1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,700 Jala, often, schranz shallows a leash on here where you at. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Did you know that an Italian an at symbol is called kill, Chilla 3 00:00:10,100 --> 00:00:15,000 a snail or German often schwantz a monkey tail and in Taiwan 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,200 where I'm from, we say shall Shew a little mouse. 5 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:22,500 I learned that and more in this book, by Michael arndt snails 6 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:26,500 and monkeytales a visual guide to punctuation and symbols. 7 00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:36,900 Hello. Hello everyone. 8 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:39,500 A good afternoon, good morning, good evening, wherever you are 9 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:42,500 in the world. This is another edition of 10 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:46,500 design future live from aiga, the professional association for 11 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:49,300 design. My name is Li Chen Wang and I am 12 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:52,900 here today with our very special guest Michael arndt who is an 13 00:00:52,900 --> 00:00:56,200 award-winning graphic designer and author based in New York 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,000 City. He is known for a signature 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,800 minimalist. I'll and in his spare time he 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,900 can be found online. Correcting other people's 17 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:04,800 punctuation. 'S. 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,800 And he's also coming to us from his apartment were, which he 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,800 shares with his dog, Clooney and Cat Greta. 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,300 So we might have an animal visit later, which could be fun. 21 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:15,900 But today, we're going to talk about Michaels new book, which 22 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:19,400 is coming out on March 22nd in North America. 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,900 It's this book. You can see here, both holding 24 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:25,400 it up snails and monkeytales, a visual guide to punctuation and 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,800 symbols. So Michael, thank you so much 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,400 for joining us today. Thank you. 27 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,000 Thanks. Sean Payton here. 28 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:34,000 So why don't we start with the title of the book is, it's kind 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,500 of a animal-themed book, but the book is really about symbols and 30 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:41,300 punctuation. Can you tell us about the 31 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:44,000 backstory of the book title? Sure. 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,300 So, I'm so I lived in Italy for four years. 33 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:52,000 After college, I taught English and one of my I taught English, 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,800 I'm sorry, two adults. And one of my students was 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,300 manager of a supermarket chain and even skin me, the And he 36 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:04,800 said your trailer as I killed her because, like, that's not 37 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,100 part of your name. Like and he's like, and I knew 38 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:09,300 that meant little snail. I like, when you mean he goes, 39 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,200 yeah, the little at symbol delay in the circle. 40 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:14,300 It's a killed. Sheila, and I thought he's just 41 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:17,000 being cute, but that that is what Italians call they call a 42 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,300 little snail or Kyoto Lena would be little and you can use either 43 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:22,600 one. And so that's when I first 44 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,800 learned of it that was years ago, decades ago and then when I 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,800 did the book and looked it up and it seems like in pretty much 46 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,400 as Michael Bay roots. As in the Ford pretty much, 47 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:33,800 we're the only ones have a boring name for that symbol. 48 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:36,100 Every other language seems to have some kind of cute and 49 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:39,400 Charming name. So in Italian, its future, in 50 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,200 German Itzhak insurance is also called La Mirada. 51 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,700 It's another type of monkey a little spider monkey that kind 52 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:49,500 of has a long curly tail. So they use both the most I 53 00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:51,300 could find out is that in Swiss German. 54 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:55,000 Nazis applesauce is more preferred, but they're both seem 55 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,400 to be used and the Dutch, I don't know the Dutch word for 56 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:59,800 it, but the judge also call the monkeys do. 57 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,500 Yeah, in Taiwan where I'm from. It's a little mouse show. 58 00:03:02,500 --> 00:03:04,700 Yeah, sure. So feel like it's all sorts of 59 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:07,000 like, animalistic sort of things, right? 60 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,800 And that makes sense because it's strudel in Israel, right? 61 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,200 Which is funny, because a friend of mine was from Israel. 62 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,800 My LinkedIn said, that's right. She's a, which is interesting 63 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,500 because it's not Israeli food, but, and they do the, I looked 64 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:27,500 up the Hebrew characters and they translator 8, it basically 65 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:30,100 goes through struggle and Evil. Ders. 66 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,800 Yeah, and then in Swedish it's cinnamon bun. 67 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:39,400 Countable, and the one I don't get is, it's a little duck in 68 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,800 Creek about hockey. And it's a little dog Sebastian 69 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,700 in Russian, which I'm not saying the dog or the further. 70 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:49,300 We see the dog. Yeah. 71 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,500 Or the duck duck. Seems strange. 