1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,240 Treat your employees like they're volunteers. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,200 That's my leadership philosophy. Leadership is about leveraging 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,720 the trust of those who choose to follow. 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,080 This comes directly from my years in AIGA and other 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:22,000 volunteer driven communities. Hello everyone, Welcome back to 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,720 a new episode of the AIGA Design Podcast. 7 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:29,360 I'm Julia Donatello, Design Competitions and Events Manager 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,360 at AIG, the professional association for design, and my 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,120 Co host. I'm Li Shawn Huang, Co executive 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,160 director of learning and programs here at AIGA. 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,840 This season of the show, we're exploring the theme Eyes on 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,840 Design. It's inspired in the legacy of 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,240 the acclaimed AIJ Eye on Design publication that ran from 2015 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,320 to 2022. We aim to challenge our 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,600 community to look deeper, connect broadly, and think 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,040 further about design. This season is dedicated to 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,000 fostering a new era of discourse by critically analyzing the 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,560 present and boldly facing the future. 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,800 So the first eye that is our lenses for this programming year 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,840 is the connected eye. We recognize the 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,000 interconnectedness of design with other disciplines such 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,680 technology, science, art, culture, and business, and its 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,360 profound impact on human communities and broader 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,760 ecosystems. Then we have the critical eye, 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,000 which is about being reflective and thoughtful about what we do, 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,440 what we practice, what we make as designers, as well as looking 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,560 through our designerly points of view to critique the broader 28 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,360 context in which we live and work. 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,760 And the last one, the Future Eye. 30 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,760 We will keep tabs on the evolving landscape of design 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,400 practice, analysing emerging trends and transformative power 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,520 of new technologies. So we welcome deep, deep dives 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,200 into topics such as AIVR, sustainable design, and other 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,120 types of innovations. And for today's episode, we 35 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,800 welcome Seth Johnson. He leads the design practice for 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,440 the Chief Data Office at IBM where he overseas teams driving 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,000 AI first enterprise data transformation. 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,160 Welcome, Seth. Hey, Julia, and hey, Lee. 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,040 Sean, it's such a pleasure to be here with you. 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:15,840 Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. 41 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,160 Thanks for joining us. I'd like to jump right into 42 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,560 things, give our listeners some context about your background, 43 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,080 where you've been, how you got to where you are now, and then 44 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,120 also a little bit more about what you do at IBM. 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,800 But let's start with the past. So you've worked in higher Ed, 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,120 you've founded your own studio, and then today you're still, 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,480 you're teaching on one hand that nurturing the next generation of 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,840 design leaders. And then in your primary job at 49 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,560 IBM, we'll talk more about that. But let's jump back to the 50 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,200 beginning. Like how did you get into design 51 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,000 in the 1st place and maybe connect some of the major 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,360 milestones of your career? It's such a fun question and I, 53 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,680 I feel like I'm one of the only designers who didn't come to 54 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,960 design through music. For, for me, it, it started when 55 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:09,280 I was like 12 years old in a used bookshop opening a copy of 56 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:14,880 Dick Hess's monument to Lou Dorfsman and CBS, the Columbia 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,840 Broadcasting System. And something about seeing the 58 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:25,040 totality of design, of his design, the system at scale over 59 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:30,880 many years, touching everything from like an elevator button to 60 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:35,400 ATV commercial to Walter Cronkite's newsroom set, like 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,920 that stopped me in my tracks as a kid. 62 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,320 And eventually I found my way into starting my own studio 63 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,240 'cause I wanted to see if design could like, stand on its own 2 64 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:54,520 feet, not just creatively, but economically and ethically. 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,080 I also wanted to see if I could stand on my own 2 feet, I guess. 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:06,040 And running a small business really collapses the distance 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:11,480 between ideas and consequences. If the work wasn't creating real 68 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,360 value through the eyes of my clients, and if it didn't create 69 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:22,000 trust or if it didn't hold up under pressure, it failed. 70 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,000 And it failed pretty quickly and I didn't get paid. 71 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,200 Yeah. And so pretty fast feedback loop 72 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,920 there. Pretty fast feedback and like 73 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,360 lasting feedback, right? Hit senior wallet and so that 74 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,600 experience also like that really shaped me. 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,960 So I did that for I don't know, eight years, 10 years, something 76 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,080 like that. And I frankly, I got no insult 77 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,920 to my former clients, but I got I just got a little I got a 78 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,480 little bored and my my clients needed me to grow my business 79 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,320 with them. I just wasn't into that. 80 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:59,320 And so I sort of found myself staring down the lens of of like 81 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,520 a mid career pivot. And up until that point in time, 82 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,720 I had done sort of mostly what, you know, we would these days 83 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,560 call pretty traditional graphic design. 