1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,600 Hello and welcome to another edition of design future live 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:09,000 from aiga, the professional association for design, my name 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,400 is Li Xian zhuang director of design, content and learning 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,900 here at aiga. And in this edition of design 5 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:19,600 feature live, we have special guests Bayaud Casper Bowden 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,000 Bakr, he is in his own words. Quote obsessed with searching 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,700 for magic in the mundane while vigorously defending the 8 00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:32,900 creative process against all. Forces of evil unquote, Bayaud 9 00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:37,100 is the chief creative officer of loyal Casper and the author of 10 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,700 the new book somewhere. Yes, the search for belonging 11 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:45,600 and World shaped by branding. Band is known for Designing the 12 00:00:45,608 --> 00:00:49,700 brand identities for media properties, including peacock 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:55,700 Paramount, plus, MTV ESPN, Comedy, Central and many more. 14 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,600 And in his book, he talks about the tools of branding, which 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,500 brings People together have been weaponized by our culture around 16 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:08,200 ideals and causes that put us on a dystopian trajectory while the 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,000 same tools, also help us to find recovery and belonging. 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,800 The book has an interesting format that makes has text with 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,000 graphics and images. Unfortunately, due to a 20 00:01:19,008 --> 00:01:22,300 technical error, we lost the first few seconds of the 21 00:01:22,308 --> 00:01:24,500 original livestream. So we're going to jump straight 22 00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:28,400 into the interview with Bayaud answering my first question 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,400 about the format of The book, the book sort of looks and feels 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,800 the way it does. And I didn't really want it to 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,300 be another how to branding book, because there's a lot of a lot 26 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:43,100 of those out there. And I didn't really think I 27 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:46,400 could contribute much, you know, much a new thinking to that. 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,200 So it really is about looking at branding in a much larger 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,300 context and there's a very little that sort of, you know, 30 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:59,800 has to do with the, how to of branding and, you know, the so 31 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:03,300 Specific ways of doing it, right? 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,600 So that's really interesting. What you were alluding to with 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,800 working with the speaking coach during the public speaking about 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,500 this, and then going from, I guess the talks to the book, did 35 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,400 he tell us a little bit more about the process of doing that? 36 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,200 Because I feel like for a lot of people like writing does seem 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,900 kind of scary or kind of intimidating, and I mean, so is 38 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:27,200 public speaking, right? But to be able to have a message 39 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,700 and then work it in different media. 40 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:32,200 And The curious about that process for you, how that works 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,700 creatively. Yeah, for sure. 42 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:39,500 You know, I thought writing has always been something that I 43 00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:44,500 really gravitate towards too, and I like, I like doing it. 44 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:51,200 And then, you know, just by the nature of being a graphic 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,900 designer, you work with words and typography all the time. 46 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:59,800 So, both from like, from a visual perspective but also from 47 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,400 a Content perspective, words and writing a I have always been 48 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,000 really important to me. So, in that sense, I've kind of 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,800 done it for a long time, not, you know, not in a context of a 50 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,000 book, really, but more in a context of, you know, 51 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,900 presentation that you gave, for example, like, I write all of 52 00:03:18,908 --> 00:03:23,400 those basic, you know, pretty meticulously, I write them out. 53 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,700 So, in that sense, it's kind of the same thing except it's, you 54 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:36,800 know, 376 Pages verse Versus, you know, a hundred slides or 55 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,200 whatnot. So that so in that sense, you 56 00:03:41,208 --> 00:03:42,900 know, I've been kind of used to it. 57 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:46,700 It's just obviously that, you know, the amount of content is 58 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,800 much larger than for a presentation. 59 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:57,300 And then, you know, the way I quote unquote, right is sort of 60 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:01,400 like, I write and then I design and then sometimes an image 61 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,100 comes first. And then sometimes the words 62 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:05,700 come After. So it really is sort of a 63 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:10,700 back-and-forth between you know shaping the visual narrative as 64 00:04:10,700 --> 00:04:13,000 well as you know the content of it. 