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,800 Very cool. Well, it's zooming out a little 73 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,200 bit. How did you decide to write a 74 00:03:58,208 --> 00:04:01,800 book on punctuation? Symbols because there's so much 75 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,600 cool stuff going on in typography, in general, and 76 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,100 language in general, and we often sort of don't notice the 77 00:04:09,108 --> 00:04:11,200 punctuation, unless it's it's wrong. 78 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,200 As you mentioned, you like to correct other people's 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,500 punctuation. So, I focus a whole book on just 80 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:20,399 the punctuation symbols, right? Well, it kind of makes sense of, 81 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,200 you know, as a graphic designer. And then if you do my own 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,200 history. So I love language, I love like 83 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:29,400 that study, five different languages like Japanese French 84 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,900 Spanish. Italian, of course English and I 85 00:04:31,908 --> 00:04:35,100 taught Italian. So I mean, I taught English in 86 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:41,100 Italy so that really sensitize me to language and the details. 87 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:45,300 I also in my work, I also do freelance work in the 88 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:48,000 pharmaceutical industry. So every little scientific 89 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,800 notation every little commas space, period, mark is really 90 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,500 important can change the whole meaning that they can be Deco 91 00:04:56,500 --> 00:05:00,800 project. So that kind of Me very 92 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,500 eagle-eyed about punctuation and then it's typography. 93 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:08,000 It's there. When she blow them up, they just 94 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,300 become so beautiful. There's and the variety if you 95 00:05:10,308 --> 00:05:14,200 look at asterisks for example there's a spread my book that 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,600 has a whole field of asterisks and if you're listening to the 97 00:05:17,608 --> 00:05:24,400 podcast your own see it, but the variety present is just so 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,700 beautiful. You think I'm here it is. 99 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,400 Those are all real Asterix. I didn't modify them in all 100 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,500 different typefaces and sometimes they look like little 101 00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:38,600 stars, which is what the word means asterisk from some 102 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,700 athletes costs increase, which means Little Star. 103 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:45,700 So if you think of astronaut asteroid, the aster flower Belle 104 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:49,400 comes from the Greek star. And that's what this will stars 105 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,800 are a little snowflakes to. I liked the ones that look like 106 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:53,800 snowflakes. That's right. 107 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,500 Yeah. Because they can have anywhere 108 00:05:55,500 --> 00:06:00,500 from five points up to 10th even there's so many little stories 109 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:04,700 in here and backstory so only can have time for a few today 110 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:09,200 but I feel like the one about the pound sign or the hashtag is 111 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,600 very much like relevant to internet culture, I guess, 112 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,600 because we're using these hashtags every day, but it 113 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,900 actually goes. Our back. 114 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:22,300 Like, I remember them unlike the telephones, but then even before 115 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:22,700 that. Right. 116 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:24,600 There's a whole history. Can you tell us a little bit 117 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,300 about that story for sure. Yeah, it goes back to ancient 118 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:31,800 Roman times, so the word Libra that the kind of go back, I love 119 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,300 it and Balaji to that's this book is equal parts and analogy 120 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:38,700 who Parks history, equal parts, grammar is reports typography 121 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:42,900 and design. So I in this book, I try to come 122 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:45,600 up with where the name comes from and then how the symbol 123 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,200 developed the visual mark, And how they kind of interweave and 124 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,200 how that is related to the usage. 125 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:55,300 So we would the pound sign that comes from the word lever which 126 00:06:55,300 --> 00:07:00,500 in Latin was a scale. It was a the kind that like you 127 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:03,200 think of the scales of Justice or a scale at a fruit market in 128 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,100 Europe, where they wait, tomatoes and grapes. 129 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:09,100 It's basically a balance. So if you think of the zodiac 130 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:12,700 sign Libra, it's from the constellation that looks like a 131 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,000 scalar balance. And in fact in Italian Libra 132 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:18,900 zodiac signs call. Balam show called the balance 133 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:27,200 and attributes of Believers are quality balance equilibrium when 134 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,000 you hang something. It's the past participle pain 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,100 that I think of pendulum. Something that swings from a 136 00:07:32,108 --> 00:07:36,800 chain, or a rod. That's the past tense is on 137 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,100 though. So, Libra. 138 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:39,900 Pondo was the weight of something. 139 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,100 How did to be measured? So, that was equivalent to 140 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,200 Commerce. So, it was always a physical 141 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,500 weight was also Terry value. So the Libra, the L part was 142 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:55,400 abbreviated to just a land became the sign for the British 143 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,100 pound and starting to make sense. 