So, the opening scene of our Anthem film is a young black boy
saying, what if the world could see me the way I see me?
And that's that's what this is about.
We all just want to be seen for who we are.
Welcome to aig's design adjacent in this podcast.
We explore topics and areas that intersect with design to explore
the shifts in how we interact with each other and the world
around us join aiga as executive director nef Johnson in
conversation with industry leaders who are innovating and
designing the future. Hello, and welcome to design
adjacent this show that talks about the Nexus of design both
today. And tomorrow, I'm your host,
Vinnie Johnson. Today, we're going to talk about
strategy in particular design strategy, marketing strategy.
Our Guest today is none other than a b Alan founder of neon
butterfly a bit about a be as long as a bee can remember.
She's been With people and why they do it.
They do, you know, always aware of those around her and apparent
differences in choice, if they're made.
She's for ever been outside of the boxes in an uncomfortable
place. At first, the one she's come to
realize has allowed her to connect in depth with the depth
and richness of The Human Condition and take in an array
of perspectives from the world around her.
It's in that vein that she was drawn into the world of
communications. And she has worked in
advertising and marketing for the last 15 years.
With some of the largest Brands and agencies across the country.
But it's a long this way that she grew tired of the
inefficient and ineffective one-size-fits-all approach.
That is so often use an agency's, she noticed that in
small business startups and entrepreneurs lack the access to
the same caliber of resources, if he's bigger Brands.
And it's with that that she started neon butterfly to offer
more to people in a better way. It's connections that unexpected
and surprising that have really driven a be in neon butterfly
from almost a decade of formal study in Tibet and booze isn't
and yoga to prioritizing the art of creating business and
livelihood in supporting a quality of life.
Peace of mind in a better world. So for Abby, it's not just about
turning a profit without regard for anything else, but she
infuses in her work, This wisdom and intention.
It's kind of the Nexus of humanity skill rigor in life,
that every brings together. So, I'd like to thank Evie for
joining us on this episode of Designing, a jacent.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
It's it's really great. You have an amazing background
adding Rick. We were talking a bit about
earlier. Tell us all a bit about your
journey. Yeah, and I will say it's 20
years doing this. Hey, Joe right out of school.
So I went to I'm Leah like you, I asked yes she has.
I was born and raised in Manhattan and all the guy don't
want to. It's almost it's a little sad,
but I was like, I don't want to go to a school with a frat seen
cuz I really honestly Want to deal with like the racism that
often happens. And so I was like, let me just
stay stay in New York like what's better than here?
So I studied history, and then Saatchi & Saatchi came to
recruit and they were like, are you interested in people and why
they do it? They do.
You should try advertising. And I was like, yes, yes, how do
advertising, you know? So then that's how it all
started and I almost immediately was like, I'm gonna learn how to
To use media and marketing to do good.
Right? Honestly, I didn't know how that
was going to manifest over the years, but I was like, I'm going
to start my journey in the big Ad Agency World, working on
serious OG marketing Brands, like, PNG brand, like, learn
from the best and then see where that takes me and how I can use
that to make the world a better place, quite frankly, right?
So interesting. The had that training at P&G, we
talked about so that modern concept of bran is invented
Piaget And kind of have that training is shaped a generation
of marketers. But today, we're at this
incredible Pivot Point, right? Yes.
So, it's like, what have you taken from that kind of
classical traditional training, and marketing and brand to apply
to our new world today? Yeah.
So I think I always say like, from discipline comes Freedom,
right? And, you know, there's so many
like it's almost like kids today are just everyone, you know,
thinks, like I'm just going to be a Founder.
I'm just going to start a business and they have no idea
what that really means or like the solid foundation, you know.
And a lot of people will, you know, kind of get frustrated
with p and he's rigor and the processes.
But like when you learn those things, like how to evaluate
advertising, how to think about, right?
Your audience, how to, how to identify white space, in the
marketplace, then then design and all the creative B.
All the bells, and whistles calm from that.
I always say like if you don't start with strategy, you very
often like fail. You know, I mean, sure you have
some unicorns but like you know it's the png's of the world that
really teach you like. Okay.
What is the business goal that we're trying to achieve, right?
Let's start there, develop a strategy, then figure out the
best way to achieve the business goal and then make it look
pretty right? And to your point, you know, we
often hear the word strategy and it gets thrown around without
any of that kind of core understanding that strategy
really becomes your life blood as an organization, as a brand,
whether you're a billion-dollar brand or your two of us in
Manhattan. Start now.
Right? Right.
Its strategy that the held some of us for it.
