1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 Hello and welcome back to another episode of the AIGA 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,360 Design Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang, Co 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,120 Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:12,080 professional association for design. 5 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,640 This season on the show, we are exploring the theme of design 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,960 and performance, looking at the different nuances and meanings 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,680 of that intersection. And now for my Co host. 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,000 Hi everyone, I'm Julia Donatello, design Competitions 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,800 and Events Manager at AIGA. And our guest for this episode 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,080 is Helder Santo, based in New York City. 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,040 He's a partner at Unnamed. Helder, thank you so much for 12 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,440 joining us on the show. Now let's just get into things. 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,240 You've worked across a variety of creative agencies and later 14 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,360 Co founded your own business. So we'd love to learn more about 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,560 you and your career journey so far, maybe some of the 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,200 highlights, and then we'll learn more about you over the course 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,760 of this conversation. Yeah, sure. 18 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,320 No thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have this 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,160 opportunity to share my story and and it's very nice to meet 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,239 both of you. You know, I started, a big part 21 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:08,480 of my career was starting at Digitas, which at the time was 22 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,240 really focused on, you know, digital marketing and design, 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,200 you know, standard websites. And this is all before, this is 24 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,720 like early 2000. So it's before smartphones came 25 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,640 out, all those things. And what I love about that 26 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,520 moment in my career, looking back in it now, is no one really 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,200 knew what they were doing. Yeah. 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,400 It's like, it's like, it's like the beginning, the beginning of 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,880 the Internet essentially, right. And, and brands really embracing 30 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,640 what it means to sort of have this presence online. 31 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,720 And looking back on that, you know, the decisions we would 32 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,720 make and, and the sort of the appetite for experimentation and 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,440 doing new things was, was, was huge, you know, and we were 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,200 lucky enough at that time to partner with several brands that 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:52,720 matched that appetite that we had. 36 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,680 In fact, one of my highlights there that I always love talking 37 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,520 about is we did sounds kind of silly to talk about, you know, 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,480 it's so standard, especially given this format. 39 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,920 But we did like a live webcast for, for this in person events, 40 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,680 which had like celebrity entrepreneurs. 41 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,960 And there was like, you know, probably like 3000 people 42 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,440 audience and then we had like 10s of thousands watching the 43 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,760 webcast online. And for me, you know, we came up 44 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,240 with that idea to do it. But then it was also like, what 45 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,840 kind of value can we be adding in that moment webcast so it 46 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,800 doesn't just feel like you're watching a show on TV, like how 47 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,000 do you start adding more moments of interaction? 48 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,160 So we started having things like, you know, people, so many 49 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,760 questions online. We enabled people to chat with 50 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,120 each other online. And it sounds pretty standard 51 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,920 now, but this is this is all before like almost like 6 months 52 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:42,200 before YouTube launched. Wow, oh wow, So way before 53 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:43,800 Twitch and all of that sort of stuff. 54 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,400 Yeah, so, so it's but it, it was just like, and that was that's 55 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,200 always been my instinct and sort of experimenting with emerging 56 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,560 media and figuring out how we're going to sort of maximize these 57 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,000 things and not just try and duplicate what exists somewhere 58 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,800 else. That was like a big moment for 59 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,360 me. I mean, we did. 60 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,800 I remember staying up at 4:00 in the morning the night before, 61 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,120 pushing that thing live and getting that, that that sets of 62 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,960 adrenaline from from didn't toss that. 63 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,680 I went to the Gary Bowen, which then was, was widely known as a 64 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,360 traditional agency. They were great. 65 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,560 They were the first year I was here, they were ad age and ad 66 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,480 weak agents of the year. They, they brought me on to sort 67 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,000 of help build out their, their digital practice. 68 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,920 And it was interesting. I remember sitting in a room 69 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,840 with who is then the the chief digital officer and my account 70 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,280 title was like, you know, account managing director of 71 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,080 digital or whatever it was. And I remember saying in that 72 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,120 room I said, you know, well, hopefully we don't need to have 73 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,000 like these sort of descriptors after our names after a while 74 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,760 because everything is kind of digital. 75 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,400 And again, like this is people first. 76 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,720 Totally were digital in your job title was like, oh, this is 77 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,160 distinguishing you in some way, right, not like the. 78 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,000 Default, I know, I know it did, was I guess I kind of understood 79 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,120 the intent behind that because when new technologies emerging, 80 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,480 you need to sort of like identify the real experts in 81 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,040 those fields. But it also felt like at the 82 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,720 same time, it kind of like imposed this kind of like 83 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:15,960 artificial silos and it created more, you know, it created more 84 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,880 sort of territory discussions and roles and responsibility 85 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,519 discussions that maybe was necessary. 86 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,400 But they're one of the coolest things that happened for me was 87 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,000 I came up with an idea that leveraged this is like maybe 88 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,720 2010 that leverage sort of like Facebook's data and use that 89 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,720 data to create custom experiences on this bank's site 90 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,160 that we used to work with. And, and the highlight for me 91 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,800 there was specifically because the clients actually added my 92 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,680 name as an inventor on a patent application and which, which for 93 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,760 me was super cool because clients don't have to do that, 94 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,600 you know, for they don't have to list the inventors from the 95 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,360 agency. But that's when I started that 96 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,600 just like reinforced my kind of self guiding mission of like 97 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,000 experimenting with, with, with emerging media. 98 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,880 And then from there I went to RGA and that's when I got like a 99 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,960 master class and what it means to, to have a good design LED 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,760 company. I learned so much there. 101 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,800 And honestly, I felt like I just hopped on to like a rocket ship. 102 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,840 We, you know, I grew this piece of business which started from 103 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,800 like 5 people to 200 plus in the span of five years. 104 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,240 And, and we were doing, we were doing everything. 