144 00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:00,500 Right home? They'll be came round at the L, 145 00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:06,100 became the initial that became the little Mark and also it can 146 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:06,900 hold. Exactly. 147 00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:10,900 And then also the leader, which is no longer in use at the two 148 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:12,900 lines through it. Which by the way, was an old way 149 00:08:12,900 --> 00:08:15,100 of showing the abbreviation for a little horizontal line 150 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:20,600 through, which is called a Title, by the way, which is also 151 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,200 the name for the Little Dot above the eyes, and the Jays I 152 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,100 learned. So the L became the Lira 153 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,400 symbols. Well solely propone do was the 154 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:37,900 start of the pound sign Calera, sign the constellation, and our 155 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:40,700 pound system, basically in English, and that's why the 156 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:44,900 British pound is abbreviated l. So, we then abbreviate lb. 157 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:47,300 So if anybody wanted, why they go to the grocery store and they 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,200 The elbe period, like that's not a py where they'll be 159 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,300 compensable. That's what comes from from some 160 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:58,600 from Libra. So in, let's fast forward from 161 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,600 the ancient Roman times to Medieval describes would be 162 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,300 doing everything by ink providers. 163 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:11,100 Yeah, laughter I'm sorry. The parchment and, you know, 164 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:13,200 after reputation you can start to take shortcuts. 165 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,200 So they be with your grill pans and the vertical Strokes of the 166 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:20,600 I'd be would become two vertical strokes and then the bottom 167 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,300 stroke of the bowl of the be was a horizontal and they loop 168 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:28,300 around with their pain and finish it off with a upper 169 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,300 vertical stroke. And that eventually simplified 170 00:09:31,300 --> 00:09:34,000 into what we now know. As the hashtag sign the pound 171 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,300 sign on the telephone, which is still called the downside, but 172 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:39,600 it looks nothing like it. I'll be to the untrained eye but 173 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,100 now that you know, the story, it does then in the 60s Bell, 174 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:45,700 Telephone was came up with a touch-tone phone so that the 175 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:49,300 rotary dial and they had I've had 12 square grid and they had 176 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:54,000 no the 10 numbers, 0 through 9, and then they have to use 177 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,200 leftover, they use, the asterisk for one for the Starkey, and 178 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,700 they need a symbol for the other one. 179 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,400 And the supposedly, The Story Goes that the designer engineer 180 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,300 was a fan of Dora the athlete. And so he called the symbol they 181 00:10:07,300 --> 00:10:10,000 act of thought, and decided to use it with the kind of brought 182 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,600 it out of hibernation, putting on the kinda, on the telephone 183 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,100 became the pound key. Well then, 2007, when Twitter, 184 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,200 Was coming to life. The pound sign took on hashtag 185 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,100 meaning, they kind of designate channels of information and so 186 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:29,500 it's had a long history and I will head saddle on names but 187 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:31,600 all comes from labor, labor Bomba. 188 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,500 Long story. It's longest ones up. 189 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,900 I just picked up one out of the hat. 190 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:42,400 But yeah, I feel like there's something to like these things 191 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,500 that we think about as like really modern and contemporary, 192 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:49,900 like the hashtag red, which is so prevalent in social media, 193 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,900 but it has this literally ancient history to Roman times. 194 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:56,100 And, and before we were also talking about this, in our 195 00:10:56,100 --> 00:11:01,600 pre-interview chat about almost like a return to like pictograms 196 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,100 or Your grams whatever the term is, right? 197 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:07,800 Like almost like hieroglyphics, back of our age with Emojis, 198 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,400 which folks who watch the little promo video I did for this 199 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,300 interview saw you know use the monkey emoji and the mouse 200 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,200 Emoji. Talk to us a little bit about 201 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,200 that like this return to pictograms in a way or this kind 202 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,000 of Full Circle. Well, yeah, so I like when I 203 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,100 study Japanese, I learned that there's three. 204 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:28,600 When the reasons I study was to learn their, their character 205 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,900 system, just from a typographic standpoint and I was fascinated. 206 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,800 Learn. They have the use the Chinese 207 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,700 pictographs, which they called kanji. 208 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,200 Literally Chinese characters Chinese letters and then they 209 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,100 have to phonetic alphabets. And that's, that's very 210 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:43,600 interesting. And actually their history is 211 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,300 not very different from our own history. 