1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Welcome to aiga is fireside chat. 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,000 This is day two of the 2022, aiga design and business 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,500 conference. Thank you for joining us for 4 00:00:09,500 --> 00:00:13,200 this Fireside, and for the conference, please connect with 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,400 us and share your thoughts. The hashtags are aiga design and 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,600 GA DB conf. Now it is my pleasure to welcome 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,000 Vinnie of Johnson AIG is executive director and today's 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,700 guest Michael Beirut partner pentagram Benny. 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,500 Thank you. Amy and good morning and 10 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:35,400 welcome. Everyone, really, I should 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,000 greetings. We have guests joining us from 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,600 all around the globe, which is really exciting for our day, two 13 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:46,100 of the aiga 2020 to design a business conference. 14 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:49,900 This conference is a unique opportunity for us to look at 15 00:00:49,900 --> 00:00:53,100 the power of design as it intersects with business in the 16 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:56,100 world around us. This is a really special 17 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,900 conversation. Our Guest today needs, no. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Duction. But that's why I'm going to give 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,900 him an introduction, so that you can understand the present, the 20 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:12,400 passion, and the magnitude. My guest today has had on design 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,800 and our larger design business Community. 22 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:18,600 Our Guest today is Michael Beirut partner of pentagram. 23 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:23,700 Michael Beirut is a graphic designer extraordinaire a design 24 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:29,500 critic, an educator, a servant leader, in his profession, he's 25 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:33,100 an AI. AGA medalist and serve both as 26 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,000 president of our New York Chapter and president emeritus 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,200 of aiga national. He has served in several leading 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,700 organizations in helping to push design business culture forward. 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,400 He's been a part of the cooper-hewitt national Design 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,600 Awards and he's been the Henry wolf resident in graphic design 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,700 at the American Academy in Rome, serving as a senior critic in 32 00:01:57,700 --> 00:01:59,800 graphic design at Yale is electrical. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,500 Practice of design and management both at Yale School 34 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:05,300 of Art in the Yale School of Management. 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,900 He's the co-founder of the website design Observer and has 36 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:13,400 written numerous volumes his monograph. 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,800 That we'll talk about a little later today is simply entitled, 38 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:18,700 what? I love, how to use graphic 39 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:22,400 design to sell things, explain things, make things look better, 40 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:26,600 make people laugh, make people cry and every once in a while 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,500 change the world today, I like to welcome my And Michael Bay 42 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:35,000 root welcome to the Fireside. Hi, Benny, happy to be here. 43 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,400 Happy to be here with everyone. Well, it's, it's really great 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,900 when we talk about kind of leadership and service for a 45 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:48,000 community, you know, it's incredible, just over the years, 46 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,600 your commitment, your name always pops up and even this 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,300 morning our friend Cheryl hell are. 48 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:57,800 Our last medalist mentioned in a quote, she shared online a photo 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,800 and article of your service on aig's very first diversity task 50 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,300 force. And this was some almost 40 51 00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:08,600 years ago, and we talked about, you know, showing up in 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,100 leadership in action and it was a great reminder that Cheryl 53 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:14,800 gave all of us. But to talk about, you know, 54 00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:17,300 what service has meant to you in the profession. 55 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,000 I like to start up a little different than we talked before, 56 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,100 but I love to start off with bad about how you've come to feel 57 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:25,700 about your role in helping the industry. 58 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:31,400 Many, thanks for that kind introduction. 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:39,900 And, and for that question, I think one of it's interesting. 60 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:47,200 I bet that's one of the things that has always motivated me as 61 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,800 a designer. And I think as a, as a person 62 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,500 who works as a designer is, both my sense that I'm really 63 00:03:55,700 --> 00:04:00,600 privileged in a lot of different way, Is but privileged in a way 64 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,300 that perhaps is shared by many of the people on this call in 65 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:10,000 that, I discovered early on that, there was something that I 66 00:04:10,008 --> 00:04:13,700 love to do that, I was good at and then found that I could, you 67 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:15,800 know, make a life doing that thing. 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,399 And, you know, people will Define that in different ways. 69 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,200 In my, for someone in my generation, they would probably 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,600 finding you were good at doing something like drawing and 71 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,600 creating art then discovering. There was a, you know, That you 72 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,200 didn't have to do that on Saturdays, you could actually 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,900 not only do it, you know, as a job for a living but also do it 74 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,700 in a way that could affect the lives of other people that could 75 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:41,500 enter their worlds in different ways. 76 00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:48,700 And but I also, you know, when I made that Discovery back in, you 77 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:52,900 know, ancient history times, you know, back in the 60s and 70s 78 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:56,000 and Suburban Cleveland, I was surrounded and no one around me 79 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:58,600 was in that, you know, I mean they could sort of appreciate a 80 00:04:58,608 --> 00:05:02,100 kid who knew how to draw, but like the idea that right know 81 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,300 that there was some, you could make a living doing something 82 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:08,000 other than working in the Ford plant or, you know, work in a 83 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,800 barber shop or a butcher shop or something like that or being 84 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,300 something that kind of was, you know, like a doctor or a lawyer, 85 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,500 you know, professions that would show up in picture books, you 86 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:21,600 know, no one knew anything about like the idea of, you know, 87 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,300 working as a professional quote-unquote graphic designer 88 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,900 and you know, A lot of things that motivate me, you know, have 89 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:35,000 always been my remembering what, it was like being surrounded by 90 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,300 people who sort of didn't understand or care that much 91 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:41,500 about the things that I was passionate about and my desire 92 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:43,900 to kind of open up those worlds took them. 93 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:47,500 So I think one of the things that I be, that I got almost 94 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:50,600 good at buying a Sessa tea was explaining. 95 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,300 What design was in terms that non-designers could understand. 96 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:57,200 I'm married to a non-designer. My mom and dad were non His 97 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,200 might for young adults older in their own desires from some 98 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,700 hemmed in, on all sides. By people who not only, you 99 00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:07,100 know, they understand what I do. They're actually very healthily 100 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:10,600 skeptical about what I do. They're my fiercest critics, 101 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,500 right? They will sort of you know I've 102 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:17,100 got a my famous younger God or as often said you're doing that 103 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:19,300 thing, you always do Dad where you're taking something, 104 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:23,800 tweaking it and saying there. I fixed it for you in the 105 00:06:23,808 --> 00:06:26,700 process right now of Designing for wedding invitations. 106 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:31,700 So So taking that role on is both dad and designer. 107 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:35,100 Yeah it's not glad. I think I should give you credit 108 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:37,400 for that but I don't know. Yeah, yeah. 109 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,500 I do a credit or sympathy whatever you want. 110 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:45,400 But I do think that on that part of I think what? 111 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,900 What my part of what my journey was was in a way. 112 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:53,600 Interestingly enough, this is going to say, it's going to 113 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,900 sound oxymoronic lie, like bragging, but I think the older 114 00:06:56,900 --> 00:07:01,100 I Gotten the more humility. I've acquired about the role 115 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:03,400 that people who do what we do quiet. 