What is design design? We know has a design problem, a
lot of folks. Don't know what design is.
They don't know who is succeeding.
That looks like them. They don't know the salary
levels, right? And they also don't know where
to start, right? So what I would love for Mom and
Dad, I want to be a designer to do is to address all of those
meaning. Here's what design is.
Here's how design shows up in your life.
The Netflix app Etc. Dora.
Here are POC that look like you and have come from a similar
background as you. The reader that are thriving in
the industry. Hello, and welcome to design,
adjacent the podcast that talks about the Nexus of design both
today. And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben
EF Johnson. We all know that the price of
education is expensive but yet the true cost of education is
about It's often our entry point to our profession, to a better
life to a way of fulfilling our dreams, providing for our
family, and our self in creating identity, education is
increasingly valuable. But there's a challenge I'm
excited to share with you. Our guest today is Rakesh Gupta.
He is the founder of the useful School.
The world's first pay, what you can online design school?
Principally for people of color. Yes, a pay which you can Online
School of Design. Ra T specializes in product
design and product development, branding typography and growth
analytics and he's collaborated and worked with many leading
agencies and companies over his career.
And his work about useful school has been featured in adweek, our
very own aiga, I own design wallpaper prank brand-new and
several other loop industry magazines.
He's been a volunteer for where the black designers and he
served in senior director of product Venture roles at various
companies. So today, I'd like to Welcome to
our podcast none other than 40 script.
Thank you for joining me. Kisser.
Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here.
It's incredible. And maybe first connect it.
When you were sharing, I have this idea and I have this
concept with the useful school and its really hit a positive
note, like it's a really hard even describe the way, the
Outpouring has been for this note of, how do we create a
space that re-envisioned design, education?
And, you know, in thinking about this and you tackle so many
things with it, the content what's being taught the mode in
which the way it's being taught and the price barrier, what
really brought you to this idea. So when I was researching, this
idea, just broad Strokes, all right.
I came across Ross, the aiga Google census data, that was
published a few years ago. And at the time, the website
allowed me to download the Excel file and actually look through
the research myself and what I noticed after looking at the
data and creating my own reports based on that using pivot
tables, and all these vlookups and all these, like random
things that I learned being an economics, major.
I found that there was really interesting data around the
struggles that POC are having right.
I noticed that there was a sharp, distinct lack of POC that
were entering the industry. And I also noticed that there is
a high degree of POC compared to non POC leaving the industry,
once they actually get into it. Mmm.
And with that data I presented it I presented it at the brand
new conference It's in Las Vegas in 2019, which was part of me
presenting a Rebrand that I worked on and I was nervous.
I was nervous about sharing that data because typically at
conferences, you hear all the good things, here's Anna.
Great thing that I worked on and let's talk about how I got to
it. But typically, you don't hear
about issues challenges and ways to solve these types.
Oops of deep-seated problems at conferences.
So I was very nervous to present it.
When I presented the work, I felt a huge weight off my
shoulder and I felt good about it.
I felt good about sharing this data.
I felt good about supporting folks that needed to be
supported and it was really validated right afterwards.
A person by the name of forced Young, Who at the time, was the
chief creative officer of wool. Is he came up to me after the
speech and said, you know what, I loved what you said, but I'm
going to make. I have a challenge for you.
Do something about it. I would love for you to figure
out a way to address some of the issues that you mentioned.
And I said, you know what Forest, you got it look out for
an email from me in the next month or two with a full
business plan. And in addition to that
validation, I also so felt my own struggles kind of come out.
I felt the truth of the fact that my parents didn't allow me
to do a design major. I felt also other people after
my speech they came up to me both POC and non POC came out to
music. Thank you so much for sharing
this info, what's on your mind? Like, how can I help?
And so all of these factors both my personal experiences as well
as validation from others, on all different, kind of levels
within the industry. Both beginners.
And super, super Advanced experts like Forest they really
encouraged me to pursue something like this.
What was the moment that she realized that useful school
would be that answer you doing something about it.
You know to go to go from the presentation to go first seeing
the data right? And we have that mode of inside
and then presenting it and then moving from this challenge for
Is he's a good friend of AIG are former board member and good
friend. See Chris, the challenge out
there, which I can hear it in his voice.
What to do about it, when do you turn that corner?
And you realize that useful school is the answer.
So, there's two moments where I realized that this thing is
real. I put together a business model,
I used a template, very well-known template, the
business model canvas, which forced me to think about
Revenue. Forced me to think about the
population forced me to think about the various activities.
