I think because we're in an industry where we are using
machines, that the thing that I want to dispel is that that does
not equal like faster producing time in a sense where there is a
human behind these machines. So it we need time and space to
explore and really research and take our time to produce
something. That is awful, you're listening
to design future. Now a podcast from aiga, Say the
professional association for design.
I'm Li Shan Wang The Voice, you heard at the top of the episode
belongs, to Esther Moon, who co-founded little fury design in
2006 with her partner. Tina Garden.
Esther is a graduate of the School of Visual Arts in New
York, where she earned a degree in graphic design before.
Starting little Theory as to work that pentagram and at Duffy
and partners. Pastor, thank you so much for
joining us on the show today. Of course, it's aren't we?
Here have to hear from your own words, a little bit more about
little fiery and then we can dive deep into your personal
story as well, Tina and I met more than 15 years ago and she
was actually introducing me to a job opportunity.
At Martha Stewart magazine when I was at Duffy and I asked her a
question. What is it that you really want
to do? And we found this common passion
about tangible. Products.
So she came over that night to my apartment and we just
discussed on what is the thing that we want to make?
And this link will notebook idea is what actually made us quit or
full-time jobs to start launch this product line but then that
kind of led to Let's design together and make money
together. And that's how little fiery
design was worth. So little fury design is both
our Design Studio, where you work with clients and do that
sort of work as well as. You have these different
projects where you launch products, like the linkable
notebooks. You'll have this side project
little cake toppers and how do you think about that?
How do you juggle these two sides of what you do in terms of
the client work? And then these projects that are
essentially entrepreneurial Ventures that spin off of that?
Yeah we do enjoy branding and packaging as clients but I think
our passions always been collaborating with different
types of artists whether they're, you know, Architects or
construction or operation. Ian's or dancers.
So we always kind of keep that in mind to get our juices going
in the sense that creative inspiration going so that we're
not always Tethered to design clients but also producing and
making tangible things. Got it.
And I feel like we're kind of in this age of digital now.
And how have you been thinking about that or kind of resisting
the moving to digital especially now, just this last year and
what's going on? Like how do you stay grounded in
that focus in your passion and in the physical?
You know, we've been running a little fiery design for 15 years
and there was a period where she, we grow our studio with a
digital arm because that's where all the studios are.
Moving into and she, we grow the business with more designers and
make it more robust, and we really thought about it.
And we were like, you know what, I don't think that's our
strength and that is not an interest, so let's not force it.
So we've been pretty good about sticking to what we are better
at and the area that we actually enjoy the most.
And I think that's one of the reasons why it's very telling
that we stuck with branding and packaging tangible packaging
because we both love tangible products.
Your name is little fiery, is it?
Because you've chosen to stay a small team or what's the story
behind that name? That was actually Tina's
freelance. Me little Theory and when we
going together, we kind of looked at each other.
We're just like, hey, your little and we're both fiery.
So we could be furious. So let's just keep it little
fiery. We thought it was very keeping
to who we were. I love that name storen how like
her name was able to include you in this way and yeah, and be a
part of your Collective identity.
So how do you differentiate yourselves?
Like how do you stand out in terms of your point of view?
From other Studios that are working in this branding and
packaging space? That's an interesting question.
Because there are so many studios out there and we
actually did go through this identity crisis where I like,
how are we different, and how do we set ourselves apart?
And I think it was one of those years where we really needed to
Define and identify who you are as a design studio.
We actually hired us Allergist, and the strategy people that we
share space with in the actually kind of helped us Define.
We are. And so, our tagline is, every
big idea needs a little fiery, and we actually kind of really
gain our strength in the fact that we're both creative
directors. But we're in the middie greedy
of all design projects from sketches all the way to
production files. So because we're Nimble and we
have so much experience together.
We tend to work very fast and Yeah, we just get a lot of
things done and lift out of weight.
And I think the strength and the Golden Nugget with working with
little fear is that you get to work directly with us.
