1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,800 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,160 Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang, Co 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,040 Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:13,080 professional association for design. 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,600 This season on the show we are exploring the theme of design 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,240 and performance and with me my Co host. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,040 Hi everyone, I'm Julia Brontello, Design Competitions 8 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:29,120 and event Manager at AIGA. Our guest this episode is 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,920 Richard Moross. He is the founder and CEO of 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,160 MOO, which started as a business card printing company back in 11 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,920 2006. And now MOO designs and sells a 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,480 whole range of useful branded things from notebooks to water 13 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:44,280 bottles, and they sell to customers all around the world. 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,360 MOO is currently one of the fastest growing print companies 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,880 in the world. It's grown from 35 employees in 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,280 2008 to over 450 employees today. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,920 In our conversation with Richard, we're going to learn 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,800 more about his entrepreneurial journey and get his reflections 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,480 on the theme of this season's show design and performance. 20 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Welcome, Richard. Thank you. 21 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:07,560 Great to be here. Yeah. 22 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,640 Thanks for tuning in. We'd like to start our 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,640 conversation on the topic of entrepreneurship. 24 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,120 And from there, we'll get to know more about you and your 25 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,720 company, MU. But we did a little bit of 26 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,040 research. On your website. 27 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,640 You say that the very best part of being an entrepreneur is 28 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,880 working with your team of unconventional and brilliant 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,440 people who inspire you each and every day. 30 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,240 You also mentioned in a 2008 interview with The Economist 31 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,440 that before starting MU, you hadn't thought of yourself as an 32 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,680 entrepreneur. You told The Economist quote, I 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,480 was driven by the power of an idea. 34 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,920 As soon as I had fully thought through the idea, I was 35 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:45,600 compelled to set up the business. 36 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,640 I had no choice but to take my life in this direction. 37 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,480 It became an act of self fulfillment, UN quote. 38 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,160 So with that context, Zack, could you tell us a bit more 39 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,280 about the origin story of MU? How you came to identify as an 40 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,000 entrepreneur through that journey? 41 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Sure. It's the first time anyone has 42 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,240 fed a quote back to me in that way, so I have to have to, you 43 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,160 know, kind of think back to what state of mind I was in at the 44 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,280 time. But no, the story is true and 45 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,520 the, the, the sentiment still rings true today. 46 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,000 And I, I think, you know, when I started the business in its 47 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,560 first iteration, I was 25, I'd been working in a design 48 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,400 company. I'd done a bit of work in a tech 49 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,720 start up and it was all about the idea. 50 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,400 I mean, the I, I, you know, becoming an entrepreneur was the 51 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,960 method by which I would make the idea real. 52 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,840 So I was about a passion for creating and the methodology was 53 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,840 starting a business. The original idea was was very 54 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,680 different to what we do today. I guess every journey starts 55 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,640 with a single step and that was the single step. 56 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,840 And it was basically about how to create a market for business 57 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,600 cards for your social life. You know, there's a, you know, 58 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,560 500 year old industry of, of printing, a sort of 300 year old 59 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,360 industry of printing business cards. 60 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,320 And, you know, for the history of time that had been for 61 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,160 professionals to give their information to other 62 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,360 professionals. But almost all technology at 63 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,600 some point, you know, finds its way into the hands of consumers 64 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,600 and consumers repurpose that for their for their benefit. 65 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,600 It just struck me as very strange that there was this tool 66 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,440 had been around for a long time, super functional, you know, 67 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,840 doesn't require Wi-Fi or batteries, doesn't universally 68 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,560 understood how it works. Why would consumers not using 69 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,520 them? So that was the original the 70 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:32,920 original idea. The original idea of the 71 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:34,120 business was called pleasure cards. 72 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,200 We can get into that. Obviously a very strange 73 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,920 branding decision, but what I did to stand out and yeah, I 74 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,280 became sort of obsessed. You know, it was a a moment of 75 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,360 of passion for trying to make something happen and and became 76 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,960 an entrepreneur sort of as a result of that. 77 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,280 That's great. Yeah. 78 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,920 What curious about this pleasure card name and how you got to 79 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,120 move. Maybe I can wrap it into the 80 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,160 next question, which is like this pivot. 81 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,560 So you started from business card printing and now you do a 82 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,200 diverse range of branded merchandise from notebooks, 83 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:05,880 water bottles, all sorts of things. 84 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,040 So can you talk about the pivot from pleasure cards to to move, 85 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,800 but also like expanding for your your product line? 86 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,279 The pivots were very different and driven by different, 87 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,480 different things. But yeah, we can tackle them one 88 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,760 or the other. So the pleasure cards didn't 89 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,120 work, right. There was no demand for this 90 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,520 product. People hated the name. 91 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,840 It was it was doomed to failure. And however, there were little 92 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:33,960 things about the product. It was a print product that it 93 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,520 had some technologies that that we had invented and they seem 94 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,680 kind of cool. And this is 2004, 2005. 95 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:46,200 And at the same time as me totally failing to launch 96 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,800 pleasure cards, social networks were exploding, blogs were 97 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,360 exploding, Skype was coming onto the market. 98 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,600 People were playing with technology in in new ways, in 99 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,000 social ways. So there was this, the pivot was 100 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,800 let's find a way to try and get this social, you know, hardware 101 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,280 product to work with some of these social software products. 