1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,200 Hello and welcome to the AIGA Design Podcast. 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:08,720 This season we are exploring the theme of design and performance. 3 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:12,040 My name is Lee Sean Huang, Senior Director of Learning and 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:15,920 Programs here at AIGA, the professional association for 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,400 Design. Hello everyone, my name is Julia 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,480 Donatello and I'm the design Competition and Event Manager at 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,000 AIG. Hello, I'm Michael Kay and I'm 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,880 the Chief Design Officer at Sylvane in New York. 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,880 Welcome, Michael, and it's great to have you on the show today. 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,760 We'd love to learn more about you and your work at Sylvane, as 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,440 well as your career, how you got to where you are today. 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,000 So to jump straight into things, can you tell us a bit more about 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,720 your career so far? How did you end up landing in 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,040 the design world, and what were your initial motivations for 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,400 choosing this career path? So I came to New York after art 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:01,000 school where I studied more drawing, painting, photography, 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,360 and the program that I went to at the University of Louisville 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,800 offered four design classes, Graphic design one, Graphic 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,960 design 2. Graphic design three and four 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:12,920 very. Descriptive. 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Pardon. Very descriptive. 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Exactly. But I did take that coursework 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,400 more as backup, thinking that I was going to go into a fine art 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,640 profession or maybe teach fine art. 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,480 But I also wanted to be in New York. 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,920 So immediately after school, I moved to New York and found out 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,040 that in order to go to school, I would probably have to sell art 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,160 supplies. It probably couldn't afford to 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,440 live in the city. So I started looking for jobs 30 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,400 that I was qualified for and at that time there was a job 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:51,360 listing in the Village Voice, a printed publication to be the 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:58,520 design assistant to the design director at Penguin Books who 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,120 was responsible for designing all of the book interiors. 34 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,120 So not book covers, not book jackets, but really kind of all 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,240 of the non fiction, the fiction, illustrated books, things like 36 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,640 that. And somehow with my kind of 37 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:19,600 thrown together design portfolio and my enthusiasm, I landed that 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:25,400 gig, which is where I learned so much around kind of this fun 39 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,120 typography. Just because since you are 40 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,920 working on the insides of books or the interiors of books, 41 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,680 typography becomes kind of your main tool to hierarchy. 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Understanding of messaging and how to kind of guide somebody 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,800 through what can be a complex kind of journey of words, if you 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,440 will, and three kind of conceptual approaches to 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,000 typographic solutions. How do you make type not only 46 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,880 function that notion of hierarchy, but means something 47 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,560 that and merge into the craft of typography and conceptual 48 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:09,440 thinking kind of really was the foundation for a lot of the kind 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,640 of design knowledge and design philosophy that I have with me 50 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,080 today. And through my experience at 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,840 Penguin Books working on book interiors, I got the opportunity 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,360 to design a book cover. I think what had happened was 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,400 because they were very separate departments, you either were in 54 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,320 the book Interior Department or you were in the book jacket 55 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,160 department. But I think an author had killed 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,160 a book cover and they needed something really quick. 57 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,240 And it was my first opportunity to design a book cover. 58 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,640 So I took that knowledge and kind of my enthusiasm and 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,680 crafted what was my first book jacket. 60 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:57,920 And it was a successful attempt and the book was well received. 61 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:04,640 And that kind of really changed, I guess, I guess, the canvas 62 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,560 that I had been given and I began to get more opportunities 63 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,920 to design the covers within that organization or book jackets and 64 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,760 really became kind of immersed in the world of publishing and 65 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,040 design in a way that I didn't even know existed prior to that. 66 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,960 What it allowed me to build really is an understanding of 67 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:37,640 kind of, I guess you know, how creativity is can be used as a 68 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:46,440 tool to bring ideas, whether those be the ideas of the author 69 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:52,520 or your own ideas to a format that engages audiences, right? 70 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,960 And helps bring these ideas and give them dimension and shape 71 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:03,600 and stuff like that without sacrificing one's own sense of 72 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,640 creativity and one's own passion. 73 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,600 And it really just excited me so much to be reading books and 74 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,840 creating book covers and kind of helping authors move their ideas 75 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:20,400 forward. So as I was doing that or and 76 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,280 these book jackets became notice, I began to think about 77 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:29,360 how these book jackets were kind of these mini brands, if you 78 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,160 will. I was helping authors to find 79 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,080 their brands and wanted to know whether I could do that in a 80 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,880 larger context. So from publishing, I migrated 81 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,800 to branding, where my first gig was at Ogilvy and Mather and a 82 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,160 group called the Brand Integration Group where I was 83 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,840 working with Brian Collins. And then from there, I migrated 84 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:55,160 to a smaller communications agency that focused on luxury 85 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,720 and fashion. So I began to kind of continue 86 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:06,520 to build really kind of, I guess, new reference points and 87 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,000 new understanding of making, right? 88 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,440 All the sudden I'm in the world of image making and photography 89 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,640 and things like that. And from there, I went to a 90 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,280 place called Mother where I helped build or found their 91 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:25,480 design group and also began to build a career that kind of 92 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,480 straddled design and communications, if you will. 93 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,480 It really, you know, kind of, I always kind of felt like design 94 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,200 was a little bit of a stepchild in the world of communications. 