1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600
First place to start is don't 
bill by the hour. 

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,500
That is the bane of, everybody's
existence for two reasons. 

3
00:00:06,500 --> 00:00:08,900
Number one, it doesn't reward 
you for being really good at 

4
00:00:08,908 --> 00:00:11,000
your job and are being more 
efficient. 

5
00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:14,500
And then number two, it 
automatically puts you at odds 

6
00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:18,200
with your client because the 
benefit for your client is to do

7
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,500
your work faster. 
The benefit for you is to take 

8
00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,000
longer, okay? 
So it puts you at odds with your

9
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,000
client unnecessarily. 
So in my opinion, the other 

10
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,300
pieces to is in order to build 
by the hour, you got to track 

11
00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:29,800
time and there's literally 
nobody. 

12
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,900
That's going to tracking time. 
So, value based billing is the 

13
00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:38,200
way to go. 
Hello, and welcome to design, 

14
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,400
adjacent the podcast that talks 
about the Nexus of design both 

15
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,400
today. 
And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben

16
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,500
EF Johnson and today, our 
special guest is a CPA. 

17
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,800
Yes, you heard me correctly when
design adjacent. 

18
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,800
Our Guest today is a CPA it's 
none. 

19
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,900
Other than Chris her Bashan of 
Better Way. 

20
00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:02,300
CPA, Chris has a name Credible 
background in accounting and 

21
00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,500
Finance in working with small 
and midsize businesses. 

22
00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,100
He spent 10 years before 
starting his own firm, in 

23
00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:11,500
forensic accounting and 
corporate accounting working in 

24
00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,300
finance. 
With major organizations, he's 

25
00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,900
been featured in Publications 
such as accounting today. 

26
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,000
American Express is open Forum 
LendingTree and the success 

27
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,400
defined podcast, CMS wire and 
CEO Nation block Chris stays on 

28
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,600
top of top industry trends It is
often called a gun for his 

29
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,100
passion for the accounting and 
finance industry, which is 

30
00:01:35,100 --> 00:01:37,800
evident by the number of 
extracurricular programs, he's 

31
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,100
been involved in. 
He volunteers as a youth member 

32
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,200
of the aicpa, he's led, the 
retention task force. 

33
00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:49,100
He's worked on both business and
industry Affairs committees and 

34
00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:53,300
has been featured as one of the 
top 40 under 40 in the counting 

35
00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:57,300
professions by CPA, professional
advisor magazine, a graduate of 

36
00:01:57,300 --> 00:01:59,800
Elon University with a degree in
accounting. 

37
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,600
In minor in finance. 
He's a certified public 

38
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,700
accountant. 
So today I'd like to welcome 

39
00:02:04,700 --> 00:02:07,100
Chris to the design adjacent 
podcast. 

40
00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:09,800
Thank you for joining me. 
My friend, absolutely, thanks so

41
00:02:09,808 --> 00:02:12,400
much for having me when we think
about design. 

42
00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:15,600
And we think about design 
business is that design space? 

43
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,600
We often don't think about 
accounting but the counting is a

44
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,700
clear critical part of any 
business adventure. 

45
00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,600
Talk a bit about what brought 
you into accounting. 

46
00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:29,600
Oh, holy cow! 
That's a great. 

47
00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:32,700
Russian. 
I always had a penchant a little

48
00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:39,000
bit for entrepreneurship and 
math but not high level math. 

49
00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,100
Even more like the addition and 
subtraction type stuff that that

50
00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:43,700
accountants do for the most 
part. 

51
00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:47,400
And, you know, certainly money 
and I've hustled pretty much my 

52
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,200
whole life. 
So I took an accounting class in

53
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,000
high school because my dad said 
I was going to be a good idea. 

54
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,200
He was an accountant to and that
really didn't go well, so kind 

55
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,000
of dropped the idea. 
And when I went to college, I 

56
00:02:59,008 --> 00:03:01,800
was going to Major in finance 
because I thought that that was 

57
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,000
a little bit of a less strenuous
path. 

58
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,300
So to speak and I took my first 
accounting class because that's 

59
00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:13,000
part of the finance major and 
had a great accounting professor

60
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,900
and did really well on it. 
And then she just explain things

61
00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:18,800
in a totally different way than 
what I had experienced in high 

62
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,400
school. 
And my dad said me a look, you 

63
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,300
can do anything that you want to
do with in finance with an 

64
00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:26,400
accounting degree and then some 
and that would be really a path.

65
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:27,800
So you kind of talked me into 
it. 

66
00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:32,800
And when got my degree, 
Graduated from college and 

67
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,800
about, let's see a month before 
his going to graduate. 

68
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,600
I told him, you know look I'm 
going to go turn pro. 

69
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,800
I was I played college golf a 
little bit and really really 

70
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,100
love golf and play Junior 
golfer. 

71
00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,600
So I'm going to go turn pro said
okay well you'll know you'll 

72
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,200
know when you go broke and so 
sure enough he was right and 

73
00:03:50,300 --> 00:03:53,600
yeah then so I did that for 
about a year and a half and went

74
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,100
back to school and start long. 
Did that take before you went 

75
00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:57,600
broke and take? 
Didn't take long. 

76
00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,800
It was about five minutes in the
grand. 

77
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,100
Yuma things, right? 
And then when we're back to 

78
00:04:03,108 --> 00:04:06,400
school and got the hours, I 
needed to go and get certified 

79
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,500
and pass the CPA exam. 
And, you know, I defy for a 

80
00:04:09,508 --> 00:04:12,000
number of years and here I am 
out of my own at this point but 

81
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,600
not on my own for four years. 
Awesome. 

82
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,600
So I asked this question, what 
are some of the lessons you took

83
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,100
from that transition to 
beginning Pro in golf to your 

84
00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:24,600
work today? 
Like moving from Hobby to 

85
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,300
professional? 
That is it applies to your 

86
00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:29,200
realm? 
Now, you've got a, you've got to

87
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,500
work really hard. 
Hard on it. 

88
00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:32,900
I was one of those people who 
needed to spend hours and hours 

89
00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:35,200
at the range and play golf on 
top of it. 