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,800 And in that sense, it's sort of a circular circular process. 66 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,300 It kind of goes back and forth. And that ways is, you know, that 67 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:27,900 feels natural to me and I can't speak for how other writers do 68 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:31,500 it but that it works for me that way, right? 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,500 Yeah, I'm particularly interested in this. 70 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,700 It's like design early approach and now that I know that it 71 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:39,700 started out as something that you were already giving talks 72 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:43,400 about and you had slides to illustrate that, like looking at 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,800 the book. Oh, I guess I can flip through 74 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,300 some pages. Just so folks get an idea but 75 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:52,200 it's very much reminded me of Marshall, mcluhan's. 76 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,900 The medium is the massage in that we have a lot of Graphics. 77 00:04:56,900 --> 00:05:00,400 Like there's more text on some pages, but graphics and things 78 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,000 on other pages. So even though it is a thick 79 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,600 book, Is very much feels like a very quick accessible read. 80 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,500 That's very graphic in that sense. 81 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:14,000 So yeah, love to learn more about that. 82 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:17,700 You know, I guess we have a little bit of the genealogy of 83 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,800 how this came to be because it came from blocks but like as a 84 00:05:21,808 --> 00:05:24,100 designer yourself like what is this design? 85 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:26,900 Early approach versus just doing things in prose and like a quote 86 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:29,300 unquote, traditional Business book kind of way. 87 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:34,100 Yeah, I mean I'm glad you mentioned Marshall Lynn and 88 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:39,600 mostly in the sense that I just really gravitate. 89 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,100 I love books that that sort of playing the same, you know, 90 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:50,700 sandbox with visuals and typography sort of merging and 91 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:53,300 creating a very distinct narrative. 92 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,900 I also love books that that just sort of sit on my table on my 93 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:03,500 desk, and I keep going back to and Marshall, mcluhan books are 94 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:07,200 You know, that for me I feel like there's there. 95 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,600 So first of all, there are visually beautiful but then also 96 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,000 they're so dense. Content-wise, that I feel like 97 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,600 you can kind of keep going back to them. 98 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,500 Another book, I really love is Peter mandelson's. 99 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,300 What we see when we read, which is also very kind of similar in 100 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:30,200 that sense. So, you know, I've had kind of 101 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,200 not a roadmap but like, you know, other books, In that sort 102 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:42,200 of space that I that I really like in terms of, you know, how 103 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,300 I try to specifically structure. This is, you know, I didn't want 104 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:49,800 this to be a textbook. I didn't want it to be a 105 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,200 dissertation. I'm not a scholar of a branding. 106 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,700 I mean, I'm an expert in branding, but I'm not a scholar 107 00:06:55,700 --> 00:07:00,500 in, like, sort of all the other topics that I, you know, that 108 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:04,300 that sort of touch branding so I didn't want it to The a 109 00:07:04,308 --> 00:07:06,900 dissertation that didn't feel true to me. 110 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:13,300 So in that sense I really wanted to not, it's not a, it's not a 111 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:16,400 sketchy book but it's like, you know, it touches a lot of 112 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,800 different topics sort of on a circle surface level and kind of 113 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:26,100 tries to connect those. I also wanted to, you know, find 114 00:07:26,100 --> 00:07:32,700 a way to almost create difficult different levels of how you 115 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:34,000 might interact. With it. 116 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,600 Meaning, you know, you can just kind of read the headlines if 117 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,600 you want to and then they sort of connect and give you a really 118 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,800 rough outline of what the story is. 119 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:46,000 Then you can go a little bit deeper, you can read, you know, 120 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:50,000 paragraphs you can look at the images and then the last thing. 121 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 So the fourth level is kind of a small type of the bottom, which 122 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,100 is kind of my color commentary. So, in that sense, I really 123 00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:00,300 wanted to create kind of different levels of Engagement 124 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,400 again, for different purposes. I hope. 125 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,100 Both you know do the same as I do with some of these books that 126 00:08:07,100 --> 00:08:09,600 keep picking them up and kind of flipping through them and 127 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,100 reading a few pages and then putting it back down. 128 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:17,600 So that's kind of how I approached it and from the 129 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,100 people some of the people I've talked to it's been somewhat 130 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:23,600 successful lighting. Yeah, I feel like that's just 131 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:29,200 such a smart approach especially in this day and age of like most 132 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,200 of the stuff I read online is articles on the internet, right? 