1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,520 As a person that chairs my program, I often have to meet 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,800 with prospective students and their parents, and I talk about 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,560 those common notions, right? It's like, OK, so where did your 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:11,920 interest come from? And I'm sure. 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,600 And I hear things like logos, brochures, T-shirts, you know, 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,760 that's why I'm interested in this. 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:17,800 And I said, you know, those are great. 8 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,240 I said, I want you to know it is much more than that. 9 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,120 And I said at the heart, it's about improving everyday lives. 10 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,760 That is a core tenet of the way we feel about it here and that 11 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,680 we do that through experience and behavior. 12 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,600 Start small, but think big. I think we all want to save the 13 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,640 world. We all want to do really, really 14 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,440 big, impactful things. But things happen through 15 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,400 cultural shift and cultural change. 16 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,520 And so yes, there are big flash bang things that make change 17 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,960 happen great, you know, but there's also things that have to 18 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,640 happen incrementally. And why not be part of that 19 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:58,880 incremental space change? Welcome to the AIGA Design 20 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,160 Podcast. We are the official podcast for 21 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,640 the oldest and largest professional association for 22 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,360 design. My name is Lee Shawn Huang, 23 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,920 Senior Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA and the 24 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,920 host and producer of this show where we talk about professional 25 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,240 development and creative growth for design professionals. 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,840 First off, special thanks to AIGA members. 27 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,080 Your support makes programming like this podcast available to 28 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,040 the entire design community for free. 29 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,600 If you are not yet an AIGA member, consider joining. 30 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,480 Learn more and sign up at aiga.org. 31 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,040 Now for the guest of this episode, Jen Stucker is 32 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,440 associate professor and chair of graphic design at Bowling Green 33 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,080 State University in Bowling Green, OH. 34 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,400 At the core for teaching and the design programs are developing 35 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,440 mindful individuals responsible for engaging in the social, 36 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,000 cultural, and technological world through collaboration, 37 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,680 facilitation, and leadership. Jen is also an active member of 38 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,600 AIGA, specifically the Toledo Chapter, and has collaborated 39 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,800 with AIGA Toledo and AAGA Design Educators Community on community 40 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,240 projects. She's also one of the very first 41 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,880 designers to complete the AIGA Professional Design 42 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,760 Certification Program, becoming certified as an AIGA Design 43 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,440 Leader last year. We're going to explore in this 44 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,360 episode how Jen incorporates community engagement into her 45 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,720 design practice, discuss the expanding definition of design 46 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,080 as profession, and talk about the value of design communities 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,000 and programs. Jen Stucker, welcome to the AIG 48 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,240 Design Podcast. Thank you, Alisha for this 49 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,480 invitation and also just very excited to participate and 50 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,200 contribute to this community. Yeah, we're glad to have you 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,720 here. Your perspectives as an 52 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,560 educator, as someone who's gone through the certification 53 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,480 programs, someone who's been active in our chapters. 54 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,640 So we actually met through your portfolio review. 55 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:50,400 I had the pleasure of reviewing your portfolio as part of the 56 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,440 professional design certification assessment. 57 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,640 And one of the things that stood out for me was how much you 58 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:59,720 incorporate community engagement into your design practice. 59 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:02,600 So maybe to kick things off, can you share with us a bit about 60 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,040 your background and how you got started in this kind of work and 61 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,680 give us maybe a few examples of how you do this? 62 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,200 Yeah, absolutely. So, so I'm going to go back 20 63 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,800 some years to sort of give some of this background, but I 64 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,000 graduated with my Bachelor of Fine Arts and Graphic Design 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,880 from BGSU, quickly entered into the design sphere into my first 66 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,760 job. I was working for a company that 67 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,920 focused on channel marketing, so mainly in construction industry. 68 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:30,760 So Owens Corning was one of our clients. 69 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,600 Marillac cabinets, Dow Styrofoam and the work was, you know, I 70 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,040 had to know Pantone 186 for Owens Corn Red and Pantone, you 71 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,240 know, 210 for the pink for the Pink Panther. 72 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,960 And it was a great agency, great people. 73 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,680 And also with the side projects, it was my main work was, you 74 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,200 know, vinyl siding, brochures, roofing things, you know, 75 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,240 insulation, cabinetry. And I did some side projects 76 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,720 though too, some things for the arts Commission here and there, 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,440 some things for some restaurants. 78 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,760 So I started there in 90 seven, 2000 and one 9/11 happens and I 79 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,160 got really reflective on what is it that I'm doing. 80 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,120 I'm looking and seeing these doctors and nurses and 81 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,840 firefighters and police officers attending to some like real 82 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,279 human needs. And I'm going, man, I'm just 83 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,839 like making a roofing shingle brochure. 84 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,560 Like it really taxed on like, what the heck am I doing with my 85 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,520 life? It was significant for me, 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,960 really made me think about, you know, what was all this training 87 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,520 for? And so I really thought about I 88 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,960 needed something that gave me purposeful meaning to my work. 89 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,200 But certainly I have sustained a living to, you know, I have to 90 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,960 have a job to to do that. And one of the things that's 91 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,520 also happening in the background of my first job is that I'm not 92 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,960 from Ohio originally. I grew up in Colorado and moved 93 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,960 here in 94 to Ohio. And one of the observations I 94 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,640 made was how people kind of dogged on their own city. 95 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,280 You know, they looked Toledo as like this Rust Belt town kind of 96 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,800 often the question like, why did you move here from Colorado? 97 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,520 It's so great. And I was like, wow, this is 98 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,800 like a great town. And then, of course, in 2012, 99 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,720 Yahoo runs an article. It says one of the most 100 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,320 miserable cities to live in. And there's this photograph of 101 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,720 Toledo. So all these things are kind of 102 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,040 reinforcing this messaging and it, it bothered me a lot because 103 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,320 I really like the people in Ohio. 104 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,800 I really like the location of Ohio. 105 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,040 I am within 4 hours of Chicago, five hours of Toronto, 3-4 hours 106 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,080 of Pittsburgh and now where I'm in Detroit. 107 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,000 So I can be in a lot of different places and a very 108 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,120 short drive back in Colorado, while beautiful, I could drive 109 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,840 four or five hours and be kind of in the same landscape and 110 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,640 probably not a whole lot of different cultural experiences. 111 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,880 So I'm like, you guys have a lot of great things in this 112 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,760 community and I knew that we were going to be here for the 113 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,040 long haul. My husband got a job here and 114 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,000 his family was here. And so I guess that idea or that 115 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,920 language of bloom where you are planted or the grass is green, 116 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,520 where you water, it was something that meant a lot to 117 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:00,680 me. Like if I'm going to be here, 118 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,440 then how can I help impact and improve the community within 119 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,120 that I live in? And so I really started very 120 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,280 small because, Oh my gosh, making a big community impact, 121 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:13,440 like how do you do that? And so one of the ways was Co 122 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,960 founding the AIJ Toledo chapter with my colleague and friend Amy 123 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,480 Fiddler. And through that we started also 124 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,080 then doing smaller community engagement projects. 