So what's been? I think about you know your
background. We want to talk a bit about that
Journey from a history. Major Columbia walk you to the
world of advertising a spent some time working on these
larger Brands. What really took Away from that
moment, right? You're working at some of the
largest Brands and you see this opportunities inflection point,
talk a bit about that. Yeah, so I had, you know, it was
great to work on all these bigger Brands, obviously,
because I learned a lot, you know, and I'm one of those
people that's always kind of pushing the envelope, no matter
where I am. So even on Olay, right?
I saw this opportunity. I worked on Olay, body care,
personal cleansing, you know? And I I knew that like luxury
Brands it started talking about shea butter and a ton of Of
course I know the black community has been using shea
butter, you know, before anybody was talking right like any white
people at say, you know. So I was like okay it's time for
a body wash upgrade and this is when I was like a little baby
like assistant account executive, okay, Gregor like,
how about I saw shea butter on the list of like, ingredients,
we could add to the formula. Does it count early try adding
shea butter? And of course, there was pushed
back, like, oh, but people might find it too buttery and too
greasy. Didn't, you know, I was like,
yeah. But when people start hearing
that, it's in these luxury Brands, they're not going to
care. I was it.
Can we please at least take it into research, please please,
pretty. And can we use a dark-skinned
black models, right? So long story short, I really,
really fought for that and it ended up being like the best
selling SKU that year. Like, what body wash was shea
butter? So strategy there was like, I
knew that I had to go make it argument.
For a why this might work, right?
It wasn't just like, ah, let's just try this based off of
nothing. So, I went and did my own, like,
research to identify the market opportunity, why it might work,
you know them presented the case.
So, over the years, it's like I continually kept honing those
chops, right? Like doing the research, right
with consumers and with Trends, just in general borrowing, from
other Industries, you know, and having like my eyes and, and
years always Open which again, is like, part of the reason why
I moved to Cincinnati and just going to interject with that
right now because I think it's really important as people
working in Creative, feels to continually be, pushing your own
beliefs and experiences and you cannot really be good at
strategy. If you're continually just
bringing the same old story to the table and not pushing
yourself. So, you know, I was like, okay I
lived for 35 years in New York, I lived in London a bit Bolder
Colorado, I lived because I wanted to experience what it
would be like to literally like be the only brown person on the
street but I did a whole other storage fan La cuz you gotta go
to La and net a my gets tied five Midwestern phase and if
dovetailing with the election so we can move to Cincinnati have
our vote Cal and experience what it's like to be in the midwest
because everybody on the coast tends to just like No talk
negatively about people in the midwest as if it doesn't matter.
Right? We just fly over the Midwest,
their opinions don't matter. The coasts are where it's at and
I'm like, no, that's not a good way to think and is a creative
and it's not going to make us better as human beings, right?
Or as people working in Communications dry.
So I wanted to come here and experience the Midwest because
it will bring that perspective to my work and make me a better
artist. And a better person.
So I love your kind of story of this journey in this always
being open. Yeah, and receptive and always
being hungry, right? You hear about it, you're
devouring ideas and knowledge and space and location, but
always being hungry. So, I'm going to play a little
bit, a tribute to the visual imagery of the late, Eric,
Carle. And I see you continuing being
hungry and hungry in your career and then a few years ago, about
a decade ago, you hidden inflection point.
In which that hunger turns into the birth of neon butterfly.
Yeah, so, you know, it started like, so I love doing a million
different things as you can see, because again, I just want to
like know as much as I can about people and experiences and all
of that. And I started doing a yoga
teacher training program in New York before.
Everybody was doing yoga and I love the training program that I
did so much. I was like, we need to Rebrand
this and as an offering to my teacher Kelly.
Morris. I rebranded the yoga teacher
training program and an enrollment tripled in a
semester. Wow.
And then people started coming to me to help them, you know,
with their small businesses and I was like, let me do this on
the side, has kind of like a pay, what you can situation,
I'll keep my Ad Agency job so that I don't have to compromise
my Integrity over here and literally, let me just help
people. And then eventually I was like,
oh, I could do, Just do this full time and I will say I went
back to the agency World a couple times, okay?
And there was one time the last time where this was right after
Ferguson happened, and I happen to be working at an agency.
I was brought in to help them win the Twitter account, okay?
I won't name who it is but essentially they didn't want to
talk about black lives matter and we were pitching Twitter.
Mmm, Jack Dorsey was on the ground.
At Ferguson, right? So I said and I was the head I
was the head strategist. Okay.
So I was like if we don't talk
about black lives matter we will lose fighting fighting fighting,
not getting listen to, I'm like oh this is what they mean about
the racism sexism. But I had never fully
experienced it as in my face, as I had at this last experience,
right? And then the week before the
pitch, there happened to be a New York Times article that came
out with DeRay McKesson on the cover talking.