133 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,700 Or was the stuff I read in general, is articles on the 134 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:39,600 internet and I have easily read a lot of books to so I could do 135 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,200 these live streams of authors like you, but there is something 136 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,700 about just acknowledging. That our attention span is 137 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,900 different at different times and being able to play with 138 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:51,700 hierarchy and allow people to engage with the material in 139 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:54,600 different ways. Or maybe multiple times as well 140 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,100 through what you were talking about. 141 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,600 Yeah, you know, I think you're exactly right and again that 142 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,300 mean it's not it's not meant to, it's not necessarily meant to 143 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:10,300 mimic, you know, the sort of how our attention span is in in real 144 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,700 life, but I definitely does feel like as you mentioned right? 145 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:17,100 We have different attention spans, four different at 146 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:19,700 different times and for different purposes, right? 147 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:23,700 When we, when we scroll social media, it's, you know, pretty 148 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:27,900 short, when we read a New Yorker article, A bit longer. 149 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:34,300 So, absolutely. And I think, you know, that is 150 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:36,900 interesting, is sort of playing with the different. 151 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:43,600 The different levels of attention were able to sort of 152 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,800 give it different times. Is it's a really interesting way 153 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,900 to look at it. Sure. 154 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:51,100 Right. So, you mentioned that, this 155 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:54,500 isn't necessarily a textbook or a how-to on branding. 156 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,100 Who did you imagine? As your reader when you were 157 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:04,500 writing this or who is this aimed at That's a really 158 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:09,200 interesting question. I think I've in my sort of 159 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,800 original proposal, I think I outlined sort of three different 160 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,200 Target audiences if you will to use like a branding Turf. 161 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:23,400 But yeah, the first ring was sort of, you know, people in the 162 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:29,100 creative industry, you know, people in marketing departments 163 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:35,300 promotional departments or Various Brands the second ring I 164 00:10:35,300 --> 00:10:40,900 thought would be would be interesting would be, you know, 165 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,000 people going into this field. So you know students again in 166 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,500 the creative Industries in the third ring, I thought was kind 167 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:56,100 of general interest because I've one of the things I try to do is 168 00:10:56,100 --> 00:11:00,400 sort of demystify branding a little bit because to me and I 169 00:11:00,408 --> 00:11:07,200 realized that Um maybe kind of unique that way but I looked at 170 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,000 a lot of the world we live in and messaging and communication 171 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,300 through the lens of branding. So kind of demystify it and and 172 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:24,800 sort of showcase that were I feel like we're all using tools 173 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,900 and branding, you know, but like every day by the sort of 174 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,300 decisions we make and what we post on social media what we 175 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,100 Don't you know how we dress, what we read. 176 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,400 So if that sense, a general audiences is really interesting 177 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,500 to me and I think it could be really interesting. 178 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:51,500 What's, you know, on that note is some of the readers that I 179 00:11:51,508 --> 00:11:58,200 actually asked to sort of, you know, pre-read or early drafts 180 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,400 and even the early. Piece of the book were actually 181 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,900 people who had actually nothing to do, with design or creativity 182 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:11,200 at all because that's kind of the most interesting target 183 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,400 audience for me, you know, people who really don't think 184 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,800 about this stuff all day long, and it just might be a different 185 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,000 way of looking at the world. So in that sense that's the most 186 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,200 interesting audience to me. You know, designers marketers 187 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,300 brand Earth for answers will probably find fault. 188 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,100 It's some of my definitions or some of my, you know, some of my 189 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:39,400 thoughts. So yeah, I would hope that it 190 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,900 finds an audience kind of outside the creative space. 