84 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,720 I was doing things mostly as a solo practitioner or in really 85 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:19,920 small firms, mostly with a regional or maybe a slightly 86 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,600 national reach. And I thought, OK, well, let's 87 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,120 like, let me just let's do the polar opposite of all of that 88 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:33,120 and see what that's like. So let's do tech, let's do 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,600 gigantic company, let's do global reach, which sounds like 90 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,840 IBM. And so I, I sold my business, I 91 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:47,320 sold my house in Minneapolis, I moved to Austin, TX and I joined 92 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,360 IBM about 8 months into its sort of now storied design 93 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,840 renaissance. And what I was really drawn to, 94 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:58,720 although I didn't realize it at the time, I was really drawn to 95 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:05,880 the complexity like billions of users, thousands of products, 96 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,880 legacy systems, some of which go back 50-60 years, regulation, 97 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,720 just like massive consequences. And I've been with the company 98 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,160 for about 12 years now. My role has continued to evolve. 99 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,880 It's mostly sort of evolved away from designing artifacts or 100 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:32,880 experiences directly and toward designing the conditions under 101 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:40,520 which design can happen at all. And so today, my work, it's less 102 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,760 about the end product, and it's much more about shaping systems 103 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,840 like teams and platforms and even things like incentives and 104 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:52,480 governance and culture. I really strive to create 105 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,600 environments where good decisions are easier and where 106 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:05,520 constant learning is the default so that design and designers can 107 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:14,680 operate with integrity at scale. And I guess I've got like 108 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,560 literally it's right here. Here's this book, blue dorks. 109 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,080 Then get yourself. I have it too. 110 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,560 Yeah, Oh my God. Thank. 111 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,160 You this book. Changed my life like in a way 112 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,320 it's basically the same impulse I had when I was 12. 113 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,800 Like it, it's just expressed, I guess like at a different 114 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:39,360 altitude. As far as IBM and what our chief 115 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,560 data office does, I kind of like to think of IBM as a company 116 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,400 that designs and builds the systems that people are using 117 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,520 inside other systems, which is one of the reasons why many 118 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,920 people don't really know what IBM does. 119 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,360 It's like the system's all the way down, but it's like hidden 120 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,080 under some layers of stuff, yeah. 121 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,280 Yeah. And like it's a very IBM thing 122 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,920 to sort of say, we're not like we don't want you to hear about 123 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:04,920 us. We want you to hear about our 124 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,280 clients because we serve our clients like IBM ERS work where 125 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,400 technology and business and human decision making kind of 126 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,040 all come together. And the chief data office, which 127 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,280 is the part of IBM that I work for, we exist to give our 128 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,880 company a single trusted view of the business and how it's 129 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,280 actually performing. And so that means that means 130 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:39,440 things like governing, integrating, securing accurate 131 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:46,720 data so that my colleagues, so that our IIDM Ers can act with 132 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,600 confidence and increasingly so that AI, which is also a 133 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:58,000 consumer of data can be used responsibly and at scale. 134 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,720 Sometimes, you know, if we're talking to clients or something 135 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,640 about their own, their own data efforts, I, I sometimes get 136 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,160 quizzical looks of, you know, like what, what, why are, wait, 137 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,080 so why does the IBM Chief Data Office have a design team? 138 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,320 That's kind of unusual. That's unusual. 139 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,320 It is. I wish it weren't. 140 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:26,080 So if you think of data as the lifeblood of a business, then 141 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,960 the experience of engaging with that data really starts to 142 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,360 matter. And design can help turn data 143 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:44,360 into something that instead of people dreading, Oh my gosh, 144 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,000 there's so much of this, it's messy. 145 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,920 I don't even know what to start. Like you can turn it from that 146 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,800 into something that people really start to rely on every 147 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,080 day. And when that happens at scale, 148 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:08,960 it becomes data becomes a source of real, sustainable competitive 149 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:15,400 advantage for an enterprise. Yeah, thanks for going deeper 150 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,720 into that. It's I wanted to jump in and say 151 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,720 that we recently had Georgia Loopy on the show and she's 152 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,600 known for her two. Yeah, yeah. 153 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,520 Like her visualizations of data and trying to humanize data. 154 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,760 And you know, a lot of what she talks about is like there's the 155 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,720 stuff that you see that she makes, whether it's on the New 156 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,760 York City subway or at the MO ma. 157 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,880 But she also talks about how data itself is something that's 158 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,800 designed, right. It's like, how do you collect 159 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,160 the data sets? How do you even define what that 160 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,680 data is? And so design is there all 161 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:50,600 along, not just in the the final pretty visualization you see on 162 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,600 the subway or in the museum. Absolutely. 163 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,960 Seth, I wanted to hear from you that has you have already had a 164 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,600 long lasting relationship with AIJ, served as a president of 165 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:07,000 AIJ Minnesota. I think 2012, is it correct the 166 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,680 the date? Sounds about right. 167 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,760 Yeah, directionally correct. Yeah, OK, good. 168 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,480 I wanted to hear a little bit from you, how how did it feel 169 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,600 for you to go on the stage representing IBM receiving these 170 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,840 awards so personally and professionally? 