90
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,300
Play a lot of golf in order to 
be even reasonably. 

91
00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:40,800
Good obviously not good enough 
to even make money at it. 

92
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,200
But, you know, you got to 
realize in it's a business and 

93
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,500
you've got to work at it and 
you've got to be consistent 

94
00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:47,300
about it. 
So that's probably one of the 

95
00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:50,000
biggest lessons I took into 
entrepreneurship. 

96
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,600
But, you know, the way that I 
worked through getting better at

97
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,300
golf, I used to use a lot of 
training AIDS and I took a lot 

98
00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:01,900
of lessons and I picked the 
Reins of a lot of people and pay

99
00:05:01,900 --> 00:05:04,400
really, close attention to how 
other people were doing it, and 

100
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,000
doing it. 
Well, those all of those lessons

101
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,800
translated over into Accounting 
in the way that we operate, you 

102
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,800
know, we're having on automation
which puts guard rails around 

103
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,200
quality and that was born out of
the way, I practiced, right? 

104
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,700
So there's there's a lot of 
trans. 

105
00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:20,700
There's a lot of things that 
that translate over. 

106
00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:24,500
So one of the things I find 
interesting as you look at your 

107
00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:29,300
practice today is you've had a 
unique focus on vertical that 

108
00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:31,300
relates. 
It's a lot to our audience here 

109
00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:35,000
which working with marketing and
through extension design 

110
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600
agencies. 
What led you to providing 

111
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,200
virtual accounting and financial
services for these groups. 

112
00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:43,900
So I did outsourced controller 
work for a, another firm that 

113
00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,300
was in New York. 
When I was basically just a 

114
00:05:46,308 --> 00:05:49,000
freelancer, I was working in my 
9 to 5 and I was doing 

115
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,600
freelancing, type of County work
on the side and one of the 

116
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,400
clients that I worked on was an 
agency and then when I went out 

117
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,800
on my own when I decided to take
the freelance business that I 

118
00:05:59,900 --> 00:06:04,300
Add and turned into my true 925 
that person that owned that 

119
00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:07,600
haven't said, hey look, the CFO 
is for this business is leaving,

120
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:08,900
would you be interested in 
filling their own stuff? 

121
00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:09,400
Yeah. 
Sure. 

122
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,300
It was like you know new the 
feed, the kids at that point 

123
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:13,800
right. 
So my first agency client, I'd 

124
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,500
work with them for a couple of 
years but not in a CF G type 

125
00:06:16,500 --> 00:06:18,000
role but so it was a little bit 
new to me. 

126
00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:23,700
And then one of my clients in my
virtual, cipo practice was an 

127
00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:29,400
agency and then a second, or my 
third client was an agency and 

128
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,900
it You know, when you start your
business, out you here for a 

129
00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,600
whole bunch of people, like you 
really need to have a niche, it 

130
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,500
has all these benefits. 
And so you kind of have that 

131
00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:39,400
idea in the back of your head 
but unless you know exactly what

132
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,900
you want it to be kind of search
for it. 

133
00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,100
Well, in this particular case 
just kind of fell out of the sky

134
00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:45,300
smack me in the forehead and 
that was it. 

135
00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:48,800
So I generally just like working
with creatives or a lot of fun. 

136
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,100
They appreciate what we do and 
how we do it. 

137
00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:56,100
A creative facet to accounting. 
Not because we do Creative 

138
00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:58,400
Accounting but because we are 
creative accountants and the way

139
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,600
that we deliver our work and the
way that we do things. 

140
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,200
So I think it just translates. 
Well, you know, it's been a lot 

141
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,200
of fun so far really, really 
interesting to have it grow on 

142
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,300
top of it and you talked about 
working with creatives. 

143
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,900
What are the things that you see
that separates your creative 

144
00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:14,600
clients? 
From those who aren't in a 

145
00:07:14,608 --> 00:07:16,300
creative space? 
Are there any things that stand 

146
00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:19,900
out their approach to working 
with you or the nature of the 

147
00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:21,600
business? 
I know there's some commonality 

148
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,700
that you have in the accounting 
space, but there any things with

149
00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:30,600
these agencies that you find 
unique to the space, I don't 

150
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,800
know that I would say unique but
there are certainly some common 

151
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,800
issues that we see for sure. 
You know, one of them is just 

152
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,700
understanding the tax system and
how that works and when and how 

153
00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:42,700
and why they're going to pay tax
on the money that they earn. 

154
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,200
Like a lot of agency owners that
we work with. 

155
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,000
They got their kind of in a 
roundabout way and honestly kind

156
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,700
of the way that I got to where I
am right. 

157
00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:55,500
But the difference between me 
and them is that I was trained 

158
00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:58,400
in accounting and I obsess over 
accounting. 

159
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,900
So like these things are front 
of mine for me like, hey, you 

160
00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,400
need to pay quarterly. 
Estimated taxes and those sorts 

161
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,800
of things, whereas, for folks 
who do creative work, maybe they

162
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,700
didn't necessarily come at it, 
any sort of financial background

163
00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:12,300
or Financial Training or 
anything like that. 

164
00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:15,400
So just bridging that gap of. 
This is the things you're 

165
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,300
supposed to work. 
This is why this this is why 

166
00:08:18,300 --> 00:08:21,600
accounting is important because 
it helps you to make rational 

167
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,400
data-driven decisions in your 
business, to move your business 

168
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,700
forward and just explaining the 
mechanics of all that and how it

169
00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:29,600
works. 
And all of the things that need 

170
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,799
to happen in order to allow even
something as simple as to file a

171
00:08:32,808 --> 00:08:35,000
tax return. 
You know, you've got to have 

172
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,900
good clean accounting records 
and you got to keep track of 

173
00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:38,299
things. 
You have to have a separate 

174
00:08:38,299 --> 00:08:40,900
business and personal bank 
accounts like stuff like that is

175
00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:43,799
really, you know, those are the 
common things that we say, you 

176
00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:47,600
know, to extend that question. 
What's the one question you wish

177
00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:50,900
marketing agencies would ask you
about? 

178
00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:53,700
What's the one thing that you 
wish they would talk about or 

179
00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:55,700
ask you about or new front and 
center? 