191 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:43,700 That would be super interesting to me. 192 00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:49,300 Yeah, I would love to dig more into the subtitle part of the 193 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:53,100 book, The search for belonging in a world shaped by branding. 194 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,300 And you address this through the lens of current events and 195 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,400 politics as well. And if I understand the 196 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,700 arguments correctly, branding is both part of the problem in 197 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:10,400 terms of politicians and other folks who are building movements 198 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,600 or mobilizing people, use branding to so division, right 199 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,900 about us and them and about, you know, creating this kind of 200 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:23,400 polarization, but branding also has the power to bring people 201 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:24,700 together and these different ways. 202 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,400 And so you play with that tension and you realize this 203 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,800 sort of double edged sword with the double-edged sword of 204 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,900 branding. So, can you talk more about that 205 00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:35,000 and maybe sort of arguments that you're making there? 206 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,400 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think you, you, you 207 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,800 know, you hit the nail on the head, it my view, Brandon 208 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,400 creates allies as well as adversaries, right? 209 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:55,300 It's, you know, the strongest spam Brands, you know, create an 210 00:13:55,300 --> 00:14:00,200 emotional connection with, you know, human beings and among 211 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,300 human beings. So you know whether that's 212 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,900 Right. Religious, you know, religious 213 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:18,400 groups that find you no meaning in life, through the shared use 214 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,200 of symbols and beliefs and stories. 215 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:27,100 You know, that's an extremely powerful form of branding, you 216 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:32,700 know, at the same time what that can lead to and has led to over 217 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:37,600 the centuries is an us. Them, you know, mentality. 218 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:42,200 And you know if it leads to will our way of looking at the world 219 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:47,300 is the right way and we need to go to war against people who 220 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:52,200 don't have the same beliefs then, you know, right there. 221 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,800 It shows both the incredible potential to bring humans 222 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,500 together but also the destructive potential to, you 223 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:05,200 know, feel Superior to another, you know, another set of human. 224 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,500 Is who, who, who might think differently, and I think the 225 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:11,000 same is true in politics today, right? 226 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:17,600 So, so those are, I feel like the kind of most most extreme 227 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:28,900 examples if you will, you know, religion and and politics, you 228 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:32,500 know, and at the same time, you know, in Commerce, we have the, 229 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,500 you know, we have a similar In a similar Dynamic that usually 230 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:41,700 doesn't lead to violence or Wars, but, you know, it can 231 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:46,200 definitely lead to people finding common purpose and 232 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:53,600 common sense in, you know, certain brands that they buy and 233 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:59,200 believe in and follow. So it kind of spans the gamut I 234 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,100 think, but it really, I think that's exactly it. 235 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:09,200 Its allies and adversaries, and And, you know, in many ways, you 236 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,700 know, once once extremely pop both are extremely powerful 237 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,900 ones, you could say is great. The other one is, you know, 238 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:20,700 maybe not. So right, let me do a quick 239 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,000 reset to welcome people who might have joined the live 240 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,600 stream a little bit in the middle of things. 241 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,900 My name is Li Shan Wong from aiga. 242 00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:32,800 I am live with Bantam Bakr. Who is the author of this book 243 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,200 somewhere? Yes, which is, which is out. 244 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,400 Day today is the release date and the subtitle of the book is 245 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,700 the search for belonging in a world shaped by branding. 246 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,900 So we've been talking about some of the political aspects of 247 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:48,200 branding and how it's both the cause of division, creating 248 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,200 these allies and adversaries. But it's also a way to bring 249 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,400 people together. I think one key quote, I think 250 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,400 that helps us understand this to from the book is branding is not 251 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,200 the answer. It is the key. 252 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,300 So I feel like there's something there, that's both. 253 00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:06,300 Saying that Brandon is very important, but there's also a 254 00:17:06,308 --> 00:17:09,099 humility to it of, like, you know, it's not V thing. 