Welcome to aiga is fireside chat.
This is day two of the 2022, aiga design and business
conference. Thank you for joining us for
this Fireside, and for the conference, please connect with
us and share your thoughts. The hashtags are aiga design and
GA DB conf. Now it is my pleasure to welcome
Vinnie of Johnson AIG is executive director and today's
guest Michael Beirut partner pentagram Benny.
Thank you. Amy and good morning and
welcome. Everyone, really, I should
greetings. We have guests joining us from
all around the globe, which is really exciting for our day, two
of the aiga 2020 to design a business conference.
This conference is a unique opportunity for us to look at
the power of design as it intersects with business in the
world around us. This is a really special
conversation. Our Guest today needs, no.
Duction. But that's why I'm going to give
him an introduction, so that you can understand the present, the
passion, and the magnitude. My guest today has had on design
and our larger design business Community.
Our Guest today is Michael Beirut partner of pentagram.
Michael Beirut is a graphic designer extraordinaire a design
critic, an educator, a servant leader, in his profession, he's
an AI. AGA medalist and serve both as
president of our New York Chapter and president emeritus
of aiga national. He has served in several leading
organizations in helping to push design business culture forward.
He's been a part of the cooper-hewitt national Design
Awards and he's been the Henry wolf resident in graphic design
at the American Academy in Rome, serving as a senior critic in
graphic design at Yale is electrical.
Practice of design and management both at Yale School
of Art in the Yale School of Management.
He's the co-founder of the website design Observer and has
written numerous volumes his monograph.
That we'll talk about a little later today is simply entitled,
what? I love, how to use graphic
design to sell things, explain things, make things look better,
make people laugh, make people cry and every once in a while
change the world today, I like to welcome my And Michael Bay
root welcome to the Fireside. Hi, Benny, happy to be here.
Happy to be here with everyone. Well, it's, it's really great
when we talk about kind of leadership and service for a
community, you know, it's incredible, just over the years,
your commitment, your name always pops up and even this
morning our friend Cheryl hell are.
Our last medalist mentioned in a quote, she shared online a photo
and article of your service on aig's very first diversity task
force. And this was some almost 40
years ago, and we talked about, you know, showing up in
leadership in action and it was a great reminder that Cheryl
gave all of us. But to talk about, you know,
what service has meant to you in the profession.
I like to start up a little different than we talked before,
but I love to start off with bad about how you've come to feel
about your role in helping the industry.
Many, thanks for that kind introduction.
And, and for that question, I think one of it's interesting.
I bet that's one of the things that has always motivated me as
a designer. And I think as a, as a person
who works as a designer is, both my sense that I'm really
privileged in a lot of different way, Is but privileged in a way
that perhaps is shared by many of the people on this call in
that, I discovered early on that, there was something that I
love to do that, I was good at and then found that I could, you
know, make a life doing that thing.
And, you know, people will Define that in different ways.
In my, for someone in my generation, they would probably
finding you were good at doing something like drawing and
creating art then discovering. There was a, you know, That you
didn't have to do that on Saturdays, you could actually
not only do it, you know, as a job for a living but also do it
in a way that could affect the lives of other people that could
enter their worlds in different ways.
And but I also, you know, when I made that Discovery back in, you
know, ancient history times, you know, back in the 60s and 70s
and Suburban Cleveland, I was surrounded and no one around me
was in that, you know, I mean they could sort of appreciate a
kid who knew how to draw, but like the idea that right know
that there was some, you could make a living doing something
other than working in the Ford plant or, you know, work in a
barber shop or a butcher shop or something like that or being
something that kind of was, you know, like a doctor or a lawyer,
you know, professions that would show up in picture books, you
know, no one knew anything about like the idea of, you know,
working as a professional quote-unquote graphic designer
and you know, A lot of things that motivate me, you know, have
always been my remembering what, it was like being surrounded by
people who sort of didn't understand or care that much
about the things that I was passionate about and my desire
to kind of open up those worlds took them.
So I think one of the things that I be, that I got almost
good at buying a Sessa tea was explaining.
What design was in terms that non-designers could understand.
I'm married to a non-designer. My mom and dad were non His
might for young adults older in their own desires from some
hemmed in, on all sides. By people who not only, you
know, they understand what I do. They're actually very healthily
skeptical about what I do. They're my fiercest critics,
right? They will sort of you know I've
got a my famous younger God or as often said you're doing that
thing, you always do Dad where you're taking something,
tweaking it and saying there. I fixed it for you in the
process right now of Designing for wedding invitations.
So So taking that role on is both dad and designer.
Yeah it's not glad. I think I should give you credit
for that but I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
I do a credit or sympathy whatever you want.
But I do think that on that part of I think what?
What my part of what my journey was was in a way.
