1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,440 The role of the designer is to truly design the context, and 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:04,880 it's not actually to design the tree. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,560 Hello everyone. Welcome back to a new episode of 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,160 the AIGA Design Podcast. I'm Julia Donatello, design 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,880 competitions and Event manager at AIGA, the professional 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,480 association for design. And I'm Li Shan Huang, Co 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,440 executive director of learning and programs here at AIGA. 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,000 This season on the show, we're exploring the theme Eyes on 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,600 Design. Zeus team is inspired by the 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,600 legacy of the AIJ publication called Eye on Design that ran 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,560 from 2015 until 2022 and challenged us from the design 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,000 community to look deeper and critically about the role of 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,200 design in today's society. So for this season we have three 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,040 different eyes, which are the lenses that we're looking 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,120 through the programming this year. 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,240 The first one, the critical eye, which is about moving beyond the 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,000 surface with analysis and critique of how we design and 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,480 how design shapes the world around us. 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,440 This includes rigorous examination, challenging 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,520 assumption and providing the well reasoned perspective of 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,200 essential and healthy perspective around the design 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,000 practice. We also have the connecting eye, 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,040 which bridges design with other disciplines like the arts, 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,160 business, education, technology and beyond. 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,000 And finally, the Future Eye, which involves navigating the 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,520 disruption from AI and new technologies as well as keeping 27 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,400 our eyes on the targets for sustainability and equitable 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,200 development. And now to introduce our guests 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,360 for this episode, we have Todd Breacher. 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,160 He's an award-winning industrial designer and founder and 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,040 principal at Breacher, recognized for blending human 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,080 centered innovation with sustainability and purpose 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,840 driven design. He's named International 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,200 Designer of the Year 3 times and recognized by Wallpaper Magazine 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,520 as a top top global design influencer, and he has also led 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,720 the design of innovative products and strategies for some 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,960 of the world's most iconic design and fashion brands. 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,160 Welcome, Todd. Thank you. 39 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:14,480 It's good to be here. I appreciate it. 40 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,440 Yeah, it's great to have you, Todd. 41 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Let's just jump right in. Let's start with a bit of your 42 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,640 origin story. You have had a career in 43 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:25,640 industrial design. You studied interior and 44 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:27,320 furniture design and grad school. 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,120 Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story, what 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,040 sparked your curiosity and your interest in design? 47 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,320 And yeah, we'll go from there. Sure, it's kind of, I don't know 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,080 if it's an unusual story, but I had a school teacher mother and 49 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,120 a Carpenter father father. So right there I think was 50 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,360 enough of the recipe for building and learning. 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:54,800 But I applied to design school in 1996 as an illustrator and to 52 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,400 get into, I didn't realize it was actually design school. 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,560 It was a Pratt Institute and but to get into the schools to 54 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,280 become a drawer, you had to take sort of a visual course and the 55 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,400 visual visual exam. And one of the requirements was 56 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,440 to design this kind of respirator situation. 57 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,560 It was quite a complex brief and, and remember, I did this 58 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,960 whole thing and I really deep dove it and I found it really 59 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,440 fascinating. And at the end of it I said, 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,760 well, what was that? Because that wasn't just 61 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,720 drawing, it wasn't, you know, architecture, it wasn't, it was 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,120 something new. It combined physics, it combined 63 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,800 science, it combined illustration sort of 64 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,280 engineering. What is this thing? 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,960 And that's when they said it's that's industrial design. 66 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,120 I said, OK, that's that's what I want to do. 67 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,440 So right there in 1996, I just took that decision and it was 68 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,480 sort of interesting because at that time there weren't really 69 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,480 design schools. I mean, there were of course, 70 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,520 there was a handful, but now you can study industrial design 71 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:50,760 online, you know, it's everywhere. 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,640 So it's amazing how much it's evolved just in these few, but I 73 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,680 think are a few short years. Awesome. 74 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,080 Very cool, Todd. And also we learned that you're 75 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:04,920 launching a new book next month, so March, and it's Fiden's first 76 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,320 monograph called Observations, Research and Design. 77 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,440 Can you give us a little sneak peek of what to expect from this 78 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,360 book? And also, what does this 79 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,120 project, the there's no project mean to you personally in in the 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,959 current moment of your career? I appreciate it. 81 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:23,400 Yeah. So I'm thrilled to have this 82 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,080 opportunity with Fiden. It's the first monograph by an 83 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,240 American of an American designer. 84 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,200 So that's quite, quite exciting. American design always tends to 85 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,160 take second fiddle. So this so to speak to European 86 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,320 and rest of the world. So I'm. 87 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,560 I'm excited to have a little bit of staking the flag, so to 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,440 speak. And so 25 years of the business, 89 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,440 I've been very quiet and kind of live under the radar and quite a 90 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,200 bit behind the scenes. It's kind of the way I like to 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,400 be and sort of have this opportunity to really reveal the 92 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,680 stories over the last 25 years and to show the insights and 93 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,280 hopefully transfer of knowledge to another generation is really 94 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,320 what I'm thrilled about. So it's a, it's, I'm really 95 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,040 honoured to have this chance to, to do that. 96 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,440 And the book takes you through 25 or 26 different chapters and 97 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,160 various experiences, and some are quite abstract, some are 98 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,760 very tangible, but it's very different from a typical 99 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,360 monograph. I'm less interested in showing 100 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,160 you what you know, cool things I think I made. 101 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,240 Instead, it's really about the things I've learned, the 102 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,960 insights I've gained, the things that didn't work, Really just a 103 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,000 different take on a monograph. And I'm really excited about it. 104 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,760 Awesome, I'm curious to read it. Yeah. 105 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,040 So we've covered sort of a bit of your origin story and now 106 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,560 your most recent chapter with this upcoming book. 107 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,640 Let's take a moment to explore some of the many hats that 108 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,040 you've that you wear, that you have worn. 109 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,600 So as mentioned by Julia in your intro, you're the founder and 110 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,800 principal at Bracer. You also have a relationship 111 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,160 with Better Lab. So let's learn a little bit more 112 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,000 about those different practices. And yeah, how do you split your 113 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,040 time and stay grounded across these different projects and 114 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,840 organizations that you have working with? 115 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,000 Yeah. So there's a couple of ways to 116 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:08,920 look at it. There's. 117 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,920 So the bracer is the the studio, right. 