Out Twitter. And by plasma hooker, I sent it
straight up to the global creative, right?
The worldwide Global. I was like Lissa and he's like,
oh yeah, why are we doing this? And so Lankin whom so anyway.
So that was my first. Like I don't need to fight like
this. Like I know that I'm right and
you know what I mean? Like I know I know I'm good at
what I do like why do I have to fight so hard and I know all
these little comments like why does Abby have to come to the
pitch and then you know my boss Boss said well I don't want it
to seem like it's just a bunch of white guys and I was like, oh
really. So, you know, after a few of
those things, I was like, you know what I'm done, like, I
don't need to do this, I'm going to start my own saying, right?
And do things my way and I'm going to make more of an effort
to diversify. The people whose voice is are
involved in creating campaigns. And I want to do things that
really make a difference in the world.
I don't want to continue to perpetuate this single
perspective, Ad Agency world, It's that's that's really how it
started and I was like I know it's going to be difficult
because yeah I mean you know Benny like people always all I'm
trying to find more different kinds of people to be on my
team's but it's so hard and I don't know where to look at and
yeah, it is really hard. But you know what?
Like someone has to to it or it's never going to change and
it's the most. It's the hard work.
That's the most valuable work, right?
We see that in the things that we build.
We tell it to our teens. We tell it to our families.
Yeah, the hard work. That crazy.
Eames and matter. I love.
He grabbed me on butterfly. Your statement is neon.
Butterfly is an agency that represents?
Yeah, and it's so eloquently and distinctly phrase right there.
Oh yeah. What you really are?
I love your mission. Is to help Brands connect with
the changing face of both American, the world around them
in changing in spaces in the ways in which people
communicate. And once again, you're fusing
that human insight and the rigors of business acumen.
As you've spent about a decade working, in this role of
capacity. What's been the most surprised
your dad, okay? Oh, two decades.
Yeah, you can go back to that. I'm making you younger you die.
Now, I now put a, what's, what's been the most surprising thing
for you. As you think about, you know,
your business in the marketplace today.
From when you first start it, what's been most surprising how
little it's changed interactive that diversity of people working
at higher levels. So yes, you know, it's funny
like, there's a lot of great organizations out there and
getting younger designers of color, creatives of color
account, people of color, you know, Anna.
And we're not just talking about race and ethnicity.
I am also talking about ability and all that other stuff, but
but they don't make it right. The higher levels.
And, you know, I know people are, of course, doing work in
the space. But at the higher levels, you
don't see it very much and you know, people also are always at
Abby, I haven't heard about you, I haven't heard of you.
You haven't heard of me because
I'm over here doing the work and I'm not sitting in an
organization, just waiting to like climb the ladder, so that
someone can Pat me on the back and point to the fact that oh,
we have a black woman in the c-suite, right?
You know what I mean? And so so I what's surprising is
how little it's changed. And so that's why I really
wanted to create a company that, that, at least, Us to do stew,
do things differently, you know, and I think I'm uniquely suited
to do it because I do, I have a white mom and I had a black dad.
So, I literally know what it's like to live live owl and embody
different perspectives, right? And it comes through and
navigating, the work, work that you do.
There's a quote that I love and it says, were more united in our
Humanity together. Yeah.
And that's from Jennifer Lee Chief creative officer of Disney
and we're excited. We're talking today.
There's some new work that campaign, a major campaign that
you've been a part of the just launched with the Walt Disney
Company. Hello, feet it.
Yeah, I can't do it justice. It's really powerful and I love
Eat it to share with our listeners.
This new campaign. Yeah.
So the new campaign is called reimagine tomorrow and it's
literally a dream come true for me.
It started with Disney coming to me and, you know, I had already
been like working with Disney on something for Minnie Mouse
Minnie. She's called now and and
modernizing her. And so I had one that pitch and
then ultimately the dni group. You know, they were like, all,
can you help us make a video about our commitment to
diversity and inclusion? And I knew immediately, it was
going to be more than a video, you know, everybody wanted it to
be more right, you know, and Disney they wanted an outsider
perspective to help them develop a creative concept for their
commitment and all the work they had been doing with inside
Disney. You know, that the public wasn't
really aware of ran. And this started over two years
ago before the pan. Endemic before George Floyd, all
of it. And I was like, we need to call
this reimagine tomorrow. I mean, I'm cutting short and
really great, you know, but can we reimagine it tomorrow where
we all belong? Because this is about belonging
and it is of celebration of our shared humanity.
And I really think too often people get stuck in this
divisive way of thinking, this isn't like an Us Versus Them
thing at all. It is, we are All greater than a
single story, right? Every single one of us whether
you're white, whether you're black, whether you're
able-bodied or not, or lgbtq, we all contain multitudes, right?