102 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:07,280 So the first pivot was into like, how can we find social 103 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:09,520 networks? How can we latch onto high 104 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,080 growth opportunities and kill pleasure cards dead? 105 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,080 But but kind of. Take some of. 106 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,800 The things that were really cool about it and and work with some 107 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,160 of these social networks to bring it to life in a different 108 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,360 way. So that's how MU was was 109 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,560 initially born. I think once we'd proven that 110 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,280 out, we did, we did so we can talk about partnerships, we did 111 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:28,120 in the, the ways in which we grew the business. 112 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,520 But you know, ultimately we, you know, we talked about our our 113 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,600 kind of mission today. It's about helping bring brands 114 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,960 to life, right? So we did that in a 28 by 70mm, 115 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,560 you know, rectangle in these little cards that we launched 116 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,080 with. You know, we did that very 117 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,320 successfully with business cards and other things. 118 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,600 As we moved and expanded into paper, we were like, oh, there 119 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,880 are other challenges that we're quite interested in to you know, 120 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,920 there's big markets in, in things like branded merchandise. 121 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,080 How would we do that differently? 122 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,520 What would we do to to disrupt and innovate in those spaces? 123 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,720 So I guess it's a natural expansion and a natural 124 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,960 curiosity that we as entrepreneurs sort of have to 125 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,040 try and do that. And a great way to grow and 126 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,480 expand a business obviously is you seek other categories out. 127 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,000 But yeah, so two different pivots. 128 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,560 One was based on survival. Yeah. 129 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,160 This is dying. We have to change it. 130 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,600 The other based on on opportunity and actually kind of 131 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,320 an enthusiasm for building and expanding and growing. 132 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,200 Right. So it sounds like you've like, 133 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,080 you know, we're learning from your potential customers 134 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,640 pivoting along the way, like as follow up. 135 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,880 I actually wanted to like rewind a little bit more. 136 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,600 So folks have been talking about print being dead for decades 137 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,600 now. It's mostly about like print 138 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,960 journalism and that's a whole different discussion. 139 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,360 But obviously there's still plenty of surfaces that we print 140 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,040 on, whether for branded merchandise or packaging, all 141 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,800 sorts of stuff. So print is still big in that 142 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,880 sense, but it's perhaps considered a legacy industry, 143 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,400 although you have innovative and MU in terms of your model. 144 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,840 But when you were starting up, how did you convince investors 145 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,120 to take a chance on a printing business? 146 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,400 So again, I think this is probably two other pivots to 147 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:06,480 talk about which are very interesting. 148 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,560 I think initially, you know, print has, as I said, since 149 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,360 Gutenberg had a business model, right? 150 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,960 You raw materials, you have machines and you're able to to 151 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,280 turn that into something super functional, super useful. 152 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,760 So when social networks were looking for a way to monetize 153 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,240 their business before the advertising models came along 154 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,040 and you know they kind of grew and grew from there, we were 155 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,920 talking to social networks and blogs and kind of these startup 156 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,000 businesses said we can help you sell this to your customers. 157 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,320 So you know some of the early ones we did a deal with Flickr 158 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,800 was our first deal. So it was, you know, 159 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,240 photographers who were using Flickr to share their photos 160 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,960 online, a lot of professional photographers. 161 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,240 So this was a way for Flickr to generate direct revenue and for 162 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,120 us to generate direct revenue from customers by putting their 163 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,960 photos on our on our products. We shared revenue with with 164 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,360 Flickr, with Yahoo who owned them at the time. 165 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,400 And then we just rolled that out to blogging platforms. 166 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,080 And, you know, we did a deal with Bebo, if you remember that. 167 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:03,440 Yeah. Yeah. 168 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,720 So young kids social Nets, a young person social Nets, we did 169 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,640 it with with six apart and some of the kind of early blogging 170 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000 software businesses. So you know, we tried in a lot 171 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,880 of different places. We did with Skype as well, you 172 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,600 know, kind of a way to share your Skype ID so that you could 173 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,440 easily communicate with people. So that that that was a very 174 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,400 easy sell to investors because we said we have a business model 175 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,160 and you have all these social networks over here. 176 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,720 If we can go and do deals with them, we can bring them money, 177 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,080 we can bring ourselves. We were part of an ecosystem of 178 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,159 growing and exciting businesses with all the potential. 179 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,919 So that was the kind of first, first compelling narrative that 180 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,159 became apparent. I think now it's almost the 181 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,120 opposite of that in a sort of interesting way. 182 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,560 The value paper and printed products, when done for the 183 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:50,840 lowest possible cost and expressed as an item of 184 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,040 practically 0 value, are obsolete. 185 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,240 When you can send an e-mail at a fraction of that cost and people 186 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,480 are going to ignore it anyway, why make something that's a 187 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,600 commodity that people aren't going to see? 188 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,000 It's like spam right? No one reads spam and I think 189 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,320 people don't read junk mail that gets put through your door at 190 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,760 the same time, because of all this spam, because of all this 191 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,120 digital, very low cost of digital communications, making 192 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,200 beautiful high quality physical things cuts through people 193 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,320 notice them. Oh, what's this nice card? 194 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,960 What's this nice gift that you bought me that you put kind of 195 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,480 the brand on? So I think in a world of a lot 196 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,960 of digital noise, analog is a is a really powerful signal that 197 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,240 people can latch onto and use. So we're lucky that we're in the 198 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,520 kind of high quality print, you know, the premium print end of 199 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,800 the spectrum. We care about those details and 200 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,200 we think we're quite good at, you know, discovering them and 201 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,400 innovating and making nice things. 