1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 Hello and welcome to a new season of the AAGA Design 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,520 Podcast. My name is Li Shan Huang, Senior 3 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:09,840 Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,920 professional association for Design. 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,160 And I am Julia Donatello, I am the competitions and event 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,600 manager at AIGA. This season we are exploring the 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,040 theme of design and performance with all of the different 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,360 possible nuances of that term of performance. 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,560 And our very first guest for the season are Scott Dorley and 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,560 Carissa Carter from the Stanford D School. 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,960 They are also the co-authors of this new book assembling 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:38,960 tomorrow. So we're going to talk about who 13 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,440 they are, what they do as educators and as we'll dive into 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,320 some highlights from the book as well. 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,120 But over to you Julia, to kick things off. 16 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,240 So as we kick start this, I was wondering what was the 17 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,360 inspiration to write this book and how did the the first ideas 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,600 come up to you both? Well, I mean, I think the 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,320 backdrop for writing this book is how unsettling the world is 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,840 right now to all of us, Scott, and I feel it. 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,960 I'm sure you too can resonate with that in some way. 22 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,240 But in many ways, our climate is on the Fritz. 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,880 And in particular, technologies in the technologies that we 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:20,280 build with as designers are changing really quickly and in a 25 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,720 way that they are what we call mischievous and on their own, 26 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,240 right? So the tech that we are now 27 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,600 including our design materials like AI, like synthetic biology 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,240 or artificial evolution, we call it, right? 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,760 Like when you're building with algorithms and genetic code, 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,960 those things change and make decisions after you launch them 31 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:45,800 and change their logic after they're released into the wild. 32 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,800 And that's part of of the backdrop with which we, you 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,880 know, had the motivation to to craft this book because it was 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,000 super, it was super throwing us off kilter in our design work. 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,160 And we saw it in our students. And so even though we felt this 36 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,720 way, we also know how much agency each one of us has to 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,280 craft a really wonderful tomorrow. 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,400 And we knew from our experience in classrooms about building 39 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,600 activities to help students see this world in new ways and to to 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,560 create with responsibility and in humility like we wanted to. 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,600 We wanted to turn that into a book. 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,480 And that was a bit of the backdrop that led to us writing 43 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Assembling Tomorrow. Before we dive deeper into the 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,600 book, I'd love to hear, I think our audience members who are 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,560 maybe not as familiar with the Stanford D School would love to 46 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,080 hear a little bit about your institution and maybe a bit 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,440 about what you teach as well. Yeah, the D school is in the 48 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,960 School of Engineering. We're actually in the Institute 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,520 at Stanford, which means that we sit in one of the schools rather 50 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,320 than the inside a department and that allows us to work with 51 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:55,760 students from around the university. 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,240 So every year we work with more than 1000 Stanford students and 53 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,160 then we do a lot of work outside Stanford as well. 54 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:05,960 And we look at design in, in a, in a few different ways. 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,240 Our program started with product design, which in other programs 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,040 was called the industrial design. 57 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,880 And there's like a fundamental difference at that time. 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,080 This is like in the 60s at that time in that approach and the 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,600 approach what what they came up with was called comprehensive 60 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,440 design. So this is around the late 60s 61 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,720 or early 70s. That's a way of looking at 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,800 design where you're looking at all the layers of, of 63 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,160 interaction. Carissa uses an incredible 64 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,000 framework that, you know, design is not just about the products 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,600 we create, but it's the experiences that that creates 66 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,960 and the systems that that lives in and the implications and the 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,800 data that drives it. So we push students to really 68 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,040 look at, you know, the holistic space of design. 69 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,960 And now we also have two degree programs, one for undergrad and 70 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,200 one for grad students. Very cool. 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,640 So jumping now into topics of the book. 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,360 So I'm curious if you can elaborate on your perception of 73 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,920 the term runaway design and what do you think is our role as 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,120 designers to engage with this more responsibly? 75 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,240 Yeah, the term runaway design is the the backdrop for the for the 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,519 moment that we're in, right. And it's a bit of what I was 77 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:23,720 saying before about how our materials seem to be getting 78 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,120 away from us in a way. And, and one other, one other 79 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,640 layer to add to that is like the things that we make with, right? 80 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,680 Like if they are tangible things, like I've got a piece of 81 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,960 paper here and when you fold it like I, I get it. 82 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,080 I know that it's folded right? And we all have a sense that 83 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,800 like I could fold this into a paper airplane and it would fly 84 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,920 like I like, I understand what the paper affords me to do. 85 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,880 And like in other physical materials like wood, like metal, 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,760 etcetera. Like I might not be a master 87 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:04,240 crafts person, but I kind of can understand how, you know, you 88 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,080 might joint the wood together to make a structure that could 89 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,760 support a certain amount of weight. 90 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,200 And I can also see if that structure has failed or if it's 91 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,000 wobbling, etcetera, right? But in this runaway design world 92 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,120 where those algorithms, genetic code is set to like the stuff 93 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,440 that we're building with is now invisible and we don't have a 94 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,040 sense as makers as to what those materials really afford. 95 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,800 Like, that's what makes it a bit of a runaway design moment, 96 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:33,560 right? They're changing fast, they're 97 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,680 scaling fast. And we don't actually know when 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,240 they go wrong until we see how they've crashed or they've 99 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,440 tumbled or that structure has crumbled. 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,960 And that's an interesting point, like using the piece of paper, 101 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,120 right? Because it's like, OK, that's 102 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,040 like a finite thing we can hold in our hand. 103 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,960 But even the piece of paper, it's like, OK, well, where did 104 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,360 it come from in terms of like the trees and the supply chain? 105 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:56,200 But then if we apply it to something like AI, right? 