118 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,400 That's really where the, the service, I guess you could say 119 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,240 where I'm there to serve client asks, client needs. 120 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,320 And, and over these years, it's been great. 121 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,920 But at the same time, these get a bit frustrated because you 122 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,640 don't, you know, I can tell you sustainability is a challenge 123 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,760 still, even for companies. So you're providing a solution 124 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,720 that that, let's say, helps them from a sustainability 125 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,000 perspective, but they're not interested in taking the path 126 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,080 and, and ultimately it's their choice. 127 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,880 So you don't have that much control. 128 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,440 And so you're there to do what you think's right. 129 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,320 And at the end of the day, you're, you're going along for 130 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,040 the ride with that client. And so either you pick the right 131 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,520 client or you make some changes. So you you're in a position of 132 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,080 service. And whereas Better Lab came 133 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,120 about as my initiation or sort of my venture platform. 134 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:06,920 So we've been seeking out what I see are really large issues that 135 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,160 aren't being addressed in the world. 136 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,000 And I've spent a lot of time over the last 20 years, as you 137 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,760 heard from my origin, I'm very interested in the science, space 138 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,280 and science and technology. And I had over the years met 139 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,200 many scientists that are working on wonderful, wonderful ideas. 140 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,600 And a lot of their motivation is to create patents and, and kind 141 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,880 of stop there. And they don't understand how to 142 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,080 move these patents into the world and nor are they motivated 143 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:33,480 to. And the businesses funding it 144 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,080 don't see the opportunity. They don't understand the value 145 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,360 necessarily attached to it. So Better Lab was born from 146 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,520 that, where I believe that a lot of the world's problems actually 147 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,200 are solved and they're just in patent form. 148 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,920 Others, they're stuck in litigation or they're in patent 149 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,400 motor or a whole variety of things. 150 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,640 So I've taken on a handful of projects which we could even 151 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,120 talk about where we are attacking really global problems 152 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,280 at scale, be it eye health, wound care, hand sanitization, 153 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,200 very like large, large sustainability and human health, 154 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,000 human condition issues. And we bring them to the world 155 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,600 ourselves instead of waiting for someone to come to us. 156 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,720 So as a follow up for that, maybe for some of our listeners 157 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,880 who aren't still familiar with IP law and patents and stuff 158 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,360 like that, you're saying like some things get stuck in the 159 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,800 patents or patent Moat was a term that you mentioned offhand. 160 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,480 Could you say a little bit more about that? 161 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,120 Yeah. So here's an example. 162 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:33,400 I we've long, long story, I'll kind of, kind of short is I was 163 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,919 working with a former NASA scientist and he has a patent 164 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:42,200 around mitigating like when when COVID, for example, is really 165 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,480 the subject, right? He had, you can manage this part 166 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,040 of COVID with light. So any kind of pathogen, any 167 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,840 bacterial, it can be controlled with light. 168 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,240 And so a germicide of light. And we've all heard of UVC by 169 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,560 now. And then this is a very specific 170 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:02,240 spectrum of UVC. Anyhow, this gentleman had his 171 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,720 patent sitting in a drawer for 25 years and there's some nuance 172 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,320 to it because patent would have expired, but it's been 173 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,080 maintained in any event. So we've got together because I 174 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,400 saw an opportunity around putting it into a hand wash 175 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,200 product because the issue we have is the hand washes consume 176 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,120 about 2% of the global carbon footprint, which is 177 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,800 unbelievable. So we can replace that. 178 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,640 I can really get into the story of it and I'll spare you, but to 179 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:33,280 get into a little bit is we can replace all that waste of liquid 180 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,920 of, excuse me, of water or of plastic bottles, transportation, 181 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,560 all the stuff associated with, with liquid hand wash or gel 182 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,880 sanitizer and with light. So it became this really hugely 183 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,440 disruptive technology. At the same time, we were 184 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,160 approached by several companies to straight buy this patent 185 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,560 because it's a really good idea. And at the end of the day, the 186 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:55,480 answer is no, because we know they're buying it to basically 187 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,840 sit on it or to kill it or to use it as a way to defend their 188 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,800 other technologies, but not to actually use it for the greater 189 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,560 good. And so a lot of companies 190 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,440 leverage patents to protect core patents or they'll they're they 191 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,040 are hung up in litigation or the worst one of all is you have an 192 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,600 excellent patent, great position, and but you're losing 193 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,960 in the world, you're losing in the market because you have a 194 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,680 lesser quality solution that has a better design. 195 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,160 And so folks, folks will lead to it better and they understand it 196 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:26,800 better. And so that's really what Better 197 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,800 Lab is meant to go, is to help leverage and support these 198 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,360 technologies and get them into the world in a way where they 199 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,120 can really win. Wow, that's, that's incredible. 200 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,360 So you did mention now a little bit of the, the struggles of 201 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,440 having a concept and idea, but also about the execution. 202 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,280 We, I read in the Better Better Lab manifesto, a very powerful 203 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,000 line that I, I'm, I'm going to share with our listeners here. 204 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,720 So it says solutions do not spread on merit alone. 205 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,880 Visionary solutions require visionary execution. 206 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,320 So I wanted to hear a little bit more if you can build on what 207 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,480 you understand is a visionary execution. 208 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,440 So what does it really mean into practice? 