202 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,760 That kind of stuff cuts through. So we think, we think it's a for 203 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,400 very different reasons. We're a highly sort of valuable 204 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,440 and investable Business Today because, you know, we make stuff 205 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,960 that you can't send in an e-mail, you can't send to 10,000 206 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,800 people with a touch of a button. It has to be special, it has to 207 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,040 be valuable, it has to cut through. 208 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,280 So yeah, a lot of difference between those two eras in 20 209 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:06,120 years of time. Right. 210 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,800 Yeah. Yeah, it's been an interesting 211 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,000 journey to to to get from there to here. 212 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,960 Yeah, I love it. I love to hear your journey and 213 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,600 also like how you started your concert and where you are now. 214 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:19,640 That's great. That's great. 215 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,360 So Richard, referring back to the code that Rishan mentioned 216 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,400 earlier about your team being unconventional and brilliant 217 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,480 people. I'm also interested to hear more 218 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,040 if you have any advice on how to build a team and how, how do 219 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,600 you, how are you able to see those brilliant and 220 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,680 unconventional people in the hiring process? 221 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,400 And also how are you able to maintain the the culture of the 222 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:54,000 company when you're scaling from 35 people to 450 plus, right? 223 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,760 So, yeah, I mean, a few questions in there and I, I, I 224 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,680 don't know whether I have the right answer to any of them, but 225 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,280 I can tell you my experience and what we did and what worked and 226 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,800 what didn't work. The culture is obviously 227 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,600 extremely important and values are extremely important and 228 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,520 they're going to drive, you know, performance ultimately. 229 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,720 So you have to care about those things. 230 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,480 You have to focus on them. There have to be consequences, 231 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,800 good and bad, for people living the culture or not living the 232 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,360 culture. And the more that those are 233 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,760 codified and part of daily life, you know, you'll see it 234 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,280 reflected in the performance of a business and in and you need 235 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,600 to see it in reflected in people who rise and fall within your 236 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,440 organization. I think that what that culture 237 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,960 is, what those values are and how that comes to life is very 238 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,360 different when you're a ten person company, then you're 100 239 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,280 person company or a 400 person company or 1000 or 10,000. 240 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,920 And I think that doing it for the first time, I was helped. 241 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,400 I mean, the, the honest answer to the question is I don't think 242 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,640 I'm greatly responsible for for the culture of the business Over 243 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,200 the years, I think I've been helped by having experienced in 244 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,720 senior people around me. I'm probably personally 245 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,360 responsible for the heart of the business, you know, like the 246 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,080 drum beat, but also like making sure we do things in the right 247 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,680 way, that things are aligned with my personal values. 248 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:13,400 You're as opposed to my professional values, you know, 249 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,320 like what I think things are, you know, morally, ethically 250 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,240 right to do or not. But I just had great people. 251 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,920 I was very we we had venture capital investors and still do. 252 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,920 They are extremely helpful at helping you attract talent, 253 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,720 helping you find them and convince them to come to the 254 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,800 business. Their endorsement helps you find 255 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,480 people that would otherwise never come to your tiny business 256 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,560 with no revenue. You know, I think it's a really 257 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,160 powerful and helpful things that was extremely helpful. 258 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,000 And then as we've grown, I think, you know, the, the, the 259 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,840 whatever the quote of brilliant weirdos or whatever it was that 260 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,120 I may have said before was actually something along the 261 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,080 lines of what I had heard when I worked for a design company 262 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,720 called Imagination here in London. 263 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,360 And I think in that they published a book many years ago 264 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040 and I think that they had called it brilliant weirdos or, you 265 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,800 know, kind of nerdy, something like that. 266 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,520 There was this nice combination of obviously talent, but, you 267 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,480 know, didn't fit into another into the box. 268 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,560 You know, that they weren't necessarily, you know, at 269 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,560 Harvard NBA, you know, that they more of a Street Fighter type of 270 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,920 mentality than a, you know, than a super professional. 271 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,320 And and with that might come all sorts of quirks and things, but 272 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,920 I think that those are characterful, you know, people 273 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,720 with, you know, diverse backgrounds. 274 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,960 You want people who have different experiences that they 275 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,720 can one joins the business, adds to the flavour and the the kind 276 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,440 of diversity and the the quality of the work. 277 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,400 So yeah, for the most part, it's people have helped me along the 278 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,760 way and been very, very lucky to have a strong team, you know, 279 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,760 throughout different team and doing different things, but but 280 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:46,440 always strong. Awesome. 281 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,560 Very cool. And Speaking of culture of the 282 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,400 company and so on, I was thinking like more on a personal 283 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,000 note, I've been working remotely pretty much fully remote for the 284 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,360 past five years and before that was fully in person. 285 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,280 And now I've seen many companies either going fully back to the 286 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,080 office or some still keeping the hybrid model. 