106 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,560 It's like the there's it's running on some server 107 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,680 somewhere, we don't know. And then, you know, what kind of 108 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,240 energy is being used to power that plus like, you know, 109 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,480 whatever the social effects are of whatever AI application as 110 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,680 well. So it's like all of the stuff 111 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,160 that's like beneath the surface of the water if we're using like 112 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,320 an iceberg as a metaphor. Yeah, I mean, it's that you're, 113 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,520 you're exactly right, Lee, Sean, it's that interconnectedness of 114 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,760 design work, right. And then the minute that you 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,240 start to peel back those layers, you know, Scott was talking 116 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,240 about products, experiences, systems, and then the tech and 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,880 the data, the power that and the implications of all of it. 118 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,560 Like when you were talking about that, you know, if you if you 119 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,640 take this piece of paper, right, like this is a product, it like 120 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,640 allows me the experience of writing and folding and paper 121 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,960 airplane making, right, and even mailing letters, etcetera. 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,920 Like there's many systems that control its distribution and 123 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,120 production, like you were just saying, and there's the 124 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,480 technologies that go into creating it and making it this 125 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,160 bleached white color, right? And then there's the, the, the 126 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,320 data that even powers like what size it should be, right? 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:09,600 And like how it comes like in reams to us, right? 128 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,240 And like there's all these different implications for that. 129 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,520 And, you know, the sizing that we use in this country versus 130 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,200 other countries and who, you know, who can use this medium, 131 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,560 who might be excluded from it. And that's what's really part of 132 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,360 what makes it a runaway design moment is because like that 133 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,120 interconnection, once you start to like realize it's everywhere 134 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,280 and you realize that how are some of our technologies really, 135 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,320 really allow that to take off really quickly today in ways we 136 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:39,920 can't really control. Sorry, Scott, Go. 137 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,240 Ahead. No, I was just going to say to 138 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,560 build on that last point. The, the job sometimes of 139 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,040 technology is to sort of transcend our limits, right? 140 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,760 And you see every time a new technology comes out, it's like 141 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,320 it's going beyond what we were used to. 142 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,640 It's creating this new paradigm and we have to move into, I 143 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,080 think the job of design is then to choose new limits. 144 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,360 It's, you know, like designs all about constraints. 145 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,840 How are we making decisions about what we feel like this 146 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,600 should be used for and what's going to be desirable to put in 147 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,440 front of people and what, you know, what do we care about and 148 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,600 how should that be built into the way it gets disposed of, let 149 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,840 alone the way it gets created? And so design, I think it has a 150 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,840 really important role in adding constraints, meaningful 151 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,400 constraints back into these sort of breaking of past limits. 152 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,640 I wanted to circle back on some of the themes of the book in a 153 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,360 little bit, but I wanted to share about like the the 154 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,440 structure as well. So for folks who have not read 155 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,720 the book yet, it's a combination of nonfiction and fiction, 156 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,320 right? So there's like the the main 157 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,800 narrative of you will where you're looking at different 158 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,080 phenomena, different trends, making sense of it, you know, 159 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,720 citing other folks who are studying this stuff, looking at 160 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:55,880 it. But then you have these like 161 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,080 vignettes that are sprinkled throughout the book. 162 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,160 I felt like they were like postcards from different 163 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,360 features. My favorite one, which one of 164 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,520 the earliest ones in the book is the, the AI mother who had 165 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,520 passed away. And it's really about like, we 166 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,040 already see beginnings of stuff like this with chat bots and 167 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,160 people who have like tried to memorialize their their dead 168 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,680 relatives and friends through large language models and stuff 169 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:20,040 like that. But it really explored like 170 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,240 this, like relationship between two sisters. 171 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,080 Why did you choose to do this? Like fiction, non fiction 172 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,080 structure. At a baseline, right, all design 173 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,560 begins as fiction, so everything is imagined before it is 174 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:36,040 created. And so if we're writing a book 175 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,560 about assembling tomorrow, part of our job then is to imagine 176 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,840 some possible futures and try them on before we commit to 177 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,480 anyone. And that that's what each of 178 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,240 those those speculative fiction stories is about, is is testing 179 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,560 and see if we like how we look in those futures. 180 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,800 They're also like really fun ways to explore specific moments 181 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,080 in the future that you can't just get from talking about what 182 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,560 technology might do, you know, like from that posture, that 183 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,760 story that you're referring to, Lee Sean was one that Scott 184 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:09,640 wrote. I love it too. 185 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,720 It's called sibling rivalry. And yes, so these these siblings 186 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,480 are arguing over which version of their dead mother to bring 187 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,080 back. And I'll also say like, like we 188 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,680 wrote this book before that those services that currently 189 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:28,920 exist, that do that existed, like it felt far more futuristic 190 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,800 at the time. And like, that's the that's 191 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,440 runaway design, right? Like the fact that now you have 192 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,640 at least four or five choices for how to bring back a deceased 193 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,160 relative is, is pretty remarkable, right? 194 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,680 And you do need to ask yourself, like, what do we want? 195 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:48,440 Like, what would we want out of bringing some somebody like that 196 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,600 back? You know, that feels like really 197 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,520 big questions that we should be asking now Taps at our emotions. 198 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,400 It taps at relationships, it taps at a lot more beyond just 199 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,360 what the tech can do. Maybe one each another story 200 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,560 that you would want to give us a preview of. 201 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,440 Just building on what Chris was saying, and I know you, you 202 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,800 teach future looking classes to you, Lee Sean. 203 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,880 And it feels like if we don't think a few steps ahead, we're 204 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,000 actually sort of a little bit behind, particularly because, 205 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,560 you know, these things are coming to fruition so quickly. 