212 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,300 It's basically pictographs become phonetic letters, but 213 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:51,700 then sometimes they return to being pictographs. 214 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,000 So it's funny how like, like a tech stock people will write 215 00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:00,200 before and they'll write the letter b and I'll write the 216 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:03,600 number four. Not the word itself, but 217 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,800 phonetically, you get it. You understand what's happening 218 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,600 with Percy you with the letters c or C you to with it to number. 219 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,100 Yeah, emoticons there was an ad for the Ellen Degeneres Show few 220 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:19,700 years ago on the. So, with on the bus stops and it 221 00:12:19,708 --> 00:12:22,300 basically was a Rebus, basically, it was a word and 222 00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:26,000 then I had a little picture RAM and a word and it was a whole 223 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,500 thing. You can read, but it's basically 224 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:30,900 happened just emojis. Like, that's really interesting. 225 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:34,900 We really are Really do seem to be going back to like a visual 226 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,200 culture of pictures. And I think that because of the 227 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,500 internet, the internet and video on Instagram, social media, and 228 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,100 experiencing that, all that a picture can a picture's, worth a 229 00:12:46,108 --> 00:12:50,900 thousand words, right Soldier. And then because of that people 230 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:53,000 are loosening up on their grammar and punctuation. 231 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:58,000 And punctuation doesn't take this as important, a role as it 232 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,200 didn't in my generation. So that's what's Curious. 233 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,400 I had to leave. To end of the book for that it's 234 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,900 like, where is punctuation headed? 235 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:07,600 How we kind of rivet howling which I do product? 236 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,400 Because it does Surfer, he's more focused, and it's 237 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,700 beautiful, and it's interesting and it's, it's it clarifies 238 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:16,100 information. So as a designer that's 239 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,900 basically why I'm really interesting, filtration is how 240 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:22,900 it how it could be used to help clarify the message. 241 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:26,000 Right. I think that's another thing 242 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,700 where we've seen like, either a full circle or a pendulum swing. 243 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,700 I don't know what the best visual metaphor for that is, but 244 00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:35,000 that point about how we're losing punctuation and some 245 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,500 contacts right? Especially in texting and maybe 246 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,100 generationally are in different groups. 247 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:41,900 Like if you put a period at the end of something that you type 248 00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:44,700 in a text, it could appear like a little like passive-aggressive 249 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:48,300 or a little bit, just aggressive aggressive in that sense rather 250 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,000 than just a neutral. Like, okay, this is the end of a 251 00:13:51,008 --> 00:13:55,900 sentence kind of way, but then we also Do some of the context 252 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:59,200 of the Nuance, right? Were you say a word out loud, 253 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,000 right? You can imbue it with emotion, 254 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,900 but if it's typed out, you don't really know from the context 255 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:08,100 unless, you know, the person and the situation and all of these 256 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:10,300 other, right? And I think the most curious one 257 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:15,600 on that is exclamation point. So one of my pet peeves is over 258 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,700 using exclamation points. I mean, I'm in a list as you 259 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,600 said in the beginning. So that applies to punctuation 260 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,600 as well, one exclamation point really is enough. 261 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:27,400 Take this sentence exclamatory. It's a superlative. 262 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,000 I mean you can't really get more than an exclamation point. 263 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,700 You've already maxed out your excitement or your loudness. 264 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,200 So who's to say what the right number is ever going to ask 265 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,800 start add in 2 3, 10 11. There are a lot of funny quotes 266 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,500 from old writers about from people saying you should only 267 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,300 use one punctuation in your whole lifetime, one like 268 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:48,600 summation point. You know like that one says you 269 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,200 should never use it, use it only if you're crazy. 270 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,200 But so attitudes have changed because Back in 1970, we used it 271 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,000 so rarely that it wasn't even didn't even a married. 272 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,800 Its own key on the typewriter, you had to type a query and then 273 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,700 you had to backspace and type the dumb quote, that straight 274 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:08,100 up, and down line, that also served as the past to be the 275 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:12,600 single quote and opening and closed. 