95 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,240 But I knew that design was a driver where communications were 96 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,600 concerned. And that's where kind of, I 97 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,480 think that kind of changed really kind of, well, it's 98 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,880 funny, I'm rambling a little bit, but kind of changed kind of 99 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,440 my perception of design and what can design can do for brands. 100 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,960 And then from Mother, I went to a place called Sylvane, which 101 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:01,840 was primarily a strategy company. 102 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,480 And that's where I am now. And I've been building a 103 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,360 creative practice here now for about 3 1/2 years. 104 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,040 Well, thank you for that overview of your career so far. 105 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,240 There's so many threads that we want to pull on, including going 106 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,440 maybe deeper into your book design process, which we have is 107 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,120 a question coming up. But I wanted to follow up more 108 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,040 on the entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship side of your 109 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,440 experience. So you've talked about at 110 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Sylvain building out design practice and what was primarily 111 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,000 a strategy practice previously at Mother Design or you created 112 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,640 the design practice at Mother, which was an advertising firm 113 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,400 before that. So can you tell us what you've 114 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,360 learned about entrepreneurship? Entrepreneurship in terms of 115 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,640 like starting new things or developing out service lines at 116 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,200 companies that were maybe focused on other things before 117 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,320 that? Yeah. 118 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,800 Sure. For me, I think I've always 119 00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:01,240 looked for these roles that provided an opportunity for me 120 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:06,840 and my philosophy and my approach to kind of both making 121 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,480 and teaching to drive my decision making from a career 122 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,960 perspective. And entrepreneurship wasn't in 123 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,200 my mind about starting a new thing. 124 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:25,000 It was actually about coming in and helping a brand or a company 125 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,600 understand what creativity can do for them. 126 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,160 And at the same time, and this is a little, I don't know 127 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,679 whether it's wonky or not, is that I've also always looked for 128 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,080 a place where I can have a creative outlet. 129 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,080 And I want to make sure that that those scales right, how I 130 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,800 can help a company, but they can provide a platform for my voice. 131 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:53,200 And then when I say my voice, it's not about my design, it's 132 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,560 about my approach. And in that approach, it's about 133 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:05,760 bringing in talent that I can help grow and make part of a 134 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:12,400 culture and help really bring the culture of creativity into 135 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,160 an organization or a new way of thinking. 136 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,880 I mean, that is entrepreneurship. 137 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,160 But I've never been like, I'm a founder, right? 138 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,400 Or that hasn't been my motivation. 139 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,880 My motivation has always been to try and further kind of, I 140 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,960 guess, this pursuit of giving creative a larger platform. 141 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,400 Nice. I like how you said that it's 142 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,800 not only about your design, but it's your approach. 143 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,960 And I think I'm curious to learn more. 144 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,160 You, you mentioned earlier how you started your career 145 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,040 designing book covers and we know that you have also been 146 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,800 responsible for designing the cover of books such as The 147 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:04,080 Tipping Point and Fight Club. Can you share a little bit of 148 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,600 the the steps of designing a book cover and how the process 149 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,960 is similar or different than designing for a brand, for 150 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,200 example, and how that has influenced your approach to 151 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,360 design? Sure. 152 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,440 I mean, I think, I mean it's influenced my approach in many 153 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,880 ways. But I think that fundamentally 154 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,840 understanding is really where we begin in all projects, both in 155 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,880 terms of book jackets and in branding. 156 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,720 And with the book jackets, it was understanding the content, 157 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,520 right? Like really trying to, you know, 158 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,440 immerse myself, read, read a book or many books, understand 159 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,120 the author's intent, understand the publishers objective with 160 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,960 that author, how they were positioning that author. 161 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,240 And then also understanding the cultural landscape, what's going 162 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,000 on in design at that time, what's going on in the cultural 163 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,440 zeitgeist in terms of book jackets. 164 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,040 And really synthesizing kind of the information that you're 165 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,000 getting from the book to get to a potent thought, a singular 166 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,720 idea that you can express through that book jacket with an 167 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,760 understanding of all of those other parameters, right? 168 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,200 And what's interesting about the book jacket thing, and I speak 169 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:30,360 to it a bit, is that a lot of times, yes, it was all of those 170 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,480 things, but you were also creating something for the book 171 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,280 shops and the people who unpacked books and you wanted to 172 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,640 appeal to them because they were the people who were deciding 173 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,000 where that book was going to be phased out in the bookstore. 174 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,720 So it wasn't only about this larger kind of understanding of 175 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,040 the book, the marketing, etcetera, but of making sure 176 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:59,080 that you were really connecting with bookstore owners and 177 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,600 authors and understanding what that book jacket could do in a 178 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,400 bookstore. Because books didn't have big 179 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,960 advertising budgets. So a lot of times where a book 180 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,680 was in a store was the only promotion that it got. 181 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,640 So that was a lot of it. And even thinking in terms of 182 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,680 the design where so many book jackets, especially at that 183 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,000 time, were wall to wall type or super aggressive, well, maybe 184 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,320 one should be recessive. Maybe one should allow for a lot 185 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,600 of space because what you're doing is you're actually drawing 186 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:41,240 the eye in a crowded environment to a, a singular things. 