206 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,240 We had three or four stories that, you know, we thought were 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,640 plausible, but when we started writing them in 2021, they 208 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,360 weren't happening. And by the time the book was 209 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,840 published, they literally were, you know, services you can pay 210 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,400 for. One of the stories in there is 211 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,040 about guy who's trying to reconnect with people in his 212 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,400 life, and so he has this sort of embedded AI that's helping him 213 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,320 have conversations with people. It's like encouraging him to 214 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,480 call people he calls like sort of an ex-girlfriend and it's 215 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,680 guiding him through the conversation. 216 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,760 It doesn't go well. But I had a student who 217 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,440 literally created a prototype of that product two years after I 218 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,800 had him as a student about at the same time as I wrote the 219 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,960 story with neither of us knowing that that was happening, you 220 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,640 know? And so it's just kind of amazing 221 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,120 how fast things are moving. Another one I'll just throw in 222 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,240 there that Carissa Rhodes is called Compassion School. 223 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,320 And there are a couple in the book that are really sort of 224 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,160 forward-looking to say, like, what do we value in the world? 225 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,680 And Compassion School looks like that looks at the idea that what 226 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,120 if we created leaders based on their capacity for compassion? 227 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,360 You know, what if compassion say was, you know, the criteria you 228 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,680 were really looking for in an elected leader and, or in 229 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,240 someone who, you know, might even be able to go through an 230 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,560 educational process, how would we dictate that? 231 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,920 Where would we find them? And there's something about 232 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,600 being able to not just come up with that idea would explore 233 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,480 like, what would be the mechanics of that and how would 234 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,560 that feel? And what things would that 235 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,120 create that are maybe like a little less desirable? 236 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,160 You know, what kind of problems would it cause? 237 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,160 And the storytelling actually just like allows you to play 238 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,960 with those details. What comes after, what comes 239 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,960 after, you know, and it's really, really rich activity, 240 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,120 let alone hopefully it also, you know, is something to ponder as 241 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,320 you read the book. Yeah, I assigned your book to my 242 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,480 class for the first time this semester. 243 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,760 We were talking about it before we started rolling, but I teach 244 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,120 a class on designing the future. It's an executive master's 245 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,400 program at Parsons, and the students are working 246 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,360 professionals. They're mostly in their mid 30s, 247 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,200 as is the average age. And so a lot of them are already 248 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,120 leaders. They're working on different 249 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,680 products, services, different kind of things. 250 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,680 And you know, often in these corporate environments where 251 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,400 they're working that it's all about like, OK, what is the next 252 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,640 product launch, right? The next version that they're 253 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,600 launching of whatever. And so I think grad school and 254 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,360 this class is a good way for them to reflect on both like a 255 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,480 longer time horizon, which your book does as well, right? 256 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,120 Thinking about through the lens of all design is future making, 257 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,160 but also like just a larger systems perspective of like, OK, 258 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,680 you're you are responsible for whatever it is you're putting in 259 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:09,840 the world. Like what are the ripple 260 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,760 effects? Can you maybe tell a story to 261 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,680 try to understand the potential systemic impacts of what you're 262 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,760 doing? And then, Yeah, well, so I got 263 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,600 my students to write their own future stories as well, you 264 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,040 know, because it's, it's also a way to like to deal with like 265 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,520 the again, that short term is a writer, like just the next 266 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680 version and then the next design Sprint. 267 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,760 That stuff that they have plenty of time for us of grad school is 268 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,600 like the perfect space to like think about that. 269 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,840 So they either do like a a personal future, like where do 270 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,600 they see themselves like a decade in the future? 271 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,520 Or they, they have their own independent study projects 272 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,280 essentially like their master's theses. 273 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,800 And so sometimes they also have the option to to do that, right. 274 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,000 It's like, OK, you've already launched your thesis as a thing 275 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,720 in the world. Like what does it look like when 276 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,960 you've reached scale? And so it's a way to integrate 277 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,600 that into the other things they're doing. 278 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,280 That's incredible. Did any interesting facets come 279 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,160 out and in any of those stories this year that are shareable? 280 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,200 I just eager to know what types of things students latch onto. 281 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,320 I think there's a lot of interest, like inspired by your 282 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,400 book with like and the Orca story, which I once spoiled. 283 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,040 So good, but folks were really exploring like the relationship 284 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,360 with nature. So I have a graduate student 285 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,560 who's working on, she uses like sake, like the Japanese rice 286 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:35,160 wine as a way to help groups with like self discovery. 287 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,720 So bringing in like the history and the production of sake for 288 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,240 these kind of facilitated things. 289 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,320 And so she was doing some stuff on like the future of this sort 290 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,480 of facilitation and and like that connection with nature as 291 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,600 part of this process had another student who was looking at 292 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,040 essentially like trying to find like a creative type. 293 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,240 And so like, how do we find like a happy balance between like, 294 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,640 OK, being sorted in this way that is optimized for, you know, 295 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,640 flourishing and good for organizations and teams without 296 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,200 going full on like, what is that sci-fi, young adult sci-fi 297 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,160 series like Divergent, you know, that series, you know, or like 298 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,440 Gattaca or these kind of like almost like, yeah, eugenics type 299 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,800 things, right? Where it becomes too rigid and 300 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,120 people get 2 pigeon holes. And I think another prompt that 301 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,400 I give my students is to like, think about that in between 302 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,400 space, between like a utopian and dystopian future, because 303 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,160 that's where like, a lot of the interesting explorations are. 304 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:38,760 Yeah, no, I love that, right? Because. 305 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,200 And I think you're right that in between utopia, dystopia, like 306 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,920 that's where we're going to be. There's no absolute right. 307 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,480 And like wrestling with even when you put your best ideas for 308 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,600 the best of intentions, it's going to affect something. 