116 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,600 You know, when I know when I first graduated design school, I 117 00:07:06,608 --> 00:07:10,600 sort of thought, you know, why doesn't the world know, why does 118 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,000 the world know or care about this thing? 119 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,100 That I spent five years studying, there's something 120 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,200 wrong with them and this is my job to go out there and just 121 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,500 bang their heads together to go. I really realized what a genius. 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 You know, I and my colleagues are in that we kind of possess 123 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,700 these special gifts and then you Really realize that you have to 124 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:32,300 reach people that you know that that's you know preaching at 125 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:36,200 them and kind of looking down at them and you know, kind of 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,800 trying to quote-unquote, you know, teach them about the 127 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,100 importance of design. You have to like to live it and 128 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,600 demonstrate and do it in ways that are relevant to their 129 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,500 lives. And the way that they live and 130 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:51,700 be prepared to fail, be prepared to be misunderstood be prepared 131 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:55,600 to listen to people as they're telling you, what reactions, 132 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,000 they're having or not. Of the work that you're doing. 133 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,800 And I think, you know, learning how to listen and learn how to 134 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,700 learn from that has been probably the, you know, the 135 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:07,400 thing that actually made the biggest difference for me in the 136 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,000 thing in fact that I got out of bed service, it's funny. 137 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,000 I remember, really clearly what a revelation that conference was 138 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,100 that Cheryl was talking about that. 139 00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:20,900 Very first wives, graphic design, 98%, white conference 140 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:25,800 that I think must have happened maybe in the early 90s or so it 141 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,300 was a long time. Time ago and it was just 142 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,500 revelatory to me. It really was tight. 143 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:35,100 I can remember, I can remember where I was sitting in our room. 144 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:37,900 I remember, you know, how the chair felt on her my, but I 145 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:40,200 really have a really clean muscle set of memory of that out 146 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:43,299 of that event. And again, it was a learning 147 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:47,800 experience, not a Neo now platform for me, certainly, but 148 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:53,200 it's just a place for me to to enlarge my own view about what, 149 00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:55,400 you know, what rolled our profession could play in 150 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,400 advancing the world. Lars. 151 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:01,600 So, you know what's interesting to me is when you talk about, 152 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:04,500 you know, being in Ohio, in studying graphic design and 153 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:08,900 being in Cincinnati, there were people around you, who created 154 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:13,100 kind of Pathways for you, who were mentors, and it's came to 155 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:15,300 see that you've abused over your career. 156 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,100 You've adopted that same role for many other people do space 157 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,300 in there, but take me back to Cincinnati. 158 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:24,500 You know, when you were there what does success look like for 159 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:25,800 you? What did you think? 160 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,600 Success would be When you were studying graphic design and 161 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,700 Cincinnati. And in your early days I had a 162 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:39,100 almost. I did a dangerously narrow view 163 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:43,700 of success, you know? I mean, I think I have, I think 164 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:45,200 hidden away in my attic somewhere. 165 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,900 There's a journal from this, that I kept back in the 70s, in 166 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:49,700 high school, through college Wi-Fi. 167 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:51,600 God help me. I think, I've somewhere, in 168 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,900 there in my, you know, teenage handwriting other words, you 169 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:59,400 know, I want to be a Amos graphic designer, and in this is 170 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,400 like, you know, and also, I just wanted to qualify that, and make 171 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,200 it sound, not quite so stupid or embarrassing, you know? 172 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:10,400 No, one ever heard of famous graphic design was back. 173 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,500 Then, you know, the Wonder, you know, I learned, I know, I 174 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:16,300 believe any, I can't even figure out how I came to know what 175 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:19,600 their names were pre-internet. You know, I think I, you know, 176 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,300 Milton Glaser and just published a book called Milton, Glaser 177 00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:26,100 graphic design, that my mom God bless her. 178 00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:30,400 To find a Downtown department store in Cleveland and give it 179 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,500 to me for as a Christmas present. 180 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:35,200 And so great, you know, Milton Glaser is most famous graphic 181 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,900 designer in the world to me and and I just like, wanted to do 182 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:42,000 what he did. And I just, you know, I think, I 183 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,500 mean, I think one of my biggest dream was if someone was 184 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:48,200 standing in a record store, flipping through covers, you 185 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,000 know, they would come to one that I had designed and turn it 186 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,400 over and think this is cool. I want to buy this record and 187 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,800 Yeah, because that'd happen to me many times and I knew the 188 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600 names of record cover designers as much as I knew the names of 189 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,600 the people playing instrument Daniel. 190 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,900 Grayson, ohh. That's how nerdy I was. 191 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,900 I want to be one of those guys that looks sort of like, you 192 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:10,600 know, I can't play an instrument, but you can sort of 193 00:11:10,608 --> 00:11:14,000 be and say, hey, I'm with the band, I designed her and there 194 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,100 was close enough for me. I think that was sort of what 195 00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:18,300 success look like. So, if that's my measure of 196 00:11:18,308 --> 00:11:20,600 success, I'll point out that I've never designed a record 197 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,700 cover or even a CD, cover an MP3 cover or anything like that. 198 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:27,600 Unlike my partner, Paul was share who Will you know who 199 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,400 knows that it will be chewy will say, polish are famous designer 200 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:37,400 of Boston's first debut, album cover, you know, she lives in 201 00:11:37,408 --> 00:11:41,400 constant dread of that famously. So I live vicariously through 202 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:42,600 her. As far as that goes. 203 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,900 There you go. So so skip ahead. 204 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:48,400 I'm going to keep on this theme of thinking about success, so 205 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,200 now we move to the early 90s and you're a pentagram, what was 206 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,300 your definition of success? Then why I think I Leo. 207 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:04,100 Um, I may have kind of had a sword for it, kind of like I was 208 00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:07,200 a little bit of a late bloomer, I sort of had a delayed, I guess 209 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,000 Adelaide maturity in a way. Because in between graduation 210 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,600 and joining pentagram, I worked for 10 years for, you know, 211 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,700 probably the key Mentor. I had on my wife, Massimo 212 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:22,600 vignelli a legendary designer who was president of aiga 213 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,100 President of Ozzy sort of like one of those names that I knew 214 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:34,700 and Who was a hero and role model of mine and and who ran an 215 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,300 office very much like an Italian, in a way that I think 216 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:42,800 probably is almost, you know? See, you know, historic model 217 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,800 was not really operant anymore. You know? 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,400 You would approve virtually Apprentice yourself to a man, 219 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,100 like Ben Yahweh and learn the trade through that process, 220 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:56,400 right? And when I joined pentagram, at 221 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,200 the end of Arc. You know I really my goal was 222 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,500 just to figure out what kind what my design and writing was 223 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:05,800 what kinds of things I was precipitation. 