And that's why accurate representation matters.
And so I wanted to help Disney Create something that's
celebrated our shared humanity and help help communicate to the
to the General Public. That diversity.
And I think lusion is is something that benefits all of
us, right? Because we all want to be seen
for the complex human beings at we are.
And we just want to feel seen and heard that's all we all want
the same thing, right? And, you know, that the Disney
story really speaks to the richness of stories.
Yeah. That's why they're the perfect
ones to bring this campaign to life because they're the
ultimate storytellers the greatest of all time.
And we think about storytelling and its role in transformative
role in design, that of half that we do as designers in
design, Business Leaders. The concept is really about
bringing those stories to life subtract.
As you talked about the Disney space and are there's a notion,
we talk about these ingredients that go into it.
The storytelling, the authenticity, what I love about
the Disney stories, you also talked about the power of time.
This wasn't a strategy that's just thrown out overnight,
right? This took some time.
Mine and some investment to kind of think about this and build it
and get it right? Yes.
And a lot of care. And I also want to say, like no
one's perfect, right? And this isn't perfect, right?
And that's that's what I think we all need to kind of allow,
you know, his kind of cancel culture world.
It's like companies will make mistakes individuals will make
mistakes. But what's most important is
that we try Why right? Is that we try, you know, so
you're absolutely right. It has been a Herculean effort,
you know, and and so many incredible people at Disney.
He, you know, when we say Disney, we met Hulu, not toab
saying eat while Disney animation and so many people on
my team, you know, that have put their heart and soul into this
just because I want to make the world a better place at, you
know, and help bring people together.
It's really about bringing people together. ^ story.
Yeah, and it's incredible to have these conversations when
you're talking about just a diversity of Brands and
conglomerate but also the diversity of skill sets.
That people are bad guys. Yes.
And I love that you said that because one of the things that,
that was really important to me and how I work or my company
works, is we find people everywhere, right?
It's not, it's not. And I actually, I walked people
that don't necessarily come from a, from a Ad Agency world.
Like one of the, one of the writers we work with, I found
him on RAM. This young black man, he's an
educator either teacher and he writes poetry and its rights.
So beautifully and I hired him to help with the concept being
of our main film for reimagine tomorrow, right?
You know, so he got to share his stories about what he has to go
through. You know, what he was telling me
about how he puts a bike rack on his car so that he's less likely
to get pulled over. And I started crying when I
heard that story because I, of course, have my own stories from
my brother, or thank you, Don for you, have your own that you
do, right? So, the opening scene of our
Anthem film is a young black boy saying, what if the world could
see me the way I see me? And that's, that's what this is
about. We all just want to be seen for
who we are. And then this very come from
that history, becomes a net. So it creates that space that
that opens us up. And, you know, in addition to
the hunger, you've always been bold.
So, you know, talk about talk a bit about that.
How is this, a Columbia, New York, vague?
Or is this, how is this a nice metal?
I know. And it's, it's interesting
because it's like, you know, everyone though.
The all you seem so confident Isn't this that I mean I guess
but like inside you know it I'm actually kind of shy and it's
very hard even coming on to a podcast like this and and the
reason you know that I do it it is is for the call has right.
You know what I mean? It's like what I'm trying to
bring into the world is bigger than me.
And also have to like, get over read over my own fears but it's
really, it is really hard. But yes, I'm, I'm bold, I like
to say, I never fit in so I decided to stand out at some
point. Just had to like and erase it,
accepting of where you are, you know.
Yeah, it's interesting but having this conversation, I've
always kind of distinguish in my own world and with our teens and
conversations, the distinction between being bold and
confident. Yeah, right being bold is often
in spite of all the things. It's, I don't know what's
happened. I'm terrified.
I'm going to try. It's all of those things that
you still Step Up In Spite of right.
Is there some confidence that comes from it?
Yes. But sometimes your bold, First,
in the confidence follows. Exactly.
And sometimes you're like, if I
don't do this, I'm just gonna be upset with myself, you know.
Like there's that part of you, that knows what you have to do.
Exactly, you know, and that you've been given whatever
unique set of experiences, you've been given, you know what
I mean? So, like, again, I have a white
mother. I had a Jamaican dad.
I grew up on the Upper East Side of New York.
So I've always been in these Different kinds of environments
and had to navigate all sorts of kind, you know, kinds of people
so I can I can bring them together in a unique way, did
you, did you ever imagine that? This would be your story your
life when you were growing up in New York?
Did she think that that you'd have a space in Creative
storytelling and strategy and, and making it?
Well, I mean, I wanted to be a writer or like a diplomat.
So I knew I would be dealing with people.
