some exotic printing on
them and papers. And yeah, that's a lost art.
I'm going to ask you a question and I'm a pause before I ask it
because I know what I'm about to unleash.
What gets you fired up today? Nothing.
I'm thinking all the time. Yeah, it's just everything's
off. What gets me fired up these
days. Peace and quiet.
I mean one of the things about my career is it's never been
dull. I have I have seen things that
you could not believe I've interacted with people still
alien that. I kind of wonder if they're even
from the same Planet. I worked on projects that are so
far out there that I I mean you have no idea what I've
experienced right. Now, when I had an afternoon
with absolutely nothing to do and I can just sit in the yard
and stare blankly into space that really excites me.
Yeah, that's that's rare. That's rare time.
You know, it's like I'm pushing 70.
I'm almost 70 years old. I still, I never made enough
money to retire. I'm still working and I'll be
working till I drop. You know, that I just got no
choice. I have to make rent, I have to
eat. I have to eat.
That's just the way it is. I Chose a path that was not
going to make me Rich. It's like I didn't go into, I
didn't move to New York and try to get a job at a corporation.
Paying me six seven figures a year you know?
Because right I knew they'd never hire me.
I already learned that lesson have a question for you.
What three Works would you put in your portfolio today?
Let's be honest, I wouldn't put record covers or posters in my
work. I think I would stay, I wouldn't
my own portfolio of my own work that I do you interested in
doing. I would try to promote myself as
a logo and typography designer, not a type designer.
But, you know, person who does interesting lettering, not a
calligrapher because I don't do calligraphy, but, you know, the
kind of interesting kind of fucked up.
Typography that I'm really good at because I've been doing it
for 50 years, right? As opposed to people who use
computer fonts. That's a Miss use that word.
By the way, fonts of distressed typography make it look like
punk rock, which is all just patently phony.
I do stuff that looks real, you know, I don't know if I can
White, explain that difference without going off on a diatribe.
Anyway, I would probably have a portfolio be entirely black and
white at this point. You know frankly my color work
although it's sophisticated in its own way, is also very
Primal. I use a lot of primary colors
and then I do screens usually to mix and match and create new
colors. Do that.
I learned from my Robin, with offset printing over the
decades, nowadays, kids sit down, at a computer and you can
push all these buttons and do any color in the rainbow and
then some, you know, and color is on everything.
Nobody even designs black and white logos anywhere, because
they're never used in black and white that you can go full color
on a logo. And it just typical that was
impossible when I was starting out that was just too expensive,
you know? So I mean, basically, whenever
technology takes a giant Giant step forward.
I think it died and step back is like it's, you know, when things
start getting, you know, it's like things have gotten so so
crazy and sophisticated and frankly looks so Stamped Out and
off the shelf and and simple-minded, I tend to want to
take a step back. It's like every time can
printing takes a big step forward.
I'm already back to potatoes stamps.
I'm actually looking at potato stamps as I'm you genre to
explain in graphic design, you know, it's like, I can potato
stabbed with something you can't be done on the computer.
And what else have I got to offer a client.
If you can have a kid out of school, do anything on a
computer and it looks just like graphic design even though it's
really not. What about why would they hire
me? What did you spend all that
money to hire me? Are you crazy Meghan?
You can same amount of money you can hire for kids out of college
working at minimum wage and set him up with some computers.
You can pay for the hardware and the Software for the mountain.
I you'd be spending a freelancer, that's ridiculous.
So what do I have to offer? Well, try and do a potato stamp
on a computer screen. I rest my case.
So bob la the art. I have this question for you.
You don't shy away from challenges.
What advice do you have for designers?
Multiple stations of their journey in seeking challenges?
Follow your interests. What do you Joseph Campbell?
Say, follow your Muse. Well, what is your Muse?
What do you interested in if you're not interested in the
work? No client.
Isn't there going to? It comes through, its it, your
writing and if you're writing, if if you're right, really into
fantasy fiction with dragons and Dungeons and crap and you
sitting down trying to write a love story set in.
