1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,520 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,760 Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang, 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,960 Senior Director of Programs and Learning here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,120 professional association for Design. 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,280 Hello everyone, my name is Julia Donatello. 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,440 I am the design, competitions and Event Manager at AIGA. 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,720 Hi everyone, Matt Deforesti, founder and CEO of Lego 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:29,240 Collective and visiting Senior Fellow at ODI Global Animal Skin 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,880 Foundation. And hello everyone, I'm Federica 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Pragapane and I'm an independent Information Designer. 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,280 Thank you both for joining today. 12 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:43,200 We are excited to learn more about your your journey and 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,240 about Lego Collective as well. I know that Lego Collective is a 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,600 research and creative collective on migration, culture and the 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,720 arts, so I'm curious if you can share a little bit of how your 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,800 journey led to you both to work in the intersection of 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,040 migration, culture and arts. OK, let me start. 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:11,440 Since Lago Collective is my brainchild and my fault so I 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,200 might as well explain where he's coming from. 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,480 Lago has been in my head for some time. 21 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,880 It has only existed for the last couple of years. 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,280 It was founded in the fall of 2022. 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,160 I come from a very different background. 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,880 I worked for all my career as a policy expert, researcher, 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,320 analyst, mostly working on public policy, both in 26 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,560 governments, for example, at the Ministry of Finance in Italy, in 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,400 NGOs like Save the Children, and most recently at ODI Global, 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,240 which is a large global affairs think tank. 29 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,960 And I worked on all sorts of different issues in my career. 30 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,920 But since 2015, I focused, I started focusing more and more 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,520 on migration. Migration as a phenomenon, 32 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,600 particularly in relation to people crossing borders globally 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,880 and particularly across so-called the global South or 34 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:03,320 low and middle income countries as well as the trajectories 35 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,800 towards high income countries. And that's when I started to 36 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,360 worry. I started to worry that putting 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,840 so much effort and emphasis and sort of personal commitment to 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,160 research and data and analysis, trying to inform the public 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,720 debate on the reality of migration was just falling on 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,240 their fears. Like was it was just not 41 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,560 working? There was something that it 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,480 wasn't cutting through. Not only that, I actually 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,200 started to feel that it was beginning to hurt that it was, 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,480 you know, that every time there was a statistics or a very 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,760 compelling story about the realities of people on the move. 46 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,600 That very quickly turned into, you know, played into the hands 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,200 of the very well known toxic narrative that we see playing, 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,080 particularly during the electoral campaigns on our 49 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,720 media. As I was worrying and and also 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,600 thinking that the whole so-called infrastructure of the 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,560 international community that rests on this idea that there is 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,520 a rich global North and a poor global South, and trying to 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,080 interpret the movement of people mainly through this lens, 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,320 through those who need those who need protection and frankly 55 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:12,280 taking away agencies from these people. 56 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,880 COVID struck, and the story of the absolutely essential role of 57 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,120 migrant workers in our economies and societies became 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,280 increasingly well known. But in the very early stages of 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:31,200 the pandemic, in the spring of 2020, I started to collect data 60 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,960 and stories about the contribution of migrant workers 61 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,480 to the COVID response. And I had this instinct, really 62 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,840 this intuition that rather than trying to write a report about 63 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,800 it or try to, you know, to use my traditional toolbox of a 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,240 research and analysts to tell the story, the time had come to 65 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,080 try to do something different. And that's when Fidrika comes 66 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,560 into the scene, because that's when I contacted Fidrika and 67 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,720 said I got some data and a story to tell. 68 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,360 What do you think? And so let me maybe ask Federica 69 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,560 to take it from there in terms of how we got to where we are 70 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:08,360 today. Yeah. 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,760 So as I was mentioning, I'm an independent information 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,520 designer. I've been working in this field 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:21,519 since 2012, as a freelancer since 2015, and I I've always 74 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:23,800 had the passion of using my tools of using data 75 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,680 visualization and visual languages. 76 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,000 The visual languages that I use that are often also experimental 77 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,040 to talk about topics I care about. 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,160 One of my one of the first The first time I talked about 79 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,680 migration through data visualization was in 2016. 80 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,600 It was my first year as a freelancer and I I decided that 81 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,280 I wanted to use my competencies to talk about migration and 82 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:50,680 especially to talk about the journeys of asylum seekers. 83 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,720 I live in Italy and I was very frustrated about the discourse 84 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,640 around migration, about There is a lot of focus on the 85 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,680 Mediterranean Sea route in Italy. 86 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,800 There was the city's understandably so, because it's 87 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,960 very dangerous, but before that part there are often thousands 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,520 of kilometres spent travelling, hundreds of days spent 89 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,480 travelling. And I really wanted to tell 90 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,400 these stories using directly the the bosses of the people who 91 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,280 were doing such travellings and we were living such experiences. 92 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,120 So in that here I went in a welcoming centre in Italy and I 93 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,760 proposed to some of the people hosted there to, to create a 94 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,920 project to work on a project able to tell their stories and 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,560 their journeys through data visualization. 96 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,200 The project is called The Stories Behind the Line. 97 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:43,360 It's an old 1A relatively old one, but it's still one of the 98 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,080 projects I'm most fond of. And it's a vision narrative of 99 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,800 their journeys. And so this is the first, that 100 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,480 was the first time I used data visualization to talk about 101 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,600 migration. I did it other times before 102 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,960 working with Martha. And then in 2020, Martha and I 103 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,560 was just following each other on Twitter at the time, something 104 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,240 like that. And I remember that I received a 105 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,200 direct message in which she just told me as, as she mentioned, I 106 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,040 have this data. I would like to tell a story. 107 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,200 It was March 2020, March, April 2020, something like that. 108 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,040 And I immediately accepted because Air Story was a story I 109 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,080 wanted to contribute in telling. So that's how we met and we 110 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,760 worked together on this project that it's called Key Workers. 111 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:30,960 I could design it in collaboration with Alex 112 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,920 Caccintini. He's a designer and developer 113 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,960 and we use this project to, to bring these stories of 114 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,480 contribution to life. We designed these trees, one for 115 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,400 geographical area, because the, the, the research that Marta and 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,200 the ODI team were doing was collecting the stories of 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,480 migrant essential workers contribution. 118 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:56,720 And they had this very rich data set full of stories grouped by 119 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,600 continent and by sectors. And we created these trees, one 120 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,560 for each world region in which all the branches are the sectors 121 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,120 and all the fruits are stories of contributions. 122 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,200 And it's a project in which the users can just lose themselves 123 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,240 clicking on the different branches, clicking on the 124 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,280 different fruits. We didn't want to prove 125 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,560 necessarily a point to say, I don't know, in North in Africa, 126 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,000 there is this number of stories. We just wanted people to read 127 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,360 these stories in no specific order. 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,360 And that's what the the project does. 129 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,360 And something that it's very important, I think for both of 130 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,000 us is that it was periodically updated for years actually. 