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I often describe my teaching 
agenda as on the One Hand, 

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Helping managers understand the 
criticality of design and 

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Innovation perspectives. 
And how important it is to truly

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integrate that into how they do 
business and help designers 

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understand organizations in a 
better way, that was the voice 

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of Rodrigo. 
Canales associate professor of 

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organizational behavior at the 
Yale School of Management. 

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Rodrigo is also the faculty 
Director of Business, 

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perspectives for Creative 
leaders and Executive Education.

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I am from aiga in partnership 
with the Yale School of 

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Management. 
As usual, I'm Li Shan Wang 

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director of design, content and 
learning here at aiga. 

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And on this episode of the AIG 
design podcast, we'll hear more 

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from Rodrigo on some of the 
challenges designers face as we 

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advance as leaders in our 
careers and some of the learning

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opportunities that can help us 
navigate. 

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Those challenges will also hear 
from pentagram partner, Michael 

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be root, a former participant of
business perspectives for 

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Creative leaders, And what makes
the program? 

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A unique learning experience. 
Now back to Rodrigo you know the

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way designers operate in what 
makes designers unique and 

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effective is their ability to 
empathize with the people who 

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they're solving problems for and
to bring in a problem-solving 

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ethos and methodology that 
allows for discoveries that are 

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they woven into innovative 
solutions, right? 

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So that's the magic of design 
but with in the process of 

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design designers, just haven't 
usually don't have to and they 

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I've been trained to understand 
that whatever it is that you're 

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producing needs to live within 
an existing organization and a 

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business model that has to make 
it sustainable and that has 

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right? 
And so there's another set of 

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factors that are going to 
determine whether your design 

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ever sees the light of day that 
may have nothing to do with how 

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effective your Innovation is, or
your work is for solving the 

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problem that you're analyzing, 
but we'll have a lot to do with 

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how well that's solution that 
you're proposing. 

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Rates with a set of existing 
structures and systems and 

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decision processes. 
If you want to be a truly 

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effective designer, you need to 
make sure that whatever it is 

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that you're designing is also 
designed to reside within a 

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broader and more complex 
organization and its not just 

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solving for the problem that 
you're analyzing, which is what 

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designers are. 
Excellent are, that's one aspect

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of the teaching, right? 
And so it's helping designers 

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understand how their work 
integrates into a broader 

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organization and set of This 
models, I would say that a 

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second aspect of this course in 
particular, which I particularly

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enjoy is you start as a 
designer. 

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And as you say, you invest in 
your craft and in your Insight 

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and in your intuition, and all 
these things at some point 

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precisely because you become so 
good. 

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All of a sudden you are in a 
position where you're no longer 

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the one necessarily doing the 
work, but you actually have to 

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supervise other people and craft
teams and you become a manager 

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of an organization. 
Of designers. 

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And so I think it's a natural 
path of any career, but I think 

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it's especially Salient in the 
designer career that what got 

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you here is not work. 
Done. 

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Is what's going to get you 
there? 

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Meaning all the things that 
allow you to be an amazing 

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designer are not the things that
are going to make you an 

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effective manager of designers. 
And so there's a set of blind 

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spots that designers have 
because of their training and 

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their craft that we help them. 
We want to help them kind of 

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illuminate through a basic 
training on. 

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On management and organizations 
and business processes and 

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business perspectives. 
And so I would say those are the

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two big motivations behind the, 
the work that we do partner with

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the IGA, on this program. 
Next up, we have pentagram 

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partner. 
Michael be roots and Alum of 

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business, perspectives for 
Creative leaders and what makes 

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the program and Yale University.
So unique, I haven't gone 

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through the program myself. 
I can really testify to how 

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enlightening it is. 
To get a highly condensed but 

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still really, really effective 
window into the world of 

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business and business strategy 
as his practice at the highest 

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levels. 
If you're a designer, you have 

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talent, you have insights that 
have gotten you into a room, but

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the room you're in, you're 
surrounded by people who are 

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often not designers. 
And in fact who have their own 

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goals that they're trying to 
advance their business goals or 

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other kinds of goals and your 
ability to succeed. 