The 60s hippie era or something, you know, it's like it's not
gonna work, you know, stick to what you love.
Stick to what you do. Be true to yourself.
Don't lie to yourself know who you are, and go out and do that.
And that will take you on a path.
She'll never imagine. It's like I mentioned earlier
about when I was over that. Did the decades, the I think
designers I've known that were really good and I mean good
people who were just they had, they had it down, they knew
everything, they knew all the ins and outs their history.
They knew all the techniques. They all that.
I would say, most of those people were trained in other
fields entirely and drifted into graphic design by accident.
I knew people who were like, you know, obviously I knew a dentist
who became a great typography. /.
I knew a guy who came from a family of sponge divers and had
a degree in biochem and he walked away from it become a
graphic designer because he liked it.
I mean it's like there was a big period in Seattle where because
it was so much competition for freelance work that the better
you personally looked the more chance you had of getting the
work because clients are people, you know.
And there were Look at skin this culture.
Anyway, fashion models fashion models took over graphic design
for a while in Seattle because they just looked great.
They people who were X fashion models, who was about four or
five of them in Seattle that were graphic designers.
Freelance graphic designers and doing.
Well, they didn't play up the fact that they used to do work
as a fashion model, rather, they that was their asset, and they
use that to wander into that field and became successful
graphic. Designers.
I know you guys are professional weightlifters.
What are some of the really weird ones?
Anyway yeah my point is is that these people aren't necessarily
trained in graphic design at Yale.
I mean, Yale, what do they know? God there, we act there
somewhere. What do they know about what's
going on in the west coast of America?
This is where it's at those guys back there, your to European you
to Old World, really. Hell, you been?
It's so let's talk about location and where you are and
community. So I didn't need to come to you.
Yeah. I built my entire career.
In a town. Okay?
You know, you think of the United States of America, you
know, take the map United States of America and you cut it just
into four big sections. Great section has its big cities
and it's nowhere. There's its rural areas, right?
You get into the Northwest will wander into of the United
States. They used to have this thing in
the beginning of the old McNeil. Where there Neil layer NewsHour
on PBS, where they started off the program with a nighttime map
of the United States, a little white dots where all, their
their stations were around the country.
And I used to be struck by it because when you start looking
at it, you know, the West, the east coast is all white.
You need to get down to Southern California.
It's all white and then the Chicago area in the midwest up
there, Detroit that gets all white.
You get up to Seattle where I live, right?
Wait up there. In the corner and you go through
Montana Idaho, you know, call her up.
It's just black, it's black. And then there's just one little
white dot up in the corner, all by itself and that Seattle, it
was like an island in the middle of and everybody from that
entire quadrant to the United States.
When they move to the big city, they went to the local big city,
which was Seattle. So we have with these weird
factions from all these different It's in cities and
areas that the kind of Beacon clicks within the structure of
it. So I got exposed to an awful lot
of people from DC and in New York and California, they last
about two years and they had back, right?
I mean, when you move to Podunk, you know, after being in the big
city, it's a tough adjustment, most people can't do it.
Most of them moved back, so I it was a small, there's no
publishing appear. There's no music industry,
there's very little Arts. There's, you know, the banks
were always a major source of income doing Bay peripherals,
right? Small businesses, you know,
dentist plumbers, things like that.
Now, that is what the workload was and if I wanted to do really
cool stuff that means had to do stuff for the Arts and they had
no money at all. I mean, I was doing posters.
I mean I was doing them for free for years and even trying doing
deals. Trainers to get them free
printing you know designing letterhead for The Print Shop.
You go to the free printing so they can have poster.
That was the two colors silkscreen job that buy an
outfit that used to do for sale signs and campaign yard signs.
I mean it's like this is the level of work so I was trying I
was having to hustle so hard in every aspect of doing this work
because I loved it. Right.