209 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,600 A product that is already in the market but the design itself is 210 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,240 has a better design so that even though the the solution itself 211 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:17,880 is not as good as the the patent one. 212 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,560 Can you explain a little bit of the complexity of having good 213 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,360 design but also good execution and and a proper solution for 214 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,560 it? Yeah, I think that's thanks for 215 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,440 for, for highlighting that line because it's really important. 216 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,000 And in fact, I even, I do quite a bit of writing and you'll see 217 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,680 on my website, I have a kind of a blog called field Notes. 218 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:42,680 And one of the field notes was it's called on vision. 219 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,800 And I often think about what does it mean to be a visionary 220 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,680 and to have vision for a company and like really how, why is this 221 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,160 important? What does it even mean? 222 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,600 This was Steve Jobs a visionary? I, I think so. 223 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,360 And then then how, how come I'm not or she's not or he's not 224 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,360 like, how do we know? How do you become a visionary? 225 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,160 Like all these sort of questions, right? 226 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,200 And, and sort of writing helps me sort of distill the thinking 227 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,760 and I'm not saying it's the perfect answer, but helps me 228 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,520 think through it. It's sort of like meditating on 229 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,600 the subject. And, and so when I think about 230 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,560 these technologies, for example, I've seen the they're incredibly 231 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:19,520 interesting and, and they're potentially like world 232 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,320 transforming to some of these technologies. 233 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,480 And but you can't, you know, no offense. 234 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,520 I don't think hire a guy down the street, so to speak, to kind 235 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,080 of just wrap it in a product design and you're all done. 236 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,400 Like, I think there tends to be a level of thinking that needs 237 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,840 to happen in consideration and design tends to be a little bit 238 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,440 further down in the order of priority in terms of doing 239 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,760 things. Design tends to be yeah, like 240 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,160 just make it look good or choose the right colours and, and 241 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,680 engineering will always be in front of design and then the 242 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,800 science in front of engineering. So there's some logic to it. 243 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,560 But I have really advocating for design to be really in the room 244 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,320 with the scientists because I think that's really where a lot 245 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,360 can be very much transformed. And when I think about Vision 246 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,080 and not so much as an answer to question or your comment, but 247 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,320 it's more of I think it's someone that could really see 248 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,840 what's right in front of us. And that's really hard to do, 249 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,640 like really see it. And I think, I don't think 250 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,480 Vision, I think, I think folks tend to think Vision is some 251 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,720 kind of daredevil mentality or some like ability to see 252 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,160 something that no one of us would ever see because they have 253 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:25,600 such experience or some know how. 254 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,560 And I think a lot of it acts actually, it's the, it's the 255 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,200 kind of being so brave to see something that's so simple and 256 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,640 then the wherewithal to carry it through. 257 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,200 And I think pulling, putting those two together is really 258 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,400 challenging in the environment that we're in. 259 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,800 Folks are always looking for immediate return or they want to 260 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,240 really understand things at a level that you can't necessarily 261 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,000 quantify. Like there's a lot there that 262 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,120 has to really be worked through. So I think a visionary is 263 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,160 someone that is able to connect those dots, communicate those 264 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,800 dots, even if they don't look to be revolutionary at first sight. 265 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,880 Yeah, awesome. And as a provocation to our 266 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,320 listeners, do you have it some type of advice that you can 267 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,480 share with them for them to rethink the way they execute 268 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,240 their ideas? I'm really not thinking only 269 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,640 about the powerful ideas, but how are they actually going to 270 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,680 go to to market to actually create real lasting change. 271 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,800 I, I love this question. So there's another book from 272 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,160 last year that I wrote. It's sort of my playbook and 273 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,920 I've, I guess I'm feel like I'm at, I'm just over 50 and I feel 274 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,200 like I'm trying to transfer knowledge. 275 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:37,000 But at the end, I'm not as old as I'm sounding, but I, I wrote 276 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,320 Designing Context and it is a framework for creating strategic 277 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,000 differentiation. So it's basically the playbook 278 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,920 for how I believe companies could actually do exactly what 279 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,600 you just said. It's how I've been operating for 280 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,160 25 years. And what it is, is so for 281 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,920 example, if I take you to the park and I say, look, let's look 282 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,640 at this tree here. Do you see this tree? 283 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,640 And I don't think you would tell me about this tree. 284 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,120 I don't think you would say, oh, it's too large. 285 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,480 It has too many leaves. It's not the right color green. 286 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,480 I mean, you could, you could, but I don't think folks think 287 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,320 that way. I think you see the tree and you 288 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,080 just accept it. It's it's in this environment, 289 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,120 it's dealing with this rainfall or not. 290 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,600 It's in this climate. It has its invasive species. 291 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,520 You'd have a whole list of reasons why the tree looks the 292 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,360 way it does. It's not an opinion. 293 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,400 It's absolutely a result of an ecosystem. 294 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,440 It is a result of a context. So my proposition in the book is 295 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,320 all about you. The role of the designer is to 296 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,000 truly design the context and it's not actually to design the 297 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,320 tree. And I think that's the sort of 298 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,040 mistake a lot of folks run into start designing the thing 299 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,560 without knowing all of the other governors were actually affect 300 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,160 the thing. So I think to be successful, I 301 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,440 think in this back to your your initial question, it's really 302 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,200 understanding all of the governors that are there that 303 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,760 ultimately will drive the output. 304 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,360 And when you truly understand them all could be from finance, 305 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,480 could be legal, could be supply chain constraints, human needs, 306 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,400 could be competition, all you live, you put it all together. 307 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,600 It's really looking for that mathematical answer, I guess you 308 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,880 could say that actually gives you, gives you really what is 309 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,000 design and context. So what I'm hearing is that 310 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,680 basically folks don't pay so much attention to the system 311 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,480 where their product or their innovation is being placed, 312 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,800 right? And that's your color, the 313 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,240 highlighting, the importance to look at the context and the 314 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,280 systems that are behind it. Because I don't think anyone 315 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,600 cares what, what Todd thinks, you know, I think it's what it's 316 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,000 best for the world, what's best for the market, what's best for 317 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,160 the situation, the business, all these other things. 