125 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,720 So design shreds for nonprofits in need, really trying to build 126 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,360 our design community in that space. 127 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,040 So that's been kind of that driving sort of force was what 128 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,160 am I doing? I have these skills and how can 129 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,160 I apply those skills in really meaningful ways? 130 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,440 And so, yeah, that's kind of where that came from. 131 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,480 So following up on that, you are a design educator. 132 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,680 A lot of your projects are connected to community 133 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,560 engagement in your university specifically. 134 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,520 So thinking about your work with the round and higher education 135 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,520 administration, can you share a little bit about how those came 136 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,560 about and your process? Like how do you integrate the 137 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,400 teaching with the community practice through the lens of 138 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,000 these projects? For sure. 139 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,480 And, you know, that's also what's great is the university 140 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,880 is a great place to, you know, as a public institution to do 141 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,400 this type of work. At BGSU in particular, the 142 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,920 University of Mantra is a public university for the public good. 143 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,280 And so that serves as a great internal and external branding 144 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,400 message. It makes us all question, like, 145 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,840 what is public good and what are our contributions to public 146 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,120 good? And so back in 2021, my 147 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,360 colleague Heidi, niece and I had gotten to know each other 148 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,240 through a book club. And then her background. 149 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,800 She is a scholar in Native American drama and theater. 150 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 And so she's in the theater department was really looking at 151 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,480 the land acknowledgement statement at BGSU and we didn't 152 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,240 formally have one. And there were also a lot of 153 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,400 different departments across the institution that were using 154 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,680 different land acknowledgement statements. 155 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,320 So some having different references of different tribes 156 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,120 that were from this area. So we thought it would be great 157 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,520 if we could bring one together that we're all uniformly using 158 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,560 that is researched and really highlighting and reflecting on 159 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,520 the, on the communities that lived here. 160 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,480 And then how we could also, you know, make a better presence by 161 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,040 having this statement. And, and we have an FAQ. 162 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,320 We built a website around it, talking to people about why 163 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,120 would you do a land acknowledgement statement? 164 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,760 What purpose does it serve? How do you talk about it? 165 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,120 Where did this research come from? 166 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,560 And so after we created the statement and we went through 167 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,800 the channels of the university to get it presented to you, 168 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,480 Undergraduate student government, presented to Faculty 169 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,520 Senate, to our graduate committees, Then of course, we 170 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,080 created different versions of it. 171 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,240 So there's a written version, there's an oral version, there's 172 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,919 an e-mail version. And so that was great work. 173 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:45,360 But then those are words. And so it's meaningful. 174 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,840 We have to say what we need to say, but how do we actually do 175 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,880 something with that? So I had learned about a grant 176 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,160 that's an interdisciplinary grant through the Arts. 177 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,680 It's called the Glenn's Family Research Award for 178 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:59,040 Interdisciplinary and Innovative Research, and it requires 2 179 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,840 faculty members to partner together to do something. 180 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,040 And so I reached out to Heidi again and I said, hey, what do 181 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,520 you think about if we did a speaker series covering the six 182 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,560 domains of the arts here at BGSU? 183 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:15,800 So we have writing theatre, we have film, we have art design, 184 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 and we have music. And So what if we hosted Native 185 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,960 American indigenous speakers that all represent those 186 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,720 different domains so that we can give meaningful action to this 187 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,360 land acknowledgement statement and also we can bring more 188 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,320 visibility to the arts and design here at BGSU, but also 189 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,160 across the country. So that grant was for $6000 and 190 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,320 we ended up that first year raising $44,000. 191 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,600 Actually bring in those six speakers for all of 2022 that 192 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,400 covered, you know, we had Seth Sutton, who's a a filmmaker and 193 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,200 an author. We had Carol Lidstrom and 194 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,320 Michaela Goad, her children's book authors, Sadie Redwing, 195 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,720 who's a graphic designer, came Frank Wong who's a hip hop 196 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,440 musician, Mary Katherine Nagle who's a theater and a 197 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,400 playwright, and then Pat Pruitt who is a Metal Smith creator. 198 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,840 So that was our first year and it was, I mean, it was 199 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,840 outstanding. We had really great responses. 200 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,880 We averaged about 200 people that came to these events across 201 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,200 our campus. We had great community partners 202 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,200 with our library, being able to bring in the author, partnering 203 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,320 with other areas. So you know, the music 204 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,600 department helping with funding, the writing department helping 205 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,040 with funding, you know, our office of, you know, diversity 206 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,880 and belonging, supporting the funding, the president's office, 207 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,440 just a really nice connection. And then of course, as we're 208 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,520 halfway through, we're like that. 209 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,360 We can't just do one year. Let's just checking a box. 210 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,240 We're like, we really need to make a longer term thought about 211 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,680 this and and commitment. And we didn't know that six 212 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,640 events was challenging for us because you know, that's not our 213 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,440 full time job, right? We still have to maintain our 214 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,960 teaching responsibilities to our students and our other service 215 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,360 commitments and research commitments. 216 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,640 So the next year, I would say we scaled back, but we didn't 4 217 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,320 sneakers the next year. And so we had Kevin Millard and 218 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,720 Juana Martinez Neal, who are the author and illustrator of the 219 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,520 children's book Fry Bread, came and spoke to our campus. 220 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,800 But we were also able to work with community partners and 221 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,960 WBGUPBS to get funding to provide copies of Fry bread for 222 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,320 all the students in Bowling Green City Schools K through 3rd 223 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,960 grade, as well as all the teachers and the student 224 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,680 teachers that were graduating from BGSU that year, as well as 225 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,040 the our education teachers graduating from BGSU. 226 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,320 So, you know, we delivered just under 1000 books. 227 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,640 And so our thought process is that if we want to, it should 228 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,920 back up. Ohio has the highest number of 229 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,440 Native American mascots, sports mascots. 230 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,200 So we have 195 S more than any other in the country. 231 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,280 We also do not have any federally recognized tribes. 232 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,320 So for us there seems to be, maybe there's a correlation 233 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,640 there, individuals having sort of free reign of picking their 234 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,720 mascots and, and not having to be held in accountability. 235 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,520 And, and how do we change this culture of disrespect and this 236 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,680 culture of not seeing why it matters? 