224 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,400 And Benny, if I made 11 misapprehension, I had that I 225 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,400 think would still be relevant. In anyone listening. 226 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Now is that? I remember thinking, I want to 227 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,100 figure out what my kind of visual design style is. 228 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,900 I would look at it designers, who I admire, and I would think, 229 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:29,200 you know, You know, you can tell a Milton Glaser. 230 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,400 You can tell when April Grime and you can tell a Polish are, 231 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,700 you know, by, you know, by the typefaces they used and their 232 00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:39,600 color sense and what they're, you know, what kind of visual 233 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,200 probe say incorporate into their work. 234 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,400 And I thought, I thought it's my responsible not to develop a set 235 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,500 of things that people would say, oh, you know, he's telling 236 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:50,000 Michael, they room design and instead, that's the wrong way to 237 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,600 do it. The thing that I realized was 238 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,600 what you need to do is just find out what subjects your Preceded. 239 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,000 What, what, what are you curious about, what excites you, what 240 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,000 people, you know, if you're in a room with someone, where do you, 241 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:09,300 you know, where can you draw the energy, and an inspiration from 242 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:11,900 those people and when how can you contribute to that energy 243 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,200 and inspiration? So it's got almost nothing to 244 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400 do. Sort of can't force the, you 245 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,200 know, thinking about the, the work is important, but thinking 246 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,700 about kind of that craft as the starting point for me, at least 247 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:26,700 it was just sort of like it just got a backwards. 248 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,700 It's I just kind of learned when I look back at work, I had done 249 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:32,900 particularly in those days. The things that I judged as the 250 00:14:32,908 --> 00:14:37,800 most successful were things were I just connected with the 251 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,900 problem with the subject, I cared about the mission of the 252 00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:43,200 organization. I Vibe with the people who are 253 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,400 representing it in. There are other things why we 254 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,400 just sort of discharging or you know, my responsible 255 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,800 professional role doing a good job but you know I would look at 256 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,800 those things and things all you can really tell best not 257 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,600 something that I cared as much about and Think I'm, you know, 258 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,400 and and the lesson that I drew from, that was the more things 259 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,800 you can do more things. You care about the more things, 260 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,800 you can get excited about the more things you can get serious 261 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,100 about the more access. You'll have to, to a world of 262 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,000 things that you can participate in, you know, in some people are 263 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,900 Specialists. They just, you know, their 264 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:18,800 interest is, you know, Stay Fashion or their interest is 265 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,000 sports, and they sort of like, you know, kind of plow a fairly 266 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,700 narrow road through that, which I think is perfect. 267 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,400 A ballad, if that's what your passion is. 268 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,400 I've always been, you know, had a really broad you know, 269 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,500 capacity for spreading my attention around even too thin 270 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:39,500 sometimes and just ended up, I think coming into the nineties, 271 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:43,000 realizing that if I got a call from someone and they would say, 272 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000 can you do some graphic design for me? 273 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,100 I would use as an excuse to kind of, you know, go underground 274 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:51,600 into their world. And you know why I'm in? 275 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,900 So I can find myself in, you know, football locker rooms or 276 00:15:55,900 --> 00:16:00,000 Newsroom. Soare, you know, scientific 277 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,000 Laboratories, you know, better than without being good at 278 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,300 sports, having taken a journalism class or getting 279 00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:10,700 anywhere Beyond Biology one suddenly, you know, I'm in rooms 280 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:14,900 where people are purporting to decode, you know, the genome so 281 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,400 they can cure cancer and trying to explain it to me, so I can 282 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,300 explain it to someone else who like me doesn't understand it, 283 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:23,200 you know, so that idea of kind of using it. 284 00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:27,000 That's so kind of realizing that it's not so much about being a 285 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,200 cool typeface although I love a cool type base as much as any of 286 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:36,300 the 79 people on this call that sort of is the thing that will 287 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,900 come naturally. If you can get engaged and 288 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:43,500 excited and energized by the subject matter, and the work and 289 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:46,900 the interplay of personalities, and the Ambitions that everyone 290 00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:50,100 shares about putting something out in the world. 291 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,500 I think it's interesting. Even in hear your conversation. 292 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:56,700 I'm seeing a throughput of this evolution of starting off. 293 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,200 It was about you, right? It was about the designer, as 294 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,800 the, this is what I'm doing. This is my signature space. 295 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,300 You have the similar thing in architecture or music. 296 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:09,400 You can tell I've gone from produced by producer, but the 297 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,900 shift even in your language in the storytelling where it 298 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,300 doesn't become about you, but it becomes about you diving into 299 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:19,300 the client in diving into the subject matter and those 300 00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:24,500 interests and ultimately that making you a better designer, 301 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,500 and I'll extend our conversation. 302 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,200 To say also partner in moving in, in the work that you have. 303 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,400 So when you let's talk a bit about pentagram, which is, you 304 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,400 know, goes about saying is world's largest design 305 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,600 organization of its type. But you're really interesting 306 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,100 model in this sense that you're a collection of Partners in 307 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:49,500 which your partners are the owners but they're also the 308 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:53,500 drivers of the work, right? That's a bit about how it 309 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:55,700 because for those who are listening and we're streaming in 310 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:58,600 our audiences in there. They're experiencing various 311 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,500 different types of business models in spaces and and this is 312 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,100 a unique one in which you have this kind of ultimate partner 313 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:08,600 lattice yeah, well together. Yeah, yeah, Benny that's a 314 00:18:08,608 --> 00:18:14,300 really good question and in fact I sort of would in some ways 315 00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:17,200 it's completely unique and I have trouble even explaining it 316 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,900 to practice. Probably we partner is about me 317 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,300 and my partner's and I will disagree about what the model 318 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:25,900 really is and what he answered but are sometimes that sort of 319 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:26,900 makes it interesting. NG. 320 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,800 But in some ways I think would be familiar nearly to any 321 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,100 professional. Who's on this call in that when 322 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:38,900 it was started by the original five designers who began at 323 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,800 nearly 50 years ago. This June it'll be 50 years ago 324 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,900 in June next. Just next month. 325 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:50,500 Their idea was that, you know, they wanted to combine the 326 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:55,500 virtues of a very small model of practice led by a single person 327 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,400 working. Closely with some helpers where 328 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,700 that person not so much because so they could have total 329 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:04,400 control. I don't think but so they could 330 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:08,600 they could focus on engaging with the work and engaging with 331 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,800 those things that I was talking about earlier that I find 332 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,800 exciting, you know. So they're never put in a 333 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,700 position where there's managing, you know huge groups of people. 