I needed to take to actually make this thing a real thing
when I started. Floating that around to various
folks. I was very encouraged by, by the
feedback, right? The second moment.
And this was probably the one that really, really started
feeling really real is when I actually announced on LinkedIn.
So I now stand LinkedIn in early December.
Honestly not having everything figured out, right?
I didn't necessarily have all my ducks in a row, but I said I put
it on myself to say, you know what, early December or bust.
Just like, put something out there and let's figure it out.
So what I did was Over the many months preceding that I built
out. The landing page.
I started thinking about The Branding.
I started being like, Oh, how cool would it be to use only
fonts from POC? Then I dug for hundreds of
hours, finding POC type designers, okay.
And I started learning about how I can bring the stories of the
various type designers and their background into the brand.
I started thinking about what the brain should be just in
general. I started thinking about who the
partners I should bring a board. And all of that.
And that's when it felt really real.
When I announced it on LinkedIn, I put myself out there.
I put the idea out in the world. I threw that energy on the
world. And within the first 24 hours,
we essentially filled our first cohort.
Now, we kept the application open right through early January
for this first cohort. But that's when it felt really
real, when I saw an outpouring of support on the comments likes
and shares when kind of viral on LinkedIn and then also got a
really amazing set of soon-to-be.
And current designers as part of the first class, that's when it
felt really, really beautiful. I saw the outpouring within the
spreadsheet application of they're filling out the
spreadsheet that I was looking at on the backend.
How other institutions have failed them, why useful school
is perfect for them. The fact that a lack of a price
barrier is now allowing them to pursue design in an exciting
way. All of these types of things
made. It feel really real, what was
the most surprising thing for you?
You launch right? Step out.
And decide you're going to launch the program.
When you looked at the response of those coming in, especially
new entrance. What surprised you in terms of
their receptivity to the program?
There's a good number of things, that surprised me.
I would say, number one, is how powerful sharing ideas is
without having everything figured out.
I found that a lot of POC, have a Occult time putting themselves
out there, even if their work isn't completely finished or
isn't quote-unquote, perfect. Whatever that term means, and I
was very surprised by the outpouring of support from the
students even though not everything was completely
visible. Meaning we did not publicly
share who the secret guest would be like we did not have a full
on landing page that outlined in very, very detail.
Like, what they could look forward to.
We had like, very cute Deliverables, that they would be
getting. We had very key lessons that
they would learn. But besides that we had we kept
a lot of, a lot of it, kind of shrouded in mystery on purpose,
okay. And the second thing that
surprised me was that a lot of would be designers and current
designers who want to get promoted are hyper aware.
I knew that that was the case but to see it actually in like
words in the in their applications was something that
I would do. Not expect.
Okay? So for example, what we're
asking applicants to submit is not only their work and and
answering a bunch of questions. But one question specifically is
okay, out of the curriculum that you've seen on our website?
What are additional things that you want to learn?
And so literally, I'm using the product design and user process
user research process to actually Prove the product
itself and typically students don't have that relationship
with an online education platform, much less a university
where they actually actively feel part of the actual building
of the thing rather than just being handed a syllabus.
And that's what you're going to learn like Vera, an active
participant, their actual things that they're learning and that
was a really surprising thing to me to actually put myself out
there and say you know what? We don't have everything figured
out, help us figure it. Out was a super empowering thing
for both the students, as well as the speakers as well as
myself. So, as you work through, I think
you're about eight or so weeks through on this.
This first cohort they should come through, are you seeing any
similarities between the new entrant cohort and the advanced
cohort who seeing any similarities in the stories and
experience? Yes, and no.
Okay, so the beginner students are looking to get their first
Product design or product design adjacent roll, right?
The advanced students are all mid-level to senior level
product designers looking to get promoted.
Okay, looking to get a raise. So the fact that all the
students are POC allows for a lot of similar conversations to
happen, just being a POC, whether you're the only pure C
or one of only a few at organizations.
Those conversations are similar. But the experience is
specifically that Dinner students are having versus
Advanced students are having often times are pretty
dissimilar. So, for example, a student last
week actually wanted to spend some time during the class to
talk about an issue that they were having with a white
engineer, who had more power in terms of corporate hierarchy
than them. And they wanted to talk through
how they handle the situation, what the situation was and
gather feedback. From the rest of the crew within
the class as well as me and the guest speakers to figure out
what are additional things they could have done to address the
problem. These types of experiences are
really important to talk about especially for advanced
designers because number one, it's very helpful.