105 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,440 We were doing big campaigns. We were doing product 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,160 development for a technology company of concept doing how we 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,520 get flown out to Korea. I won't name the company, but 108 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,440 it's going to seem kind of obvious in a little bit a big 109 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,760 Korean tech company, you know, and I would, I would go out 110 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,880 there and, you know, I would meet with their product teams 111 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,520 and their researchers and we would share kind of, you know, 112 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,680 exciting ideas and prototypes that just kind of like really 113 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,080 brought everything together. And then from there I went to 114 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,000 Wonderman Thompson. That was, that was my first like 115 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,480 big holding company job was owned by WPP and the thing I 116 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,960 learned a lot there as well was it for about 5 years. 117 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,080 But the thing that I really appreciated about that 118 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,280 experience was looking back at my previous roles at Digitas, 119 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,400 Mcgary Bone and RGA. They all have an incredibly 120 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,240 strong culture. When I was at Digitas, Digitas 121 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,080 house was private, then it went public on its own, and then as I 122 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,800 was leaving, it got bought by publicist. 123 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,520 It does just to give you the context that like you felt like 124 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,360 you're working in a company had a clear vision and a clear 125 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,200 culture. Gary Bowen, Gordon Bowen and 126 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,040 John McGarry. We're still walking halls now. 127 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,880 So strong founder like culture. And then obviously our GA, we 128 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,840 had Bob Greenberg, who you know, was is a legend in his own 129 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,640 right. And and and I kind of started 130 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 feeling the absence of that when I went to like a bigger holding 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,920 company model. And that's, that's when I really 132 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,800 just started decided after five years there, I wanted to sort of 133 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,640 go back to a more nimble kind of structure and I decided to just 134 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,280 start my own thing before I eventually joined Unnamed. 135 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,120 Wow, what a journey. It's so. 136 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,960 It's so interesting to see like how things that were used. 137 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,760 It was so innovative back then. Before you 2 leave it. 138 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:18,160 Wow. Yeah. 139 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,200 Yeah, yeah, it was cool. Yeah. 140 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,840 I mean, it's 20 plus years of messing around. 141 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,640 So it's, it's been, there's a lot, you do a lot of good damage 142 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,680 in that time. Yeah, very cool, very cool. 143 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,400 So you started mentioning that you're now a partner at Unnamed 144 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,880 and in your website you categorize yourself as a 145 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,200 regenerative design ecosystem. Can you elaborate a little bit 146 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,040 of what that means? Yeah, sure. 147 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,600 Regenerative design ecosystem, that's really just a way of 148 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,480 saying that it's all about creating momentum with the 149 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,240 clients and that we collaborate with, they come to us with a 150 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,960 brief, we knock out the brief. But then we really embrace those 151 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,440 relationships and those partnerships and oftentimes wind 152 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,360 up connecting them to other people that we've collaborated 153 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,960 in the past or currently collaborating with. 154 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,880 And so when we talk about regenerative design ecosystem, 155 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,080 it's something that our goal is to always create like this, this 156 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,600 ecosystem that's like sort of like self generating or 157 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,160 regenerating and ensuring that that the the clients that 158 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,440 collaborate with are getting like an exponential impact from 159 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,400 working with us, right? So it's not just about knocking 160 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,320 out the brief. It's also about thinking about 161 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,799 their business and connecting them to people with our network. 162 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:36,960 And that becomes incredibly helpful, particularly for the 163 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,280 venture side of the business, where a lot of these companies 164 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,880 are starting up and networking and meeting the right people 165 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:43,960 could literally be the difference between your business 166 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,400 surviving and not, right? Talent is still the most 167 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,360 important thing out there, regardless of what industry 168 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,360 you're in. So, and that that's what we mean 169 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:52,960 by that. We want, we want to think of 170 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,200 ourselves as more than just, you know, a design studio. 171 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,600 We want, we, we really want to position ourselves as true 172 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,720 partners that are willing to go the extra step to deliver that 173 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:03,800 exponential impact. Awesome. 174 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,840 Very cool. So Speaking of Speaking of 175 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,600 venture building, I wanted to hear more from you, your 176 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,240 understanding of nature, beauty in the context, in the context 177 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,880 of creative strategy agencies. So what are the unique 178 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,960 challenges that you might, yeah, you might encounter this in this 179 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,840 context and like merging entrepreneurship with design, 180 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,000 for instance. Yeah. 181 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,040 I mean, so our ventures program is is really exciting and I like 182 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,120 to talk about it in several different ways. 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,480 So one thing is we are intentionally designing a 184 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,920 portfolio of collaborators, clients that we feel give us the 185 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,640 right balance of work to create to keep us sharp, right. 186 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,760 And the interesting thing is we work with both, both like global 187 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,160 established brands and then startups that are trying to 188 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:06,200 become those things. And what we found is that client 189 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:09,680 prospects that we talked to, they love the idea that we have 190 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:14,840 the rigor to get past and through a big system for like a 191 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,280 top ten, a top 10 Fortune company, Fortune launcher 192 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,960 company, whatever it is. And then the the more 193 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,960 established brands love that we're working with startups 194 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,320 because that's where a lot of the innovation happens, right? 195 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:33,040 So having, having like that, that, that portfolio of clients 196 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,240 allows us to sort of like continue to hone our craft, but 197 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,120 then also it creates more opportunities to, to experiment 198 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,720 with these venture startups because a lot of them are 199 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,000 starting businesses or they're starting industries, right? 200 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,680 So that that's a completely different mindset than trying to 201 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:52,680 sell another smartphone or, you know, whatever it may be. 202 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,160 I think this is this is about where they're they're trying to 203 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,320 carve out a space in the world. It's not just for the company, 204 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,040 but they have a vision of how an industry should change or net 205 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,560 new industry. And that just really kind of 206 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:07,080 forces you to think about how to simplify what they're trying to 207 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,720 do right? Because a lot of these founders 208 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,640 have huge ambitions, but you kind of have to like walk the 209 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,080 market to the line. So they understand like what's 210 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,080 happening and what's so disruptive about about that 211 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,080 change. So we we love, we love that 212 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,240 component. So that's at a high level, it's 213 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,640 an intentional, it's an intentional portfolio mix that 214 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,080 keeps a sharp, keeps us on the cutting edge. 215 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,000 And then the, the second component that is, is I think as 216 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,880 a design LED company for far too long, like the value that we 217 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,880 deliver to businesses has been undervalued. 