287 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,520 I know you have reached the moment where you're in the 288 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,720 hybrid work model. I wanted to hear more from you. 289 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,160 How do you keep this culture, the team spirit and create 290 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840 making sure you create cohesion and that the communication is 291 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,600 smooth and still keeping and obtaining the the culture with 292 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,600 with such work model? It's very hard. 293 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,400 I think hybrid is the hardest. You know, you described it just 294 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,640 now. You know, it's very binary, 295 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,680 these worlds, either at home, you're at work. 296 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,600 To have a mix of those two things is hard because you need 297 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,000 to invest in both those things. You need to invest in the office 298 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,200 and you need to invest in the the remote tools and you need to 299 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,080 have some form of, you know, equitability across your teams 300 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,280 and your culture and your geographies and so on. 301 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,160 So I guess our final decision on hybrid stems from the fact that 302 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,320 we make products that are for people to hand out in person. 303 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,040 They're physical things, right? They exist in the physical 304 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,520 world. They're not a software only 305 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,200 business. We do software manufacturing, 306 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,520 design. We do all of these things in 307 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,640 house. So as we design things for 308 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,600 customers that are physical that are used to help customers to 309 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,920 network or to build their relationships in person. 310 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,640 I think it would be crazy for us to be a virtual business. 311 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,240 And if you add the fact that we have factories and we have, you 312 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,800 know, physical goods flying through our business, I think we 313 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,960 were always going to have an element of in person, what we 314 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,120 landed on was kind of 40% minimum. 315 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,640 So two days a week in the office and the rest people can work 316 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,160 from. That's dependent on the type of 317 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,160 role that people have, but that's I'd say the average 318 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,080 across people who are not doing a factory job. 319 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,320 So that stands for, you know, people who are working in the 320 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,160 service teams, people who are working in design, people 321 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,120 working in engineering. We have a, a pretty big remote 322 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,080 population as well. I think I'm going to guess about 323 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,520 80 or 100 people maybe are remote in the business. 324 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,200 So it's a, it's A and all of our manufacturing people are in five 325 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,040 days a week, you know, at least because they're, they have to 326 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,800 be. Can't run the machine from 327 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,440 remotely. So I think it's exactly, you 328 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,960 know, we'd have to buy everyone a new house to fill the machines 329 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,160 in them, which would be impractical. 330 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:23,480 So I think that like it's like I go to a gym sometimes I can work 331 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,640 out at home. It's helpful, I think to have a, 332 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,080 you know, if you use a trainer every once and often to help you 333 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,400 perfect your form, I think going to the office helps build that 334 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,640 in person. Mentoring and learning in person 335 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,280 I think can be much easier. So we've settled on our ratio 336 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,640 that works for us today. That may change in in the 337 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,280 future, but I think we're pretty happy with with where we are 338 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,440 with it. Great. 339 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,840 Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I wanted to take this 340 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,280 culture conversation in another direction as it relates back to 341 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,520 the brand at MOO. So I'm going to quote you again, 342 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,560 but in 2021, there's an interview with you on the MOO 343 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,640 website. You mentioned back then that you 344 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,720 didn't have a motto, but it seems that you've found one 345 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,520 since then. Maybe it's a motto, great design 346 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,880 for everyone, which is something you have on both the MOO website 347 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,000 and your personal website. So can you tell us more about 348 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,000 this vision of great design for everyone and what that means for 349 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,240 you? Sure. 350 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,280 So I would call it purpose, which is why if someone asked me 351 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,040 about a motto and I would, it's like we don't have like a one 352 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,120 for all and all for one kind of Musketeers type motto. 353 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,080 Great design for everyone is something that form of words 354 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,840 that we came across and committed to in the first few 355 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,160 years of the business and it was trying to express kind of the 356 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,960 DNA, the belief system of the business, like, you know, 357 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,080 believing in democracy or believing in whatever. 358 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,760 It's not a business strategy, it's not a it's not a mission 359 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,040 statement. It's much more, I suppose it's 360 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,480 well, I can, I can unpack it and explain what it means to me. 361 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,240 But but we think of it as a kind of a purpose and a belief 362 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,360 system. OK, so I can tell you where it 363 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,120 came from. So before I started the 364 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,680 business, I graduated from university in 2000. 365 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,640 I went to work for a design company 1st for a technology 366 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,840 company, the tech start up for a couple of years. 367 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,080 Then I went to work for a design company for a couple of years 368 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,760 and I founded new in 2004 after I've been worked for about four 369 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:23,440 years. And my sort of desire, what I 370 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,760 wanted to build and how I wanted to build it was born out of 371 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,920 frustrations from both of those two worlds. 372 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,520 Initially, you know, I had loved working in a tech business, but 373 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,360 it was all kind of everything was quite scruffy and, you know, 374 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:37,800 not very functional. You know, it was the world's our 375 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,960 oyster and technology's going to eat everything. 376 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,840 And but it was, it wasn't particularly aesthetically 377 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,120 interesting to me. And then spending time in the 378 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,840 design world, everything's beautifully, excessively 379 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,840 interesting, but it might be very expensive. 380 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,080 It might be hard to think about how anyone could afford this 381 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,840 stuff. It was for an elite audience. 382 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,280 So great Design for everyone means that we believe in trying 383 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,040 to break down the boundaries of design like design can. 384 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,520 Design is a process, it's a product, it's an outcome. 385 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,440 It's a way of thinking a lot of different things. 386 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,920 But fundamentally, we want to use technology. 