Ryan can't even Education in some way, you know, but I didn't
realize this, you know, and that like, I mean, it is such a dream
really? That act, like, I got to even
just plant a seed of, can we create a tomorrow where
everyone's welcome wrist that alone, you know, and I'm so
grateful for Disney for bringing us into that, you know, at and I
will say, it's like the little things, it's not even the
content at all of that, that, that we've put out, but it's,
what's happened along the way. Right like Benny we have 88
percent diversity on our crew. Like what 88% and you know, the
moms like multiple mom's of some of the like young actors that we
had. They came up to me and they're
like I've never my kid has never been on a set like this and you
know they had tears in their eyes.
Say like this means so much for my son to see this and to be
treated this way, or my daughter to see Unlike you running a
production right? You know is that this is its
representation in tangible action, right?
So it's not just representation for tokenism space in there.
No it's representation in where their willpower is in people
doing the things that they do attack seeing the gifts that
they have, the training that they built up the rigor they
apply, and the Beautiful creativeness that they bring to
it. Right in that, knocked lie?
Yes. Seen that And it's the power of,
as you said, kind of the larger companies have ability to bring
this gravity, right? Yeah.
But I don't want to let our smaller companies off the hook
and these conversation as well. What are some of the things that
you've been able to inspire smaller companies to think about
their world, a resource and their impact in more Dynamic
ways? Yeah, that's a great.
That's a great question. So one of the things I did when
I first moved to Cincinnati is work, On a Congressional
Campaign, okay? For Kate, Schroeder was one of
the biggest Congressional campaigns in the country in a
big Democratic race and the incumbent he'd been he's held
the seat since the 90s. Zoe no knocking man, there's
gerrymandering at play. There's a lot of things at play
but you know, I was like, we need to, we need to engage the
black community in Cincinnati at the 50%, black City, and in the
district, as well. You know, so I challenged her to
really think about and she of course, already knew this but
you know, what are the different ways?
We can really communicate messaging wise in a way that
will resonate with with both black audiences and non black
audiences, right? That will make black people in
Cincinnati feel heard because the issue is, they feel like,
well, no one's talking to me. No one cares.
So I'm not even going to come out and vote for a congressional
election, you know what I mean? So then it's weaving and
Language, right? That speaks directly to the
Cincinnati black community, you know?
So it was pushing things like that, so that's it, you know, a
small company, example. I mean, there's like little
things, like, just making sure that their tea Humes our
directors, right? And again, I just want to keep
repeating this, it's not just diversity of race, it's
perspective, its ability. It's all of that because, like,
we all have to Ourselves on is straight so I can see, right?
So one of the things I I don't think about are all the, all the
things that non-seeing people need to think about, right?
So I need to have people over here, reminding me of all those
accessibility things, right? So anyway, like the more I just
I like to emphasize that with companies big and small.
I just have different types of people around you right now and
it's like shoe and it's a An active state, right?
It's not as Catalyst where we've now box and now we're done.
It's a neck were always, you know, we're always getting
better were always seeking more inputs in your nana asset.
You, we have to have a space in which we have no fear to mess up
because we get, we get slow. I'll mess up.
We will all mess up. I'm sure I've said it.
A million things already on this podcast that are not 100%
correct, right? He felt that if he let you know
what I love. I love you speak about this.
Again with the humility of. We will mess up.
With in with that comes wisdom, right?
That's how we gain that and more poorly our conversation of
strategy when it ties together in its wisdom with positive
intent, right? I think, I think that positive
intent helps drive so much of what we do today and how we have
impact for tomorrow exact. So a lot of your work week,
we're talking about kind of building and rebuilding and
it's, it's always future forward, whether we say the word
future is always thinking about what comes next.
Next. Hey ugly, as a dynamic agency
owner. What advice do you have to our
listeners? Those who are designers or
craves of business, folks, about building a dynamic future.
I think you need to put people first even and I know that's not
profound or new But it's a Madman.
Yeah, you have to think about people and then, and you have to
push yourself. Like I don't see enough
designers pushing their own beliefs, push your own beliefs.
Like I just did a Rebrand for neon butterfly time.
Slowly. Rolling out right front.
The designer that was working on it.
She, I'd reached pushed. And so the fault that were using
for my logo. Now his a font actually called
Marsha P Johnson. Marsha P Johnson, right?
The activist at Stonewall oh, I think does not get credited G
woman. Who's dragging key, right?
So the designer who I pushed and she's a white woman, she went
and found this young black man. He's a type designer Who
develops fonts based on activists.