237 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,040 And so for us, we really thought that that precondition is 238 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,960 educating the young people. And if we want to have cultural 239 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,920 shift and cultural change, we need to start earlier on. 240 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,920 So we look at that as fried bread as being one of those 241 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,160 mechanisms. And so then we had two more 242 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,480 speakers later that year, that fall last year. 243 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,520 So Ryan Redcorn, who is a graphic designer and also a 244 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,320 story editor on Reservation dogs. 245 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,520 And then we had Talon Silverhorn, who is Shawnee from 246 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,400 Southern Ohio, from the Dayton area. 247 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,480 That also came and and we connected him with 5th graders 248 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,960 who have a living history experience. 249 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,600 And so they were coming back from camp. 250 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,360 And so Talon came and spoke to over 205th graders that heard 251 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,760 more of his stories about being Shawnee and and being in and 252 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,520 around this area. And then just this last March, 253 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,760 we hosted Tracy Sorrell and she's also a children's book 254 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,360 author. And we were able to get copies 255 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,320 of, we are grateful, one of her books and copies of classified, 256 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,520 another one of her books. And this time it was pre-K all 257 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,120 the way to 5th grade that we were able to get books in the in 258 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,160 the hands of kids. And so it's just been this 259 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,960 wonderful. I often use like the ripple 260 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,120 effect if like, if you want to do change, like each sort of 261 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120 throw even a little rack in the ponds where it has this big 262 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,720 ripple effect. And that's kind of what's been 263 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,000 happening. And so we have people that are 264 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,160 now reaching out to us wanting to connect, wanting to see what 265 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,680 we're doing. We're building amazing community 266 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,520 partners again with the library was with WBGU, with private 267 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,400 donors that are very excited about this work. 268 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,680 But our goal is to be that culture shift and and the ways 269 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:42,080 in which we can do that. Yeah, I wanted to do a little 270 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,320 bit of synthesis based on what you've told me so far. 271 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,320 So it sounds like for this project around the Native 272 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,360 American speaker series and engagement with young people, 273 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,160 you identified some problems, right? 274 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,160 Some structural issues about the lack of federal recognized 275 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:04,920 tribes in your state of the issue with the the mascots and 276 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,280 and all of that. And then sounded like you 277 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,960 started with a grant relatively small with the first speaker 278 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,920 series, but then turn that into a promise, turn that into a 279 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,520 platform for continuous programming in the future. 280 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,680 And so in doing this, it sounds like you're really expanding the 281 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,160 notion of what your practice is as a graphic designer, as an 282 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,400 educator, however you self identify where all the labels 283 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,760 that you wear. So I wanted to weave in our 284 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,000 theme of margins. We've been exploring the idea of 285 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,520 margins in this podcast, in our programming this year at AIGA. 286 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,000 And so I feel like, you know, graphic designer, even 287 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,840 communication designer, puts us in a certain box of 288 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,320 associations, right, of creating marketing materials, even 289 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,760 websites, products that you know, could be print or digital. 290 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,160 You talked about your early career and your experiences with 291 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,680 Pantone colors and brochures and all of that sort of stuff, 292 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,520 right? And so that is core to what we 293 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,360 do. It's a starting point, but it's 294 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,120 not an ending point. So your vision of being a 295 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,160 community, community engaged, graphic designer, educator, you 296 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,160 know, stretches outside of just those immediate things that we 297 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,000 think about in that box. So can you help us sketch out 298 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,640 some more like how you think about your profession or your 299 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,160 practice and what does it mean to be a designer when you're 300 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,840 also doing all of these things where event planner is also part 301 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,640 of this, right? And like fundraiser is also part 302 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,000 of your practice in addition to the promotional posters that are 303 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,840 also great and that are part of putting on these events. 304 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,880 Yeah, I want to back up to also just say that we've raised at 305 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,600 this point $113,000 for in the rounds. 306 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,280 So it's really grown quite a bit. 307 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,800 But I want 100% agree that graphic design is often situated 308 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,320 into a box of these things. As a person that chairs my 309 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,960 program, I often have to meet with prospective students and 310 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,480 their parents and I talk about those common notions, right. 311 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,680 It's like, OK, so where did your interest come from? 312 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,800 And I'm sure, and I hear things like logos, brochures, T-shirts, 313 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,160 you know, that's why I'm interested in this. 314 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,600 And I said needles are great. I said I want you to know it is 315 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,080 much more than that. And I said at the heart, it's 316 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,640 about improving everyday lives. That is a core tenet of the way 317 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,680 we feel about it here. And that we do that through 318 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,200 experience and behavior. So if we're going to improve 319 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,000 everyday lives, we need to be mindful of what is the 320 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,480 experience we want someone to have and then what is the 321 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,520 behavior we need them to do. So for students excited even 322 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120 about doing a music concert poster, that's great. 323 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,640 Think about that experience of what you want someone to have, 324 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,320 right? You want them to be excited, 325 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,960 joyful, invigorated about this music event. 326 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,000 And then of course, the behaviour is you need them to go 327 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000 to the event. So those two things are 328 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,880 connected together. But I also talked to them about, 329 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,680 you know, and I rattle off things that are not as maybe 330 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,640 lusciously beautiful, like a music concert poster of like, 331 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,480 going into Target and seeing a person in a red shirt is not 332 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,640 necessarily a fancy piece of graphic design, but it is a 333 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,240 piece of design that helps us when we're in that space to know 334 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,240 who to ask a question for. So Targets helped me in my 335 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,760 experience of like, I don't know where this thing is or I don't 336 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,720 know how much this thing is. I see a person in a red shirt, I 337 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,079 go over and I can ask them that price and the course of behavior 338 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,680 is like, I buy that item, right? Or I find the aisle that I need 339 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,200 to go to and I have a better experience. 340 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,720 And then I talk to families and, and students about. 341 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,560 And it's also driven by context. So if I'm wearing the red shirt 342 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,160 in the grocery store, it's not going to be meaningful. 343 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,840 So these, these design things, you know, happen in tandem 344 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,000 together. Or if I'm in the airport, I need 345 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,360 the experience of the kiosk. Delta needs to be really fluid 346 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,360 because I'm coming into that space and most of us are very 347 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,760 anxious, little stressed out, all kinds of worriedness, you 348 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,400 know, worrisomeness. And if that kiosk is adding to 349 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,040 my stress, it is just a ping pong of experiences of how I'm 350 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,640 going to be at the TSA counter when I get there next. 351 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,000 I need the bathroom signage to be clear. 