171 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,360 And how has your connection with AIJ changed and evolved 172 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,760 throughout the years? The first thing I want to say 173 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,040 is, is thank you to, to, to AIGA, to the selection jury. 174 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,360 We are, we are deeply grateful for the recognition. 175 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,640 And that moment wasn't about any one person. 176 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,480 It, it, it was about a, a collective body of, of work and 177 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:56,640 shared values and a long standing relationship and 178 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:04,840 commitment between IBM and the people we seek to serve that we 179 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:11,320 do not take lightly. And I think what the award 180 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,480 represented to us was continuity. 181 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,080 You, you mentioned Julia receiving the inaugural award 182 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,080 back in 1980. And so standing there 45 years 183 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:34,200 later, a lot has changed the the world, the technology, the 184 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:40,720 industry, the civil discourse and, and IBM too has has we have 185 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,480 changed almost everything about the company since then, except 186 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:54,240 for our core beliefs. Things like advancing the 187 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:00,200 science of information, applying technology to real problems, 188 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,800 designing systems that help institutions work better. 189 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:12,880 Design has always been part of that equation, not just as 190 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,840 decoration, but as infrastructure shaping how 191 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,960 humans and machines work together at at at global scale 192 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,640 over time. You asked about a personal level 193 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,600 that the moment was it was it was really humbling. 194 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,120 You know it. It brought into focus the 195 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:40,760 thousands of IBM designers and hundreds of thousands of non 196 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,520 designers at IBM who have who have done the the quiet, often, 197 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,120 often invisible work of embedding design into culture, 198 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,200 into platforms, into decision making. 199 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:02,360 And given my relationship with a IGA, receiving that recognition 200 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,800 from a community that helped shape my own understanding of 201 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,320 leadership felt really special. I love that. 202 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,720 That's that's great. Full circle it seems. 203 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,240 My relationship with with a IGA has has evolved alongside my 204 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,000 career. You know, early on it was about 205 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,560 community, finding peers, learning the language of the 206 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,000 design profession, you know, finding like which photographers 207 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,800 to hire or print vendors to avoid. 208 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:37,320 But but like, it was also understanding what it meant to 209 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,560 belong to something bigger than yourself. 210 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,560 At least that's what it felt like to, to me, bigger than, you 211 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,960 know, just your own specialty or your own practice or your own 212 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,360 city even. And in that way, like it was 213 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,360 formative in a really basic way, it helped me understand what 214 00:14:53,360 --> 00:15:00,720 design could be, you know, And over, over time, I get that 215 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,040 relationship. It's shifted for me. 216 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,080 I get it's shifted from, you know, pretty deep participation 217 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,040 to maybe something more like responsibility. 218 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,040 I guess that might not be the right word. 219 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,040 But you know, serving in leadership roles in a IGA taught 220 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,000 me how organizations actually work. 221 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,600 Like the mechanics of signing an affiliation agreement with a 222 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,200 bigger entity, or how to be responsible to a board of 223 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,800 directors and to do's paying members who have questions. 224 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:38,600 How to stare a $50,000 budget gap in the face and through a 225 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,240 ton of hard work and a ton of dedicated volunteers, turn that 226 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,360 into $1,000,000 budget surplus. What it's taught me is how 227 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:54,840 leadership actually works when authority is not around. 228 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,720 But accountability is still very much real. 229 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,560 And I don't know about the the two of you, but like, that feels 230 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:13,000 pretty important today because the community that AIGA serves 231 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,600 and the environment in which it operates is very different than 232 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,640 it was a decade or two ago. And so are the, you know, the 233 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,560 the needs that the stakes, the heroes, the challenges that 234 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,800 they've all changed too. Yeah, totally. 235 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,240 Yeah. And to build on that, Seth, if 236 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,040 you can share a little bit of your thoughts on the IJ's role 237 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,280 in the design community today comparing to how you saw back 238 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,760 then like a decade ago. Yeah, this is something I've 239 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,840 been thinking about for, for a while. 240 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,480 I, I think I'm starting and I'm, I'm glad for the opportunity to 241 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,080 try to crystallize my, my thoughts about it. 242 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:07,839 I think I see AIG as role today as less about defining the 243 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:15,079 profession and more about helping a very broad, diverse 244 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:19,720 community stay connected and coherent in a much more complex 245 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,040 world. Design now lives inside 246 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,920 technology and business and policy and culture or or not, 247 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,080 there are certainly gaps. That raises the stakes for how 248 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,560 designers learn from one another and how they show up 249 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,280 responsibly. One thing that feels especially 250 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:47,080 important right now is AIG as chapter model, which member dues 251 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,760 should be directly funding, and not the opposite. 252 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,560 We're all hyper connected digitally. 253 00:17:53,560 --> 00:18:01,000 But like, I'm still craving real human connection and man, like 254 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,240 AIGA chapters have a proven track record of bringing people 255 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,840 together in their own backyards, not online, not abstractly, but 256 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,480 in rooms in, in conversations across differences. 