180
00:08:57,500 --> 00:08:59,200
But you don't see them asking 
about. 

181
00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,400
The one thing that I wish that 
they would do is take more 

182
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,400
advantage of, okay. 
And a couple of different ways 

183
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,300
so meeting consistently and 
talking about your financials. 

184
00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:12,800
That's the biggest one, the 
more, the more frequently we 

185
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,700
meet with agencies, the more 
helpful we can be, it just makes

186
00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:17,800
rational sense, right? 
We understand what's going on in

187
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,200
your business? 
We see what's going on 

188
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:20,900
day-to-day. 
We understand how you operate, 

189
00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:24,600
we understand your personality, 
but a lot of those folks, I 

190
00:09:24,608 --> 00:09:28,100
mean, everybody's been slammed 
since the pandemic for sure. 

191
00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:29,300
So, there's a little bit of 
that. 

192
00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:32,000
There's a little bit of, you 
know, financials or kind of the 

193
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,000
boogeyman. 
So it's kind of like going to 

194
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,100
the dentist sometimes. 
So, one of the challenges, 

195
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,900
Challenges. 
We have is trying to make it 

196
00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,600
more approachable and make it 
easier. 

197
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,700
Or it's not like going to the 
dentist or just having a 

198
00:09:41,708 --> 00:09:43,500
conversation with somebody who's
trying to be helpful. 

199
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,800
Right? 
So there's a little bit of that 

200
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,000
for sure. 
And then on top of that I think 

201
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,200
it's important for folks who run
businesses any business, really 

202
00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:57,600
to have people in the room who 
are willing to listen. 

203
00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:01,800
So what I mean by that is, we're
not when we're talking with an 

204
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,200
agency owner. 
We're not just the person who's 

205
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,100
they're presenting the financial
information. 

206
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,300
Where we are the show. 
But then also having 

207
00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:12,000
opportunities to sit there with 
your leadership team and listen,

208
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,500
so we can get the full context 
and understand where you're 

209
00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:16,700
really coming from, because 
that's how we're going to learn,

210
00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:19,600
how to drive your business 
forward, really interesting and 

211
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,800
thinking about this and thinking
about some of the parallels. 

212
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,800
If your own entrepreneurial 
start, you mentioned that you 

213
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,800
were doing this is kind of the 
freelance side gig but then 

214
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,100
involved into the main that path
is really similar to a lot of 

215
00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:35,600
design leaders and coming in and
there they are having clients or

216
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,300
work that the They're doing 
outside of the nine to five and 

217
00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:42,400
then they find themselves 
transitioning where the quality 

218
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,800
the quantity of the work evolves
and they find themselves where 

219
00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:49,100
they're now running their own 
shop. 

220
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:52,800
What advice would you have for 
if we have created for listening

221
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,000
to our call today and they're in
this space because I think as 

222
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,300
you mentioned it, you go 
quickly. 

223
00:10:57,300 --> 00:10:59,300
You go from having a side 
project to the next thing. 

224
00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,700
You know you're set up a full 
Enterprise right? 

225
00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:05,600
One thing that you should know 
if you are operating in that 

226
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,700
way. 
Is that it's a really good low 

227
00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:10,900
risk. 
Way to see if it's something 

228
00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:13,400
that you like and want to do 
full time. 

229
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,800
So you should know that that's a
really good path and its really 

230
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,700
good option freelancing to 
full-time as a is a great thing 

231
00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:19,700
to do. 
So that's one. 

232
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,600
Number two is rip the Band-Aid 
off. 

233
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,900
Really at some point, you're 
going to get to a point where 

234
00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:27,400
you just need to rip the 
Band-Aid off. 

235
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,600
You need to quit the nine to 
five. 

236
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,700
You need to go out on your own 
and just need to do it, and it's

237
00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:32,700
going to be hard, and it's going
to be uncomfortable, and it's 

238
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:35,200
going to be different, but you 
just have to do it. 

239
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,700
So that's the Second thing. 
And then the third thing is, to 

240
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:41,800
have a coach or coach has super 
invaluable for sure. 

241
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:47,800
Yeah, I had a coach, let's say I
was I don't know six or seven 

242
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,400
years into my business doing the
part-time stuff, and then I 

243
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,500
hired a coach and I which for 
six months before I went full 

244
00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,700
time and we went through at 
least two iterations of what my 

245
00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:01,300
business was going to become 
when I went full time before. 

246
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:04,700
We finally landed on this and 
just having those a sounding 

247
00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:07,100
board, we've been working 
together for I don't know, four 

248
00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:09,500
and a half years at this point, 
just having that rational voice 

249
00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:12,200
who's a sounding board, and 
who's worked with other business

250
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,600
owners before it's super 
invaluable. 

251
00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:17,600
Now, where you're going to need 
expertise is in growing a 

252
00:12:17,608 --> 00:12:20,900
business and all of the various 
things that you need to do in 

253
00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:23,900
order to maintain that business 
and do it the right way. 

254
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:26,500
So, that's one you need to have 
a good Financial mind. 

255
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:28,700
If you don't have that expertise
and then you need to have a good

256
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:30,400
legal mind if you don't have 
that expertise. 

257
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,800
But you probably would guarantee
the new business owner has the 

258
00:12:33,808 --> 00:12:36,000
legal expertise, otherwise they 
would be a lawyer. 

259
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,700
Our right? 
So having a good accountant, 

260
00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:42,100
having a good financial advisor,
having a good attorney there's 

261
00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,300
and having a good coach, good 
business coach those are all 

262
00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:45,500
people that you want to have in 
your corner. 

263
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,900
What's really interesting? 
As well as you do, a lot of 

264
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:53,000
speaking on industry Trends and 
and how to navigate it. 

265
00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,800
One question popped to mind, I 
think would be really 

266
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,500
interesting for us from your 
perspective. 