131 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,320 I mean, it's something that we kept on working on for, for for 132 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,080 a lot of time. And it was just the beginning of 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,080 my creation with with Matt. Well, thank you, Marta and 134 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,560 Federica for giving us some of the context and previewing a bit 135 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,240 of your work. For our listeners who are 136 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,360 listening in audio podcast form, we are now doing video for this 137 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,240 podcast as well, so we'll be able to show some examples of 138 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,400 the work. You can check it out at the AIGA 139 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,560 Design Channel on YouTube. But I wanted to connect now to 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,040 our conversation to the theme of the podcast this season, which 141 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,240 is design and performance. And we see your work is really 142 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,520 intertwined with this topic of performance in all of the 143 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,480 different definitions of all the different meanings of this word 144 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,640 performance. So could you share a little bit 145 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,400 about how you perceive the role of performance as you navigate 146 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,720 this practice of data visualization and storytelling 147 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640 around migration? Let me actually connect what you 148 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,280 just said about performance to picking up the story that 149 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,080 Federica and I have just been telling. 150 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:41,120 Because of course, we, we, we came to the spring of 2020. 151 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,159 And as I said, Lago was really only born in 2022. 152 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:48,280 But the performance is key to what happens next in this story, 153 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,640 because what I learned as as a researcher, really working with 154 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,880 a designer like Federica was precisely the power of design to 155 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,160 produce knowledge, not just to represent the data, not just to 156 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,160 do beautiful images and signs, but to effectively take the 157 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,400 data, which is raw material, right, And weave into that raw 158 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,840 material a story and imagery of vocabulary, actually words and 159 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,240 visual words away for the recapose them that I was 160 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,200 personally blown away by by not just by their beauty, but by the 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,960 but their performance as in what they were actually doing to the 162 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,600 story that, you know, just for clarification, in the early 163 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,760 stages of the pandemic, this idea that migrants were valuable 164 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,800 contributors to to the response and to our societies and 165 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,200 economies was actually relatively new. 166 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,960 And actually, if you think about it, it hasn't lived much further 167 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,200 once they, you know, once the emergency past. 168 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,120 The first thing that comes to mind in relation to performance 169 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:53,080 is, is design performing in front of my eyes something very 170 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,640 different to what I'd been used to. 171 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,160 So much so that Fast forward a couple of years and also through 172 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,760 other collaborations and work really around textile and 173 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,080 fashion, I actually thought there is something in this, 174 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,200 right? There is something in this that 175 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,600 is not just a sidekick, is not just a little bit of 176 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,200 communications that goes hand in hand with research. 177 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,160 There is actually a potential to perform more, to perform more, 178 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,400 to create new, you know, to create new work, to create new 179 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,720 ideas, new conversations. And so that's the first thoughts 180 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,240 around performance is almost really expanding the space of 181 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,920 how data knowledge analysis can perform, particularly in the 182 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,800 public discourse and in public narrative. 183 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,640 And the other idea about performance I have it goes to 184 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,440 the very personal it relates to performing and an act of 185 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,200 performance. And that's actually what we do 186 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,680 in Lago. Two weeks ago we were in a 187 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,600 beautiful space here in London at the all other passports 188 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,240 annual event, The beauty of Movement 2024, where effectively 189 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:56,880 we performed Federica myself lenses say reading his poems and 190 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:03,160 Titsianaloci performing a sound. So Lago has become a performing 191 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,480 organization. I'm I'm a dancer, I study 192 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,400 contemporary dance and I relate to performance in that way. 193 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,440 And I am finding immense joy in putting out those performances 194 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,920 for people to to to see and to enjoy and to savor and to relate 195 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,440 to. So it really resonates to the my 196 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,400 old self that was always after hard evidence of what works and 197 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,480 performance from that perspective, as well as to my, I 198 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,600 guess my, you know, my inner self that's relates to rhythm 199 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,680 and dance and performances on stage. 200 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,720 Yeah. And and I think Martin, I never 201 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,320 talked about that, but I also have a similar background, not 202 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:44,240 in dance, but in theatre. I've been doing theatre as, as 203 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,200 an actress and also director, not a professional one, but for 204 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,520 many years. And I think that this part of my 205 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,680 past has a very deep impact on my approach to design because, 206 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:58,280 you know, when you act where you are on a stage, every single 207 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,280 aspect is very important in your relationship with the audience. 208 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,000 The the tone of voice, every single shades. 209 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,000 I mean, I see like I really see the balance in our voices and 210 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,200 gestures and small elements. They have a huge impact on the 211 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,600 relationship with the audience. And I think that there is 212 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,520 something similar to design. I really craft with a lot of 213 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,200 care each single detail of my visualizations. 214 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,160 And I really see them as the visual equivalent of text of 215 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,960 writing, but also of of acting, of speaking. 216 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,680 And for me, designing is really a communication act. 217 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,560 I always want to talk, to speak to someone, to an audience. 218 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:39,560 Then there are different kind of audiences. 219 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,760 Sometimes there are policy makers, but pretty often my 220 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,440 audience are just people who are browsing through a magazine or a 221 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,080 website or basically an exhibition. 222 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,760 And for me, working with care on all the also the aesthetics of 223 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,360 my pieces and not only the contents, aesthetics and 224 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,600 contents for me are equally important. 225 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,280 It's really a way of performing, of telling stories through 226 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,240 through the data, through the contents and then through the 227 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,680 visual representations. Yeah, I wanted to pull out some 228 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:10,600 of the themes that I'm hearing from you both. 229 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,560 And one is just what you were saying now, Federica, about the 230 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:20,000 shared vocabulary and metaphors between information design and 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,480 performance. When we use terms like, you 232 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,440 know, rhythm and repetition and gesture, all of these things 233 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,280 could be performed with our bodies or our instruments, but 234 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,120 also with graphics. And then what Marta was saying 235 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:38,200 earlier about this idea of design adding value as creating 236 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,640 knowledge. And it's not just how you 237 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,960 package the research done by other people and package the 238 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,000 statistics at the end, you know, it's really an integral part of 239 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,040 maybe visualizing, but also surfacing new insights so that 240 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,800 maybe we're lost or kind of under the surface, you know, 241 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,720 when we just have the text or just have the the data. 242 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,200 My follow up question to this is really about how you tackle the 243 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,120 advocacy part of this, because your work is not just to inform 244 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,400 people, but to really advocate for migrants and on the topic of 245 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,120 migration. So how do you measure your 246 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,400 impact or your performance to use the theme? 247 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,440 Like how do you know if a project is successful or what 248 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,720 are ways that you measure that in terms of the feedback loop? 249 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,560 First of all, let me say impact is all I care about, right? 250 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,960 All of this is about making, however small but a significant 251 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,280 difference and meeting some, making some headway. 252 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,640 And it really comes from a place. 