But number two, is it takes what Harvard Business School and all
these other places do where they do like a quote-unquote case
study. But instead of just Talking
about a case study as just like this ephemeral thing that
doesn't necessarily apply to your real life.
We're talking about real life issues that POC are having
Contrary. We're talking about beginner
students, they are looking to really refine their craft and
learn figma and like learn how to present their portfolios in a
very confident way. And yes, confidence lack of
confidence or wanting to build. Confidence is a string that I
see that's similar across both beginner students at Advanced
students. But it shows up and the types of
conversations that we have our handles very differently, right?
So, are you seeing in terms of organizational maturity?
Are you seeing that your that folks are new to the
professional space or just new to the practice of design?
Yes, and yes. Okay, so they are new in both of
those ways. There are some folks who have
been business designers wear or have or studying graphic design
or have never really thought about themselves as product
designers just generally and they want to, they want to
explore a product design path. And then there's a good number
of them who have explored a product design pass, but they
reached or hit some sort of wall and this wall could be related
to lack of mentorship, right? This wall could be lack of, not
necessarily knowing what is the right thing to do and how to no
one what it's right, what's right?
And what's wrong Also, and this is like why this is very
important for me to do live classes or at least start with
live classes. Is a lot of folks, really need a
live experience often times, especially curricula that is
self-paced. Often times those appeal to
folks that are already pretty motivated and are not
neurodivergent or experience a lack of confidence.
These are folks that are typically from based on various
research Self-paced classes, where you could like, watch a
set of videos or watch a set, a read a set of material is
typically more helpful to folks within that kind of population
and the live context is really important.
So not only are we kind of embracing and being able to talk
about issues that we're having, but they also get a really
strong sense and Vibe. Right of being able to work
together, provide life feedback to each other.
Do literally things that they're going to have to do on a
day-to-day basis. Provide feedback here feedback
provide helpful resources, other people, etc, etc.
It's really interesting and I wanted us to spend some time it
kind of thinking of how you've layered this program and
approach and you have these parallel paths that are really
taking people from the spaces reinforcing professional craf,
why you're designing in what way you are building your ability to
present, your ideas, defend your ideas and share and Space.
And it's really powerful. And of the first moment, I'm
going to summons a little bit of our friend forest and ask you
for your next challenge. So now that you've built this
base, the foundation for the useful school.
What next? I know this speaks to some of
the data you understood but what's next?
So, I do want to say radical changes require radical changes,
right? And within what the future
holds, I would like to think Have listeners think about that.
Statement, radical change require requires radical
changes. There are a few things that I'm
looking to do. That are particular.
Exciting number one is, I am looking to build an online
resource. That is Catered towards high
schoolers or those of a high school age as well as their
financial supporters who typically are parents and I'm
looking to create an online resource called Mom and Dad, I
want to be a designer, okay? And what this online tool is is
it's essentially a brochure for the design industry.
It helps both students like would be designers as well as
their parents understand number one, what is design?
Design? We know has a design problem, a
lot of folks, don't know what design is.
They don't know who is succeeding.
That looks like them. They don't know the salary
levels, right? And they also don't know where
Start right. So what I would love for Mom and
Dad, I want to be a designer to do is to address all of those
meaning. Here's what design is.
Here's how design shows up in your life.
The Netflix app, etc. Etc.
Here are POC that look like you and have come from a similar
background as you. The reader that are thriving in
the industry. Number three is looking at here
are the different types of design.
And based on your personality background etc, etc, where you
might fit in best. And then also looking at
salaries, let's talk about the fact that designers can within a
few years actually make a six figure income, right?
And let's, let's put that on the table.
Let's make that more transparent.
And then the, lastly is where do I start?
All right. Well, you can learn useful
school, you can learn at etc, etc.
So, I'm really excited to launch this website resource.
End of the year. I think this is going to be
something that's going to be incredibly helpful useful to use
the brand language, right? Right.
Yes, we incredibly useful to helping really shift our
paradigms and how we think about the work, how we think about
working with populations that need it.
And oftentimes those are populations who know nothing
about design, or who have never considered design.
There are other things that I'm looking to do that.
I'm incredibly excited about. I've heard a lot of folks.
Want to be part of useful school, they're totally
qualified it makes so much sense for them.
But due to the live model that we've created, they're looking
to actually embrace some of the footage and have that on their
own time. So what I'm looking to do is
create some sort of pay, what you can Master Class Style,
video series for folks, who are not able to take the class live,
but have time, where they Actually, after watching the
material congregate, with other students who are doing something
similar to keep everyone held accountable.