Wow right so even within our font there is a story there's a
story with yeah but as it yes and it matters it's a story that
matters to to space and we're you are you know what my company
stands for. So as a designer I say whatever
project you're working on think about who you're talking to and
what matters to them and then push yourself and if you don't
know that audience go spend time, Time with them go, frying
them, I want to just take a moment in, thank you for Jess,
your candor and sharing the story because you just described
one of the hardest things to do which is having to do brand
strategy for yourself, right? We're going to space.
We're helping everyone else and we have the training and the
skills, but it's amazing how that all goes away.
When you have the Herculean personal task of, how do you
express the brand of the company to build out and Love you kind
of going into that process and talking about the challenging,
right? Because pushing yourself out for
one, have had to do that and you find yourself at a loss.
Clients, friends colleagues school work.
You're on it. Exactly and brand yourself.
Exactly, right? And and you know, and it's
figuring out. What is most important to you?
What do you stand for a minute? Goes back to write.
Like, what is your why? And my Y is narrative change,
right? You know, I'm trying to use
media and Occation to enact narrative change.
So the narrative change has to be embedded in all my design of
elements in some rare. Acity, it pay.
Well, I love the fact that you brought in Partners rights and
we're out of bread. You brought in partners, and you
get this reflective surface that you have where they're at.
Telling you about how your brand is, showing up in the world.
I always find that powerful. It's one thing for us to know
that we are future forward. It's another thing for those
around us to say, they see the future reflected in US.
Yes, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. They had different people touch
it to like a designer here, right?
Who is in a certain type of body from Cincinnati, certain set of
experiences, then I have another person in a different body in
San Francisco. Did another part of it, they
work together, iterating on it, okay, you know, so have
different perspectives. Even in my own work but all come
culminating around a singular Vision, right?
I love earlier. When you mentioned that you find
through rigor, their equals freedom, and we're talking a bit
about space and place, and so it's not lost on me that you're
coming from. You're having this conversation
with you. Now, in Cincinnati and
Cincinnati is an important kind of pivotal point.
We talked about Transitions and collaboration and strategy as
one of the soon. T'rul spaces of the Underground
Railroad. You're going to think about kind
of strategy as working together towards Dynamic goals it and the
power of your, your space and me.
I love how with working with your brand, you're getting
creative voices, from multiple locations that are informed, by
those experiences. And right, we are on one side of
freedom. I mean, literally, over the Ohio
river. Right?
Leaves crossed it and they were free.
Yeah, I mean, so there there that energy here of this, like,
coming from bondage to Freedom. My brother talks about this all
the time because he's also here, you know what I mean, right?
Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up and
it can it continues at the notion of family, right?
Yeah. Holly Bill, family, and both
blood but awesome and experience in bond.
Yes, and and can we continue to extend who we consider our
family and we consider more and more people are family and and
that is what my work is trying to do.
Honestly. So that these difference is, you
know, that like skin color and all these other things, the
surface differences, don't don't prevent us from finding family
and inspiration. If you had one piece of advice
for Creative, starting a new business, we we did a bit of
research this past year of our design POV.
And one of the big takeaways was the fact that we saw that
statistically. Speaking all designers will
become their own businesses, right?
Kind of a change at some point in a career often
simultaneously. Like you mentioned before
because of the skill, they created Acumen, you have an
opportunity in agency to create your own work.
So what advice would you have Have because you've done it,
you've done it, both you've been it part time.
You've been side hustle. You've been main domain enter a
Criterion space. What advice would you have?
I would say for designers to find yourself a good strategist
because what I have heard, the feedback I've heard from, a lot
of the designers that I hire is that they are so happy to work
with me and with us, right? Because we do all the rigor we
start with that business objective, right?
We start with the target, we start with the positioning, so
then by the time, the designer does their creative work.
The client is almost 100% of the time, going to buy the work
right heads, they bought off on a strategy.
So I've had designer say, oh my God, this is been so easy and
nice and painless, right? Because what happens, a lot of
the time when designers go off on their own, is it that may
just become this like this thing where they're just executing,
right? What clients asked for?
And then they're using creative work to determine strategy which
we all know that leads to burnout.
Right. Right.
So then they're working over here hours and hours and they
give the client the mimic. I think.
No, that's not really what I wanted, right?
And half the time it's because they're not aligned on the
Strategic Vision. Or What?
What? In fact, they're trying to
achieve. Right.
And it's also to your point is
that understanding that gets missed, right?
Yeah. Terrific.
Communication Breakdown. Yeah, process.
We all hear things differently, we all see things differently
while since things differently and strategy becomes at
alignment, they have throughput and so that we can make sure
we're each taking away. I know those important features
that into it yet, there's to your point, there's nothing more
frustrating than doing incredibly creative work.
That doesn't work for you, the client or your goal, right?