352 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,800 I need the TSA signage to be clear, to know which line that I 353 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,680 get into. And so all of these are graphic 354 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,840 experiences that are really impactful to what that everyday 355 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,840 life experience is going to be. And then sometimes those things 356 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,240 that we create or make, again, are not those beautiful design 357 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,760 things. Sometimes they're facilitating 358 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,760 just conversations of sort of seeing that problem and then 359 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,920 going, OK, the thing that would make a better experience and get 360 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,600 a better behavior is for us to sit down and talk about this 361 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,360 thing. And that's not necessarily 362 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,320 visual product at all. But I think graphic designers 363 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,400 just have that sort of understanding, or that's the 364 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,520 understanding I'm hoping to build is that it's, it's not a 365 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,080 thing that's just you watch and, and it just exists like it's, 366 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,400 it's doing really semiotic, symbolic things for us to 367 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520 navigate our everyday lives. And so that the value of design 368 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,840 is essential because it helps us shape that daily life 369 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,160 experience. Totally. 370 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,760 So it sounds like even the best design poster or ad campaign or 371 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,880 whatever exists in some sort of cultural context or it exists in 372 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,880 an architectural context and based on what wall you're 373 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,560 putting it on. And it's not just a sort of 374 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,920 imagined user, but it's like a more complex social system of 375 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,280 different people who might interpret something in different 376 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,480 ways. I also love your example of the 377 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,800 airline of Delta. We actually have a a guest 378 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,240 coming up on another episode who's an expert in airline 379 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,560 branding. So that's something for 380 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,080 listeners to stay tuned for as an example. 381 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,400 So do you have any advice, Jen, for designers who maybe aren't 382 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,120 explicitly working on community projects right now that, you 383 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,240 know, they don't see the link to, like the public good in the 384 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,240 same way? Yeah. 385 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,120 How can they start thinking about this to get started, 386 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,640 whether it's starting their own projects or maybe just 387 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,200 incorporating some of this community engagement thinking 388 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,480 into their existing work? Yeah, I think there's two ways. 389 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,160 I kind of alluded part of that, you know, finding community 390 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,960 partners, discovering who is out there and who has needs. 391 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,760 Some of that just comes from observation. 392 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Some of it might be connecting with the United Way or 393 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,640 connecting with the Arts Commission and finding out. 394 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,840 But I wouldn't want anyone to enter those spaces like 395 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,280 flippantly and just be like, oh, I'm a graphic designer, I have 396 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,440 all these skills, let me help you. 397 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,480 You need to be very intentional walking into spaces in which you 398 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,960 want to do community engaged work. 399 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,760 You need to recognize also that it needs to be a sustainable 400 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,000 commitment. That whatever you sort of set up 401 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,880 in structure, like how is it going to exist or continue when 402 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,600 you're no longer there? Or maybe you're going to build a 403 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,040 long term relationship in that space. 404 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,560 And so if you walk in and go, OK, well, this is a nonprofit 405 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,600 and they need a new logo and I can help them. 406 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,160 And then that might even be what the nonprofit thinks they need. 407 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,840 But out of a conversation, you might discover in a deep 408 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,640 conversation with meaningful questions that they have poor 409 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,280 funding mechanisms and they don't have a website that 410 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,640 actually draws donations like that could be far more 411 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,280 meaningful. And then design the logo later, 412 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,720 if it's even needed, it might not be needed at all. 413 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,600 Or maybe some of their challenges are structural as far 414 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,440 as getting promotions to get volunteers for their things or 415 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,840 celebrating their volunteers. Because again, celebrating our 416 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,080 volunteers is another experience and behavior thing. 417 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,200 We'll get more volunteers if we recognize their efforts. 418 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,400 So I think it's being really mindful of it's not a magic wand 419 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,240 and it's not, it's not about the aesthetics. 420 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,400 I mean, the aesthetics support and help us interact with it, 421 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,400 but it is undergirded with a good research and good 422 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,480 background and good understanding of the problem. 423 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,120 And so that would be one way is to, you know, start reaching out 424 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,320 to, you know, talking to community partners and just 425 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,920 finding out what the vibe is. There are far more people that 426 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,080 need help. You know, I just get frustrated. 427 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,880 I'm talking to students and communities about, you know, 428 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000 these contests, for example, spec work all the time, like 429 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,840 because I'm an educator, you know, oh, this would be a great 430 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,920 project for your students to make this logo for my product. 431 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,880 And I'm telling students all the time, you know, there's, there 432 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,800 are people that really need your work. 433 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,320 So if you want to give your work away for free, then go do that 434 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,160 intentionally and let's not put it into a contest, but getting a 435 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,640 little off track. The other way for a person to 436 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,600 get into community engaged work is that sense of being very 437 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,680 observant and then go create it. You don't have to wait for the 438 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,280 prompt to come to you. My son, one of my son's favorite 439 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,640 movies, the robots see a need, fill a need. 440 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,200 So I think that's the other part is like what is missing or what 441 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,440 are you observing in the community? 442 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,240 So one of my early projects that I did was the You Are Here 443 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,160 project in partner with AIGA Toledo and with the Arts 444 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,280 Commission. The Arts Commission was wanting 445 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,040 us to do a previous project we'd already done, which was the 446 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,040 Urban Forest project that was in New York City and many other 447 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,280 communities. And they were like, yeah, can 448 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,920 you put up these great banners again around the community to 449 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,160 help people that are coming into our community be excited? 450 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840 And I was thought it was OK. I'm like, yes, we could do that 451 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,120 again. The banner project was great, 452 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,360 but really wanted to do something else. 453 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,720 I'm thinking about how people in my earlier conversation, I 454 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,400 mentioned to you feeling like meh about their city. 455 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,760 I started thinking about the dot on a map. 456 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,040 You are here and I love the dot on a map. 457 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,720 I love that it helps ground me. It gives me a sense of place, of 458 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,920 where I'm at. So I proposed an idea to the 459 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,240 Arts Commission which they funded and it was a series of 460 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,320 100 dots around the city of Toledo. 461 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,160 So they were ground stickers, 3 foot in diameter and artwork was 462 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,160 created by 100 different designers and they were all 463 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,280 location specific. So the artwork that they were 464 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,960 creating was specific to the location in which the dot 465 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,640 existed. And then on the dot was also the 466 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,120 Year here logo and a QR code. And then the QR code when you 467 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,720 scanned it gave you information about the location in which you 468 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,680 were standing. So you got historical 469 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,000 information and you also got information about the artist and 470 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,720 their statement about why they created it. 471 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,080 And then it became a gamified thing where we had an app and 472 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,360 the 1st 100 people to digitally collect 25 dots got a special 473 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,720 slow screened poster. And we had amazing feedback from 474 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,640 that from people just saying, wow, I, I rediscovered my city 475 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,920 like it was, it just went gangbusters. 476 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560 All I can say it was just a really, really great result. 