So this is kind of a blend between self-paced and the live
curriculum that I'm incredibly excited about and this is going
to help, not only grow the, the user base, and the students and
grow sponsorships and everything across, really the world's
because right now, we're really only super serving the United
States, but this will allowed grow a global footprint and also
start to think about what other classes I want to offer.
So given these models in this Monumental shift that we're
seeing with, in online education, I am really excited
about exploring other classes. So I'm happy to announce that we
are going to be launching branding classes.
We also have hundreds applicants to take a financial Wellness
class, okay? And I'm also particularly
interested in doing other lifestyle classes, like pay when
you can cooking class where, based on your income level are
based on, like the money that you have in your Hawk in your
bank account. What recipes are good for you?
Based on your time based on all these things?
Like I'm really excited about like starting to think about all
these other ways to utilize the model that's being proven to
work. And I'm really excited to also
announce that the class isn't even done.
Just like you said, we already have one student Victor, who got
a 17 percent salary increase. We also have Tameka Henry who
just landed their First Progress.
I enroll full-time at Spotify. We have students who are already
thriving and they are taking some of the curriculum and
utilizing. It being empowered to use
utilize in their own, in their own means, and they're
absolutely killing it. So, I'm really excited to just
continue to help support the students in ways that are that
are meant for them. That means continue to do
product design classes. But really exploring everything
else that I just mentioned. It's really refreshing and
really exciting. I'm going to go I could be to
one of the first things you talked about suggest offer our
support in there. The idea of exposing the
opportunity of design as a profession, to students and to
the parents and space in, there is something that's near and
dear to me but also to us at aiga.
So would love to be able to partner with you on that with
our new extended research that we're doing our design POV.
We're actually been asking some of those questions and pulling
data in there on what the salary looks like.
What is career arcs where there are some of the spaces and
highwomen? Highlighting people of color in
this space is to be a nice support of what you're, what
you're doing and thinking about there.
So, I wanted to make sure that you knew you have my support
there as well. Really interesting to think
about, you know, as you've built this out, any kind of filling in
the knee, it has been kind of centered to kind of East Coast
time zone us, but seeing that the need becomes broader and a
we see about 15 to 20 percent of our virtual programming, our
students from all across the globe, we're coming in, who may
not be isolated. It in one space they may be out
of the US, the week. Number one inside the u.s. week,
number three, and back and forth.
We're seeing a lot of, a lot of movement, do you see
opportunities for multiple cohorts?
If you will to give you some of that same as I know that, you
know, one of the heart of this has been the live experience,
kind of building a community connection.
Could you see there being an East Coast cohort a central Time
cohort, West Coast and so forth. So people can they don't have To
take the choice, they can still get that experience if the mass
is there, you know, if you have enough 100%?
So I do want to give a shout-out to one school, which is part of
the one club for creativity led by Oriole Davis Lions which
helps bring black creators into the advertising industry.
And what they've done is, they've created multiple cohorts
across, multiple locations a West Coast as well as East Coast
etc, etc. I'm looking to definitely
explore that and I also want to Incheon and underlying something
that you said earlier about the pay structure and how the
business model of useful School works because it kind of is
related to to some of the stuff we just talked about, right?
Number one is that it's truly pay what you can.
That means no loans. That means no income share
agreements where you pay zero dollars up front and then you
owe a percentage of your income in the future.
None of that. And the way that has worked for
useless. Cool.
So far is that we are supported by incredible sponsors and
partners. And we also have a good number
of individual monetary like patreon style contributors.
And then, of course, the last way useless coal, generates
monetary capital is from the students themselves.
So what we're having here is not just relying on any given
stakeholder to provide capital We're relying and dissipating,
the resourcing across multiple populations again the companies
individuals who are not able to take the class for whatever
reason and want to contribute as well as the students themselves.
Now, what's interesting about the companies and the
contributors is a lot of them don't necessarily expect
anything in return. The idea that they love the
model and they want to provide more exposure to POC, right?
Is oftentimes more than enough but of course we have other
benefits. Benefits including giving the
sponsors and partners kind of all the portfolios and there's
marketing that we do together. There's curriculum.
Curriculum. That we create together.
