1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,520 People say, well, what would you have done differently? 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,800 We went to school and I say, well, I would have taken an 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,440 acting class in a public speaking class, in a comedy 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,640 class, and, you know, all these things where I had to get up in 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,160 front of people and put myself out there. 6 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,000 So I became comfortable with it. And like I said, it took me a 7 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,840 long time to do that. But now it's a big part of what 8 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,680 I do, whether it's going out and speaking, doing something like 9 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,200 this, standing in front of a bunch of executives, whatever 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,840 it's, it's just feeling comfortable and confident with 11 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,040 you are and being able to communicate ideas and values 12 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,240 that way. And then I think that's really 13 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:39,640 important for people. Hello and welcome to the AIG 14 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,800 Design Podcast. We are the official podcast for 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,200 the oldest professional association for design. 16 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,360 And my name is Lee Sean Huang. I'm the Senior Director of 17 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,480 Learning and Programs here at AIGA and the host and producer 18 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,400 of the show, where we talk about professional development and 19 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,960 creative growth for designers. First, I want to take the chance 20 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,320 to give a special thanks to our AIGA members. 21 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,040 Your support, your membership makes programming like this 22 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,720 podcast available to the entire design community. 23 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,800 So if you're not yet an AIGA member, you can learn more and 24 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,000 join us at aiga.org. Or you can follow us and share 25 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,040 your thoughts with us on social media at AIGA Design. 26 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,920 Our guest for this episode is Robert Brunner, Chief Designer 27 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,200 at Beats by Dre and founder and partner at Ammunition. 28 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,360 With more than 40 years of industrial design experience, 29 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,920 including as a partner at Pentagram, Robert has been named 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,440 one of Fast Company's Most Creative People in business and 31 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,360 has built iconic products including Beats by Dre, Lyfts in 32 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,440 car Icons, and the countertop Point of Sale square stand. 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,280 We're going to take a look at Robert's incredible career 34 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,560 journey, discuss how he builds products that stand out and have 35 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,840 purpose, and explore how we can build a culture of faith in 36 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,320 design no matter what company we're working at. 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,200 Robert, welcome to the AIGA Design podcast. 38 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,040 Well, thank you, Lisa. I'm really happy to be here. 39 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,320 Awesome. Let's jump right into things. 40 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,640 Great. You've been working in product 41 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,680 design for so long. Yes, on iconic products that we 42 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,080 see all the time. And these are with huge 43 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,840 companies like Apple and with Pentagram, your former agency. 44 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,880 Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? 45 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,520 How did you get here? How did you get into the 46 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,680 industry? And yeah, how did you find so 47 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,000 much success along the way? That's probably a long answer. 48 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,160 So I'll try and I'll try and give this short of it, but it's, 49 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,960 it's an interesting one. You know, I'll, I'll go back to 50 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,160 actually growing up because one of the advantages you have when 51 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,600 you do get further along is you can look through the, the lens 52 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:38,520 of your past and you realize, oh, that's how I got here right 53 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,280 in my family, I was the youngest, my father was a very 54 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,840 accomplished engineer. He actually developed a lot of 55 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,920 the mechanical technology in the first disk drives at IBM. 56 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,280 He was a consummate tinkerer builder. 57 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,840 He built boats in our driveway, just always building something. 58 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,280 My mother, who originally was started out as a as a fashion 59 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,840 model, but then became a homemaker, but was always a 60 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,320 craftsperson and an artist, was constantly painting, constantly 61 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,480 making things, constantly redecorating the house. 62 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,200 It was, you know it. Yeah. 63 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,320 My, I used to joke that we never had the same Christmas tree, 64 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,840 right. Every, the Christmas tree was a 65 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,280 piece of performance art as far as my mother was concerned. 66 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,960 And so that was the environment I grew up in, right? 67 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,280 Everything was a project. You know, I didn't really 68 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,880 realize it at the time. I just thought that's the way 69 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,040 all households were. But that was, that was my 70 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,200 household. And so, you know, went through 71 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,320 high school and you get to the end of high school and you meet 72 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,920 with the career counselor. And the career counselor looked 73 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,240 at my transcripts and said, well, you're good in math and 74 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,040 science, and your father's an engineer, so you should be an 75 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,880 engineer. So I said, OK, that's fine. 76 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,840 What he did, he didn't really look at, which is kind of an 77 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,600 indictment at how I did in art or how I did in shop or anything 78 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,040 like that that required my hands or my creative thinking, which I 79 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,840 excelled in. But, you know, I thought, well, 80 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,720 OK, engineering, I originally I thought, well, I'll be a civil 81 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,040 engineer 'cause that's, you know, I had this romantic notion 82 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,600 of building bridges, right? That would be really, really 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,560 cool. And then I, as I started school, 84 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,920 somebody told me, no man, all, all the money's in electrical 85 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,840 engineering, which was true. And so I switched to become an E 86 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,280 major, but hated, just just hated it. 87 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,720 I went through the first year of core engineering. 88 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,600 My father loved it, right? He's like helping me with my, my 89 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,840 calculus problems and stuff. So but I decided this isn't 90 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,040 right for me. I'm going to pay more attention 91 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,560 to who I am. So I went over to the art 92 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,960 department and I'd heard of this thing called graphic design. 93 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,160 Actually, I, I was some form of commercial art, you know, that I 94 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,560 didn't really know a lot about, but knew that that's what people 95 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,000 did. Wandered into the art building 96 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,520 and opened the door. And immediately, this was at San 97 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,880 Jose State University and was immediately presented with this 98 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,440 display cabinet full of industrial design work, sketches 99 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,640 and models and renderings. And, you know, I just, I don't 100 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,880 know how long it stood there. It was probably a long time 101 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,160 looking at all this and thought, OK, this makes perfect sense, 102 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,920 right? Because I, I love art. 103 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,800 I love building things. I spend more time in the garage 104 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,400 working on my bike than anything else, you know, So this is what 105 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,120 I want to do. Went over and changed my major. 