477 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,600 People were just very excited people, some people were wanting 478 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,640 to buy smartphones. This is back in 2011 where I 479 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,680 found it only came out in 2007 and people wanting to engage in 480 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,720 this. And so for me, I saw an 481 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,840 experienced people just not feeling proud of their city. 482 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,760 And so let's get them reconnected to 100 different 483 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,160 places around the city that they can see and rediscover. 484 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,640 And then with that, I think if a person gets involved with 485 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,480 community engagement work, it's important that you have the 486 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,120 ability to deliver the results. So be mindful of what you can 487 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,720 promise and what you can deliver. 488 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,920 And also be mindful that discipline really matters 489 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,120 because a lot of this work is really on your own shoulders. 490 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,680 So the Arts Commission, you know, I outlined the timeline 491 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,000 for them, the budgets, all those things ahead of time. 492 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,920 But they certainly weren't watching the timeline and going, 493 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,720 oh, you missed this deadline. That was really on me. 494 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,600 And it was, it was for me to keep track of. 495 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,880 But it was also, you know, so they could see how what the 496 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,400 stages and phases were. But if the project didn't happen 497 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,800 at all, their money just wouldn't have been spent. 498 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,160 It would have just faded away. So in some respects, you know, 499 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,960 if you're not disciplined or really committed, a lot of 500 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,760 projects cannot happen and no one will be the wiser that it 501 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,240 didn't exist. So there has to be a strong 502 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,520 commitment with that work that you believe in it, you want to 503 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,200 see it happen, and you're going to do the work to make it 504 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,480 happen. And then you're going to connect 505 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,000 and collaborate with a lot of other people that you need to 506 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,640 help make that thing happen. And you also have to share your 507 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,840 inspired vision. This is what I see. 508 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,680 And that enthusiasm then translates and other people want 509 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,240 to participate in it. Yeah. 510 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,920 Thank you for sharing that. I'd love to hear about another 511 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,920 project that was also a collaboration you did with AIGA 512 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,280 Toledo and your local community. And then after that, we can 513 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,640 pivot to learning about your learning journey because you've 514 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,960 been doing a lot of learning as well, both with AIGA and with a 515 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,800 PhD program that you've been working on. 516 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,880 So talking about this project in particular, you did something 517 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,080 with chairs, the Sudintel project, which is also very 518 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,400 tactile and tangible in the sense. 519 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,120 And so can you tell us more about that community project 520 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,480 using the chair as that invitation for friendship and 521 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,600 communication? Yeah, absolutely. 522 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,840 So the You Are Here project won a Toledo Innovation Award. 523 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,320 So the Toledo Community Foundation was again very 524 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,160 excited about this project and the Arts Commission submitted 525 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,240 and so it won this $5000 award. And the Arts Commission said you 526 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,720 were really in AIG Toledo with the creative energy behind this. 527 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,520 So that $5000 is really all your money that you guys want to do 528 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,640 for our next project. So that was in 2013 that that 529 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,400 money was awarded and we had not figured out ways in which we 530 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,640 wanted to spend that money quite yet. 531 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,960 And through, again, enthusiasm and collaborative people, 532 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,760 someone reached out to me from a marketing agency up in Toledo 533 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,200 and one of their clients produces chairs, conference 534 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,560 chairs, restaurant chairs, just all types of chairs. 535 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,040 And they thought, well, hey, we have this artist seating 536 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,120 campaign. Maybe some of your design 537 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,240 students at BGSU could, you know, paint on some chairs and 538 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,680 we could do a little feature on them and, and do some promotion 539 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,040 of their product. And I was like, yeah, I guess I 540 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,440 just, I wasn't really excited. I. 541 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,280 Was like, yeah, that's cool. But like, yeah, what more can 542 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,080 you do? Right? 543 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,160 Yeah. Sounds like free labor a little 544 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,240 bit. I'm just, you know, and where 545 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,720 was it going to go from that point other than promote the 546 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,120 chair company? Totally. 547 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,200 So, pun intended. I sat on the idea for a while, 548 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,680 wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And then the Arts Commission 549 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,240 reached out and said, are you guys going to do anything with 550 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,120 this money? Because we have other things. 551 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:45,760 And I was like, wait, hold on, hold on. 552 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,120 So, you know, started doing some research and thinking about, 553 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,960 well, I have this opportunity with these chairs and we got 554 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,280 this opportunity with this money. 555 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,560 And So what does a chair mean? And so that pinged some research 556 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,040 about, you know, what's the meaning of chair? 557 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,320 What does it represent? And I loves the phrase pull up a 558 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,240 chair. When someone says that, you 559 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,880 know, it means we're going to sit down, we're going to have a 560 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,080 conversation with each other. And I really liked this idea of, 561 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,120 of conversation and storytelling. 562 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,840 So then that led me into finding and discovering World 563 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,480 Storytelling Day, which is on the vernal equinox every year. 564 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,440 And it's around a particular theme. 565 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,720 And in 2016, the theme was Strong Women. 566 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,760 And I'm like, I'm a woman, This is great. 567 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,960 And so how might I collect stories about strong women? 568 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,680 And so I proposed to MTS Seating was the chair company, and I 569 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,400 promoted and I proposed to the Arts Commission. 570 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,160 What about this idea of collecting 100 stories about 571 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,720 strong women of Toledo or told by people of Toledo? 572 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,800 And then those stories will be recorded. 573 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,080 And then those recorded stories will be given to designers that 574 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,880 will create graphics of those chairs of of the story. 575 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,400 And then each chair will include URL and you can go to that chair 576 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,320 and when you see that chair, you can go to the URL and then you 577 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,600 can listen to the audio story for which that chair was created 578 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,880 for. And then there was a touring 579 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,280 exhibition with that. So we had a hundred chairs. 580 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,960 I was mindful to have things that I knew I could move because 581 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,960 that was one of the things I learned in the York Here project 582 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,200 was there was a lot of physical things I wasn't prepared for. 583 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,160 So I was a little bit more prepared this time to go, OK, 584 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,520 I'm probably going to be the one moving these chairs. 585 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,320 So let me make sure they're stackable. 586 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,480 Let me make sure there's a cart that can think about. 587 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,440 The ergonomics for yourself to your own art handler. 588 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,240 Exactly. So I got a little smarter this 589 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,920 time. So what we did was to have these 590 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,160 chairs go and sort of mini exhibitions so that they could 591 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,480 be a small group, could be seen at different times in different 592 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,880 spaces. So, you know, one being down 593 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,160 here at BGSU and then also being back in the places where they 594 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 were collected. So 10 chairs, one on exhibition 595 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,320 at the Toledo Public Library. Then that would be up for two 596 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760 weeks and then those 10 chairs would come down and another 10 597 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,680 chairs would go up in the Sofia Quintero Arts and Cultural 598 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,480 Center. And people could come and see 599 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,160 that. And then ten chairs would come 600 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,640 down and then ten chairs would go up into the Frederick 601 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,960 Douglass Community Center and and so on and so forth. 