There's all these amazing, beautiful things but what I've
heard is one of the top reasons to support is because it's the
right thing to do. And so that's the kind of
rational and emotional Equity within that is something that I
would love to see more educational institutions
embrace. What that I've seen do, because
I see in the applications, is it allows students who are not able
to pay, right? 20 grand 140 granted to, for
University, etcetera, etcetera, to actually think or rethink
about entering design. And so we have a lot of folks
who otherwise would not have gotten into design, right?
To actually take the program and say, you know what, I'm either
not able to pay it all or here is some money based on my salary
that I'm able to afford and have it being empowered.
Power to give and choose the price is something that's
really, really interesting. And I would love for more
solutions to to learn from that and take a learning and take
away from from that if you're listening to consider doing that
whether it's your own organization or another
organization that you think is inequitable monetarily, you
know, you're talking or sitting here trying to pull up, what the
average fee is for an undergraduate education in the
design degree, you know, and there's lots of different ways
to look at that. If it's a pure, Design school
versus a liberal arts college in the spacers that go into it.
When you think about this and kind of a barrier to entry, are
you noticing that those who are coming to usual School?
Are they first or latter generation college students?
I asked that question because, you know, when we talk, I
remember as an undergrad as well, and being a student of
color and wanted to go into architecture and immediately
noticing everyone who is in the class with me was third
generation, not only college, but third generation
architecture. ER, and there was kind of a
generational Gap that was there long with, you know, there
weren't architects who I knew to the left or right of me and my
community, and my background of my family knew.
But you were in a class with students who were kind of been
this abundance of Representative examples.
I'm just wondering if we think about this as the school, the
considerations in your first generation of going into a
college program or discipline. There are some differences in
being a second or third generation, still challenges but
I'm just wondering the composition.
Totally. It is a good mix but a lot of
what we're seeing and a lot of the folks that we took on for
our first cohort are first generation, I citizens or and or
first generation college graduates and we are not talking
here about graduates who have gone to Harvard or RISD or some
like that even though there are a couple of students that are
that are within that, the vast majority of them have gone to if
they have gone to college are Going to some of the more
lesser-known schools and I am excited by the fact that as we
continue to grow that, we are going to be able to work with
populations, that are current college students, as well as
would be college students, as well as folks that are actually
much older. Meaning, I would like more
population to continue applying that our mothers are and they
have to They have to balance and they feel like a four-year.
University is difficult to balance everything that comes
along with being a mother. I'm excited by the fact that our
model can appeal and work around folks to schedule.
And I think the kind of on demand plus meeting, is going to
be a perfect way to kind of address some of the inequities
that we're seeing within the design education, particularly
around being a mother or someone who's a lot older or has some
other instance where that's preventing them from from Doing
it, a design, education in a serious way and, you know, we
often in our conversations will refer to design as being a
passion, right? And something that we're excited
about I'm seeing and to share with you what we're seeing in
the marketplace, over the last two years of the pandemic are
people taking another stock of their professional career.
The professional identity and we're seeing older students.
Come into design because it's what they always wanted to do.
It was the passion that they had, but the passion didn't meet
with the Magnetism of their moment and kind of finding the
way we're useful, school is really helpful in that in this
idea, that here's a pragmatic solution that allows you to
apply to your passion 100%. We've already gotten a few
hundred applicants for our craft design classes and branding
classes, as well as our future products on classes, and the
curriculum is not going to be about creating a piece of work
that has zero implications business-wise.
We're Not looking to really teach art.
We are more right now focused on design, that makes a real impact
in terms of however, you define that.
And I like to say in a lot of POC cultures is that design is
considered a hobby. People don't know that you can
make money in it. People don't know that they can
make impact. And the idea that designers you
start having these industries start to populate with in
Designed, there's even growth, product design, meaning you're
actually working with a team to actually prove that the changes
that you made through a be testing in these various.
Things are increasing the conversion rate, which means
more revenue for the company, Etc.
Like, that's what I did at plate.
Where we just simply changed, copy on one button.
And that improved our sales by three hundred twenty seven
percent, right? And so for a designer to be able
to say, not only am I creating something that looks Awesome.
But I'm also be able to provide for my family being able to
justify a raise because you're part of that increase in sales,
etc. Etc, is something.
I'm really excited to see more folks, consider doing so, not
just considering our, but considering the business of
design and how much impact designers can make.
Now, I spent a lot of time defining impact as monetary
impact, but there's also a lot of impact that you can make in
terms of social well-being, Capital etc, etc.
But that's just one example, I wanted to share.
So in the recent years you've had this capacity to really be
out in front in conversations about industry and education and
how we move forward. I ask this one question because
I know people will come to you for advice.