Um that I ended up with an education that was Far broader
than you get in Academia, right? But I began to realize how
limited the academic. Information base was, it's like,
I remember going AC. I've also done lots of lectures,
all over the world and I went to RISD Mac.
Yeah, they dragged me up to RISD, okay?
To do our workshop and do a lecture.
And so I went up there and I did my lecture and then the next day
was the workshop and the kids I call them kids but they were
pretty old, they were adults. They'd already been through.
They already had a degree in a related field before they could
even enter the design program. I mean, that's, that's how
serious these and these guys are all ready to graduate from these
were the and they were smart. My God, they were crackerjack.
They were just amazing. They they were just really this
is the future of graphic design. Here is is risky.
You know. This is like one of the most
serious and Important design schools in the country.
Also, one of the most expensive and So I looked at that in the,
the group of, there's about five students, they're all graduate
students. I said well you've seen my work
at my lecture last night you must have some questions.
Is there anything in specific? You want me to try and cover
here in this setting, right? And they looked at each other
and one woman stepped forward. Apparently they had met the
night before and organized and selected.
The leader. Can you imagine that?
And she stepped forward. And she looked at her and she
goes well actually we did have one question.
We really wanted to have you talk tell us about, can you
explain the difference between offset and Looks green.
Wow, there is no key. At seriously that person
seriously, these kids have been going to school for at least
eight years, majoring in becoming fine, graphic
designers, they could all draw. They could all do form, whatever
that is, they could, you know, they knew understood typography,
they they just knew all this stuff, but they didn't, they,
but they're trained as painters and have never touched brush to
Canvas. They had no idea what they were
designing for. What process actually produced
when they were designing. That's just read.
This is what this is, what academic education is like.
Can we name that? How many when you went to
school? Did you ever go?
Look at a printing. Press, you know, I learned
everything. I know on a printing, press, not
from running it, but from standing there and asking
questions that was my classroom, right?
That's what we do and doesn't think it's all done in this
weird abstract, Fine, Art fashion and then make it so is
like missing the Old. So anyway.
Yeah, yeah, I forgot what your question was.
I'm really good at just flying with my gibberish especially
with a lot of copy. I want to show you something
right. Last time we talked I told you
about a guy named Josh Higgins who used to be the basis in the
punk, rock, band called fluff. Yeah, and how he became Obama's
design director for the 2012 campaign?
Yes, he was the guy who did this is my coffee mug.
Oh wow. And this is the this is the
famous mug that has Obama's birth certificate printed on the
back. That was one of Josh's projects
you should really talk to this guy.
I mean, he's got stories anyway, ask me another question.
I ask another another question. So my favorite color is black.
It's what do I look for in a girl psychosis?
Him to keep you out of trouble because because I know your wife
was your Tech assistant. This morning-- she come in and
punch me right in the bed look again we don't want that lack
one thing my re is not is a fool.
There you go. So what's the one worst best
piece of advice? You have for our designers today
we're getting ready for the bouquet.
That's a question. I get asked a lot.
I do have a standard smartass reply.
Yep get ready. Andrew smartass one.
Okay then give me a legit. One thing everybody should know
is carry a gun at all times because you're going to need it
out there. You don't know what you're
walking and do, there's a few of those guys I should have
plugged. It's like, after 50 years of
doing this stuff on a freelance basis, working with everything
from drug dealers to rock, stars to corporate CEOs.
Some of the experiences I've had the level of incompetence and
debauchery and Corruption. There's good people.
Yes. But the other side of the coin,
endless unbelievable American Business, is really, really
Sleazy, and you are going to learn about it on the inside as
this. So, you know, maybe you don't
need to actually carry. A pistol into your corporate
board meetings, but have one in your brain have carrying carry
one figuratively in your emotional makeup, because, you
know, you don't have any idea what you're looking at.
You don't know what you're in for at all.
It's never dull. I can definitely say that.
I have had experiences that You're going to death threats.
I'm a graphic designer and I've got the death threats on four.
Occasions death threats. I'm a graphic designer.