318 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,720 And if you can have an answer for that, then that's your 319 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,920 answer. Like, so you're not in the room 320 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,840 of saying, I think blue is better than red because it 321 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,040 doesn't matter. It's one color because it needs 322 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,600 to be or what they needs to be this color. 323 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,600 The tree needs to be green, right? 324 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,720 The leaf. So that that's, that's kind of 325 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,200 the logic as I'm trying to remove emotion and and sort of 326 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,040 ego from all this and actually let it be fact. 327 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:04,839 Yeah, I love that. Yeah, thanks. 328 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,800 Thanks for the the example of the tree. 329 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,599 I think it's a great metaphor to understand the systems. 330 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,720 Moving to another, another question here. 331 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,000 We've no, we, we've learned that you've worked across multiple 332 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,440 countries in Europe, but also in Japan. 333 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,079 And we also know that sustainability is a clear core 334 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,680 principle of your your practice. What have you learnt from these 335 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,320 different ways these cultures approach business, but also 336 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,920 community and space? Making what? 337 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,120 What part of these values that you've learnt from them that you 338 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,720 carry with you to these new projects that you're creating 339 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,200 from now on? There's so there's so much 340 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,120 there. I mean, I could take Europe as 341 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,280 sort of the snapshot and it's the easiest one for me to share, 342 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,480 I think. So I moved there when I was 24 343 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,320 years old, I think. And I spent a decade in Europe. 344 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,880 I live from Denmark, Italy, France and UK. 345 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,120 And, and it's interesting because as a designer, young 346 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,800 designer, I didn't yet understand or have a identity as 347 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,120 a designer. I don't really know. 348 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:19,120 And I sort of start adopting where you are and I sort of took 349 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,960 away and I still have it today, which I am thankful for, is in 350 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,160 Denmark, I really saw an honesty in design. 351 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,240 Like material was just natural. There was no painting of wood, 352 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:30,520 you know, things like we do here. 353 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,560 And they treated things very natural. 354 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,720 Was very much about the daylight and how that it looks like 355 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,560 colors affected by daylight and all this. 356 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,040 And then moved to Milan and it was all about poetry and, and 357 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,080 like that was a story behind everything and which is perfect. 358 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,760 It was not the same in Denmark. In France it was much more about 359 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,440 the elegance of things. Things were trying to be 360 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:52,840 elegant, which is quite interesting. 361 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,600 I think it's kind of a cultural condition. 362 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,480 And then in the UKI left with individuality. 363 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,880 I was working with Tom Dixon. I got to meet a lot of these 364 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,480 sort of celebrity designers and you saw it's very much about the 365 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,680 personality or the individuality of the design and who is it. 366 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,120 And not just, you know, it's less the story, less about the 367 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,480 honesty, more about the personality. 368 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,720 And then I return to the US and hits me over the head and it's, 369 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,640 it's really about business. And it's not that, that that's a 370 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,840 bad thing, right? And I know I kind of feel like 371 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,440 design always sort of goes, Oh no, when you talk business, but 372 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,960 it's another lever in the, you know, in design. 373 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,200 And I think it's super fun and interesting. 374 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,360 And so when you start to put all these together, I think that's 375 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,160 ultimately the experience I've gained over that period of time. 376 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,680 And I enjoy still picking from it as I still work today. 377 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,200 Yeah, I love this summary of each country. 378 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,120 That's great. Yeah. 379 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,520 Very inspiring. Yeah. 380 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,080 So building on that, you know, you have just so many 381 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,840 experiences. We've talked a little bit about 382 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,520 your work in the health space as well as some of your thoughts on 383 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,160 sustainability and different design cultures. 384 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400 I wanted to pivot now to talk about ergonomics. 385 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,760 So you were featured in Archaetonic a couple years ago 386 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,160 in a piece about Office. Furniture and ergonomics there 387 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,400 and I'll just quote you back to you for our listeners, but 388 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,680 basically quote you say historically ergonomics was more 389 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,400 about human factors. Can you reach, does it fit and 390 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,240 the interface with the human experience? 391 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,160 But now we realize its impact on long term health. 392 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,560 We see ergonomics as a Wellness tool. 393 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,520 And so this was in context, in the context of your 394 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,440 collaboration with human scale office furniture experts. 395 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,240 So can you tell us a little bit more about you know what, what 396 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,320 you mean by that and some of your work in that ergonomics as 397 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,200 Wellness space? I'm so happy you read that back 398 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,280 because I studied in the early 90s, as I mentioned. 399 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,840 And human factors, if anyone is old enough to remember, was this 400 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,320 Henry Dreyfus book that showed was called The Measure of Man, 401 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,440 which doesn't age very well. And the idea that a human is 402 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,960 this tall, it's this wide. There's to be fair of a female, 403 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,720 a male. And it's very basic, but it's 404 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,800 very basic in terms of human understanding, but very detailed 405 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,720 in terms of the Physiology or in like how long is a femur and 406 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,600 like how, what is the eye level and all these sort of very 407 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,920 critical data points because it didn't exist before. 408 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,640 So made perfect sense. And by the way, this book was Co 409 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,320 created, I guess you could say by Neil's different. 410 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,040 And Neil's different is also one of the origins of human scale, 411 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,120 which we could talk about South and human scale being this 412 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,160 amazing ergonomics company based out of here in, in New York and 413 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,640 who I've been working with now since almost 20 years. 