255 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:12,300 There's all sorts of other things related to this and I 256 00:17:12,308 --> 00:17:16,900 just as a quick design thing I really loved the like pre 257 00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:20,500 dog-eared Hood designs here, where I was in there when I 258 00:17:20,508 --> 00:17:24,400 first saw that I was like, oh, I really wanted to save this link. 259 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,800 It's already been kind of like, saved for me. 260 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,600 I'm like I'll do this is something to come back to. 261 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,000 So you have love for you to respond to that. 262 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,800 Branding is not. The answer is the key. 263 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,600 We'll take the dog ears if Ike. If I may first the idea there 264 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,700 was, because I've been there was a sort of a back and forth with 265 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:46,100 my editor, wonderful editor, Greenleaf books. 266 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:52,000 But she was challenging me to sort of, you know, have more 267 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,900 clear and distinct takeaways. So it feels a little less of me, 268 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,700 kind of wrestling with these big big ideas and not really having 269 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:04,200 take away. So I do have a few you I think 270 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,300 there's nine in the end but the dog ears was one of my ways to 271 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:12,300 kind of signal that this is a take away and then I extended 272 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:16,400 that to a few other pages that I thought were you know at least 273 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,100 in my mind a bit more interesting or more important 274 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:28,200 and then the other thing too to that effect I really wanted this 275 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,600 book to not feel precious. Yeah which is you know why it's 276 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,900 kind of printed on. Fairly cheap sort of newspaper 277 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,800 print and you know they're scribbles in it and you know, 278 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,000 it's all white in the hopes that it will get scuffed up. 279 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:50,500 So the idea really being that I wanted to the reader to almost 280 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,600 feel like they're coming into an ongoing conversation that's 281 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,200 already happening and they're kind of contributing to it as 282 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,100 opposed to, you know just basically find you know, finding 283 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:05,700 a finished product because I'm still wrestling with, you know, 284 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:09,400 some of the ideas in there and I'll keep wrestling with some of 285 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,800 them for a while. In terms of your specific, your 286 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,800 specific question about branding is not the answer. 287 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,500 It's a key. So obviously, you know, while I 288 00:19:25,508 --> 00:19:29,600 feel like branding is extremely powerful, obviously, I don't 289 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,800 believe that branding is going to fix all the problems that we 290 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,100 face today. That's just you know that would 291 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:40,300 be a tall order. But what I do and what I mean by 292 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:50,200 the key metaphor is branding can help shape ideas and make them 293 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:56,800 you know articulate them and sort of metaphorically, make 294 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:02,000 them strong enough to kind of you know, to have longevity. 295 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:07,200 So the metaphor For me, there is that, you know, branding being 296 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:14,100 the key branding can open doors to, you know, certain certain 297 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:17,600 aspects or certain problems that, you know, might need 298 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,200 addressing, whether it's, you know, one example for is, is 299 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,900 climate change, right? So in my, the way I see this is 300 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:32,600 that even even just the language that we use, for certain things 301 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,800 like, you know, Used to be global warming, right? 302 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,200 Which sounded nice and balmy, and then it changed to climate 303 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,700 change and more recently. I have noticed that people 304 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,700 really are talking about climate crisis or the climate 305 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:49,300 catastrophe, if you will. So, you know, if we can brand, 306 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:56,400 you know, ideas for challenges a certain way that can sort of 307 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,400 unlock the door for us to, actually, deal with it. 308 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,900 Right? Because if we keep talking about 309 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:05,700 global warming that Not carry the same urgency as climate 310 00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:09,700 crisis, right? So we really need this thing to 311 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:13,400 be branded properly, with the urgency that we need to. 312 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,700 We can open that door and start addressing it and start looking 313 00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,200 at how we might fix it if that makes any sense. 