Interestingly enough, this is going to say, it's going to
sound oxymoronic lie, like bragging, but I think the older
I Gotten the more humility. I've acquired about the role
that people who do what we do quiet.
You know, when I know when I first graduated design school, I
sort of thought, you know, why doesn't the world know, why does
the world know or care about this thing?
That I spent five years studying, there's something
wrong with them and this is my job to go out there and just
bang their heads together to go. I really realized what a genius.
You know, I and my colleagues are in that we kind of possess
these special gifts and then you Really realize that you have to
reach people that you know that that's you know preaching at
them and kind of looking down at them and you know, kind of
trying to quote-unquote, you know, teach them about the
importance of design. You have to like to live it and
demonstrate and do it in ways that are relevant to their
lives. And the way that they live and
be prepared to fail, be prepared to be misunderstood be prepared
to listen to people as they're telling you, what reactions,
they're having or not. Of the work that you're doing.
And I think, you know, learning how to listen and learn how to
learn from that has been probably the, you know, the
thing that actually made the biggest difference for me in the
thing in fact that I got out of bed service, it's funny.
I remember, really clearly what a revelation that conference was
that Cheryl was talking about that.
Very first wives, graphic design, 98%, white conference
that I think must have happened maybe in the early 90s or so it
was a long time. Time ago and it was just
revelatory to me. It really was tight.
I can remember, I can remember where I was sitting in our room.
I remember, you know, how the chair felt on her my, but I
really have a really clean muscle set of memory of that out
of that event. And again, it was a learning
experience, not a Neo now platform for me, certainly, but
it's just a place for me to to enlarge my own view about what,
you know, what rolled our profession could play in
advancing the world. Lars.
So, you know what's interesting to me is when you talk about,
you know, being in Ohio, in studying graphic design and
being in Cincinnati, there were people around you, who created
kind of Pathways for you, who were mentors, and it's came to
see that you've abused over your career.
You've adopted that same role for many other people do space
in there, but take me back to Cincinnati.
You know, when you were there what does success look like for
you? What did you think?
Success would be When you were studying graphic design and
Cincinnati. And in your early days I had a
almost. I did a dangerously narrow view
of success, you know? I mean, I think I have, I think
hidden away in my attic somewhere.
There's a journal from this, that I kept back in the 70s, in
high school, through college Wi-Fi.
God help me. I think, I've somewhere, in
there in my, you know, teenage handwriting other words, you
know, I want to be a Amos graphic designer, and in this is
like, you know, and also, I just wanted to qualify that, and make
it sound, not quite so stupid or embarrassing, you know?
No, one ever heard of famous graphic design was back.
Then, you know, the Wonder, you know, I learned, I know, I
believe any, I can't even figure out how I came to know what
their names were pre-internet. You know, I think I, you know,
Milton Glaser and just published a book called Milton, Glaser
graphic design, that my mom God bless her.
To find a Downtown department store in Cleveland and give it
to me for as a Christmas present.
And so great, you know, Milton Glaser is most famous graphic
designer in the world to me and and I just like, wanted to do
what he did. And I just, you know, I think, I
mean, I think one of my biggest dream was if someone was
standing in a record store, flipping through covers, you
know, they would come to one that I had designed and turn it
over and think this is cool. I want to buy this record and
Yeah, because that'd happen to me many times and I knew the
names of record cover designers as much as I knew the names of
the people playing instrument Daniel.
Grayson, ohh. That's how nerdy I was.
I want to be one of those guys that looks sort of like, you
know, I can't play an instrument, but you can sort of
be and say, hey, I'm with the band, I designed her and there
was close enough for me. I think that was sort of what
success look like. So, if that's my measure of
success, I'll point out that I've never designed a record
cover or even a CD, cover an MP3 cover or anything like that.
Unlike my partner, Paul was share who Will you know who
knows that it will be chewy will say, polish are famous designer
of Boston's first debut, album cover, you know, she lives in
constant dread of that famously. So I live vicariously through
her. As far as that goes.
There you go. So so skip ahead.
I'm going to keep on this theme of thinking about success, so
now we move to the early 90s and you're a pentagram, what was
your definition of success? Then why I think I Leo.
Um, I may have kind of had a sword for it, kind of like I was
a little bit of a late bloomer, I sort of had a delayed, I guess
Adelaide maturity in a way. Because in between graduation
and joining pentagram, I worked for 10 years for, you know,
probably the key Mentor. I had on my wife, Massimo
vignelli a legendary designer who was president of aiga
President of Ozzy sort of like one of those names that I knew
and Who was a hero and role model of mine and and who ran an
office very much like an Italian, in a way that I think
probably is almost, you know? See, you know, historic model
was not really operant anymore. You know?