106 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,800 Pissed my father off, right? He thought he didn't think much 107 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,400 of designers, classic engineering sort of viewpoint 108 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,840 that, you know, basically in his world, industrial designers made 109 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:40,960 his job more difficult. And, you know, he made this 110 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,600 comment to me. I'll never forget it was, well, 111 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,040 they're the guys that specify the paint and it usually peels 112 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,800 off. That's what he said, you know, I 113 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,000 said that, you know, but undaunted and feeling a bit 114 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,200 rebellious, I continued forward and just just loved it, loved 115 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,840 everything about design, just, you know, was immersed in it. 116 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,480 You know, I often have told my kids today, when you find that 117 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,800 thing that you are working on in the middle of the night, you 118 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,680 don't care how late it is. You don't care, you know, about 119 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,360 what's going on in the world. You're just doing it. 120 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,480 That's when you found something, right? 121 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,840 That's the thing that will give you purpose and allow you to 122 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:18,520 grow. And so that was what I did. 123 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,680 And so started working in a design firm when I was in 124 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,640 school. I was really fortunate in that 125 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,480 this is a, a company called GVO in Palo Alto, CA. 126 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,960 They're not around anymore. It was one of the larger offices 127 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:34,480 in the Bay Area. It's sort of early Silicon 128 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,440 Valley. And shockingly, I pretty quickly 129 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,880 was working on real projects and as a student. 130 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,120 And by the time I actually got out of school, I was leading 131 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,400 projects, which to me thinking, running a design for bidet, 132 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,160 thinking about giving a graduate, you know, just got out 133 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,640 of school, you know, responsibility on as a lead on 134 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:57,920 the projects. Insane. 135 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,280 But their model was kind of economic. 136 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:02,600 They said, we're, we're paying this guy next to nothing and 137 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,360 he's capable. This makes a lot of sense. 138 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,080 But it, you know, it was really great for me because I learned a 139 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,400 lot. And by the time I was a year or 140 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,120 two out of school, I felt really strong and, and, and confident 141 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,480 in what I could do. And so from that point, I'd 142 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,280 worked with a couple guys at GBO named Gerard Furbichon, Jeff 143 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,800 Smith. We decided to start our own 144 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,640 company, which initially was a company called Interform. 145 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,040 That didn't really work out. And it kind of morphed into 146 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,840 Lunar. And that was really how things 147 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,400 got going. And Lunar, Apple became a client 148 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,680 of ours in at Lunar. And then Apple offered me the 149 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,040 job to become their director of design and it built that 150 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,160 department and the pentagram and ammunition, it was just kind of 151 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,320 everything just seemed to flow. There's a lot that I've learned 152 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,080 along the way. You know, we can dive into that, 153 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,800 but it's that's kind of the the path of how I got to where I am 154 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:53,880 today. That's awesome. 155 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Yeah. I we can totally weave in some 156 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,600 of the lessons that you've learned along the way. 157 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,600 Maybe to just finish up this portion of some of your 158 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,000 background. Can you tell us a little bit 159 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,200 more about ammunition founding that studio and what sets you 160 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,400 all apart and what you do there? I went to Apple, you know, then 161 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,320 really didn't have a design team at that point. 162 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,560 They had a few guys internally and originally I turned down the 163 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,760 job and then I said, OK, well they came back and said what do 164 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,400 you want? That was young and naive. 165 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,640 I didn't save tons of money and I said I want to basically if 166 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,200 any company could support a world class design organization, 167 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,720 it's Apple. So if you want to build that 168 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,679 onion, they said yes. Since we did that, went through, 169 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:40,880 it's about 7 years, you know, became, was successful at that. 170 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,800 Learned an amazing amount. The longer I went on, the 171 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,080 farther I got from being a designer, right? 172 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,400 Just spent more and more time in eight hour meetings with other 173 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,000 executives, you know, where I only really needed to be there 174 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,080 1/2 an hour, but I didn't know when that half an hour would be, 175 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,440 right? So felt like I was atrophying. 176 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,480 So I decided I wanted to go back into consulting. 177 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,880 I was going to start my own company. 178 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,360 And that's when I was approached by Pentagram. 179 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,680 So if this makes sense, Pentagram, you know, was always 180 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,680 something I aspired to because of Kenneth Grange and his work 181 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,840 and did that for 10 years. That was amazing. 182 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,440 But so I'm working the ammunitions. 183 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,360 But what I discovered was that Eva Pentagram was fantastic and 184 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,920 the people I worked with were by far the best at what they did in 185 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,840 the world. What I did in product design, 186 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,800 real hardcore product development. 187 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,200 I was the only partner in the company that was doing that work 188 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:33,440 and as part of an organization was largely driven by graphic 189 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,320 design professionals, few architects. 190 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,960 Again, amazing people, but it's kind of a boutique within a 191 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,440 boutique, right? And it's. 192 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,280 Hard to be the only one to. Yeah. 193 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,800 And I was seeing this shift in how industrial design was being 194 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,040 viewed, especially in the technology business, where it'd 195 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:57,160 gone from this sort of necessary evil or, you know, styling to 196 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:01,360 really many companies, largely because of Apple viewing 197 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,520 industrial design as a, as a core competency they needed to 198 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,160 have. And, you know, felt like I 199 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,560 really wasn't quite positioned in the right way to take 200 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:13,360 advantage of that energy that was flowing. 201 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,200 So I'll forget, I was trying to decide what to do. 202 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,360 And I was on my honeymoon with, in Nicaragua with, with my wife 203 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,840 and we're sitting on the beach and I was still Hemming and 204 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,000 hawing and complaining. And she's just said to me, you 205 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,720 know, more or less I'm paraphrasing, why don't you just 206 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,560 shut up and go start your company and do that. 207 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,360 And so I, I was, so I became a a rare partner who actually quit 208 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,120 from pentagram. Most most partners either were 209 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,960 fired or died. Right, it seems like a forever 210 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,320 kind of job when you were sent to partner a pentagram. 