It might sound as a curse but I would say the start seeing data
everywhere. So the started counting and
observing and collecting and still pretty much adopting the
data mentality and observing things everything like from your
life, the experiences that you go through with the date of
mindset. And then I mean, anything and
everything is a potential source for collecting data.
You're listening to design future.
Now, I'm Li Shan Wang. This episode is adapted from a
webinar. A conversation that I had with
Georgia. Loopy Georgia is an information
designer advocate for data humanism and a partner at
pentagram prior to joining pentagram.
She was a co-founder of accurate.
A data-driven design firm with offices in Milan and New York.
She's been named one of fast company's 100, most creative
people in business and she recently joined the MIT.
Media lab as a director's fellow she has spoken at places like
Ted and adobe's 99 you and is exhibited her work at places
including the Museum of Modern Art in New York and the
cooper-hewitt Smithsonian design Museum.
You can watch a video of the full webinar with Georgia loopy
which includes an introduction by Georgia to our work with
visuals, on AIG a.org will post the direct link in the show
notes. Georgia, thank you so much for
that presentation and for sharing a little bit about your
work and your process with us. So, to kick off the Q&A, I would
like to start with this idea of data humanism, which you've been
advocating. Yeah, I'd love to learn more
about this idea of data humanism to kick us out.
It's a gram is a different approach that are world that
besides focusing on how numbers then get represented.
It also focuses for me on the premises and the approach, the
data all kind of That is primarily human-made to because,
as I always say, even if it does come from a sensor, well, a
human being designed, the sensor and decided what to collect, and
what to leave out. And we're kind of like seeing it
really every day right now in our new consuming data, we spent
them it. But it's really a premise that
as obvious as it sounds, ultimately says that data
doesn't exist because data is an instrument that again, we human
being created to record reality and it is one of the tools that
We have to represent reality but it's not really the true
reality. But, you know, again, as obvious
as it sounds, sometimes this can get lost.
And if we then do a pre about this, you know, primaries, well,
then design can really illuminate the storytelling
aspect of data. And, you know, we can even start
to embed these aspects that make us, you want, you know, that our
imperfect and messy and uncertain lives into how we
collect and represent numbers. Because ultimately, what we want
to do, Really try to be as faithful as we can, to our
lives. Into our society, which again,
is inserted, not not old recordable and sometimes really
than imperfect to how we do, how we actually represent, they do
great. Yeah, I'd love to dig deeper
into this idea. This assertion you make about
data, not really existing or being more of a proxy for
reality. But since you also mention our
current pandemic situation, I guess I'd love to ask how you
and your team had pain A gram or coping.
We also have an audience question.
If you have any thoughts about how to visualize or make sense
of this data coming out about the virus on the pandemic and
this health data and how we can make it more meaningful and
human sure. Well there's so much that can be
said and also also because our inner also focus on design here.
I think there's something that we can also touch upon about how
designers can really learn and observe friend is like massive
change will like, it's a three-part question.
So how we're dealing in pain? Certain will pentagram.
Is that? Is it kind of like a solid and
knocks Tony when young company and my partner is have seen and
experienced four sessions before.
So you know we all Grizzly talk a lot about it and talk about
also about these is really unprecedented but we are all
trying and personally I'm all well.
Personally my practice have entered.
I'm just kind of knew because I joined only one year ago, not
even one year ago and what I'm what I am personally trying to
do is try to keep being positive and motivated myself to them, be
able to motivate my team which is also pretty any other Started
working with me recently and creating opportunity for my team
for myself to work on hopefully useful and needed projects.
I mean this moment in time but also keeping our minds open to
what is supposed covid reality still reflecting on how to
design practices might change or on how ways that we will need to
design my take into consideration different aspects
and in them to get into the actual idea of I ended well then
how visualizing data it's different.
I think it's a different conversation, but I think at
this point, it's early to talk about how things will change.
But I think as designers really keeping a night out in
observing, what's happening as the best that we can do?
Because in as in all of the moments of Crisis, it's an
opportunity to especially now to explore different ways that we
can leave. The four ways that we can be at
home or coexist. In the planet, it's an
opportunity to explore how We are dealing with such a deep
kind of like a people in our and have their lives and habits.
How we are? We coping, you know, these are
questions that if we start observing and like, you know
paying noticed, will be helpful for, you know, the post that
they intense covid situation, we will all know that we all know
that you will not get back to normal in a, in a second, so
that we a transition, but also how our cities are coping out
our societies coping. I think it can be seen as a, if
we want to see. A positive way.