187 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:48,400 There's a lot of information and understanding in in in the 188 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,680 development of those ideas that go beyond just the conceptual 189 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:56,000 thinking. But I also think that 190 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,280 channelling an author's idea and trying to make those ideas 191 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,560 potent in a singular thought, like a singular match for The 192 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:10,720 Tipping Point or a Bar of soap for Fight Club, both. 193 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:17,480 I don't even think a match appears in the conversation 194 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:23,600 Malcolm Gladwell was having, but it was much more around how a 195 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:29,880 match is a symbol for kind of ignition of an idea and things 196 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,800 like that. So what are these metaphors that 197 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,240 we can create that actually represent the ideas that the 198 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,800 book holds? That's interesting too, that you 199 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,440 found these singular symbols for both Fight Club and The Tipping 200 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,480 Point that were not so literal or obvious, right? 201 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,920 It wasn't like a scale or for the Tipping Point or like, I 202 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,160 don't know, boxing gloves for Fight Club or something else. 203 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,760 There were different things, but they were still the singular 204 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,880 objects that still was saying something about the theme of 205 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,320 those books. And to connect that to the 206 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,880 larger question, it's like, how does that relate to what I do in 207 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,200 branding? We are as kind of branders, 208 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,840 makers, creating these kind of singular thoughts that need to 209 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,560 have layers, right? They need to have multiple 210 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:23,920 layers and of meaning and inspire more creation, right? 211 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,240 It's not just a logo, it's an identity system, it's a 212 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,840 philosophy. It's a way in which that 213 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,160 identity goes, excuse me, out into the world. 214 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,680 So those book jackets were fundamental or the process of 215 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:45,280 book jacket design was fundamental in my migrating from 216 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,400 publishing to let's say, kind of branding, branding calms. 217 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,080 And another thing in that kind of, I'll say experience was the 218 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,120 fact that especially when I was a creative director at Little 219 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Brown, you're responsible for maybe the creation of 5-6 220 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,120 hundred books a year, not designing them myself, but you 221 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,880 know, whether it's freelancing them, your designing teams, 222 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,800 etcetera. And some of those would be 223 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,640 romance books, some of those would be thrillers, of those 224 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,440 would be literary fiction or nonfiction. 225 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,520 So you also really need to be quite ambidextrous, if you will, 226 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,200 or kind of the ability to understand many things and then 227 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,640 kind of reduce those things to those core essence. 228 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,840 So when I think about all the different kinds of brands that 229 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,200 I've touched and impact, I feel as though that experience of 230 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,080 kind of quickly trying to get to solutions for so many different, 231 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,040 different things has really helped in my approach to 232 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 branding. That's great. 233 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,600 I love your explanation about metaphors and symbols and how 234 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,360 that is representation of cultural zeitgeist. 235 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,920 And I'm curious to hear from you, how do you pursue the 236 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,000 changes in graphic design trends in the past decades and how like 237 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,560 what is the direction that you think they are headed right now? 238 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,040 It's funny, it's, you know, trends in design are always 239 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,360 there. I think that have always been 240 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,920 there, right? But for me, I think that there's 241 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,680 a speed now. I think we go through trends 242 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,280 much more quickly because we're exposed as consumers to so many 243 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:42,360 more things so rapidly that the arc of a trend is much more 244 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,600 compressed. And for me, I don't think I've 245 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,240 always been influenced by trends and what's going on and want to 246 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,920 understand how that might impact a design solution. 247 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,120 But I'm never driven by trends, especially in the world of 248 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,800 branding. I think that there's a trap in 249 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,079 that. And, but it's something that I 250 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:11,599 question a lot now. I, I kind of grew up thinking 251 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,119 that what we created, especially in the brand space as graphic 252 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:21,400 designers, were these artifacts of permanence and an identity 253 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,680 should last forever. And what I'm seeing even in the 254 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,520 reinvention of some identity work that I've done 10/15 years 255 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:36,800 ago is that there isn't really this sense of permanence in 256 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,000 these artifacts that we're making. 257 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:46,680 I think branding has really only been a term been a thing that if 258 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:52,320 you think about graphic design, which really like maybe 60-70 259 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:58,040 years, but there are very, very few identities that were created 260 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:04,920 50 years ago that are still in play today in their initial 261 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,920 conceit. In the same way, there are very 262 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:14,880 few Fortune 500 companies that existed 50 years ago today, 70 263 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,560 years or 50 years ago or 70 years ago that still exists 264 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:25,760 today in their true entity. So I think that permanence, 265 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,600 which was something that I truly strived for in my design, is 266 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:37,280 something that I'm always going to strive for, but I don't know 267 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,840 whether it truly kind of exists or will exist. 268 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:50,840 So trends and speed is a big shift based on technology and 269 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,400 how we receive information. So, so yeah. 270 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,400 And I think that we're, you know, it's like there's a, 271 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,320 there's a, a maximalist aesthetic that has been 272 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,160 prevailing where it's about lots of things with lots of things 273 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,240 moving. And I think we might be 274 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,520 migrating to something a bit more simpler, which I'm 275 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,960 appreciative of. Very cool. 276 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,400 As a follow up, now thinking about the trends and the sense 277 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,920 of permanence that you you brought with the rise of AI 278 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,280 based tools for many functionalities but also for 279 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,720 design, how do you think designers work? 280 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,760 Energy and attention should be focused from now on, So what 281 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:47,600 should be the priorities? I think this is such a loaded 282 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,840 kind of area, right? And I do think a lot about it. 283 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,480 And I think around the tools that currently exist within AI 284 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,320 for designers and why they're created. 