211 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,680 And so, yeah, yeah, you know what shocked everybody? 212 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:52,840 But everybody was really supportive. 213 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,160 And and so I was able to, since I was only one that did what I 214 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,320 did, I was able to take my book of business and really just move 215 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:04,720 it to this new thing. And really why I sort of wove in 216 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,760 Apple and Pentagram because I, I learned some important lessons 217 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,520 in there about product design and really that at it's best, 218 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,680 it's a multidisciplinary process really is about the thing that 219 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:18,640 someone acquires and brings into their life and everything that 220 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,040 they experience with it really adds up to its value. 221 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,920 And that's not just how it looks right or how it feels in your 222 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,520 hand. There's a lot that goes into it 223 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,200 in terms of how they learn about it, you know, how it arrives, 224 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,400 how they learn to use it, how they use it, what happens when 225 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:35,800 it breaks, you know, all these things, right? 226 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,960 So I really wanted to build a multidisciplinary studio, but 227 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,160 with products at the center. And that's, that's what 228 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,840 ammunition became. The other key thing was, you 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,680 know, I had this epiphany one day. 230 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,200 Like most designers, when I get a project, I'm I'm just happy to 231 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,040 get the project, especially if it's a cool one. 232 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,880 And as long as I make enough money to pay myself and my 233 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,880 people, I'm fine, right? I'm cool with that, right? 234 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,360 Let's get this thing, get it done, have a great portfolio 235 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:04,800 piece, have a great time doing it. 236 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,560 And then you see this thing that you've created, go out into the 237 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:12,520 world and create hundreds of millions of dollars of value, 238 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,320 right? And many times based on the lot 239 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:16,880 of the intellectual property you've created. 240 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,280 And I began to wonder is well, is there another economic model 241 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,040 or are there other economic models to work with? 242 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,880 And that was part of the the other idea of ammunition where I 243 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,760 had a few things beats being one of them where where I was really 244 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,960 participating in the economics of the product. 245 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,960 And we were doing a lot of work with early stage companies and 246 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,520 began to look at this idea that using our studio as a tool for 247 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,040 investment, right. So we would begin to sort of 248 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,680 become investors in these start-ups we were working with. 249 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,640 And that really it really changed the way we worked. 250 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,440 It was really interesting. It's not, of course, there's 251 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,640 great economic potential there. But what we found was when we 252 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,200 were integrated into the business, right, literally we 253 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,480 had more ability to affect that business. 254 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,560 Basically, people would take you more seriously and you you 255 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:14,280 weren't just this hired gun or a vendor, right, that comes and 256 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,480 leaves you or someone that's there. 257 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,080 And that and that actually caused us to be better 258 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,960 designers. So that that really sort of what 259 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,800 is what fueled ammunition and sort of this the way we created 260 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,640 the studio and really is, you know, we're actually on our 261 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,840 gosh, we just started our 19th year, which is which is pretty 262 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,880 amazing. Wow, congratulations. 263 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:39,360 We've been exploring the theme of margins here on the podcast 264 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,760 this season. And one thing that we've been 265 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,840 thinking about is how in society today, in our world today, we 266 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,200 have a ton of products to choose from, right? 267 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,920 There's just so much stuff. We're recording this during 268 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,040 Amazon Day, which they're not a sponsor, but it just thinking 269 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,280 about like all of the stuff that we have and all the shopping 270 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,880 that people do and the comparisons that people do. 271 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,120 So how do you find that creative power to build products that 272 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,920 stand out in the margins that stand out from other products, 273 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,960 given just how crowded the marketplace is these days? 274 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,280 Yeah, it is challenging. And there's, there's at times I 275 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,200 feel very bad because my profession is many way in many 276 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,000 ways at the forefront of populating the world with lots 277 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,240 of useless or unnecessary stuff, right? 278 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,240 And so from the very beginning had this notion of building 279 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,800 things that matter, right? Trying to really build products 280 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,840 that affect people in a very positive way can create change 281 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,520 in the world, can create change in a market, can deliver things 282 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,600 and enable people to do things they haven't done before. 283 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,560 But we have this approach, right? 284 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,320 So I, so I have this very sort of mixed viewpoint on research, 285 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,000 right? I often have joked that if great 286 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,480 design was born in research, there would be more, a lot more 287 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,280 great design, right? Because gathering information is 288 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,200 an important thing, but not exactly the thing that's going 289 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,880 to make a great product. It can build, be a foundation or 290 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,320 lead to direction. So we, we have a strategy team 291 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,320 here and we have a user experience team here. 292 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,400 And of course our industrial design and, and visual design 293 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,360 and so forth. But we started looking at that 294 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,600 function as answering this question whenever we, we're, 295 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,720 we're approaching a project. And that question is what's 296 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,360 worth designing in the 1st place. 297 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,640 Because largely many times driven by the pure economics of 298 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,960 product development. If you're going to develop a 299 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:41,160 product into, into the world in, in volume, you're looking at 300 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:46,040 spending at minimum $5,000,000, typically 10/20/50 a $100 301 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,040 million to really build something and deliver it at 302 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,120 scale. And it's an incredible use of 303 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,640 human capital, manpower, incredible use of time, as I 304 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,760 mentioned, dollars, natural resources, all these things that 305 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,760 go into building something and delivering it. 306 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,800 So the basic thought is, if you're going to do all that, you 307 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,680 better know where you're going, right? 308 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,080 So we, we do, we should do a fair amount of work up front to 309 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,360 building a framework around answering this question of 310 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,040 what's worth designing, right? And, and it really helps us. 311 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,000 It really it's, it's again, I don't, I don't view it as all 312 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,880 the answers are there sometimes, but really many times it's about 313 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,200 just framing and providing direction and building a way to 314 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,560 talk about the creative work that we're doing with people. 