253 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,560 And this is the first consideration of not having 254 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,400 impact. You know, there is so much I 255 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,360 actually worked in evaluation for a few years, so even further 256 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,640 removed from anything vaguely creative, but where, you know, 257 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,280 we get so obsessed about the measurements and the validity 258 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,720 and trying to really have the, you know, really proving that 259 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,720 we're making a difference. And then when we don't, we don't 260 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,400 spend enough time understanding why, right and, and really 261 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,120 building on what we're going to do different next time. 262 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,800 And in a way, the work that I'm doing now with Lago comes from a 263 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,600 place of not having impact. And as I said earlier, of actual 264 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,240 worry about, you know, I could have told the stories about, you 265 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,600 know, both the qualitative stories about the migrants 266 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,800 contribution to COVID or some of this more recent sort of 267 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:19,120 quantitative data around around visa rejections in other ways 268 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,040 until it was blue in the face and or like this and, and yet 269 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,480 making absolutely no difference. Like no, you know, like this 270 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,560 idea that you create knowledge and somebody will see the truth 271 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,240 in a space that is pure fiction. What lies are the the, you know, 272 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:34,920 the currency of the public debate. 273 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,360 You insert the nippets of truth, of analysis, of reasoning, and 274 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,760 they very quickly turned around to other lies and, you know, to 275 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,360 the advantage of whatever dominant narrative. 276 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,480 So, and that's actually to me is a really important so 277 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,760 professionally, and I wrote a little bit about the the 278 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,840 experience of making this changing at a stage in your 279 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,440 career when you've had, you know, you've had some experience 280 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,000 and you can look back. And so I want to I want to state 281 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,280 that this comes from a place of not having much impact and 282 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,120 actually not believing anymore that not just that doing 283 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,320 research and doing evidence on his own, you know, doesn't make 284 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,080 a difference, but also the doing it from a place where you are 285 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,600 observing the world from a standpoint of what we understand 286 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,160 development to be, what we understand wealth and well-being 287 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,840 to be interpreting the experiences of people from 288 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,120 around the globe was falling short of making a difference. 289 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,360 So how does this the work of Lago today make a difference? 290 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,400 What is what is successful? I always picture it in a very 291 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,720 simple, you know, in a very simple, in very simple but at 292 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,320 the same time quite ambitious terms. 293 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,320 I have two teenage kids who are 16 and I think 13. 294 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,520 My eldest daughter Bianca, she will vote in a couple of years 295 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,480 and Luca in a few in a few more years. 296 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:55,760 I picture, you know, a world or a scenario in the local, you 297 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,040 know, in the local voting station, polling station where 298 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Bianca, Luke and their friends will go to vote for the first 299 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,840 time. And what they will have in the 300 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,160 what they will have in their head, the images they will have 301 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,319 in their head, in the sounds they will have in the ears about 302 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,359 who are the people who move and what moving from one place to 303 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,680 another is all about. Is, is, is actually a different 304 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,040 story from the one that dominates our, you know, our, 305 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,920 you know, our understanding and our political campaigns today. 306 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,600 So it is actually the, the impact is to do with the 307 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,000 knowledge, with the understanding and the what is 308 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,720 when, when it is successful is where we create a different 309 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,240 story. Not necessarily a positive 310 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,320 story, mind you, And which is why I actually, I actually don't 311 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,800 see Lago as an organization. It does much advocacy, at least 312 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,440 not in advocacy in the traditional sense that, you 313 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,320 know, in terms of campaigning or public big messages and thinking 314 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,480 about small messages and actually images, words, 315 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,360 vocabularies where we break down the barrier between US and them. 316 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,320 As, you know, ask the people who stay, then the people who move, 317 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,240 which is the first bit of fiction that we alltel each 318 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,360 other because a number of us have moved between places in our 319 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:14,600 lifetime. And so if, if I create stories 320 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,640 and imagery in future generations, who will determine 321 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,080 the outcomes of elections or, you know, the state of the world 322 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,920 in the future that will understand the reality and the 323 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:31,720 movement of people as something beautiful, as something normal, 324 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,000 as something that relates to them as well as to others, then 325 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,080 we I would have made a difference. 326 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,720 And I measured lots of things in my life. 327 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,080 And I'm now trying not to get too obsessed with measuring. 328 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,760 But there are things like, like, for example, the key workers, 329 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,760 key workers won a number of awards and then it got exhibited 330 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,120 at the Vienna in Dundee, at the Design Museum in Scotland Design 331 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,720 Museum as part of their post COVID exhibition. 332 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,800 Now, the fact that this story is being told in a museum is 333 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,360 something I never experienced before. 334 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,200 And so measurement wise, the story is now traveling further 335 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,280 afield to places that others didn't get to. 336 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,520 The work that we've done on visas recently has been covered 337 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,400 and continue to discovered on media all around the world is, 338 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,840 you know, is all over the Nigerian media as we speak. 339 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,200 Again, not something I've experienced before. 340 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,200 So there's something about going further afield and lasting 341 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,560 longer. Federica mentioned earlier about 342 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,520 how key workers was updated for years and remained live over the 343 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,960 years. And you know, the work we do now 344 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,640 on visas has a very similar characteristics of being, you 345 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,240 know, being continuously updated and and expanded. 346 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,840 There is something about the, you know, the shelf life and the 347 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,800 miles that these work travels that to me speaks to impact, 348 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,000 speaks to making a difference. Even though I wouldn't permanent 349 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,920 claim that I have necessarily saved lives or made a huge 350 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,400 difference, but we are getting that. 351 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,840 I remember the first time I I saw the potential in in using 352 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,640 the language of data visualization to to help 353 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,840 knowledge and about around topics I cared about was in 354 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,880 Internet 16 when I posted the stories behind the line project. 355 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,840 That was the project about migrants, asylum seekers, 356 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,200 journeys and that was a project without any Commission. 357 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,480 I didn't have a huge following at the time, not at all. 358 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,840 I was really new in the field of design and data visualization. 359 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,480 I just posted it online without any expectations and I was so 360 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,160 impressed by by how much it was shared and appreciated. 361 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,440 I also was intimidated at the time because I was dealing with 362 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,720 a very dramatic and personal topic and personal stories of 363 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,440 these people through data visualization through a language 364 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,280 that is often perceived as cold. And so I was a little bit scary 365 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,880 that people would have wouldn't have understood my intentions, 366 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,960 but they did. And this really moved me. 367 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,520 And then this helped me in bringing this project, you know, 368 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,280 in a lot of events and conferences, conferences that 369 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,440 sometimes were very technical ones, data utilization 370 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,040 conferences, data conferences, design conferences. 371 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,240 But I really wanted to, to push them a little bit more and to 372 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,960 also talk about not only the technical aspects of data 373 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,920 observation design, but also about the stories discontent. 374 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,160 And I something that really impressed me was for instance, 375 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,600 how people were shocked to discover the length of such 376 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,640 journeys. And so this sense of discovery, 377 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,080 this sense of of knowledge, as Marta was mentioning it was very 378 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,160 important to me. And then during the years I've 379 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,240 been working on project on Commission, such as key workers 380 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,280 and other projects I worked on with Marta, but also again on 381 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,120 side projects about topics that I care about. 