If you're not a great listener as a designer, you're probably
not going to succeed in this business.
You have to listen for sure. The first place is probably a
well-developed brief, right? You don't do anything like that.
Listening. Hello?
And welcome to design, adjacent the podcast that talks about the
Nexus of design both today. And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben
EF Johnson and today, our guest is truly special.
Her brand is all about Out babies young children and
growing up our guest today is none other than Chief brand
officer and chief creative director for munchkin Diana
Barnes known as DB DB began a career at munchkin, the global
leader, in children's feeding and care products.
In 2014, she oversees Global brand Partnerships and manages
public relations, social media, and brand design teams
worldwide, under dbe's leadership much.
It's brand design. Team has won over 80 top
International Awards including two of the highly coveted red
towards a passionate advocate for trees animals in the
environment. D be created in leads.
All of munchkins corporate social responsibility
initiatives, including Partnerships with the well
Sanctuary project trees for the future and the international
fund for Animal Welfare. Before, joining munchkin, DB
served as Global director of brand, designed for Dell in.
This key role, she led Global teams from Austin and India, and
China prior to that her career began in music and entertainment
holding creative leadership positions at Sony and BMI.
So from design to Brand to impacting our world.
I'd like to welcome DB to our podcast today.
Welcome. Hi Benny.
How are you doing? I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to have
you join us. We had a mutual friend, who
mentioned when we talked that you absolutely loved as I.
And it's a powerful way to be introduced by colleagues for a
love of his eye. I'd love to start off by telling
a little bit. How what?
Drew you into design? How did you start?
Well, I was well on my way to being an attorney actually.
So it was a bend in the road. I always thought I would be.
Be an attorney and I at the time was married to a photographer
and he was attending art center and he seemed to be having a lot
more fun and I was far more interested in what he was doing
the what I was doing really. It was just opportunity came
along and I accepted a job at a music label and worked my way up
that way I was completely untrained and really didn't go
back and get my design degree from our Center until I was well
into my third. Not already been a creative
director. So sort of came in, through the
back door, which is kind of the pathology of my career actually
talked a bit about that, excitement to come and getting a
job in the entertainment industry and through pursuing,
this more exciting approach than studying.
The law in design that describe your feeling.
I had a like you're working in design but you decided to go
back and continue your formal education.
What really drove you to that? Well, my degree, my first
degree. My first batch was, is it?
In English. And so, I'm a passionate lover
of the written word and I think that it the natural inclination
for me was to move along to learn how to really support that
and bring that to life. So bringing stories to life was
to me, just a natural progression.
But like I said, it already been a creative director at a record
company and it was a wonderful time in the 90s where I was
living in Nashville and people started hinting that I might
want to know a little bit about the Web, the web was going to be
the next big thing, and I might want to know digital.
So I had fortunately saved enough in my career to take a
break. And I went to Art Center and
aren't another degree and BFA, and design and graphic design
and packaging and went back. I think after that, after I
graduated, it was The.com. Craze you could pretty much name
your job in this industry. It was a golden time, and I
ended up working for a firm and eventually went back to music to
In some previous colleagues and things had changed a lot in the
music industry at that point. So yes, I think my career has
always been a jungle gym of In-House and then jumping over
to learn more and agency or design firm life, and then
coming back in to see this through line of Storytelling
from your experience in English as an English.
Major to be involved in music and then on to design and brand.
What is the role of Storytelling that well back before?
The term branding was a thing. We were really branding for
artists and music and so many ways, not only by the genre of
music by the message of the album.
And then when you break down an album, each song is its own
story. And so your job is to really
translate all of those stories and how to capture that in so
many, maybe just one primary visual actually, the album cover
and then, how does that translate into the videos and
all of the other marketing components.
And so, when I was recruited to lead the team at Dell, L a tech
company. It was really to infuse this
entertainment value and emotional connection when detect
which is ostensibly a black box. So really it was easier for me
because I just applied that same skill.
All of those stories for every human.
All of us are really captive in our own computers to a large
degree. When you think about it, they
are photos or correspondence or bookmarks.
So my point of view is my whole life is in that thing for Dell
for the actual computer itself. Don't draw the emotional
connection to the actual thing. Draw, the actual story.
Not the enormity of the responsibility of everything
that's in it, your whole life, to how to use it, the
responsibility to recover it. So that was an easy translation
for me and then the human connectivity comes from what's
in there. And that much can it was very
different munchkin was really about telling and untold story.