You would approve virtually Apprentice yourself to a man,
like Ben Yahweh and learn the trade through that process,
right? And when I joined pentagram, at
the end of Arc. You know I really my goal was
just to figure out what kind what my design and writing was
what kinds of things I was precipitation.
And Benny, if I made 11 misapprehension, I had that I
think would still be relevant. In anyone listening.
Now is that? I remember thinking, I want to
figure out what my kind of visual design style is.
I would look at it designers, who I admire, and I would think,
you know, You know, you can tell a Milton Glaser.
You can tell when April Grime and you can tell a Polish are,
you know, by, you know, by the typefaces they used and their
color sense and what they're, you know, what kind of visual
probe say incorporate into their work.
And I thought, I thought it's my responsible not to develop a set
of things that people would say, oh, you know, he's telling
Michael, they room design and instead, that's the wrong way to
do it. The thing that I realized was
what you need to do is just find out what subjects your Preceded.
What, what, what are you curious about, what excites you, what
people, you know, if you're in a room with someone, where do you,
you know, where can you draw the energy, and an inspiration from
those people and when how can you contribute to that energy
and inspiration? So it's got almost nothing to
do. Sort of can't force the, you
know, thinking about the, the work is important, but thinking
about kind of that craft as the starting point for me, at least
it was just sort of like it just got a backwards.
It's I just kind of learned when I look back at work, I had done
particularly in those days. The things that I judged as the
most successful were things were I just connected with the
problem with the subject, I cared about the mission of the
organization. I Vibe with the people who are
representing it in. There are other things why we
just sort of discharging or you know, my responsible
professional role doing a good job but you know I would look at
those things and things all you can really tell best not
something that I cared as much about and Think I'm, you know,
and and the lesson that I drew from, that was the more things
you can do more things. You care about the more things,
you can get excited about the more things you can get serious
about the more access. You'll have to, to a world of
things that you can participate in, you know, in some people are
Specialists. They just, you know, their
interest is, you know, Stay Fashion or their interest is
sports, and they sort of like, you know, kind of plow a fairly
narrow road through that, which I think is perfect.
A ballad, if that's what your passion is.
I've always been, you know, had a really broad you know,
capacity for spreading my attention around even too thin
sometimes and just ended up, I think coming into the nineties,
realizing that if I got a call from someone and they would say,
can you do some graphic design for me?
I would use as an excuse to kind of, you know, go underground
into their world. And you know why I'm in?
So I can find myself in, you know, football locker rooms or
Newsroom. Soare, you know, scientific
Laboratories, you know, better than without being good at
sports, having taken a journalism class or getting
anywhere Beyond Biology one suddenly, you know, I'm in rooms
where people are purporting to decode, you know, the genome so
they can cure cancer and trying to explain it to me, so I can
explain it to someone else who like me doesn't understand it,
you know, so that idea of kind of using it.
That's so kind of realizing that it's not so much about being a
cool typeface although I love a cool type base as much as any of
the 79 people on this call that sort of is the thing that will
come naturally. If you can get engaged and
excited and energized by the subject matter, and the work and
the interplay of personalities, and the Ambitions that everyone
shares about putting something out in the world.
I think it's interesting. Even in hear your conversation.
I'm seeing a throughput of this evolution of starting off.
It was about you, right? It was about the designer, as
the, this is what I'm doing. This is my signature space.
You have the similar thing in architecture or music.
You can tell I've gone from produced by producer, but the
shift even in your language in the storytelling where it
doesn't become about you, but it becomes about you diving into
the client in diving into the subject matter and those
interests and ultimately that making you a better designer,
and I'll extend our conversation.
To say also partner in moving in, in the work that you have.
So when you let's talk a bit about pentagram, which is, you
know, goes about saying is world's largest design
organization of its type. But you're really interesting
model in this sense that you're a collection of Partners in
which your partners are the owners but they're also the
drivers of the work, right? That's a bit about how it
because for those who are listening and we're streaming in
our audiences in there. They're experiencing various
different types of business models in spaces and and this is
a unique one in which you have this kind of ultimate partner
lattice yeah, well together. Yeah, yeah, Benny that's a
really good question and in fact I sort of would in some ways
it's completely unique and I have trouble even explaining it
to practice. Probably we partner is about me
and my partner's and I will disagree about what the model
really is and what he answered but are sometimes that sort of
makes it interesting. NG.
But in some ways I think would be familiar nearly to any
professional. Who's on this call in that when
it was started by the original five designers who began at
nearly 50 years ago. This June it'll be 50 years ago
in June next. Just next month.
Their idea was that, you know, they wanted to combine the
virtues of a very small model of practice led by a single person
working. Closely with some helpers where
that person not so much because so they could have total
control. I don't think but so they could
they could focus on engaging with the work and engaging with
those things that I was talking about earlier that I find
exciting, you know. So they're never put in a
position where there's managing, you know huge groups of people.