414 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,880 And so I, through my studies, I learned about this human factors 415 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,800 and then I get to practice it from the company that's really 416 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,120 sort of founded it in a way through Neil's. 417 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,800 And now that coupled with our learning from science and 418 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,760 technology over the years, you start to discover that, you 419 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,760 know, sitting, as they say, is the is as bad as smoking and 420 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,680 like sitting still. So we're just static. 421 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,160 There's no blood flow, blood pools in your feet. 422 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,960 And we were doing that day after day for years and years, decades 423 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,640 and decades. So like now the data's in and we 424 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,400 know the bad news it has for people on long term health not, 425 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,080 and not just, I mean, we could get into it, but there's also 426 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,200 obstacle ergonomics, there's acoustic ergonomics. 427 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,200 Like we start to realize, oh wow, there's a lot more fidelity 428 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,400 to this concept of ergonomics than originally considered. 429 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,040 And I think that's what's super exciting. 430 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,600 And I don't think our industry has even realized it yet. 431 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,200 So I think we're about to enter. I think the golden era of of 432 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,720 ergonomics is still in front of us. 433 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,160 Yeah, well, before we we look at maybe the golden era to come, 434 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,640 because you mentioned you've worked with human scale for 20 435 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,600 years now. Like how have you seen this 436 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,280 stuff evolve? I mean, just kind of through my 437 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,640 experience, you know, I remember the the open plan office craze 438 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,320 with things and like, you know, different kinds of, you know, 439 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,960 acoustic treatments or lack thereof, or, you know, now more 440 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,760 attention. Like when I hear ergonomics, I 441 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,200 think about like, you know, office chairs and and things 442 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:12,920 like that. But yeah. 443 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,240 How have you seen this evolve over the 20 years that you've 444 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,360 worked with Human Scale, and where do you see this going? 445 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,720 Yeah, so I mean, human scale is a great example of this. 446 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,360 And so if you, you know, go, go back in time and all the test 447 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,280 years we've all ever known, if you reach underneath them, 448 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,160 they'll have knobs, levers, dials, all this stuff. 449 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,760 And, and it sounds great because it's not like, cool, I could 450 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,960 adjust the chair to my need and we're good, which isn't really 451 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,600 true. So most chair designers, most 452 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,440 designers period, But most chair designers, you take the, you 453 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,520 take the average human being and you divide it by, you know, half 454 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,000 so that you say, OK, we're going to make sure it's going to fit 455 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,920 half of the population. So measure everyone's width, 456 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,200 femur, length, torso, the weight, male, female, roll it 457 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,440 onto 1 and we give us a new human being, which is the 50 458 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,440 percentile human being. We'll call it like the average 459 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,120 human. And OK, design A chair for them. 460 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,120 And then we give you the ability to adjust it. 461 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,280 So you can now move some things on the chair with these 462 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,800 controls. So it's a couple of problems. 1 463 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,560 is there's no such thing as this person. 464 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,720 They don't exist, which is kind of interesting. 99% invisible to 465 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,080 the really nice podcast around this. 466 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,880 There's no person that matches what we're all designing for. 467 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,080 So which is kind of interesting. Therefore, you have all these 468 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,920 controls to therefore correct a bad design in the 1st place. 469 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,880 So you're allowing folks to then fix things. 470 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,960 The problem there is most people don't know to adjust it #2 they 471 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,800 don't adjust it or they don't adjust it well. 472 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,240 And I sat in Herman Miller chair for many years and I didn't know 473 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,720 how to adjust it, never thought about it. 474 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,840 And I designed chairs and maybe it's just me, which is possible. 475 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,320 And, and I noticed I would end up sitting forward and most 476 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,760 everyone that is not sitting in a chair made for them or 477 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,920 adjusted for them ends up sitting forward. 478 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,400 And therefore they're in now this sort of jockey position and 479 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,080 they're in this unhealthy posture and now they're sitting 480 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,280 this way. And that's how it goes. 481 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,560 Human scale has done it totally differently. 482 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,160 They Neil's different invented this technology, which is now we 483 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,280 call gravity mechanism. It's the future of chairs and 484 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,640 it's been from here since human scale where there is no spring, 485 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,800 there is no lock, there is no lever, there is no dial and what 486 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,560 it is is he's managed to figure out a way to use the human body 487 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,480 weight, the sitter itself to be the mechanism. 488 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,600 So as you sit in the chair, instantly the chair adapts to 489 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,080 you and done. So there's nothing to do and 490 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,800 therefore you, it's not just that it's adapted to you, it 491 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,120 stays adapted to you. So as you move throughout the 492 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:52,800 day, it's constantly staying adapted to you. 493 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,760 And then if you trade chairs with your colleague, your 494 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,040 partner or someone else, you're sitting by the way, in a 495 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,160 different chair every day. Now in the workplace, if you 496 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600 haven't noticed, every time you sit in the next chair, it's 497 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,600 instantly adapted to you. So yourself. 498 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,440 So you're sitting these years and decades in a chair, then 499 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,440 adjusted for you as you go to use it. 500 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,680 And that's really, I think where ergonomics is eventually going. 501 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,120 Human skills are there. A lot of companies are starting 502 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:19,160 to realize, you know, we can't just give, you know, the world, 503 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,120 here's a box of tools. Can you adjust your equipment so 504 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:23,680 that you could stay healthy? Human scale. 505 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,040 Just make sure that it's transparent to the user. 506 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,280 And I think that's really what's what's incredible. 507 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,360 Yeah, that sounds great. It's like, oh, now I'm gonna 508 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,280 check out one of these chairs that sounds amazing as I'm 509 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,440 trying to like not squeak in this cheap office chair that I 510 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,560 bought online for my Home Office. 511 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,440 But. Once you do it, though, you 512 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,640 can't go back. That's what's interesting. 513 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,360 You realize, oh, I've these chairs are wrong. 514 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,880 It's like all the other chair. And it sounds silly how you 515 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,000 don't realize how important the chair actually is until you've 516 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,520 until you sit in the right one. As a follow up to that, you said 517 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,720 before about you mentioned before talking about like the 518 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,840 larger system that a design exists in. 519 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,760 So channeling that sorry nen quote about the chair and the 520 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,160 table and the table in the room kind of thing like you had 521 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,400 mentioned a little bit of about also like hot desking, right? 