315 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,040 And so that that's really important part of what we do. 316 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,800 And we do it on almost everything big and small to sort 317 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,360 of figure out if we're going to do this, what's worth doing. 318 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,760 And, and that helps guide us quite a bit and, and it helps us 319 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,320 end up with something that that is in fact valuable. 320 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,600 That's not just another thing that looks better than the last 321 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,800 one, right? And so that's easy. 322 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,120 We can do that, but we really strive to do more. 323 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,800 Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to talk through a couple concrete 324 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,800 examples. And since you're wearing some 325 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,000 Beats by Doctor Dre right now, this is going to be an audio 326 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,040 only podcast, but I can see Robert right now in the video 327 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,040 stream. Can you tell us maybe the back 328 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,119 story behind that and then we can look at a couple other 329 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,040 examples? Well, it's a great story. 330 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,040 It's really fun and, and in many ways has really shaped 331 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,440 ammunition and, and my career, at least the the the latter half 332 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,040 of it in that, yeah, I did a look at it and I've been 333 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,800 literally working with beats for 19 years, which is in kind of 334 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,960 crazy from a relationship point of view, yeah. 335 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,320 Yeah, they've grown up and gone to college at this point, right? 336 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,800 Yes, yeah, You know, and, and I the other thing that's really 337 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,520 crazy is that from the original people that started, which I was 338 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,120 one and put it all together and built the thing, I'm the only 339 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:58,360 one left and it's still there, which is which is kind of weird, 340 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:01,440 but yeah. So how it started was like how 341 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,720 things, a lot of things start just happenstance. 342 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:10,040 I knew somebody who had gotten some Intel that Jimmy Ivine and 343 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,640 Doctor Dre were interested in building audio products. 344 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,400 And he set up a meeting and I went to the meeting and that was 345 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,400 just crazy, right. So here I am, some Silicon 346 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,920 Valley design nerd sitting there with Jimmy Ivine and Doctor Dre 347 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,200 and talking about, you know, building products. 348 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,720 But you know, it was, it was really interesting that very 349 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,760 strangely, I, I connected well with those two and, and I never 350 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,840 really understood it right, why there seemed to be some bond 351 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,160 there. Later I realized it's because 352 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,640 they, they viewed me as talent in the same way they viewed 353 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,000 their musical talent right then. Just so you know, it was someone 354 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,720 who could do something that they thought was exciting and they 355 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,560 were going to get the try and get the best out of me to 356 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,880 produce something. And so that that relationship 357 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,960 began to develop the first product, which was the Beat 358 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,040 Studio. And that first product was an 359 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,960 insane ride because honestly, Jimmy and Dre and the the small 360 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,720 team that they had did not know what they were doing and they 361 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,000 kind of knew what they wanted, but they had no idea how to get 362 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,440 there, no understanding of the development process. 363 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,400 So it took actually a while to get the first product done and 364 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840 was incredibly painful. But at the same time, I was 365 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:32,840 doing design reviews with Will I am and Pharrell and Oliver 366 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,360 Stone, and he was just like crazy. 367 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,680 Whoever happened to be in the building at Universal Music any 368 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,040 day we were talking about the products got invited, right? 369 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,560 So which you might think sounds cool. 370 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,840 It was actually really difficult because if a superstar takes a 371 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,560 viewpoint on something that's completely wrong, sometimes 372 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,760 takes you months done and you know, and so, but, but it was 373 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,720 great. And then and so we did the 374 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,040 studio. It took a good six to nine 375 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,960 months and then it just exploded right just on the market. 376 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,280 And once Jimmy, I remember I asked him early on, what's our 377 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,280 marketing strategy? And he's great. 378 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,520 He says, Robert, our marketing strategy is a lot of people owe 379 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,240 me a lot of favors. And you know, literally every 380 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,440 music video that went out of Universal had the product in it. 381 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,240 Everyone that he knew who was anybody was wearing the product, 382 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,360 right. It was really became this 383 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:36,120 classic brand association with creativity and and greatness. 384 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,400 And it just it once that caught in the thing took off and then 385 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,200 we just began developing product after product and delivering it 386 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,960 and building on building the brand and building the idea. 387 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,280 And it was just incredible. We have an ammunition, one of 388 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,120 our larger forms of our practice is packaging, structural 389 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,160 packaging. And the whole reason we're 390 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,280 really good at it is because we pretty much had to take that 391 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,640 entire piece and develop it, source it in Asia deliberate, 392 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,000 you know, it just became something it was kind of one of 393 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,120 these all hands on deck thing. If there's something that needed 394 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:10,920 to be done, you did it. And that of course is a great 395 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,440 was a great learning experience. So that of course went on. 396 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,720 Then the Apple acquisition occurred and I thought that was 397 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,080 the end, right. I thought that OK, and we're 398 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,400 going to wind down here. ID Studio will take it over. 399 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,760 You know, financially it was a good thing for us. 400 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,000 So, so we went on a project by project basis. 401 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,440 We're just finishing some things and then I got this call to come 402 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,720 down to Cupertino and, and basically that's like we need 403 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:38,880 you back. What do you want? 404 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,320 You know, so, so we, we moved into a different type of 405 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,040 relationship and it continued that since then we're working 406 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,480 with Apple and developing the products. 407 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,760 Yeah, it seems like a real testament to the strength of 408 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,840 that brand since Apple has such a obviously they make their own 409 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,680 headphones and audio equipment and they're very specific design 410 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,240 aesthetic. But to keep that as a brand and 411 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,320 continue it going forward, I think it's a testament to that. 412 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,200 Yeah. And it it it's, you know, been a 413 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,520 fantastic foundation to build products on. 414 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:14,000 But then we we strive to really keep a very sort of beads 415 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,120 viewpoint on, on the things that we do. 416 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,000 And I think that helps bring the the value in that in that 417 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,400 portfolio between apple and Beads. 