I love project management for a number of reasons, right?
One, it's just been a big part of my life for a long time.
But the, what you can accomplish through a team is much greater
exponentially greater than what you can accomplish as an
individual. And I think it, we talked about
young people earlier what they want is to do something
meaningful, right? And they can do something
meaningful on their own, but if they, if they get together with
a group of people, you can do something exponentially more
meaningful. Going forward whether they're
leading or just participating in the process.
Together, we're stronger. Hello, and welcome to design,
adjacent the podcast that talks about the Nexus of design both
today. And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben
EF Johnson and today our guest is date Garrett.
Volunteer leader engineer project management.
Enthusiasts, Dave Garrett started by volunteering in the
project, management organization PMI, prior to becoming Ploy by
the organization through a career that sustains startups
and growth positions. He currently serves as the chief
strategy and growth officer of PMI, he works guiding strategy
across the organization to Define test and deliver
solutions that enable individuals and organizations to
have impact and propelled change around the globe.
Dave's been a leader in the development of project
management methodologies and the support of the project, Engine
Institute and was the CEO of project management.com.
Originally got hit got some vodka so today, I'd like to
Welcome to our podcast. Dave Garrett.
Thanks Benny. It's wonderful to be here.
It's incredible to have you. I think about looking at your
bio and realizing you started off.
As a volunteer leader, I did working with project management
and if this takes me back to those days because project
management is really come into its own over the Two decades.
But there was a time when no one knew what project management was
as a profession. No, no, really, really has.
It's a seems like everything's a project these days.
If you think about it, you think economy?
If you think about all this happening in the world, all the
could sell thing that's happening.
The fact that people are managing their own careers in a
way that is, sort of project to project.
There's, you know, project manager world has really grown
expanded and I think become more relevant over time.
It really has even when we started thinking about, Out our
podcast in this space of design adjacent, one of the things I
noticed almost immediately and coming into my role here at
aiga, is the large number of designers who carry the PMP
certification who carry kind of a commitment to project
management in their skill set and a part of their toolkit.
What do you see? As is kind of an overlap between
design management and project management.
As you've seen your time you know it's interesting.
I think I could look at it from two angles, I can look at it
from the angle of the you know what?
And a designer draw from the project manager world and I can
look at it from the angle of what can a project manager draw
from the design world. And I'd start with, actually the
ladder, the design world is all about Vision.
It's all about articulating that Vision with passion and driving
towards a unified goal. And I think that's something
that the project managers can learn a lot from design is
inherently intricate abstract, it's thought-provoking and
that's what you want your project to be.
If you're if you're a project manager, you want to get people
to follow you. You you have to be able to
articulate a vision like that. A really strong Vision in a
project management context. And people will follow people
will have be much more likely to own the result.
We're all driving towards. If you do that, it's
interesting. I have an example of that.
Actually. The guy who designed the Tesla
Model S his name was friends with on households housing.
Sorry. I always stumble over that house
houses. Yeah he's key was given a set of
drones design parameters as all designers are you know he said
they said you know, we want a Midsize sedan the seat six
people and their luggage comfortably in a design is
functional and engaging. So pretty simple, high level set
of parameters and what he did was he came up with a couple of
principles that really articulated where he was headed
with that design. The model S, you said must be
efficient. It must have drawn attention
without demanding attention, which I think is kind of a cool
like balance, you know, draw without Bandit, you know,
without demanding it and then the model S was also to be
technology Centric. All The technology.
So when you look at this thing, when you operate this thing, it
has to be all about the technology.
That's the message. We want to send as the design
team for the model S and you look at the visual design of the
interior and exterior, it all aligns with principle number
one. He got all the people involved
in designing that model S to design things in a way that
draws attention without demanding at you, think about
the front end, there's no grill, right?
That sort of quietly says, this is an electric car.
You think about the Frank, you know, That's a really, really
cool but it's kind of hidden, you know, it's kind of subtle,
it's not, it's not a something that screams, you know, you must
pay attention to me. But it's something that really
invites attention, you know? It's really interesting that we
think of the work starting for project but when I think about
designers are approaching what we see in our world today, we
really take a step back and there's a more macro starting
point of a problem and then understandings you mentioned
before that Synergy between project management and And
design management and thinking, what are we trying to do and
solve the problem statement drives, then the project.