It Collective experiment with so much to learn from and and yeah
also if we think about design in general design is always one of
the things that design and also arts does is imagining what
doesn't exist yet. And so I think there's a lot of
potential for re-imagination and then I mean we can talk about
data visualization, more in depth but I've been talking a
lot these questions. No, I'm there's so many threads
there and I could talk all day and I appreciate all of these
audience questions that are coming in.
In from all over the world across the u.s. we have Italy
Catalunya Mexico. I can't even save them all or
I'll get in trouble for leaving. Somebody help and we see you and
thank you for joining in. I guess one thread I would like
to dig deeper into is this idea of identity, right?
That this covid situation is shaking out of our Collective
identities, but even before that situation, you identify as an
information designer but you have a focus on data.
So I'd love to understand more of that choice.
Is and maybe also, if you could weave in, maybe your
architecture background as well because that's another identity
that you have or well. I mean, I think it's a me
information design. Is it will say data and data
visualization is a subset of information design.
So, this is why I defined myself moreover of an information
designer, rather than the day the results section designer.
And information design means really shaping.
The ways that we design experiences around information.
I think the then data visualization is a part of it,
but designing experiences. This means too much more.
It means sometimes also designing how the data are
collected. As I mentioned, most of the
times in my work, I also designed the data set, you could
make sense because again most of the time just were like a
journalistic an authorial work but also designing an experience
can really designing a mobile app designing and environmental
experience in a museum and it means designing a book.
And so this is why I think to me than did.
It was all this time is only the fine.
Well, not the final but it is a subset of All the information
design and I do really, I do really think that I am a
designer much more than in artist or any other like
identities, like professional identity.
One can see me through because I think I thrive with constraints
that and rules and problems to solve rather than just open
ideas and well like macaroni art detector.
I can see it now, but I don't know how much it is in hindsight
and in retrospect. But to me again, architect or
was it was my way. Way to merge my need for rules
and numbers and organization with.
Also the way to, you know, they need to express myself usually
and creatively. So, not knowing when I needed
this, I want to study for college or day.
There was competition is and not knowing that they did was will
say she was even a thing. That was my way to start merging
these two Souls that I think I have.
Yeah, that's so beautiful. This idea of merging Two Souls
that you have since you've shared a little bit about your
own Journey. I've seen as a pattern in these
questions coming in online. You're curious about any advice
that you might give to design students or designers who want
to transition into doing more work with data.
If you have any thoughts on what they could do, what they could
learn or books or any sort of struggle, starting points.
I mean there's so much out there, they're like books, there
are webinars and how their online courses, but I think
their tools are you can learn their tools that can help you
actually use data and visualize them even if you don't code.
But I think in general it might sound as Occurs, but I would say
to start seeing data everywhere. So to start counting and
observing and collecting and still pretty much adopting the
data mentality and observing things everything like from your
life, the experiences that you go through with a data mindset
and then I mean anything and everything is a potential source
for collecting data from your conversation with the things
that you observed, your relationship everything.
And then once you have that, I would say that source of
information. Destructor in the way of data,
like counting things and that details.
Well, that is a designer and think it's a better of adopting
gay, if then, that mentality because it's about creating
rules. Let's say if I counted as many
things, I will draw as many shapes and if that is, you know,
I don't know how our long that will be as long if that was a
planning in a long. You will be as long, you know,
it's really, it's really pretty much about that.
I would say that in to observe with The eyes of the data
collector and and then adopting it, if blank, then blank
mentality for using rules in your design.
But then really, really then they're like so many tools will
the Alberto Cairo spokes are I think kind of like a very
important work especially for data journalism but also I would
say you know, get visually inspired by things that that
recall you to a data visualization that you might
have experienced in prom. And I always say that they do.
Relation students and designers, do not necessarily get inspired
by already existent that there was allegations.
But rather, and we rather from things from the world art and
visual environment is that you are really attractive, do that
can really then help you get your own.
I wouldn't call it style because that's, that's kind of
controversial, but you are unique way of translating
numbers into images. That's great.
This idea of the data mindset, I think that's the first time I've
heard that term and also get it out.
Oh, that's that's great. And also this idea of if then
that right, that also reminds me of computational thinking
whether or not you have a computer science background or
coding background, you can still think about these kind of
conditional logic, sand ways of creating things with rules.
As you mentioned, another question that I had, but also a
common question, that's coming up in our over 100 comments
coming in online now and is about inspiration which you've
already mentioned. But what do you look for for
inspiration or what? You look at for inspiration and
what Giving you hope right now. Okay, well for visual
inspiration. I now at this point, I know that
there are some would say, areas visual area that I really that
are really long looking at well abstract art, it's a constant
infinite source of information. For me is duration for me
because if you think about it it's already kind of like, in
information design language where they're abstract shapes
and symbols that actually represent a reality.
They know visually in general, abstract art is really inspiring
for Or me, then I have a visual attractiveness, right?