276 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,400 And now we can't seem to get a great, a single correspondence, 277 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,300 even business correspondence with exclamation points and it's 278 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:23,700 exactly what you said, somehow, it comes across as cold. 279 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:26,000 Or unfriendly. Take the even done studies where 280 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,100 there seems to be a gender gap there to where women feel more 281 00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:31,800 compelled to use exclamation points. 282 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:36,600 So as not to appear to two to four more cold and I found that 283 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,100 really fascinating bad, but fascinating, I find myself using 284 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:42,600 it a lot too. I feel like I'm just like 285 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,300 naturally enthusiastic. I want to get that across and 286 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,700 right. Yeah, I'm not, I'm pretty 287 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,600 low-key. So I don't like loud noises. 288 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,700 I don't like a lot of visual clutter. 289 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,000 Sure. So that extends into my 290 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,000 punctuation and that's, that's another thing. 291 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,800 I'm sure a shit is absolutely expressive. 292 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400 You can, you can tell the style of a writer by the punctuation 293 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,600 of the use. I mean, so fun, graphic study 294 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,400 project that someone did and they took famous writers like 295 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:18,100 Mark Twain and Emily Dickinson, John Steinbeck, and they took 296 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:21,400 out all the words and just let the punctuation and see the 297 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,300 pattern how dense that that punctuation was How many 298 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:27,000 promising? Exclamation point Christmas 299 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,800 period. So let's go back like even 300 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,100 further back into like I guess prehistory ropey beginnings of 301 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:37,100 history when people started writing stuff down because just 302 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:40,000 to be clear, like, originally writing didn't have punctuation 303 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,100 right in a leather, right writing systems. 304 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:45,100 It was just letters or pictograms and things like that 305 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:48,900 and so punctuation emerged at a certain period of time in 306 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,500 different writing systems. Why do you think that is like 307 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,400 white? How did punctuation? 308 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,700 Um I guess at the time it was an innovation when it was first, 309 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,700 that's right developed over centuries. 310 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:03,000 So in the book, I started out with this bread which again if 311 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,000 you're watching the podcast you will be able to see it but it's 312 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,200 Greek boustrophedon. So boustrophedon me knocks means 313 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,300 Ox the Turning of the ax, the ax, plow pattern, so back, 2,000 314 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:18,800 years, 3,000 years, obviously people out with their accent 315 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:24,500 Farmers, most people found their own food and they Left to right. 316 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,099 Right to left all day long all day long back and forth every 317 00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,400 single day. So that was such an ingrained 318 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,200 Movement Like motor skill and their brains. 319 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,500 That's the way they wrote, they wrote left to right. 320 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,100 And then the next line they would write right to left 321 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:39,500 instead of having to go with your hand and go all the way 322 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:43,100 back. And not only that, but the 323 00:17:43,108 --> 00:17:47,100 letters were backwards. And when they went right to left 324 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,600 so it became very hard to read. Secondly, there were no spaces 325 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,600 between letters or words or paragraphs. 326 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,800 So it's more difficult to distinguish words, everything 327 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,900 was capital letter and there's no punctuation was just one 328 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:05,900 continuously. It's kind of like looking at 20, 329 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:07,900 we doing this on. 315 yesterday was Friday. 330 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,000 So if you look at a string of high numbers, where the numbers 331 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,400 just keep going on and on and on, and on no break after this 332 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:17,600 one doesn't. that's what reading boustrophedon was like just one 333 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,900 big long string of Interest members so reducing wasn't much 334 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:26,400 writing because, you know, Iris was probably the first, right? 335 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,100 And then Parchman the middle of the Middle Ages, and it wasn't 336 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:33,000 really available to the masses. So any writing was done in stone 337 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,600 chisels and Stones was honestly grandparent things inscriptions 338 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,900 on buildings and and laws and tablets and the common man, 339 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:44,600 probably did not a reader. So the original punctuation came 340 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:50,800 from Greek speechwriters when they were trying to tell that 341 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,100 order were to stop where to take a pause. 