267
00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:02,300
Was this question of how to make
your data work for marketing 

268
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:05,900
agency, to increase your 
profitability and scalability we

269
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:08,500
were talking Talking earlier, 
that growth is a top mindset for

270
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,700
all of us right now. 
Like how do we grow and how to 

271
00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:15,600
remarriage, but talk to me a bit
about how agency owners can help

272
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,800
to make the data work for them 
to increase those measures of 

273
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,100
success. 
Both profitability and growth 

274
00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:24,300
and scalability. 
Yeah I think sometimes there's 

275
00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:28,400
term sound a little bit scary. 
I think the more approachable 

276
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,800
way to kind of frame that would 
be. 

277
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,200
What are the questions that you 
want to ask about your business?

278
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,400
And what are the answers that 
you need to get back? 

279
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,700
So what are the questions that 
we need to ask in order to move 

280
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,900
our business forward the way to 
start there. 

281
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,700
With a data-driven approach is 
how you design your systems. 

282
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600
Okay. 
So in my line of work, we're 

283
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,700
focused on financial systems. 
So Financial systems is going to

284
00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,800
include first and foremost your 
general ledger and general 

285
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,500
Ledger's basically a fancy name 
for your accounting system, 

286
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,800
which is you can probably think 
of that as like a QuickBooks, or

287
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,300
a zero or freshbooks, or a wave 
or something or Zoho, or 

288
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:08,900
something like that. 
That's going to be your general 

289
00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:09,900
ledger. 
It's going to be the Hub and 

290
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:11,500
spoke of the whole thing 
Financial. 

291
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,600
You're also going to have an 
invoicing platform which may or 

292
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,400
may not be the same thing, so 
maybe even Voice from somewhere 

293
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,800
else, like a stripe or some sort
of other payment platform. 

294
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,000
Maybe you invoice, straight out 
of QuickBooks. 

295
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,600
The just depends, right? 
So put your invoicing platform. 

296
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,500
Your bill payment platform if 
you have one, if you have some 

297
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:31,700
sort of a size and you have a 
whole bunch of invoices that are

298
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:33,700
coming through, the you have to 
pay, probably got some sort of a

299
00:14:33,708 --> 00:14:37,700
bill payment platform, your bank
super critical because you want 

300
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:41,700
your bank to play nice with all 
of these different applications.

301
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:43,200
You want, you want the data to 
sink. 

302
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,600
So you need all of these things 
to talk to each other and then 

303
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,400
Once all of these things, talk 
to each other. 

304
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,200
Once there's a common data 
language that's happening and 

305
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,700
I'll talk about that here in a 
second. 

306
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,600
Then you can start to layer on 
things like data, visualization,

307
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,400
analytics, and start to crunch 
some numbers. 

308
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,700
Here's a really good example. 
So let's say time-tracking 

309
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:02,500
software. 
Here's a great example, I see 

310
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:04,600
this fairly frequently across 
our clients. 

311
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800
So let's just say, you track 
time, either for internal 

312
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,900
management purposes or billing, 
please don't build by the you, 

313
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,600
but let's just say that you do. 
So you track your time and then 

314
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,300
you invoice you. 
So, let's say you just track 

315
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:18,700
your time and harvest. 
As a good example and then let's

316
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:20,700
just say you invoice out of 
QuickBooks. 

317
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,100
Well, the time that you track 
and harvest the clients that you

318
00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:28,800
put time to those client names, 
don't necessarily sink over to 

319
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,400
QuickBooks. 
There's no bi-directional sync 

320
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:32,200
there. 
So you need to make sure that 

321
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,800
the names in QuickBooks are the 
same as the names and harvest, 

322
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,900
and then you can start to run 
analytics on where your time is 

323
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:38,700
going, and where, and how much 
revenue you're driving. 

324
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,200
And things like that. 
Phil rating that best example, 

325
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,300
we were just taking revenue and 
dividing it by the number of 

326
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:45,500
hours that you spent on that 
client or that project or 

327
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:48,200
whatever it is. 
But if those two things don't 

328
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,800
talk to each other, if there's 
naming conventions, are all 

329
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,600
different between customers 
between projects and things like

330
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,000
that. 
We see this all the time, then 

331
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,100
it's gonna be really hard to do 
that math and those calculations

332
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,400
in an automated way you can 
still do them but it's going to 

333
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,700
be manual. 
So for you to be able to get to 

334
00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:05,200
the answers that you want to get
to in your business is going to 

335
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,500
take you a lot of time energy 
and effort and you're going to 

336
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,100
be less likely to do it. 
So if you want all those 

337
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,600
analytics to be automated so you
have access to them on an 

338
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,600
ongoing basis so you can make 
those informed decisions then 

339
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:20,400
You have to do it in a way where
your financial ecosystem and to 

340
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,100
some extent, even your 
operational ecosystem all sinks 

341
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:25,600
together and I'll plays nicely 
together, a lot of times, we'll 

342
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,300
see clients who just go and 
they'll go by any old app, that 

343
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,500
seems cool. 
But like, okay, that's great. 

344
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,800
You got a new CRM, but it 
doesn't talk to QuickBooks. 

345
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,800
Now, what are we going to do, 
you know, that sort of thing? 

346
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:39,800
So, just being really 
intentional and being really 

347
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,500
careful and having again, having
somebody that you can lean on to

348
00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:45,600
walk you through, how you get to
the information that you want to

349
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,500
get to, you know? 
Isis question. 

350
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,200
Just for those who are starting 
businesses, what are the 

351
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,500
pitfalls that you see the top 
three pitfalls that you see with

352
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:56,900
with agencies that I've taught 
to designers and design Business

353
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,700
Leaders? 
Whenever we mention the 

354
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:02,300
conversation of Finance everyone
tenses up right? 

355
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,300
And it's the necessary part of 
the business Ryan and you talk 

356
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:09,400
about it, like having frequent 
conversations is really key. 

357
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,900
What are things that you see 
that are the top pitfalls, I 

358
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:15,900
love for our audience to see if 
it holds a mirror up to their 

359
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:18,500
practices, right? 
Now, hmm, how long is it going? 

360
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,800
As long as you've got knowledge.
Go. 

361
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,300
Yes, but now I mean that's the 
stuff that's really helpful. 