Yeah, absolutely. We were thinking a lot about
design, thinking in the context of project management, you know,
it's interesting, 20 years ago, you would be handed a project
that was really well, formed, you know, something that's sort
of everybody knew exactly what you're driving towards and
really the way to get there. You know, the steps were pretty
clear from getting to a to be these days.
There's so much ambiguity in the world.
There's so much ambiguity with everything we're doing.
Especially with technology and and all of that, and you're
really handed a problem more than you are at.
You're handed a project. So, how do you deal with that?
And that's, that's where design thinking comes in.
And we think about it as a way to work with the team.
So you co.design, the problem, you really understand the
problem in a way that you didn't, before you sort of say,
maybe it's not exits, why? And you go through, there are
series of techniques to get you there and if you ask the team,
Sort of redefine the problem in a way that makes the most sense
to the team. The team has more ownership over
it and then you co develop the solution together using design
techniques design, picking techniques and you co-own the
solution in a much stronger way than you would have before.
So you combine that with a strong project vision and you've
got a real great formula for everybody getting this behind
the same concept everyone driving towards the same goals,
shared accountability, pure, Ownership of that result.
And that's really important. So design thinking is a huge
part of project management today and imagine design as well, it
really is and units. We talked about kind of this
Nexus and how you take these two disciplines and kind of the best
of it Blends together. Provides that, that long-term
impact both inside the organization in the broader
face. You're going to have.
Because you're right the days of having really, really
well-executed solutions that don't align with learning
problems are over within the text of design thinking, you
know, we think about what are the right questions to ask.
It's a solve that problem or to define the problem.
It's techniques like the five wise technique that we often use
there, and then we talked about visualizing an organizing
information effectively. You know, when you make things
visible, whether you're talking about some sort of sticky, note,
technique or a whiteboard e technique to collaborate whether
it's online or in person and we're leading much more to
online these days. It's being able to see that
information, organized it away. You can understand it.
And in a way that you can remember it is super, super
important and mid-sized. It gives you like a forum to
collaborate around and then it's of all about getting the
necessary people engaged and ready to act.
You know, the people with the right skills that that sort of
diverse group of people that's going to come at the problem
from different angles and gather come up with the right solution.
Well it's really telling you as you talked about it in the
diverse set of people in there 20 years ago a lot of the
projects were talked about within single digits Disciplines
or single Industries was a problem.
They were all the same. It coders working on a problem.
All the same construction Engineers working on the
problem. Yeah.
But today we look at it and the best the most successful project
management teams and design. Let teams bring in a really
diverse set of skill sets for project.
We made before, you'll have industrial Engineers with
graphic designers with coders with Business Leaders of
economists here. Exactly right.
And I think it's Gets to be much more cross-functional, these
days. You know, about the way that
businesses are organized, you end up with people from all
different business functions that gives them a different
perspective. You often even end up with
customers in the equation you know customers in the
collaborative process in a way that they never have been before
because everything is so customer-centric right now.
A lot of these design thinking exercises or show-and-tell
techniques you know what do you think of this?
What do you think of that? And the person you want to know
is opinion of the most is your customer.
Or if you want to know what they're thinking, what's
attractive to them, when you think back over the last 10, 20
years of kind of project management growth in
methodology, what is some of the things that you did you call out
where the methodology is changed over time?
Well, I'd say, you know again like 20 years ago, we were
looking at pretty strictly a very traditional way of magic
projects, a predictive way of managing projects, will do all
of your planning sort of upfront.
Then you execute, and that still works really well for Or say
designing a building or a bridge or a lot of things, where the
path forward is well-worn, you know, where it's where your, you
know, what you need to do is well understood, but when you
deal with more ambiguity, when you deal with things like you
know it projects software projects, changing customer
requirements, changing environments, there's a lot of
ambiguity there. You need to take a more agile
approach and we really lean into that as the project management
Institute these days. There's a lot of iteration
involved there you Do a little bit, you learn to do a little
bit, you learn, there's a lot of failing fast in a small way so
you don't fail in a big way Downstream.
And there's a lot of sort of learning that goes on from this,
from this little failures that you able to disseminate to
others and make sure that others don't make the same mistakes you
do. So you're not sort of starting
from scratch. Every time you're building on
the experience, the cumulative experience of your team of your
organization. It's so interesting.
We talked about kind of adjacent space That you could substitute
designed for each of those phases in which you mentioned
project management. Yeah, I think you're right.