It's just kind of a handful of people a dozen or so let's say
and I think the what they learned was you can only go so
far with that small model. And And when they joined
together as five and named it Panna G after that, five-sided
shape, that more or less described was the org chart
because none of them were the boss.
They were all equals, they all preserve their autonomy.
So they, you know, they would hire their own teams, pick their
own clients, then pool, the the income and share the profits
equally shared the overhead, you know, five living more cheaply
than any one of them could live on their own.
You know, that model became the pentagram model and then, you
know, The outside world, you know, client who might be
reluctant to hire any one of those five individuals because
they just like alone, helpless freelancer would have more
confidence with you know the body of work than the size of
the office that they were able to command back then in the UK
in the 70s and going into the 80s today, it's 23 Partners, you
know, in Austin Berlin, and London, and New York here.
In New York, I have Nine Partners.
So there are 10 of us and all and it still works according to
the same model. However, so I have like, say, a
dozen people who work on my team, we work on a lot of things
independently, we're able to take on something as small as a
book cover and as large as a Big Brand identity, but then we were
able to also collaborate with each other as partners combine,
our teams, within offices across offices and work in a big open
plan to encourage that sort of cross.
Fertilization, it always amazes me.
Of the breadth of the work that you do.
When I'd see it show up in these, like really intimate
start up small projects and I'm thinking there's no way in the
world that pentagram is working on this.
We get you are. Yeah.
And then there's these kind of big earth-shattering projects
that you see that you would expect a big is facing and I
think that's there's some there's some incredible value if
we think about design and business and work that you can
have that flexibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's all because of this model that was set up by these
these five You know these five individuals back when I was in
the ninth grade and Ohio you know so I had nothing to do with
it but it's remarkable how much you know sort of the basic
precepts of the working arrangement.
They establish their own has endured you know half a century
later and certainly you know it's there are many aspects of
it that are ripe for change. Those were you know maybe
predictably and of the most tiresome possible way those were
five white guys back then and it was a lot of guys and a lot of
white guys for a long time. Now, I think we're fortunate in
this office of the 10th Partners, you know, half of us,
are women, people of color and and I think that will allow that
inevitably just has to kind of keep recalibrating and you know
it happens with the staff at its can happen.
At the partner level is going to happen at every level and it
doesn't happen by accident. You have posted and the
intentional about it and thinking of being intentional.
So with 23 Partners, you end up having almost 23 teams how do
you create Eight a dynamic exchange between the partners
and no sub teams. It's actually it's fairly
complicated to something we talked about and sometimes argue
about because it's sort of your kind of balancing two things
that are, you know that great nations.
Are you about all the trash? Great.
The Supreme Court tries to figure out the difference
between, what's to be controlled by individuals.
I should be controlled by state switch control by at the
national level, right? And I think, That, you know,
here in this little old partnership, you know, trying to
figure out how you balance. You know, the, you know what
benefit we what we owe the collective than what benefit
derived from the collective, versus what any one of us can do
individually is, you know, that's sort of has been since
1972. One of the things that they've
gone back and forth about and I think now, and I think relevant
to, you know, anyone on this call regardless of whether they
were Born in the 50s like me or born in the, in the art store
the 90s for whenever they were and where we're going there in
their career. I think one of the things that
really has changed dramatically is that we are also now, you
know, trying to figure out how we balance.
You know, the individual Ambitions and individual
profiles of each of the each of the designers that work for us,
each of the designers of my team, who are talented and
ambitious, who have You know, you know, when I mean, one of
the reasons that I kind of just showed up to work for Massimo
vignelli was no one had ever heard.
You know, I thought I was a very designer but I was the only
person in New York who had that opinion.
Even my wife was a little bit if he on it but you know, but like
and am Daniela. Thought I was good enough to
desire to work for him, but certainly exactly that good and
no better. And other than, you know, a few
people, no one had heard of me and that was going to be how it
would be four years. There was no, you know, I didn't
have a social media. D account, or whatever, or
website, or any means of reaching the public and making
my work and my voice out, putting it out there.
Now, we live in a world where every single one of us has that
sort of access which I think is fantastic.
I think it's sort of enriches. You know.
It's I think the more that the idea of creative work being
something that isn't just the, the bailiwick of a high priest
Of people who know who have been specially trained and, you know,
a certain kind of jargon. But rather something where
people feel they can participate in it.