362
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:28,300
Like sometimes it's great to 
hear like don't do X and you can

363
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:30,300
look in the mirror and go. 
Oh my goodness, we've been doing

364
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:33,100
next. 
Yeah, here's the number one 

365
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:41,100
thing that we see is commingling
using a personal type checking, 

366
00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:44,300
or savings or whatever Bank type
account for your business. 

367
00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:46,600
Don't do this. 
Do not do the old. 

368
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:50,300
No, you're not know the 
commingle commingling is bad 

369
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:52,400
enough, commingling has all 
sorts of problems. 

370
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,900
Like if you've got an LLC in 
your commingling and this is not

371
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,000
legal advice by any stretch of 
the imagination, that's why you 

372
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,000
have, it should have a good 
lawyer. 

373
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:00,800
But potentially your piercing 
the corporate veil you make your

374
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,300
tax return. 
Really, really difficult to 

375
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,000
prepare because we've got to 
untangle all of these things, 

376
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,100
right? 
We got to split it between 

377
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:11,000
business and personal. 
At some point, you can't have 

378
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,800
good information to run your 
business, which is all that data

379
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,400
and analytics stuff we just 
talked about There's a ton of 

380
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,700
pitfalls with that. 
Now if you're using personal 

381
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,500
type accounts for your business 
now it's hard for your business 

382
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,600
to build credit. 
So when you go out to go get a 

383
00:18:25,608 --> 00:18:28,700
loan or line of credit, like now
it's on you personally for sure.

384
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,500
So that makes that difficult. 
So basically keep the business 

385
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:36,800
and the personal separate, the 
business should have business 

386
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,600
type accounts that are solely 
business-type accounts. 

387
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,200
That's the number one thing. 
The number two thing, I don't 

388
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,600
know, probably just not paying 
close enough attention on a 

389
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:48,800
Basis to financial information. 
And that comes with a whole 

390
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,400
bunch of pitfalls to like, where
are we spending our money? 

391
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,600
How do we control expenses 
pricing is that big one. 

392
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,400
How do we even price this work? 
You can go and sell work all day

393
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,200
long, but if you're not selling 
it for a price, that's high 

394
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,700
enough, then you're going to 
lose money and you're not going 

395
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,500
to understand why that's that's 
a good one, not paying attention

396
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:07,900
to cash flow. 
That's another one talk a bit 

397
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:10,900
about pricing and that's one of 
the areas where, you know, 

398
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:14,500
you're setting pricing for the 
first time and you may think 

399
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,000
that you're charging enough, but
if you don't have a Active of 

400
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,100
the rest of the marketplace, you
can completely be underpricing 

401
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,300
your work. 
And I know many times creative 

402
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:27,000
leaders are hesitant about 
charging their real market value

403
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,700
for their work. 
But what are some quick thoughts

404
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,900
that you've seen and ways in 
which you can get past that veil

405
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:38,500
of not charging enough? 
So, first place to start is 

406
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,100
dulled bill by the hour into 
that is the bane of, everybody's

407
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,400
existence for two reasons. 
Number one, it doesn't reward 

408
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,900
you for being really good. 
Your job and are being more 

409
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:49,700
efficient. 
And then number two, it 

410
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:54,800
automatically puts you at odds 
with your client because the 

411
00:19:54,808 --> 00:19:57,400
benefit for your client is to do
your work faster. 

412
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,800
The benefit for you is to take 
longer, okay? 

413
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:02,700
So it puts you at odds with your
client unnecessarily. 

414
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,700
So in my opinion, the other 
pieces to is in order to build 

415
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:07,700
by the hour, you got to track 
time and there's literally 

416
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:09,100
nobody that's going to track in 
time. 

417
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:11,600
So, value based billing is the 
way to go. 

418
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,100
If you want to understand value 
based billing and you want to 

419
00:20:14,108 --> 00:20:16,500
get into my nerdy world of 
accounting go. 

420
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,000
So redrawn Baker's book, 
implementing value-based pricing

421
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000
is the Bible of value-based 
pricing and I have a tendency to

422
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,500
send that the clients as well. 
So value-based pricing basically

423
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,300
says that you are going to bill 
your clients based on the value 

424
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:33,000
that you drive for them. 
A good place to start is to ask 

425
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,000
your clients questions. 
What is important to you? 

426
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,800
What is the result that you're 
looking to get? 

427
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,300
If you're asking enough 
questions in your building, up 

428
00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,800
the value to them of what you 
were going to deliver, then you 

429
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,600
can charge higher prices and 
you're going to get less 

430
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,800
pushback than you are. 
Sighs. 

431
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,200
What if you just say? 
Well yeah I can do that but it's

432
00:20:49,208 --> 00:20:51,700
going to be whatever twenty 
thousand dollars or fifty 

433
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,200
thousand dollars or whatever so 
implementing value-based pricing

434
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,500
but also having those 
conversations with the clients 

435
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,500
to understand what it is that's 
going to drive value for them. 

436
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:03,000
The other thing to think about, 
kind of that's not in the 

437
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,800
pricing realm but it's sort of 
tangentially related is being on

438
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,400
some sort of a 
subscription-based model or a 

439
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,200
retainer model, which is less 
good, but definitely better than

440
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,300
one. 
Type one time project type stuff

441
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:16,100
so that's kind of my Soliloquy 
on. 

442
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,800
Revenue and pricing. 
And and those things much 

443
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,600
appreciated in great info and 
appreciate the reference for the

444
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,000
book for audience as well. 
This is a very good and 

445
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,900
informative list of what not to 
do. 

446
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,900
Anything else, anything else you
need to add to that? 

447
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,900
I may have had to others. 
I lost one though. 

448
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:40,100
So I yeah, the third one is 
understanding how when, and why,

449
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:44,300
and where you're going to pay 
income taxes and other taxes. 

450
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:48,000
We see this frankly. 
Maybe a client comes to us. 

451
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,400
They've got an S corp setup and 
it's because of the previous 

452
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,300
accountant or bookkeeper told 
him that you need to get an S 

453
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:56,500
corp like cool, that's great. 
But understanding how the S Corp

454
00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:00,500
is going to pay tax. 
Which for the most part it's not

455
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,400
going to pay income tax. 
It's going to pass through to 

456
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:02,800
you. 
Right. 