You got to be kidding. No!
Hey, things have happened. But then, you know I also work
with, you know, pimps and punk rockers and Bink.
Presidents. You know, real scumbags.
The so tell me what has been your favorite industry to work
with on the positive side? But what's been, what's going
on? The positive side, my favorite
industry is American small business.
Little guys who respect what you do, the only credit line they've
got is paying their bills corporations, do everything
possible to not pay their bills, they have entire divisions.
Robin, bankers, and lawyers bookkeepers who will do anything
to not. Give you any money back, they'll
owe things I've encountered. You know, II found it even drug
dealers, have have a code. I mean, when you're doing in
rock and roll, you're going to end up dealing with a lot of
people who back rock bands that are actually drug dealers.
That's just one of the ugly secrets of the music industry.
I mean, don't forget who were talking about and the deal is
that those guys have to have their codes to, they have to
have an honor System or nobody will work with them.
They will go out of business is like Bob Dylan's famous.
Into the live outside the law. You must be honest.
There is a certain level of Truth to that, it doesn't mean
when push comes to shove. You're not out the window
immediately. But on a day-to-day kind of keep
things functioning. Level honesty is much more
common in American small business than it is in the
larger Fields. I know we in that the New York
scene is always sold corporations as the salvation of
graphic design, and that's the only real work that matters and
that's what they cover in all their award annuals.
And that's what they show in their In the scenario thing, but
99.9% of American businesses, small business and that's where
all the most beautiful stuff comes up.
Take a look at those. I don't really look at designing
those anymore, but look at them. And look at the stuff that's
really good, you know, how much of that comes out of Coca-Cola.
How much is it comes out of an Ron, you know, that stuff is
coming out of like, Fred the plumber down the street, who
just wants to attract more business for his little
business. Here is a little shop, you know,
that's, that's the stuff where? You want to be, that's where the
beauty is. I mean in, yeah, I've worked
with them all and at that's still the best stuff.
They think you're God's, they think, they think graphic
designers, and magicians, computers have kind of made
everybody. A graphic designer to a very
serious degree. So you're going to run into that
problem even with small business people, but the truth is, they
still think we're magicians. And that's kind of where you
need to be in order to sell. Language.
Um I think you know that's a great way to end our
conversation today. My friend for everyone to know.
It's designers you are magicians, you are magic and
that's what's in the absolute learn.
Your craft, dammit learn, learn the language of magic.
Sleight of hand is very that. Your domain is very important in
this thing. How do you going to move things
around in front of your client for the proper impact?
Very important? Well, I Alright, thank you for
not disappointing. And continuing for what I said
this was going to be an Unapologetic.
Uncentered uncensored. Damn right.
Authentic tragic. Hey, I got all the coffee for
this early in the morning with us to hang out.
Yeah, you come and get up at 6:00.
Yeah, I know. But you did it got me here for
us and I appreciate that. Yeah, I hope you do.
Dead. You are the best.
Thank you for continuing to be authentically.
You authentically me. Yeah.
Wish us a design like this at all.
I'm you know, I don't I hide in closets and if you have me
coming pull you out and bring you out in public.
Damn it. Well, dare you.
Thank you for coffee for joining us.
This is an incredible start to our portfolio, Festival.
You thinking about the ways you can challenge yourself in your
work? Work and really the value of
just being you are no yeah, enjoy your work.
Or don't do it period. Don't do it just for the money
or you're a fool, you know? Here we go.
So once again the words of art are challenging inspirational
and important for us to report. Yeah I need that.
I need that smile of a magician back Ray.
Thank you all for joining us for this guy incentive.
Please check Arts workout and the Louvre Smithsonian the
Museum of Modern Art or just online.
Thank you all. Yeah just just do a Google
search on Name. Oh, I also blog on Facebook.
I'm helping those guys make a, what who is the zugerberg?
Yeah, I saw him once. Anyway, that's another story and
will have a size zugerberg once so they're mine.