602 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,120 So this went over a couple of weeks and then every day for 100 603 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,480 days, a chair was featured on Instagram with the storyteller 604 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,160 and the artist and the chair that was created. 605 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,760 And then the culminating output was have a final exhibition of 606 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,480 all 100 chairs at the Toledo Museum of Arts Glass Pavilion. 607 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,000 So we didn't tell people that there was going to be a place at 608 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,920 the end to see them all because we really wanted to drive people 609 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,600 to those different locations to be in those spaces and to 610 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,000 discover the stories. And then later on this, this 611 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760 large exhibition. And then after that, the chairs 612 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,840 went up for auction. And the proceeds of those chairs 613 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,520 went back to the Arts Commission for art classes for young people 614 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,160 in those neighborhoods from which we collected the stories. 615 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,200 And the stories were fantastic. Like some are emotional and some 616 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,360 are invigorating and some are funny. 617 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,400 And the artwork is great. And it gave graphic designers 618 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,160 and artists another place and space to participate in a 619 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,080 community project and, and have their work seen and, and 620 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,840 storytellers that aren't traditionally storytellers had 621 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,120 an opportunity. So, you know, we had over 180 622 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,520 people just in the chairs and the storytelling together. 623 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,200 So it just made that community that much bigger. 624 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,760 Sounds like a great example of how you take something that 625 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,360 initially was mostly just a promotional idea for the chair 626 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,520 company and turning it into something that's like actually 627 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,840 community based, actually participatory. 628 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,880 And so you built out a whole system there. 629 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,120 But it's also great example like how do you take this initial 630 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,160 brief and like say, well, actually let me one up that and 631 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,920 make it even better for all of the people involved. 632 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,760 Yeah, they were very excited that they had a much better 633 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,000 story to tell than just, you know, here's a painting and 634 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,320 here's the student they had now a great community impact piece. 635 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,400 You mentioned in your previous response the theme of strong 636 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,120 women, and so I wanted to pivot a little bit, take a detour on 637 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,120 that. So the name of your practice is 638 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,680 Sisu design and that's where to find Jen online to 639 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,720 sisudesign.com. It's sisu, which is a, a Finnish 640 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,600 word that your mother taught you, which means like something 641 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,840 like guts or tenacity or something like that. 642 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,800 So can you tell us about that heritage, like what you learned 643 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,880 from your mother and that cultural context? 644 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,000 Yeah, absolutely. Like it's a very common finished 645 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,520 phrase, So lots of Fins will totally know it. 646 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,160 If you go up to, you know, northern Minnesota, you'll see 647 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,560 lots of stickers for it. So it, Yeah, it's a great, a 648 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,160 great mantra. But yeah, I come from a great 649 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,880 lineage of really strong women. You know, I was able to go to 650 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,200 Finland and see the house in which my great grandmother was 651 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,520 born in and the church and where she actually learned to read and 652 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,360 write in her schooling. And then she migrated here to 653 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,040 United States, up in Houghton, MI. 654 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,080 And so thinking about, you know, that young person, right, that 655 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,440 came all the way over from Finland, then meets her husband 656 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,160 here, then moves to Minnesota. And you know, my grandmother, so 657 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,520 her daughter, which my grandmother was one of eleven 658 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,120 children that my great grandmother had. 659 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,800 You know, she ended up being a nurse. 660 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,240 Sadly, my grandfather died when my mom was 17, so she was 661 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,480 raising five children by herself. 662 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,040 So she has certainly projected and presented how a strong woman 663 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,040 navigates life. And then my mother, mother of 664 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,800 three, and my parents divorcing when I was seven and having to, 665 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,560 you know, work a full time job and trying to do all the great 666 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,040 things that she can do to provide for a family. 667 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,680 So I just have these great personal family role models. 668 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,600 But then, of course, you know, lots of other friends and, and 669 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,320 women in my sphere that, yeah, are just really encouraging 670 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,240 special people in my life. And I'm also encouraged by a 671 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,960 well known feminist. Gloria Steinem is from Toledo 672 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,600 and she has a phrase that says power can be taken but not 673 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,000 given. It is the process of taking. 674 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,040 That's empowerment in itself. And so that's, you know, a 675 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,640 special quote to me and, and the fact that I landed in this 676 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,320 Toledo area and she's a straight feminist in the Toledo area. 677 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,840 I sort of take that aura with me. 678 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,800 That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. 679 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,520 Continuing on that thread in a different direction, you've 680 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,320 shared a bit about what you've learned from your family, from 681 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,719 your experiences growing up, from feminists like Gloria 682 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,960 Steinem. You've also been pursuing 683 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,000 learning journeys through AIGA through this PhD program that 684 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,760 you're doing. So why don't we talk about your 685 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,560 participation in the AIGA Professional Design 686 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,360 certification first? So we launched this program in 687 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,040 2023, so just last year you're one of the first cohort of folks 688 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,000 who have completed the certification. 689 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,080 It's really meant to be a way to validate professionalism among 690 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,920 designers, to create inclusive pathways for designers. 691 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,280 Whether you learned in design school or on the job or from 692 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,960 YouTube and the school of Hard Knocks, whatever that is, 693 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,760 however you started, this is a way to validate that learning 694 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,360 and to create a basis of these are the things that we think 695 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,440 everyone should know as a starting point. 696 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,560 So can you tell us what brought you to this program, why you 697 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,920 decided to go through this? Because you're already a design 698 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,640 professor, right? So why did you go through this 699 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,360 program and what did you get out of it? 700 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,880 My decision was twofold. So part of it is exactly what 701 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,760 you said, being an educator. So you know what am I teaching 702 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,360 my students? I want to think about what AIGA 703 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,160 is saying as an institution. I highly respect AIGA personally 704 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,480 as a, as you know, an individual practitioner always had a big 705 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,520 admiration respect for AIGA and you know, hold it up high as far 706 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,080 as being one of those beacons of like, what is the value of 707 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,600 design? Who communicates that, who 708 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,080 translates that? Who represents us, who talks 709 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,200 about us and in the work that we do? 710 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,120 And so I really wanted to know, well then what is AIGA saying 711 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,360 going through the process of the learning modules, right. 712 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,240 And, and going through the process of the steps was, yeah, 713 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:50,120 really informative. And so as an educator, I'm not 714 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,600 practicing as a level of a boutique design owner or working 715 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,920 in top creative strategist levels anymore. 