And, you know, curious about it, learn about it, you know, do it
to a certain degree, even if that means the dark side of that
are, you know, logos for $20, or whatever these sites are that
can do that. I think that that's just part
of, that's just a byproduct of of having you No, you know, the
ability to create and make things more democratically
distributed. I think if we try to hog that
for ourselves, it's fatal. And I think that, if you managed
a firm of any size, one of the responsibilities you have, is
figuring out how you nurture, the people that are working for
you and how you respect their voices and how you respect the
pro, you know, how you sort of are conscious of and respect the
profiles that they're building for themselves.
One of the things you shared with me that I thought was
really powerful, you talked about bringing your partner's.
They're in how each year everyone shares a project that
was incredibly personally, meaningful for them.
I'd say, it's interesting you having a partnership
conversation, which, of course, you're going to talk about
profits and sharing them, but your concept of sharing isn't in
that the business space in there.
But it's about what is the work that you've done this past year,
this personal meaningful? Yeah.
Someone beg Benny.
You are the week after next. All of us are going to be
meeting together for Wednesday through Sunday.
We too have our body early meeting where I'll for the
offices, the partners all coming together and we spend spend a
couple of days just socializing and spending time with each
other because we all like each other and then we spend one one
day generally going through, you know, the mechanic the business
mechanics of the partnership. And one of the things that I
think is fascinating pentagrams model and updated, and one of
the reasons it's Unique and Really dangerous.
So unique or rightly unique is that off because it's a
partnership comprised entirely of working designers.
It means that it's being run by people who all went to Art
School. Basically, you know, effectively
and and further, run by people who may have bailed out of math
after algebra 2 or, you know, like me as as far as I went, I
didn't take precalc or trigger anything.
So I've got a very shaky grasp on alive And now and she's
particularly. And then retained earnings is
something that will come up in the meeting.
I have no I still after 30 plus years don't quite understand
what you mean. You know, it's okay my friend
because part of the new things we're doing at AIG a, we've got
courses to cover any events, sign me up.
I can get you. I can get you in to fill that
Gap but you're okay. God bless you guys.
Like I'm like I'm not sure about you my grave, my ruin my life,
you know, it might actually I've gotten this far just Used in the
force closing my eyes and the kind of like waving a lightsaber
around and actually paying attention of where the money is
coming from what it's doing. Might actually miss of my by,
but we get together. Spend a day talking about
business. And then in the, you know, every
day, we devote part of the days to kind of kind of conducting
like oh, a minister design conference.
Like as you said Partners will share work, that was important
to them. And the Year to go into depth on
a certain project maybe just give an idea of the breadth of
the work that happens. Talk about challenges.
They were facing or problems that they have and they're able
to do in a way that's very can be very Soul there in a way.
That's that's moving and inspiring.
And and I think we just as when I taught you, the u.s. a great
question about, you know what I was, you know, the transition
that I went through in the These, when I first joined
pentagram, and sort of that balance between the work that
you do. That's your output that
represents. Sort of the visual, Mark, you're
leaving behind and kind of the ideas behind at the process that
went into it. The human, the human equation
that both shape what the work turned out to be and what effect
that work had in the world. You know, I think we use those
conversations to get into those bigger issues as well and and
it's just, it's It's actually very daunting.
I think what's comical is that, not everyone, not all the
partners present every at every one of these meetings and sort
of do it about every other every third meeting.
And every time you, you learned that it's your turn to make one
of these presentations. Like, your first reaction is to
try to get out of it. I'm so pathetic.
My first reaction was like, don't make me, I can't, I'll,
you know, I haven't done anything good in the past during
years. I just don't really remember
what happened during the pandemic.
And and then I said that to Emily Oldman here and she said
me too, you know, it's like, you know, can we all get out of it?
Do we have to do this and then you learn that, that even if you
sort of sort of, I mean, my plan is just to say, this is what
happened and these things were successful.
I think these things were less successful.
This was interesting for this reason but you know, failed for
that reason and you know, I can do it in a way that I don't
think, you know, you would necessarily Really do in front
of an audience like this. Although I probably would at
this stage of the game, but I think it's, it's just, I mean, I
mean, and it happens here every day, choose one of the reasons
that I came to really appreciate pentagram was I just really
enjoy doing, you know, being around people, having be able to
kind of just walk by one of the designers desks and see
something on their screen. That's interesting.
And that person might work for a tiara or A person might work for
her Itachi Chan and I could just say these were typefaces that or
what photographer is that or how did you do that?
How did you do that? You know, that animation, you've
got running there and I'd sit down and just explain it to me
then I could wave someone over for my team who I think, you
know, we're working on a problem.
I said here this is, you know, take a look at this.
This is really interesting, so that part of it just like a
great, it's like auditing nine master classes at once five days
a week, it's really great which is which is powerful, I'm going
to continue on something that we started to deal with, which is a
little bit of creative tension. And I moved from the business
and your team site to the business in the client side.