387 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,600 We want to use our manufacturing innovation to make design more 388 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,040 accessible for people. That means maintaining standards 389 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,520 and quality. That means innovating, but it 390 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,520 also means trying to lower the price, trying to lower the 391 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,120 barriers for people to try and use these products. 392 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,560 So I could give you an example for another industry, This may 393 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,280 not be the best example, but something like Starbucks is an 394 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,440 attempt to make espresso based drinks something that everyone 395 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,280 drinks. And then Howard Schultz very, 396 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,320 very successfully executed this vision after having visited at 397 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,320 Coffee Fair in Milan when he was working in the business in the 398 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:48,280 very early days of that company. How do you create a scalable 399 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,680 high quality? You can argue whether Starbucks 400 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,800 is high quality versus other things, but it is a premium 401 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,600 product versus an instant coffee, for example. 402 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,680 So what great design for everyone means or what great 403 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,880 coffee for everyone means. And to, to make that up for 404 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,240 Starbucks, I know that's not their, their slogan is US just 405 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,000 breaking down the boundaries, helping more people get access 406 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,560 to the types of design that we we sell and trying to do that in 407 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,920 an affordable way, but having a premium product at the end. 408 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,600 Yeah, there's an interesting tension to that, right? 409 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,360 Because it's like the great design for everyone. 410 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,000 There's great design which is about quality. 411 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,080 Sometimes that's used as a proxy for just a higher price or even 412 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,880 like exclusivity, right? And, and that's one of the the 413 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,760 kind of sins in the design world. 414 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,840 There's often this kind of elite snootiness to things. 415 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,080 And then on the other hand, you have the for everyone, which is 416 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,840 about scale. And sometimes you do need to 417 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,880 make compromises to keep things, you know, below a certain price 418 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,760 point or what not. So yeah, like what are your 419 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,280 approaches at MU for maintaining this quality at scale since you 420 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,600 have grown to this global scale? So I think that it's a great 421 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,840 question. There is that tension, of 422 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,560 course, and I mean IKEA has this nice thing where the, you know, 423 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,760 the first thing on the page is the price it's going to sell 424 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:05,880 for. I mean, that is that really 425 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,480 focuses the mind when you have to design A sofa for 50 bucks or 426 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,680 something. For us, maybe it's similar like 427 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,000 hit a range of price points we can design for. 428 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,600 You know, they're going to start at super accessible. 429 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,880 What's the best thing we can do at that price point? 430 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Not necessarily how we're going to make the most money, but what 431 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,680 can we make that we'll be proud of, that we can deliver at this 432 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,600 price point using the best materials, but also what can we 433 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,840 do at this higher price point? What can we deliver it, you 434 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,800 know, two or three times that price, But it's attention. 435 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,800 We attention we deal with, you know, all the time. 436 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,280 I think, I suppose I want to challenge some of the some of 437 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,160 what's behind your question and be make for an interesting 438 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,480 conversation. I think a lot of the design 439 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,800 should be popular, right? I think design should be 440 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,400 enjoyed. I think it should be something 441 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,040 that many, many people have access to, whether that's 442 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,360 renting, visiting, owning, you know, on all those different 443 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:59,800 levels. I think designing something that 444 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,720 is for a very few, for very few people, maybe it makes me feel a 445 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,840 bit sad that, you know, that it's so exclusive. 446 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,400 And I think there's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing 447 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,840 around, you know, is it starting with the price? 448 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,520 We're going to make this inaccessible and then we're 449 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,640 going to build something around that? 450 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,080 Or is it, you know, the kind of a Vapelin effect where it's like 451 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,920 pricing is the exclusivity, Like we're just going to price the 452 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,080 part of the market with this thing. 453 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,000 Or, you know, you see a lot of fashion brands are burning their 454 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,440 stock at the end of the year to to, you know, reduce the amount 455 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,800 of stock on the market there. There's no resale of these 456 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:35,720 things. We're going to burn them. 457 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,960 And, you know, and I just think that's terribly sad and 458 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,440 wasteful. So I think great design should 459 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,240 be for the mainstream. I think that to innovate in that 460 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,560 space, you have to be clever about what materials you're 461 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:47,840 using. You have to be clever about your 462 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,120 logistics. You have to be clever about 463 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,440 manufacturing and supply chain. Increasingly so in the world we 464 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,200 live in today. But I have a populist view on 465 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,040 this. And I, you know, believe that 466 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,040 design is a thing we should all be able to enjoy. 467 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,600 And, you know, the cheapest new products, 5-10 bucks, you know, 468 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,960 it's super accessible. So yeah. 469 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,760 But this tension is with us always, for sure. 470 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,440 Yeah. Getting back to the idea of the 471 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,840 of the tension and the choices behind when you design your your 472 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:21,680 products, I'm also curious to hear from you how you elaborate 473 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,080 your own personal relationship with design and how did you get 474 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,680 interested in design in the 1st place, So before you, before you 475 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,960 founded your own company? Sure. 476 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,040 Well, I probably didn't think about it as design much. 477 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,760 My my grandfather was an architect and we used to visit 478 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,720 him every year and he he had built his own kind of mid 479 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,480 century house filled with furniture from the era. 480 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,040 I remember sitting on his kind of Eames lounge chair and 481 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,200 Ottoman and just being like, I really like this thing. 482 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,080 I don't know why I like it, but I really like it as a, you know, 483 00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:00,880 7 year old, 6 year old kid and being in this space that was 484 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,560 different to other houses because it was designed by him 485 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,960 and in a geography that he had tailored for a house itself. 