285 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,680 And I think there's a lot around efficiency and getting things 286 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:10,960 done more quickly and I think. For me, these tools are tools 287 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:17,720 and we can't forego the things like context and understanding 288 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,360 the context from which we're pulling reference points. 289 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:27,360 We can't forego our own kind of values when it comes to design 290 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,360 and kind of why we're bringing in different reference points. 291 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:38,680 And there's, this is bizarre, but for me, even in a digital 292 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,560 space, design is quite physical. I love the physicality of seeing 293 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:50,480 things move, and I understand more when I move an object 294 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:57,280 around a page. What I feel as though though is 295 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,040 design will evolve to maybe something different through 296 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:08,000 these tools. But what I love about what kind 297 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,680 of both my product is, but what I truly feel design is, is this 298 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,880 kind of physicality, this multidimensionality. 299 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,760 And I think one can get there through prompts, but those 300 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,320 prompts need to come from context that you have. 301 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,720 How we get to that physicality, to that notion of understanding 302 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,280 through diversion is something that I don't quite know yet 303 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,920 because I like to explore really broadly. 304 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,800 And I do find the AI tools much more iterative and building 305 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,160 along a thought and kind of kind of adjusting prompts. 306 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:58,240 And so for me that that sense of diversion and how we understand 307 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,400 things differently is a little bit lost. 308 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,480 So what I've always kind of thought whether it's any new 309 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,720 tool that's being introduced do this is we need to become 310 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,560 familiar with that tool and how that tool can help us realize 311 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:23,600 our vision, not rely on that tool to construct my vision. 312 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:31,960 For me, yeah, I wanted to pick up on what you said about your 313 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,280 love of physicality and actually moving objects. 314 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,000 So going back to these examples of two of your iconic book 315 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,480 covers, like the the soap bar on the Fight Club cover or the the 316 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,240 match on the Malcolm Gladwell book, Like were those concepts 317 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,080 that you kind of sketched out on paper where you like playing 318 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,800 with physical objects and laying them out to see how they would 319 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,040 work? Like because those are like real 320 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,520 life objects. Like how? 321 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,240 How did you come to those concepts? 322 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,040 I think that Fight Club kind of different stories, right, Like 323 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:11,480 Fight Club was this very violent book, but yet the soap and the 324 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:17,680 soap made from liposuction fat played a key role as a kind of 325 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,680 as a moment in the book. And for me, this notion of what 326 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,920 we think of something as so clean and kind of, you know, 327 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:34,280 like nonviolent actually reference this kind of very kind 328 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,000 of, you know, aggro kind of idea there. 329 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,400 There's just something in that tension. 330 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,680 And there I actually, I, I did research and I went to a soap 331 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,400 maker and I was like, what would soap made from liposuction fat 332 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680 actually look like when they told me it would be this clear 333 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,560 glycerin like bar. And I loved that tension between 334 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,320 the kind of clarity of the soap and again, the violent 335 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:09,960 undertones of the book. So we actually made so and I 336 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,480 designed that you see kind of the typography there has a bit 337 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,920 more of that kind of masculine kind of boxing reference. 338 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,320 And so that idea of stamping that typography into that soap. 339 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,000 So we made these physical bars of soap with a metal plate and 340 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,400 photographed it. And similarly, there was a, you 341 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,640 know, at that time kind of garage fonts and kind of things 342 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,920 like that were very trendy. And so I used a garage font and 343 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,560 kind of this, I don't even remember the name of it and 344 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,080 fucked it up a little bit again to get at that thing. 345 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,400 But I know I spent not only a shit ton of time crafting the 346 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,680 Fight Club typography to have this kind of, you know, poster 347 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,640 like quality, but how I moved objects around the page, 348 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,440 creating space for that soap. If I remember correctly, that 349 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,480 type kind of bleeds off the bottom and is working with the 350 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,440 edges to create this sense of tension. 351 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,560 So not only is there the conceptual thinking and the 352 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,520 creation of the soap, but there's a lot of attention 353 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,080 played to the letter forms and what the letter forms are doing 354 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,240 not only with each other but to the physicality of the book. 355 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,520 Sorry, that's the one that I did with fight or with, excuse me, 356 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,840 with tipping point quite different, right? 357 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,040 What are the what are the symbols that you know, you said 358 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,160 the scale, what are the symbols that might represent the 359 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,840 transference of ideas or trends or how things might move? 360 00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:00,000 And also kind of there was a, this is kind of a, you know, 361 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,320 social sciences business book. And I wanted to change the 362 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,520 paradigm of a category. And it was also Malcolm Gladwell 363 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,680 who was like a New Yorker writer. 