You know, we're in a space with spend a lot of change.
How have you been thinking about in managing, the creative
tension between being in the room with the client right?
Which is so much a part of what those in this call but we all
kind of experience to this space where you can be in the room,
the client and that's okay, or you can't be in the room in the
client and that's okay. And and where is the, you know,
where's the tension today? What are you seeing in terms of
that affecting the work and your engagement?
Yeah I'm great question and I think it's something that you
know I bet everyone on this call as thought about or talked about
in a way because I mean I remember if you would have asked
me in February in 2020, what my opinion of videoconferencing was
it was like my least favorite way to do design while you can
buy. If I heard that we were going to
have to kind of be on it, we might be.
Had you on record saying that? Yeah, I feel like I just I just
thought it's a terrible way, you know.
A, I just hate that. Can we go down there and just
sit in a room and get this sort of event?
We have to, like, do this part official thing, wherever it's on
TV and then, you know, March 16th rolled around it.
By the end of that when we get everyone, everyone like new.
I'm sorry, you're on mute. I'm going to share my screen.
Can you see this? I'm going to try to go to full
screen, okay? Is it is pants?
And can everyone see does everyone see a big red screen
that says what it says, you know today's date.
You know it's just kind of you know and and then I was two
years old and I think we got really good at it.
Quote a fall, but I found that one of the things that I got
good at that, I think my team got could have in them.
That when I looked around on my partner's, they seem to get good
at it too. Was, you know, you sort of
realize that every discussion in a way had to turn into a deck,
you know, a slideshow that would have 20 slides, 40 slides, you
know how whatever number slides it had and and that meant that
Everything had to have this sort of linearity to it that, you
know, that that made everyone kind of reframe the
conversation, as you know, a narrative like a, you know, a
three act play or kind of may know, rising and falling action.
And then everything is leading up to a moment where you're
trying to deliver to a kind of decision that you're trying to
force and sometimes, All right. Well, I'm going to do that kind
of presentation when the, when the moments called for it.
I said I did it for years and years and years but other times
you want to be in a room. You just want to walk into a
room and have it papered with the exploration that you did,
right? And just like, you know, there's
an arc of an architect that I'm shy.
I assume a lot of you have heard of named Frank gehry who we've
done some projects with and he has a way of working with
clients that I think is just Powerball and disarming and
explains why he gets to design those buildings which just if
you look on their face they're completely risky and crazy
looking but he hates being in that room doing that
presentation. And he will say to the most
important client in the world, you know?
Okay, so we've looked at that screen, kind of just take you
back in the studio and show some of the stuff we're working on
and then he'll like literally just walk around the models and
say we try this first and but and you get and unless something
is going on that I've Ever seen rehearsed.
It really looks as if he's simply as walking in and the
moment he walks in the work is as it's happening at a, you
know, at 11:37 on a Thursday morning and I owe a and and
he'll literally say, you know, one of the things with this
model here is that it just seemed, you know, the weight of
it seemed to be too much on the top.
So what if we here? Give me give me that knife.
And he'll literally take part of the building apart and just do
it right before people's eyes. And it's so, You know, it's the
exact, you know, even though he is the classic capital a
starchitect, right. Right.
You know, he says he's been in the Simpsons, you know, he's
never dangerous, but like other hand, there's something so
personal and disarming and inviting about, you know, part.
It feel, you've been invited to participate in the design
process with someone and, and that's sort of what's impound
would so hard to do on. Zoom, you know, you can't have
that experience of being in the room and having that sort of
give and take that you can get watch, someone's reaction.
I mean, the thing that I used to know, clearly I love making
speeches and I like the sound of my own voice to a fault, but I
sort of like learned that in a meeting.
You know, you're not, you know, you're not going to persuade
anyone to your point of view by talking louder and faster.
That doesn't work. You know you have to now I just
learned ass like stop and say I can see a lot of confused faces
or you look like you really hate this idea, right?
I really hate it. Tell me why and we'll go from
there. And and people, you know,
somebody they say, you know, I just you know it really doesn't
work for me. I just like my least favorite
color and then and I've learned something really interesting
there if that's right, you know, you know, don't use a color but
I think you know, you don't learn anything by making
speeches, you learn things by asking questions and and and I
think Zoom rewards people's ability to kind of make speeches
if you ask me. And I think it really is doesn't
give you the opportunity. Tuna to be in the room, have
that give and take that, I think can be so productive in the
design process. So, as we're coming back to
work, one of the things we're doing is you know as we're
working in the office here, more face-to-face time, right?