257 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,080 And like, that's why I think that AIG as role as the as, like 258 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:23,240 the connective tissue designers as conveners, which is a 259 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,040 superpower of designers. I think that really matters now, 260 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,360 not as an authority that people have to follow, not as an 261 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:37,280 exclusionary club, but as as a structure that people choose to 262 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,760 participate in. And that idea that leadership 263 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,600 and community only work when people opt in and feel a sense 264 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,360 of belonging and a sense of ownership when when doing so. 265 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,480 That's something I think about constantly, not just for design 266 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,960 organizations, but in how we lead teams and in how we grow 267 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,680 markets and opportunities. Gosh, and in how governments are 268 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,160 accountable to their citizens again or not. 269 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,800 Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. 270 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,320 And speaking from a person who is an extrovert working full 271 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:21,040 time from home, sometimes I'm really feeling lonely and I have 272 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,000 to push myself to get out of the house, work somewhere else, 273 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,080 Public Library or Cafe or even really sign up for like I have 274 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,840 been to some of the AJ New York chapter events or Creative 275 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,480 Morning. Creative Mornings monthly events 276 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,640 is just very, very inspiring, just awesome. 277 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,760 Yeah. So I very much resonate with 278 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,400 what you're saying in terms of, yes, we're all connected, but 279 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,320 there is some clear distance. I think either, you know, 280 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,480 because the ways we work is is very different nowadays. 281 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,080 A lot of people are working remotely or hybrid and so on 282 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,480 some. So the idea of like a workspace 283 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,680 as we used to have before has changed a lot. 284 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,840 So, yeah, but I, I very much resolute you say and moving 285 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,400 forward. Seth, so a few months ago you 286 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,480 had a conversation with Rachel Ellner from our AIG board, the 287 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,720 national board, and you shared something that really stayed 288 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,760 with me and I wanted to hear a little bit more if you could 289 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,600 elaborate on that. You said that you have an 290 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,040 approach. In your team with to work with 291 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,920 your team members and look at them as if they're volunteers so 292 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,200 choosing every day to be part of your team team at IBM because 293 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,280 they clearly could be somewhere else, right. 294 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,560 So can you elaborate a little bit of on how did this idea come 295 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:43,480 to life in your practice and how do you feel this from what's the 296 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,000 feedback you feel from your, from your team in terms of like 297 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000 their engagement or they the way they they perceive their own 298 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,120 careers? That's a fun question. 299 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:58,520 And 1st, huge props to Rachel Elnar and Eric Cargill for their 300 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240 amazing gift to the design community, their Cheers and 301 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,280 Tears podcast. That's been food for my soul 302 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,520 since it since it launched. Treat your employees like 303 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,520 they're volunteers. That's my leadership philosophy. 304 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,040 Leadership is about leveraging the trust of those who choose to 305 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,480 follow. This comes directly from my 306 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,120 years in a IGA and other volunteer driven communities. 307 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,600 When people aren't paid to show up, leadership becomes very 308 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,360 clear very fast. It's not compliance, it's it's 309 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,800 choice. People participate because why? 310 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,000 They because they believe in the 'cause that they believe in the 311 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000 work, they believe in the mission, and they disengage the 312 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:54,000 moment that belief breaks. And I've carried that lesson 313 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,600 with me into the corporate world, even even though the 314 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,480 context is obviously very different. 315 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,280 Talented people may be employees, but they still have 316 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,200 options. They're deciding every day how 317 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,680 much energy, creativity, judgement they are willing to 318 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,640 invest. We are willing to invest. 319 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,320 I'm an employee too. I have a manager and like that 320 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,920 keeps you really honest. It is is the work as a manager 321 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,760 myself? Is the work meaningful? 322 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,000 Is the direction clear? Do people feel respected and 323 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,280 included? Is the work we are asking them 324 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,520 to do worthy of their talents and their aspirations? 325 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,360 Because if the answer is no, you might get the work, but you're 326 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,800 not going to get the commitment. And you asked about how this 327 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,960 shows that like this. This can show up in really 328 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,480 concrete ways. I try to lead by example, assume 329 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:11,120 positive intent, stay genuinely involved in people's growth and 330 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,400 success, not just not just their output. 331 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,720 It shows up really clearly under pressure. 332 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,400 You know when you're in a really tough situation with your team? 333 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:32,600 Grace, humility, clarity, understanding, humor, those 334 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,360 things matter a lot more than authority. 335 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,280 I found that it's pretty powerful, right? 336 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,160 When when people choose to follow, they bring more 337 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,800 initiative, they bring more thoughtfulness, they bring more 338 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,560 ownership to the work. And you should expect to impress 339 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,920 your upline leadership like with real things like like faster 340 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,760 velocity and lower attrition and increased employee engagement 341 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,600 metrics. All true over time, and it takes 342 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,520 some time. That creates a culture where 343 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,800 people aren't just showing up to work and operating. 