When I arrived there in 2014, it was a B2B or as our CEO often
described it. We were targets largest supplier
and trying to move away from that narrative and Eating a
Lifestyle brand was really my goal from the beginning long
before they knew they were going to become a Lifestyle brand.
So it was really just about reframing, how we spoke about
the company and that kind of began with are creating our new
mission statement. We are on a mission to become
the world's most loved baby Lifestyle brand, but really we
knew if we were going to be regarded, as the most loved we
were hitting the mark. They left our products, they
loved our purpose, so they love the brand and then we broke it
down and did the Tactical branding that.
Process, which was the first piece was making sure that we
shot her own lifestyle, photos versus stock and updating fonts
and templates and then the experiential and then really
creating the CSR. I think referencing the company
and it's true for munchkin. It's really a design company.
First has really helped us and how we frame up our
storytelling. Everything with you need to know
about munchkin is really all in house, everything occurs in
house, all of our product design, our brand design, we We
do everything ourselves. That's why we have over 300
patents. When we look under the hood, if
you will engage in my skin, is that you don't just say your
Innovative modern incredible. You actually back it up with
over 307, patents with the work. You're doing your powered by
Innovation design to make parents lives easier and more
enjoyable and your pyre bus into the City and design is always
the space, that you can see that this love.
And this moment thinking of in pulling from your site.
Right now, the little things we think about Laughter, where did
you doing in there? So you come in you move from
being a B2B company, right? Move from being the back in
supplier to. Now you're talking directly to
Consumers and talking about engaging in making babies happy
now. The fun part is babies don't
really have credit cards. Talk a bit about how you go from
engaging companies. To exciting parents seeing the
joy in their kids through the products that you are able to
deliver. We've never positioned ourselves
as talking to babies, and I do that.
We're talking to the parents and for the babies happy experience
and the mom's, right? That's really what we're all
about. I think that we are different
and we're number one and so many categories because we engage in
honest, dialogue with them. And the first place we start is
reviews, we read all of our reviews and we do just look at
sales figures. Those are really relying on how
deeply connected you are to your community.
And we do this in a number of ways of first way.
We read the reviews. Religiously.
And a lot of our product Innovation is derived from what
they're telling us that they want or don't want and what they
have of ours that they love or maybe don't love.
And that's the first place we start.
The second place is obviously our social platform.
We are very different in that, we do not buy followers so that
we can continue that honest dialogue.
And a lot of Brands feel like it's best to sort of look like
you're engaging in or you have high engagement from your
consumers by buying followers, we don't do that.
That's really important. And then also, we've extended
our relationship with our parents into our own podcast.
We will be starting our third season of stroller coaster, a
parenting podcasts very soon. So, a number of ways.
It's really powerful. In my, you know, my joke about
the babies with credit cards, really powerful.
In the sense that you centered, the brand on that love
relationship between parent and child.
And so, you see the parents looking towards that validation,
that engagement that they have with what's most precious to
them. Children in seeing your products
and your Solutions as a part of that experience.
It's really powerfully reinforced.
When I look at the work that you've been doing to keep people
moving forward, you can see how there's so much love for the
brand and the offerings, we what a worthy consumer, right?
You know, brand new life, we're creating these things for brand
new life. And I always try to keep that
front and center. It's the most worthy consumer
law. It's really powerful to look at
what you've been able to do. And then the For the
storytelling and the unlimited possibilities that we see the
brand. What's also I find interesting
for you is that you grew up through design and now you
occupy a position in leadership, that your title is unique.
In the sense that you are both the chief brand officer and the
creative director. Why was it important for you to
have that distinction as holding onto the creative director
title, and the chief brand officer title?
I think that's a really powerful placement to call them out.
Out in that way. Well, you're right, I still do,
but if I'm equal parts, although I'm not doing as much Hands-On
design anymore, I do work with my designers every day, but to
answer your question, I guess the question is, why am I in
both? I feel like you really can't be
regarded as a design expert if you're not doing it right every
day if you're not keeping your feet.
And so I try to stay with my hands and feet, always firmly
planted in that Foundation. We're also really can't be
regarded as a leader and so that's important.
The CBO title is for me, it wasn't that much different than
what I was doing before, except for the now, I'm responsible for
components, like, improving or increased our International
Business by 50%, so that means Biz Dev.