So we're very strict about taking maybe maybe maximum three
clients. So we have full attention and
give 110% to each client that we have.
That's wonderful. I wanted to direct our viewers
or listeners to the little fury website because they have this
amazing like infographic flowchart, kind of thing.
About both Esther and her partner Tina's career and story
and how they've come together. It's super cute.
But also, it's like a great way of reimagining like a resume
instead of like bullet points and things like that.
What was the idea behind that? How did you decide like?
Oh, Let's do an infographic to tell her story, you know, we
actually never had or made a, like, a former resume, you know
life. So I think when we first decide
to conjoin our portfolio pieces to Launch little fiery.
I mean Tina and I look at it to the rumors, like, I don't want
to do another like resume that's just like, you know, telling a
story of where we went and where we worked, and yes, those things
are important but let's do it in a visually interesting way.
And the first resume chart that you're seeing or not, not right
now. But like the first one was a lot
shorter. So we decided to just grow the
chart and we've gotten a lot of feedback how that's like, you
know, a lot of people's favorite part about the whole website.
Yeah. That's wonderful.
So let's dive into your past a little bit more of these key
points in your career. As you've talked about how you
met with Tina, did you give a piece of advice to your younger
self? And then we'll dive into a
little bit more of your experiences and stories from
their advice that I would give my younger self would be be more
curious. I think that Curiosity grows
open-mindedness I think ever since I was young I was very
like task-oriented goal-oriented so we're very focused on like
what is my next goal? What is like the next from that?
I want to be part of what is the next project that I'm going to
work on? So it was very task-oriented and
I think that has shut down a lot of media opportunities or people
that I could have been engaged with or opportunities that I
could have walked through. Yeah, so be more Curious would
have been. Is that the first thing that
came to mind be more Curious. That's great.
What are some of the things that you're curious about now that
are maybe outside of your day-to-day work as a designer?
I think I've been always curious to what brings people Joy.
So whenever I get to know people, I love asking that like
what brings you Joy? Instead of like, oh, what do you
do? Or you know, what you do?
Does that bring you Joy? Because I think I told you like
a real part of who they are. In a sense rather than like, oh
what do you do? Where do you went like, instead
of running through the resume in a sense just we are as people.
Yeah, I'm so annoyed by that. What do you do question in like
these casual social networking, kind of environment.
It's one of the things that I don't look forward to with
things like reopening. Let's reopen Ask better
questions, like what are you curious about?
Or what brings you Joy? Yeah.
So we're going back to your journey, your career Journey.
You've been an entrepreneur for a while now with little fiery,
but prior to that, you were working in a larger Studios
larger agencies, like pentagram. And then it Duffy was there a
point where you just decided like you wanted to focus on the
little fiery, the kind of small team versus maybe some of these
larger Studios and agencies in terms of how how they work.
You know, I've never actually imagine or wanted to start my
own design studio. So what the Catalyst was
producing our own product line and then that sort of led to
hey, we should make money together.
That's a little Theory came about.
But Tina and I we never really had like one day.
We want to have our own Design Studio.
One day. I would love to untie dream
about having my own Design Studio.
That was never really in the picture.
Yeah, so the design studio It sounds like it was something to
support your collaboration and allow you to put these products
in the world. Is that kind of how it happened?
Yeah, so let's talk about your first product.
It's going to start here, linkable notebooks, could you
tell us more about that and how that came about?
So Tina and I we got together and she had this passion for
like a book of maps where you would jot down where you've been
and like, right down, you know, these are my favorite
restaurants and it was all like physical notebooks and I was
obsessed with Planners and I still write my schedules.
I never use Google Calendar. I write in my planner like
actually the start here planner that I rewrite with numbers and
every time I would do a project, I sketch a lot.
So I started stitching the really thin mooji notebooks that
I wanted to refer back to the sketches that I've done before.
Because mooji Nobles are really thin shell, really Stitch the
binding. And so it became this.