314 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:20,700 Right? And I especially with that 315 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:24,600 climate example, it starts with language in a way and obviously 316 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,200 there's things you build around the language in terms of how you 317 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,000 tell the story or any visuals. But I think that's such a clear 318 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,000 example of global warming to Climate change the climate 319 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,300 crisis and then all of the associated things around that. 320 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:40,800 But with language, as this through line. 321 00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:46,000 Yeah I was I've actually been think with some people at work. 322 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,800 We've actually thought about this for a little bit. 323 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,600 Now it would be pretty amazing if even if you know on top of 324 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:58,400 using you know the right language to Brand an issue 325 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,700 properly. If there was a visual way, you 326 00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:05,400 could do that too. Like if you had like, A Mark or 327 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,800 symbol for climate crisis, right? 328 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:12,600 That even if you, when you typed or will your wrote about it, you 329 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,000 know, visually it would actually, you know, jump out at 330 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,600 you. And I don't know how you do that 331 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,600 because you would have to like imported and keyboards and all 332 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,500 that stuff. So that's a really challenging 333 00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:27,500 but point being. Yeah. 334 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:37,900 Anyways that we can, you know, Can articulate, you know, ideas 335 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,500 and thoughts and challenges more precisely. 336 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:45,500 I think it's helpful for us to deal with some of these 337 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:49,100 challenges. I'd love to acknowledge some 338 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,800 folks on the livestream. I'm looking in the chat and we 339 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,400 have folks joining us from Houston, Texas, all the way down 340 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,200 in Chile. We have Atlanta Georgia in the 341 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,400 house and somebody from Switzerland as well. 342 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:05,700 Well, yeah, hello. So I'm not playing, you're 343 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,500 originally from Switzerland here, an immigrant in New York 344 00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:13,500 City, I'd love to hear about that experience for you, because 345 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:19,100 you explore belonging a lot and Hearing a bit about your story 346 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:21,200 in some ways. It's like you've come to a new 347 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,900 country or you've been in the US for a while now. 348 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:29,000 But in some ways, you didn't necessarily feel like the 349 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,000 country you were born into was where you belong the most. 350 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,300 So I'd love to hear a little bit about that and how that kind of 351 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:40,200 ties in to the story. Yeah, absolutely. 352 00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:50,800 Let me try to do this without without speaking ill of my of my 353 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,800 mother country II. Love Switzerland. 354 00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:00,000 Absolutely. And I love having grown up there 355 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:07,000 but the interest something it was interesting and I don't know 356 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,300 if I had noticed it when I was there at the time or whether I 357 00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:16,700 have just noticed it later in life kind of reflecting on my 358 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:22,600 you know my upbringing but I've never quite felt comfortable in 359 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:31,500 the German Swiss German language and I can't I can't tell you why 360 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:35,600 I can't put my finger on it but it's something the As just, it's 361 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,600 sort of like an undercurrent in my life and that's when I came 362 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:48,600 to the u.s. first as an exchange student, I English felt much 363 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:56,300 much closer to my heart and felt felt I felt better in the 364 00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:59,900 language than I had growing up in Switzerland. 365 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,900 And then, you know, the next transition came for me. 366 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:09,700 When I No found graphic design where I felt even more at home 367 00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,200 than, than in English, right? So I have, I feel like there's 368 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:18,500 these kind of three levels of, you know, human expression that 369 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:23,300 I've kind of gone through and I have sort of different Comfort 370 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:27,100 levels, you know, in those. And then the last thing I will 371 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:35,300 say is, you know, and is You know, I have struggled with with 372 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:39,900 my name, you know, for for a long time, especially after 373 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:44,900 coming to, you know, to America. Because nobody can nobody knows 374 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:50,100 how to pronounce it properly. So that that's another thing 375 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:55,800 that I feel like has led me to become obsessed with Clarity and 376 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:03,600 you know, clear communication and be, you know, Yeah, 377 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,700 transparent. And because I've always that's 378 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:11,300 always been a struggle for me, as well. 379 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:15,200 So it's sort of a, I would say, all those things have gotten me 380 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,600 to where I am now which is a Swiss graphic designers living 381 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,000 in New York, you know, and, you know, Still Loving graphic 382 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,100 design as much as I did. When I started Yeah, I just 383 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:31,300 wanted to highlight that. That's such an interesting way 384 00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:34,400 that you talked about, you know, going from Swiss German to 385 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,300 English to graphic design is like finding the language that 386 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,600 you're most comfortable in. I thought that was really 387 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:41,800 interesting. Point you made there. 