It means bringing in new retailers like car for from
France. That was so important and so
exciting to learn a new skill like that.
And I think that c-suite position really just provides
access to do, what I really love most, which is learning new
things. New Cultures new ways to reach
our audience. Now it's just as interesting to
me to work on winning any retail chain of business, as it is to
Rebrand something, but I'll never be as interested in
working on margins as I am and every grand for sure.
Definitely those moments. But I asked that question.
And I love your response and answer because I think it's
really powerful that in your role, even outside of the
titles, right? In your role, you can see how
your wrapping and layering design leadership, along with
the adjacent. To business that are important
brand from a management standpoint, Global engagement,
Corporate social responsibility, which are all wrapped in.
So you're not just having a seat at the table, you're an active
part of it. Sometimes it's the simple
visuals. That say, a lot for us and I
know when I'm on your site and it says leaders, what's really
incredible and encouraging and Powerful is DB you as the chief
brand officer. Creative director.
You're on the first line with the journal manager, CEO, and
CFO clell. Well, and that's really powerful
as we think about organizations that are designed driven going
forward, your organization isn't just saying it, you're
represented in the executive hierarchy as a part of that core
leadership which I think is really powerful.
Well, thank you. Thank you.
Yes. Yes.
I reporting to the CEO and the CEO.
I am currently the only female in the c-suite, although I think
we're getting ready to change that.
Yep, it's interesting. You bring up, let's talk a bit
about that. We did a body of research.
This past year, our design POV, and one of the As we looked at
leadership and looked at the composition of the field and we
saw a field that had women in various stages of the leadership
with representation that you would expect, but we still see
the greatest Gap in the CVP and executive level.
We're in design, still mostly men and still mostly older.
Men in those Chief, branch chief, creative director roles,
talk a bit about your experience and your hopes for diversity in
the c-suite from designers. Well, fortunately today mentions
employee base, is more than half female in our board of
directors, is almost half female.
But as I said, from a perspective, I'm the only female
in the c-suite, but we're really getting close to changing that.
It's no secret that in my prior Industries, music and
entertainment as well as Tech. They're predominantly male.
At least at the time I was Rising through the ranks and
probably still are and in my career began in the South so
that was even more limiting for females.
And with that said, I learned a lot but I probably haven't
changed that much. I just changed my processes.
Work around those realities but also embrace them eventually
unfortunately, in a place in the company and in my career where I
can be the change, I want to see for women so I've implemented
Global Leadership group. Our first year G that meets
quarterly III which stands for embracing power and enjoy.
I am also a strong advocate for female leaders in a group that
was invited to join called Chief, which is primarily only
at the c-suites. This country female To See
Sweets and I'm also on The Fast Company.
Bored. So I do a lot of work around.
How do we bring female leadership along then only just
in my daily job that these other organizations and communities
and structures, just like organizations like Fast Company
in terms of design, the design field or the design rules, I
think it varies depending on if you're in house or if you're in
an ad agency or the small design firm.
But I do think that work was successful because I wasn't
afraid to dig in and really analyze the processes that Port
design in an organization and really fair it out.
How do we build processes from the very beginning is just
station of a project all the way through shelf life and make sure
that product development gives us the time we need and finance
gives us the time. We need in the supply chain has
the time built into really create the best design in an
organization and once you really learned that piece of it, the
framework, then great design can happen.
Well, I love in our earlier conversation, you mentioned,
there's no No mistake that your data driven, right?
I am and for sure that's definitely attribute that to my
time at do. They are definitely data-driven
and I'm so grateful. That was a huge piece of what
I've learned their the importance and the value of data
and how to analyze it. And how to infuse it in your
design process. Now, we always think about
design as being the mechanism and risk, we solve problems,
right? But really being a mechanism
which we saw problems. With humans at the heart.
And so I think it's really nice that and great alignment that
you're in charge of branding design, but you also lead your
company's Corporate social responsibility space, right?
Really is the touch of human. How did that creation come about
for you leading design and the opportunity for this company to
show up in the world? What excited you to take on that
responsibility? I feel like it is a
responsibility when you are in a leadership position at a
company. Any, I feel like it's
everybody's responsibility, actually from top down.