218 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,640 They take for granted great product design, they take for 219 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,880 granted brand identity systems. And, and I think the, the 220 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,320 ventures component is a way of us trying to recapture that 221 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,320 value that we generate for these businesses. 222 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,720 There's a lot of us have touched businesses that wind up becoming 223 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,080 unicorns. And when you look at the, and 224 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,520 when you look at the fee that we would capture associated with 225 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,360 the growth that we help generate for those companies, when they 226 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,480 become billion dollar plus companies, it kind of it kind of 227 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,480 hurts a little bit because you feel like, you feel like you 228 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,320 had, you had such a huge, huge role in building and helping to 229 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,720 build and create this, this brand in a way that helps drive 230 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,320 that growth. So we have two, we have one very 231 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,960 simple principle when especially with ventures one, we never do 232 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,000 anywhere for free. There's never like a straight up 233 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,360 equity, equity deal. What we often do is we find the 234 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,200 cash and equity deals because then we feel like we're standing 235 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,600 on our principle, you know, that we need to have some cash in the 236 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,760 door to keep the keep the business going and to show that 237 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,600 there's a mutual sense of respect. 238 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,880 And then the equity, you know that that's a beautiful, a 239 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,600 beautiful tool that we can implement because then we're now 240 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,440 investors in our clients business. 241 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,920 So their success would mean a lot to us considering we have a 242 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,240 stake in that company. There's like that aligned 243 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,880 incentives with that stake, right? 244 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,960 Exactly, exactly. And that's and that's early the 245 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,600 smarter companies, I think want people that are going to go 246 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,640 along for the ride and and I think it's just, it's a magic 247 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,120 like working with founders is probably one of my favorite 248 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,200 things. Also the toughest, not going to 249 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,040 lie, but but working with founders, you kind of live at 250 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,600 you. You find yourself, I'm guessing 251 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,160 it all the time. I'm guilty of falling in love 252 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,600 with my clients businesses. I just, I'm a nerd in a lot of 253 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,160 ways. And, you know, you get like 254 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,520 sucked into their world and you start seeing the world that they 255 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,520 see it and it could be very different from what you were 256 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,160 your starting point. And I and they just have like a 257 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,760 passion. You know, they talk about their 258 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,680 businesses like they talk about their kids, you know, so yeah, 259 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:36,440 it's, it's, it does a lot for just to try and recap all that. 260 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,840 Like it does a lot to, to keep a sharp balancing A portfolio. 261 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,160 You know, it's a way of recapturing the value that the 262 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,240 design community delivers to these businesses. 263 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,160 And then the, the, the third thing is just, you know, the, 264 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,080 the relationships you build with founders and you get a glimpse 265 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,720 into how they think about things as, as fascinating to me. 266 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:53,800 Totally. Yeah. 267 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,400 On that point of falling in love with your clients, companies, 268 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,080 their startups, it really does extend to this metaphor of 269 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,960 dating, I think this matching between like a, you know, an 270 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,240 agency, a studio with a client, right? 271 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,480 It's like not every agency is for every client and vice versa 272 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,320 in that sense and finding that out. 273 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,720 So you've shared a bit about your approach to things in terms 274 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,960 of like culture alignment with your clients. 275 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,200 There's one more thread that I wanted to explore in your 276 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,720 background and expertise, and then we'll kind of loop back to 277 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,480 the main theme of the the podcast, which is design and 278 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,200 performance. But first, just part of your 279 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,800 background. A, Prior to joining Unnamed as a 280 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,680 partner, you had founded a company. 281 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,400 Is it Ida X or ADA X? Ada X. 282 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Ada X right and so it's it was an experience design company 283 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,720 that later merged with unnamed. You were creating the next 284 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,720 generation of experiences using generative AI. 285 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,000 Love to get your thoughts on the evolution of AI, which is like, 286 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,400 you know, by the time this comes out, they'll probably be some 287 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,440 new thing. But yeah, yeah. 288 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,560 What have you seen so far? Where do you think it's headed 289 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,800 and how to how to designers stay relevant in that space that is 290 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,760 changing so quickly? That's a loaded question. 291 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,080 I was look like I said I'm a total nerd when it comes to the 292 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,000 stuff and I literally lose sleep over just non-stop thinking. 293 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,360 Not anxiety or anything like that. 294 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,600 I just, I get excited about ideas and opportunities and I 295 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:23,040 had that moment a few years ago when when Chachi PT by that big 296 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,720 launch, it's really what set the whole world on fire, right when 297 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:31,240 it comes to Chennai. But you just have, there's a few 298 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,280 moments in our lives where we have this shit moment. 299 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,480 It just hits you like a ton of bricks and you just know that 300 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,480 nothing is gonna be the same after this. 301 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,960 And that was when I had that moment I look at, back at my 302 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,080 career and what I realized is that these moments when new 303 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,600 technology comes out, that's so profound. 304 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,400 These are huge growth opportunities for the creative 305 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,360 industry. So when I, and when I look back 306 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,400 at my career talked with like the big, there's like 3 big 307 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,040 waves, right? There's Internet, mobile and 308 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,360 social. Each of those, each of those 309 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,240 waves played a huge role. And if you look at revenue for 310 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,640 all the studios and agencies, creative services industries, 311 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,760 revenue would go was going through the roof at that point. 312 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,680 And that was that was for two reasons. 313 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,600 One is the, the brands that know knew they needed to take 314 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,160 advantage of these spaces. Either A, didn't have a skill 315 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,720 set in house or B, didn't have the capacity to take advantage 316 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,480 of it. And going back to my earlier 317 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,000 point is like when these things start, everyone is as a novice, 318 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,640 everyone is learning at the same time. 319 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,160 And I had the I had the benefit of that experience not being 320 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,000 intimidated by something like John AI. 321 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,600 Instead, I just embraced it with, with my lens of how I 322 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,880 think about brands and how I think about customers and brands 323 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,960 should interact with one another. 324 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,080 So I use that from like a business model perspective. 325 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,520 Like this could be a big growth opportunity for the industry. 