344 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,040 It creates a culture where people care. 345 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,360 You can't fake caring, and you certainly can't fake caring at 346 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:30,200 scale. Yeah, I love that. 347 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,480 I wanted to follow up on this thread of design and leadership. 348 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,320 It's been an ongoing conversation about designers 349 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,520 having a seat at the table. You have a seat at a table where 350 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,240 you're at in IBM. A metaphorical table, I guess. 351 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,360 Not in this office you're you're taking this interview in. 352 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,440 Sometimes the table. Sometimes it's a table, but you 353 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,720 know, you've developed your leadership skills from what 354 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,800 we've learned, like running an AIG, a chapter in Minnesota, 355 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,200 running your own studio before joining a big corporation like 356 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,560 IBM where you run a team, right? And so you have this experience, 357 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,080 but what does this look like in a corporate environment and how 358 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,960 is this perceived? I think we've been talking about 359 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,360 this for over a decade now about, you know, designers 360 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,440 having a seat at the table. But what does this look like, 361 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,800 especially at IBM that's really invested in design and elevating 362 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,600 design, even with, you know, the non designers in a global 363 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,000 corporation. So yeah, what does this look 364 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,520 like now from your perspective? And how and how fortunate am I 365 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,120 and, and my design colleagues at IBM to to, to be in, in, in such 366 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:37,880 a place? I tend to start from a pretty 367 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,960 brutally pragmatic place with this particular conversation. 368 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:49,440 The business does not care about design and it shouldn't. 369 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,120 A business cares about market outcomes. 370 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,800 So to the extent that any organization values a 371 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,920 discipline, whether that's design or whatever, data science 372 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:13,320 or legal or sales janitorial staff, it's through that 373 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,920 function's ability to deliver outcomes that matter to the 374 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,920 market. Design matters enormously, but 375 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,680 only in so far as it can change outcomes the way that they need 376 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,320 to be changed. And when I talk about outcomes, 377 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,520 I mean very concrete, measurable things. 378 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,720 Increased revenues, decreased expenses. 379 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,880 What what do businesses care about? 380 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,400 Less risk, more certainty, faster deployments, fewer 381 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,280 defects, more productivity, less pissed off customers. 382 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,440 Those are the currencies that leadership teams actually 383 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:59,400 balance and trade in, and design only earns influence when it can 384 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,080 clearly connect itself and its work to those outcomes. 385 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:11,160 The challenge is, especially in large, complex organizations, 386 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:16,880 that no single function delivers those outcomes on its own. 387 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,160 With all due respect to Amazon 2 pizza teams don't deliver 388 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,400 enterprise software like you don't get higher market share, 389 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,680 lower churn with design alone or engineering alone or product 390 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,680 alone. So you asked, you asked. 391 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,840 I think about about strategy, like strategy happens at the 392 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,920 intersections of those where design and product management 393 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:52,000 and engineering and data and sales and operations and and 394 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,160 where they are working together toward those shared outcomes. 395 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:03,600 I actually think that most solid business leaders understand 396 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:11,880 today that design is in fact a strategic force that can create 397 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,440 competitive advantage. It's pretty rare for me to meet 398 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,880 a non design leader or even just a non designer that doesn't 399 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:23,880 believe that design is important. 400 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,240 What I hear instead, and that wasn't, you know that wasn't the 401 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,160 case 10/15/20 years ago, right? So excellent. 402 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:43,280 But what I hear now is yes, yes, I want great design. 403 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:51,960 How do I actually get it? Or we tried it and it slowed us 404 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:57,880 down. Or even worse, I didn't even 405 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,600 realize we had designers like what? 406 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,520 What have they been doing? Like that's where the breakdown 407 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:09,960 is happening. And candidly, that's that's our 408 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,360 fault. That's not us as designers, as 409 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,680 design leaders. Those failures usually come from 410 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,600 the sin that we accuse other people of, which is a lack of 411 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,520 empathy. A lack of empathy for the non 412 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:32,000 designers that we work with and a failure to integrate into the 413 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,680 systems that we are trying to influence. 414 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:45,480 One of my favorite paradoxes is that IBM, on one hand, has more 415 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,240 than 3000 formally trained designers all over the world. 416 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,920 It's one of the largest design workforces ever assembled. 417 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,520 On the other hand, if you do some quick math, designers are 418 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,440 what, barely 1 or 2% of the total IBM are population. 419 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,280 Yeah, I mean, like it. That's a paradox. 420 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,160 And and it points out that part of what I'm talking about here 421 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,760 is like it's it's a numbers game. 422 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,200 Like designers will always be outnumbered, always. 423 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:30,920 Which means, I'm sorry to tell, that we are the ones that have 424 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,840 to assimilate into the dominant, what the desominant realities 425 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:47,440 and rhythms of the larger hole before we can earn the right to 426 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,800 ask anyone else to change the way they work. 427 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,160 So that that's the foundation that I operate from it. 428 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,360 It's not advocacy for design as like a thing or as a profession. 