334 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,600 It's just kind of a handful of people a dozen or so let's say 335 00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:24,600 and I think the what they learned was you can only go so 336 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,600 far with that small model. And And when they joined 337 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200 together as five and named it Panna G after that, five-sided 338 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,200 shape, that more or less described was the org chart 339 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,400 because none of them were the boss. 340 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,500 They were all equals, they all preserve their autonomy. 341 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,500 So they, you know, they would hire their own teams, pick their 342 00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:47,200 own clients, then pool, the the income and share the profits 343 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,800 equally shared the overhead, you know, five living more cheaply 344 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,700 than any one of them could live on their own. 345 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,100 You know, that model became the pentagram model and then, you 346 00:19:56,100 --> 00:20:00,800 know, The outside world, you know, client who might be 347 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,200 reluctant to hire any one of those five individuals because 348 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,500 they just like alone, helpless freelancer would have more 349 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:12,300 confidence with you know the body of work than the size of 350 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:16,800 the office that they were able to command back then in the UK 351 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,900 in the 70s and going into the 80s today, it's 23 Partners, you 352 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,500 know, in Austin Berlin, and London, and New York here. 353 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,600 In New York, I have Nine Partners. 354 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,300 So there are 10 of us and all and it still works according to 355 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,200 the same model. However, so I have like, say, a 356 00:20:33,208 --> 00:20:37,600 dozen people who work on my team, we work on a lot of things 357 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,500 independently, we're able to take on something as small as a 358 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:43,800 book cover and as large as a Big Brand identity, but then we were 359 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,000 able to also collaborate with each other as partners combine, 360 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,900 our teams, within offices across offices and work in a big open 361 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:54,100 plan to encourage that sort of cross. 362 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,600 Fertilization, it always amazes me. 363 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,400 Of the breadth of the work that you do. 364 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,600 When I'd see it show up in these, like really intimate 365 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:04,400 start up small projects and I'm thinking there's no way in the 366 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,300 world that pentagram is working on this. 367 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,100 We get you are. Yeah. 368 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:11,300 And then there's these kind of big earth-shattering projects 369 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,000 that you see that you would expect a big is facing and I 370 00:21:14,008 --> 00:21:16,900 think that's there's some there's some incredible value if 371 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,000 we think about design and business and work that you can 372 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,700 have that flexibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 373 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,700 I think it's all because of this model that was set up by these 374 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,600 these five You know these five individuals back when I was in 375 00:21:28,608 --> 00:21:32,200 the ninth grade and Ohio you know so I had nothing to do with 376 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,900 it but it's remarkable how much you know sort of the basic 377 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:37,700 precepts of the working arrangement. 378 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:40,800 They establish their own has endured you know half a century 379 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,300 later and certainly you know it's there are many aspects of 380 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:48,300 it that are ripe for change. Those were you know maybe 381 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,200 predictably and of the most tiresome possible way those were 382 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,300 five white guys back then and it was a lot of guys and a lot of 383 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:59,200 white guys for a long time. Now, I think we're fortunate in 384 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,100 this office of the 10th Partners, you know, half of us, 385 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:07,100 are women, people of color and and I think that will allow that 386 00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,800 inevitably just has to kind of keep recalibrating and you know 387 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,400 it happens with the staff at its can happen. 388 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,800 At the partner level is going to happen at every level and it 389 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,300 doesn't happen by accident. You have posted and the 390 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,500 intentional about it and thinking of being intentional. 391 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,900 So with 23 Partners, you end up having almost 23 teams how do 392 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,700 you create Eight a dynamic exchange between the partners 393 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,900 and no sub teams. It's actually it's fairly 394 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,900 complicated to something we talked about and sometimes argue 395 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:41,100 about because it's sort of your kind of balancing two things 396 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:46,000 that are, you know that great nations. 397 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:47,700 Are you about all the trash? Great. 398 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,500 The Supreme Court tries to figure out the difference 399 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:51,900 between, what's to be controlled by individuals. 400 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,600 I should be controlled by state switch control by at the 401 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,000 national level, right? And I think, That, you know, 402 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,600 here in this little old partnership, you know, trying to 403 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,100 figure out how you balance. You know, the, you know what 404 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:08,900 benefit we what we owe the collective than what benefit 405 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,000 derived from the collective, versus what any one of us can do 406 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,200 individually is, you know, that's sort of has been since 407 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,000 1972. One of the things that they've 408 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,600 gone back and forth about and I think now, and I think relevant 409 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,900 to, you know, anyone on this call regardless of whether they 410 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,800 were Born in the 50s like me or born in the, in the art store 411 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,200 the 90s for whenever they were and where we're going there in 412 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,900 their career. I think one of the things that 413 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:42,300 really has changed dramatically is that we are also now, you 414 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,500 know, trying to figure out how we balance. 415 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,200 You know, the individual Ambitions and individual 416 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,900 profiles of each of the each of the designers that work for us, 417 00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:55,000 each of the designers of my team, who are talented and 418 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,100 ambitious, who have You know, you know, when I mean, one of 419 00:24:00,108 --> 00:24:03,400 the reasons that I kind of just showed up to work for Massimo 420 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,100 vignelli was no one had ever heard. 421 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:08,400 You know, I thought I was a very designer but I was the only 422 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,100 person in New York who had that opinion. 423 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,800 Even my wife was a little bit if he on it but you know, but like 424 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,600 and am Daniela. Thought I was good enough to 425 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,600 desire to work for him, but certainly exactly that good and 426 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,000 no better. And other than, you know, a few 427 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,500 people, no one had heard of me and that was going to be how it 428 00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,800 would be four years. There was no, you know, I didn't 429 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,600 have a social media. D account, or whatever, or 430 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,300 website, or any means of reaching the public and making 431 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,900 my work and my voice out, putting it out there. 432 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,100 Now, we live in a world where every single one of us has that 433 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:42,000 sort of access which I think is fantastic. 434 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,600 I think it's sort of enriches. You know. 435 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,700 It's I think the more that the idea of creative work being 436 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:56,500 something that isn't just the, the bailiwick of a high priest 437 00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:00,100 Of people who know who have been specially trained and, you know, 438 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,400 a certain kind of jargon. But rather something where 439 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,400 people feel they can participate in it. 440 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,700 And, you know, curious about it, learn about it, you know, do it 441 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:15,500 to a certain degree, even if that means the dark side of that 442 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:19,500 are, you know, logos for $20, or whatever these sites are that 443 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,400 can do that. I think that that's just part 444 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:28,600 of, that's just a byproduct of of having you No, you know, the 445 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,600 ability to create and make things more democratically 446 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,700 distributed. I think if we try to hog that 447 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,300 for ourselves, it's fatal. And I think that, if you managed 448 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:39,700 a firm of any size, one of the responsibilities you have, is 449 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:42,700 figuring out how you nurture, the people that are working for 450 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,500 you and how you respect their voices and how you respect the 451 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,700 pro, you know, how you sort of are conscious of and respect the 452 00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:51,100 profiles that they're building for themselves. 