309 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,200 It's going to displace somebody. It's going to take over a job, 310 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,440 right? Like things will go wrong for 311 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,760 someone somewhere in the ecosystem, in the fiction. 312 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,000 Such a great way to experiment with that. 313 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,800 And fiction writing sometimes seems very whimsical. 314 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:13,319 But as you're pointing outly, Sean, it's when you get into it, 315 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,160 it actually becomes a kind of Safeway to explore some things 316 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:19,680 that if you were just thinking about it in terms of like 317 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,440 product repercussions after your release, wouldn't feel, you 318 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,280 know, you wouldn't really be able to explore. 319 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,480 You would kind of just get caught in like, well, what's the 320 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,360 cascading impact there? But when you get into the 321 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,960 fiction world, you can kind of play with it a little bit and 322 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,120 allows you to open your mind to things that you know might be on 323 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:39,440 the horizon for whatever you're doing, but you don't want to 324 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,040 think about. Totally. 325 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:42,520 Yeah. There's another point that I 326 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,160 think helped a lot. It's something that I've learned 327 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,600 in the last couple of years. I've been studying comedy, 328 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,400 writing and improv. I hadn't really done much 329 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,880 fiction at all before this. And one tip that I think was 330 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,520 helpful for my students was like, getting them to make like, 331 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,400 one leap, right? That could be like a sci-fi 332 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,320 choice, like with your story, Scott, with the mother who's 333 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,600 like preserved as this AI, but then everything else should be 334 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,720 like grounded around that, right? 335 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,480 So even though like, well, we do have some services that are 336 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,360 doing something like that now, but in this far farther off 337 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,280 future, like the relationship between the two siblings is very 338 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,560 grounded in human feelings. And so by having like yet making 339 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,520 that one jump and then trying to like see like how do you make it 340 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,160 as realistic as possible after that is another way to kind of 341 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,720 keep it grounded in that way. Yeah. 342 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,480 Even as things change, so many things persist. 343 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,200 And so we have a tendency of, I think you're what you're saying 344 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,720 is we have a tendency of writing these stories where, like, 345 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,120 everything's changed. It's all new. 346 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,360 And you sometimes get into then that trap of like utopia 347 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:45,920 dystopia, right? Yeah. 348 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,520 And it's never, it's a mixtopia, it's a messytopia or whatever. 349 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,680 It's just a mess. And and that's because the 350 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,160 things that we've been doing don't go away immediately. 351 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,480 You know, we're still driving cars. 352 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,360 Those were invented over 100 years ago. 353 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,440 Yeah. Even in a mass scale. 354 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,720 Yeah, Or there's like science fiction, like the Jetsons, 355 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,240 right, This cartoon I grew up with where like, they have 356 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,760 flying cars, but then like, they still have to be driven. 357 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,880 Or like, you know, the wife is still taking like, cash money to 358 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,000 go to the mall, right? So there's like all of these 359 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,080 1960s, like sexist stereotypes. So it's like there, it's like 360 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,520 things have changed, but then nothing has changed socially, 361 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,240 which you know, is also something to avoid on that 362 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,560 extreme. I mean, I think that brings up 363 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,960 like the real a really key point, which is like we're 364 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,920 changing things, but what do we actually want to change? 365 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,680 You know, And that that kind of gets into the that story with 366 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,920 the two sisters. Like they're trying to solve 367 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,040 basically like a family issue around how they how they live 368 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,480 with each other, how they interact as a family. 369 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,760 And they think, you know, resurrecting mom's going to 370 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,840 solve this problem, but it's the problem's still there, right? 371 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,840 So like, I feel like a lot of times we're, we're basically 372 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,480 creating solutions that are in need of a problem or we're just 373 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,440 ignoring problems that are in need of a solution. 374 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,440 And so like really just thinking about like, what is the change 375 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,040 that we want? What would the and what would 376 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,560 this technology give us that might be useful or not? 377 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:11,480 I'm curious also to hear a little bit from yours, your 378 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,200 personal take on how you are approaching your creative 379 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,680 process and usage of technology and AI support. 380 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,640 So I've seen myself now at times either, you know, tired or 381 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:31,080 wanting some refresh and going to some type of AI support tool. 382 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,920 And then I'm always questioning myself, shouldn't I be doing 383 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,080 this? You know, like how, how, what is 384 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,800 the relationship that you personally are building and 385 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,200 creating with these tools? It's a great question. 386 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,040 I think it's a, at least for me personally, as an ever evolving 387 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,960 one too. It's one that have a couple 388 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,840 graduate students wrestling with in their year long projects 389 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,920 right now. We have a a group that is 390 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,800 meeting weekly right now that talks only about creativity in 391 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,200 the age of AI and like pushing the limits of that in multiple 392 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,800 different dimensions. So I know that this is one 393 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,720 that's like actively being explored by people from all 394 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:15,880 angles. And I find myself like 395 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,960 constantly like, oh, wait, you do that with it. 396 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,480 Oh, wait, you do. You know, for myself, I 397 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:29,320 sometimes use AI and when I do it is often because I want to 398 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,280 kind of like experiment with what it might be able to do. 399 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,200 I don't think I've worked it into my workflow yet and I think 400 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,200 I probably will at some point soon. 401 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,960 That feels like it's coming. But you know, there's a hurdle 402 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,600 to embracing something into your process, etcetera. 403 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,360 And I just, you know, I haven't crossed that limit myself. 404 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,640 I probably have spent most of my AI time trying to deconstruct it 405 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,000 and make it analog so that other people can learn and understand 406 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,840 it out of AI platforms. So, you know, like making making 407 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,800 like tools you can hold in your hand to say if I use this type 408 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,480 of machine learning algorithm and this type of data set, I 409 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,840 might do or create what right. So I that a big part of my work 410 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:20,800 is, is trying to give some visibility to the invisibility 411 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,400 of what it's doing so that people can feel empowered in 412 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,040 using it and talking about it and talking about all the things 413 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,520 we don't know about it. And that even the most 414 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,600 sophisticated technologist doesn't know about it. 415 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,680 Because that's, you know, it's critical that we talk about the 416 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,280 uncertainty and the, you know, lack of transparency and AI's 417 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,960 decision making. Yeah, I have the sort of mixed 418 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,520 feeling about it too. Like on the, on the one hand, I, 419 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,280 you know, I think there's a lot of issues with it to just around 420 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,680 like creative job replacement, you know, that just make me 421 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,120 really uncomfortable. Not to mention the fact that it 422 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,840 is built off the creativity of people to get there, right. 