326 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,400 Now, the interesting thing here is that AI, the big chatter that 327 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,240 happened at this moment was, Oh my God, a robot can write well. 328 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,520 And now we're about to starting to make machines are starting to 329 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,119 make pretty pictures and videos. We're all going to be out of 330 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,000 jobs soon. And I, I took the exact opposite 331 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,640 approach and might be you have to embrace this. 332 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,440 This is a new tool that we need to use and how can we use it to 333 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,520 change how brands and customers interact with one another? 334 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,440 Whereas even now that the majority of the use cases for 335 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,280 Jen AI tend to be what I refer to as I kind of like back office 336 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,320 activities. So if you're working in a studio 337 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,760 or an agency and you're a strategist, you're using it to 338 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,000 do research and get the sharper briefs faster. 339 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,080 If you're a logistics company, you're using it to manage your, 340 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,400 your supply chain. But everyone was avoiding, I 341 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:47,800 think cuz of the, the, I think cuz of the sort of the newness 342 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,840 of it and the sort of the how quickly can go the perception of 343 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,800 how AI can go off the rails and get unscripted and start 344 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,640 hallucinating like informations that we see within, within 345 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,600 today. I like the brands understandably 346 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,920 were hesitant. But over the year or two that we 347 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,920 started experimenting, we started developing models that 348 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,840 helped mitigate a lot of these things and started adding value 349 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,040 pretty quickly to the experience. 350 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,000 So, so that was sort of the, the meaning behind kind of that's 351 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,240 why I started the business from like a business opportunity 352 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,200 perspective. And then we want to, I want it 353 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,240 merging with Unnamed because you know, Virgilio and Manny, I know 354 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,400 them, I've worked with them at RGA years ago and, and they are 355 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,680 quite honestly, you know, the top .1% of design talent. 356 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,480 I thought that I have no doubt that we should properly join 357 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,760 forces. Like just giving us the 358 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,600 background and the story and like we like to kind of connect 359 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,360 all the threads of like, where are you coming from, right? 360 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:43,880 Like what is your creative lineage? 361 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,080 What are the things that you're thinking of? 362 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,960 And I think, you know, what you were talking about reminds me of 363 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,520 like, think of some viral post or meme going around within 364 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,360 design Twitter or design threads at that point around Jen AI and 365 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,920 someone saying like, yeah, Jen AI will completely replace 366 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,680 creatives when clients know exactly what they want, right? 367 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,520 And then there's still this kind of like relational layer between 368 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,800 like, you know, the business goals of a client, whether 369 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,720 they're a start up or a mega corporation. 370 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,680 And then what the creative executions are all of the the 371 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,400 touch points in an experience, right? 372 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,000 And that's, you know, that's something that is human 373 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,480 relationships, human experiences. 374 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,160 That's not something replicable by something that can spit out 375 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,840 text or images faster. Yeah, I think just just to build 376 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,760 in that point, like, I feel like the analogy the, the, the 377 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,640 example I always give is if you put a talented designer in front 378 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,800 of the journey and you have a complete 9 designer in front of 379 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,160 the journey and you ask them to make something, the output of 380 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,880 the from a designer is going to have a much higher fidelity and 381 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,600 a much higher because he, he or she just simply knows what's 382 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,880 prompt. There's a, there's a language, 383 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,240 you know, whereas, you know, and I think people miss that. 384 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,200 It's like, it's not, it's magical in a lot of ways. 385 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,520 And then there's also like the kind of more subjective layer 386 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,720 around just taste, you know, like you can't. 387 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,000 It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty. 388 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,720 So, so I always talk about in that context is like, that's why 389 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,600 embracing these tools regardless of your craft is is. 390 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,080 Is a must if you wanna continue to progress in your career. 391 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,040 We're not gonna be able to put that back in its box. 392 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,280 It's out. That's great. 393 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,080 I'm not surprised that you mentioned that you're not afraid 394 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,680 of AI and you have embraced it so easily because you seem to be 395 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:38,360 a visionary working on that, on things before they become live. 396 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,920 It's impressive. So very, very interesting, very 397 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,720 inspiring to hear some optimistic point of view on AI 398 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,840 because I think I've been listening more than the 399 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,400 pessimists. So it's it's good to have this 400 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,120 balance. Yeah, Thank you. 401 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,760 Yeah, I mean it's it's it's AI mean if you look back at every 402 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,120 kind of major revolution, there's always been a concern 403 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,760 about always been a concern about jobs. 404 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,920 This is very different, right? This is like game world changing 405 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,640 technology. A lot of people compare it to, I 406 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,160 talk about Internet, mobile and social as like previous sort of 407 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,840 waves and just like more of like a, a marketing brand design 408 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:20,840 lens. But like when you talk to people 409 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,880 in the AI industry and we work at the few startups now, the 410 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,160 analogy they make is this is like electricity. 411 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,000 You know, this is like when electricity was first launched, 412 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,480 introduced to the world that that's how significant of a 413 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,360 change it's going to be. But I, I, you know, I'm, I'm a 414 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,920 believer. And when you when you put, when 415 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,680 good people use amazing tools, good things come out of it. 416 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,200 So we have to, we just the good people have to outdo the bad 417 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,800 actors. It's kind of like the way I 418 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,320 think about it, you know? But anyway. 419 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,480 Yeah, that's a good take. So as Lisha mentioned, we are 420 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,800 currently working on design and performance as the topic of the 421 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,440 of the year and you have brought many examples of breakthrough 422 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,960 innovation projects that you've been involved. 423 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,720 And oftentimes when we're working with innovative 424 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,160 projects, we need to innovate from inside out. 425 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,360 So with within our teams and, and to our clients and products 426 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:11,360 and services. So what are ways in which you 427 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,360 have built new ways of working or innovative retools or 428 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:18,400 routines with your team and how they have performed? 429 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,320 And if you have an example with AI based tools that would be 430 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,240 great also to hear some examples. 431 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,760 Yeah, that's like a very that's a very active conversation we 432 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,400 have happening right now with unnamed We're we're about to 433 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,840 launch like a new way of of organizing ourselves internally. 