486 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,560 So kind of my first experience even thinking about design was, 487 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,520 was of architecture and architectural spaces and and 488 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,120 furniture. Passion for design probably 489 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:21,120 manifested through film more so than through product design or 490 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:23,800 other things or graphic design or maybe graphic design in 491 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,560 films. I remember as a kid I was, I was 492 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,920 an obsessive collector of films and probably still I am, and 493 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,480 watching things like John Carpenter movies from the 70s 494 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,360 and seeing this very kind of utter mindset. 495 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,400 And I'm going to be called John Carpenter's The Thing, You know, 496 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,760 he's going to have his name above it, like Zuckerberg's 497 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Facebook, you know, in the early days. 498 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,000 And he would design the music and he would design, he would 499 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,000 write the film and he would shoot the film and he would 500 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,040 produce it. And it was this amazing. 501 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,600 The film is a, is a sort of multidisciplinary design 502 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,760 exercise with ultimate control. I mean, just thought, you know, 503 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,560 I was fascinated by that. Now, I suppose that's somewhat 504 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:07,080 correlates to my, my interest in entrepreneurship because if you 505 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,040 are a bit of a control freak, it's the perfect, it's the 506 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,960 perfect career for you. Being able to influence all the 507 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,040 different things, you know, kind of around you. 508 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:19,120 Film was probably the first thing that I got into and maybe 509 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,880 think about design or designing things. 510 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,640 Right, yeah. Your answer kind of has me 511 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,760 thinking about like, yeah, this blurring of boundaries, right? 512 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760 Because it's like creating a company as an entrepreneur, 513 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,720 growing that company is like the ultimate design projects, right? 514 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,600 Because it's not just about like the individual product or 515 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,840 service that you're crafting, but there's the whole business 516 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,440 model behind it and making sure that you can stay in business 517 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,360 and grow and all of that, as you were saying, like similar to 518 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,160 film, right? Because all of these great 519 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:47,240 auteurs, like are not just artists. 520 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,600 They have to get millions of dollars just to make the film 521 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160 and have this huge team that they have to manage to make it. 522 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,800 Yep. So I wanted to turn to the theme 523 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,240 of the season of the podcast, which is design and performance. 524 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,640 And we've had guests look at this in different ways. 525 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,360 You know, I mean, this interview was a kind of performance, but 526 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:09,680 also we could talk about like business performance, a high 527 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,520 performing team in the context of MU or your own performance as 528 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,600 a leader. So just this is an open-ended 529 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,400 question for you to interpret design and performance in your 530 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,840 own way and refund it. And if you have anything to 531 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,760 share with our listeners or our viewers, if folks are watching 532 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,120 this on YouTube, Yeah. I was thinking about this and I 533 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,600 was thinking about film and running a business and I was 534 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,000 thinking about it this. When I was thinking about 535 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,280 performance in particular, there was a scene from a from a 536 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,840 documentary that I watched, which I think is my favorite 537 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,160 Collaborate. Like there aren't a lot of films 538 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,240 or documentaries that show you into the boardroom in a company, 539 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,280 You know, they fictionalize those things, right? 540 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,200 There aren't a lot of films that show you a creative team meeting 541 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,920 in a company or a decision meeting or what executive 542 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,120 meeting because they want to be secretive about that stuff and 543 00:26:56,120 --> 00:27:00,240 it's very messy often. So I and I think about 544 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,360 performance particularly at no as being about being able to 545 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,000 bring, we're vertically integrated, right? 546 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,960 We manufacture our products, we decorate them. 547 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,600 We're the printer, right. But we also design our products. 548 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,040 We're the design company. It's all in house. 549 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,520 We do all the customer service in house. 550 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,400 We design all the technology in house, a full stack, you know, 551 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,680 business. And the secret to being 552 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,400 successful is being able to bring all of those disciplines 553 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,000 together and make it work. Not just make it work like we 554 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,680 can physically make the product, but make it work like the margin 555 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,400 is good. There's demand from the 556 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,080 customer. We know how to market it. 557 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,320 You know, it's good for the planet. 558 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040 You know, there's 25 things that that need to come together. 559 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,160 There's no way you can do that without true collaboration. 560 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,840 So I was just thinking about this fantastic documentary 561 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,640 called Sound City, which is about recording studio in 562 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,920 California that Fleetwood Mac recorded. 563 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,480 Rumors in that Nirvana recorded Never Minded and Dave Grohl 564 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,200 produced this this documentary and there's a scene where Dave 565 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:09,040 Grohl, Josh Homme from Brain is gone, Queens and Steinage and 566 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,360 Trent Reznor write a song together. 567 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:17,280 You have three independent musicians, superstars, soloists, 568 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,760 leaders of their bands come together and write a song, one 569 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,800 on the piano, one on the bass, one on the guitar and singing. 570 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,080 Amazing. And the respect and the skills 571 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,480 and the collaboration, it's just incredible. 572 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,120 And I think, but when I think about how we think, when we 573 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:37,800 think about performance at the moment, we think about, you 574 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,280 know, what do we need to do successful? 575 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,120 It is about how you bring all those disciplines together so 576 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,720 that you can make this beautiful music or, you know, roll the 577 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,440 analogy out however you like. But there's no way that we can 578 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,880 be successful as a business without having our drummer and 579 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,920 our guitarist and our, you know, like, come together and do their 580 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,160 thing in time with everyone else, right, In a complementary 581 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,120 way to everyone else. So I love the musical analogy 582 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,880 and and you know, that's another kind of like high performing 583 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,960 weirdos. You know, that's that's music 584 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,160 all over, right? That is exactly what it's about. 