Exactly. So I would say, pair yourself
with a strategist. I would also say Try to work at
a reputable bigger Agency for a little while.
I definitely say that because it gives you a certain a rigor and
a certain like a certain like experience with running
different kinds of Productions. Coming up with different gleich
challenges that arise you know, hand bumping up against other
creative people, right? You know, so I don't advise just
oh, I come out of school and like I start my own bang, like I
really Sure, it can work. But is it going to make you the
best designer? No, I don't think so.
Well it's interesting. We talked about kind of that
intentionality, right? So seeking the skill sets that
you can get our members early in our career.
You know, I always had limited budgets because the places I
work with had limited budgets sigh envelop.
That really good skill exactly. But but working with a larger
budget, was it? Something?
At the time I was experiencing right.
I have a seeking out the ways to kind of add to your tool.
Kit is only going to make you strong.
Er, down the line to your point. Exactly.
And if you're younger, just try
a bunch of different places. Yeah.
You know, and experiences to see what you like.
So, one of the things that's a takeaway for today's world is
how, you know, more comfortable Brands and organizations are
mashing up, scale and size. So the larger organizations
being able to work with smaller groups.
Yeah. And vice versa, there's not a,
there's not a gap that we Face the years ago where there's a A
bigger block. If you are an agency of a
certain size, you couldn't have a conversation table, right?
That with that, going away and democratizing.
How do we make them? How do you make the most of your
shot? You coming of a new client who's
seen some of the great work you've done.
But they're kind of new to the neon butterfly approach.
How do you make the most of that engagement?
I really step into their shoes. I think about what is that the
biggest challenge to them gray. So again this goes back to what
I was saying, right about, think about the people.
So the people in that instance is the company that I'm pitching
to, right? So what is it?
That they really need salt and it might not be articulated
properly on the horror of p. In fact, a very often, isn't it
really isn't, right? Yeah.
Usually is not it. It it, it can get the RFP,
always relies a fact that the client or the organization
knows, it absolutely what they need.
And the reality is, if we did we wouldn't be asking you, right?
And this is that opportunity where I think we layer in our
insights and space, right? I remember having a professor
Columbia. That always said that that
Insight is a knowledge that you receive that when you hear it,
it feels like it, was there all along and we've all had those
moments where you the data and the research supported and you
come in and go. Oh, yeah, that is right.
It gives you a new way of seeing that makes it perfectly in line
with what it should be. Exactly exactly.
And I think the best designers are the most insightful and the
most curious and the most interested in people that they
are. So if you Had a pitch and you
had to bring in for skill sets of personalities.
Who would you put together as your for for your team?
Someone that can think really big conceptually rice?
Then I would bring in a really strong writer.
Well, let me step back. Everyone would have to think
conceptually on my team and I like have these exercises I make
people do. So everyone has to be able to
think conceptually Because there's a lot of designers it
can make things look pretty but they can't think conceptually
and that doesn't really work for how I run my company gray.
So an art director and a writer that can think.
Conceptually they can think really, really big and who
appreciate and enjoy solving business challenges that they
actually enjoy it. So they have a bit of strategic
mindedness themselves, right? So our director With a design
background but who has done creative Direction.
But who isn't so removed that they've just been, like, bossing
people around for the past 10 years, okay?
You're attending it. Yes, I mean gets in there and
who can you knows who's not above like, pushing pixels and
stuff still, and add a writer who really has like that and
understanding of people, and it's like a poetic writer that a
thick for me and And then a super, super, super strong
account person, which I all, I also am, but I always eat
another one, right? And that's all about
relationships, relationships and detail right detail and
organization. I guess, one of the things that
we are always told we are like we Ila.
I mean, we catch almost everything, it's like scary.
Uh-huh. You know, and I was from my
training right now, my work with my first boss.
Now actually, she's works with me.
Oh well, because I've, I barely trust anybody.
So, like I'm only going to trust the person that trained me to be
on the details. You know, this is Beth.
It is. It's amazing.
Like, how much those moments stick out in your your career?
Yeah, I remember having a general counsel who was a
stickler for trademark incorporation and copyright in
it and even the stickler for it and I would have my teams and we
would do incredible work and I remember him coming and bringing
a magazine. To me and saying this is
brilliant. This might be one of the best
ads I've seen for our organization and we were Global
and he looked down, he opened it up and he pointed to the bottom
and he said, yeah. But without any with proper
trademark activation you just gave away our our intellectual
property to the world. I remember having these moments
of it became the space on the. He'll skip ahead for me, 20
years from now. I'm always in the middle of all
the things that do. I do this kind of intellectual
property, checkpoint all the time.
And people got like, why like why?
But if such a it was a pain in the moment but such a
transformative kind of experience of this is the type
of work you do the rigor, it's huge.