423 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,760 So that like really, really bothers me. 424 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,960 The like utility of it. I think I've been kind of coming 425 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,000 around to via seeing other people use it a little bit. 426 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,040 So I've seen a lot of examples where people are doing something 427 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,960 that they actually just like couldn't have been done without 428 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,840 it. So one example is the end papers 429 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,280 of our book were created by a guy named Aaron Huey with the 430 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,200 help of AI, who's a National Geographic photographer. 431 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,440 He took pictures of climate change in action over a decade. 432 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:35,360 So wildfires, glacial melt, oil spills, and then he put those 433 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,160 into an AI and had them create wallpaper patterns. 434 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,000 And there's something magical about what came out there. 435 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,680 Then he has a site where you can download those wallpaper 436 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,440 patterns and you can wallpaper your your walls with it. 437 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280 They're beautiful patterns, but they're based on these 438 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,000 disasters, floods, you know. And so it's a way to kind of 439 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720 call attention to climate change using AI to do something that 440 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,680 really kind of couldn't have been done without it. 441 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,360 I mean, I suppose it could have been, but it felt like very kind 442 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:06,360 of original to the tool and that kind of stuff like really 443 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,120 interests me and it's really kind of exciting and you know, 444 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,040 you know, so it's very, very mixed feelings, you know? 445 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:16,160 Yeah, in my own stuff, I've kind of used it on the edges either 446 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,760 like at the beginning and or the end of a writing process or the 447 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,040 beginning is like, OK, well help me ideate or I'll use it of 448 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,560 like, OK, I've already written this thing. 449 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,800 And do you have like feedback or punch UPS on ways to like rework 450 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,440 the sentence or this headline or or whatever? 451 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,520 I did have something really funny happened to me because of 452 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,720 AI recently where somebody else like this woman in the UK, she 453 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,360 used ChatGPT or whatever it was, but the AI hallucinated that I 454 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,360 had written a book that I did not repeat. 455 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,400 And so she actually emailed me and the publisher of the 456 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,480 supposed book, like asked about it. 457 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,800 And I was like, actually, that's a cool topic, but I did not read 458 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,320 this book. Yeah. 459 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,120 So it's like, OK, whatever large language model this was, it was 460 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,040 like, OK, it knows that I'm a real person. 461 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,080 And like, it was like expertise, definitely kind of like adjacent 462 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,240 to my wheelhouse, but then somehow connected it with like a 463 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,880 book that doesn't exist with a real publisher, you know? 464 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,040 Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, One another fun example, 465 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,960 this is one of our graduate students, Veronica Chen, is 466 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,880 working on, like, really exploring this crossover between 467 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,800 AI and creativity, and she's not sure where she lands on it yet. 468 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,120 And that's part of the really interesting exploration. 469 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,760 And she and two other students, Kotorai and Kalina Yang, have 470 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,640 over the weekend acquired a pumpkin that is large enough 471 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,080 that it needs a forklift. So you can just get a sense of 472 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,000 the. Code today, yeah. 473 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,880 And they've used AI with the actual geometry of that pumpkin 474 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,960 to to give them a design for how it should be carved. 475 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,280 And like, there's some really interesting aspects that it has 476 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,000 like, and I'm like, and now they're going to carve that for 477 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,600 for real as humans, right? And like, so there is something 478 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,720 interesting with that back and forth collaboration with 479 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,160 something that is so like an AI cannot carve a pumpkin, right? 480 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,880 But it can suggest and like how well that's going to do. 481 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,400 Like I just can't wait to see it. 482 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,000 It's also just like a glorious, just like object of this season 483 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,720 and this moment. And I feel like these these 484 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,000 places where AI like reminds us that we are really human. 485 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,840 I love too and like this one example of it. 486 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,080 Right. It's like finding that kind of 487 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,920 hybrid Cyborg space, you know, just as like with these future 488 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,400 scenarios, we're trying to find like that space in between the 489 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,680 utopia and the dystopia, but it's like not fully human, not 490 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,840 fully machine, but like, what is that in between is like such a 491 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280 rich area for exploration. Yeah, we already. 492 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,120 Made B mixes, right? Yeah. 493 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:52,440 Where are you going to go there, Scott? 494 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800 I actually wasn't, but do you want to keep going on that well? 495 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,320 I'll just say like, like this human slash machine, like I'm 496 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,720 already a little machine with these glasses on, right? 497 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,240 Like I'm already a little machine if I've had a knee 498 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,480 surgery and there's a plastic part inside of me, you know, And 499 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,240 so how like getting comfortable that with that different kind of 500 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,720 crossover is, is fascinating. Yeah, and I was going to add 501 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,400 that it feels like these weird scenarios that are hurt. 502 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,760 I don't know if we're to the right word, but that idea that 503 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,280 like, you know, you're getting it to kind of you're almost 504 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,880 becoming subservient to it on the pumpkin carving. 505 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,080 But you have to do the work and it can't do the thing if you 506 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,440 don't put it in. You know, this sort of like odd 507 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,200 role that it plays is actually like way more interesting and 508 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,800 exciting than like, you know, it's like a really good 509 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,600 autocorrect editor, you know, that can help me, you know, like 510 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,400 it's a very, it's a much more interesting use case. 511 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:44,960 I think it's fascinating talk about. 