585 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,840 You know, you've got really, really strong performers, but 586 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,040 they have to be able to play its band. 587 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,480 Yeah, yeah, that also reminds me of this is another 588 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,800 recommendation for our listeners, our viewers, The 589 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,120 Beatles documentary series get back the Peter Jackson one, 590 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,680 right? Where they're just like, jamming 591 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,480 in the studio for the Let It Be album. 592 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,480 And I think it's like Paul McCartney starts something and 593 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,680 they all like you. McCartney starts playing Get 594 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:31,720 Back. Yeah. 595 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,280 And you literally see. Yeah. 596 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,120 And you see music get written in front of your, you see, you 597 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,680 know, what would you perceive to be genius? 598 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,440 And it is genius. But it's so in a way, it's so 599 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,400 banal. It's just him playing on the 600 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,440 guitar, but you see the song pour out of him that you've 601 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,680 heard a million times. It's just amazing, incredible. 602 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,040 Yeah, very organic with designer. 603 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,360 Yeah, yeah. So Richard, still Speaking of 604 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,880 performance, can you share with us what has been the best, the 605 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,760 best failure or some type of unexpected outcome that taught 606 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,680 you about performance? Yeah. 607 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,640 I think that the best failure is probably launching business 608 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,400 cards. So I mean that sounds strange, 609 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,480 but I'll explain it to you. So when we started, we were the 610 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,720 anti business card, we were the personal card or the pleasure 611 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,400 card and we wanted nothing to do with business cards because they 612 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,040 were boring and they were traditional and why would we do 613 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,720 that? And that was in the early days 614 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,880 and when we started moving into working with social networks 615 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,280 and, and being AB to C brand, working with Skype, working with 616 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,840 Flickr, working with these guys, one of our investors quite 617 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,680 rightly said to us, you know, you're going to do business 618 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,080 cards at some point and we'd be taking all these weird products. 619 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,840 So we saw these little skinny mini cards. 620 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,720 We made these funny note cards and sticker books. 621 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,360 These were all products that were very cool and very, very 622 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,400 different. But no one was looking for them. 623 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,480 No one was going onto Google and saying what I really need is a 624 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,840 funny shaped card. You know, there's no like 625 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,120 keywords such As for these products and I was incredibly 626 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,880 resistant to to doing a business card because it was like selling 627 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,760 out to go back to the music. You know, it's like trying to 628 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,480 write your second album that sounded like the first album 629 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,120 wasn't different, wasn't you? And when I finally kind of 630 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,720 capitulated and said, OK, we'll do it, but we'll do it in our 631 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,160 way. And we'll make a beautiful 632 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,240 recycled paper and we'll put it in a, you know, we'll make a 633 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,600 beautiful box, the boxes with different, but, you know, same 634 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,280 kind of idea, beautiful packaging. 635 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,120 And we'll tell this story in our own way. 636 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Basically the sales doubled overnight and just kept growing 637 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,000 because finally we had all of the DNA of a product business 638 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,600 that knew how to design remarkable different beautiful 639 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,480 things, finally selling products that people also wanted. 640 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,800 So it was a very important learning for me. 641 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,080 I think my values were very anti business cards and in the 642 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,080 basically deciding that we were going to try it after having 643 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,080 already put pressure put on me was the best decision we could 644 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,040 have made. It's business. 645 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,040 I guess it was a failure. It was a failure that we didn't 646 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,440 do it sooner, probably looking back, but yeah, it was that 647 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:07,960 transformed the business success. 648 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,080 Very cool. Another angle to explore this 649 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,040 performance theme is about your personal rituals or habits as a 650 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,240 leader. Do you have any of those that 651 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,320 are like maybe daily or weekly? And we could be any sort of time 652 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,040 scale? But yeah, what are they? 653 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,160 How did you develop them? Yeah, none. 654 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,440 I want to share. I think like we, we're a bunch 655 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,560 of weirdos, right? Yeah, it's a little bit weird. 656 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,120 And also I'm I'm often very wary of giving advice because I think 657 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,160 every journey is different and every person is different. 658 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:46,800 I think the biggest like hack at doing this is really, I know 659 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,600 it's super obvious, super obvious to say, but doing 660 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,040 something in a space you actually care about that you're 661 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,840 interested in. I think there are a lot of very 662 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,920 smart people who will be very successful who are going into 663 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,960 spaces that are exciting or have value to them where there's a 664 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,000 lot of hype. Let's say AI, you know, like 665 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,240 pick AI for no reason other than the fact that it is big at the 666 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,440 moment. And people opportunistically 667 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,840 going into that space and saying that they're going to build an 668 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,120 AI business, which is fine. But when it gets hard and when 669 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,840 it, you know, if that's not your passion or it's not your skill, 670 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,800 it's going to be so much harder. And it's always hard, right? 