418 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,560 Is there another product that you're particularly proud of 419 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,480 that you want to share the back story of? 420 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,200 I always hate this question 'cause there's so many. 421 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:32,680 I know it's like choosing your favorite. 422 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,800 Children, I know there's so, so many things that well, well, 423 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,640 that, you know, I think the work for Square is really 424 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,600 interesting. We don't work with Square 425 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,440 anymore, but we spent a very pivotal period working with the 426 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,040 company and working with Jack Dorsey. 427 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,960 They came to us with their first credit card reader, right. 428 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,160 So I don't know if you remember it's, you plug it into the audio 429 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Jack on your phone and, and you could scan credit cards. 430 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,440 But you the, the really incredible thing about that was 431 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,200 that it really democratized credit card transactions. 432 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:09,200 It used to be to be able to take Visa and MasterCard was, you 433 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,320 know, you had to create the this account, which was a lot of 434 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,920 work. You had to buy specific things 435 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,760 to support it. It really, you know, it would 436 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,280 take you a month and it's a fair amount of money and effort to 437 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,800 get up on being able to accept credit cards. 438 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,120 Now you, you've got online filled in simple information, a 439 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,560 few radio buttons and the next day this thing showed up in your 440 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,200 mail and you plugged in your phone and you could be selling 441 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,280 used sneakers on the sidewalk taking Visa cards. 442 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,760 And it's just like changed everything. 443 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,960 And that we thought was amazing. So, you know, the, the first 444 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480 thing we did was they were having a lot of issues with the 445 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,440 with the reader in terms of reliability and manufacturing. 446 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,680 So we helped redesign that. And then Jack Kim goes with this 447 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,040 project, which was really reimagining the castrated Sir, 448 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,600 you know, the and, and where they really felt their sweet 449 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,800 spot was. And he is, continues to be, is 450 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,040 in, in small business and small business retail. 451 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,840 And it was a space where people take a lot of pride in their 452 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,800 their environment, their storefront. 453 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,600 They of course, need things to be as simple, as efficient as 454 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,520 possible. They need to be able to, you 455 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,160 know, process as quickly as possible, right? 456 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,920 All these things just made it a, a really interesting project. 457 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,560 And then, you know, our thing was to, well, this thing has to 458 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:28,840 be an icon, really it, it has to be universally recognizable as 459 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,320 this piece of technology that that is reshaping small 460 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,040 business. And so that all that went into 461 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,800 creating the the square stand, which basically took an iPad. 462 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,480 You put the iPad in it, downloaded the software and you 463 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,160 had this full functioning point of sale system. 464 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,520 And we ended up building this, this visual architecture for it, 465 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,160 which was actually very hard to build. 466 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,680 And it was a testament to the support of Jack and his team 467 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,080 that we have able to do it. And it's, you know, and the one 468 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,280 thing I, the reason I love it is the most important view of that 469 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,120 product is the back, right? And it's it's one of those rare 470 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,080 ones when most people approach it, they're coming up to the 471 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,000 back. Right, this is the customer 472 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,800 view. Yeah, the customer view and 473 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,360 honestly, it's the most beautiful backside you've ever 474 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,120 created it though. And they still, even though 475 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,000 they've gone to other generations, you know, still 476 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,640 when you walk into a shop and see one of those white square 477 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,440 stands, you immediately sort of have very positive feelings 478 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,440 about about the retailer. So that's another favorite. 479 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,920 In terms of like the connecting thread of this, I mean we've 480 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,160 talked about like these needs and something like that and like 481 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,920 connecting it to research for something like that, like the 482 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,160 the square stand, there's kind of two users, right? 483 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,800 There's like the cashier, the person working there, but then 484 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,880 there's also the customer in the retail store. 485 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,320 So how do you think about that in the research phase in terms 486 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,840 of like understanding people? Again, the amount of research 487 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,240 that we do is not huge, but it's always important research. 488 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,560 And, and we're really very big on just getting out to where 489 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,000 people are, right, whether that's in their home, whether 490 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,400 that's in their business, you know, and really understanding 491 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,440 the pain points and the challenges that they have. 492 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,800 And, and really, you know, and I always view it as a way of 493 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,520 building empathy, right? I think, you know, as a 494 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,520 designer, one of the most powerful things you can have is 495 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,520 true empathy, right? Where you can put yourself in 496 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,640 other people's shoes and sort of really allowing yourself to do 497 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,800 that. And and so, you know, seeing 498 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,000 things from a small business person's point of view and a 499 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,200 retailer's point of view and what they need to run that 500 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,280 business and how what the solutions that existed before 501 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,400 just didn't work. And then, yeah, the customer and 502 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,240 that that simplicity and seamlessness of a transaction. 503 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,000 And back to the square stand. One of the interesting things 504 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,880 about that, you know, when we, after working on the Reader and 505 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,080 doing that, we realized one of the most interesting things 506 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,000 about the Square experience was this was the transaction, right? 507 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,000 If you went up to that guy in the street to buy some sneakers, 508 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,040 given the sneaker, he would do something on his phone and then 509 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,760 he'd hand his phone to you, right? 