522 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,440 This trend where people may not have a permanent office now they 523 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,000 they might go to different places. 524 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,200 And we see certainly these trends with the return to office 525 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,400 stuff of decorating offices more like cafes or living rooms or Co 526 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,280 working spaces and and things like that. 527 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,480 So where do you see that or how do you interpret that as a 528 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,160 designer in your work? Yeah, and that's right. 529 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,880 I think the space has evolved dramatically. 530 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,480 It's more and more hospitality oriented, rightfully so. 531 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,800 I don't think anybody wants to work in an old fashioned cubicle 532 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,600 anymore. I mean, I do think closed plan 533 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,280 is not off the table. I think it it, it makes sense as 534 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,240 well. But I don't think it'll be in 535 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,240 the old style that it was, which was oppressive and and limiting 536 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,160 limits your lines of sight so I can limited light. 537 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,240 It had a lot of downsides. Action Office made a lot of 538 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,440 sense. Technology's changed. 539 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,280 We have laptops now, iPads, iPhones. 540 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,200 So like, it's cool. Things just evolved. 541 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,680 I remember during COVID, I was sort of walking around with my 542 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,920 kids were in the park and I sort of, oh man, what are we going to 543 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,440 do when people are going to go back to work? 544 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,240 How's this going to work? And I was just really thinking 545 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,920 about this like, boy, this is, this is quite a shift, you know, 546 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,640 and, and as a designer, it's my sort of role here to kind of 547 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,360 figure this out, right? And then I realized it doesn't 548 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:32,400 really matter what I think. I think the market just decides 549 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,080 these things. I think the market just makes it 550 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,880 the demand and they vote with their dollars. 551 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,360 And I think ultimately what things will settle to be or as 552 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,640 they continue to evolve, it'll happen organically. 553 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,480 I think a few courageous, maybe visionary folks will put some 554 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,280 ideas out there to kind of trigger some race response to 555 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,920 see if there's life there. But but I don't think I don't 556 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,480 think the majors or these big companies are going to come out 557 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,560 with like I think action office was so revolutionary actually. 558 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,600 And I don't know how many years away we are. 559 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,560 If it's another 50 before we're going to see a new action 560 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,120 Office. I don't, I think what's missing 561 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,160 from. So if I take a half a step back, 562 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,120 I work with a lot of companies too. 563 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,920 They ask like, so you know, I'm a furniture company. 564 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,400 I should buy a company. What should I buy another 565 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,200 furniture company? But maybe they we make lounge 566 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400 chairs, they make sofas. Maybe we should, you know, come 567 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,800 together. And I'm always like, you guys 568 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:28,880 are all thinking about this wrong. 569 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,040 Like if you're going to buy anything, buy a technology 570 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,280 company because like, I think what's happening is a lot of 571 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,640 these companies are so good at cutting, you know, plywood and 572 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,160 bending tubes, but they know nothing about how to put power 573 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560 or technology into things. So I think what's coming in the 574 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:50,080 next 25 years, I hopefully sooner is the likes of Google or 575 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,080 the likes of, I don't know, open eye or someone is going to be 576 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,560 creating workplace that we, that you're suddenly the old 577 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,600 furniture companies won't understand how to compete 578 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,920 against. And so I think that's where it's 579 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,640 going to happen. So I feel like I'm jumping 580 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,440 around a little bit, but I do think as the workplace evolves, 581 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,680 I think we're going to find a new animal because how many 582 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,880 different shaped chairs are we going to keep entertaining for 583 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,280 the next, you know, 50 years before we really need actually 584 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,920 need a shift to, to match our contemporary life that we're 585 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,240 dealing with. Totally. 586 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,280 Yeah. I think that's a great point 587 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,760 about like it could be an outsider like a tech company 588 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,640 coming in and revolutionizing the way that we furnish our 589 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,880 offices. Right, right. 590 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,680 And, and like, what is even an office, right? 591 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,560 Like, so it becomes, everything's becoming so 592 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,880 fragmented. And I know there's a, you know, 593 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,360 fear attached to it, which I, I could appreciate, but at the 594 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,720 same time it's sort of amazing. It's like this complete 595 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,120 transformation and my kids will be doing things that none of us 596 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,760 could dream of. You know, who knows where 597 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,440 they'll be working and like, isn't that great? 598 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,120 Like, and so I think I'm not a, I'm kind of a bit anarchist in 599 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,440 that way where I'm like, let let everything kind of fall apart 600 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,240 because we need to see what's on the other side of this. 601 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,720 We can't hold on to the past forever. 602 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,840 Yeah, I love that. Now, Todd, shifting a little bit 603 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,440 the direction, we know that you've worked with many types of 604 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,040 industries and services, so and many of them you care a lot 605 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,720 about. So if you could choose one type 606 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,600 of industry or even like a product or service for you to 607 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,480 redesign from scratch, what do you think it would be and why 608 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800 would what would you change from it? 609 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:44,840 Oh, wow, There's probably a lot education, how education is 610 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,360 happening in the United States. I mean, as a whole this, I would 611 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,480 say government education, I would say healthcare. 612 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,160 Like there's like the basics, you know, I feel like the most 613 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,040 complicated things in the world, but I feel like some of these 614 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,800 systems are so complicated to people and to me. 615 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,360 I don't understand it. I feel like they're built not 616 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,040 from the outcomes. I was watching, you know, the 617 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,000 Olympics, of course, just finished and I've read an 618 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,320 article today around how why the Norwegians are so good at this. 619 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,760 Of course they're a win. It was Winter Olympics winter 620 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,840 event of K. There's some correlation there, 621 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:23,240 but also their mandate kids to participate in sport and, and 622 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,480 but the mandate is very flexible that it's it's actually it's 623 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,960 sort of official and everyone, all parents and kids have to 624 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,640 take kind of course. I know I'm kind of exaggerating 625 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,360 this probably, but was my understanding. 