434 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,120 And it really comes. I think it all centers around 435 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:49,120 our belief and not having layers and not not having layers and 436 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,400 having seen your hands on work like when you meet us, you're 437 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,160 meeting the team right away. There's no, there's no, I'm 438 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,440 going to go find like 20 other people to do this work. 439 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,520 And I'm going to like we, we, we take that very, very seriously. 440 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:02,720 And the, the challenge with that right now is like we're roughly 441 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,520 like 1515 full time folks and probably got up to like 30 or so 442 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,080 with like when we augment our support with specific skill 443 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,880 sets. But I think the, the, the 444 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,160 challenge in that model like no layers seen your hands on work 445 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,760 is that you kind of by default have to spread out the work a 446 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,400 little bit. So like, you know, we always 447 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,440 have at least have a partner driving the project, but each of 448 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,680 us as a partner has our own unique perspective and has our 449 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,960 own unique craft that we bring to the table. 450 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,560 And what we started realizing is that there's so many moments 451 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,600 where I could benefit from having like Anders, who's one of 452 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,680 our partners, or Virgilio involved in this project. 453 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,720 And instead of just wishing and hoping that it's going to happen 454 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,280 organically, we created like a really simple model where we 455 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,000 have like we call them round table sessions where each, each 456 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,240 discipline gets to see the brief that they come in, as they come 457 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,880 in. We give our point of view. 458 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,040 We see the first round strategy, we see the first round of 459 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,240 creative work at least. And then if there's any sort of 460 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,680 like big client or collaborator pivotal moments, that's when we, 461 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:11,480 we would bring ourselves together. 462 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,280 We've been doing it organically well enough, but we felt like we 463 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,040 needed to build like a little system in place. 464 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,800 So this way everyone gets to impact the work, bringing their 465 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,480 own unique perspective. And ultimately the clients 466 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,440 benefit from that, right? Because we're making sure that 467 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,680 everyone has seen the work. We're making sure that everyone 468 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,280 has been able to weigh in specifically. 469 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,040 So I'm excited to get like to formalize this and these round 470 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,960 table sessions because like even our teams, we get jealous of 471 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,160 others. People work sometimes like, Oh, 472 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,560 I wish I was working on that. And how can I, when can I, I see 473 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,600 this and I wanna just play around with it. 474 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,840 So, but this way we're building it into the system and we're 475 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,880 kind of feeding that curiosity, right. 476 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,040 So that's a model that we're putting in place now and we're 477 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080 really excited. Yeah, I think on this topic of a 478 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,920 roundtable session and performance in this sense, you 479 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,040 know, we think about, I mean, obviously like doing this 480 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,120 podcast interview as a form of performance. 481 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,200 And so is like pitching a client something where there's these 482 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,960 different kinds of performances that are not necessarily just 483 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,040 like standing up on a stage talking about your design work. 484 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,600 So do you have an example of something that is performance in 485 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,320 your day-to-day life and work as a partner at Unnamed And yeah, 486 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,280 how do you think about that? Like how you show up as a as a 487 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,200 leader. Yeah. 488 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,520 I mean, I think for us is the number one thing thing that we 489 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,320 want to communicate as a team. And I think what what clients 490 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,880 and everyone wants to, because this is the thing that I always 491 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,000 remind myself of is when a client selects a partner, that's 492 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,600 a big deal for them. A lot of times if the decision 493 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,160 goes really bad, that that could be bad for their career, right? 494 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,520 And I think a lot of times on our side, we tend to take it for 495 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,360 granted. So I think for the first thing, 496 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,800 especially if there's an existing relationship, I think 497 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,960 the most important thing that we have to do is just build trust 498 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,600 right away, trust and confidence. 499 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,080 It's the dating process, the nation now. 500 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,400 Yeah, 100%. Right, that you're trustworthy, 501 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,120 you're worthy of more time and attention and all of that stuff. 502 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,480 Yeah. And that comes across in a lot 503 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,960 of different ways, right? So, so I think, I think just 504 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,800 just just from my perspective, I think our work speaks for 505 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,880 itself. We have like a really several 506 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,160 strong, dozens of strong case studies that represent a wide 507 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,160 range of, of industries. So while we let the work talk 508 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,840 for itself, like we need to, we need to, we need to solve that 509 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,080 intangible thing like the trust factor, you know, and it has to 510 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,240 be earned. It has to be earned every step 511 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,400 of the way. And I and I think that's, 512 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,120 that's, that's what we try and communicate. 513 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,920 Very cool, can you share the other side? 514 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,480 Like a project that probably was very chaotic that taught you 515 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,320 more than a successful one. I think like chaos and failure 516 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,960 like you, that's that's where you learn, you kind of learn 517 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,520 what not to do and what to do. I think for me, one of one of 518 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,520 the first projects, and actually this was like unnamed, we 519 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,320 developed like this really innovative experience. 520 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,840 I won't mention the brand because we're talking about 521 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,280 performance and things like that, but it was a simple idea. 522 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,040 And the idea was like, how can I brief a brand on who I am? 523 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,920 And then how can the brand reposition its products based on 524 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,480 who I am, but not in like, not like, but there was a lot of 525 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,600 detail in in the system. And then we're only able to do 526 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,200 it because we used Ji or in this case it was literally Chachi PT 527 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,360 where the, the the user would use a very simple interface. 528 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,200 We're talking like 5 sliders. I'm confident. 529 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,680 I'm a nurturer, I'm artistic, I'm whatever. 530 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,000 And depending. And we assigned a value to each 531 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,520 of those attributes. So you can go from zero to 10 532 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,720 across 5. And even that within itself 533 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,200 there was, if you took those scoring system literally, it 534 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,160 would give you something like 150,000 possible permutations in 535 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,200 the sense of creating like a persona profile. 536 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,920 And then from there when you create the profile, then every, 537 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000 every product that that brand offered was now rewritten in 538 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,800 service of that profile. So when you add that layer, what 539 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,920 you wind up getting is you get a million plus permutations and 540 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,440 copy. So the interesting thing there 541 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,720 was just imagine like, imagine like a poor copywriter or 542 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,520 marketing manager approving 1,000,000 lines of copy. 543 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,520 Like it would take a year just to get that done. 544 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,040 So this is what I was talking about earlier. 