429 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:11,680 It's situational awareness about how organizations actually win 430 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:19,240 and how design, when it is embedded and accountable and 431 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:27,720 collaborative and aligned, can help organizations do that more 432 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,880 consistently. So I wanted to follow up on this 433 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,280 designing in a corporate environment conversation before 434 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,920 pivoting to ask you about like how design schools and design 435 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,440 education can can help the future designers adapt. 436 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,080 But the follow up question really is about dealing with 437 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,200 constraints. You know, you mentioned earlier 438 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,280 about like this additive dimension of these different 439 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,600 layers of like dealing with engineering and the business 440 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,280 side and technology. And obviously IBM has huge 441 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,320 global scale. But it also means it's a very 442 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,400 different, far greater number of constraints, whether it has to 443 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,880 do with like compliance or just kind of, you know, corporate 444 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,240 regulations, culture, all of those sort of dynamics are in 445 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,760 play. Very different than being a 446 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,360 small studio owner working with a small business where the owner 447 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,240 or the founder of the startup can just be the decider and then 448 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,440 you're done. You go to printer, you, you push 449 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,640 online, right. So like, do you have any 450 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,720 thoughts about that for designers who are entering these 451 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,640 large bureaucracies, these large corporations where there's all 452 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,560 these other things that may be new constraints that we hadn't 453 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680 thought of before in school or in our smaller studio work? 454 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,960 Great designers love swimming in the sea of constraints. 455 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840 And I I think of things that, you know, I used to do a lot of 456 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,440 work in the medical, the healthcare, the pharmaceutical 457 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,960 space. I'm now at a company that, you 458 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,600 know, is a publicly traded company and we often times work 459 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,000 with within regulated industries, you know, things 460 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,720 like regulation. You just define the boundaries 461 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,760 of the problem space that you're working in. 462 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:15,880 And design's job is to create ambition and possibilities 463 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,400 within those boundaries instead of like, trying to route around 464 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:27,200 them. Instead of asking how far we can 465 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,760 go, you might ask instead, like, how well can we solve this 466 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,280 problem for real people given these very real constraints that 467 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,600 we can't ignore? You asked about advice for for 468 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,040 emerging designers, respecting the fact that those constraints 469 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:56,280 are there and being willing and curious to learn why they exist 470 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,920 in the 1st place. That behavior, the very act of 471 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:07,200 doing that in genders, trust. And so in spaces like these, 472 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,800 highly regulated, lots of constraints, creative freedom is 473 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,480 something that you earn. It's not something that you walk 474 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:24,120 in and demand design that consistently delivers outcomes 475 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,360 that are clear and defensible and responsible. 476 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,080 Over time, the organization or your partners or your 477 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:39,080 stakeholders, they will become more willing to let us push 478 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:44,639 further because we have shown that respect to begin with. 479 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,159 I think your point here, Seth, reminded me of a conversation 480 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:54,880 Lisa and I had last year with the innovation specialist Yvonne 481 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,640 Boscardiol from IDB International Interamerican 482 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,360 Development Bank. And he was saying something 483 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,960 about everyone says the usually bureaucracy is seen as something 484 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,880 bad. And he was as an innovation 485 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,400 specialist in such a large organization, government 486 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,240 organization like that. He was saying how the actually 487 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,200 the good points about it right like and it reminded me about 488 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,840 you when you're talking about like emerging designers entering 489 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,240 such a large complex organization such as IBM, the 490 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:32,520 importance of actually learning why this system exists as it is. 491 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,480 So in his case, he was saying why, what's the role of 492 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,800 bureaucracy to keep some, some sense of tradition, legacy, 493 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:45,800 trust and respecting even like the consequences of, of big 494 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,200 changes, right. So if we move too fast, the 495 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,120 consequence, what are the consequences and all that. 496 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,920 So a little, a little bit understanding that the pace 497 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,160 might, might be slower in his case, but there is a, a reason 498 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,840 for that. And there is also, you know, 499 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,040 good things about looking at bureaucracy. 500 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,000 I think it reminded me a lot about your point on trusting, 501 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,640 like being, being open to understand and learn why the 502 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,720 systems work like it, like it is today. 503 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,160 And building trust starts from there. 504 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,120 Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of what we're all taught in design 505 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,600 school. I'm sure it's attributable to 506 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,880 some designer. Like you have to learn and 507 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,600 respect the rules before you can break the rules. 