626 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,440 And the course made it clear that the parent and the child 627 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,440 has equal rights and what to pick. 628 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,560 So it's not like the American parent tends to be like, you're 629 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,640 going to do this and the kid hates it and they're forced 630 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,160 through it and all this. But the idea was to foster joy 631 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,240 in sport and, and then they have to, I think, cycle through many 632 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,440 different sports. Like there's a whole structure 633 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 they have around it. And the outcome is not to win 634 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,720 gold in the Olympics. The outcome is to live a, a, a 635 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,360 lifestyle that's healthy and outdoors. 636 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,160 And, and I go, thank you. Like they're building it from 637 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,520 the ground up, a way to see a complex system and in a, in a 638 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,560 way that's quite tangible in, in, in like 1/2 a page article, 639 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,760 like you understand the whole thing And I go, why is it so 640 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,640 complicated here? And I mean for lots of answers 641 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,120 to that. But so I'd love to look at can 642 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,120 more complex systems and see, can't these be simpler here and, 643 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,320 and align, align incentives. That actually makes sense for 644 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,040 people, not just for the people to get wealthy. 645 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,160 Yeah, I love that. That's a great example about how 646 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,480 to change the decision making process of kids to actually 647 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,760 build a new and healthier relationship with sports, right. 648 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,720 How they move their bodies and how this becomes part of their 649 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,440 routine as they grow up. I love that. 650 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:56,720 Yeah, Very, very needed indeed. Todd, I saw that you wrote an an 651 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,200 article called The Evolution of the de Evolution, Evolution of a 652 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,280 business, where you talk about how legacy brands must evolve 653 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,520 with cultural, technological and customer expectations without 654 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,600 losing their own identity. So you bring the argument that 655 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,080 the real evolution is continuous and that heritage must must be 656 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,080 translated into forms that make sense for the specific presence 657 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,840 of the moment that we're leaving it in the context of AI. 658 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,920 So you brought, you know, how you recommend you suggest to 659 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,320 some of your clients to invest in technology, technological 660 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,679 products in the context of AI. How do you see these clients 661 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:42,040 navigating this shift in a way that keeps them distinctive and 662 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,960 not just becoming another AI generated campaign or idea or 663 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,120 product and so on? Yeah, I think it's a great 664 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,239 question. And the gist of that article and 665 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,480 how it relates to AI. So we meet a lot of companies 666 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,000 that are dealing with their legacy and yeah, there might be 667 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,040 a 50 year old brand. Some cases I had them on over 668 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,360 100 year old company and they're like how do we contemporize but 669 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,720 not sort of lose our heritage, You know, this balance. 670 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,360 This was George Jensen's challenge in Denmark. 671 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,480 Fritz Hansen had the similar challenge, 50 plus year old 672 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,440 business. And so the thing that's 673 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,280 interesting about it is it tends to not be the product. 674 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,920 Sometimes it is, but it tends to not be. 675 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,160 And what you're competing against are companies that you 676 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,560 that they don't even know about you. 677 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:35,760 So in other words, you're like, you're the consumer has how many 678 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,440 hours in a day, right? And they have X dollars that are 679 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,040 allocated to not not stay with them forever, right? 680 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,880 And they have certain needs in their day and your goal is to 681 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,360 probably park into one of those needs and to fulfil that need. 682 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,840 And you're now competing obviously against other folks 683 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,840 that feel that similar need. But the challenge you have is 684 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,480 that same consumer, let's say uses Airbnb, has a good 685 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,200 interface, it's fast, it's transparent, you know, let's say 686 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,400 all that good stuff. Then they use Shopify or, or 687 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,280 let's take music, they use, let's say Spotify and, and 688 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,600 Spotify works great. It reads their mind for the next 689 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,760 song they want to play like it's so it's so they're starting to 690 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,960 see like a pattern of expectation for contemporary 691 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,200 consuming, we'll call it. And then they go to your 692 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,040 furniture company or your company and you have this legacy 693 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,400 product, but you may be still selling in a legacy way. 694 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,200 And then that's where you lose them. 695 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,600 You're competing against, not necessarily product by product. 696 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,080 You're competing against mostly the experience and how to meet 697 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,480 your your market. And so if you sure that up, 698 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,800 you're already probably more than better suited than most of 699 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,600 your actual competitors. And so that's sort of how I look 700 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,080 at it and how to address it. So it's really in, in my mind 701 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,280 before we get to AII think it's about really understanding, 702 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,720 therefore, what is your market actually? 703 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,560 What are their other aspects of their life that they're shopping 704 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,440 in and and consuming experiencing? 705 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,240 And then how do you stay in front of that and actually meet 706 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,320 them there? So I think that's really 707 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,320 critical. What I mean by the, the 708 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,880 evolution of the business is standing still in a way and you 709 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,200 still have this great legacy solution, but it's sort of dying 710 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,960 because folks don't understand it anymore because of the way 711 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,880 you're getting to them. So that's sort of 1 aspect when 712 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,960 it comes to AII don't have enough knowledge about AI other 713 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,840 than I see it as such an incredibly valuable tool for 714 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,280 like speed, like helping everyone move faster and like 715 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,720 execute test. So in terms of I, I not, have 716 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,240 not seen anyone yet at least I'm not in the physical space use AI 717 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,880 yet to do anything that's really transformed some it's just made 718 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,040 them faster, if that makes sense. 719 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,040 So it hasn't really made any decisions that have changed 720 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,720 course of a business yet that I've seen nothing hasn't 721 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,560 happened or nor has it definitely not has not generated 722 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,520 any type of output of such as a product but not the physical 723 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,640 space not yet I'm aware of. But so I don't see it yet as an 724 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,800 issue. But I do see it in terms of 725 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,680 copywriting. I do see an issue in terms of 726 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,640 image creation, video creation. So it's sort of in the marketing 727 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,640 side of things and there's just an overwhelming amount of noise. 