382 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,680 I also worked especially on social media. 383 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,840 I started working especially for social media, something that at 384 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,160 first I, I didn't do because I was afraid to be accused of 385 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,880 doing performative activism. But then during the years I I 386 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,840 saw the potential in that part too. 387 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,840 And I have to say that when I work on a on a project about a 388 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,520 topic that I care about, human rights issues, gender issues, 389 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,080 and, and I see people, I see that people will share such 390 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,200 projects because in some way they are project, they are topic 391 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,000 they care about. This is something that is very 392 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,480 important to me. Not only letting people discover 393 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,920 something new, but also knowing that people are using my 394 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,840 projects to to talk about something they care about. 395 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,960 It's an aspect that is very important to me. 396 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Maybe sometimes adding their point of view, their perspective 397 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,320 to something that I have done. This for me is the is the impact 398 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,960 I I I hope to work on. That's so, so deep. 399 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,560 And I'm reflecting on what I heard from you both. 400 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,880 And I think the fact that Martha brought how impressed and 401 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,640 surprised she was on how the impact of her of your guys's 402 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,680 work reached places that you didn't even think before. 403 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,160 It's truly inspiring, I find and very relevant. 404 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,600 And I think Federica, I, I actually perceive data 405 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,840 visualization not as cold as you had mentioned, because I do 406 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,040 think that we need more images and that I believe that this is 407 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,280 an alternative way of expressing data and at times even more 408 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,160 democratic. So of course, the type of data 409 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,720 that you both work with is something that you really need 410 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,000 to read and interpret. So there is not, you know, a 411 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,440 quick look, but especially when we're talking about like we're 412 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,040 leaving the year of attention economy, being able to offer new 413 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,200 ways of sharing data, I, I find it very powerful. 414 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Yeah, thank you. And, and and this is also why I, 415 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,920 I try to work on on visual languages that are not 416 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,920 necessarily the most the ones that are most commonly 417 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,720 associated through the deterioration language. 418 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,640 There is this idea that a scatter plot or a bar chart is 419 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,000 immediately understood by everyone, but there are paper 420 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,960 that demonstrate papers that demonstrate how sometimes people 421 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,920 don't know how to read a the more classical representations 422 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,360 because simply because we are not they, we, we don't learn how 423 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,920 to do it in schools. We learn how to, to write and to 424 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,880 count and to and and to and to read, but not to how to read 425 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,960 graphics. And so I think that I also try 426 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,160 to visually experiment, to provide, to work with shapes 427 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,800 that maybe are not so classic. But in some, in some ways I use 428 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,960 organic shapes, I use soft shapes, shapes that can provide 429 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,520 a sense of familiarity, not familiarity with the language of 430 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,520 determination, but familiarity with what surround us more in 431 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280 general. And it is a way in which I try 432 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,800 to invite people to look at my representations. 433 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,440 Can I actually come back to very quickly on some of the things 434 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560 that Federica said, particularly about social media and the 435 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,360 previous question about impact I because I genuinely think as you 436 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,440 can imagine, this questions about what difference does this 437 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,680 make? Is, is, is recurrent? 438 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,000 And he's also a little bit a challenge that, you know, there 439 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,120 comes to me particularly in trying to explain why I have 440 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,080 created Lago and why I, you know, I think that this new way 441 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,200 of working is, makes you know, it's, it's better or is, is 442 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,600 worthwhile, you know, and the question is always what 443 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,480 different does it make? And often in relation to, well, 444 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,240 OK, you're producing cute things now, right? 445 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,760 You're you're hanging out with cool people, but you know, you 446 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,000 know, Are you sure this makes this makes a difference because 447 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,320 Federica mentions social media and how her sort of following 448 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,040 has changed. I just want to reflect on also 449 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,400 the power of collaborations. So the idea that somebody like 450 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,960 me and Federica start work together and not just once, but 451 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,040 create, you know, you know, a work in collaboration where, you 452 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,000 know, we for the Rica, for example, has designed the visual 453 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,240 identity of Lago and we have ongoing work. 454 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,800 And the fact that we are here together having this 455 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,920 conversation and that we, you know, we influence each other 456 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,800 as, you know, spheres of influence, like we, we enter 457 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,000 into each other spheres of influence. 458 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,040 It's incredibly powerful because we all talk about how beautiful 459 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,960 collaboration is almost for the sake of it. 460 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,960 But, you know, creating connections between worlds and 461 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,400 people and disciplines that normally wouldn't connect 462 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,680 actually amplifies almost immediately creates new spaces 463 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,200 for for engagement. So I mean, I could never reach 464 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,480 the, the people that Federica reaches on social media by 465 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,080 myself. And, and it is through Federica, 466 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,360 through the work, the, the work, as I said, travel further 467 00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:59,360 afield. And the, the people that we have 468 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,600 in the room in, in, in the, in all other passports event two 469 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,000 weeks ago are people that literally wouldn't meet if there 470 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,720 wasn't an opportunity to connect between, let's call it the world 471 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,840 of sort of international, the international community and 472 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,360 public policy and the world's of design and creativity. 473 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,720 So, you know, when we think about impacting difference, we 474 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,640 always think about projects and products and you know, that are 475 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,360 down the line. But I think we we shouldn't 476 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:28,000 underestimate the the potential of having created a space where 477 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,560 people have potential to make a difference, come together and 478 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,120 make more of a difference together. 479 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,640 I'm very curious, I think you, you both brought a bit of how 480 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,160 some of the projects that you have worked with started. 481 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,760 I'm also curious to learn more about the what happens before 482 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,120 the data storytelling is built. So the research aspect of it. 483 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,120 And I know that Federica brought initially the, the story behind 484 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:00,320 the lines example, how the project started, if you can 485 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,520 bring more examples of how other projects started. 486 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,280 So the research aspect of it. And on top of that, I'm also 487 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,680 curious to learn more about I as far as what I have researched of 488 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,200 your projects, it seems that is very quantitative data heavy. 489 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,000 I wonder if you can you also work with qualitative datas and 490 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,680 how how do you choose what's the best method for each project? 491 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,200 I'll, I'll go first. OK. 492 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,160 First of all, a bit like what I said before about advocacy, 493 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,920 partly because this is research has been my, you know, my 494 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,880 national habitat for many years. The first thing that I'm and 495 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,200 then this to me really matters is that I see designers research 496 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,560 as we, you know, I see designers knowledge production. 497 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,400 So in a way the research process does not sort of end when the 498 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,360 design starts is an ongoing is an ongoing process. 499 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,800 And in fact, most of the things that Federica and I have done 500 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,240 together have had that characteristics where they 501 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,400 started with some ideas or indeed some data, but then the, 502 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,520 you know, the, the evolution of the knowledge production and the 503 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,320 data has gone and it hand in hand with the, with the design 504 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,800 process. I think different projects or 505 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,240 different ideas, if initiatives have different origins. 