You know, how do we iterate? How do we make kind of small
bets in risk and understand and kind of learn from those faces
that go into it. Let me think about this.
We think about career Journey, it's interesting.
But now, people can set up careers to say I'm a project
manager, I'm a program manager. I'm insert design program
manager, but we were just talking talking earlier and how,
you know, it took some time for that even to be a recognized
career path or chatting with OPM and the government in mentioning
talk a little bit about how PMI is work to kind of expand the
notion of what it means to be a project manager.
Yeah yeah, it's interesting. You know many years ago again
I'll go back, 20, 30 years ago and PMI has been around.
For 52 project management was considered more skill rather
than a profession and it's an interesting.
Thing. I think it's a skill set that
many many people need. You know, we estimate probably
90 million people across the world.
Need the skill of project management and and we end up
calling those people changemakers the broader
audience of change, makers out there, people who need to drive
change in a positive way. They met some large portion of
the may become professional project managers, and some point
that's a great way of thinking about it, right?
But they're empowered through the skillset.
Yes, to be delivered change rightly then they may become,
you know, professional project managers p.m.
PS at some point Downstream when that's appropriate for them.
And once they do the interesting thing around, being a project
manager, professional project manager is the transferability
of those skills. Think about like the ways that
you can move from industry to industry or function to
function. It offers a lot of flexibility
and in today's world where we're living in a gig economy, that's
a huge advantage to have that that toolkit as part of who you
are and have that label of professional.
Project manager be a part of who you are as well.
When you think about project Management's growth, it isn't
something that's just been isolated to the US which really
talking about a truly Global phenomenon in terms of the
growth of the profession. Now it's absolutely Global.
It's absolutely Global and should China.
We are absolutely exploding. You know, in terms of
certifications just as one example, you think about the
Belton Road and there should have all the right construction
that's happening over there and, you know, not to mention the
construction this Opening here, you know, it's a infrastructure
bills and that sort of thing. And then just globally
everything that's going on Project managers, are in demand
more than ever before. You know, if you look at the top
10 lists of in-demand careers project management is always
always on there. So we're definitely growing when
you think about kind of the growth of a fashion and the
project manager of 2022. What advice do you have a wet?
What Vision do you have for the project manager of 2030?
Yeah. You know, it's really
interesting. You know, we have focused a lot
on technical skills over the years, you know, I do you manage
stakeholders, how do you plan? How do you know, execute in
various ways? Now, we're leaning more into
what we call power skills, you know, which are soft skills.
Things like collaborative, leadership, empathy
collaborative study leadership, was talking a little bit about
during our design thinking discussion, you how do you get a
team to drive forward together in a collaborative way?
And then empathy is so very important.
These days. When the thing about being
remote is you need to connect with people, you still need to
connect in a strong way. How do you do that?
You need to have empathy for them as a human being.
You can't just treat them as like another sort of gear in the
Box, you know? So, empathy is critical in terms
of a soft skill or power skill and then on the other side of
what we call our talent triangle.
So there's the sort of this technical skills or the ways of
working. Then there's power skills and
then there's business Acumen. You think about this?
Asians being pushed down in organizations these days you
don't have decisions all being made at the top anymore.
You haven't been pushed down to an appropriate level.
The people who those decisions are getting pushed down to need,
to understand the impact of their decisions on the people
upstream and downstream from them, the impact of their
decisions on the strategy, the impact of their decisions on the
project, they need to have a more holistic view of the world
and the business itself. So they need to have the Acumen
to be able to do that. All those things are really
important and then just as a layer on top of all of Of it.
Digital fluency is something that we consider very, very
important understanding the technology and how it can help
you drive forward on these projects, or how it can be woven
into what it is that you're doing in a way that makes you
more effective makes the project.
More effective makes your team. More effective makes you more
successful in driving towards that outcome.
It's interesting that you built it on the triangle.
When we were doing our recent design POV research and we're
looking we ask the basic question.
And what it means to be a designer today and we came up
similar kind of three points. We came up with skill, set the
tools and things that you have a mindset, which is being open to
the Divine speaking space, and then an impact set.
Well, you can have how you drive spaces is what it means to be
contemporary designer. Today, that's really cool what's
the impacts and what the impacts that is, we have conversations
that sometimes that are friends and we are definitely our
friends at Engineers Engineers often.