545 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,040 Like brands have to let go a little bit of the sort of 546 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:27,560 prefabricated, prefabricated lines and assets and have a 547 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,040 little bit of use the word faith, but have a little, have a 548 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,080 structure in a way that sort of mitigates any risk. 549 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,120 And what we found was because we sort of control the input by 550 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:40,240 using that slider, you actually have really good control over 551 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,120 the output because we didn't allow the user to ask or give 552 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,640 open-ended questions or have open-ended responses. 553 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,320 It kind of like created the guard rails and what came out 554 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,440 was really interesting. And the other thing that we 555 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,000 always focus on is how do you start comparing? 556 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,840 How do you start pairing up like discipline needs and having them 557 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,080 collaborate together? And the best thing that we did 558 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,440 is we had like an engineer sitting with a copywriter. 559 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,200 The copywriter would write the structure, the engineer would 560 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,680 put the, the correct prompts in and, and tweak it. 561 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,480 And then there was like a back and forth. 562 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,440 And I love, I love like that one. 563 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,160 Like 2 disciplines that probably would have never met like 3 564 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,280 years ago are now like the key resources, the key craft people 565 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,840 to get this thing up and running out the door that that was. 566 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,440 So that worked. That was it did not hit its 567 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,360 sales targets. But what it did do was from 568 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,320 start to finish, I think it was over 50% of the people included 569 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,760 that experience, which is super high. 570 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,800 And then the the second thing that we all believe including 571 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,600 the clients is that if we instead of create, we created 572 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,880 like a standalone experience to just to get this thing up and 573 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,720 running to learn from it. But if we integrated that type 574 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,640 of experience into an optimized site, a site that's optimized to 575 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,000 drive sales for example, we have like a very high degree of 576 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,480 confidence that that it would, it would meet that that 2nd tier 577 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,520 of of objectives, which is like driving sales for the business. 578 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,920 Yeah, I got it. I wanted to follow up on that. 579 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,760 You were saying this project example didn't quite meet the 580 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,520 sales targets, but it was seen as like this example of this 581 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,160 learning experience. I'm curious if you've seen other 582 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,120 maybe new kinds of performance metrics that have arose from 583 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,120 this AI enabled work, right? Is that also changing the way 584 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,880 that we measure performance of a given campaign or activation or 585 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,480 whatever that might be, and how you think about that? 586 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,280 Yeah, there there's there's an idea we're starting to 587 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,760 experiment with now. To me, it all comes down to 588 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,880 what's the benefit of having Jet AI as part of an experience with 589 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,160 a brand and a customer. This could be like a product or 590 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,800 like an app or whatever. It could be, you know, a 591 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,360 marketing experience, it could be customer service, it could 592 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,640 be, it could be any of these things. 593 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,320 And for me, the most amazing thing that happens within Jet AI 594 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,520 is it gives you, especially when you're talking about large 595 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,960 language models, it gives you the context, right? 596 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,480 Doesn't just give you answers, it gives you the context so you 597 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,840 understand the answer, which is like what, what the best 598 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,160 teachers do, right? And what that context sort of 599 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,280 under what, what underlies underlines that context is, is, 600 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,040 is really empathy. I'm not just giving you the 601 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,080 answer, I'm trying to connect with you. 602 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,760 And I think that is the sweet spot for creating and designing 603 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,440 new experiences that leverage the capabilities of Jet AI. 604 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,280 It's really to sort of help bridge the gap between a brand 605 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,760 and a customer with empathy, showing that you understand what 606 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,160 they're trying to achieve, showing that you understand who 607 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,480 they are and showing and just giving them helpful information 608 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,840 and context as they make whatever decision needs to make 609 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,040 when, when they're, when they're interacting with the brand. 610 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,320 And, and the metric that we're playing around with now is, is, 611 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,520 is something that we just stole it from standard language in the 612 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,760 psychology business, which is the emotional quotient EQ, 613 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,120 right? You know, EQ, having a high EQ 614 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,800 is actually a really strong indicator towards someone's 615 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,360 success and in, in a lot of fields. 616 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,800 And we, what we're trying to do is say, Jenny, I, if it's 617 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,040 superpower could be creating empathetic experiences, how can 618 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,400 we start measuring experiences based on the perceived EQ of 619 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,000 that brand, right? Does that brand have a high 620 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520 emotional quotient? Does that brand understand what 621 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,800 kind of help I need? Does that brand understand what 622 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,160 I'm trying to achieve as a person? 623 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,400 And then how is that brand then regenerating itself to to be 624 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280 more bespoke to you and in a very empathetic and human way? 625 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,000 So I think it's, it's kind of a weird thing that, you know, 626 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,360 Jenny, I is allowing us to be more human at scale. 627 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,640 If you think that's like another silly way of thinking about it. 628 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,720 It's like it's, it's, it's a tremendous opportunity. 629 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,320 So that so we're. Yeah, I think that's really 630 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,720 helpful for both agencies and brands, right? 631 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Thinking about this is like, OK, yes, there's like the bottom 632 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,520 line, but also this is also an opportunity to think about these 633 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,200 new metrics, right? And like, I think some of the 634 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,400 public social media kind of stuff around AI art, whereas 635 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,240 it's like, you know, individuals playing with it, you know, it 636 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,160 often is like at this very surface level of like whatever, 637 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,680 you know, the, the trendy cool thing is whether I mean, at the 638 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,160 time of recording this, we just had like a week of people 639 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,680 posting their like studio Studio Ghibli RIP offs or those like 640 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,040 starter kit things, right? And like these are just kind of 641 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,320 like trends or just people experimenting. 642 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,120 And like, it can be polarizing. But I think at this deeper level 643 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,000 for professional designers, for agencies who are doing this, it 644 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,520 really is involving like rethinking of what performance 645 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,680 means as well. Yeah, 100 percent, 100%. 646 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,160 Very cool. So what are your aspirations for 647 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,240 Unnamed for that coming years? Is there anything specific that 648 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,720 you're focused or you wish that new challenge, like what type of 649 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,040 new challenges or new clients you might be focusing on from 650 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,480 now on? Yeah, I'll tell you one thing. 