453 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,600 One of the things you shared with me that I thought was 454 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,300 really powerful, you talked about bringing your partner's. 455 00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:00,800 They're in how each year everyone shares a project that 456 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,600 was incredibly personally, meaningful for them. 457 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,800 I'd say, it's interesting you having a partnership 458 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,800 conversation, which, of course, you're going to talk about 459 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,600 profits and sharing them, but your concept of sharing isn't in 460 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,100 that the business space in there. 461 00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:14,800 But it's about what is the work that you've done this past year, 462 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,100 this personal meaningful? Yeah. 463 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:17,800 Yeah. Someone beg Benny. 464 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,900 You are the week after next. All of us are going to be 465 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,400 meeting together for Wednesday through Sunday. 466 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,300 We too have our body early meeting where I'll for the 467 00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:35,700 offices, the partners all coming together and we spend spend a 468 00:26:35,708 --> 00:26:38,200 couple of days just socializing and spending time with each 469 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,700 other because we all like each other and then we spend one one 470 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:49,300 day generally going through, you know, the mechanic the business 471 00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,400 mechanics of the partnership. And one of the things that I 472 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,200 think is fascinating pentagrams model and updated, and one of 473 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,800 the reasons it's Unique and Really dangerous. 474 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,900 So unique or rightly unique is that off because it's a 475 00:27:01,908 --> 00:27:05,900 partnership comprised entirely of working designers. 476 00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:10,100 It means that it's being run by people who all went to Art 477 00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:12,600 School. Basically, you know, effectively 478 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,100 and and further, run by people who may have bailed out of math 479 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:20,400 after algebra 2 or, you know, like me as as far as I went, I 480 00:27:20,408 --> 00:27:22,400 didn't take precalc or trigger anything. 481 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,600 So I've got a very shaky grasp on alive And now and she's 482 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,600 particularly. And then retained earnings is 483 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,200 something that will come up in the meeting. 484 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,900 I have no I still after 30 plus years don't quite understand 485 00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:38,900 what you mean. You know, it's okay my friend 486 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,500 because part of the new things we're doing at AIG a, we've got 487 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,400 courses to cover any events, sign me up. 488 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:48,800 I can get you. I can get you in to fill that 489 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,700 Gap but you're okay. God bless you guys. 490 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,700 Like I'm like I'm not sure about you my grave, my ruin my life, 491 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:57,000 you know, it might actually I've gotten this far just Used in the 492 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,700 force closing my eyes and the kind of like waving a lightsaber 493 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,000 around and actually paying attention of where the money is 494 00:28:03,008 --> 00:28:05,600 coming from what it's doing. Might actually miss of my by, 495 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,800 but we get together. Spend a day talking about 496 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,900 business. And then in the, you know, every 497 00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:18,300 day, we devote part of the days to kind of kind of conducting 498 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:20,100 like oh, a minister design conference. 499 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:25,600 Like as you said Partners will share work, that was important 500 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,400 to them. And the Year to go into depth on 501 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,000 a certain project maybe just give an idea of the breadth of 502 00:28:31,008 --> 00:28:33,700 the work that happens. Talk about challenges. 503 00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:37,000 They were facing or problems that they have and they're able 504 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,200 to do in a way that's very can be very Soul there in a way. 505 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,700 That's that's moving and inspiring. 506 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:50,100 And and I think we just as when I taught you, the u.s. a great 507 00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:55,200 question about, you know what I was, you know, the transition 508 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,400 that I went through in the These, when I first joined 509 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,300 pentagram, and sort of that balance between the work that 510 00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:02,900 you do. That's your output that 511 00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:04,800 represents. Sort of the visual, Mark, you're 512 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,500 leaving behind and kind of the ideas behind at the process that 513 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,900 went into it. The human, the human equation 514 00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:17,700 that both shape what the work turned out to be and what effect 515 00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:20,700 that work had in the world. You know, I think we use those 516 00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:24,800 conversations to get into those bigger issues as well and and 517 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,200 it's just, it's It's actually very daunting. 518 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,900 I think what's comical is that, not everyone, not all the 519 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,900 partners present every at every one of these meetings and sort 520 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:38,900 of do it about every other every third meeting. 521 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,400 And every time you, you learned that it's your turn to make one 522 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,700 of these presentations. Like, your first reaction is to 523 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:46,900 try to get out of it. I'm so pathetic. 524 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800 My first reaction was like, don't make me, I can't, I'll, 525 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,300 you know, I haven't done anything good in the past during 526 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:54,200 years. I just don't really remember 527 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,200 what happened during the pandemic. 528 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,800 And and then I said that to Emily Oldman here and she said 529 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,700 me too, you know, it's like, you know, can we all get out of it? 530 00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:08,500 Do we have to do this and then you learn that, that even if you 531 00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:12,700 sort of sort of, I mean, my plan is just to say, this is what 532 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:14,600 happened and these things were successful. 533 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,400 I think these things were less successful. 534 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,900 This was interesting for this reason but you know, failed for 535 00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:23,600 that reason and you know, I can do it in a way that I don't 536 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,000 think, you know, you would necessarily Really do in front 537 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,800 of an audience like this. Although I probably would at 538 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,000 this stage of the game, but I think it's, it's just, I mean, I 539 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,300 mean, and it happens here every day, choose one of the reasons 540 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:42,900 that I came to really appreciate pentagram was I just really 541 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:48,000 enjoy doing, you know, being around people, having be able to 542 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,300 kind of just walk by one of the designers desks and see 543 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:54,200 something on their screen. That's interesting. 544 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,300 And that person might work for a tiara or A person might work for 545 00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:01,500 her Itachi Chan and I could just say these were typefaces that or 546 00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:03,600 what photographer is that or how did you do that? 547 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,100 How did you do that? You know, that animation, you've 548 00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:09,000 got running there and I'd sit down and just explain it to me 549 00:31:09,008 --> 00:31:11,800 then I could wave someone over for my team who I think, you 550 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,100 know, we're working on a problem. 551 00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,600 I said here this is, you know, take a look at this. 552 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,200 This is really interesting, so that part of it just like a 553 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,000 great, it's like auditing nine master classes at once five days 554 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,200 a week, it's really great which is which is powerful, I'm going 555 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,100 to continue on something that we started to deal with, which is a 556 00:31:28,108 --> 00:31:32,700 little bit of creative tension. And I moved from the business 557 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,600 and your team site to the business in the client side. 558 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,100 You know, we're in a space with spend a lot of change. 