457
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,400
There are a couple of states 
where things get weird, but just

458
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,400
understanding how those funds 
flow and then who and where 

459
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,600
you're going to pay estimated 
taxes, what the timing of that 

460
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,300
is going to be how those amounts
are derived managing basis, you 

461
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:18,500
know, all things like that. 
Just Understanding the tax 

462
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:22,400
implications of the entity. 
You have, and how your operation

463
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,700
of that entity is going to 
impact all those factors really 

464
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:27,600
good. 
This is the information as we 

465
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,500
said. 
You know if you're a design 

466
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,900
professional creative leader 
you've spent your career 

467
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:36,400
focusing on honing, your 
creative facility this skills 

468
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,800
around building it. 
But these are the spaces that 

469
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:43,500
help to make break or lessen the
pain of running these 

470
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,000
Enterprises having this correct.
And having a champion For 

471
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,100
someone who has the knowledge as
you mentioned in your corner, as

472
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:52,500
you build a business out. 
If you were starting a business 

473
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:57,000
today as as a creative business,
who would be your starting five?

474
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,600
What would be the starting five 
pieces that you would need in 

475
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,200
terms of talent and advice in 
terms of talent and advice? 

476
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,600
Holy cow, is that you've got to 
include yourself. 

477
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,900
It's white so you got it. 
You got to include yourself in 

478
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:11,500
financial Acumen is 1. 
So you got four other slots fair

479
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,000
fair. 
Yeah, so I would have I don't 

480
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,200
have a good accountant in a good
attorney for sure. 

481
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,400
A good business coach, I would 
probably save a business coach 

482
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,200
that is not involved in or 
hasn't historically been 

483
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,700
involved with creatives. 
Somebody will with just a very 

484
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:37,600
broad perspective so that's 3. 4
would be 4 is a little bit 

485
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,400
difficult. 
I would waver between somebody 

486
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,400
like let's go yeah, I'll talk 
about this. 

487
00:23:42,408 --> 00:23:44,900
Go with this, for be a banker. 
Somebody you have a Banking 

488
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:48,400
relationship with which does not
mean that you can't use a 

489
00:23:48,408 --> 00:23:52,800
technology enabled Bank, just 
means that what we learned 

490
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,700
through the pandemic is when 
things go really, really bad 

491
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:58,300
that it's good to have a 
relationship with a banker. 

492
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,500
And that's, that's what we're 
seeing now. 

493
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:02,600
And folks are trying to get like
lines of credit and things like 

494
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,900
that. 
You should at least have some 

495
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:05,200
sort of relationship of the 
banker. 

496
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,600
And then number five, will come 
back to that one. 

497
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,300
Because I think that's at the 
start of the pandemic. 

498
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:14,500
One of the most requested 
resources we put together was 

499
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:17,900
Talk to your banker and we just 
sit in an important space. 

500
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:19,900
So, you know, we can come back 
to that, but I'd love to hear a 

501
00:24:19,908 --> 00:24:21,900
number five. 
Who's your yep? 

502
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,700
Number five, would be a friend 
who's done it friend or an 

503
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:27,900
acquaintance or somebody in the 
industry who's done it, which is

504
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:30,700
part of it, like somebody who's 
done, what you're trying to do 

505
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,900
with that, you can just like 
pick their brain or a community.

506
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,100
That would that would work to 
me, somebody, where you got 

507
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:41,000
industry specific resources, 
where people, you know, they 

508
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,200
understand where you're coming 
from exactly. 

509
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,500
But having a busy than that, 
Works hand in hand with the 

510
00:24:45,508 --> 00:24:47,600
business coach to having a 
business coach to understand 

511
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,400
business and how things should 
operate and having a broad 

512
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,100
perspective. 
But then also having that group 

513
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:54,600
or that one person who's done 
exactly what you're trying to do

514
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,000
and being able to balance the 
information that you're getting 

515
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000
from those two places that I 
think that that's invaluable, 

516
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:04,100
for sure that's incredible. 
Starting five Fina for us to 

517
00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:06,800
think about how we run our 
organization. 

518
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,300
We talked a little bit about 
what some of the other side of 

519
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:13,600
kind of our pandemic moment in 
space as you prep your own 

520
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,600
business and you start To think 
about what's next for your 

521
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,600
clients? 
What are some of the things that

522
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,300
you're looking out for over the 
next 18? 

523
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:22,900
24 months? 
What are you thinking about 

524
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:26,700
these days? 
Holy cow, we're paying very 

525
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:31,800
close attention to the economy. 
And we're paying, we're asking 

526
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,800
our clients all the time. 
What are you seeing and feeling?

527
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,500
And in particular, what is it 
that your clients are telling 

528
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:43,300
you because at all this stuff 
that flows Downstream we really 

529
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:45,400
got ya. 
Yep. 

530
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,400
So, we're looking at economic 
data, where and then we're 

531
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,000
having these conversations with 
our clients. 

532
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,200
What are you seeing? 
What are you feeling? 

533
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:54,400
And the other thing that we're 
doing is Raising capital or 

534
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,500
access to Capital as it were, if
things, get bad and we get into 

535
00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:00,200
a crunch, we don't want to win. 
Want to lay people off or Miss, 

536
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,300
bill payments or anything like 
that. 

537
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,500
We want to have some sort of a 
stopgap, that's another one and 

538
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:08,000
then thinking about different 
and or creative revenue streams.

539
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:13,500
So what are the places where we 
can add value, or create value 

540
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,200
that we haven't necessarily 
explored, previously that are 

541
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,800
going to be perhaps a little bit
more recession resistant, that 

542
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,000
sort of thing. 
Those are probably the big what 

543
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,300
is it four or five that I just 
listed as a really good basis 

544
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:29,900
for us to kind of think about 
you know what's Exhale for a lot

545
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,600
of organizations. 
Just kind of taking the breath 

546
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,400
to make it through the last 24 
months. 

547
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,800
It's been, it's been the 
marathon. 

548
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,700
But looking forward is something
we don't want to miss out on the

549
00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:42,100
opportunities as the as the 
world changes. 