506 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,960 I mentioned, I mean, the the way, for example, the research, 507 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,920 so quote, UN quote happened on key workers because it's hardly, 508 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,000 you know, research and traditional sense was me. 509 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,480 And again, you know, this was it feels like a, you know, a 510 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,240 lifetime ago. But when Twitter was OK and and 511 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,560 worked, it was me putting out a message out there to Twitter 512 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,920 saying I'm interested in stories unfolding about how in different 513 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,600 places in the world, you know, people are adapting and and 514 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,160 responding to creating space for migrant workers to be active 515 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,040 contributors to the emergency response. 516 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,640 This was merely around healthcare and having more 517 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,440 people in in wards, in COVID wards and all of that. 518 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,000 And so that researches links. It was literally a bunch of 519 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,440 links of very obscure articles in a local newspapers somewhere 520 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,000 in Wyoming where, you know, some emergency legislation was passed 521 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,800 to allow asylum seekers who normally, you know, who have a 522 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,120 nursing degree to that, you know, rather than working, say 523 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,520 20 hours a week, they unlock that ban to allow people to work 524 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,320 for longer, for example. So is, I mean, is, is actually 525 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,520 going back to a question about quantitative qualitative was 526 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,720 very qualitative is just stories like literally the equivalent of 527 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,720 cut off. You know, my grandfather would 528 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,520 have, you know, cut it out from from a newspaper. 529 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,640 And so Federica often shows what she received from me from that 530 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,120 work, which is like an excel full of links of stories. 531 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,640 And in fact that never I mean that that became a research in a 532 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,240 traditional way later. So after we did the work with 533 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,200 the data realization and after we started to actually collect 534 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,280 the stories and construct through design our narrative 535 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,480 around the value and contribution of these key 536 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,680 workers. My colleague Claire Kumar here 537 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,880 at ODI afterwards produced a piece of research that went back 538 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,720 looking at what we knew about the role of essential workers in 539 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,760 European economies and how our data visualization became itself 540 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,040 a source of data as a source of stories to be able to do the 541 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,800 research. So that's an interesting example 542 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,920 where, you know, it started with, again, almost like a 543 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280 desire to tell the story rather than doing the research and then 544 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:21,760 LED, led to research. And then a more recent example, 545 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,760 the work that we've done together on visas. 546 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,400 Again, it's not necessarily it doesn't start with research, but 547 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,760 it starts with but you know, the the desire to know more and this 548 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,920 you know, it all started when Leslie Loco was curating the 549 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,480 banal of architecture two years ago, the focus on Africa. 550 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,360 And when she mentioned that the opening press conference that a 551 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,040 couple of her colleagues from Accra could not be there on that 552 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,880 day because the Italian ambassador rejected their visa 553 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,200 application. And that's how I started to 554 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,160 wonder about what was going on with visas of people who people 555 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,560 apply for short term tourist business and tourist visas to to 556 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,640 Europe. And yes, that research is, you 557 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,360 know, then went into more of a quantitative direction, looking 558 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,480 at rejection rates and costs, but is now increasingly turning 559 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,720 to the stories behind not this not dissimilar to the ideal 560 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,400 stories behind the line, the stories behind Teresa's 561 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,080 experiences. And in fact, we have recently 562 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,680 produced a short documentary with Rocco radio in a car that 563 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,240 actually captures the individual stories of some of the DJ 564 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,840 residents. So there is a it's definitely a 565 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120 combination of different kinds of data and research. 566 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:40,320 And in a way, it starts with understanding or actually comes 567 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,600 in Italian were introvert like seeing in between some spaces a 568 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,720 knowledge gap or you know, something that doesn't adapt. 569 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,360 And from the beginning, almost having design as you know, in 570 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,000 the toolbox to to to then create new knowledge about that, that 571 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,360 lack of knowledge and and lack of data. 572 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,240 And on lack of data, I hand over to Federica because she speaks 573 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,760 wonderfully about the absence of data. 574 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:13,400 Yeah, absence of data is like a a frustration that I that I have 575 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,480 because there there is this beautiful book that it's data 576 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,240 feminism. And I think it's essential for 577 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,560 people who want to work in in the data visualization field, in 578 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,120 the data field in general, but not only. 579 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,200 And it's all about the power that stands behind data, the 580 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,880 collection of data. Who is collecting them and for 581 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,280 which reasons? And what are the questions that 582 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,680 we me as a bit data design data, the termination designer, but in 583 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,640 general, we people who work with data, what are the question that 584 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,760 we need to ask ourselves before using a certain amount of a 585 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,200 certain kind of data? And also why there are gaps, why 586 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,760 there are missing data and how can we feel the, the silences 587 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,920 that sometimes stands behind those missing information. 588 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,840 And, and this is something that I try to, to overcome sometimes 589 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,679 by telling personal story story. So there is something that I, I 590 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,880 love doing and I would love to keep on doing. 591 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,639 And this is about the part of research. 592 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,840 Then there is thinking about the research part also in terms of 593 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,400 design and languages. There is a project that we've 594 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,120 done together with, with Martha Paresti and once again with Alex 595 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,000 Trechantini for the eye that it's called Art and Mind. 596 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,199 And I really love this project because of the work we have done 597 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:37,280 on on visual languages. This is a website about public 598 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,320 narratives and attitudes towards refugees and other migrants in 599 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,199 European countries. We visualize data that ODI was 600 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,400 already working on for years. We visualize reports that were 601 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,040 published periodically by by ODI. 602 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,920 The research part behind this project was all about the 603 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,520 languages used to talk about migration. 604 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,160 So with Marta, we had a lot of interesting conversations on how 605 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,160 migration is often perceived, is often displayed through the 606 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,840 metaphors of flows, all these big arrows that are often also 607 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,880 associated with the invasions maps, all the invasion maps, war 608 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,320 maps. And we really wanted to, to 609 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,280 challenge this way of talking about migrations and to find 610 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,520 another visual metaphor completely different from from 611 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,280 these arrows once invasion once. And so we, we created a project 612 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,440 in which the data are visualized through the visual metaphor of 613 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,680 mountains. Because the creation of the 614 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,880 mountains is an inevitable and natural process that is part of 615 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,120 our planet history, such as migration is an an inevitable 616 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,640 and natural process part of our human history. 617 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,160 And the research that we conducted on that, on, on that 618 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,160 design phase was very important because it was really a lot of 619 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,400 research on the languages used, on the metaphors used. 620 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,520 And it is something that I really love working on. 621 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,560 And then with the visa project, we are also working of course 622 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,640 with data analysts. For instance, we are, we have 623 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,600 been collaborating with Automanti Gaza. 624 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,800 Automanti Gaza is a data analyst and we have been working a lot 625 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:24,040 together on the data that were available about visas inequality 626 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,800 also to find the right angle. Because again in data 627 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,840 visualization, in data in data visualization, there are always 628 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,160 choices to be that we have to do for the collection part, for the 629 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,240 selection part and the visualization part. 630 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:41,080 And so we have been working a lot together on the angle that 631 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,480 we wanted to use to to to talk about the issue and the topic. 