Often look to solve problems for the sake of solving problems.
Designers look to solve problems that have human impact that have
human need at heart. So it's not just solving the
problems at solving, the problem to make a human experience
better. So it can be something as small
as the way we interact with our screen to something as large as
the way we interact with the world.
But looking for, how can I take this expertise?
How can I take the rigor and the skills that I have with the
creativity and apply it to something that Matters, right?
As we said we can solve it, we can solve anything but not
everything is the focus is going to have the impact.
You know, that that's a beautiful thing and in the
project manager will be talked about the difference between
outputs and outcomes, right? You know, so I now put is like,
what are the tangible thing that you're producing.
You might be, if you're a consultant producing some sort
of deliverable, but what is that deliverable?
What is the impact of the deliverable going to be?
That's the impact. That's the outcome that you're
you sure you're aiming for and you try to get teams to drive
towards outcomes rather than outputs.
So I'm similar concept. So when we think about, you
know, kind of the future, what are your thoughts on what this
next generation of work is going to need and look like, you know,
I know that all bets are off at to the last 24 months kind of
thrown in the air. But what are you seeing from the
PMI perspective and your kind of global view of the world?
What is the future of our work experience looking like you know
it's interesting, it's a, it's going to be more remote no
matter what, you know, rather whether it's more hybrid, or
just more purely remote is a question but you you're sitting
a lot of employees. I'm seeing a lot of them use.
A lot of the companies, say, their employees are almost
demanding to continue to work with them, often exclusively
remote, and in my mind is to really key factors when you need
to think about when working remotely, I mean there's He sort
of has a lot of advice out there around like, you know, do this,
do that. You know, just sort of Point
advice around techniques you can use, right?
The me, if you think about disability and connectedness is
a lot in that, in terms, in terms of just being able to
think through any problems, you're facing it a bespoke way.
So visibility of the work, right?
Visibility of the person and then connectedness to the work
connectedness to the people around you.
Those are the ways that I think about remote work because it's
harder to be visible. When you're working remotely, it
is harder to be connected and the visibility of the work bit.
We talked a lot about that in project management, particularly
agile, project management, making the work visible, you
know, whether it's the kind of design thinking stuff that we
were talking about earlier, tal, right?
Or it's a kanban board, a backlog of the work.
This is all the stuff we need to do.
And who's going to do it? You know, making sure everybody
has a common view of that. So you're not constantly
creating before reading and Having unnecessary, Zoom
meetings, that everybody's bored at, you know, you just sort of
common reference points and making the work visible.
And that's important. The connectedness piece is
really interesting. We've been working with this
Harvard. Professor, is name is James
King, okay? And he talks about like what it
means to be connected, right? And he's got three factors.
When he thinks of connectedness, he thinks I'm thinking about how
connected I am to you, Benny, you know, I think.
Do you make my life easier? Mmm.
Do you make my life better, right?
Right. Or do you make my life safer,
right? And so we get caught up in like
techniques around say you know psychological safety is a Hot
Topic these days you know across the board you know everybody
psychological safety that map's break back to do I make you feel
safer. Right.
You know as an employee or as a co-worker you think about you
know, better you think about the easier.
There's there's our there's a really interesting lenses to
look at your relationships through.
You know, in my MRI doing that for you or you doing that, for
me, that's going to increase or decrease our level of
connectedness. So so and then you think about
the same thing with a work, right?
Right? Do I feel safe doing this work
and I feel safe enough to take the chances that I need to take
with the team. Do it, you feel safe enough to
really to get instead of the team can get the most out of me.
You know, what I can contribute do I feel that level of safety,
you know, and is this easier easier?
Ting. Do I feel like I'm not on a
bunch of wasted time, sort of Zoom meeting that kind of thing,
is it easier for me to make an impact?
You know, that kind of thing. And then the better part is
really interesting too is what we're doing in alignment with my
career goals. You know, when we were
successful, am I successful personally in my building
towards something I can put on my resume and my aligned in that
way. So do all of my discretionary
I'm motivated to commit my discretionary time to this.
Because I know it's good for me, it's good for you.
It's good for all of us and we're all driving towards
something. That's, that's a win-win for
everybody involved. So I think again, what do you
think about remote work? Visibility and connected is so
huge. And the two lenses you can use
to think they're just about any problem.
You have with measurement work. It's really interesting to think
about it in there, you know? Yeah.