342 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,600 They would put little bat In in the, in the words are in the 343 00:18:58,608 --> 00:19:02,500 margins. Even and those are called basis 344 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:04,700 or in Latin sticks units, there are three of them. 345 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:09,700 There's the comma the with a K Petty, all those like a period, 346 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,900 the boys and the colon with a K and they actually didn't refer 347 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:18,400 to the punctuation, I referred to the phrases themself, a short 348 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,500 phrase, like calm actually means believe it means to cut off like 349 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,300 a small small. Living in Greek and colon means 350 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,100 a limit something. If you think of your colon in 351 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:31,900 your, in your, in your body, that's sort of an extension or a 352 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,700 limb of your digestive system and the period means orbit of, 353 00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:39,400 you know, a circular motion. And it referred to the actual 354 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:43,100 amount of text. It was basically a phrase, a 355 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:47,000 sentence, or paragraph or a complete thought. 356 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:52,100 And so, those marks referred to that and in turn how long, a 357 00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:56,700 pause, the order should leave this a I'm The mid sentence but 358 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,700 I'm changing my thought I've ended a sentence or even a 359 00:19:59,708 --> 00:20:01,400 longer pause attended a paragraph. 360 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,800 And so those names we still use today, it's comical and in 361 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,800 Period and that's where they can come back and take your page 362 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,800 with this. Then they went through Evolution 363 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,400 throughout basically Medieval Times is when things really 364 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,700 started to amp up with punctuation, when the monks 365 00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:21,000 started to describe if you're easily and then Gutenberg came 366 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,600 along and the printing press and then it just all took off and 367 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:26,900 There was a need for conservation as more and more 368 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:31,000 people who were reading, that is a fascinating story that I guess 369 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,100 that makes sense. Because you think about a period 370 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,200 like being a dot in punctuation, but like a period of time, for 371 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,500 example, right? It's more about the duration for 372 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:40,700 so that I guess that makes sense. 373 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:45,200 Now to me, like, why we go and punctuation itself, the word 374 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,000 comes from Putin, which means giving a puncture like a 375 00:20:48,008 --> 00:20:51,800 puncture wound. It means adopt a little all, and 376 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,100 that sort of all comes in the little like, Like when I design 377 00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:59,600 my men with Seoul station. So we start with a circle and 378 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,100 when Deimos think they throw the crippled kid so it's a formal go 379 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,000 from there. And that's where punctuation 380 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,900 started start with just about a q 3 dots, actually herb. 381 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:11,600 I feel like we can get so deep into this. 382 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,300 Like the book is actually really accessible and we've shown a few 383 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:18,700 spreads already, but I think it works well for both like 384 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,200 beginners. Like you could give this to like 385 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,800 a student or somebody who's like a long time designer and Really 386 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,100 into typography and all of this sort of stuff. 387 00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:31,300 Can you tell us a little bit about your process because 388 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:34,900 you're both writing and illustrating your own stuff. 389 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:38,300 So can you tell us how you think about this when you're 390 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,300 approaching sure? So it is called a visual guy 391 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,700 better a night. We went back and forth on how to 392 00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:48,500 subtitle it and I was pretty clear. 393 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,000 I wanted it to be called a visual guide because that's 394 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,900 really the inspiration behind it. 395 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:58,500 I wanted In that well we live in an information age right and 396 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,700 recently. So and I mean even Instagram is 397 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,900 no when we just still images it has to be video. 398 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,800 Now we want to be visually entertaining and I would argue 399 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,800 that the general public is more visually stabbing than it was 20 400 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,800 years ago as a result. So I wanted something to appeal 401 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,900 to the younger generation. Most of all because of the ones 402 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:22,900 who are out of issuing punctuation, almost militant 403 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:24,100 about it. No, we're not going to put 404 00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:25,700 period. Here know, I understand. 405 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:26,700 You know what? Who cares? 406 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,800 If it's you are why are you are, or why are you possibly Ari? 407 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,600 Gold doesn't matter? Yeah. 408 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:35,600 So I thought if I made something visual cuz I'm a visual learner 409 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,600 and readers myself, I don't like a lot of times I like to look 410 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,300 at. I learn visually and I'm 411 00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:44,700 attractive visual thing. So I said, if you can make 412 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:47,600 something that's visual that it did, they make punctuation sexy 413 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:54,200 even old Dynamic simple accessible and that the visuals 414 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,200 tell us Worried. So every page is basically more 415 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,700 like an infographic, you know? And there's very little text, I 416 00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:06,800 wanted all my son heads to just be one line, a lot of the all 417 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,700 the paragraphs are copied to fit within a circle and possible or 418 00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:15,300 one little paragraph and all playing on that Circle, classic 419 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:19,300 black, and red, and white and you can go anywhere in the book. 420 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,000 You don't have to it works chronologically, but you can 421 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,400 open to any spread read that spread. 