716 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,600 Right. I, you know, worked up to an art 717 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,160 director. It's been many years, and so 718 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,560 some of that lingo I don't quite have. 719 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,160 And so if I'm going to educate this next generation, right, 720 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,400 then I want to help them have that background and more of that 721 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,320 lingo. That's also changed. 722 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,360 And then the other part has been from my PhD. 723 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,160 So I am studying for a PhD in higher education administration. 724 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,120 And with that, my examination is looking at design leaders. 725 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,280 And so that's where my dissertation research focus is. 726 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,920 That was also more the reason I'm, I was more curious about 727 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,400 like, how do I inform my PhD information with what a IGA is 728 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,680 saying and stating about design leadership. 729 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,600 I've also been a very active leader in my institution, the 730 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,720 former faculty Senate chair for the faculty here. 731 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:50,120 And so I wanted to know too for myself of like, am I saying and 732 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,000 doing the right things? Because as you mentioned, some 733 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,160 of this we're not taught. So there's a lot of tacit things 734 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600 I've acquired over the years through observation, through 735 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,720 reading, paying attention, but I was like, am I doing this right? 736 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,360 Am I, am I getting the right things? 737 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,640 What am I missing? What else do I need? 738 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,560 So I was really, really excited to go through all of these 739 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,240 modules and took a lot of tidbits and information that are 740 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:18,640 sustaining with me, but are also going to go with my students as 741 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,680 well. I always think that I'm really 742 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,520 good about ethics and there were some really great questions and 743 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,520 prompts in the epic section that, you know, really had me 744 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,680 thinking that I think is really, really important to what we do. 745 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,120 There were many other examples, but that that section really 746 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,200 stuck out to me quite a bit. Yeah, that's a great point. 747 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,840 You know, we often think about ethics as just like a thou shalt 748 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,440 and thou shalt not kind of thing, right? 749 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,000 And obviously there are rules and norms and things that we 750 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,920 want to follow, even if they're legal isn't ethical, right? 751 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,720 So there's questions like that. But then there's also like ways 752 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:54,640 of thinking through things, especially with emerging 753 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,680 technology like AI and whatever new tools are emerging, right? 754 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,600 Like we have less precedent about like what that might be 755 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,600 like, just as another example within my lifetime, right, of 756 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,480 it's like it's now pretty well established. 757 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,920 You probably shouldn't be, you know, having a cell phone 758 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,080 conversation on speakerphone in public, right, in most places. 759 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,360 But that wasn't a problem until cell phones existed and were 760 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,000 widespread, right? So there's things like that that 761 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,800 are going to be coming up for us as designers with AI or whatever 762 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,400 the next tool will be. And so it's not just a you 763 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,640 should do this, you shouldn't do that. 764 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,200 It's like learning how to think through these issues about how, 765 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,320 what do your choices affect other people and what are the 766 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,200 trade-offs and, and all of that sort of thinking. 767 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,120 Oh, yeah. I mean, AI is going to be a 768 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,200 huge, you know, we already have those ethical questions of how 769 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,040 much of it is the designer, how much of it is the machine, 770 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,000 Where's the line? There's a lot of Gray, Gray 771 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,600 issues to uncover there that I'll be very curious to see how 772 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,840 we navigate that. So a couple years ago, you know, 773 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,160 when MSU had that horrible shooting on their campus, the, I 774 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,520 think it was the Provost sent out a memorial message and it 775 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,720 turned out to be generated by AI. 776 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,880 And so it really raised a question of people were 777 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,760 offended, significantly offended. 778 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,400 And I completely understand it that how could AI be used to 779 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,280 generate this very personal and very tragic thing. 780 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,440 But it does ask the question, is it do the words not matter 781 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,480 because of the mechanism or the context from where it came from? 782 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,880 And so I think those are going to be some interesting 783 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,520 conversations that we have going forward about the meaning of the 784 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,240 author, the meaning of the creator in these spaces, and 785 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,960 what their intentions are as people use these particular 786 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,320 modalities. Totally, yeah. 787 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,520 And I feel like the shade of Gray there is like there's one 788 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,400 thing on the extreme end to just like go to ChatGPT and say like 789 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,040 generate a condolence message, right? 790 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,680 And copy and paste that and reply all. 791 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,520 But there's some real life examples like I teach at the 792 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:55,800 School of Visual Arts in New York. 793 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,040 The master's program I teach in has like a majority of the 794 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,280 students are international and they don't speak English as a 795 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:03,920 first language or native language. 796 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,800 And so we all get access to Grammarly on our college 797 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,560 accounts for Gmail and Google Docs and all of that. 798 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,880 So the students use that and. You've been using spell check 799 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,960 for decades and so in some ways that is already in a machine 800 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,360 assisted thing. It's not writing their papers 801 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,120 for them, but it is helping them with suggestions. 802 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,960 So there is AI in the mix there, but that's a very different 803 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,920 application than just like writing your whole paper using 804 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,240 Jet GPT where's. That little Gray line. 805 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,120 Totally. I also want to learn more about 806 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,960 your PhD. So you mentioned you're doing 807 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,560 this PhD in higher education, focusing on design leaders. 808 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,000 I know this is still in progress, so you're probably 809 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,960 making sense of your data and your research there, but any 810 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,640 previews of your findings so far that you could share with us? 811 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,880 I think what are the observations, but it was 812 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,400 something I, I already knew going in, but I'm being 813 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,880 reaffirmed is the lack of high level administrators in higher 814 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,440 education. And I find that really 815 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,320 interesting because just like the MF as the new MBA, all those 816 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,920 things that we've seen happen in corporate America where people 817 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,440 are more interested in MF as in their C level or high level 818 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,160 spaces. That's not really happening in 819 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,560 higher education, although higher education is paying much 820 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,040 more attention to design and design thinking. 821 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,000 And so we have, especially my institution, we have a life 822 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,120 design program that all of our freshmen are enrolled into their 823 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,680 very first year as they study here. 824 00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:35,120 We have a president that's very interested in design thinking. 825 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,800 And my observation is like, yeah, but you don't have any 826 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,760 designers. They're actually leading that 827 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,640 space. And so there becomes this 828 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,840 assumption that, well, if you just take this design thinking 829 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,880 workshop from Stanford, like you're good to go, which 830 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,360 certainly then undervalues the level of years I've spent 831 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,880 studying design and the many other people that have spent 832 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,960 studying design. And so in my research, you know, 833 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,560 I'm wanting to talk to higher education administrators that 834 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,960 have a visual design background and how they navigate those 835 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,200 spaces. How does that visual 836 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,720 understanding work in that space? 