And it's active safety. I think it did actually extends
into conversations about trust architectures as well.
You can take this back to kind of Stephen Covey conversations
about trust, yeah, being the relationship connection and then
the credibility are confident that you can deliver on the
promise in a space. That goes into it as well.
You know what, I think and I'm seeing in and I'm sure there's
early data to start to look at this.
I wonder about the future of work as we work through Cycles,
right? Yeah so we're all addressing how
we work based on having a long experience of working in a
physical concrete way. And so we are all in our first
kind of cycle or two for most people of being remote.
Now, you know we've talked about having remote teams around the
globe and if you've worked in global space, that was a natural
Part of Your World, right? But so many people didn't have
that experience. So now we move to a space where
we're going to have a new generation that comes in.
We started seeing people wanting to get back in person,
especially with design and collaboration of innovation.
Think so much of it had in person.
Human connectedness. We're starting to get bubbles
of. I like to get a team back.
Oh, David example, we just did a fully hybrid conference in which
we didn't Prejudice either side in person, or, or remotely to
streaming, and going in, and we had almost equal participation.
And they were all the right reasons why people love the
streaming version and then they were all the right reasons why
people wanted to gather together.
And we found these fun spots that were in between where You
know, by doing this remote streaming, we had folks, who
could attend in person and we've all been there on conferences
where you have to go take another meeting in between, and
you have to leave the conference.
But with our streaming setup, right?
I had several people come to me and go.
I was able to keep Pace with the conference while I did my other
work. Okay, then jump back in and it
was, you know, we took a crack and say, wow we've created these
three spaces of experience. And I from that point, I can't
see going back to a space. That doesn't have each of those
moments but I just wonder, you know, what do we look like five
years from now? If there's a desire of folks to
actually have more time together and what does that physically?
What does that look like for us? Yeah.
And hopefully there's
environments that allow us to do the right thing, right?
Work the right way, what the way that's most effective most
enjoyable you know because I think sometimes sometimes that's
the driver you know, actually right.
You know, we all said, you know, maybe we're all going to, you
know, we have this assumption, we're all going to come back to
the office at some point and then people started telling us,
no, you know what, I want to go out to restaurants with my
friends, but I don't necessarily want to go back to the office.
Right. Right.
And I think people that were
really are really excited. That what they're doing and they
have the space to do it in their lives.
Maybe want to get back together like with your conference,
right? Maybe that that half the people
that came. They came because they were
going to have a fun time with people that they like right, you
know, maybe some of the people that didn't maybe just didn't
have that personal space, you know, to make in their lives and
they had to, it's a lot easier just to tune in remotely as I
can, you know? Or maybe alongside other work
like you were saying, you know, I could be composing an email
while I'm listening to, you know.
No gems of wisdom from Betty Johnson and you know, and that's
great, right? Because they're still getting
something out of the conference and still participating in their
own way. We've seen several of the
leading design organizations, use this time to radically
rethink their centers of excellence, but design spaces,
but, you know, they're still triggered on people coming in
and I'm just excited to see how that unfolds through those
organizations, who are kind of taking a lead or taking that
small bet to maybe it's not everyday, but we have a reason
to bring people together. And then have them go for that
moment and do things that other locations and come back.
Yeah, I think it's wonderful. When we were just starting our
Wicked problem, solving tool kit, which is our design
thinking toolkit we actually pivoted, we have physical, like,
cards, you would use in person to help people with their
techniques. But then we pivoted to Miro
boards, there's mirror and there's murals, you have this is
sort of not versions of white boards and you know we've got we
developed templates in those to allow people.
Opal to, to do the same exercises virtually an early on
in the, in the, in the covid crisis.
There was, there was a lot of sort of hesitancy there.
And people did really didn't understand how to use the, you
know, mural board appropriately and that sort of thing and over
time it's become far more popular than the physical Medium
as well. So I think I think people have
learned how to collaborate online.
They've learned how to design if you will online in ways that
they wouldn't have been able to Four years ago we're in that
cycle. Like you were saying in a deep
enough into the cycle to be a little more mature around remote
work, you know. So people are getting used to
that kind of thing. And we've seen some platforms
are using some platforms in Latin America.
A couple of them, the names Escape me at the moment where
it's an online conferencing platform.
And you, and I and three other people might be sitting at a
table watching the programming, you know, participating the
programming, as we will be able to talk.
