Hello and welcome to another edition of design future live
from aiga, the professional association for design, my name
is Li Xian zhuang director of design, content and learning
here at aiga. And in this edition of design
feature live, we have special guests Bayaud Casper Bowden
Bakr, he is in his own words. Quote obsessed with searching
for magic in the mundane while vigorously defending the
creative process against all. Forces of evil unquote, Bayaud
is the chief creative officer of loyal Casper and the author of
the new book somewhere. Yes, the search for belonging
and World shaped by branding. Band is known for Designing the
brand identities for media properties, including peacock
Paramount, plus, MTV ESPN, Comedy, Central and many more.
And in his book, he talks about the tools of branding, which
brings People together have been weaponized by our culture around
ideals and causes that put us on a dystopian trajectory while the
same tools, also help us to find recovery and belonging.
The book has an interesting format that makes has text with
graphics and images. Unfortunately, due to a
technical error, we lost the first few seconds of the
original livestream. So we're going to jump straight
into the interview with Bayaud answering my first question
about the format of The book, the book sort of looks and feels
the way it does. And I didn't really want it to
be another how to branding book, because there's a lot of a lot
of those out there. And I didn't really think I
could contribute much, you know, much a new thinking to that.
So it really is about looking at branding in a much larger
context and there's a very little that sort of, you know,
has to do with the, how to of branding and, you know, the so
Specific ways of doing it, right?
So that's really interesting. What you were alluding to with
working with the speaking coach during the public speaking about
this, and then going from, I guess the talks to the book, did
he tell us a little bit more about the process of doing that?
Because I feel like for a lot of people like writing does seem
kind of scary or kind of intimidating, and I mean, so is
public speaking, right? But to be able to have a message
and then work it in different media.
And The curious about that process for you, how that works
creatively. Yeah, for sure.
You know, I thought writing has always been something that I
really gravitate towards too, and I like, I like doing it.
And then, you know, just by the nature of being a graphic
designer, you work with words and typography all the time.
So, both from like, from a visual perspective but also from
a Content perspective, words and writing a I have always been
really important to me. So, in that sense, I've kind of
done it for a long time, not, you know, not in a context of a
book, really, but more in a context of, you know,
presentation that you gave, for example, like, I write all of
those basic, you know, pretty meticulously, I write them out.
So, in that sense, it's kind of the same thing except it's, you
know, 376 Pages verse Versus, you know, a hundred slides or
whatnot. So that so in that sense, you
know, I've been kind of used to it.
It's just obviously that, you know, the amount of content is
much larger than for a presentation.
And then, you know, the way I quote unquote, right is sort of
like, I write and then I design and then sometimes an image
comes first. And then sometimes the words
come After. So it really is sort of a
back-and-forth between you know shaping the visual narrative as
well as you know the content of it.
And in that sense, it's sort of a circular circular process.
It kind of goes back and forth. And that ways is, you know, that
feels natural to me and I can't speak for how other writers do
it but that it works for me that way, right?
Yeah, I'm particularly interested in this.
It's like design early approach and now that I know that it
started out as something that you were already giving talks
about and you had slides to illustrate that, like looking at
the book. Oh, I guess I can flip through
some pages. Just so folks get an idea but
it's very much reminded me of Marshall, mcluhan's.
The medium is the massage in that we have a lot of Graphics.
Like there's more text on some pages, but graphics and things
on other pages. So even though it is a thick
book, Is very much feels like a very quick accessible read.
That's very graphic in that sense.
So yeah, love to learn more about that.
You know, I guess we have a little bit of the genealogy of
how this came to be because it came from blocks but like as a
designer yourself like what is this design?
Early approach versus just doing things in prose and like a quote
unquote, traditional Business book kind of way.
Yeah, I mean I'm glad you mentioned Marshall Lynn and
mostly in the sense that I just really gravitate.
I love books that that sort of playing the same, you know,
sandbox with visuals and typography sort of merging and
creating a very distinct narrative.
I also love books that that just sort of sit on my table on my
desk, and I keep going back to and Marshall, mcluhan books are
You know, that for me I feel like there's there.
So first of all, there are visually beautiful but then also
they're so dense. Content-wise, that I feel like
you can kind of keep going back to them.
Another book, I really love is Peter mandelson's.
What we see when we read, which is also very kind of similar in
that sense. So, you know, I've had kind of
not a roadmap but like, you know, other books, In that sort
of space that I that I really like in terms of, you know, how
I try to specifically structure. This is, you know, I didn't want
this to be a textbook. I didn't want it to be a
dissertation. I'm not a scholar of a branding.
I mean, I'm an expert in branding, but I'm not a scholar
in, like, sort of all the other topics that I, you know, that
that sort of touch branding so I didn't want it to The a
dissertation that didn't feel true to me.