364 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,440 It wasn't like a business book. And so I, I kind of wanted to 365 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,280 shift that. So I took a lot of the 366 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:27,760 typographic information from literary fiction and added just 367 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,560 this little kind of symbol around the transference of ideas 368 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,880 to really shift how books in that category might be seen and 369 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,840 perceived. And both elevate the category 370 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:47,280 into a more literary space, but also not use the conventions of 371 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,520 both the category or the metaphors to express the ideas 372 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,920 within the book. And so this, and it's funny, by 373 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,760 the way, I collect so many things and objects and, and I'm 374 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,160 always moving my shelves around to be like, oh, how do I 375 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,880 highlight this thing? Or does this, it's almost like 376 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,200 these like little shrines, if you will. 377 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,760 And so the moving of objects and the space between objects makes 378 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:22,320 us feel differently. And I've always looked at 379 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,480 typography and design as a vehicle to make people feel. 380 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,720 And when things are tight, they create tension. 381 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,000 When things are loose, maybe sadness or a sense of ease. 382 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,720 So objects, and that could be a physical object or that could be 383 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,880 a piece of typography has meaning in itself, but how it's 384 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,800 placed, how we use it actually adds an additional layer. 385 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,040 Things that I strive for, whether I'm working in on a book 386 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,760 jacket or an identity as I want to make sure that we're not just 387 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,840 talking about surface. It's not it's never 2 388 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,720 dimensional. Even when it's two-dimensional, 389 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,880 it should always have meaning. It should always have a sense of 390 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,400 kind of space and what that space means. 391 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,800 And that's that physicality that I'm talking about. 392 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,640 It's, I don't know, it's the richness. 393 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,920 How do we bring, And this goes to that trend conversation too. 394 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,920 It's like, yes, there are trends and yes, we can use some of that 395 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,520 componentry, but I'm not using a trend for trend sake. 396 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,360 I need to build layers and meaning into it so it stands 397 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,800 out. Like it needs to fit in and 398 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,280 stand out, right. So I might rely on something 399 00:28:54,280 --> 00:29:00,080 that is cultural zeitgeisty, but that's only about fitting in. 400 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,440 That's a value to something brands, right? 401 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480 But if I just fit in, how am I me? 402 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,000 How am I standing out? How do I kind of, I don't know, 403 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:18,440 move forward, move beyond that. So it's like these delicate 404 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,560 tools that you really need to use with care. 405 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,280 I love your example about the soap and how you you played with 406 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,960 the physicality of the object to get your inspiration from it. 407 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,480 And I think it reminded me of when I was in my master's 408 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,120 degree, master's program last, last year actually, not last 409 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,920 year, the previous year, no. Yeah, we talked a lot about 410 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,840 research through making. And I think that's it's a good 411 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,200 example of how you used you saved some time to play around 412 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,720 with physicality of the objects to get to a point of what's the 413 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,880 symbol that I want to make sure I include in the in the cover of 414 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,440 of my book. So I love that example. 415 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:09,560 Yeah, and, and accuracy and understanding where, where, 416 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,600 where accuracy is important. And then how do you build on 417 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,560 that? It goes back to one of the first 418 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,280 things I was saying around understanding. 419 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,240 And it isn't only understanding of a brand or understanding of 420 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,440 the content of a book. It's actually the understanding 421 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,640 of, and it actually goes back to the AI thing too, right? 422 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,120 It's like understanding of the cultural references that you're 423 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,200 pulling in. That's where the AI thing hurts 424 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:48,120 me a little bit is like when I'm using those tools, I'm actually 425 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,120 pulling in data that I have no frame of reference for. 426 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,520 And is that OK? I mean, yes, because it's a tool 427 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,440 and everybody has it, but it has less meaning for me. 428 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,320 And so I have access to it, but I don't have understanding of 429 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,080 it. And I don't even know what part 430 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,560 of what I'm making through those tools is influenced by things 431 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,600 that, you know, again, no, no, no frame of reference for and, 432 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,560 and, and, and frankly, am I biting somebody that I don't 433 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:30,640 even know exists? And how are they getting credit 434 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,920 for what I'm making? It's, it's so loaded. 435 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,280 And because I think of design and what we do as such a 436 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:46,400 personal thing, it's so hard for me to accept that I'm going to 437 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,360 bring in things that I don't understand and kind of claim 438 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,840 ownership or claim craft over it. 439 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,800 So that's it's hard for me. Yeah, that's great. 440 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:08,280 Michael, you you've spoken about the anomaly of the date. 441 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,760 I'm curious to hear more from you. 442 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,800 How do you define this concept and why do you think it's 443 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,880 important for today's design context? 444 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,880 Sure. The anomaly of delay is for me 445 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,680 kind of a warning, a watch out that these things that we're so 446 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,240 used to in the physical world around serendipity and 447 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:45,560 happenstance and how we kind of, I don't know how we now try to 448 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,880 replicate these things in a digital space. 449 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,400 And how brands are beginning to Co opt notions of serendipity 450 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,800 into how they market to us. And the dopamine releases that 451 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,080 were once just things that existed out there are now things 452 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,360 that are actually being cultivated by the brands that we 453 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:15,960 work with to illicit clicks. There's a, you know, I always 454 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,200 want brands to do things that are surprising and delightful, 455 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:27,040 but at times I feel that they're tired and manipulative. 456 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,720 And we see these things over and over again. 457 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,640 So when I talk about the anomaly of delight, what I'm actually 458 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,720 talking about is the anomaly of true delight. 