559 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,600 How have you been thinking about in managing, the creative 560 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,900 tension between being in the room with the client right? 561 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,800 Which is so much a part of what those in this call but we all 562 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,400 kind of experience to this space where you can be in the room, 563 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,000 the client and that's okay, or you can't be in the room in the 564 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,900 client and that's okay. And and where is the, you know, 565 00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:02,500 where's the tension today? What are you seeing in terms of 566 00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:04,700 that affecting the work and your engagement? 567 00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:09,000 Yeah I'm great question and I think it's something that you 568 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,000 know I bet everyone on this call as thought about or talked about 569 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,300 in a way because I mean I remember if you would have asked 570 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:23,200 me in February in 2020, what my opinion of videoconferencing was 571 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,400 it was like my least favorite way to do design while you can 572 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,500 buy. If I heard that we were going to 573 00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:30,200 have to kind of be on it, we might be. 574 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,100 Had you on record saying that? Yeah, I feel like I just I just 575 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:35,500 thought it's a terrible way, you know. 576 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,800 A, I just hate that. Can we go down there and just 577 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,400 sit in a room and get this sort of event? 578 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,900 We have to, like, do this part official thing, wherever it's on 579 00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:48,000 TV and then, you know, March 16th rolled around it. 580 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200 By the end of that when we get everyone, everyone like new. 581 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,000 I'm sorry, you're on mute. I'm going to share my screen. 582 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,700 Can you see this? I'm going to try to go to full 583 00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:58,200 screen, okay? Is it is pants? 584 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,800 And can everyone see does everyone see a big red screen 585 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,600 that says what it says, you know today's date. 586 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,800 You know it's just kind of you know and and then I was two 587 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,900 years old and I think we got really good at it. 588 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:13,300 Quote a fall, but I found that one of the things that I got 589 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:15,600 good at that, I think my team got could have in them. 590 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,000 That when I looked around on my partner's, they seem to get good 591 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,200 at it too. Was, you know, you sort of 592 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,200 realize that every discussion in a way had to turn into a deck, 593 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,900 you know, a slideshow that would have 20 slides, 40 slides, you 594 00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:35,600 know how whatever number slides it had and and that meant that 595 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,300 Everything had to have this sort of linearity to it that, you 596 00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:42,600 know, that that made everyone kind of reframe the 597 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,800 conversation, as you know, a narrative like a, you know, a 598 00:33:46,808 --> 00:33:50,700 three act play or kind of may know, rising and falling action. 599 00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:53,800 And then everything is leading up to a moment where you're 600 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,100 trying to deliver to a kind of decision that you're trying to 601 00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:02,600 force and sometimes, All right. Well, I'm going to do that kind 602 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,600 of presentation when the, when the moments called for it. 603 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,699 I said I did it for years and years and years but other times 604 00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:11,900 you want to be in a room. You just want to walk into a 605 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:17,199 room and have it papered with the exploration that you did, 606 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,400 right? And just like, you know, there's 607 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,900 an arc of an architect that I'm shy. 608 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,100 I assume a lot of you have heard of named Frank gehry who we've 609 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,800 done some projects with and he has a way of working with 610 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,900 clients that I think is just Powerball and disarming and 611 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:36,100 explains why he gets to design those buildings which just if 612 00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:39,199 you look on their face they're completely risky and crazy 613 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,199 looking but he hates being in that room doing that 614 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,199 presentation. And he will say to the most 615 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,100 important client in the world, you know? 616 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:50,000 Okay, so we've looked at that screen, kind of just take you 617 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,100 back in the studio and show some of the stuff we're working on 618 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,600 and then he'll like literally just walk around the models and 619 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,400 say we try this first and but and you get and unless something 620 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,100 is going on that I've Ever seen rehearsed. 621 00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:06,000 It really looks as if he's simply as walking in and the 622 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,100 moment he walks in the work is as it's happening at a, you 623 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:14,300 know, at 11:37 on a Thursday morning and I owe a and and 624 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:17,100 he'll literally say, you know, one of the things with this 625 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,700 model here is that it just seemed, you know, the weight of 626 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:21,400 it seemed to be too much on the top. 627 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,900 So what if we here? Give me give me that knife. 628 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:27,800 And he'll literally take part of the building apart and just do 629 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,400 it right before people's eyes. And it's so, You know, it's the 630 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,700 exact, you know, even though he is the classic capital a 631 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:36,700 starchitect, right. Right. 632 00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:40,400 You know, he says he's been in the Simpsons, you know, he's 633 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,200 never dangerous, but like other hand, there's something so 634 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,200 personal and disarming and inviting about, you know, part. 635 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,000 It feel, you've been invited to participate in the design 636 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,600 process with someone and, and that's sort of what's impound 637 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,600 would so hard to do on. Zoom, you know, you can't have 638 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,200 that experience of being in the room and having that sort of 639 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,100 give and take that you can get watch, someone's reaction. 640 00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:07,100 I mean, the thing that I used to know, clearly I love making 641 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:12,400 speeches and I like the sound of my own voice to a fault, but I 642 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,600 sort of like learned that in a meeting. 643 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,900 You know, you're not, you know, you're not going to persuade 644 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:21,400 anyone to your point of view by talking louder and faster. 645 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,100 That doesn't work. You know you have to now I just 646 00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:27,500 learned ass like stop and say I can see a lot of confused faces 647 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:30,200 or you look like you really hate this idea, right? 648 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,500 I really hate it. Tell me why and we'll go from 649 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:35,000 there. And and people, you know, 650 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,000 somebody they say, you know, I just you know it really doesn't 651 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,400 work for me. I just like my least favorite 652 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,000 color and then and I've learned something really interesting 653 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,200 there if that's right, you know, you know, don't use a color but 654 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,500 I think you know, you don't learn anything by making 655 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:51,700 speeches, you learn things by asking questions and and and I 656 00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:55,000 think Zoom rewards people's ability to kind of make speeches 657 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,200 if you ask me. And I think it really is doesn't 658 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,500 give you the opportunity. Tuna to be in the room, have 659 00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:03,700 that give and take that, I think can be so productive in the 660 00:37:03,708 --> 00:37:06,300 design process. So, as we're coming back to 661 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:09,100 work, one of the things we're doing is you know as we're 662 00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,200 working in the office here, more face-to-face time, right? 