632 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaking of this project, the heart and minds, I'm curious. 633 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,400 I know I I've seen it and I know that it's based on European 634 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,760 migration data. Do you have plans on on 635 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,680 expanding it to, for example, US migration data? 636 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,960 Is this part of a plan at some point? 637 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,720 The short answer is no. I often get asked the same 638 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,840 questions in relation to visas and not because we don't want 639 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,520 to, but it is because I mean again in you know, it is sort of 640 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,720 the, the expertise a little bit or the space. 641 00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,800 What we worked is very much in, in, you know, in Europe in 642 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,840 relation to the European trends and also particularly my 643 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,840 migration from the, from the neighbouring regions and so from 644 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,600 Africa and Mediterranean region in the Middle East. 645 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,280 We work very closely with colleagues in the US Actually, 646 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,920 the work on Visa was inspired by by a project called Visa Limbo. 647 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,160 There also has a little bit of an element of design that looked 648 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,560 started to monitor the time that it takes for US embassies to 649 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,880 clear visas, which is one of the main issues when it comes to 650 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,000 visas to the US in Europe. We found out, you know, it was 651 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,680 actually more the cost and the rejection rate. 652 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,800 So is, is simply to do with, you know, being realistic. 653 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,480 I mean, I, when I say we don't is that we are, you know, at, at 654 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,000 the moment, we, we're going to focus a little bit on the 655 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,440 certainly from the visa work on, on, on Schengen and, and, and 656 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,800 the UK and on public perception that is as a project is now 657 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,480 finished. But there is sort of ongoing 658 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,520 interest. And again, my colleagues at ODI 659 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,400 who are working mostly on on is actually ODI European Brussels 660 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,520 that covers some of these these issues. 661 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,920 And again, the focus is a little bit on target, particularly with 662 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,200 the new European Commission to try to focus on the future holds 663 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,520 in Europe, giving also, you know, the stability in France 664 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120 and then particularly the the new Commission and post Ukraine 665 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,760 or or not postal Ukraine. So it's it's just a matter of 666 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,600 continuing to focus on areas where we have more expertise, 667 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,320 but we are very much collaborating and in touch with 668 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,320 colleagues and organizations that do similar work in the US. 669 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640 The other issue with the, the date with the public perception 670 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,920 work is that it was relying on most existing surveys carried 671 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,280 out in both, you know, in the European in European countries 672 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,960 and then coupled with in country more specific research and 673 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,520 engagement. And in the US is obviously will 674 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,160 you know, it be a bit challenging for us being based 675 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,720 for us being based here. I'm certainly interested in the 676 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,720 movement of people as a global phenomenon. 677 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,240 And I just have, you know, that there is there is a need and a 678 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:23,320 moment and in fact a real urgency in relation to Africa to 679 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,080 really get Europe to pay more attention given some of the 680 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,880 demographic trends in on both continents. 681 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,000 And so it's something that I, you know, you know, continue to 682 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,920 focus on. But then I said, with plenty of 683 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,640 collaborations across the Atlantic. 684 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,000 I think just to build on Federica, you brought many 685 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:46,200 examples of forms of design that you take into account when you 686 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,560 are building your, your storytelling, your data 687 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,280 storytelling. So you said about the mountains 688 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,960 in order to be more of an alternative way of not only 689 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,800 showing arrows and so on and what that means in invasion maps 690 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,160 and so on. You also brought the inspiration 691 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,040 on Data Families book. I'm wondering if you can also 692 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,560 share some more like where do you go for inspirations when 693 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,840 when you're making the choices? As you said, no it's always a 694 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:14,880 trade off. Like what? 695 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,880 What should I choose in order to to represent the data? 696 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,200 I want the best way. If you can share a little bit 697 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,240 more, how do you search for inspiration? 698 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,160 Where do you go? So first of all, when it's a 699 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,760 project on Commission, like I think that the first question I 700 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,840 ask the clients is how experimental do you want to get? 701 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,280 Do you prefer to stick with classical representations? 702 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,960 And I, I do that, of course, I have nothing against classical 703 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,400 graphics. Or do you want to explore 704 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,760 something different? And this is like my main, this 705 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,640 division, this macro division is my first question. 706 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,920 And then when and if they want to experiment a bit more, I 707 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,120 mean, I have this collection of images that I like. 708 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,200 It's cliche, but nature is a huge inspiration of mine. 709 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,880 I have Pinterest boards. I screenshot everything or save 710 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,520 on every possible social media. Every time I see something that 711 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,360 I'm attracted to, I just screenshot it or save it 712 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,000 somehow. Especially images that are not 713 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,480 part of the data visualization world, but that are part of the 714 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:23,520 nature or art or illustrations. Something that I, I learned to 715 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,840 do was to understand instinctively what are the 716 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,280 shapes, the text of the elements I'm visually attracted to and 717 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,560 how I could use them for my project. 718 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,680 And for me, it's very helpful. First look at the data, look at 719 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,440 the story. And I've been in mind the macro 720 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,800 structure of the data. And so if I have macro 721 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,680 categories, if I have a trend line, So what is the macro, the 722 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,240 skeleton of the data. And then when I look for 723 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,600 inspiration, browsing through my catalogue, I have already mined 724 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,440 the macro shape, the information that it could have, and then I 725 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,480 know where to to look for inspiration. 726 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,160 So I would say I save everything I enjoy. 727 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,440 That's my form of inspiration, my the way which I ended through 728 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,640 exhibitions or vintage books. But I I have to say that having 729 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,560 in mind the structure of the contents is very important to me 730 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,120 because then I understand, I start understanding what kind of 731 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,960 shapes I can go towards. The quick answer is I save 732 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,400 everything I like and then I go through all the things that I've 733 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,320 saved. Yeah, makes sense. 734 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,000 That's that's great. Matt, you mentioned earlier that 735 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,280 your kids will soon start voting and the importance of them 736 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,480 having other stories that they heard or they've seen in regards 737 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,680 of migration. We know that anti migrant 738 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,880 narratives are full of misinformation. 739 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,280 What do you believe is the role of your practice in pushing back 740 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,000 against the public discourse? So what? 741 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,640 What strategies have been most effective? 742 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:03,960 Thank you. This is a very interesting 743 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,040 question because it also allows me to explain how I, I actually 744 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,640 try to divert a little bit to traditional ways of thinking 745 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,880 about, for example, what do we do about, I mean, ever since I 746 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,600 started working on migration and every conversation, somebody 747 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,720 says, oh, we've got to change the narrative, right? 748 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,320 We, we have, we've got to change and that we do something that is 749 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,040 like, how do we do this? So let's, let's stick with the 750 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,560 with metaphors. And the first thing I said, I 751 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,080 don't push back, meaning that rather than sort of pushing. 