459 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,440 The anomaly or meaning that these things that are happens 460 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,760 dance that bring joy into our world or excite us or engage us 461 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,520 are now synthetic at times. And we as designers are being 462 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,720 asked to make these things right, to create these things, 463 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,840 to craft these things because our work is now to the, to the 464 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,160 point of the conversation, Our work isn't being evaluated by 465 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,480 our brands as wow, that's an amazing piece of design work. 466 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,880 It's that piece of design work, work garnered X amount of views 467 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,560 and X amount of clicks. So can you do that? 468 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,840 Again, this touches on all the conversations we've been having, 469 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,719 right? Trends, AI like, and so for me, 470 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,080 how are we kind of creating? I'm going to say, I'll say 471 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:37,360 dissonance, but how are we not reinforcing what brands are 472 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:45,760 asking us to do, which is to create not our best design work 473 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,080 ever, not the not those artifacts, but the artifacts 474 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,280 that are actually generating engagement? 475 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,160 And are we as designers looking at our work in that same way? 476 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,800 Michael, do you have an example of how serendipity plays a role 477 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,960 in in in the brand like brand design process? 478 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:25,400 I like with my teams when we're crafting brands to create a set 479 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:31,280 of tools that allow for I'm going to say anything to happen 480 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,200 and for those tools to be responsive to a cultural trend. 481 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,720 Can the tools that I make in a conservative way appear 482 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,240 literate? Can they appear trendy? 483 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,600 Can they make somebody laugh? Can they make somebody cry? 484 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,280 Like a brand needs to be prepared to do all of those 485 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,360 things through their voice. And so for me, it's when you 486 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,880 start to go down the trend path, when you're creating a piece of 487 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,120 design for a brand, you're actually making it smaller than 488 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:09,040 it needs to be and potentially not giving it the lifespan that 489 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,280 it could actually have. And so whether that's a trend 490 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,080 that you're kind of sculpting and moving forward, I'm not 491 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,720 going to speak about specific work out in the world, but 492 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:27,200 sometimes I feel as though identity is being crafted for 493 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,240 this moment in time so that people notice it, but it's not 494 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:35,880 being crafted to do all the things that a brand might need 495 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,920 to do over time. Yeah, I love to think that 496 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:46,960 you're the example you gave is I'm reflecting on how how hard 497 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,960 it is to design for a brand to be somehow flexible. 498 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:59,240 So it's flexible in a way that can navigate different times and 499 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:05,240 then make sure that exists for longer, but also not to lose 500 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,200 that it loses its personality, right. 501 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,000 So that's I think that's the the hard part. 502 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,240 What's the limit of how loose you designed this for? 503 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,360 And what's funny and cuz, you know, I probably won't be 504 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,440 around, but it's, it's this notion that maybe at some point 505 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,120 I like the brand shows up differently for me than it shows 506 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,400 up for you. And that's where I'm super 507 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:39,360 interested in like, you know, what do I use X brand for and 508 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,040 how do I see that brand in my world? 509 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,200 And you know, I think algorithmically brands are 510 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,160 already doing that in some ways in terms of the bits of content 511 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,320 that they're sending out to different kinds of people. 512 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,360 But imagine if identity showed up differently because it 513 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,080 understood me. It understood that I liked brown 514 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,920 and orange and slightly retro things, and then you may be more 515 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,240 minimal and black and white. And it actually showed up that 516 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:16,600 way because it understood that it would get more engagement 517 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,240 from you if it showed up that way then for me, And I do think 518 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,120 that that will happen over time, but I don't know whether that's 519 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:30,360 good or scary. Yeah, that's a good point. 520 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,040 I want to jump into the new hot topic, which is the Mata is now 521 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,120 changing its fact checking processes and that might reflect 522 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,160 in in the influence of algorithm on on the way we interact with 523 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,040 content in social media being even more important, So 524 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,640 increasing the influence of algorithms. 525 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,280 So how this algorithm era that is shaping our digital 526 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,440 experiences and oftentimes make us live in a digital space in a 527 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,120 very curated bubble. How is this limiting the real 528 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,120 life interactions and the surprises that you mentioned 529 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,960 earlier as surprises being also good or bad or some type of 530 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,480 friction? So in your opinion, what do you 531 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:21,200 think is the role of designers in reintroducing the humanity 532 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:27,480 and this unpredictability into this digital? 533 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:32,240 Spaces, there's a lot in there. That's a lot of questions. 534 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,840 I'm going to try and kind of like I was because I knew that 535 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,640 question might come up. I have been doing a lot of 536 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,720 thinking around it and on. It's very interesting to me that 537 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:48,360 what we've been working towards, I'm going to say over the past 538 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:54,440 however many years to kind of eliminate the the elimination of 539 00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,280 fact checking in essence for me creates something quite 540 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,840 dangerous. The Metavert Where we've taken 541 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:12,280 great strides in trying to eliminate spaces for hate in the 542 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:17,560 real world, taking statues down, changing street names, the 543 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,560 metaverse is now a place where hate can exist. 544 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,880 And so this new metaverse is actually going backwards in 545 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,080 terms of the values that I believe we should uphold. 546 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,680 But maybe I'm a minority there. And really what's happening is 547 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,640 the true voice of the collective world is coming forward. 548 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,880 I'm going to stick with my point of view. 549 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:49,880 Frankly, what we fail to see is, you know, we we pay for it to be 550 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,920 part of those platforms in the same way a brand pays to 551 00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,280 advertise. And so we're actually paying for 552 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,720 our voice to be seen and heard. We're providing opportunity for 553 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,920 clicks and clicks are where brands are making money. 