508 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,200 Yes, totally. Yeah, As you were sharing with 509 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,880 us a lot about what it means to design systems and platforms for 510 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,560 for your clients that are very much shaping the future in the 511 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,200 context of today, but also the future, how do you think the 512 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:51,360 next generation of designers will learn to practice design? 513 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,080 So basically my question is here. 514 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,360 Since a couple years ago, we've been introduced to all these AI 515 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,560 tools and the question now the conflict, the friction is how 516 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,920 are we still continuing to be creative? 517 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,480 So keeping our creative intuition and creative thinking 518 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,720 in in an era where AI tools are helping us speed up and somehow 519 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,520 hack the creative process that we've been working so far with. 520 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,280 Boy, that's the that's the question. 521 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,840 Of $1 million. That's the bajillion dollar 522 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,560 question, yeah. Yeah. 523 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,880 Well, let me first approach this from a lens of design thinking, 524 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:42,800 which I like looking through because it inherently makes the 525 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,520 conversation not just about designers, it makes the 526 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,840 conversation about designers and their collaborative partners. 527 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:57,320 And I think I think what still holds true about design thinking 528 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,960 today is its ability to help people align around the right 529 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:09,200 problem. So skills like framing and sense 530 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,320 making and bringing multiple perspectives together and 531 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:19,640 learning through making like those fundamentals are not only 532 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:25,320 incredibly durable, but they're also incredibly human. 533 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:34,160 And I still believe and I think will continue to believe that 534 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,600 certainly in complex organizations, design thinking 535 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,280 is still one of the best tools that we have for turning 536 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,880 ambiguity into shared understanding. 537 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,680 Now you asked about the next generation of designers, design 538 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,120 leaders. How might they learn design? 539 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:05,040 I hope it'll be not as much about learning design as as a 540 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,520 discipline isolated on its own, and more about a way of 541 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,520 operating inside really complex systems, but armed with a 542 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,160 particular set of skills and passions. 543 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:28,360 So I, I hope that learning design will increasingly be 544 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,840 about participating in real evolving environments where you 545 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,440 know, where the boundaries are fuzzy, where the constraints 546 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,800 aren't quite as clear, where the the work doesn't end when the 547 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,720 project shifts. For the pedagogy, I think this 548 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:50,280 means that things like the ability to frame the problem and 549 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,200 deal with objectionable circumstances in some ways, you 550 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,040 know, forced pitfalls, the ability to make sound judgments 551 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,440 as conditions change. I think those things in the 552 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,000 pedagogy will have to be prioritized over the mastery of 553 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,000 a particular tool or a particular method. 554 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,880 Today, higher education does a fairly solid job of preparing 555 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,360 designers to be pretty strong on their own. 556 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,920 But where it still falls short, and this is no different than it 557 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,880 was 10 years ago, like where it still falls short is preparing 558 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,440 designers to work and lead within teams. 559 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,600 Not nearly enough. Not nearly enough students are 560 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,760 given meaningful opportunities to work on team based 561 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,920 assignments. You know, even though no 562 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,720 designer actually works alone. Even freelancers have 563 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:48,200 collaborators. They've got a client and a 564 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,720 customer client and a user, right. 565 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,360 Design is by definition A-Team sport. 566 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,080 So there's that. I also fear that still too many 567 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,600 design programs are insular with their their own institutions. 568 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,440 You know, if I went to a State University or I used to teach at 569 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,920 a Community College, I mean, if you're in one of those places, 570 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,680 you are surrounded by a microcosm of the real world. 571 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,960 You've got, you've got biology and nursing and kinesiology and 572 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,200 business and public policy. Like why aren't design students 573 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,000 partnering with biology students to visualize their research or 574 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,720 professors putting their students in touch, their design 575 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:33,880 students in touch with kinesiology or nutrition 576 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,720 programs to create data visualizations from their 577 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,640 exercise programs or, you know, whatever. 578 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,160 It's that kind of cross disciplinary work. 579 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,480 That is exactly what designers will be asked to do the moment 580 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:54,600 they step into practice. Yet I'm afraid we still rarely 581 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,760 train for it enough. I mean, maybe the last thing 582 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:05,080 I'll say here is that the era of the lone genius designer is 583 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,120 over. It's been over for a while. 584 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:12,040 We're now in the era of the diverse, empowered team. 585 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:17,080 And the sooner that design students to get out of their own 586 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,560 heads and out of their own classrooms, the better they will 587 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,560 be prepared to operate and to lead in the complex systems that 588 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,960 need them. Yeah, it sounds like not just a 589 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,400 curricular change, but like a a mindset change, right? 590 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,240 Because it's not necessarily what you're learning in class, 591 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,920 but just the narrative that you're internalizing. 