Yeah, like Stitch notebooks, like series of 34 know.
Looks, and so we were like, oh, I wonder if we could like link
to see other a connectors together.
And so we went through many iterations of like complicated
mock-ups and then we came up with the idea where we have this
front pocket, where the last pocket back pocket of the
notebook, slides into the front pocket and it is seamless.
It just slides in and out and it looks very simple.
So we were like this is it. So after we finish it with hand
high and mocking stuff we actually Ali sent the file out
for like a professional mock-up and we produce 20,000 notebooks
15 years ago. Wow.
Yeah, so first of all, the design it sounds like it's like
the marsupial of notebooks with these Pockets.
Going into things are like the Voltron of notebook.
So you can combine together. Yeah.
I'd so you produce 20,000 of these was this something that
you like did a Kickstarter for pre-sale?
Or was just like, this is interesting.
We think this is interesting to sell and like let's just make
some men, see what happens. Like how did you get to that?
3000 number just decided to put that into production.
Our first round was with you pull paper which was really
expensive. We actually discovered that
material by working on Rembrandt toothpaste, and to be honest, I
think we were young and naive. We were just like in love with
this genius idea. So we put in so much of our
money that we made with our first project and 10,000 was a
mark where we started hitting a lower cost per book.
We didn't do any Kickstarter. We didn't promote on any level.
We were featured in a lot of magazines.
We had a few stores, you know, for poaching as a mute solo
other stores. But looking back, I don't think
we did our part. In terms of really pushing for
sale. I think we were just such a
makers that we knew how to make, but we did not know how to sell.
Yeah, I really appreciate your honesty about the origin story.
I feel like with a lot of entrepreneurs, there's this kind
of myth making about, you know, it started in a garage or all of
these things but then there's also this like selection bias or
survivorship bias of like a will because you made it or because
you're successful. You can tell that story now so I
appreciate the real talk about like you know, we just we didn't
know so we just invested our own money into it and put it out
there. Yeah.
And so are these still available or was it just Kind of a limited
run for yourself. And for whoever wanted to do
about 2,000 notebooks left and I'm still trying to sell them.
Yeah. Can you tell people where they
can get them if they want them? Email?
Me directly. Esther a little angry.
Yeah, awesome. Yeah.
And you also have another different side project that
we've been working on called little cake toppers custom
wooden wedding cake. Toppers, did he tell us the
story behind that it was about Eight, nine years ago, we were
at a flea market, Brooklyn, Flea Market trying to sell her
notebooks and it was rainy day. So nobody was coming to the flea
market buying stuff, but there was another vendor selling those
wooden Stoppers and so I was so bored.
So I bought a set and I thought of painting a wedding cake
topper for a friend. And then I got an idea of and I
start posting it on Instagram, and I did another set for like a
Korean wedding dress. Or Chinese wedding dress, like a
cultural wedding dresses, which is yeah, didn't beautiful.
So I start having so much fun, customizing them and then I
start getting increased from strangers.
So that was like the idea where like, oh, I should turn to talk
business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how it
started. It's interesting to kind of
compare and contrast. The notebook business worry, you
kind of went in on a passion and put in the order for thousands,
tens of thousands of units. And then this one is like, okay,
this is Just something you're interested in, you shared it on
Instagram, I guess Instagram exists.
Now I'm like when you first launch your notebooks and then
it kind of builds organically that you were able to determine
demand because people were reaching out.
Yeah, yeah. And I can't, I personally can't
stand like registry wedding guests impersonal.
It's either that or you given cash.
So, yeah, wedding cake toppers or the topper set actually
became a really great gifts. And that's how I actually
started and then when I start getting, you know, increased
with strangers, that's when it started decided to charge it.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's such a great point. I'm Taiwanese so I'm like, yeah,
just give cash. You know the wedding.
It is like it's so interesting. The history of like these
wedding Registries even though today like most couples are
already living together before they get married.