554 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,200 And so these decisions are money making decisions and they're 555 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,600 money making decisions that potentially reverse some of the 556 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,160 progress that we've made in terms of social equality. 557 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:28,280 But I can tell you right now, if I wanted to buy a billboard to 558 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,480 talk about viewpoint that was negative towards a group of 559 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,320 people, I wouldn't be allowed to do that. 560 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:44,200 Yet I can pay to optimize my platform, to boost my platform, 561 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:51,200 to boost my point of view in the metaverse, to move forward ideas 562 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,040 that don't necessarily align with culture. 563 00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,960 And I find that problematic. And then more broadly, and this 564 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,960 might again just prove out that my ideas of social progress are 565 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,840 really held by a minority. And I hope that that's not the 566 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:17,640 case, but the notion that that we don't even understand that 567 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,440 we're participating in the like somebody's making money from the 568 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,920 monetization of our ideas. We participate in it for the 569 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,280 dopamine release, but there's there's no like, oh, somebody 570 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,280 did like somebody's making money off of all of that. 571 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,400 And we're innocent by stick, not even innocent. 572 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,480 We're bystanders in that because we're addicted to something 573 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,280 different. And I know that that's not truly 574 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,160 the question that you're asking. You're asking how does that 575 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:57,680 impact kind of us as designers? And for me, and this might even 576 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,880 go back to the entrepreneur question is why are we working 577 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,960 where we are working? Are we aware of what we are 578 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,280 doing when we take a job as a creative or when I work for a 579 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,920 brand and I work for that brand, so I'm actually a participant. 580 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,520 And so it gets to this really weird value based conversation. 581 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,960 It used to be as a design. I'm not as a designer, I'm not 582 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,120 going to work on tobacco or I'm not going to. 583 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:32,240 But we don't really think about the brands like this that are 584 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:36,800 now employing a huge percentage of the creative community. 585 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,720 We don't really look at those as value based decisions or I don't 586 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,640 think we do. And so and this is something 587 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,200 that I do now struggle with personally in terms of brands 588 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,600 that I work with that have recently eliminated D and I 589 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,080 initiatives after Trump selection. 590 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:02,120 It's like how do we as designers have our not be compromised with 591 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,600 our integrity, but also understand that what we're 592 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,320 doing, even though it might be as I go off screen all the way 593 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:16,720 over here, truly kind of generating or participating in 594 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:21,320 something that culturally is misaligned to our own values. 595 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,920 Was that way too off piece? No, I thought that was really 596 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,480 helpful. I mean, I think it's a, it's a 597 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,560 tough topic and a big question for sure. 598 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,360 You've mentioned before and I think it connects to the next 599 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,880 question of what you do as a teacher, as an educator. 600 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,000 So I looked on your LinkedIn. You've taught at the School of 601 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,480 Visual Arts in the past, but also in your leadership role 602 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,440 now. I'm sure you are teaching, 603 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,600 educating members of your team as well as listeners of this 604 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,080 podcast. So do you have advice for our 605 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,480 listeners, our viewers who are maybe earlier on in their design 606 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,640 careers? Like are there yeah, anything 607 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,640 that you would say to a younger Michael or to a younger 608 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:11,520 designers coming up today? Care, it's really simple. 609 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:21,400 It's like, for me, I care about everything that comprises a 610 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:27,240 piece of design as a reflection of myself and as a reflection of 611 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,760 where I would like design to go or where I would like the world 612 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,800 to go. And I'm not saying that I'm 613 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,800 perfect by any stretch of the imagination. 614 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:46,240 I've actually worked on projects that I now regret based on not 615 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:51,160 understanding the company's values kind of more deeply. 616 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,240 And I'm not saying that we can do that 100% of the time. 617 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:03,400 But I do think that what I've noticed is that because of the 618 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:09,720 commoditization of design over the past 1020 years, that a lot 619 00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,720 of people are moving into the design space because it's a good 620 00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:17,800 job. I didn't want a job. 621 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,800 Yeah. You know what I'm saying? 622 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,040 Like I wanted a space to make, and I think that those who enter 623 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,880 into the design or the creative profession because it's 624 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,960 lucrative now are actually doing design a disservice. 625 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:41,880 Yeah, I agree. So to connect us to our theme of 626 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,680 performance this season, I'd love to hear what you think of 627 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,040 this word performance. We've already touched upon it in 628 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,760 different ways, whether it's about the kind of super 629 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,520 quantification of things, say on social media or how brands 630 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,320 measure their performance online. 631 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,120 Obviously doing it a podcast interview like this is also a 632 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,200 kind of performance teaching is a kind of performance. 633 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,320 So yeah, how do you think about that in terms of your current 634 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,640 work at Sylvain, like how you measure performance or how you 635 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,200 think about performance when you're pitching your work, 636 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,240 presenting your work? However you want to take this, 637 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,800 this is meant to be open-ended. Yeah. 638 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,560 I mean, there are a lot of layers to that. 639 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,480 I think it connects immediately back to the last thing around. 640 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,080 I want to make sure that my performance as a professional 641 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:37,480 has really helped in terms of inspiring, whether that be 642 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,760 businesses and brands or individual creatives, in terms 643 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,000 of finding their voice and being able to similarly perform. 644 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,440 I think for me, like the performance, the physicality of 645 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:57,040 creating, the act of making, Which I see as a dance. 