752 00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:38,080 So you have this wave of, of lies coming to you. 753 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,120 And as I said in, you know, everything I've experienced 754 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,280 before was a bit like pushing back with a little bit of truth 755 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,360 to try to keep the lies away. There's one thing that I 756 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,160 actually quite enjoy doing is I play a little bit with it. 757 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,760 I play with the fiction so that those lies tell, you know, have 758 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,640 a completely fictional story about what happens to people 759 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,440 when they move. And we pick up this idea of 760 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,160 telling the story and fiction and turn that into something 761 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,000 beautiful and quite counterintuitive about that. 762 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,680 You know, that ugliness, the fear that those that those you 763 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,800 know that that narrative creates and come up. 764 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,760 This is why this idea of the beauty of movement came to me. 765 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,000 It's this idea that you, you know, you you don't, you don't, 766 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,880 you don't push back, but you almost say, you say something 767 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,160 very different and something a little bit unexpected, right? 768 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,880 You throw in, you know, a concept that you will not, you 769 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,840 will not associate with what has been deliberately painted as a 770 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:36,000 phenomenon of fear, of pain, of desperation, which is, you know, 771 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,920 is a lot of things that are happening. 772 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,840 But at the same time, then they create a sense of impossibility 773 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,120 and a sense of detachment from what you know can, can be done 774 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,280 about it. And the other important thing is 775 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,680 that actually goes back to what Federico was saying a little 776 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,520 about heart and mind, hearts and minds, that project, which of 777 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,040 course is that we know that public, you know, public 778 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,520 perceptions of what's happening are driven by some of these 779 00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,760 narratives. They're not necessarily 780 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,440 entrenched. I mean, time and time again, 781 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,800 surveys find that people are far less negative, particularly when 782 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,640 you when you, when you are able to have a a meaningful 783 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,640 conversation and a pragmatic conversation about who migrants 784 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,800 are and people are not. You know, I'm not necessarily 785 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,280 entrenched or negative or against. 786 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,200 And in fact, a lot of the, you know, when, when migration rises 787 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,400 in public opinions and as a as a, as a problem, it normally 788 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,600 goes hand in hand with electoral processes in the UK. 789 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,720 It's fascinating to see what happened around the Brexit 790 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:32,840 campaign and then all of a sudden people were not worried 791 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,320 about migration anymore. So the first thing to do is to 792 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,160 is, is to be, try to be a little bit smarter hearted and not to, 793 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,240 you know, not to engage in a way or try to, you know, try to 794 00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:45,400 avoid the, the, the, the avalanche of law of lies by sort 795 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,760 of going out the mountain through, you know, a different 796 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,000 path that you know, allows, you know, to slowly but sadly to get 797 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,000 there. To me, what matters more than 798 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,440 anything on coming forward with an alternative to what is the 799 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:05,200 dominant toxic narrative and the lies rather than trying to fight 800 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,240 something ugly and negative with something positive is to try to 801 00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:13,240 do something different, which is to break down the fundamental 802 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:17,000 premise of the narrative, which is the other is to be feared 803 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,760 like the other. You know is you know the people 804 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,080 who come your way and you know and under undermine your life or 805 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,320 take away your spaces in your kids school or your you know, 806 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,200 yours, your queue in your space in the line in the queue for for 807 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,840 the doctor almost to create a story about the movement of 808 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,800 people that is, you know, that just elicits a different kind of 809 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,000 imagination. One thing that I often say, just 810 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,320 to give a very comfortable example of what it means is that 811 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,480 imagine how many of us have had some family members in the past 812 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,320 who have moved from, say a village in, you know, somewhere 813 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,680 and perhaps in the countryside and moved to the city to look 814 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,240 for work. Now just imagine that there is a 815 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,440 a fictional border between the countryside and the city. 816 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,520 Like somebody says, you know, from this point on, you're not 817 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,400 allowed. And that's often what this 818 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,240 international migration is about. 819 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:12,320 But the movement from one place to the next, not out of 820 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,240 desperation, necessarily out of will, out of interest, out of 821 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:17,920 curiosity is what moved me and what might well be what moved 822 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,320 you, Julia and others to go some places to do something 823 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,520 different. And I want to claim back the 824 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,840 normality, the normality, the the natural aspect, which is one 825 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,520 of the reason why all these non metal, these organic metaphors 826 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,240 that we work with the Federica from trees to mountains to 827 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,720 organic shapes work so well because it comes from within is 828 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:42,880 a very is a natural and organic sort of response to us as human 829 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,520 beings. So breaking down the barrier 830 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,360 between us and them and creating an artist of us is what I'm 831 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,880 aiming to do, rather than in a way, fight back against the 832 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,640 lies. Thank you for sharing that and 833 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,480 for your important work. It's certainly important to me 834 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,880 personally as an immigrant here in the US and as the grandchild 835 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,040 of refugees that you're addressing this, you know, for 836 00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,880 migrants today and, and working on these issues. 837 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,680 And I, I really like this idea of like, rather than just 838 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,880 directly being response, responding all the time to 839 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:18,440 disinformation and things like that. 840 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,600 It's sounds like almost like like being like water, right? 841 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,400 Like you're kind of redirecting in that sense and really finding 842 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,680 new metaphors as you were saying, like away from these 843 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,800 invasion map kind of scenarios to something that is normalizing 844 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,440 migration because it is just a normal human activity. 845 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,600 So as we wrap up our time together, I have a two-part 846 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,800 question 1 is just about the the future of Lago Collective. 847 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,920 Can you share a preview, whether of an upcoming project or just a 848 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,640 general direction you're going? And then could each of you, 849 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,160 Federica and Marta, share with our listeners, our viewers, 850 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,960 something that you want to recommend to them? 851 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,680 It could be a piece of media, yeah, could be a project, 852 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,040 something that you haven't done, but it could be a book, a movie, 853 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,640 anything else, just to recommend to her audience. 854 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,840 OK, the future of Lago. Let me again use a metaphor, the 855 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,040 visual one, Lego came from a place of curiosity from me, 856 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,840 right as I almost saw there is almost imagine you're walking to 857 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,160 say London or a city or New York City where the, you know, where 858 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,480 there's not much space to build new things and almost like 859 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,880 walking down the street and I saw like a little space in the 860 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,640 corner at the end of the street. They looked like something could 861 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,280 be built there in between other buildings, like an awkward 862 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,680 space. And so let me try to see if I 863 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,680 can build something there. Anyway, it's sort of two years 864 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,640 later. There is now there is now a 865 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,160 building there of some kind. No, there is some foundations 866 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,560 and, and something has happened. And so, you know, it's 867 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,640 interesting when you create a new organization, become an 868 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,840 entrepreneur, there are all these expectations about, you 869 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,960 know, scaling up in size. And I go back to the fact that I 870 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,880 want to make a difference in my own way. 871 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,360 And so the future of Lago is to build an owl on these 872 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,800 foundations. I feel very, very strong to me. 873 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,280 There is I have no doubt. And in a way, this conversation 874 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,760 is just an example that we are creating. 875 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,200 We're, you know, we're this house is becoming a place for 876 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,720 people to come and have conversations and drinks and 877 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:07,560 parties. People are coming along from 878 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,200 different, from different disciplines and, and in fact is 879 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,840 a bit bigger than I thought the, the space. 