510 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,160 For you to scribble a signature with your finger and then take 511 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,680 it back. And so that was that. 512 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,200 It was, that wasn't, you know, the handing of cash and giving 513 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560 change or handing over the credit card. 514 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,360 It was that became the transaction and so we wanted to 515 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,000 continue that into and we saw that need, you know, in at the 516 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520 retail experience from both the customer and the retailer sort 517 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,200 of how you'd make that work really well. 518 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,520 So we came up with this really amazing technology called the 519 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,960 Lazy Susan, right. So it was basically all we did 520 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,480 was put a disk, a rotating disk on the bottom of the product 521 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,400 that allowed you to flip it around 180° to perform that 522 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840 transaction. And no, it became sort of a core 523 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,440 to the personality of it, right? So those are the things that 524 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,880 seems obvious and it seems trivial, but those are the 525 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,720 things you discover by sitting with people and observing the 526 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,160 process and understanding what's going on and, and what you need 527 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,560 to do to, you know, build a really good experience that 528 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,240 people are not only functionally satisfied, but emotionally 529 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,760 satisfied with. Yeah, it feels like you've 530 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,560 created like a, a new gesture of meaning, right? 531 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,960 Just as like when smartphones first came about or the iPhone 532 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,320 first came about more specifically and we were started 533 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,080 to like touch screen and swipe and do all of those sort of 534 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,600 things like that. Turning that point of sale 535 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,560 device around that iPad around for the signature and for the 536 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,480 choosing the tip has become like you obviously didn't do that 537 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,840 before with traditional cash based cash registers or even 538 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,800 like the the swiping of credit cards, you know back when we did 539 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,480 that instead of tapping. Yeah, Yeah. 540 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Let's see. Another more recent project, 541 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:33,280 which we're very proud of is a product from a relatively new 542 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,880 company called Terra Cafe. And it it is a coffee machine. 543 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,240 We did their second generation, which is called the TKO 2, but 544 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,680 we're working with the founder, Sahan Damani, who is, he's based 545 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,080 in Brooklyn. Two things about Sahan. 546 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,360 One, he's, as you might guess, is a coffee maniac, right? 547 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,400 I've never seen anyone consume as much caffeine in, in that 12 548 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,720 hour day as this. This man, it fuels his energy 549 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120 and intensity. But you know, more important to 550 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,680 us, we, you know, became enamoured with his sense of and 551 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,520 belief in quality, right? And, and that's sort of when we 552 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,280 start taking it down to what we're doing to have this 553 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,960 conversation about craftsmanship, right? 554 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,400 And well, that I wish that was a more general neutral term. 555 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,560 I don't have, but it's, you know, about the idea of being 556 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,840 really focused on the quality and craft of what you're making 557 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,360 and what you're building and what you're delivering to 558 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,240 people. And it's something that people 559 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,160 can feel, right? It's something when people ask 560 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,320 me are are we going to be put out of jobs by artificial 561 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,480 generative AII say no because that is always something that 562 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,560 people look for is the touch of other humans and their 563 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240 commitment to building something great right. 564 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,720 And so the TKO two is a fantastic machine makes amazing 565 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,960 coffee rivalry machines. It's about a $400.00 I think 566 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,160 machine. I'll probably got that wrong and 567 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,440 he'll get mad at me, but but it's makes quality coffee. 568 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,520 It machines that you know, hence machines that cost three times 569 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,000 as much, but it's fully automated. 570 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,240 And he gave us an incredible amount of leeway on the design 571 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,640 on the interface to just build this really incredibly built 572 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,400 quality, simple, highly detailed machine. 573 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,160 It's got almost this very brutalist, minimalist sort of 574 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,600 feel about it, but it when you walk up to it, it feels 575 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,960 technologically advanced and be like a very quality thing on 576 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,160 this machine from a solid block material. 577 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,440 And that's, you know, something I really, I really love about it 578 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,600 is that when you get the opportunity as a designer to 579 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,800 work with someone that just really cares about what they're 580 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,640 making, but trust you at the same time, you almost always end 581 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,040 up with something great. If you get a chance to check 582 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,720 that out, it's it's really an amazing machine. 583 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,560 Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing 3 584 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,000 examples of your work. What I'm seeing as a connecting 585 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,560 thread is you've worked with clients, you've worked with 586 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,560 partners. It seems you know more than a 587 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600 typical like client relationship because you do have that stake 588 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,720 in things. They believe in you and and in 589 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,760 the power of design. But do you have any advice for 590 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,280 designers who are working in context where maybe the value of 591 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,960 design isn't quite as appreciated by the folks that 592 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,480 they're working with? Yes, I do and that and that is 593 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,880 always a challenge and honestly, we, we still experience that 594 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,640 today, right? We've been working among name 595 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,440 names with a, a new company and you know, they're both very 596 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,440 opinionated and and focused on what they're doing, but don't 597 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,000 really understand design. So it's a constant battle, 598 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,560 right, to get things, you know, moving and down right. 599 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,320 So it, it always exists, right? But you know, I think one thing 600 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,960 I always go back to about designers, and I think this 601 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,280 crosses all design professions, which needs to change, which is 602 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,960 a little bit of, there's a little bit of an inferiority 603 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,960 thing that happens when people, it's sort of, I went to art 604 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,160 school. What do I know? 605 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,400 I'm just just a creative person, right? 606 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,600 And, and I remember learning this lesson when I was at Apple. 607 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,960 It's like, you know, I mentioned I'd go to these like 8 hour 608 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,800 meetings at C level type stuff and I'd listen to these 609 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,000 executives talk. And first of all, I thought, to 610 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,840 be brutally honest, half of them were idiots. 611 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040 And second of all, I had thoughts and beliefs on what we 612 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,040 should be doing. But you know, I, I felt like, 613 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,080 no, I'm not, it's not my place to say. 614 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,040 And then I realized later I was right, right. 615 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,400 Actually, what I thought was the thing to do was the thing to do. 616 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,920 And it just taught me a lesson about speaking up and being 617 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,080 confident, right? And being confident in who you 618 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,200 are and what you know and the experience that you have and the 619 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,000 viewpoint that you have, it is valuable. 