592 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,000 And there's still a lot of that sort of, you know, great man. 593 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,600 And I'm using the gender term on purpose, given the history of 594 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,960 like that designer that we that is canonized, you know? 595 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,880 You know. And so, yeah, I agree 596 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,680 completely. So Seth, I'm having so much fun 597 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,440 with this conversation, but our time is wrapping up. 598 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,320 So we like to ask some short questions at the end to get a 599 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,240 little bit more color about you and your point of view. 600 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,480 You've already mentioned that designer should be more curious 601 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,240 and empathetic about constraints and understanding why things 602 00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:19,560 they are, why things are the way that they are in a corporation 603 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,000 in a given context. But is there another question 604 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,360 that you wish more designers would think about while they're 605 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:31,440 approaching their work? That designers think about when 606 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,000 they're approaching their work. I wish more designers would 607 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,560 question their own intuition. I wish more designers would. 608 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,080 More frequently, and I'm speaking to myself as much as I 609 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,840 am to anyone else, would frequently challenge their own 610 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,440 beliefs, challenge their own assumptions. 611 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,960 What if the way that I'm thinking about this is not 612 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,840 right? What if the way I'm thinking 613 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,080 about this is massively misinformed? 614 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,880 What if I haven't talked to the right people? 615 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,440 That's something that will never steer one wrong in design 616 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,800 practice, which is to question that which you think is true. 617 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,520 Yeah, amazing. And then so the next one is 618 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,280 actually similar on this vein of like questioning a lot of design 619 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,000 is just questioning the status quo and understanding that 620 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,800 things could be better. So if you could choose like 1 621 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,680 product, service, space or system to redesign, what would 622 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,400 you choose and what are some of the changes? 623 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:43,960 You would make my annoyed answer is that I'd redesign how our 624 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,840 services protect us or don't from spam, from unwanted 625 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,240 intrusion to too much of that burden is like pushed onto 626 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,880 users. My real heartfelt answer, 627 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,680 though, is that I would redesign the New York City subway system, 628 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,880 which I love with all of my heart. 629 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:13,520 And it's, it's so old and I say that in a respectful way and so 630 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,840 important. And it is trying so hard to do 631 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,840 all of the unreasonable things we demand of it. 632 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,720 And it it needs our love and our care and our patients. 633 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,320 And yes, it needs our tax dollars. 634 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:36,480 And that's something that I would love to redesign with 635 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,360 every fiber of my heart might be. 100% agree there too. 636 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,280 As a New Yorker who's left New York and moved to a city with 637 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,720 minimal public transit, it's like, you know, I miss it even 638 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:50,720 though when I'm back it's like, oh, it's so old, it's so slow, 639 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,080 but you know, it still gets you where you want to go. 640 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,120 And you still see some of that Vinelli legacy. 641 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,080 And then they brought it back in those maps too. 642 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,520 So final question is just a recommendation for our listeners 643 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,240 or our viewers. If you're watching this on 644 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:07,480 YouTube, what's something that's been inspiring you lately, Seth? 645 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,360 It could be a book, a film, a song, whatever you want to 646 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,440 recommend to our listeners and viewers. 647 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,560 It's kind of a cop out answer because it's less about who's 648 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:24,120 inspiring me lately and more about who always will inspire me 649 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:32,120 and who I can always return back to when I need help or a lift. 650 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:41,240 And that is the artist Karita Kent, not just for what she 651 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:45,640 made, but for how she lived. You know, she was, she was an 652 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,360 artist and a teacher and an activist. 653 00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:52,680 She believed that creativity was a form of service. 654 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,800 And what I really admire was how she how she combined her 655 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:06,040 conviction with generosity. You know, you've seen her work. 656 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,000 You know, it's bold and it's political and it's joyful all at 657 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,640 the same time. And it's never cynical and it's 658 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:20,920 never closed off. And so Karida can help remind me 659 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:28,600 to to stay open because she did, because she always kept learning 660 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:34,520 and experimenting and changing and listening to younger voices 661 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,920 well into her later years. And so that mix of curiosity and 662 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:47,480 courage and humility, using creativity to widen people's 663 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,480 capacity for for hope that. Feels like a pretty good. 664 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,840 Blueprint for how to be at this point or how to be a human in 665 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,880 the world today. Yeah, that's a great place to 666 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,840 land it. I also share Karida Kent's 667 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,640 rules, the poster of her rules to my students, like every 668 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,360 class. And it's, you know, it's both, 669 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,960 like, rigorous and funny and deeply human at the same time, 670 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,680 which I think is just a great way to set the tone and also to 671 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,080 wrap up this episode. Find a place you trust and then 672 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,680 try trusting it for a while. Beautiful. 673 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,840 Well, thank you again, Seth, and thank you for listening and 674 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,760 watching. We'll see you on another episode 675 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,640 of the AIG Design Podcast. Until next time. 676 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,120 Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this. 677 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,320 And you know, these these are the kinds of conversations that 678 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:44,560 make the work feel worth doing. Thank you, Seth.