512 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,400 Being awkward, you have an entire chapter on that in your 513 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,360 book. We recently had our AIG design 514 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:57,760 conference this year and there was a a workshop on like 515 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,560 neurodiversity and it was like one of the most highly attended 516 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,720 things at our conference. I think designers are probably 517 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,560 over represented. People who are neurodiverse as 518 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,480 well as people in the kind of LGBTQ spaces are also over 519 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,800 represented in design kind of cultures and teams, maybe 520 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,440 compared to the general population. 521 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,760 And often, you know, these are folks who were awkward in that 522 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,920 sense of like not fitting into established dominant ways of 523 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,640 being and and living in the world. 524 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,200 So yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on like why you chose 525 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,360 awkwardness as something to put in the book and and to really 526 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,280 like promote or get designers to embrace like at its. 527 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,480 Core awkwardness is something that you literally feel inside 528 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:49,240 of you when there's a a gap between your expectation of a 529 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,600 moment or a situation or a culture and what you're you're 530 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,680 met with. So it's like a way that you 531 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,880 actually see a distance between you and whatever the quote UN 532 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,840 quote norm or expected behavior. You know, regular flow of a 533 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:10,160 situation is right and design and is really about noticing 534 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,760 those gaps, right where our way that we title a lot of the talks 535 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,440 that we have about this book is is how to see the unseen. 536 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,240 And that's really, you know, awkwardness is in feeling. 537 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,680 It is one way to notice that something's amiss. 538 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,000 And then you can go into like, well, why is that? 539 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,320 And is this an opportunity? Like you're seeing the 540 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,600 neurodivergence? Like I, I feel like that you're, 541 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,680 you're spot on there. Like how are we tapping into 542 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,480 people that already see and experience the world 543 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,960 differently? There's like wild potential for 544 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,560 noticing patterns differently, right? 545 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,120 Opportunities, not only like, hey, this, these people don't 546 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,400 fit a norm, but I feel like there's a whole other way. 547 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,840 Like those are the people that are going to to really see 548 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,880 solutions that nobody else could have come up with. 549 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,480 So like awkwardness is that first signal. 550 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,520 I'll say that. Let's got build on that. 551 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,080 Yeah, there's an. Opportunity in that awkwardness 552 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,720 too. So in that chapter we talk a lot 553 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,440 about gaps and gaps being sort of like the distance between, 554 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,480 like what could be to create a different type of situation. 555 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,560 I'm a little wary about using the word better, but like what 556 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,120 could be to improve a situation and what exists at the moment? 557 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,040 And those gaps come of being feeling that awkwardness, right? 558 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,520 Like if you're not feeling that awkwardness, you're not noticing 559 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,640 those gaps. And I think you bring UA really 560 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,400 important point there, which is like, if you're outside the 561 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,360 norm, you know, I mean, there are a lot of disadvantages to 562 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,320 that, but an advantage is that you're just seeing things from a 563 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,360 perspective that other people aren't looking and there's just 564 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,120 huge windows of opportunity in being able to see that. 565 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,440 So like, I, I can think as soon as you brought that up about 566 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,880 neurodiversity and design, you know, like three people came to 567 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,240 mind like right away, like, Yep. And they are all so good at 568 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,440 noticing. And I think it's no mistake 569 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,600 that, you know, you have maybe a higher percentage of people 570 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,680 identifying as queer in design. And then also differently abled 571 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,640 people or people who have differently abled family members 572 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,080 are often also inspired to do things because you're recognized 573 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,360 that awkwardness. You live in that awkwardness. 574 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,760 And you're not afraid to say like, hey, maybe there's 575 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,880 something beyond this. Whereas a lot of people who 576 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,800 might not sort of have to grapple with it in the same way 577 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,160 just kind of pass through it. They avoid it because it's sort 578 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,080 of like, well, that's awkward, but maybe I don't have to deal 579 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,680 with that. And then you're you're kind of 580 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,040 missing out on a chance to make things better the other 581 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,840 category. Which I see a lot, you know, the 582 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,520 design schools where I teach at Parsons, I also teach at SBA 583 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,440 School of Visual Arts is that the master students are a very 584 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,840 high percentage of them are international students, right. 585 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,720 And so some of them like come and Julia was an international 586 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,480 student from Brazil. And so they're coming into a new 587 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,840 culture and like, so that gives them both like what they're 588 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,120 bringing from their home culture. 589 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,360 But so like noticing things that, you know, I grew up in the 590 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,520 US, so I probably just don't notice because it's just like 591 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760 the water that I swim in. We talk a lot about in the. 592 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,760 Book about untaking things for granted and I think when you're 593 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,000 in a new situation, it's like you don't take things for 594 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,440 granted, right? So you're all of a sudden 595 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920 questioning everything like why is that like that or that's a 596 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,480 weird way of doing that whereas a lot of us are just kind of 597 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,000 accepting it because we have to move through that culture. 598 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,280 Sorry, Carissa. No, I was going to say. 599 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Something similar and you know, when you travel to a different 600 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,480 country, it's totally heightened, right, because 601 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,880 you're noticing that into an extreme, but you can also force 602 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,560 yourself into that noticing in your own environment, right. 603 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,760 If you if you take a totally different path from your home to 604 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,400 you know, where you walk to the bus stop, like you start like 605 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,920 taking things away from your peripheral vision and you tune 606 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,680 in a little bit more. And so there's a lot of that we 607 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:56,320 can do to practice that noticing and you know, like to shake us 608 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,920 into, we call it like us like deliberate disorientation, 609 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,360 right? Like how do you make yourself be 610 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,520 a little bit off kilter in the situation you're in as a way to 611 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,800 see facets of it that you wouldn't have noticed otherwise? 612 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,440 Totally. Julia, do you have any examples 613 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,800 or stories you want to share or and or the next question? 614 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,280 Yeah, I think for me. I'm always it's, it's funny 615 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,680 because I feel like I haven't lost my Brazilian way of seeing 616 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:30,040 things, but I have to remind my remind myself to adjust right. 