837 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,320 But what I'm already finding, right, is that there's a lack of 838 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,960 people. So most of the, the biggest 839 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,080 level that I can find are associate Deans, which certainly 840 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,880 have great power, but also very limited power. 841 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,000 So trying to find a Provost, a Dean, a president, those are 842 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,080 much harder. And part of it is because of 843 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,160 this academic glass ceiling that when those positions are 844 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,280 advertised, you have to have an EDD or a PhD. 845 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,880 And sometimes they'll say terminal degree, but often 846 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,720 they'll just say qualifications for a Dean is EDD or PhD. 847 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,880 And most graphic design educators, the MFA is, is our 848 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,960 terminal degree. So there's the space where we 849 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,040 can't even get into those areas. And I'm just very curious about, 850 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,080 well, what if you did have graphic designers up in those 851 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,560 spaces? And then there's also a portion 852 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:03,920 in academia in design education about maybe we do need PhDs and, 853 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,800 and we do need PhD studies and we do need to study ourselves 854 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,600 and we do need to understand traditional research, which is 855 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,480 certainly a big mechanism that I'm learning. 856 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,880 But to do that, we have to have people that have PhDs to do 857 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,760 those programs. And so that's. 858 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,680 Yeah, it's a chicken or egg problem there, right? 859 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:24,000 Exactly. So it's driven my curiosity 860 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,200 about like, what is it that I'm missing from that traditional 861 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,920 PhD study line? I've I've learned a lot, but 862 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,760 also like how is design and design thinkers going to 863 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,920 infiltrate higher Ed and higher Ed is under extreme pressure 864 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,280 about what is the value of higher education? 865 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,640 And yes, like some of that can be solved from a marketing, you 866 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,960 know, standpoint, but there's like deep structural things that 867 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,960 need to happen there. And I think a designer, a really 868 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,160 good designer understands that, right, that it's not just making 869 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,160 a great brochure or great website that just says these 870 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,040 words there. There's actions and things that 871 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,240 we have to do to make that happen. 872 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:02,040 So. Totally. 873 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,280 Yeah, it's not just about as you say that marketing layer putting 874 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,440 lipstick on a hog. It's really, we could use our 875 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,720 skills to say visualize systems or facilitate strategic 876 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:14,400 conversations, all of these other things that are maybe 877 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,920 below the the surface on the iceberg. 878 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,720 As I'm mixing metaphors here. You know, we've been talking 879 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,840 about learning a lot because this is a big theme of who you 880 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,360 are, Jen. But there's a question that we 881 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,360 like to ask all of our guests here on the AIG Design podcast, 882 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,240 which is what is something that you've learned recently could be 883 00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,760 a fact, a skill, an insight. It could be something you've 884 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,840 learned as part of your PhD program or just in your daily 885 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,040 life, teaching your students or outside of design. 886 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,040 This is, I guess, more of an insight that I learned from a 887 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,720 colleague here at BGSU in our Diversity and Belonging office, 888 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,240 Katie Cycles. And, you know, I'm always coming 889 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,200 up with ideas and my colleagues coming up with ideas. 890 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,360 And she took a pause and she, you know, as we're thinking 891 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,920 about something and she said, you know, I recently had someone 892 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,480 tell me, and I want to share this with you. 893 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,280 And she said a yes to something is a no to something else. 894 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,280 And that was like really great words that I need to hear on 895 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,040 many different levels. Part of it from, you know, you 896 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,360 can see I'm a very active, busy person, so I need to be mindful 897 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,200 of time management. But the more important side is 898 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,200 the things I'm saying yes to or the project is saying yes to, 899 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,280 what is it saying no to? And I think that relates to any 900 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,320 kind of harm or impact that it might have is like a residual 901 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,680 effect of like, yes, we should do this. 902 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,920 And so it's just made me be much more. 903 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,240 I thought it was pretty reflective. 904 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,320 It was just another layer of like I thought I was being good 905 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,960 about like, hey, don't go into community and just think you 906 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,680 made it awesome and then walk away. 907 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,600 I think that's always been at a core of what I value. 908 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,880 But even just from the beginning of saying yes, like what is on 909 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,640 the table of what I'm I'm not allowing to have happen. 910 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,280 So that's probably a recent insight that I've been excited 911 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:03,960 about. Yeah, it's like every design 912 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,400 choice has a trade off, right? With the that yes also comes 913 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,200 these implied no's since our our time and attention is finite. 914 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,160 Yeah, exactly. So Jen, I've really enjoyed our 915 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,040 conversation together for our listeners. 916 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,800 You can learn more about Jen and connect with her work at 917 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,840 sisudesign.com. Again, that's Sisu, design.com. 918 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,560 John, to take us out. Do you have any final words or 919 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,640 advice that you'd like to give to our listeners about community 920 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,720 engagement or using design to better our society? 921 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:36,240 Whatever you'd like to take us out. 922 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,760 Yeah, so I guess my mantra, I share this with lots of people, 923 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,280 start small but think big. I think we all want to save the 924 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,240 world. We all want to do really, really 925 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,120 big impactful things. But things happen through 926 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,080 cultural shift and cultural change. 927 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,200 And so yes, there are big flash bang things that make change 928 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,640 happen great, you know, but there's also things that have to 929 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,200 happen incrementally and why not be part of that incremental 930 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,760 space change? And so one of the examples I 931 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,960 give is recycling when I was younger, you know, child of the 932 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,680 70s, and to recycle like pop cans and different things. 933 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,720 You have the neighbor that like had a bag of pop cans in his 934 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,560 garage and he would take it to the recycling center, but nobody 935 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,080 else pretty much did it. And there's been a cultural 936 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,240 shift over the last number of years. 937 00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:24,400 And you cannot walk into a single building in my 938 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,920 institution or many other places without seeing a recycling bin. 939 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,760 And to see someone throw a pop can right into a garbage can is 940 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,400 Oh my goodness, you know, and, and so I see those as being 941 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,640 small cultural changes. It's hard. 942 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,360 We want change to happen quickly. 943 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,640 And yes, we want to happen quickly, but I just want to make 944 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,520 sure it happens. And so to make it happen, 945 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,800 there's got to be some some action. 946 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,040 And I guess I share that because I think people get overwhelmed. 947 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,280 They don't enter into the space at all because they can't fix 948 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,520 the big thing. It's the star small. 949 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,560 Thank you for that advice and for our conversation. 950 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,440 Jen Stucker, it's great having you on the AIG Design Podcast. 951 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,800 And to our listeners, thank you for listening. 952 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,640 See you at the next episode. I'm Lee Shawn Huang. 953 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:09,400 Until next time.