651 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,520 It's great because we're we're a group of dreamers. 652 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,640 You know, we're in the most, in the most practical sense. 653 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,320 So I think we get get caught up in how ambitious we are 654 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,360 sometimes, which I think is a great is a great place to be. 655 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,360 And you know, there's one thing we have in the hopper that we 656 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,440 can't quite make public yet, but that's something that we're 657 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,280 really excited about, which hopefully is a stepping stone 658 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,920 for us to kind of reframe how the creative services industry 659 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,280 engages with clients and partners. 660 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,080 So I have to be a little cryptic, but I can't really talk 661 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,080 about it. But yeah, but that's like 111 662 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,920 ambition we have. And then, you know, in terms of 663 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,199 when we talk about this type of work that we do is product 664 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,360 design and identity design and then activation, right? 665 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,800 So that could be anything from like a campaign to like whatever 666 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,719 it may be. And I think for us, we want to 667 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,440 keep on building relationships with our collaborators in a way 668 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,400 that allows us to hit on all those 3 markers of deliverables, 669 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,560 you know, because I think that's when we're, we, we feel most 670 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,040 excited about the work that we're doing. 671 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,920 And I think that's when the clients are getting that 672 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,480 exponential impact from our, our relationship. 673 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,760 I think like in terms of the work that's getting us really 674 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,320 excited lately is really the connection between like hardware 675 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,040 and software and kind of like figuring out, especially from 676 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,160 our product design perspective, how these two worlds where we're 677 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,400 working with a bunch of company right now. 678 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,200 It's not quite launched, but to have a hardware software play, 679 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,760 it's a wearable and, and, and app companion. 680 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,120 Let's say we just got the identity approved to the brand 681 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,840 identity and we we parallel past doing the brand identity and the 682 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,680 product development and design so that so that everything feels 683 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,080 like it's coming from one system. 684 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,840 And even like the little micro interactions you get with with 685 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,880 an experience feels like it's different being defined by 686 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,080 brand. We often say like brand is 687 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,600 interface and it's, it's working an entirely new space. 688 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,080 It's like a first of its kind tech product. 689 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,800 And this, this goes back to actually I think Julia, you 690 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,360 asked around the regenerative design ecosystem. 691 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,080 We got to a point where the ideas that we were coming up 692 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,360 with was completely changing the brief. 693 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,640 It had significant influence on the product design, which is 694 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,520 great. Like, I don't know one agency 695 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,200 who wants to do that, doesn't want to be in. 696 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,720 That position, yeah, being able to like redefine your brief is 697 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,720 like, yeah, such a gold standard of being able to get to, right. 698 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,200 Otherwise you're just implementing somebody else's 699 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,400 ideas. Exactly. 700 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,600 So we started asking a question because, you know, they're a 701 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,160 start up and they're well funded and they're going to, you know, 702 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,200 they're going to have a very successful venture. 703 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:20,760 We started asking a question like, do you guys have the right 704 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,840 like technology skill set in house to bring this thing to 705 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,720 life and and the way it should be? 706 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,560 And they said no, no, like do you know anybody? 707 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,040 But Yep, we should. We sure do. 708 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,240 And it's not, and we're not trying to say this is like a 709 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,400 he's not like a a named employee. 710 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,640 That's, that's, you know, we're not trying to create a facade. 711 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,640 You just bring him in as a collaborator. 712 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,080 And he, he, he's part of our, he's now a part that we're now 713 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,960 all part of this like design ecosystem, right? 714 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,320 We did something that we think is going to make the product 715 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,760 much better. And we brought the right 716 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,080 technology resources to iron out the framework to be able to 717 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,960 create this experience in a, in a fluid way as possible. 718 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,560 So I think that's that, that's a way we're, you know, going back 719 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,920 to like all these things are starting to emerge, right? 720 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,280 What's Yeah, I mean, you've shared so much advice already 721 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,280 about your current practice and your approach to AI and to the 722 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,000 the agency business in general. But what is a piece of advice 723 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,000 that you would give to young designers today who want to get 724 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,400 into the kind of stuff that you're into? 725 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,760 I think honestly, it's, it's embrace change, it's going to 726 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,520 happen. It's going to happen every day 727 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,280 on every project, every year or so in your career. 728 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,680 It's just going to happen. And the people, the people who 729 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,080 succeed are the ones that are recognized as a challenge, but 730 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,600 get in, try and get into solutions mode and don't get 731 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,240 down on themselves too much. I wish I could mention some of 732 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,480 these brands to give you more context, but I feel like it's, 733 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,040 it might be inappropriate. It was what we had an A list 734 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,600 celebrity that we were shooting with in four days time and the 735 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:59,120 clients had it changed the like brief in a significant way. 736 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,560 The idea that we had was just gone, but we only had one day to 737 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,240 shoot with this actor and we had 3 1/2 days to figure out how 738 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:09,200 we're going to salvage the shoot. 739 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:15,080 And we came back with with an idea within 24 hours that saved 740 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,840 the shoot. We got everything that we needed 741 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,600 and the results for that particular business went through 742 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:20,840 the roof because of this campaign. 743 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,640 And I think that's, that's the mindset of like embracing 744 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,920 change. What clients are paying for are 745 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,440 problem solvers. Anyone could get something done 746 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,120 when everything goes like perfect. 747 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,080 The people who are going to continue to succeed are the ones 748 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,440 that embrace change, right? The one, the ones that just know 749 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,240 that this is this is a new way of living, a new way of working 750 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,560 is being, is being defined right now. 751 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,240 Totally. And you could be you could be 752 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,880 the person that helps define it. Totally, Yeah. 753 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,320 You know, and I think that's, I think that's. 754 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,000 Yeah, thank you. Very, very cool. 755 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,160 Very cool. Yes, I love it. 756 00:38:53,960 --> 00:39:00,040 I'm getting fired myself. I also, I'm here like you 757 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,240 mentioned, so many new things that you've learned and that 758 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,480 you've embraced in terms of like change and tools and so on. 759 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,920 I'm curious if you're special, like if you're interested in 760 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,800 anything specific right now that could be professionally or 761 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,920 personally, Maybe a new habit of new type of activity or a topic. 