That's between me and my design or as being my partner's, my
designers and and their do you know the designers get a chance
to kind of exchange ideas. We get a chance to kind of
exchange ideas, that's healthy. And then, you know, yesterday,
we made a trek out and sad face to face with a fairly new client
that were working. And just being in the room with
them and even looking around that room, looking at the things
on the wall, looking at the books on the Shelf, looking at
the body language of who said we're who stood up who taught,
you know, who would get more animated in the conversation,
who sort of sat back and kind of stroke their chin.
You know, you know you don't get any of that information.
You get very little that information on Zoom.
And you know, not having to get on a plane and fly for, you
know, travel for 5 hours for a hour.
Long meeting is, uh, is is a useful thing to it gets good for
your health and it's good for the environment obviously.
So I don't think it'll ever go away.
I just think it'll become one tool that will use along with
other person as we go forward. But there's a moment of
Discovery and you were talking about you know, kind of pre
Gimmick walking around and looking over her shoulder, a
seeing an idea happening and kind of finding something in
there. So did you know, I live in DC.
So it is the capital of bureaucratic efficiency, okay?
And in that, I learned that our English alphabet has 26 letters,
but there are countless combinations that we can put
them together to amaze and confuse us all.
And so, I want to talk to you about one that starts off with
with a combination of foia. And for those those who are
steeped in that, it's a Freedom of Information Act, which gives
you access to government information, and you, and your
team came up with a brilliantly, crazy idea.
And project that you worked on it.
I would be remiss if we didn't talk about it for a second for
those who are listening in, if you get a chance to check or
Google this Michael and his team took a document, the FBI it put
together on internet slang and all of the Combinations of
letters and what they mean and you took that very bureaucratic
efficient document and turned it into a beautiful jib talk.
A bit about how this crazy idea, came up, and how you took it and
turned it into this wonderful moment.
I be happy doing. In fact, I can hang on.
Give me white girl. With literally ten seconds.
I'll bring one in. I'll hold it off.
Okay, and you can s in that so is everyone sees?
This is the beauty of Fireside. We can pick up and Jump in right
there. I surprised Michael to talk
about about this project, so we'll get a chance to see it
firsthand, all right? So every year pentagram does a
holiday card that we send out to our mailing was just for fun and
like, you know, and in the past few years between people being
displaced from their usual, addresses and print being
potentially dead, and everything on the line, we weren't even
sure we should do this. I did have this idea, and part
of the motivation of the idea is the newest partner in our Them
in our New York office is a designer who some of you may not
may know named Matt Willie and that was four years.
The art director of The New York Times magazine and is, I think
he's the best one of the best typographers and and living
today and great type designer. If you've ever seen the TV show,
killing Eve. He did the main titles for that
and he just he's just brilliant. And I thought, well, when I'd
like to, you know, I was on me to kind of come up with a
suggestion for the holiday card. Could look like.
And I said, okay, the do something was based on
typography. That would be nice.
And I remembered, when the Freedom of Information Act
uncovered this document from the FBI, which happened about five
or six years ago, this story in Time, Magazine story in the
Washington Post and basically it was when the internet was a
little bit newer when Twitter was a knuth.
Newer thing and peered based on this document, which the FBI
don't see us ever really commented on, is that someone at
the FBI was told, you know, we need to really research things
that are happening on the internet and they use a lot of
acronyms, like, you know, LOL and RT R OT L, you know, and
ROFL and BRB and stuff like that.
And you know, some of these might be Sinister something.
So we need to kind of have Of a glossary of all these internet
acronym. So we can understand what's
happening, you know, in cyberspace.
And so, it's always this list is the list again, back with is
like, like 2,400, like 2400 Akron.
It's amazing. How many goes on Brady pages.
And like some of them are things you've heard of and then other
ones, like you think maybe someone, you know, some FBI
agent had like a 14 year old kid and said, You know, I'm on this
team that's researching the internet.
Can you like tell me, what kind of acronyms you and your friends
use? And that kid just made up a
bunch of things, you know? And just said, here is a dad or
a mom hears, like you're some. We use all the time.
And so at any rate we are we are I sort of went through this
document picked out my my does grandma two dozen or so favorite
ones. And then work with mad Willie to
kind of just do this type of graphic, kind of guessing game
where I'm at front. It says the FBI guide to
internet slang and then there's a little introduction of the
beginning. That sort of says it's from the
FBI's intelligence for research support unit particular an 83
page glossary with 2800 entries. It had a lol and OMG but it also
have ones that were more obscure like I hide in, y WT, M, Wy, B
Imad, anyone? Want to guess what that?
It means if I tell you what this means, will you buy me a drink?
Which evidently people say on the internet.
So and then there's some, you can sort of guess this is
rolling on the floor for no apparent reason.
You know, this is you someone they know this went to naked in
front of computer and so on at any rate, the joy that I had
with this was I said to me, Matt was come up with a custom custom
type basis for this exercise and he was inspired by this.