617 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:36,160 So I think a very, very simple and basic everyday reaction for 618 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,440 me is the like when I meet someone new, I, I never know if 619 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,240 I can hug that person or if I should just say hi. 620 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,040 So there's always this awkwardness inside of me because 621 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,680 I'm like, OK, let me read this context. 622 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,240 And then once I build some relationship with that person, 623 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,760 then I already know, right? Because then the, the 624 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,080 expectation somehow is set. But when is the very first 625 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,720 moment, I always feel like, oh, can I hug? 626 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,200 Can I not? How, how does it work? 627 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,280 You know, so it's always, I'm, I'm always reminding myself to 628 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,760 wait a little bit and then react. 629 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,199 Otherwise it would be more automatic for me in, in another 630 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,280 context. Yeah, I had the opposite. 631 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,360 Experience I had the chance to work in Brazil like over a 632 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,040 decade ago or like in my career. So I was like and I was like the 633 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,639 only American in the office because it was like an American 634 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,960 agency that opened an office in Rio. 635 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,760 Everyone else was Brazilian and there's one colleague who's from 636 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,360 Portugal. It was interesting. 637 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,880 Like for me, the first thing was like just the relationship, 638 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,480 people's relationship to time and the way that meetings were 639 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,159 run and there was like some workshop or like people were 640 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,920 just like the introductions took like an hour and a half. 641 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,520 And that somebody who was one of the workshop participants we 642 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,120 were facilitating was like bicultural, like she was British 643 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,159 and Brazilian but had grown up partly in the US And she like 644 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:51,600 turned to me. She's like, yeah, people have to 645 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,840 feel comfortable first before they can do get down to 646 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,600 business, right? And it's like, OK, well, I'm 647 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,120 going to relax that because. So I felt like, oh, was I losing 648 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,840 control as a facilitator or whatever? 649 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,920 But yeah, it's like that adaptation. 650 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,880 But I also noted, you know, I was doing branding work back 651 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,920 then, but I was able to like, notice things in just the, the 652 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,960 physical environment there in the visual culture that like my 653 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,480 Brazilian colleagues like just weren't noticing because they 654 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,280 were surrounded by that all the time. 655 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,920 Yeah. Yeah. 656 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,440 So it's. It's really amazing. 657 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,400 And Chris had brought up that like, you don't have to travel 658 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,360 that far to get there. You just have to be able to get 659 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,080 into a state that's sort of what we call deliberate 660 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,080 disorientation. There's our publicist actually 661 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,760 worked with a guy who walked every street in either all 5 662 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,640 boroughs of New York or just Manhattan, I can't remember. 663 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:46,760 And he was saying when he talks to people, oftentimes they're so 664 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,160 into their routine, they don't know what like the back of their 665 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,600 building looks like or the block behind. 666 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,680 So like, you know, if I live on 10th, I might not know what 9th 667 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,200 looks like because I leave 10th and I go to work up in Midtown 668 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,880 or something. And that's just my normal path 669 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,760 or the restaurants or off on the river that way. 670 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,400 And so like, there's so much. We actually, a friend of ours 671 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,120 talked about how whenever he commutes, he takes the same 672 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,120 commute, but he tries to notice one different thing on the 673 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,880 commute, Right. And that it just like awakens 674 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,800 you a little bit in the way that like traveling, just showing up 675 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,720 somewhere where you can't help but be awakened. 676 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,200 But you can, you can do it in your day-to-day too. 677 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,320 And I think designers are particularly good at that, 678 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,320 actually. Yeah. 679 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,840 One of my my. Favorite activities in class and 680 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,040 it's in the book is the theory of the derive. 681 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,680 It's a French word which means to drift and it comes from the 682 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,320 psycho geography movement and the from the 60s right And so 683 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,920 essentially it is a the way that you can practice this is go 684 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:53,040 outside and set your timer for half hour, one hour, pick a 685 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:59,320 block of time, no technology otherwise and follow a color 686 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,560 right. So if there's red over there, I 687 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,600 walk over to it and then like wait to see where's that next 688 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,280 red in your peripheral vision and walk to that and where's the 689 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,520 next one in your peripheral And like so you just like allow 690 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,040 yourself to follow something, whether it's a color or a shadow 691 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,240 pattern or acceleration or a texture, etcetera. 692 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,280 And with that simple setup. Send people out. 693 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,720 And then they come back and everybody comes back and they're 694 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,680 like, Oh, my God. Like, I had no idea. 695 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,400 Like the conversations that happened after that, you can't. 696 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,320 I mean, I can't do with them justice, right? 697 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,240 And it's something that any one of us can, can do. 698 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,040 And yet it's like it takes a little bit of inertia. 699 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,600 It takes somebody assigning you to do it, to do it right. 700 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,040 But you see what's right there all along in an entirely 701 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,600 different way. Yeah, that's great. 702 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,080 And I. Think it ties in so much with 703 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,000 our theme of performance this season 2, right? 704 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,320 Just this idea of like, how do we cultivate? 705 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,040 Being a designer. Right. 706 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,440 So when we go and practice it and doing so, it's like 707 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,560 exercises like these that you can do yourself. 708 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,800 You don't necessarily have to uproot and move to another 709 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,080 country, right as we were talking about. 710 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,760 But just these little things like this daily exercise you're 711 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,480 talking about or design fictions, future stories in the 712 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,480 book and writing your own, like things like that. 713 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,000 Kind of cultivate ourselves as designers in terms of how we, 714 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:21,760 how like athletes train, you know? 715 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,600 Yeah. And, and I think the idea of 716 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,240 sort of doing it continuously, there's a lot of research around 717 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,960 sort of career spikes. And often a career spike comes 718 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,840 after some fairly long period of exploration, right? 719 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,200 So it might be like taking a new job, taking some time off doing 720 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,120 a project that's like very different or just exploring 721 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,720 something that you haven't explored before. 