762 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,000 Yeah, that's a good one. And I'm sorry, I think I'm going 763 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,080 to give you like the most cliched answer possible, but I 764 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,840 think becoming a dad is like, it just completely changes your 765 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,640 perspective on everything. You know, I have, I have two 766 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,280 kids. We have two kids in in a year. 767 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,920 So they're, they're 361 days apart and it's super. 768 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,680 Change. It's, it's super cute because 769 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,720 four days every year, they're the same exact age. 770 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,480 So just to give you a sense of how close they're and I think, 771 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,440 you know, I mean, kids are a gift in a lot of different ways. 772 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,920 And I get so much joy in watching them explore the world 773 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,800 and like see things for the first time like that. 774 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:02,960 Those are really special moments. 775 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,680 But I started thinking about it the other day. 776 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,560 It's like, I think the biggest sort of gift that they give you 777 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,200 is they, they force you to think about, think about things in 778 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,280 long, long term, right? They expand your time horizon. 779 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,600 This is a really practical example of that is, you know, 780 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,720 when my my kids will probably graduate high school 1415 years 781 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:24,440 from now, That puts things into perspective immediately. 782 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,640 If we were to all think about where we were 14 or 15 years ago 783 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,840 and we were trying, we were trying to put ourselves in that 784 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,640 mental state, what were we worrying about 14 or 15 years 785 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,400 ago? Do we still worry about it now? 786 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,720 We still worry about it now is done. 787 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,880 Yeah. And that's what I think about. 788 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,400 Like we all have stressors. We all have anxieties. 789 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,520 But like when I started thinking with that long term lens, like 790 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:52,160 it, it has a way of like making things feel smaller and more 791 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,120 surmountable. And, and yeah, like I, I think 792 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,400 that I think that's the thing. Once I graduate high school, 793 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,160 I'm, I'm, I'm fucked. I guess I don't know, because 794 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,000 then my timeline is going to go back to day-to-day. 795 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,880 But no, but all kidding aside, like they, they, that that to me 796 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,040 is like the biggest thing. It's, it's really freed my, my, 797 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,160 my way of thinking and, and sort of like allow gives me 798 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,320 permission to think about things in the long term and not stress 799 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,000 about the day-to-day stuff that happens in all our lives and all 800 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,040 our careers. Appreciate that perspective. 801 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,360 So as we're rounding out our time together, we'd like to ask 802 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,400 all of our guests for a recommendation. 803 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,920 It could be for a book, a show, a movie, any piece of media that 804 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,720 you'd like to recommend to your listeners or to our listeners 805 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,040 and to our viewers who are watching this on YouTube. 806 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,640 I mean, like, I'm going to give you another appreciate answer, 807 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,720 but I think it's genius in so many ways. 808 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,080 And everyone's going to say this. 809 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,520 I'm sorry, maybe it's not cool enough. 810 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,680 I'll say it anyway. It's Severance. 811 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,080 I think Severance is genius. I think I think it's genius. 812 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,640 I think the thing that what really like clicked with me 813 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,760 after a couple episodes is like, if you think about like all of 814 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,800 us in our, in our lives and work, professional and personal 815 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,480 careers, I would venture to say that like 90% of us had this 816 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,600 thought. Like, I wish I could just turn 817 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,360 off my personal life so I could focus on my professional life. 818 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,240 I wish I could turn off the professional life so I could 819 00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,040 focus on my personal life and what, and no one really thought 820 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,160 about like if you literally made that wish come true, what that 821 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,960 life would be. And I didn't, you know, and 822 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,520 it's, I love that they took like a very kind of like implausible 823 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,120 idea. And they just, they just showed 824 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,160 you how messed up that would be and how we lead both, both parts 825 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,240 of those lives to sort of be aware of one another because I 826 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:35,880 have a whole life. And that's kind of like how I 827 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,800 it's, it comes from like a very human thought of just being able 828 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,440 to like silo ourselves for the right moments. 829 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,280 But if you took it literally, I love how far they took it. 830 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,920 And I think that's to me, like, I don't know, I only hear people 831 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,000 talking about that angle. So maybe everyone's gonna say 832 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,120 this most obvious thing ever. But like, for me, I was like, 833 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,160 that's it's super interesting. No, So I get a kick out of that. 834 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,600 That's awesome. I actually haven't seen the show 835 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,880 yet but I've heard so many good things so I need to. 836 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,560 You ever knew my Apple TV subscription? 837 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,680 I promise I did not ruin anything for you. 838 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,120 That's the premise of the show, not any. 839 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,960 Ads. No spoilers. 840 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,240 Not spoilers. Very cool. 841 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,880 All right, well, finally, to wrap us up, Helder, could you 842 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,920 tell our listeners, our viewers, give them a call to action 843 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,320 about, you know, where they can learn more about you, your work 844 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,200 at Unnamed? We'll post links to the show 845 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,520 notes and to the YouTube description, but it's helpful 846 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,280 for folks to hear it from you. Yeah, I mean, honestly, they can 847 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,440 just e-mail me Helder at unnamed dot XYZ. 848 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,520 You can follow me on LinkedIn, but I don't post very 849 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:37,960 frequently, although I'm trying to work on that. 850 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,840 I'm trying to get over that cringe status of posting too 851 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,080 much on LinkedIn. But but yeah, I think the best 852 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,760 thing, I always love interacting with people and sort of learning 853 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,280 where they're from and what skill sets they have and what 854 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,480 opportunities they want to discuss. 855 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,400 My e-mail address is the best way to get a hold of me and if 856 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,280 it and if you get on then you get my cell phone number and you 857 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,880 can text me anytime. Yeah, amazing. 858 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,720 Well, thank you so much for making yourself so available to 859 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,680 our. Listeners for. 860 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,720 Viewers and for yeah, spending the hour with us talking about 861 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,280 your work at Unnamed, your thoughts on working with clients 862 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,280 and brands and your approach towards technology and a whole 863 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,400 bunch of other things. So thanks again, Elder. 864 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,240 Yeah, I appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. 865 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,240 Thanks guys. All right, and thank you for 866 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,800 watching and listening. All right, see you at the next 867 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:21,760 episode. Bye.