And we would usually attracted by a musical notation system.
So there's so much also in contemporary music notation that
goes beyond the usual score and have that can really serve as a
source of inspiration for me and again, why?
Because it's you're ready and information design system.
So translating something that you can play in real life where
you can hear into a notation system that people can read and
Playback. So I think there are rules Was
that somehow work already and then also, you know, if it's
like kind base. And so, there's already a
structure like that, I am always inspired also by by nature and
scientific drawings and astronomy, but I think that
every designer should find their own ways to see.
So, really learning how to see and learning how to set the
qualities of the think that you were attracted to into how then
you work. Design-wise with data is super
important because otherwise, everybody will be inspired by
this. Same thing.
So this is this is for me but also but also really, I mean, I
would say learning how to see and how to understand what you
like, what you like. If you like an image, like a
painting, you like, you know, something that you see, what is
that you like? Is it the composition of these
shapes? Is it like a balance of
priorities is in colors, is it? So you know learning to do that.
I think is the first step and what inspires me right now and
gives me hope right now. Well I think, you know, all of
the Dynamics and practice Are coming out to like, you know,
people are way more connected kindness of people that are
helping each other. Again, these bottom at
practices. But also, as we can see, I mean
at a global level, all the world coming together to really to
really focus on this, very problem that we have and I don't
know, I think, in general, in a moment of Crisis, you're always
opportunity for personal and societal growth and even if
somehow, and it's really hard for me, not only for, you know,
personally like to see you since Sometimes it's hard to see when
you're immersed in business certainty.
I think that I'm hopeful for a stronger wiser and more
connected and tune the in ways of living that we might not be
able to explore after this. Yeah, hopefully.
So I agree with you that there is this kind of tension right
now between seeing the best and the worst of people and that
were in some ways more connected than ever because we have to be,
or we have to make the effort while we're still disconnected.
I wanted to connect You just said, with something you said,
previously, actually in your Ted Talk where you share it, an
anecdote about growing up in Italy during the rise of
Berlusconi and how you see some parallels with this experience
that we're living with Trump, but the filter bubbles that were
living in, or based on our social networks of the content
that we see. And do you have any thoughts on
this idea of these filter bubbles or kind of the sameness
of what we're seeing and experiencing is, we're living in
this time of social distancing. That's, that's an interesting
question. I don't know if I thought enough
about it. I think there's definitely a
parallel to what I was describing, but now we are way
more. I think connected and opened to
recognizing, and to looking for sources that we were before, but
also it's pretty interesting moment in time because everyone
is looking for data and constantly checking data.
We were coming from a place where there were only a few of
us that cared as much about data.
As we I think like, All are, we want sources if we can trust
sometimes. I mean, to be honest, we also
want to believe the data that might confirm the most positive
Trends and outcomes. And we are going for, we're
looking for data to feel that. There's something we can
control, and I don't know if it's a moment of do we trust
data or do we not trust it? I think, you know, in general
it's a moment for it comes out to a problem with data literacy.
And I think We're ready to deal with it.
So I mean another from answering your question but I think the
point here for us all and for like journalists and people who
put data out there is making sure that people understand how
data are collected. The missing data point there are
uncollected that are as important as the data that we
see. Also, you know, this big red
dots that we see them in here, times Maps, like, how hard it
generated? What is, what is really the
process for that and and also how to relate to the more
person, an individual story? We read in promotional articles
into Howell than the data that we see are aggregated.
So I think I think it's truly right now, a matter of that
electricity and we were in a really good moment, in time to
start showing people, how things are collected are things are
aggregated, all things are made and the you want aspect of it.
I don't know if we're living in bubbles, we're leaving in.
They do bubbles because we want to rely on data or how we
interpret the uncertainty and I mean, definitely having data.
It's much better than not having data.
This is the whole General point of might work but we need to be
mindful on how we present them and on how much we include about
the data collection process, right?
Well thank you. I'm also seeing this pattern in
the questions coming through about how do you balance these
different trade-offs between so you Simplicity and legibility
Beauty but also communicating the real complexity Behind These
datasets and these human stories.
I know it's like Case-by-case basis on how you deal with that.
But do you have any thoughts on how to deal with these
trade-offs or how to start developing that mindset?
Sure. I mean I think in general,
another premise that I want to make is that to me data, while
data visualization is not about simplifying the world because
our reality is complexes, which is dense is contextual.
It's about giving access to that complexity.
And so depending on how much you want readers, where users are
visitors, To engage meaning like is it a 30-second moment or even
like 10 second moment, when your audience whatever it is needs to
engage or can they spend more time?
Will that is the spectrum that can help you understand?