550
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,900
We're seeing a lot of creatives 
move from in-house positions to 

551
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:50,100
entrepreneurial and actually the
other flow as well. 

552
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,400
During this time period. 
One of the things that the 

553
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,500
pandemic it showed us as we've 
all kind of questioned, what it 

554
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:59,800
is we do and how do we do it? 
Are you seeing Those type of 

555
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,800
movements as well. 
It's you look at agencies, do 

556
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,000
you see more books coming out or
going in these days at the 

557
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,400
moment? 
It's going out. 

558
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,600
What we're seeing about a year 
ago or so. 

559
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:16,200
We're folks who are going out 
and and freelancing and opening 

560
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,100
up their own shops. 
And so, the conversations that 

561
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:22,700
we were having with agency 
clients at that point where, you

562
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,100
know, around building a network 
of folks that you can Outsource 

563
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,700
work to number one, but then 
also what you should be thinking

564
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:32,100
about when you have this 
Migration of folks who are going

565
00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:36,000
into freelance type work, one of
the concerns for us would be 

566
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,500
that that would be deflationary.
In other words, your agency now 

567
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:42,200
is competing against somebody 
who's out on their own. 

568
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:46,900
Who's going with this kind of 
eat what you kill type mode. 

569
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:50,300
They're likely to drive prices 
lower because they're likely to 

570
00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:52,500
charge Less in order to get work
to pay the mortgage. 

571
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:55,500
That's that sort of thing. 
So you should be thinking that 

572
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,100
maybe maybe that would be 
deflationary, we haven't quite 

573
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,000
seen that. 
That but it's something to think

574
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,900
about. 
I think, maybe you had that 

575
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,000
scenario played out a little bit
longer than it, did we'd be 

576
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,600
seeing more of that where we are
economically right now, it's a 

577
00:28:08,608 --> 00:28:10,900
little bit, a little bit of a 
different story. 

578
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:14,000
What we're hearing from clients 
is that because corporate 

579
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,100
marketing budgets are kind of 
the first to get cut when things

580
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,400
slow down. 
We've got folks who are coming 

581
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,300
out of corporate and who are 
sending resumes to agencies and,

582
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,800
you know, looking for work. 
So it'll be interesting to see 

583
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,800
how that Dynamic plays out. 
But it you know like you alluded

584
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,100
to it's going to be it's not 
going to be next month is going 

585
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:35,100
to be over the next 18, 24 
months or so. 

586
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:39,100
So to that end, when you look 
over the horizon, what do you 

587
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:40,800
get most excited about these 
days? 

588
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:44,000
What are you most excited about?
In terms of possibilities are 

589
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,000
opportunities. 
I think that the world is just 

590
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,200
changing so rapidly. 
That the number of opportunities

591
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,800
that are out there, are there 
more numerous and they come at 

592
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,100
you little bit faster and then 
There are also larger. 

593
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:02,200
Yeah. 
So there's a lot more to take 

594
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200
advantage of than there was 
before let's see. 

595
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Next week it'll be four years 
since I've been out on my own. 

596
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,500
When I went out on my own it was
a very tax every practice we did

597
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:14,600
very little virtual CFO work now
we're 75% virtual CFO work and 

598
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,100
25% tax and I was getting calls 
from people like on the phone 

599
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:22,500
and they would say hey I want to
do my tax return. 

600
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,300
I'm going to bring you my stuff 
like my shoebox full of paper 

601
00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:27,800
and stuff and I say no you know 
I work for my living room 

602
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,600
basically. 
And You know, I don't do that, 

603
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:32,400
you know, but I have an online 
portal for you to upload 

604
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,000
documents. 
And they've got now, it's like, 

605
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:37,400
if you know, I got it. 
I need to, I need to be the 

606
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,100
sitting there while you do my 
return face-to-face, I gotta 

607
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:42,300
bring you my paper, right? 
And so we would lose clients 

608
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,400
that way, pandemic it. 
And that's not a thing anymore. 

609
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:49,900
And like, when I posted my first
job to hire my first person, 

610
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:51,600
like, I think, I think was on 
indeed. 

611
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,900
Like, I couldn't, I couldn't 
post with the location as like 

612
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,200
virtual. 
It wasn't a thing. 

613
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:01,400
And now I can post virtual jobs 
and get people from all over the

614
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,000
country and it's not that it's 
not that hard to do so that the 

615
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,600
talent pool and the client pool 
and the you know just the 

616
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,700
virtual environment is made 
everything much bigger. 

617
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,100
So there's much more opportunity
plus the world is changing. 

618
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600
It's never going to change 
slower than it is today. 

619
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,700
It's always going to be faster. 
So you know, just the amount of 

620
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,000
opportunity in the size of it is
just enormous. 

621
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:22,700
That's what gets any. 
That's an incredible statement 

622
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:24,500
right there. 
We talked about being excited to

623
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:27,600
just realize that change is not 
going to get slow. 

624
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,400
Our it's only going to get 
faster. 

625
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,000
Hmm, for sure, for forever. 
It's just, it's not, it's not 

626
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,400
going back. 
You know what, we thinking of 

627
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,500
that? 
What's the one lesson added to 

628
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:42,000
that, that you've taken from the
last three years, one of the 

629
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,100
last lesson for the last two 
years, or three years, you have.

630
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:47,600
And I think about it for your 
time, being on your own, you've 

631
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,700
represented the majority of your
time as a standalone business 

632
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:54,900
has actually been during the 
pandemic. 

633
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,400
Yeah, but we think about it, you
know, it's Life outside of the 

634
00:30:58,408 --> 00:31:01,100
pandemic is, is the secondary 
for your business now. 

635
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:05,100
So what what lessons have been 
taken from 75% of your business 

636
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,000
being in the panda? 
Yeah, that's a, that's a really 

637
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,600
great question and really made 
me think there for a second. 

638
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:18,300
So, I would say, our Mantra 
right now is just be helpful and

639
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:22,000
that was born out of the 
pandemic. 

640
00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:24,000
For sure. 
I remember when the world 

641
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,200
shutdown in March of 2020, And 
the conversation that we were 

642
00:31:30,208 --> 00:31:32,200
having internally, our team was 
three. 