To each other within our little group versus everybody being
broadcast to and broadcast back. So there's there's different
models, you leveraging, the technology now that you can
apply. And again, I think it's all
about, you know, finding the right model for the situation
for you for the people involved. So everybody can work
effectively. I think it's a really great way
to think about it and kind of continually iterating the way
the way we work. And those those kind of
Investments and trade-offs that we make right since because the
other pieces What may work for me today and they need something
different tomorrow. Right?
Right. Absolutely having that ability,
we talked about this with resources that time that we will
build resources in advance. You may not need it today as a
designer or project manager, but we're building it because we can
see this Arc that you're going on.
You're probably going to need it tomorrow.
Yeah, we've done that. With a lot of our business start
materials as well. We've seen that 80% of designers
will eventually start their own business.
So whether you're thinking about it today or not, you know, we've
created resources Isis. So that when you do decide to
start your business, we've already been thinking about it
for you, that's very cool and just diving into the
entrepreneurial kind of stuff is good for your career.
No matter what. You know it was you to think in
a more business-minded way and think about the way you develop
products or design things or design products in a different
way entirely. So that we're sure everybody.
I was going to ask you about that because you've always been
been entrepreneurial and so this kind of a part of the secret
super powers even when working in other organizations, you
know? Little bit about about you know
with it entrepreneurial stance has meant for you.
Yeah I think it's important to always have a growth mindset.
You know. It's important to always say,
again, just kind of really focus on what is most meaningful for
you for the organization. Something that matters here.
We talk about building products that matter internal 2 p.m.
I the division that I'm lead is about strategy and strategic
alliances corporate development like Ma and that sort of thing.
And Innovation, so roughly All Things New within PMI.
Why? So we think about it from a
strategy perspective, you know what are the gaps in our product
portfolio and we also think you know, like you're saying you
look to the Future and think what is the future going to look
like what are project managers going to need in the future and
drive, everything from that perspective.
You know what, what you're finding out from your audience
minutes and minute in terms of what they need now?
And then sort of anticipate what they might need in the future
and test. All those things repeatedly in a
way that really helps you get to the right answer because your
Dancers never the right one you know it's always about driving
towards that better and better answer never getting to
Perfection but trying to get a better one and even if you have
the perfect one, you know, at some point in time, it's not
going to be the perfect one tomorrow.
You know, it's great. That kind of that Innovation
renovation and Revolution all at once.
Yeah, yeah. You know, we often, you know, we
have a listeners who come in on our podcast and a lot of
students are lidar meet career. People who are changing thinking
about it, how often asked this question?
You know, what, career advice, what things would you recommend
that people study? Or hold onto?
Is they start to craft a profession that's in project
management design project management are just managing in
the future? Yeah, you know, I talked a
little bit about or towel triangle earlier and I talked
about this trip, different angles.
So sort of understanding ways of working is understanding how our
skills are acquiring power skills, so that you can
influence people. And then there's the business
Acumen side of things, the power skills, bit, The Village,
whatever, whatever. You know, please show you what
to apply their. A lot of these things are very
true, you know, you can drive things forward, but a better
with the team. So I would understand how to
work with people how to lead and I would be a student of people
at the same time. You know you can be assumed if
you're disciplined but I think really understanding people as
human beings understanding what drives them understanding how
you can align Them ineffective ways is hugely important and
undervalued, you know, I think it's sort of the glue that
brings us all together and makes us work together.
More effectively is understanding each other better.
So, I would understand your discipline.
I would understand how to work with people and understand
people themselves. That would be my advice anyway
for what it's worth. Well, Dave, I can't think of a
better way to close our conversation, that was powerful
and poetic and right on point. At the future and growth and
career is all about you and people and your relationships in
there. Yeah.
Well thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it. I thank you for being a part of
it and just, you know, your presence and your leadership and
thinking about how we use our disciplines to change the world
around us. So today I would like to thank
Dave Garrett Chief strategy and growth officer of the project
management Institute, and giving us his career.
Earth from volunteer leader, within the organization to Chief
strategy, officer to helping to build a more Dynamic and
impactful and effective world around us.
Thank you, Dave. I appreciate you.
Thanks so much. We invite you to join us.
Next time, we will continue to look at the world around us and
how a design impacts today and tomorrow, thank you, show notes
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My name is Li Xian zhuang until next time.