So in that sense I really wanted to not, it's not a, it's not a
sketchy book but it's like, you know, it touches a lot of
different topics sort of on a circle surface level and kind of
tries to connect those. I also wanted to, you know, find
a way to almost create difficult different levels of how you
might interact. With it.
Meaning, you know, you can just kind of read the headlines if
you want to and then they sort of connect and give you a really
rough outline of what the story is.
Then you can go a little bit deeper, you can read, you know,
paragraphs you can look at the images and then the last thing.
So the fourth level is kind of a small type of the bottom, which
is kind of my color commentary. So, in that sense, I really
wanted to create kind of different levels of Engagement
again, for different purposes. I hope.
Both you know do the same as I do with some of these books that
keep picking them up and kind of flipping through them and
reading a few pages and then putting it back down.
So that's kind of how I approached it and from the
people some of the people I've talked to it's been somewhat
successful lighting. Yeah, I feel like that's just
such a smart approach especially in this day and age of like most
of the stuff I read online is articles on the internet, right?
Or was the stuff I read in general, is articles on the
internet and I have easily read a lot of books to so I could do
these live streams of authors like you, but there is something
about just acknowledging. That our attention span is
different at different times and being able to play with
hierarchy and allow people to engage with the material in
different ways. Or maybe multiple times as well
through what you were talking about.
Yeah, you know, I think you're exactly right and again that
mean it's not it's not meant to, it's not necessarily meant to
mimic, you know, the sort of how our attention span is in in real
life, but I definitely does feel like as you mentioned right?
We have different attention spans, four different at
different times and for different purposes, right?
When we, when we scroll social media, it's, you know, pretty
short, when we read a New Yorker article, A bit longer.
So, absolutely. And I think, you know, that is
interesting, is sort of playing with the different.
The different levels of attention were able to sort of
give it different times. Is it's a really interesting way
to look at it. Sure.
Right. So, you mentioned that, this
isn't necessarily a textbook or a how-to on branding.
Who did you imagine? As your reader when you were
writing this or who is this aimed at That's a really
interesting question. I think I've in my sort of
original proposal, I think I outlined sort of three different
Target audiences if you will to use like a branding Turf.
But yeah, the first ring was sort of, you know, people in the
creative industry, you know, people in marketing departments
promotional departments or Various Brands the second ring I
thought would be would be interesting would be, you know,
people going into this field. So you know students again in
the creative Industries in the third ring, I thought was kind
of general interest because I've one of the things I try to do is
sort of demystify branding a little bit because to me and I
realized that Um maybe kind of unique that way but I looked at
a lot of the world we live in and messaging and communication
through the lens of branding. So kind of demystify it and and
sort of showcase that were I feel like we're all using tools
and branding, you know, but like every day by the sort of
decisions we make and what we post on social media what we
Don't you know how we dress, what we read.
So if that sense, a general audiences is really interesting
to me and I think it could be really interesting.
What's, you know, on that note is some of the readers that I
actually asked to sort of, you know, pre-read or early drafts
and even the early. Piece of the book were actually
people who had actually nothing to do, with design or creativity
at all because that's kind of the most interesting target
audience for me, you know, people who really don't think
about this stuff all day long, and it just might be a different
way of looking at the world. So in that sense that's the most
interesting audience to me. You know, designers marketers
brand Earth for answers will probably find fault.
It's some of my definitions or some of my, you know, some of my
thoughts. So yeah, I would hope that it
finds an audience kind of outside the creative space.
That would be super interesting to me.
Yeah, I would love to dig more into the subtitle part of the
book, The search for belonging in a world shaped by branding.
And you address this through the lens of current events and
politics as well. And if I understand the
arguments correctly, branding is both part of the problem in
terms of politicians and other folks who are building movements
or mobilizing people, use branding to so division, right
about us and them and about, you know, creating this kind of
polarization, but branding also has the power to bring people
together and these different ways.
And so you play with that tension and you realize this
sort of double edged sword with the double-edged sword of
branding. So, can you talk more about that
and maybe sort of arguments that you're making there?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think you, you, you
know, you hit the nail on the head, it my view, Brandon
creates allies as well as adversaries, right?
It's, you know, the strongest spam Brands, you know, create an
emotional connection with, you know, human beings and among
human beings. So you know whether that's
Right. Religious, you know, religious
groups that find you no meaning in life, through the shared use
of symbols and beliefs and stories.
You know, that's an extremely powerful form of branding, you
know, at the same time what that can lead to and has led to over
the centuries is an us. Them, you know, mentality.
And you know if it leads to will our way of looking at the world
is the right way and we need to go to war against people who
don't have the same beliefs then, you know, right there.