643
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,200
At that point, the conversation 
that we were having was like, 

644
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,500
look, this PPP thing like nobody
knows what it is. 

645
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:41,100
Nobody knows how this is gonna 
work. 

646
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,900
The economy is shut down. 
It's literally never like you've

647
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:46,600
never shut down the entire world
economy before ever. 

648
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,200
Like this. 
Can't be a good thing. 

649
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,600
We don't know how bad this is 
going to be, but if we can just 

650
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,900
sit here and have conversations 
with our clients, every Well 

651
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:00,100
then that's what I did for two 
weeks straight all day. 

652
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
I talked to every single client 
and just kind of run through. 

653
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Like this is our play book. 
This is what we think you should

654
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,600
be doing. 
This is what we are seeing. 

655
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,000
This is what we're hearing from 
from other clients and from 

656
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,400
Banks and all are in from the 
aicpa, which is a large 

657
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,600
organization of CPAs and just 
have those conversations and 

658
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,200
just be helpful. 
And not worry about like, well, 

659
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,900
this client is in this tier and 
it doesn't allow us to have an 

660
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:26,700
extra meeting. 
We and we're gonna have to send 

661
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:27,600
them a bill and that sort of 
thing. 

662
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:33,100
You just trying to pick up every
last nickel for PPP applications

663
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:35,700
and for the time that we're 
spending and all this other 

664
00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:37,800
stuff, we're not worried about 
picking up every last nickel. 

665
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:40,100
If we're just sitting here and 
having real conversations and 

666
00:32:40,108 --> 00:32:43,300
just being helpful, then these 
people are going to be clients 

667
00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,300
for life. 
And we'll just work on a Karma 

668
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,700
system at this moment in time, 
and that's really what we 

669
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:51,000
needed. 
I just went through this number 

670
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,400
of my with my team earlier we 
grew two hundred sixty four 

671
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,800
percent in the last two years. 
So, you know, it's worked and 

672
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,100
just being helpful is really 
what it's all about. 

673
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:04,300
And everything else will just 
kind of flow from that. 

674
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,600
They've been a year on mute. 
So, funny that even in these 

675
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,700
days where we think we have all 
our technology working, 

676
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:11,700
sometimes your mute button, just
clicks on. 

677
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:14,200
That's right. 
That's the other thing that we 

678
00:33:14,208 --> 00:33:16,400
learned to learn from the 
pandemic is the politely tell 

679
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,800
people that they're of you have 
to because because sometimes, I 

680
00:33:19,808 --> 00:33:21,400
mute buttons have minds of their
own. 

681
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,600
We haven't even pressed anything
which is fun to have that 

682
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,900
moment, but I was saying it's 
that, you know, being helpful in

683
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:30,200
which that moment right there 
really was, right is an 

684
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,600
important strategic business 
practice, you know, as you said,

685
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,700
you talked about in terms of 
business Karma, but in being an 

686
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:42,200
active listener, to be a helpful
part. 

687
00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:44,900
Partner in growing your business
which is what, you know, we 

688
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:46,600
talked about from the very 
Beginnings, conversations what 

689
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,700
your client need it, and it's 
great to get that case. 

690
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:52,800
Story of how your business has 
grown because of that point of 

691
00:33:52,808 --> 00:33:56,600
being helpful. 
Well, this has been an 

692
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,700
incredibly revealing and fun 
conversation about accounting 

693
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,800
and design marketing and 
finance, all rolled in in 

694
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,100
together. 
I'd love to leave you with the 

695
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,000
last words, are there any 
things? 

696
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,100
I know you do a lot in 
encouraging. 

697
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,600
Young professionals to go in 
there. 

698
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,699
So would love to hear if there 
are any thoughts that you have 

699
00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:20,400
for young professionals, whether
they are on the finance side 

700
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,100
marketing or design that are 
looking to craft their career. 

701
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,000
In this post pandemic, 
landscape, any advice, you have 

702
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,400
the best advice I have for Young
Folks would just be just keep 

703
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,900
after it and continuously learn 
investing in yourself, is always

704
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,100
going to be a good investment, 
but just keep after it be 

705
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:41,500
consistent show up to work when 
you're supposed to show up to 

706
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:43,300
work. 
You do the work that you're 

707
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:46,400
supposed to be doing be helpful 
to your clients continuously 

708
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,100
learn continuously upscale 
yourself. 

709
00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:50,100
And if you can do that you're 
going to you're going to be 

710
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,400
totally successful. 
Well I think that's a wonderful 

711
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,800
way to end our conversation 
here. 

712
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,500
My friend, thank you for taking 
some time with us on design 

713
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:02,300
adjacent and having a 
conversation to look at the 

714
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:05,400
intersection of, as we said, 
finance and best business 

715
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,000
practices, combined, with 
marketing design, and agency 

716
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,300
work. 
It's just an important way to 

717
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:15,400
think about, Who are your top 
five that are your support 

718
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,700
mechanism? 
We encourage you to have Finance

719
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:19,900
to be a part of this 
conversation. 

720
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,700
So thank you, Chris again, 
entrepreneur CPA champion and 

721
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,900
really just all around a great 
business supporter. 

722
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,100
Thank you, Chris, for joining us
today. 

723
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,000
And thank you all for joining us
for this episode design, 

724
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,200
adjacent, will we look at the 
Nexus of design running business

725
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,600
both today and tomorrow? 
Thank you, show notes for this 

726
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,300
episode will be available on AIG
a.org. 

727
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,200
Please subscribe to our show on 
anchor. 

728
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Apple, podcasts Google play 
Spotify or wherever you get your

729
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,400
podcast. 
Aiga is designed adjacent 

730
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,600
podcasts and its contents. 
Are the copyright of aiga the 

731
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,600
professional association for 
design All Rights Reserved. 

732
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:09,100
Any redistribution or 
reproduction of part or all of 

733
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,100
the contents in any form is 
prohibited without a hitch. 

734
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,200
Geez, Express written 
permission. 

735
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,200
My name is Li Shan Wang until 
next time. 

736
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,200
Geez, Express written 
permission. 

737
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,200
My name is Li Shan Wang until 
next time.