So I asked you to look back to the college, junior, version of
yourself. And what advice would you give
to someone today? Who is making their way and
looking at career opportunities? What advice would you give I
could go? Go on and on about this.
So, tell me when to shut up. No, to drop them out with my
friend, drop the knife. There are a couple of things
that I would recommend baby route each did right.
Number one, is find a coach. I'm not talking about finding a
mentor that you are just pastors by.
I'm talking about a coach, somebody who will put together a
curriculum for you that will say, Okay, based on the fact
that you want to find a job, In two years and you've just
started your junior year and you have about a year and a half or
two years to go before your full-timer.
We're going to work backwards to get and I'm going to give you
homework. I'm going to give you Milestones
to hit in your design education that most likely, let's be
honest. The College University that that
you're going to is probably not going to teach.
So find a coach and know that there's a difference between
coaching and mentorship coaching.
Actually people who are going to be working with you putting
Together a curriculum that you can that you can actually
Leverage is really important and I also find a coach who is
eventually going to be a sponsor for you?
Find a coach who works, or has worked at a company that you
really love. And once you do what the coach
recommends that you do, you can bet that that person is going to
sponsor you and advocate for you to get hired there because they
seen you work with, they've seen that you've worked with them for
two years. I know what you're capable of.
So you have to find not just a mentor.
You need to find a coach. You need to find a sponsor
number two, in order to figure out what companies or
organizations. You want to be part of after you
graduate, you really have to figure out your own personal
design ethics, you need to figure out your personal story.
You need to work through in your head and be able to articulate
the couple of things that matter to you.
Because when you're presented with multiple job offers, you
want to be able to look back on those principles and Say you
know what, my principles, for example, for a me are related to
social impact and their related to creative opportunity.
And so if there is not a social impact or creative opportunity
Within These two job offers, then I will decline one or
multiple of them. So it's really important to
figure out what kind of work you want to be generating and
creating and working backwards with your coach to figure out
what job opportunities that are out there.
The third thing I would recommend is, It's your favorite
app and redesign it from scratch and figma.
I know that sounds scary but you need to as a designer, you need
to start just getting into the weeds.
Getting your hands dirty. You need to like, pick a nap,
let's say it's Spotify. Netflix, Duolingo whatever it
might be and straight up. Look at the home feed, take some
screenshots on your phone, put those into figma and literally
trace it. Like try to match the typography
The letting the kerning the tracking, on each element, that
will help you start to understand is this a career path
that I really love. Is this something that I really
love doing now, of course, you have to separate you struggling
a little bit because, of course, there's going to be a struggle.
But I love redesigning apps especially when I was younger.
Like I for example, redesigned and built the NPR app as part of
my portfolio. And that's when I really
realized that I love product design.
And then not only do you want to redesign the the app, like
Example, again, Spotify home feed as an example, you then
want to make a small tweak to it.
Meaning you want to like, put a little accoutrement, you're on
to that news feed. So, for example, if there's a
feature that you've always wanted Spotify to have, you
should think about, can you build that on figma?
And guess what, once you make that small tweak, that basically
is the architecture for your case study.
That's basing an architecture for something that you're going
to show employers. Anyways, so you're actually
feeding Two birds with one stone there, you know what I mean?
And then the last thing of course is if be self-aware like
find an educational curriculum. That works for you sponsorship
and coaching might not necessarily work for you.
Sometimes you might need something.
Super, super structured. So find those outlets.
And if you need help finding an outlet, whether it's useful
skill related or not just hit me up a tricky, shit, useful
school. I am more than happy to help you
figure out your personal story and help you and coach you
through exactly what I'm talking.
Not. So I'll say this being of
service serving some purpose, advantageous helpful or being a
good effect. That's the dictionary definition
of useful. Your teeth.
Thank you for joining us today and sharing your Insight, your
passion, the pragmatic way that you've accepted the challenge to
make education better for us. All I appreciate having you here
my brother and appreciate watching and watching you build
and consider us as partners and friends to help you keep moving.
This forward, the work that you're doing is we've talked
about this is in always useful. So thank you for joining me for
this episode of design, adjacent our podcast, where we look at
the Nexus of design both today and tomorrow, thank you for
joining us. Your teach, thank you for being
my guest today. Thank you so much for having me
if you have any questions comments, please email.
Me at Rakesh at useful school.com.
If you'd like to apply or want to become a partner sponsor.
I'm here for you. Thank you show notes for this.
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My name is Li Shan Wang until next time.