880 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,680 And so what's happening now is, is, is building on that. 881 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,440 And so the, the main thing that is you know, that to be expected 882 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,920 is that again, going back to this idea of staying with an 883 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,720 issue over time and make it travel a little bit further 884 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,240 along the lines is that this work on visa inequality has only 885 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,800 just started. We're lucky that this is an area 886 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,400 where some data is published every year, so expect sort of 887 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,840 the launch of the next phase in late spring. 888 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,480 And we also have support to actually expand the work to 889 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,080 begin to build archives of individual stories and create 890 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,600 more performances and more beautiful work out of the 891 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,400 research and the data, but to really address this fundamental 892 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:01,160 issue of passport inequality. And in fact, today is more, you 893 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,080 know, interesting than ever because we just had the 894 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,400 announcement of the first African woman being the curator 895 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,600 of the next art Vianali in two in a year and a half time where 896 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:15,240 so Africa continues to be there at the heart of of, you know, 897 00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,560 after the last couple of years of the Vianali. 898 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,520 And so that's a perfect sort of moment in time to really make 899 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,600 sure that we've addressed some of those issues because 900 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,000 otherwise a lot of the African artists that are going to have 901 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,640 their work at the Vianali might not be able to to be there. 902 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,280 So that's a little bit longer longer term. 903 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,240 We do have something, you know a couple of exciting things coming 904 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:39,360 up around El Salona design week in, in, in in the spring. 905 00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:44,000 And then there is also a moment of interest for the economy. 906 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,320 We can tell you more about as the three and Ally in Milan this 907 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,680 year, we'll focus on inequality. And so we're also thinking about 908 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,160 sort of engaging with this debate in the design space where 909 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,520 inequality is becoming of increasing interest. 910 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,400 And then let me go back to my old world, the world of the 911 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,080 international mutant policy making. 912 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,640 Even before we get to the next RB and Ally, which we'll focus 913 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,920 again on Africa. There is the G20 in South Africa 914 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,520 in a year's time, which is a really, you know, comes after 915 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,200 Indonesia and Brazil. So it's got, you know, high 916 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,080 expectations on countries, on sort of low and middle income 917 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,600 countries driving a little bit the agenda. 918 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,040 The African Union is now a permanent member of the G20. 919 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,880 So I love the world we do, particularly with cities and on 920 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,560 particularly on urban economy and creative economy in Africa 921 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,960 has a moment of engagement around the G20. 922 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,840 So the horizon is, you know, I take less, I'll take the next 923 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,120 RBN ally as the medium horizon. We're going to try to rebalance 924 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,040 visa inequality between now and then, with a particular focus on 925 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,840 creatives from Africa who really are disproportionately affected 926 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,880 by passport inequality as we speak. 927 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,120 And all along we'll work together with Federica and 928 00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,000 others to really make sure that design continues to drive the 929 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,360 way we think about the solutions. 930 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,560 My recommendations I OK, I have one exhibition and two films. 931 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,560 I'm a film person. I love going to the cinema. 932 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,840 I love to go to cinema and by myself during the day when I can 933 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,240 I love that too. 2 films. Fremont That was a 2023 film 934 00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:22,320 that tells the story of an Afghani refugee in a small city 935 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,360 in the US. And it's beautiful because it 936 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,000 challenges so many misconceptions about who a 937 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,440 refugee is and what an Afghani woman looks like and does, and 938 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,040 then connects it to the experience of long term Chinese 939 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,720 migrants in the US. And I think it's one of the most 940 00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:41,440 beautiful things I've seen on migration for a long time. 941 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,600 And then Anatomy of a Fall, because it speaks to women and 942 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,960 relationship with men in particular in a way that really 943 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,640 resonates with my experience. And then finally, I need to just 944 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,320 double check to make sure I get the title right. 945 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,400 I actually bumped into an exhibition last week. 946 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,080 I was in Rome and I went to the Maxi, to the Museum of 947 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,000 Contemporary Art, mainly because I wanted to see the, I've never 948 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,280 been to the building. I want to see the Zaidade 949 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,480 building and there is an exhibition called The Restless 950 00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,960 Architecture by dealers Caffeine and Renfro. 951 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,040 So very much coming from a design space that basically 952 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,600 focuses on movement and architecture, and it 953 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,920 investigates movement as an internal property of 954 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,600 architecture. Buildings that change their 955 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,680 configuration, have mobile elements and swell or turn to 956 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,320 welcome visitors. And I never thought about 957 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,440 movement in architecture. And in fact, architecture is 958 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,400 very much something that, you know, creates things that don't 959 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,480 move. And I thought it was beautiful 960 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,640 curator, which is actually quite rare for museums in Rome. 961 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,160 And I found it really inspiring. And so go see it. 962 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,200 Wonderful, Federica. There are new angles I would 963 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,480 love to work on and we will work on new angles about visas and 964 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,520 visual inequality. I want to talk about with Lago 965 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,920 and it is something that Martin and I want to do in the next, in 966 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,240 the next months. As she mentioned, I'm 967 00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:06,640 collaborating as a independent designer in that case with for 968 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,120 the journaling division that it would be all around the 969 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,960 inequalities topics and all the possible aspects, angles from 970 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,760 which to serve the inequality subject. 971 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:22,600 And, and then I, I love designing to, to talk about 972 00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,360 topics, but then I also love to talk about design, to talk about 973 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,400 topics. So I love to talk about my 974 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,240 designs to, to tackle issues and, and topics. 975 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,880 And so it's something that I'm going to do very gladly with 976 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,120 Marta and Lago. Speaking about inspirations, 977 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,040 there is a book that inspired, it's one of the things that 978 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,480 inspired me the most in the last months. 979 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,040 It's not a design related book is the source of self regard 980 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,680 that it's a selection of essays by and speeches by Tony Morrison 981 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,760 and it's beautiful. Of course, the essays and the 982 00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,080 speeches are incredibly brilliant. 983 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,520 And there is a quote that I there is a sentence that I 984 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:07,240 always love to quote, and it's about the repercussions of a 985 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:12,920 rigid and unchanging language and Tony Morrison abroad however 986 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,000 moribund it is not without effect, for it actively towards 987 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,240 the intellect stores conscience, suppresses human potential and 988 00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:25,320 receptive to interrogation. It cannot form or tolerate new 989 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,280 ideas, shape other thoughts, tell another story, feel 990 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,000 baffling silences. She was talking about Britain 991 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,680 and spoken language here, of course. 992 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,000 But I think, I really think that the same concepts can be applied 993 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,840 to my visual languages, to the languages of design and 994 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,960 visualization. And so this is something that I 995 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,200 really love quoting every time I can. 996 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,760 Wonderful. What a beautiful way to close us 997 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,920 out with Toni Morrison, Federica Fragapane, and Marta Foresti. 998 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,760 Thank you for joining us on the EIG Design Podcast and thank you 999 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,360 for tuning in. You can listen and subscribe to 1000 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,240 us wherever you get podcasts, or you can check out the video 1001 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,200 versions at the AIG Design YouTube channel where you can 1002 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,320 like and subscribe there as well. 1003 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,200 We'll see you in a future episode.