663 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,000 That's between me and my design or as being my partner's, my 664 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600 designers and and their do you know the designers get a chance 665 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,300 to kind of exchange ideas. We get a chance to kind of 666 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,700 exchange ideas, that's healthy. And then, you know, yesterday, 667 00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:29,500 we made a trek out and sad face to face with a fairly new client 668 00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,700 that were working. And just being in the room with 669 00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:37,100 them and even looking around that room, looking at the things 670 00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:40,000 on the wall, looking at the books on the Shelf, looking at 671 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:46,900 the body language of who said we're who stood up who taught, 672 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,800 you know, who would get more animated in the conversation, 673 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,900 who sort of sat back and kind of stroke their chin. 674 00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:56,500 You know, you know you don't get any of that information. 675 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,000 You get very little that information on Zoom. 676 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:05,400 And you know, not having to get on a plane and fly for, you 677 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,100 know, travel for 5 hours for a hour. 678 00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:13,800 Long meeting is, uh, is is a useful thing to it gets good for 679 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,100 your health and it's good for the environment obviously. 680 00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:19,200 So I don't think it'll ever go away. 681 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,400 I just think it'll become one tool that will use along with 682 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,100 other person as we go forward. But there's a moment of 683 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,100 Discovery and you were talking about you know, kind of pre 684 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,300 Gimmick walking around and looking over her shoulder, a 685 00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,000 seeing an idea happening and kind of finding something in 686 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,600 there. So did you know, I live in DC. 687 00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:42,400 So it is the capital of bureaucratic efficiency, okay? 688 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,700 And in that, I learned that our English alphabet has 26 letters, 689 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,900 but there are countless combinations that we can put 690 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,200 them together to amaze and confuse us all. 691 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,800 And so, I want to talk to you about one that starts off with 692 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,800 with a combination of foia. And for those those who are 693 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,700 steeped in that, it's a Freedom of Information Act, which gives 694 00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:07,800 you access to government information, and you, and your 695 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,500 team came up with a brilliantly, crazy idea. 696 00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:13,900 And project that you worked on it. 697 00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:17,500 I would be remiss if we didn't talk about it for a second for 698 00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:20,000 those who are listening in, if you get a chance to check or 699 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,900 Google this Michael and his team took a document, the FBI it put 700 00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:31,600 together on internet slang and all of the Combinations of 701 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,900 letters and what they mean and you took that very bureaucratic 702 00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:38,800 efficient document and turned it into a beautiful jib talk. 703 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,400 A bit about how this crazy idea, came up, and how you took it and 704 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,300 turned it into this wonderful moment. 705 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,800 I be happy doing. In fact, I can hang on. 706 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,400 Give me white girl. With literally ten seconds. 707 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,600 I'll bring one in. I'll hold it off. 708 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,400 Okay, and you can s in that so is everyone sees? 709 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,200 This is the beauty of Fireside. We can pick up and Jump in right 710 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,600 there. I surprised Michael to talk 711 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,700 about about this project, so we'll get a chance to see it 712 00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:10,300 firsthand, all right? So every year pentagram does a 713 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,200 holiday card that we send out to our mailing was just for fun and 714 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,800 like, you know, and in the past few years between people being 715 00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:21,200 displaced from their usual, addresses and print being 716 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,300 potentially dead, and everything on the line, we weren't even 717 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:26,500 sure we should do this. I did have this idea, and part 718 00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:30,500 of the motivation of the idea is the newest partner in our Them 719 00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:33,300 in our New York office is a designer who some of you may not 720 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:37,000 may know named Matt Willie and that was four years. 721 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:43,200 The art director of The New York Times magazine and is, I think 722 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,700 he's the best one of the best typographers and and living 723 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:54,400 today and great type designer. If you've ever seen the TV show, 724 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,000 killing Eve. He did the main titles for that 725 00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:02,800 and he just he's just brilliant. And I thought, well, when I'd 726 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,400 like to, you know, I was on me to kind of come up with a 727 00:41:06,408 --> 00:41:08,400 suggestion for the holiday card. Could look like. 728 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,900 And I said, okay, the do something was based on 729 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:11,600 typography. That would be nice. 730 00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:18,600 And I remembered, when the Freedom of Information Act 731 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,900 uncovered this document from the FBI, which happened about five 732 00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:24,300 or six years ago, this story in Time, Magazine story in the 733 00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:27,100 Washington Post and basically it was when the internet was a 734 00:41:27,108 --> 00:41:30,000 little bit newer when Twitter was a knuth. 735 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:35,600 Newer thing and peered based on this document, which the FBI 736 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,300 don't see us ever really commented on, is that someone at 737 00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:42,500 the FBI was told, you know, we need to really research things 738 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:44,800 that are happening on the internet and they use a lot of 739 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:51,300 acronyms, like, you know, LOL and RT R OT L, you know, and 740 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:56,300 ROFL and BRB and stuff like that. 741 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,200 And you know, some of these might be Sinister something. 742 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,100 So we need to kind of have Of a glossary of all these internet 743 00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:03,900 acronym. So we can understand what's 744 00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,100 happening, you know, in cyberspace. 745 00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:11,500 And so, it's always this list is the list again, back with is 746 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:15,800 like, like 2,400, like 2400 Akron. 747 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,900 It's amazing. How many goes on Brady pages. 748 00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:22,100 And like some of them are things you've heard of and then other 749 00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:26,000 ones, like you think maybe someone, you know, some FBI 750 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,400 agent had like a 14 year old kid and said, You know, I'm on this 751 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,700 team that's researching the internet. 752 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:36,700 Can you like tell me, what kind of acronyms you and your friends 753 00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:38,400 use? And that kid just made up a 754 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,300 bunch of things, you know? And just said, here is a dad or 755 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,400 a mom hears, like you're some. We use all the time. 756 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:48,500 And so at any rate we are we are I sort of went through this 757 00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:54,300 document picked out my my does grandma two dozen or so favorite 758 00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:56,600 ones. And then work with mad Willie to 759 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,500 kind of just do this type of graphic, kind of guessing game 760 00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:02,900 where I'm at front. It says the FBI guide to 761 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,200 internet slang and then there's a little introduction of the 762 00:43:06,208 --> 00:43:09,400 beginning. That sort of says it's from the 763 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,200 FBI's intelligence for research support unit particular an 83 764 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,400 page glossary with 2800 entries. It had a lol and OMG but it also 765 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:27,200 have ones that were more obscure like I hide in, y WT, M, Wy, B 766 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,100 Imad, anyone? Want to guess what that? 767 00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:36,200 It means if I tell you what this means, will you buy me a drink? 768 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,400 Which evidently people say on the internet. 769 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,400 So and then there's some, you can sort of guess this is 770 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,000 rolling on the floor for no apparent reason. 771 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:53,500 You know, this is you someone they know this went to naked in 772 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:58,000 front of computer and so on at any rate, the joy that I had 773 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,000 with this was I said to me, Matt was come up with a custom custom 774 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,500 type basis for this exercise and he was inspired by this. 775 00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:13,900 Having seen a couple of news stories about FBI raids and 776 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:19,200 markings at FBI, people use the FBI agents use on their jacket. 