You know, do I do? I do a very rich and dense thing
with a very thorough legend or do I use somehow conventional
ways to represent data such as no red for danger and green for
it's all okay, because I need somebody to Really interpret it
really, really quickly. I always say that like my work
with data is mostly for, I mean, it would say entertainment or
new knowledge making rather their immediate decision making
processes. And again, there's really your
said it right there. So there's this Factor when
there's a balance, but if I need to design a dashboard for a
pilot to land a plane, I probably wouldn't require him to
be the legend. But if I'm talking about
accomplish reality, in an exhibition, People can take
their time. I think there's a value in
trying to make their experience with the content through design
as rich as possible. It's a spectrum.
It's a spectrum that case, by case you need to design, you
need to decide where your stand. But I think again in situations
where you can have readers attention, there's a value in
showing somehow. I wouldn't necessarily say the
complexity of the context and the richness of the information
that you work with. Yeah, I think context is really
important and I feel like I see this connection between your
response about contacts with your previous point about data,
being a placeholder for the real thing, right?
And that it's a placeholder. But even when it is a
placeholder that meeting, or that usefulness also changes to
based on the context. So there's also because this is
a design audience, there's all sorts of questions about some of
your preferred tools, whether you code with our or python or
what your favorite iPad drawing tool.
Is do you have any sort of tools and things like that you want to
share you do, by the way? I'm just seeing.
Now that are 132 questions. Yeah.
There's so many and so sorry we can't get to all of them
everyone but it's great to see people from all over the world.
Yeah. Well and thank you for the
questions that everybody so I personally don't code.
I am. And I come I don't come from a
computer scientist background. So I my favorite tools for
making sense of data are always like a pencil and like pencils
and pens and paper because I always like to think about the
structure of the data set. First, meaning like, you know,
understanding do I have five thousand data points or 50 data
points? What are the categories in the
actual was that I have? And to me, that is a thing that
I Do by hand primarily. Then I do work with developers
all the time and really lucky that in my team's, it accurate,
it has 2 G, I have amazing software developers to help me
like prototype, but also been tell me and you know, developed,
they actually sold stations. I have started to work within
with iPads with my iPhone very Very, very open.
I really love drawing data on my iPad and I just used procreate,
which is an app that is, it's enough for drawing.
So there's nothing that can get automated data wise in the app,
but I think it's just the app that I really like, I
collaborate with my team in my designers, and so they have, and
we have whole sort of skills from working from scratch to to
Adobe Illustrator, to actually, prototyping and coding.
So yeah, but if it, again, I make sense of data with pencils
and paper, One of the audience members just said, oh man, did
he just make my soul jump for joy pencil and paper.
So I think it's resonating with a lot of folks wherever they are
on that spectrum between coding and hand drawing things.
So we only have a very few questions left and I know over
100 open question. So I guess I'll just leave
something. Open-ended for Georgia.
Any final thoughts that you want to share with people, anything
you want to share besides staying safe and healthy.
What are what's next for you? What's next for me?
Well, but what's next? For me, and me that I
anticipated before I am trying to.
And again, it was early and the past weeks to really start work
on the project. It was about the pandemic.
I didn't want to do it. I think it was kind of like an
observing mode but now with my team we're pitching and trying
to find ways to work on meaningful projects that can
document part of what's going on but also maybe Envision and
anticipate. What I what will be I think
again what I can say If the designers and again, I'm just
not one way to do it. There's not one way to design
for the design for the coast, but I can really keep your eyes
open. Observe observe what's different
than before? Observe, what are the tools that
I before? We're used for a certain things
that now get translated into a different, you know, social and
interactive tool or anything like that on the cool side, but
also really did dynamics that are changing.
How are we leaving differently? What are the things do?
We can learn for how our interactions with physical
spaces. And actually, withdraw, Rather
than with people is changing now that can the fact a transition
phase after that. And I mean, it's my case.
We can just really try and stay positive because as much as it's
hard to sleep now is just a moment for growth and for
interconnection. Well thank you for taking some
time out of your busy schedule. I'm sure to share your thoughts
with us to share your work with us.
Thank you. Everyone from all over the world
who have joined in and asked her questions.
So sorry if we couldn't get to you.
But hopefully, we can continue continue this conversation on
Twitter, you can look for Georgia, pentagram on Twitter,
you can find me at least Shawn or aiga design and we can
continue there and continue these conversations and hope you
all stay healthy and safe and keep on making work.
That's human and works with data.
Thank you. It was really a pleasure I wish
I could see you all everybody. Thanks for joining.
And thanks again for listening to design future.
Now, a production of aiga the professional association for
design. I'm Li Shan Wang find us and hit
us up on social media at designed future.
Now, we would love to hear from you.
I hope you're staying safe and healthy until next time.