It shows both the incredible potential to bring humans
together but also the destructive potential to, you
know, feel Superior to another, you know, another set of human.
Is who, who, who might think differently, and I think the
same is true in politics today, right?
So, so those are, I feel like the kind of most most extreme
examples if you will, you know, religion and and politics, you
know, and at the same time, you know, in Commerce, we have the,
you know, we have a similar In a similar Dynamic that usually
doesn't lead to violence or Wars, but, you know, it can
definitely lead to people finding common purpose and
common sense in, you know, certain brands that they buy and
believe in and follow. So it kind of spans the gamut I
think, but it really, I think that's exactly it.
Its allies and adversaries, and And, you know, in many ways, you
know, once once extremely pop both are extremely powerful
ones, you could say is great. The other one is, you know,
maybe not. So right, let me do a quick
reset to welcome people who might have joined the live
stream a little bit in the middle of things.
My name is Li Shan Wong from aiga.
I am live with Bantam Bakr. Who is the author of this book
somewhere? Yes, which is, which is out.
Day today is the release date and the subtitle of the book is
the search for belonging in a world shaped by branding.
So we've been talking about some of the political aspects of
branding and how it's both the cause of division, creating
these allies and adversaries. But it's also a way to bring
people together. I think one key quote, I think
that helps us understand this to from the book is branding is not
the answer. It is the key.
So I feel like there's something there, that's both.
Saying that Brandon is very important, but there's also a
humility to it of, like, you know, it's not V thing.
There's all sorts of other things related to this and I
just as a quick design thing I really loved the like pre
dog-eared Hood designs here, where I was in there when I
first saw that I was like, oh, I really wanted to save this link.
It's already been kind of like, saved for me.
I'm like I'll do this is something to come back to.
So you have love for you to respond to that.
Branding is not. The answer is the key.
We'll take the dog ears if Ike. If I may first the idea there
was, because I've been there was a sort of a back and forth with
my editor, wonderful editor, Greenleaf books.
But she was challenging me to sort of, you know, have more
clear and distinct takeaways. So it feels a little less of me,
kind of wrestling with these big big ideas and not really having
take away. So I do have a few you I think
there's nine in the end but the dog ears was one of my ways to
kind of signal that this is a take away and then I extended
that to a few other pages that I thought were you know at least
in my mind a bit more interesting or more important
and then the other thing too to that effect I really wanted this
book to not feel precious. Yeah which is you know why it's
kind of printed on. Fairly cheap sort of newspaper
print and you know they're scribbles in it and you know,
it's all white in the hopes that it will get scuffed up.
So the idea really being that I wanted to the reader to almost
feel like they're coming into an ongoing conversation that's
already happening and they're kind of contributing to it as
opposed to, you know just basically find you know, finding
a finished product because I'm still wrestling with, you know,
some of the ideas in there and I'll keep wrestling with some of
them for a while. In terms of your specific, your
specific question about branding is not the answer.
It's a key. So obviously, you know, while I
feel like branding is extremely powerful, obviously, I don't
believe that branding is going to fix all the problems that we
face today. That's just you know that would
be a tall order. But what I do and what I mean by
the key metaphor is branding can help shape ideas and make them
you know articulate them and sort of metaphorically, make
them strong enough to kind of you know, to have longevity.
So the metaphor For me, there is that, you know, branding being
the key branding can open doors to, you know, certain certain
aspects or certain problems that, you know, might need
addressing, whether it's, you know, one example for is, is
climate change, right? So in my, the way I see this is
that even even just the language that we use, for certain things
like, you know, Used to be global warming, right?
Which sounded nice and balmy, and then it changed to climate
change and more recently. I have noticed that people
really are talking about climate crisis or the climate
catastrophe, if you will. So, you know, if we can brand,
you know, ideas for challenges a certain way that can sort of
unlock the door for us to, actually, deal with it.
Right? Because if we keep talking about
global warming that Not carry the same urgency as climate
crisis, right? So we really need this thing to
be branded properly, with the urgency that we need to.
We can open that door and start addressing it and start looking
at how we might fix it if that makes any sense.
Right? And I especially with that
climate example, it starts with language in a way and obviously
there's things you build around the language in terms of how you
tell the story or any visuals. But I think that's such a clear
example of global warming to Climate change the climate
crisis and then all of the associated things around that.
But with language, as this through line.
Yeah I was I've actually been think with some people at work.
We've actually thought about this for a little bit.
Now it would be pretty amazing if even if you know on top of
using you know the right language to Brand an issue
properly. If there was a visual way, you
could do that too. Like if you had like, A Mark or
symbol for climate crisis, right?
That even if you, when you typed or will your wrote about it, you
know, visually it would actually, you know, jump out at
you. And I don't know how you do that
because you would have to like imported and keyboards and all
that stuff. So that's a really challenging
but point being. Yeah.