728 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,360 Of course, it's being generated. So I think that's a headwind for 729 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,040 a lot of companies is how do you compete? 730 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,920 And my advice is that it always is personal life as well as 731 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,800 professional is just be as authentic as as you absolutely 732 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,400 can be. And the rest you just have to, 733 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,240 you know, hope for the best, because I think the moment 734 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:36,840 you're, you know, forcing and trying to, you know, just like 735 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,240 write 500 blog blog articles a day for SEOI think it's just, it 736 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:43,560 just reads is inauthentic. And I think folks are sensitive 737 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,760 to it and they're they're looking for inauthenticity right 738 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,720 now. That's great. 739 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,280 And yeah, I agree. We can tell when something's 740 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,240 very connected to their identity. 741 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,960 So when the the brand is speaking their own language, I 742 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,520 guess, you know, the product is able to actually connect with 743 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,040 their their consumers in a way that is authentic. 744 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,400 I agree with you. So Todd, we're starting to wrap 745 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,560 up our time together. We like to ask our guests A2 746 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,720 part closing question. So 1 is about advice and the 747 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,360 other one is a recommendation of what is inspiring you. 748 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,120 So I'll just set up the two parter and you can answer in 749 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,920 whichever order you'd like. But do you have any advice that 750 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,320 you would give to students, design students, emerging 751 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,120 designers earlier in their career? 752 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,960 And then the second one is just like, what is something that's 753 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,960 inspiring you right now? Could be a book, a film, an 754 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,200 exhibition, anything that you would like to recommend. 755 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,280 Creative inspiration to recommend to our listeners. 756 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,920 Yeah, there's a lot there advice I have. 757 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,560 I feel like I have so much advice. 758 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,440 I feel bad because it's you feel like advice shouldn't I don't 759 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,360 know my even my, my kids, they're 10 or now 1111 and 10. 760 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,840 They're like, it's OK. We want to find some things out 761 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,000 in the world, Dad, like we don't want all this advice all the 762 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,240 time. So I kind of feel like a little 763 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:02,280 bad to offer advice when folks like I'm not asking for it. 764 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,800 So but the one thing that, you know, I think is challenging in 765 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,360 design, but I think is such a critically important thing is, 766 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,040 is really experiencing through design. 767 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,320 Design took me around the world. You know, 1,000,000 countries, 768 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,280 1,000,000 experiences, 1,000,000 people and, and I don't know how 769 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,200 easy it is anymore. Everything's happening now 770 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,080 virtually as we are. Things are all digital. 771 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,840 So like you're not flying all over the planet, meeting 772 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:30,840 everyone, really getting involved. 773 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,360 Some of us still are, but it's not as easy as it was. 774 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,400 Weirdly enough, I feel like the world's gotten kind of bigger 775 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,560 again as opposed to smaller, not in a good way, like not a 776 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,360 closer. So what advice for me would be 777 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,000 get on the plane, go to the factories, go meet the people, 778 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,920 go spend time. And because at the end of the 779 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,200 day, that's like what a rich life you've had and and don't 780 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,920 worry about the design stuff like the, you know, the, the 781 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,680 dinner you had at the restaurant across the street will be what 782 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,200 you remember, even if you're the project didn't work out, you 783 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,600 know, so it's to me, that's the most beautiful part of design is 784 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,720 the journey, right? And then when it comes to 785 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:12,920 inspiring me, so there's a lot here, I guess most recently, 786 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,120 yeah, there's a lot here. Most recently I was in Japan 787 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:23,520 November. And it's like, if you've been, 788 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,920 I'm sure you guys have been hopefully. 789 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,880 And there's so much consideration and intention 790 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,400 everywhere I've been now, I don't know, not a million times, 791 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,040 maybe 6 times or so. And but for some reason, it hit 792 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,480 me differently this time. And there's so much intention 793 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:47,160 and for example, in the theater, it's so thoughtful, I don't know 794 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,480 how to put into words. I left the theaters and the what 795 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,760 I saw with a really like another level of, of understanding of 796 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,800 what like masterworks are. And and I don't see master work 797 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,920 often, like anywhere. Yeah. 798 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,000 And I think to see it as part of a culture available, it's really 799 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,240 what's. Yeah. 800 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:12,720 It kind of made me kind of again, sort of stand up straight 801 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:16,240 and go, I need to still pursue my craft further. 802 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,760 Like there's still, we all have to still work harder, you know, 803 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,480 and I and I, so it was a really wonderful, inspiring moment to 804 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,200 say, wow, this is what a gift to experience some things that I 805 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,320 saw there. And I and I think we all need to 806 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,080 really consider the intention and really bring everything we 807 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,640 can to what we do. Awesome. 808 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:37,240 Thank you so much for sharing that, Todd. 809 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:40,560 I just piggyback off of that since I lived in Japan for a few 810 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,040 years in my 20s and it was. And like that connects to your 811 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,560 advice thing as well of just getting out there. 812 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,240 Like now I, you know, work from home and live in a small city. 813 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:52,360 But like I think it was really valuable in my 20s and 30s to 814 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,920 like travel a lot and live in a big city and and do those sort 815 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,160 of things. But yeah, definitely I resonate 816 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,040 a lot with that, just the sense of like care and attention and 817 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,880 attention to detail and craft in Japan. 818 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,240 And I know it's kind of blown up on the the tourist circuit these 819 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,200 days that I suggest people like get out of the like 2 big cities 820 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,000 that everyone goes to or like even go to the like the 821 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,360 far-flung neighborhoods if you're in Tokyo and like, you 822 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,640 know, go off piste if you will. And you'll find a lot. 823 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,360 It's yeah. Beautiful. 824 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,680 Well, thank you so much again, Todd Bridger, for joining us for 825 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,600 this podcast. We'll see you, you the listeners 826 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,320 in another episode. And so please subscribe and rate 827 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,480 US. You can watch us on YouTube or 828 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,480 wherever you get podcasts. See you then. 829 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:42,040 Bye.