777 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,400 Says, they kind of go into action and what's weird is that 778 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,800 they're these, you know, there's that doesn't seem to be any 779 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,300 consistent brand. You know, brand standards for 780 00:44:29,300 --> 00:44:31,700 how the FBI. Writes those three letters FDI 781 00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:36,100 in the back of their jackets. And so he sort of extrapolated 782 00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:41,500 to typeface families from that. I a San serif one that's called 783 00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:45,600 Edgar and a slab. Serif Juan and a second. 784 00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:54,900 That's called Clyde Bender. Being Jagger Hoover and Clyde 785 00:44:54,900 --> 00:45:02,000 being. His longtime associate that are 786 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,600 the, and the two of them were Partners both professionally and 787 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,400 perhaps even romantically some say, but at any rate, our the 788 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,700 whole thing kind of what goes together and then, you know, the 789 00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:15,000 very last one, is the list goes on, wipe that in the very back, 790 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,400 it's sort of. If you want to try to guess, 791 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,200 then you can but then it explains what they all are 792 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,000 there. And so, Um this was sort of a 793 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:27,100 cell you know the only client I had what's my 13 partners and I 794 00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:29,000 knew of even if they thought my idea was stupid. 795 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,100 They appreciate maths maths talent and Amy just put a link 796 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:38,200 to it if you want to see it and if you want a copy of it there's 797 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,600 a way to will send you a copy. All you have to do is make a 798 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:46,000 donation of any size, whatsoever to the Electronic Frontier 799 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,700 Foundation, which is a nonprofit organization. 800 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,900 That fights for privacy and privacy and transparency on the 801 00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:58,200 internet and has been doing it for years. 802 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,300 And, you know, we don't keep any of that money. 803 00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:04,700 We just pass it all on. Now, you just make a donation of 804 00:46:04,708 --> 00:46:06,100 them, send us proof of the donation. 805 00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:10,100 The donation can be a dollar. Ten dollars, a hundred dollars 806 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:11,500 fifty cents. Whatever you want will send you 807 00:46:11,508 --> 00:46:15,100 a copy if you want it. So thank you for asking about 808 00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:16,900 that. I got to talk about typography 809 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:20,600 and work and a little print. Go to in the midst of talking 810 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,400 about all these big al they guys this yeah, I wanted to give you 811 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,700 my friend a little opportunity to practice your sharing to 812 00:46:27,700 --> 00:46:30,300 everyone else. So I figured we do that with a 813 00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:33,700 fun project that goes in but your biggest projects you have 814 00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,200 in front of you, is your daughter's wedding. 815 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,500 So I think what you've given us today is just the beauty of your 816 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:45,100 journey and the story and talking about how we evolved and 817 00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:47,100 think about success in the work that we do. 818 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:48,900 And I hope it's been helpful for those who are listening 819 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,000 listening about it, a really getting into the inner workings 820 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,100 of how you make your partnership work because we all are working 821 00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:58,400 a Partners in spaces in there were doing good work together 822 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,900 and they think you know you've had some gray kind of stories to 823 00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:03,200 talk about what's unique to you but also some things that I 824 00:47:03,208 --> 00:47:07,100 think other people can take away and then how we engage with 825 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,100 clients in our new world. Now that's really in the 826 00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:12,100 intersection of design and business. 827 00:47:12,100 --> 00:47:15,300 So I would love to give you the last word, my friend, if there's 828 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:19,400 anything you have for our growing design, Business 829 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,900 Leaders, right? Because we see that this is a 830 00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:23,500 growing part of our economy and World. 831 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:26,700 Any, any advice you have the only advice I would have, but I 832 00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,400 think Benny you sort of set it up, really nicely in the way you 833 00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,300 you kind of articulated kind of a summing up. 834 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,000 A lot of times people try to figure out what the difference 835 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,900 is between design and art and there are many differences, but 836 00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:47,300 one of them is that art is something you can do alone. 837 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:48,900 Basically, you can go off by yourself. 838 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,900 Self and create based on your own Vision, your own 839 00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:55,600 imagination. If you choose to practice design 840 00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:59,100 in any form whatsoever at any level whatsoever in any style 841 00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:02,300 whatsoever for any reason whatsoever, you're enlisting and 842 00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:04,900 something that's Prime, that's a social activity. 843 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:11,100 You know, you will need collaborators clients Partners, 844 00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:15,300 people at every level to kind of both support you and who will 845 00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:21,000 depend on you for support and You know, in in a capitalist 846 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,600 Society business is one of the ways we structure those 847 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,700 relationships, you know, how much your client is going to pay 848 00:48:29,700 --> 00:48:32,300 you for the work, you're doing what you have to do, in order to 849 00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:35,000 get paid, right? How much you're going to be paid 850 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:39,100 by your boss, how much you as a manager will compensate, the 851 00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:41,200 people that are contributing to your team, right? 852 00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:45,000 But I think people tend to reduce business to Dollars and 853 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,700 cents and really that's an important part of it. 854 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:56,200 But just as Important are the way we learn to to modulate and 855 00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:04,000 have productive and even joyful relationships with people, you 856 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,100 know, that, that I'm really productive, but actually bring 857 00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:09,800 energy and put some good in the world, right. 858 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,500 And I think, in a way anyone talking about business and 859 00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:17,800 design is really talking, they're using that the language 860 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,400 of business. As a way really to address these 861 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,000 larger interpersonal and larger societal issues that I think 862 00:49:25,008 --> 00:49:29,000 comprise the context of the work that we inevitably have to do 863 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,300 and that's what makes this sort of conversational pouring. 864 00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:32,800 That's what makes this conference important. 865 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,500 That's always been that the very best thing about aiga as an 866 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:39,100 organization. That was why when I found out 867 00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:41,600 about it back in the 70s, I became such an enthusiastic 868 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,900 supporter. Then that's why I've devoted so 869 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:46,700 much time to it. It really provided a framework 870 00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:48,400 for exploring what those relationships. 871 00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:50,300 A ships could be at their very best. 872 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,100 I think I think that's a great way to end our conversations 873 00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:04,500 today with Michael Beirut designer aiga medalist Mentor 874 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:11,100 champion of industry and growth lecturer and and speaker at Yale 875 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,200 and most importantly dead on the hook design for the wedding. 876 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,100 Thank you. Yeah, we're seeing lots of 877 00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:22,100 stuff. Yeah, I need Well, thank you for 878 00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:27,100 your sincerity and Candor and humor, and bringing the FBI 879 00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:28,700 project to life. Thank you for sharing that my 880 00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:30,600 pleasure, Benny, thank you. This has been great. 881 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,100 I really enjoyed a good luck, everyone. 882 00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:34,400 Enjoy the conference, enjoy the conference. 883 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,100 Thank you all for joining us for this fireside chat. 884 00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:40,000 I look forward to catching you if you later during the 885 00:50:40,008 --> 00:50:42,600 conference and internet tomorrow's conversation the 886 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,000 Revolt. Thank you Michael.