So like they really need a new toaster.
They probably had a toaster for a while now, you know, it's like
we're still bees like, old-fashioned customs and S.
It really fitting? Today's purposes.
What is a myth or misconception about your craft your industry
that you'd like to dispel for our audience today?
Mmm, my brain went to so many directions without question, but
I think the thing that stood out the most was I think because
we're in an industry where we are using machines, that the
thing that I want to dispel is that that does not equal like
faster producing time. In a sense where There is a
human behind these machines. So it we need time and space to
explore and really research and take our time to produce
something. That is thoughtful.
Yeah. I've been thinking about how,
like, oh, I wonder why even till now and so many designers like
their number one complaint is like everything was due
yesterday and it's like is it? Because we're on the machines
that people think like could just produce you know?
And there's like a like a running joke between Tina and I
going like do or not Kinkos, you know.
So yeah, I think that's something that came to my mind,
as I got number one thing. Yeah, I like this idea of like,
we're not Kinko's and I think more and more as technology
permeates Our Lives. We start using the terms that we
use for technology for ourselves, and when people say,
like, oh, I don't have bandwidth for that right now.
We're like, you know, my memory is full.
It's like, are you like, you know, you're not a computer or
right? You can't do like a ram update
on your brain, but it's interesting how these
technological out of forest, come change the way we think
about ourselves as humans and as professionals Yes.
And so what are you reading right now?
Like watching or listening to you right now that you want to
recommend to our audience? I am currently reading this book
called Art and Faith by Marco fujimura.
I would say I'm like, 1/3 in it and then I just started another
book, called Art of gathering. I would love that book, okay?
Yeah. I just started.
That's great. You know, Priya Parker who's the
author of The Art of gathering. She did like a limited series
podcast. I think with the New York Times
during the pandemic kind of updating it, right?
Because it's about Gathering. She's a professional facilitator
and conflict. Mediator, and like talking about
all sorts of issues of Lego. How do you gather during Like
social distancing or she just did an interview on burn a
Browns podcast where she talks about, like, coming back from
covid for the folks tuning in on the live Esther and I were just
talking in the Green Room about meeting friends who you haven't
seen in, like, over a year and like, what are these protocols
around? Like, do you hug do handshake?
Like how do we negotiate all of this?
Social awkwardness again, right? Like can get back comfortable
with these things. I just wanted to second that.
Recommendation, wholeheartedly myself, awesome.
So I also wanted to take some audience questions.
I see people posting in the chat here in LinkedIn and some of our
other channels. Lindsay wanted to know, is there
a place where she can see pictures of the notebooks
online? Probably little Theory, design,
Instagram account. Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of
examples of cool branded ones, too.
So, do you have any plans for what's next?
In terms of launching new products, or Ventures, or
anything like that? You know, drink covid.
I've been incubating like two projects, even though it was
really hard time to motivate myself to do anything.
So there's one idea that I'm working on with all kinds of
artists where they are actually hosting their own version of
workshops, whether you're a chef or Or musical artist or tap the
answer, or calligrapher that they're going to be hosting
their own workshops, and it's going to be called gather that
I'm looking to launch in the summer July.
And I'm hoping that we could start meeting in person for
that. And then the other one is I'm
actually working on the illustrating children's book.
Wonderful. Yeah.
Is there anything else you could share about that as a still
under wraps? No, it's about the whole story
is about growth mindset versus fixed mindset.
So when you know, when you look at something, you either have a
mindset of like oh I don't know that.
So I'm not going to go near it versus oh I don't know it so I
want to learn it. So it's about Johnny Mac and
Cheese a little elbow macaroni who's really good at ping pong,
but he's learning his lesson to stretch his mind as you know,
from fixed mindset to a growth mindset through play with
different snacks. I love that.
Yeah. How did you get the idea for
that, like your other kids in your life that this is sort of a
message to know? So I have a writer fan, Tim Cox.