671 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,280 Like for 99.9% of people, it's very hard. 672 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,600 Most businesses fail, like 2/3 of businesses go out of business 673 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,200 in the first couple of years. So pick something you really 674 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,720 care about. You'll work so much harder on it 675 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,000 and care so much more about it. I suppose the thing you need to 676 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,640 avoid is the thing that I was doing, which is like getting my 677 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,440 being too belligerent about executing your vision in a 678 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,440 certain way and not being wise to commercial opportunities when 679 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,400 they're there. But you know, I really care 680 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,960 about what we do and what we make. 681 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,760 It's a passion of mine as a consumer and as a business 682 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,440 person. I think this journey, I would 683 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,560 have packed packed it in a long time ago. 684 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,400 I think of it was something I wasn't passionate about. 685 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,800 So very, very, very lucky to be doing something that I care 686 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,280 about. Yeah. 687 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,920 And as that sort of continuing that momentum, are there places 688 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,199 where you go for inspiration? Like how do you stay innovative 689 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,960 and up to date? Yeah, I go shopping. 690 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,639 I go shopping a lot. Not to buy, not to buy anything. 691 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,199 Like I'm a real window shopper. So I go to the stores when I 692 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,080 visit other countries, I love going to the shops to see what 693 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,040 supermarkets might be probably like. 694 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:37,800 What's the branding like in the store? 695 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,320 Like what food, you know, like I remember going to just a few 696 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,840 years back, just tiny little things. 697 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,920 I only going to tiny, tiny supermarket in Italy and they 698 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,120 had organized the food in the supermarket by the miles it 699 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,159 traveled to the supermarket. Those tiny little details just 700 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:58,080 so just so interesting. Like tomatoes were the front 701 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,240 because they'd come from down there. 702 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,600 It was like, I'm not saying this is like a big thing. 703 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,440 It was just the first time I'd ever seen it. 704 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,040 I was like, oh, that's really interesting. 705 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,720 Yeah. So I love going to the shops. 706 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,480 I love travel as well. So I love going and looking at 707 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,840 the windows of stores in other countries, particularly going to 708 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,200 Asia, where in my business, in the stationary business, there's 709 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,000 a lot going on and a lot to be inspired by. 710 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,160 So yeah, or, or, or shopping online. 711 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,640 I'm an incessant bookmarker and record keeper. 712 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,920 You know, I, yeah, I bookmark millions and millions of things 713 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,480 to go back into, to rediscover later. 714 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Yeah, I'm with you on the supermarket thing. 715 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,080 I was in Portugal on vacation last month that we just went to 716 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,600 the supermarket, not because we needed anything, but it was just 717 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,880 to see like, OK, how do people here shop? 718 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,720 How do they live And then? Culture. 719 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,000 Culture is represented in what you eat, you know, is it is it a 720 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,280 bunch of stuff in the freezer or is it all Whole Foods that 721 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,360 people were chopping up and turning into dinner every like 722 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,400 You'll learn a lot about a country by what what the 723 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,640 supermarket looks like. For sure. 724 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,520 So to wrap up our conversation today, we wanted to hear your 725 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,760 recommendation for our listeners and that could be a book, a 726 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,280 show, a movie or some other type of media that you would like to 727 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,320 share that kind. Of given by. 728 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,040 Your. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 729 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,080 So given my my early passion for film, I think it'd have to be a 730 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,240 film. Can I cheat and give you a 731 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,080 double bill? Yeah, totally. 732 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:27,640 Yeah. Yeah. 733 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,640 All right. OK. 734 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,040 So we'll post links to all of these too, but it's helpful to 735 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:32,840 hear from you. Yeah. 736 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,800 I I think one of the most amazing films I've ever seen is 737 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,440 The Holy Mountain by Alejandro Jodorowski. 738 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,400 It is an insane massive budget, crazy designers fantasy. 739 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,000 It is beautiful and shocking and weird and insane. 740 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,240 And I would double bill it with Jodorovsky's June, which is the 741 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,320 story of how he nearly made the film June, which David Lynch 742 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,200 went on to make and subsequently has been remade again recently. 743 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,440 Watching the finished version of his masterpiece in the Holy 744 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,960 Mountain is an incredible thing. And then watching his process as 745 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,120 a film maker and watching him try to raise money and try to 746 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,840 get, you know, a Pink Floyd to soundtrack and trying to get all 747 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,080 these amazing people involved. It is like watching or hearing a 748 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,680 story about stuffed up the crazy founder. 749 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:30,120 So I think those two films, Holly Mountain is an amazing 750 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,320 film for designers to watch because it's just so rich and 751 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,280 filled with incredible visual imagery. 752 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,600 And then watching the documentary about about Dune and 753 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,440 how hard it is to actually do these things, I think it's an 754 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,960 inspirational double built watch late at night. 755 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,200 I think that they're they're a good pet to put together. 756 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,400 Wonderful. And to finally wrap us up, 757 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,720 Richard, we'd love to give you the opportunity to do a call to 758 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,600 action. Folks just share their links, 759 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,880 whatever they want to do. Of course, we'll post links to 760 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,320 the show notes as well, but it's helpful to hear from you or see 761 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,560 from you. So yeah, where can folks go to 762 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,080 learn more about you? At your work, at MU or other 763 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,000 things that you want to get people to go to? 764 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,680 I have so little social media presence. 765 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,120 I don't I don't think I have insight. 766 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,320 It's really worth worth following. 767 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,600 Well, we'll see. Maybe the Moo blog people can go 768 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,880 check out the Moo blog or just check out moo.com and have a 769 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,560 have a look at what we do. Awesome. 770 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,000 Richard Moross, thank you so much for spending some time with 771 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,360 us today on the AIGA Design Podcast. 772 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,880 And thank you all for listening or watching. 773 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,160 Please subscribe and review us or send us a voicemail as well. 774 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,080 We'd love to hear from you. I'm Li Shawn Huang. 775 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:37,800 Until next time.