722 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,000 And then you start to consolidate what you've been 723 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,880 learning through the exploration and it becomes like kind of path 724 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,080 to higher performance, if you think about it that way. 725 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,320 And the other thing is we often have a tendency to only validate 726 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,200 the things that we learned during a project, right? 727 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,880 Like, OK, I'm on the project now. 728 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,600 I'm going to do a period of research and then I'm going to 729 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,280 go, you know, do my design when the body of work that you've 730 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,560 been doing your whole life. And of course, you have to be 731 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,560 careful about bias and where you're coming from, your 732 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,680 positionality and point of view. But like that body of work can 733 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,480 be valuable at any given moment. So I think like if you think of 734 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,520 performance, it's sort of like thinking of it as like an 735 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,960 ongoing thing rather than a, oh, if I do this now, it will lead 736 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,240 to higher performance versus like, well, if I have these 737 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,680 habits over time, they're going to add up in ways that are 738 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,960 bigger than I can even imagine. Totally. 739 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,040 And I think it's. Like on that point of like your 740 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,120 body of work, it's like your portfolio is more than just the 741 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,040 thing that gets you your next design job, but it's like just 742 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,440 your toolkit of things to go back to, right? 743 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,080 Even if it's like seemingly a totally different project, but 744 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,640 maybe there's something that you can reuse or adapt there. 745 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,720 Yeah, there's like some. Picasso thing and a Picasso I 746 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,000 think was probably not the best very sounds like a pretty 747 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:02,680 horrible guy, but he like did a sketch and somebody. 748 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,080 Wanted to take it you just sketch on a napkin and somebody 749 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,960 wanted it and there and he was like, no, you can't have that or 750 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,480 I'll I'll pay give me $20,000 I'll give you my sketch And they 751 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:12,680 were like, well, you just did it in 30 seconds. 752 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,360 He's like, no, it took me 60 years to get to the point where 753 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,240 I can make that sketch, you know, in 20 seconds or whatever. 754 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:21,400 There is an. Another, another thing that made 755 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,360 me think of 10 years ago, Scott and I did this project at the D 756 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,600 School that was like looking at the future of higher education, 757 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,440 residential higher education in a world where everything was 758 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:37,200 going Mookie, the big online classes moves and the, the, the 759 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,600 thought of like portfolios and jobs and hiring came up and I'm 760 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,960 forgetting who said this, but it became the sentiment. 761 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,000 That's advice that I still give to students when they're 762 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,480 preparing those portfolios, which is around like an employer 763 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,400 is not. They may be looking to see the 764 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,920 work that you have done, but what they really want to know is 765 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,160 like what you have the ability to do in the future, right? 766 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,560 And so how you position what you have done right in ways that 767 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,200 they see that like, oh, this person has been able to mock up 768 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,520 illustrations that have flowed beautifully across, you know, 769 00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:18,240 these apps, etcetera. But like that might tie like 770 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,200 really interestingly to this new type of technology I'm building 771 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,320 where we want to bring in illustration in a new way. 772 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,280 Like it's like you don't need a one to one correlation, but you 773 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,320 have to be able to talk about what you might be able to do, 774 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,160 what you could be able to do that's non trivial. 775 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,760 You know, that's a tricky thing. It's a tricky thing to do. 776 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,320 Tristan Scott, It's been. Great chatting with you about 777 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,840 your book, your teaching, your points of view on design. 778 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,560 You'd like to ask all of our guests a closing question, which 779 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,320 is do you have something to recommend that's not your book 780 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,880 to our listeners? It could be like another book. 781 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,880 It could be a TV show, some piece of media, piece of art, 782 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,040 something to recommend to take us out today. 783 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,360 The book that I. Cannot stop Talking about right 784 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,200 now is called The Light Eaters. It's by Zoe Schlanger. 785 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:07,600 And it's all about the the world of plant intelligence and how 786 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:13,680 plants sense the world. And it has fundamentally shifted 787 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,600 how I go about my day and how I look at everything from a blade 788 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,800 of grass to a bud of a flower. And I think like it is as a 789 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,240 designer, I'm really now in tune, you know, to sensing and 790 00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:29,120 sense making like always have been. 791 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,960 But now from the lens of the the plant world, like, wow, I cannot 792 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,400 wait to see what happens next. So highly recommend. 793 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,280 Amazing. And I was. 794 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,200 I will give some books and media to support this in case people 795 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,760 are interested in. But I have to say like a 796 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,200 fruitful thing for me lately has just been like getting into 797 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:53,240 architecture and trying to understand like what is somebody 798 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,240 trying to say with the thing that they make? 799 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,000 So I think I what I was going to say is like, don't, don't even 800 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,800 read about that. Just go out and like look at 801 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,560 stuff and and like what what is this telling us about the what 802 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,960 the person cared about when they made this? 803 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,440 I think it's just like a really fruitful activity, especially 804 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,880 from a design standpoint. Architecture is everywhere and 805 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,920 it's so rich. I will say like a great book 806 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,240 that gets into that is David Byrne has this sort of not 807 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:22,320 really memoir. It's kind of like a travel log 808 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,520 called Bicycle Diaries where he's traveling and he's biking 809 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,120 in different cities and talks about like how he experiences 810 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,160 those cities. And that's a really great, great 811 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,000 thing. And then there's another book 812 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,880 written by Berkeley architecture professor called A Timeless Way 813 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,200 of Being. So this is Christopher 814 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,080 Alexander, who's famous for this book called The Pattern Language 815 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,240 and the Timeless Way of Being. I think is is a better a better 816 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,520 version of his philosophy. So it's worth checking out. 817 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:51,920 Wonderful. Thank you for. 818 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,840 These great resources and for the conversation today, you've 819 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,560 been listening or watching the AIGA Design podcast. 820 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,000 I'm Li Shawn Huang with Julia Donatello. 821 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,440 We'll see you next time. Bye. 822 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,640 Thanks so much for having us. Thanks for having us. 823 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:06,600 Julia and Li Shawn.