And that's what you get from a PNG.
That's what you get, because it's from that work that I'm
able to, then understand all of the, like, maneuvering through,
you know, dizzy legal, right? And how to do it, and what to
look for and that even something as small as a sound effect
mother Licensed, right? And it's interesting to then be
a small agency, but deal with these global concerns which is
when you're working with a partner like a Disney, they do
have global concerns, right? And this is, how does this work
in different markets? How does this work in various
rules? What is our core space?
And I think that that's to your point of rigor, that's important
lesson for our smaller agencies and designers of work to do, you
know, you don't let the size of your This dictate the impact and
quality of your work and don't get, don't get like, don't get
cocky, you know, because if you want to take on these big
projects like the non sexy stuff, like legal like
licensing, let all those things that's of makes or breaks a
project. It really does.
Yes. And if you cannot like, if you
don't understand contracts, if you don't understand all the
processes that have to be gone through, and When?
I mean, she is over, it's over and, and you don't want to be
the vendor, the partner that cost your partner more than the
actual campaign execution. Exactly, to defend and deliver,
right? Right.
And not only that, but they could just take it away from you
mid-project because they're like, oh, they can't handle it.
And, and that is a thing with his male agency.
Like, you do have to prove yourself, right?
Because they are wondering, are they up to Two tasks, you know.
And that is something we need to, you know, always kind of be
showing like we're up to task. And here is our experience.
Here's the work. We've done procure.
The clients that we've had, you know.
So so you need to be ready. She could.
So is, is, as we get ready and kind of turn a quarter in a new
year. What do you most excited about?
I'm excited about like what the next thing is it can like
impacts people, right? You can and you know a real way
like for instance like you know the environment like I'm like,
how can I how can I use my skills with communication to
really like, you know, put some communication out there whether
it's lobbying or something that like really, really makes a
difference with like environmental policy It's just
like on and in my mind, you know, yeah.
Yeah. That's that's what this is the
podcast for that funds face of what.
Yeah. Like.
Right. Right.
That that's what we're looking at.
What? Yeah, because it's like, yes,
the little individual things are going to make a difference
environmental wise but it's policy.
Its massive sweeping policy, right?
And how do we convince enough people?
That that Then voting for these policy changes.
Matters right back to me. It's the same thing at the
marketing challenge, right? In my mind.
So everything for me is a marketing challenge, you know?
It's the same thing with labor, right?
An organized labor. Am I most people don't
understand what unions are, right?
He don't understand that unions are like actually in their best
interest, right? Yeah, I mean to that's a whole
other campaigns I'm interested in like in using marketing and
communication, to to really move some of these big challenges
forward, you know, I'm not Not interested in getting
pigeon-holed in like, dni space. Like, I've spent my whole career
not being like Multicultural agency or any of that stuff,
because then you're just like, in some Corner bike, you know
how it is. Yeah, you're in corner with
where you get work, that gets perceived as less substantial,
less creative, and less Dynamic and Ike this muta loses out of
it. No one should have their talent
and resources skill Limited in that way.
Yeah, and I also think it's an absurd concept because the
entire world is Multicultural. So, like this whole thing of
like General market, that's it a ridiculous concept or so General
market. Like yeah.
I mean, especially now with like how many Niche groups have been
created because of social media. You can't think like that
anymore. You know and everybody's
influenced by by the niche that they're in and that transcends
race and gender and of can crusher.
There are track, you know, intersections.
But you can't think like that like oh, all black people think
this way and all Asian people think that way.
It's not like that. No, that's definitely not energy
said, those are all kind of dated early advertising concept
that analog single Town. Yeah, it's still happening Heats
and that's, that's the beauty of Our Moment.
Now, to be able to challenge those face.
And as you're doing with work to making a difference, that's
that's changing outcomes for organizations.
It's for issues, that matter for people after companies a
gradually and and and you're doing it with such kind of
commitment and authenticity and flare.
I'm just, I'm delighted that we got a chance to spend some time
together to talk about this journey from New York to
Cincinnati and everywhere in between.
Yes, and we get a chance to talk about Humanity, intention and a
power of 20 years. I know our listeners will
appreciate her saying there that, you know, your Brilliance
and wisdom and just tenacity over the 20 years, really,
reflects in the work. And I'm excited to see what
comes next. We're going to be watching
closely with the Disney campaign and digging in, as you move
forward. But I think I leave you with
this, with just saying in my translation of your brand, bold
bright, and transformative, and that's what Abby and neon
butterfly are to me. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you all for joining us for this episode of design adjacent.
Join us next time. Thank you.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of design, adjacent a
podcast about the Nexus of design today.
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