422 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,100 Pause it and have your lesson for the day or your enjoyment 423 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,300 for the day. You get a complete story with 424 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:32,700 every spread, it's almost like a little infographic poster. 425 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,900 That was the impetus behind the design. 426 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,000 So when I design design, it visually first with no words. 427 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,100 I just designed like any night. I would what's the message? 428 00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:43,600 And how can I best communicate that. 429 00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:48,000 And the fewest means possible. So I would lay out the page. 430 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,400 Keeping in mind what spread might go before it or after it 431 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,900 for sequence and Rhythm. And then I would add The way, an 432 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,900 ad person who works, this is more copyright in than than 433 00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:03,200 written written. So I would add the copy just to 434 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,300 help explain the visuals and Morris captions rather than the 435 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,100 actual text that could be read like a novel. 436 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:12,800 And so that did frustrate my editor a little bit. 437 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,900 I think because most are, is want to receive a manuscript 438 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:23,200 right in Microsoft Word and handed it will check and and see 439 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,800 the whole story at a glance. Well, I didn't have the words 440 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,500 until I have the visuals and I basically like presented book. 441 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:34,300 I like to design it pretty much fun, the back cover even down to 442 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,300 the copyright page. So now I know everything is 443 00:24:37,308 --> 00:24:39,600 going to work, everything's going to fit, everything is 444 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,600 cohesive and included everything, and there's no 445 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,600 surprises and also because it is so visual, I won't know the 446 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,700 words until I've actually designed every page. 447 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,900 So that was my process and I think it shows in the finished 448 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:56,600 book when she think it ends up being a very visual book, it 449 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,700 does. It almost feels like like an 450 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,200 expanded version of those informational slide shows on 451 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,600 Instagram, but look form. Like a little bit more like 452 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,000 information dense because it's like, it's a bigger Square 453 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,500 obviously, than a phone. But it does feel like that where 454 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:16,200 I could like, you can enjoy it from beginning to end, or you 455 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,500 could just kind of pop in. And there's a story or As I 456 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,500 spread about a specific thing. So it works as like both the 457 00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:24,200 reference and something you could read cover to cover and 458 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,400 it's like very bite-sized in terms of like if you want to 459 00:25:28,408 --> 00:25:33,600 graze or if you want to really like binge, eat on typography 460 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,700 and rightly. So and I am before, I did the 461 00:25:36,708 --> 00:25:41,100 podcast, I reread the book cover to cover, just to refresh my 462 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:43,900 memory. It's exactly quickly as well, 463 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,900 like you can probably read the whole thing in 20 minutes, half 464 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:49,400 an hour. Any, but it's good to go. 465 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,200 Also go back the thing I like about it is like you said, it's 466 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,700 simple for beginners for the novice, he even an English as a 467 00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:58,000 second language. People would say, oh how do I 468 00:25:58,008 --> 00:26:00,800 use a not yet familiar with quotation marks? 469 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,600 Delete because we used EMA's are we don't vote material that way. 470 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,400 They can find something in it or people really don't know how to 471 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,200 use a comma or a screen like how to put it in a possessive which 472 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,400 is confusing sometimes. But then my editor said, you 473 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,100 know what? There's at least a dozen people. 474 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,400 Take off the top of my head. I'm going to give this to allow 475 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,900 them to editors, and writers, and colleague. 476 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,900 So it's got that level of information resource, so you 477 00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:30,900 really Bridges. Those two worlds of like the 478 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:33,700 visual designers and the writers and editors kind of coming 479 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:37,500 together around these what seemed to be my new show but you 480 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,100 really give us this real historical context. 