388 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,000 Yeah, I mean, that's and frankly, that's, you know, 389 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,700 something that's only occurred to me that a quite recently 390 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,000 actually thinking and talking about the vocal, you know, as 391 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,100 it's gotten ready to be published. 392 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:00,500 And it's something that's crystallized in my mind. 393 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,900 I'm not really sure what I do with that information, but it's 394 00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:11,100 definitely, it's helped me kind of, you know, see my journey in 395 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,000 a Different Light which is super interesting. 396 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:16,300 Maybe that's the Nugget for another book after you're done. 397 00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:19,600 Yeah, that promotion. Absolutely. 398 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:24,400 So I'd love to give you bad the final word here. 399 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,300 Do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with our 400 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:28,200 audience today? And then you can also take us 401 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,500 out with where they can find the book and you online. 402 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:43,500 Final thoughts. I mean, You know, one of the 403 00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:51,600 things, as I said earlier, this book kind of this project that 404 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,700 turned into a book crew out of my sort of dislike for public 405 00:27:55,700 --> 00:28:01,300 speaking. And again just to show kind of 406 00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:05,400 how sort of ironic or Journeys can sometimes be is, I do a lot 407 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,600 more public speaking now about it. 408 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,900 But what I like most about it is having Conversations, you know, 409 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:17,600 with people like you and I've done a few podcasts now and I've 410 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,100 come to really enjoy these conversations because they 411 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:25,200 helped me look at the book and my work and almost my life 412 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,800 through kind of a different lens. 413 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,700 It's really interesting to kind of have that, you know, sort of 414 00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:35,100 a different perspective and see what people take from the book 415 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:40,000 and how they react to it, because it is absolutely clear 416 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,200 in my mind that this is Is not. This is probably the middle of 417 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,400 the journey and not this is not like a finished product, you 418 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,700 know. This is a it's a, it's an 419 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:54,500 ongoing process that. Yeah. 420 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:58,100 Who knows might lead to another book? 421 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:03,200 Who knows. So anyways I've really that's a 422 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,500 long-winded way of saying thank you so much for having me. 423 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:11,000 I really have come to like these conversations very much and I 424 00:29:11,008 --> 00:29:14,900 like The how they helped me understand my work. 425 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:19,300 And this project in particular. And in terms of where you can 426 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:23,200 get it, you can get it on Amazon. 427 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,500 If you, you know, if that's the easiest way for you to get it to 428 00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:38,400 Barnes & Noble, you can get it on an independent bookstore that 429 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,800 I well done. I can tell you exactly where On 430 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,100 Indie bound. You can get it there so please 431 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,600 support independent bookstores. If you can works for you and 432 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,700 yeah, it's available today and there's only only 19 left right 433 00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:02,100 now. So get your copy before. 434 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,600 There aren't they should get more though but also open up. 435 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,700 Thank you so much for talking to me today and with our live 436 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:11,400 audience and if you're watching the recording, thank you. 437 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:13,800 For watching or listening along as well. 438 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:15,600 Hope you also check out somewhere. 439 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,500 Yes. Online or from your local Indie 440 00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:23,000 bookstore so I'm Leith on. I'll see you next time in our 441 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,800 next live stream. Thanks everyone. 442 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:26,300 Thanks for you. Sean. 443 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,900 Thanks everybody. Take care.