620 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,040 It brings incredible value to almost any conversation, 621 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,640 especially when you know you're talking about things that you're 622 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,920 delivering into people's lives, whether that's business or, or 623 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,480 as a, as a consumer product. I think that's one another thing 624 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,600 which I found to be incredibly important is I've been asked a 625 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,320 number of times in, in a slightly different context, what 626 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,720 the secret is to business development for a design firm, 627 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,000 right? And, and I, I over years of 628 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,920 trying a lot of things and not working, I finally realized it 629 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,520 came down to two things. Visibility in relationships. 630 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,400 You needed to make yourself and your work visible and constantly 631 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,520 putting out there. And the relationships that you 632 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,840 form that are good and and positive and solid, you leverage 633 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,360 those, you build on those, you expand those, right? 634 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,480 In any situation, even whether you're working in a corporation, 635 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,000 whether you're working in your own studio, I think those two 636 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,360 things are very important, right? 637 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,000 Maintaining visibility and building those relationships, 638 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,240 right? And you know, again, the idea of 639 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,120 expanding on it, right? You've worked with someone, it 640 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,480 was a really positive outcome. You work with that person to 641 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,520 introduce you into other areas and expand upon that and so 642 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,560 forth. And just sort of, you know, use 643 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,480 those relationships and the word of mouth and that visibility 644 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,080 continue to grow. And I, I think that's, that's a 645 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,760 very important thing. The last one I, I preach often 646 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,840 to our younger designers is to learn to communicate, right? 647 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,239 Learn one to speak the language of business and really 648 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,800 understand it, not just use buzzwords or really understand 649 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,280 concepts or just. Throw in like a leverage to 650 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,480 sound so. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 651 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,000 And then just, it took me a long time to get comfortable with, I 652 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,000 mean, probably a decade of practice, which is really 653 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,600 getting up in, in front of people and telling the story and 654 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,000 building that story in a way that builds context for what 655 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,880 you're doing and builds emotional energy around it. 656 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,320 And so I, you know, I often say, if people say, what would you 657 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,800 have done differently when we went to school? 658 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,199 And I say, well, I would have taken an acting class in a 659 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,239 public speaking class, in a comedy class, and you know, all 660 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,880 these things where I had to get up in front of people and put 661 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,920 myself out there. So I became comfortable with it. 662 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,160 And like I said, it took me a long time to do that. 663 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,840 But now it's a big part of what I do, whether it's going out and 664 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,760 speaking, doing something like this, standing in front of a 665 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,880 bunch of executives, whatever, it's, it's just feeling 666 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,120 comfortable and confident with who you are and being able to 667 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,880 communicate ideas and values that way. 668 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,560 And then I think that's really important for people. 669 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,320 Yeah, those are great points and especially the last one, I'll 670 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,400 just reveal it now. This is totally not a plant at 671 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,480 all. But Robert, our next season of 672 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,360 programming, the theme is going to be design and performance. 673 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,280 So we're looking at whether it's performance on a stage, giving a 674 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,000 design talk as you were saying, but other forms of performance, 675 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,480 right, like negotiating the terms of a contract is a kind of 676 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,320 performance as well in terms of your preparing what your talking 677 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,640 points are, what you might be able to move on what is non 678 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,520 negotiable for you. So yeah, I think that's a great 679 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,360 point for a lot of designers to think about in terms of how they 680 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,440 perform, being designers, how they perform, being leaders in 681 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,880 addition to their core craft of whatever they're doing, whether 682 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,240 it's products or pixels or or whatever that might be. 683 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,360 Yeah, no, it is and, and it's become a thing for me now it's 684 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,320 it's just interesting, become a bit of a passion in that the I 685 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,120 do a lot of public speaking, which I used to be terrified of. 686 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,280 I still am. I still, you know, the half an 687 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,640 hour before I have to go on stage, I still say, why the fuck 688 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,720 am I doing this? Why did I, why did I fly across 689 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,040 the world to stand in front of 2000 people and potentially 690 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,080 embarrass myself? I don't know. 691 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,920 But once I'm up there, I've kind of, I had this sort of epiphany, 692 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,400 a couple things. One, I used to worry a lot about 693 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,280 my content until I realized it's very unlikely that any person 694 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,320 comes to see me twice, right? So having some content you put 695 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,520 together and, and delivering it over and over and getting better 696 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,720 and better at it, right? In terms of your pauses, in 697 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,080 terms of your punch lines, in terms of your flow. 698 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,480 And, you know, all these things is actually a big part of the 699 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,560 delivery. And then I, so, and then I've 700 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,560 actually got to this point now where I strangely, I enjoy being 701 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,960 in front of an audience and seeing the faces, but I kind of 702 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:02,880 become disconnected from that. And I'm just completely like an 703 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,880 actor following through this narrative and focusing on 704 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,280 telling the story and doing in a way that's compelling and 705 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,080 emotional. Totally. 706 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,880 That in a way has become, you know, an interesting thing for 707 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,120 me is, like I said, realizing that there's this whole new 708 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,720 thing to be learned about delivery. 709 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,720 Totally. And I think it's again, at 710 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:21,400 different levels. It takes a lot of time, it takes 711 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,400 a lot of experiencing and gaining of confidence, but it's 712 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,640 it's an important part of inspiring people totally to 713 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,680 follow you and get excited about the things that you're doing. 714 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,400 You mentioned earlier that you wish you had taken an acting 715 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,360 class. Did you end up taking one or 716 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,440 work with a coach which on any of this stuff or this is just 717 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,720 through Hard Knocks of giving a lot of talks and figuring it out 718 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,160 along the way? It's Hard Knocks. 719 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,440 It's Hard Knocks. I mean, I do, I have this group 720 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,600 that, that I think they organized this working with you 721 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,160 here and that help you. And they've done a couple like 722 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,640 sort of audits, which is always humbling, which unfortunately, 723 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,920 you know, it's probably 70% positive, but you know, it's the 724 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,120 25 or 30% that needs to be improved. 725 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,040 That always, you know, sticks you with you totally. 