So we were just catching up about the things that he's been
working in Japan. And then we were just, you know,
catching up like a normal conversation during cold because
we actually met in person in the fall.
And I just said, like, you know, I've always wanted to illustrate
children's books and he's like, oh, I really have an idea that I
After my counseling session and the counselor told him to read
this book called mindset. And so he was inspired from that
book and wrote this short story on, Johnny Mac, and Cheese.
And so we sat down and I was like, I think there's something
here that we could actually elaborate it, and make it into a
story. So, that's what we've been
working on with an editor. And I start to illustrate and it
just become became like a lot. Of a tangible and like a great
storyline. Love that idea.
Amazing how these collaborations is turn into like, actual
physical tangible things? What is something that we
haven't talked about that? You'd like to talk about in the
time we have left. Oh, I would say the one thing
that I want to share that's been inspiring for me, personally is
that I remember my dreams ever since I was very young and
during covid-19 Times that it's the Dreamland has been taking it
to another level and that's also been a point of inspiration for
Creative projects for me. So I think that's something that
I wanted to share because I think a lot of wood dreaming,
they remember their dreams, but they dismiss it.
But I think there are times where you pay attention to it
and either listen to a special message from the dreams or it
could be a point of inspiration. I love that.
That's such a good reminder to just get enough sleep to dream
to. Yes, we have a couple audience
questions here that are really great.
I'll just batch them to the together once from Rod and the
other ones from Rouge. I hope I'm getting your names
correctly. The first one from Arad is as a
graphic designer, as a designer in general, what's what do you
think is needed for the future? And then, I'll give you the
second one and we can take them though.
It's Rouge wants to know, how do you deal with creative block?
So what's needed in the future? And how do you deal with
creative block? Mmm, what's needed is, I think,
really thinking hard about what the world actually needs.
If that makes sense because I think, you know, in terms of
products and apps in there, so many things, Are out there so
many information. It's just a lot of things in
different categories and in areas.
So, I think even when you are taking, or considering taking on
the project or producing something or starting something,
I think the good question to ask ourselves is it is actually
helpful for other people. Not just for myself, but for
others, is it helping other people?
I think that's a good way to gauge.
This is actually needed. For for others, that's something
that we've been asking a lot and creative block personally.
Oh my God, I love swimming. So like that's like the one
thing that obviously it was taken away from covid, but being
in the water. So anything near the water like
walk around the Water swimming or taking a bath.
Like, I think, for me like the creative flow is when I'm in
when I'm physically in motion. So, when I'm walking or Or
swimming or jogging or yeah, I think that's what my blink and
it just chills out. That's wonderful.
I feel like, sometimes we can get really stuck, especially in
a studio environment, where just like at the desk or at the
computer and like, not reminder, you just gave us about like
motion. It is so important.
Yes. So to flip the script.
I also like to ask my guess if they have any questions for me.
So you can ask me anything, you like, you know what, I'm going
to ask you. The And that I ask anybody that
I need for the first time. What brings you Joy?
What brings me, joy? I think it's probably be, I get
it a lot in the teaching part of my practice which is like seeing
people being able to unlock their own creativity, whether
it's my students, but also like, with other creative
professionals and designers, that I talked to on the show and
like, seeing things in action, like, I love those little like,
documentary shows that are all about the process of Thing, and
when I see it in my students, over the course of the semester,
I think that gives me a lot of joy that in like our dogs,
wonderful. And you just tell our audience
where they can find you and little fury online.
Yeah, little fury design.com is our website little fury design
Instagram. Or if you have any questions or
anything that you're curious about, you could email me at
Esther at little fiery.com. Thanks again for joining us.
And thank you everybody for tuning in.
I'll see you at the next one. Thank you.
And thank you for listening to another episode of design
future. Now, I'm Li Shan Wang hope
you'll join us on one of our live streams on the aiga design
LinkedIn, Facebook or YouTube channels.
You can subscribe to design future now wherever you get
Podcast until next time,