481 00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:41,700 Oh yeah. Yeah, that was that was the 482 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:43,400 goal. So I hope I achieved it. 483 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,200 It's kind of my philosophy in general about design. 484 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,700 I like things to be Italy, attractive and engaging. 485 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,700 You know, thinking assign a highway or poster that has to 486 00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:57,400 grab your attention and half a second. 487 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:01,100 It's got to be visually arresting, but then, as you read 488 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,200 it, there's got to be information that keeps you 489 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,600 reading it. It makes you want to read it but 490 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,600 then also, will you pick it up a year from now, or 10 years from 491 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,700 now and discover something new. I love that I feel that time 492 00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,200 release design. And I think it's like The Wizard 493 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800 of Oz. I've seen that People most 494 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,500 Americans bring up a pizza with pepperoni like this movie. 495 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:26,700 Can you can remember it's not every year every time I see it I 496 00:27:26,708 --> 00:27:28,900 know some other level of depth to it. 497 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,500 Some other kind of interesting meeting or concept of moving in 498 00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:35,300 and that's what I hope to do in my design. 499 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:37,600 It's I call it deceptively simple. 500 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:40,200 There's a lot of things that's like oh it's just this and then 501 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,400 they're like oh I didn't look at the how about that? 502 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,900 Is that and that so I'm hoping that I'm further reads people 503 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:48,800 say. Oh okay then See that the first 504 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,500 time, I love that time reliefs design. 505 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,800 That's, I think that's a great principle for us to Think 506 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,300 Through when we're writing something or, or designing 507 00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:59,500 something ourselves. So, as a final question, do you 508 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,400 have any parting words or messages that you want to give 509 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,400 to our audience today about punctuation about the Pac-12? 510 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:11,300 It comes out next week, Tuesday, you can group your now, the fact 511 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:14,300 that that's, that's my, that's my Shameless pitch for that. 512 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,900 I love punctuation. I think it's beautiful. 513 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:23,100 Approach on this was like an Alice in Wonderland, you know 514 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,600 down the rabbit hole where you kind of like start exploring and 515 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,800 get deeper and deeper into like really, I think interesting 516 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,400 trivia and unknown facts In terms and also what I did was I 517 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,200 took the words, I like small type. 518 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,900 I'm glad I don't always get to do that with my clients. 519 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,000 So the type is fairly small still very legible but compared 520 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,800 to the punctuation. So I want to reverse that 521 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,000 proportion, that leadership kind of like handsome window. 522 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,300 Land for all son, she was Tiny and nothing else was large. 523 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,500 So you have these huge exclamation points. 524 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,800 Really are awesome to be holder. You have these like older size 525 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,200 periods are like meter-sized, pessimists, and I think that 526 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,500 makes it exciting and it makes people say, you know what, I 527 00:29:05,508 --> 00:29:07,700 never realized. That's what these shapes up to 528 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:11,800 look like, for example, like, in the beginning, there's a page 529 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,400 just on periods and people just has no, no sooner. 530 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,300 Did I establish it? Comes from the word for orbit 531 00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:24,600 and circle, then I kind of mix it up and I showed them actually 532 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,400 a period and a, on the face can be a square to be an oval can be 533 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,100 rectangle, can be a diamond, it can be organic shaped. 534 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,600 And most people won't ever notice that if they're not a bad 535 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,100 mood, I know that they had never blow up type that large. 536 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:41,300 I just wanted to people to get interested in this kind of 537 00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:43,900 hidden world that everybody uses everybody. 538 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:48,600 See we all have since we could read but most people don't 539 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,700 really think about well thank you for reminding us to pay 540 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,900 attention to these literally small details and blowing in a 541 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,300 bump into large proportions. So we notice them. 542 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:01,900 We are curious about them dig deeper into the history. 543 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,000 I've been live with Michael aren't here, author of snails 544 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,900 and monkeytales. A visual guide to punctuation 545 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:10,800 and symbols can get it wherever you, get your books on March 546 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,800 22nd, as a check out the book and Michael, thank you for 547 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,400 joining us. Thank you, everybody for tuning 548 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,000 in today as well, or for hosting tomorrow morning. 549 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:20,000 To Care by everyone.