Having seen a couple of news stories about FBI raids and
markings at FBI, people use the FBI agents use on their jacket.
Says, they kind of go into action and what's weird is that
they're these, you know, there's that doesn't seem to be any
consistent brand. You know, brand standards for
how the FBI. Writes those three letters FDI
in the back of their jackets. And so he sort of extrapolated
to typeface families from that. I a San serif one that's called
Edgar and a slab. Serif Juan and a second.
That's called Clyde Bender. Being Jagger Hoover and Clyde
being. His longtime associate that are
the, and the two of them were Partners both professionally and
perhaps even romantically some say, but at any rate, our the
whole thing kind of what goes together and then, you know, the
very last one, is the list goes on, wipe that in the very back,
it's sort of. If you want to try to guess,
then you can but then it explains what they all are
there. And so, Um this was sort of a
cell you know the only client I had what's my 13 partners and I
knew of even if they thought my idea was stupid.
They appreciate maths maths talent and Amy just put a link
to it if you want to see it and if you want a copy of it there's
a way to will send you a copy. All you have to do is make a
donation of any size, whatsoever to the Electronic Frontier
Foundation, which is a nonprofit organization.
That fights for privacy and privacy and transparency on the
internet and has been doing it for years.
And, you know, we don't keep any of that money.
We just pass it all on. Now, you just make a donation of
them, send us proof of the donation.
The donation can be a dollar. Ten dollars, a hundred dollars
fifty cents. Whatever you want will send you
a copy if you want it. So thank you for asking about
that. I got to talk about typography
and work and a little print. Go to in the midst of talking
about all these big al they guys this yeah, I wanted to give you
my friend a little opportunity to practice your sharing to
everyone else. So I figured we do that with a
fun project that goes in but your biggest projects you have
in front of you, is your daughter's wedding.
So I think what you've given us today is just the beauty of your
journey and the story and talking about how we evolved and
think about success in the work that we do.
And I hope it's been helpful for those who are listening
listening about it, a really getting into the inner workings
of how you make your partnership work because we all are working
a Partners in spaces in there were doing good work together
and they think you know you've had some gray kind of stories to
talk about what's unique to you but also some things that I
think other people can take away and then how we engage with
clients in our new world. Now that's really in the
intersection of design and business.
So I would love to give you the last word, my friend, if there's
anything you have for our growing design, Business
Leaders, right? Because we see that this is a
growing part of our economy and World.
Any, any advice you have the only advice I would have, but I
think Benny you sort of set it up, really nicely in the way you
you kind of articulated kind of a summing up.
A lot of times people try to figure out what the difference
is between design and art and there are many differences, but
one of them is that art is something you can do alone.
Basically, you can go off by yourself.
Self and create based on your own Vision, your own
imagination. If you choose to practice design
in any form whatsoever at any level whatsoever in any style
whatsoever for any reason whatsoever, you're enlisting and
something that's Prime, that's a social activity.
You know, you will need collaborators clients Partners,
people at every level to kind of both support you and who will
depend on you for support and You know, in in a capitalist
Society business is one of the ways we structure those
relationships, you know, how much your client is going to pay
you for the work, you're doing what you have to do, in order to
get paid, right? How much you're going to be paid
by your boss, how much you as a manager will compensate, the
people that are contributing to your team, right?
But I think people tend to reduce business to Dollars and
cents and really that's an important part of it.
But just as Important are the way we learn to to modulate and
have productive and even joyful relationships with people, you
know, that, that I'm really productive, but actually bring
energy and put some good in the world, right.
And I think, in a way anyone talking about business and
design is really talking, they're using that the language
of business. As a way really to address these
larger interpersonal and larger societal issues that I think
comprise the context of the work that we inevitably have to do
and that's what makes this sort of conversational pouring.
That's what makes this conference important.
That's always been that the very best thing about aiga as an
organization. That was why when I found out
about it back in the 70s, I became such an enthusiastic
supporter. Then that's why I've devoted so
much time to it. It really provided a framework
for exploring what those relationships.
A ships could be at their very best.
I think I think that's a great way to end our conversations
today with Michael Beirut designer aiga medalist Mentor
champion of industry and growth lecturer and and speaker at Yale
and most importantly dead on the hook design for the wedding.
Thank you. Yeah, we're seeing lots of
stuff. Yeah, I need Well, thank you for
your sincerity and Candor and humor, and bringing the FBI
project to life. Thank you for sharing that my
pleasure, Benny, thank you. This has been great.
I really enjoyed a good luck, everyone.
Enjoy the conference, enjoy the conference.
Thank you all for joining us for this fireside chat.
I look forward to catching you if you later during the
conference and internet tomorrow's conversation the
Revolt. Thank you Michael.