726 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,800 You'd like it to be 99% good. But no, no, I haven't. 727 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,120 It was really just at first it was a necessity realizing, OK, 728 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,680 if I'm going to have a business and I'm going to leave things, I 729 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,360 need to get good at this. And then as I said, it's sort of 730 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,720 morphed into, oh, it's just something I want to be good at. 731 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,120 I'm going to figure out how to be good at it. 732 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,560 And that's scary, at times exhilarating and and at times 733 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,160 fun. And it's important. 734 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,000 Wonderful. Like a lot of things, it just 735 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,320 takes practice. Yeah. 736 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,720 So to wrap up our time together, I think we're already on this 737 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:41,320 theme of learning, but there's a question that we like to ask all 738 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,320 of our guests this season here at the AIG Design Podcast, which 739 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,280 is about learning in general. So what is something? 740 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,280 And it can be a fact, a scale and insight, whatever you want 741 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,960 it to be that you've learned recently. 742 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,120 What's something you've learned recently? 743 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,200 It could be related to your work at Ammunition or just in your 744 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,960 broader creative life, whatever you want to answer with that. 745 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,280 Well, I talked about the speaking thing. 746 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,800 That's been a big thing that I've been doing and a lot of 747 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:11,360 learning in one that's interesting and much closer to 748 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,840 work, which, you know, I, I mentioned this sort of notion of 749 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,400 what effect does generative AI have on what we're doing right? 750 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,760 And so really I've been diving in to figure out where we're 751 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,400 going to go with this as much as possible. 752 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,720 And it's become fascinating to me. 753 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,480 There's a saying which I love, which is 2 opposing things can 754 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,120 be true at the same time. It's, it's said more eloquently, 755 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,840 but it's, it's a really interesting concept. 756 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,360 And for me, it's this idea of change is constant, yet things 757 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,880 stay the same, right? Because it's, you know, it can 758 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,320 really sum up our experience in this world, right? 759 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,560 While we're constantly surrounded by change, things are 760 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,480 always moving, always in flux, have something new all the time. 761 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,640 Yet at the quorum, anything stay the same. 762 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,920 And so, you know, as you know, we were looking at where we are 763 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,760 as an organization and where I am as a as a design professional 764 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,440 and what's going on. I took back the the one of the 765 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,600 first products I ever did. That was successful was this 766 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:18,080 product called Mindset. I think I did it in 1992 and it 767 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,800 ended up winning a lot of awards going in the Museum of Modern 768 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,000 Art was pretty successful in the computer marketplace. 769 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,120 But my tools, the only piece of automation I had was an HP 770 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,680 calculator, right? That was it. 771 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,800 Everything else, drafting machine pens and pencils. 772 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,880 What I've seen is these wave after wave of technology that 773 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,600 ends up freaking people out, but in the end does one thing. 774 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,240 It frees us up to think more, right? 775 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,400 And that's kind of where I've started to view as generative 776 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,760 AI. And what what's happening to me 777 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,000 and, and our profession is that we're seeing increased 778 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,280 automation research and more speed and accuracy and creative 779 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,240 and technical efforts. We're using it for concept 780 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:05,720 creation as an augmentation. We're seeing automation and 781 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,720 development, refinement, all these things, but it, it, it's 782 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,000 sort of moving what we do towards this role of producer, 783 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,520 director and editor, right? Which is kind of what I do all 784 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,480 the time anyway. But now it's becoming more and 785 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,320 more broad. But the thing that that I find 786 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,320 that's important about this is I believe the connection that 787 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,840 design creates with people cannot be outsourced, right? 788 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,200 It cannot be handed over and automated because as I was 789 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,520 saying about Terra Cafe, I think when people bring something into 790 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,120 their lives, they feel the hand of the other people that were 791 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,360 involved, right? You know, when you know 792 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,080 something about how something was made and the fact that 793 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,440 someone went to this extraordinary effort to make it 794 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,840 and improve your life, that's the thing you connect with many 795 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,160 times. And so this area I'm still 796 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,080 playing with, still understanding, it's still 797 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,080 evolving, but it's kind of become a little bit of focus for 798 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,120 me of, of figuring out where this is all going to go and, and 799 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,360 what are we going to do with it. You have people that are scared 800 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,240 that essentially generative AI is going to take over what we do 801 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,720 and will no longer be necessary. I don't believe that to be true. 802 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,640 I think it's going to change a lot of what we do. 803 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,960 And it's, it's one of those things you're, you're better off 804 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,520 diving into it than just resisting it. 805 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,920 But at the same time, I, I don't, I don't feel worried or 806 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,680 scared about it. It's something, it's just 807 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,400 something new to be learned and understood. 808 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,600 So that's not really a hobby, but it's, it's professionally 809 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,480 become something that I'm intrigued and excited about. 810 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,040 And I just want to continue to learn what we're going to do 811 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,600 with it. Thank you for your reflections 812 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,400 on generative AI and how you're thinking about it, how you're 813 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920 using it in your work. So as we wrap up, Robert, can 814 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,520 you tell our listeners where they can follow you and your 815 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,960 work online? There's LinkedIn, myself on 816 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,960 LinkedIn are ammunition, but I think, you know, you see a lot 817 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,640 of stuff on on Instagram. So my Instagram is at Robert D 818 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,960 Bruner and then at Ammunition Group for our company and that's 819 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,240 probably the best place to see what what's going on in our 820 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:12,280 studio. Awesome. 821 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,320 Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. 822 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,920 And AIG is virtual studio on the AIG Design Podcast. 823 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,720 Robert Brunner, thanks again. This is a great conversation. 824 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:25,600 And for our listeners, we will see you next season on the AIG 825 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,440 Design Podcast and you've heard of here. 826 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,520 We will be exploring design and performance as our theme. 827 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,920 I'm Li Shawn Huang. Talk to you next time. 828 00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:34,880 Thank you. Bye. 829 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,040 Bye.