646 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,840 I've always like wanted to, you know, speed up the creation of 647 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,560 an identity process, you know, film illustrator and all of the 648 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,400 moves and the dance and the choreography because that is 649 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,040 poetic in some ways. And you can see kind of 650 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,160 movements and gestures and kind of the swelling and the 651 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:25,240 reduction to get to simplicity. So another component of 652 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,480 performance that I really like. And you know, when we talk about 653 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,360 AI and it becomes much more around prompting versus kind of 654 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,360 sculpting, how are we using words to perform? 655 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:44,320 And then I like, I want the work that I do and the work that my 656 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:49,120 teams do to perform for the brands and the businesses that 657 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,520 we're kind of hired to, to the reasons why we're hired. 658 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,760 I evaluate that performance through the metrics of 659 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:03,880 engagement, yes, but also brand perception, brand integrity, 660 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,000 things that add substance to that to to brands, right. 661 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:14,080 And so I think it's the like you could look at the word 662 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:20,840 performance as kind of artifice, but if your values are intact, 663 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,840 then performance should have meaning and impact and help 664 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:31,480 brands progress, help individuals progress and help 665 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,080 ideas progress. Thank you for your thoughts on 666 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:41,240 that final two-part question to take us out for the show. 667 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,040 We'd like to ask all of our guests for recommendations of 668 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,320 inspiration. So what is something that you 669 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,200 would like to recommend to our listeners? 670 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,080 To our viewers could be any piece of media as long as you 671 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,320 didn't make it yourself. And then we'll give you the 672 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,600 final say as well in terms of whether self promotion or just 673 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,680 connecting with our viewers, listeners, you can tell folks 674 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,760 where to connect with you online as a call to action to take us 675 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,680 out. I'm going to be more broad here, 676 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,000 OK? I mean, this is not from the 677 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,600 perspective of being a Luddite because I'm definitively not. 678 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,080 I embrace technology and everything that it allows us to 679 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:28,640 do, make connect to, etcetera. But for me, my recommendation is 680 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,320 more broadly going out and experiencing so that you can 681 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,240 bring those feelings back. And I know you're wanting what 682 00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:43,960 exhibit, what thing I got a bad exhibit is as influential as a 683 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,960 good exhibit. And so for me, it's exposing 684 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,760 oneself. And I like it in the real world 685 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,160 because I think that there the physicality comes in. 686 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,400 But I think that the way in which we allow ourselves to be 687 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:05,640 exposed to different points of view, different kinds of work 688 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:12,520 out in the world called media formats, etc, is super important 689 00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:17,600 to inform our points of view and what we put out into the world. 690 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:22,480 And I think there's so much stuff that is kind of insane and 691 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:32,720 amazing that we can touch, feel, partake in that we somehow are 692 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:37,480 feeling satisfied scrolling by it and being like, oh, I got 693 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,320 that right. Oh, I got that. 694 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,080 But for me, it's the physicality part of it, the see, like 695 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,240 understanding what it smells like, right? 696 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:54,280 Or looking at the person next to you reacting like it's not only 697 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,320 about our approach to seeing, it's about our approach to 698 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:04,000 seeing other people see. And so without that, when it 699 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:09,840 becomes so singular screen oriented or so contained in 700 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,160 boxes, I believe that we're missing things that can actually 701 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:21,080 truly inform what we make and how we change and how we engage 702 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:25,840 with a, you know, it's like, and so I am avoiding a question, but 703 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,200 I'm not avoiding the question because I actually believe the 704 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:34,200 answer isn't in what's the next best thing, it's potentially in 705 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,400 what's the worst thing. Yeah, and we can learn from 706 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,760 those things, too. Like, I'm not going to say the 707 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,320 movie, but I saw a terrible movie this week and it's like I 708 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,280 learned a lot from it. And there were things that were 709 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,480 like, interesting that I liked about it, but then other things 710 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:48,840 that were just fundamentally awful. 711 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,080 Right. And but that was still a 712 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:51,920 learning experience. Yeah. 713 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,840 And it's gonna change your approach to the next thing that 714 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,160 you do, you make. And we need that, yeah. 715 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,240 More than ever. Well, thank you for sharing your 716 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:09,120 wisdom. I love getting our questions 717 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,520 reframed as well. I think that's a really 718 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,280 important part of being a designer and thinking critically 719 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,320 just as a as a citizen, as a person living in the world 720 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,120 today. So yeah, finally, Michael, could 721 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,080 you give us a call to action to take us out, whether it's to 722 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,040 connect with Sylvane or with you or however, wherever you want to 723 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,840 send our listeners and viewers? I mean, my name is Michael Ian K 724 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,920 and I am at Sylvain. And I don't know, like reach out 725 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,720 via insta. That's probably the best way to 726 00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,200 kind of get me at this point. And I'm citing a meta thing, 727 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,880 right? Which is kind of wonky after 728 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,240 what I just said, but I am there and it's probably the best way 729 00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:48,000 to ping me and we'll figure it out from there. 730 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,520 Awesome. Thanks again for joining us. 731 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,960 Thank you for tuning in to the AIG Design Podcast. 732 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,960 Again, we're on video on YouTube or you can listen to us wherever 733 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,680 you get podcasts and also save the date for our upcoming 2025 734 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,280 AIG Design Conference in Downtown Los Angeles, October 735 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,880 9th through 11th, 2025. Hope to see you there or at a 736 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,280 future AIG event or episode of the show. 737 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:13,160 Bye.