Anyways that we can, you know, Can articulate, you know, ideas
and thoughts and challenges more precisely.
I think it's helpful for us to deal with some of these
challenges. I'd love to acknowledge some
folks on the livestream. I'm looking in the chat and we
have folks joining us from Houston, Texas, all the way down
in Chile. We have Atlanta Georgia in the
house and somebody from Switzerland as well.
Well, yeah, hello. So I'm not playing, you're
originally from Switzerland here, an immigrant in New York
City, I'd love to hear about that experience for you, because
you explore belonging a lot and Hearing a bit about your story
in some ways. It's like you've come to a new
country or you've been in the US for a while now.
But in some ways, you didn't necessarily feel like the
country you were born into was where you belong the most.
So I'd love to hear a little bit about that and how that kind of
ties in to the story. Yeah, absolutely.
Let me try to do this without without speaking ill of my of my
mother country II. Love Switzerland.
Absolutely. And I love having grown up there
but the interest something it was interesting and I don't know
if I had noticed it when I was there at the time or whether I
have just noticed it later in life kind of reflecting on my
you know my upbringing but I've never quite felt comfortable in
the German Swiss German language and I can't I can't tell you why
I can't put my finger on it but it's something the As just, it's
sort of like an undercurrent in my life and that's when I came
to the u.s. first as an exchange student, I English felt much
much closer to my heart and felt felt I felt better in the
language than I had growing up in Switzerland.
And then, you know, the next transition came for me.
When I No found graphic design where I felt even more at home
than, than in English, right? So I have, I feel like there's
these kind of three levels of, you know, human expression that
I've kind of gone through and I have sort of different Comfort
levels, you know, in those. And then the last thing I will
say is, you know, and is You know, I have struggled with with
my name, you know, for for a long time, especially after
coming to, you know, to America. Because nobody can nobody knows
how to pronounce it properly. So that that's another thing
that I feel like has led me to become obsessed with Clarity and
you know, clear communication and be, you know, Yeah,
transparent. And because I've always that's
always been a struggle for me, as well.
So it's sort of a, I would say, all those things have gotten me
to where I am now which is a Swiss graphic designers living
in New York, you know, and, you know, Still Loving graphic
design as much as I did. When I started Yeah, I just
wanted to highlight that. That's such an interesting way
that you talked about, you know, going from Swiss German to
English to graphic design is like finding the language that
you're most comfortable in. I thought that was really
interesting. Point you made there.
Yeah, I mean, that's and frankly, that's, you know,
something that's only occurred to me that a quite recently
actually thinking and talking about the vocal, you know, as
it's gotten ready to be published.
And it's something that's crystallized in my mind.
I'm not really sure what I do with that information, but it's
definitely, it's helped me kind of, you know, see my journey in
a Different Light which is super interesting.
Maybe that's the Nugget for another book after you're done.
Yeah, that promotion. Absolutely.
So I'd love to give you bad the final word here.
Do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with our
audience today? And then you can also take us
out with where they can find the book and you online.
Final thoughts. I mean, You know, one of the
things, as I said earlier, this book kind of this project that
turned into a book crew out of my sort of dislike for public
speaking. And again just to show kind of
how sort of ironic or Journeys can sometimes be is, I do a lot
more public speaking now about it.
But what I like most about it is having Conversations, you know,
with people like you and I've done a few podcasts now and I've
come to really enjoy these conversations because they
helped me look at the book and my work and almost my life
through kind of a different lens.
It's really interesting to kind of have that, you know, sort of
a different perspective and see what people take from the book
and how they react to it, because it is absolutely clear
in my mind that this is Is not. This is probably the middle of
the journey and not this is not like a finished product, you
know. This is a it's a, it's an
ongoing process that. Yeah.
Who knows might lead to another book?
Who knows. So anyways I've really that's a
long-winded way of saying thank you so much for having me.
I really have come to like these conversations very much and I
like The how they helped me understand my work.
And this project in particular. And in terms of where you can
get it, you can get it on Amazon.
If you, you know, if that's the easiest way for you to get it to
Barnes & Noble, you can get it on an independent bookstore that
I well done. I can tell you exactly where On
Indie bound. You can get it there so please
support independent bookstores. If you can works for you and
yeah, it's available today and there's only only 19 left right
now. So get your copy before.
There aren't they should get more though but also open up.
Thank you so much for talking to me today and with our live
audience and if you're watching the recording, thank you.
For watching or listening along as well.
Hope you also check out somewhere.
Yes. Online or from your local Indie
bookstore so I'm Leith on. I'll see you next time in our
next live stream. Thanks everyone.
Thanks for you. Sean.
Thanks everybody. Take care.