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Your ability to have your work 
realized in that context has a 

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lot to do with how you connect. 
With those people designers are 

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always like talking about how we
need to educate the client. 

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Maybe that's true occasionally, 
but I find that the best 

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relationships that I have with 
projects and engagements. 

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With clients are when I'm on the
receiving end of the education, 

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the degree that you're curious 
that you can kind of make those 

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connections in the room. 
When you're talking about 

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design, not on your own. 
Personal terms would be able to 

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translate those terms into 
things that actually resonates 

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With people who are there 
because they represent the 

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interests of the context into 
which you're plugging, Your 

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Design work in to that's 
something that most of us, pick 

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it up on the job along the way, 
if we're lucky, we have a mentor

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to or have an encounter with 
someone that we can learn things

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from. 
But I think if you want to 

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consolidate that learning and to
do it in a really impactful way,

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this program delivers, it way 
out of scale to the time. 

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You're investing the investment 
of time, the investment of money

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that you're putting into it. 
It's repaid over and over again,

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in ways that I would even be, I 
find difficult to calculate, 

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except to reassure people, that 
it's a multiple of what you put 

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into it. 
In the beginning, there are a 

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lot of different is the schools 
around the country, but I 

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consider the Yale School of 
Management really special. 

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And one of the reasons is 
special, is that when it was 

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founded, it was deliberately 
called the school management 

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versus a School of Business. 
That is found in, which is in 

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the 70s, as a fairly young 
institution, one of the younger 

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graduate schools, add Yale 
University, one was founded. 

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It was conceived as a place that
could educate. 

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People not simply to go out 
there and make a lot of money. 

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But but to really be highly, 
conscious of the role that they 

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would play as Citizens as 
members of society. 

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And in fact, the mission 
statement of Yale School of 

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Management is educating leaders 
for business and Society, most 

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designers that I talk to. 
I find that a really resonant 

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idea and that has been there 
from the beginning and we're at 

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a moment in time now where most 
of the clients that you have 

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probably have some sort of 
corporate responsibility Mission

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or some sort of commitment to 
ESG or some sort of other 

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Transcendent principles that 
represents a stakeholder value 

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versus shareholder value. 
Yale, was there at, the very 

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beginning, Yale has been 
extolling that as the reason 

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that that business, you know, 
the raison d'etre for business 

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and business people to be 
active. 

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The world has asked you to make 
the world a better place. 

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Not simply to make money when 
you connect with Yale, it's in a

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context where it's not simply 
going into this foreign 

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territory learning or learning a
wholly. 

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Foreign language that just is 
all about dollars and cents or 

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Euros or a ends or RuPaul's or 
whatever your trading. 

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And it really has to do with how
we create long-term meaningful 

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value for each other as human 
beings, Yale University has a 

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context, the design commitment. 
And the humanist commitment is 

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really there. 
And the AL School. 

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Bart is basically where a lot of
the Teaching and thinking around

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graphic design as a profession, 
got Consolidated in mid 20th, 

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century first course, I believe 
that use graphic design as its 

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descriptor, and the AL School 
management is like very much 

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design and caring about design. 
Understand the value design 

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isn't some sort of add-on or 
some recent discovery. 

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I would argue that it's been 
really inherent in the mission 

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of the school and the way that 
people teach and learn there for

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decades, the clips you heard of 
Rodrigo cannolis. 

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And Michael be rude were 
recorded at our Only 22 open 

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house for the business 
perspectives for Creative 

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leaders program. 
If this conversation has piqued 

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your interest and you'd like to 
learn more. 

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Join us for our upcoming open 
house on Thursday, February 16th

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at 3, p.m. 
Eastern RSVP, Link. 

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In the show notes, we'll also 
post a link to the recording 

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after the event. 
In case you get this or listen 

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to this, after the live open 
house and you can find a link to

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learn more about business 
perspectives or creative leaders

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in the show notes as well. 
I'm leash on Wong. 

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Thank you for listening. 
Listening, until next time.