You need to figure out a way to offset, whatever harm you're
doing in the world in terms of your Global footprint, that's
your responsibility. So when I started setting up CSR
at munchkin and the first pillar was really Animal Welfare.
That part was easy for me. Anyway, that piece of it came
very naturally because our CEO is very concerned about
Blackfish had seen that movie and then that kind of net led us
into really learning more. About orcas.
And then all of this work that we're doing around the whale
Sanctuary project, you can read about it, on our website, came
organically, and we actually had an orca in our most successful
product line of back my called sea.
Squirts, and it was performing really well and always has.
So he took that out are Co just said, yeah I'm not going to
support this. An orca really doesn't belong in
a bathtub which was really an analogy, more for SeaWorld and
places like that that or human entertainment.
Use animal for profit. So, So we took that out and I
can't tell you almost overnight with the messaging from TMZ and
Peeta that we got great feedback and lots of exposure as well as
offering a million dollars. For one of the whales that was
being held captive. I mean, there were a lot of
initiatives that we didn't put into play, but that media caught
on, so that kind of led into other avenues.
Like I fought and things that we were naturally interested in as
a part of teaching children empathy, really starts with
animals. So that was very organic for me.
I'm a Huge animal rights activists.
So it wasn't that much of a stretch for me, but then we went
into other pillars of CSR that were definitely more, natural
sustainability, of course, and then education with radiant
colors. And lots of times.
These opportunities just pop up, they present themselves in.
It's up to you to embrace it and figure out how you're going to
initiate a program in your company that can support.
That. What advice do you have for
leaders? When you're looking for a proper
partner in the space, the Partnerships sometimes you
capture. Sure the lightning in the bottle
with the Partnerships and other times.
You kind of struggle in this space.
What advice do you have for? If you're a brand or your design
leading you're looking for a good partner.
Well, probably infusing the product in some way with the
philanthropy is the best because obviously you're in a company
need for growth and so gross can come in any number of ways.
And so for instance, the iPhone initiative that we have their
National Conference and we'll all pair, we have our number one
category, which is kept And so it just seemed natural to try to
infuse those two at least when I was thinking about this.
And so I would tell designers to look at ways that things that
are important are should be important to companies and to
people in general to human beings.
If there's a way to infuse it with a partnership in your
company, that makes sense because obviously you're going
to have to go and present A business plan for this no matter
what, no matter if it's just a cost or if it's actually a
stream of Revenue that you can create, you have to know how to
formulate. Write a business plan.
How does the company get a bit of that house?
The earth going to benefit, you have to have those very well
thought through. I have a question for you since
we're talking about data and is extension to metrics and
measurement, you know, when I look at the goal of much of
these, the mission, to be the world's most loved baby,
Lifestyle brand. Right?
How do you today capture a quantify?
What it means to be loved for your brand?
That's such a great question. I always love answering that,
and I do go back. Be honest dialogue that.
We are having with our consumers daily, we know what they're
thinking, they're very vocal, they don't hold back.
So I think listening if you're not a great listener as a
designer, you're probably not going to succeed in this
business. You have to listen for sure.
The first place is probably a well-developed brief, right?
You don't do anything with that listening.
So in order to be the most loved baby Lifestyle brand, which is
always going to be a goal that we probably never, there's
probably no true capabilities. API for that.
I mean you can be number one which we are.
This is sustaining the number one position that we are and all
of these categories. No, because we run like, you
know, a shampoo brand or a deodorant brand, that you were
loyal consumer of your whole life.
Parents are always cycling in and out of our brand, once their
children age out at age five or six, so we're in constant motion
with this, which is why we've worded it.
We're on a mission because we know we can never stop because
baby, Being born every day and they're coming in and out of our
grant, if that makes sense. No it makes a lot of sense.
What do you see a lot of pass through in terms of Word of
Mouth in terms of parent? Handoff it's been such a great
brand honey and now I'm going to pass it on to my brother or my
sister who has kids. I think that Munchkin because
we've been around for 30 years, it is top of mind for a lot of
reasons, obviously incredibly beautifully designed durable
products, but also now we know from data that parents do not
engage Age with Brands is easily anymore based off of well my mom
always used. It's really what is that brand
doing for the world Beyond making a profit which is why our
CSR story. So important and integral to who
we are and how we present ourselves it really is and you
can see it it's and I love it. Centered around your role.
It's equally talks about design in your fort looking space, but
it's your insights, your mission and the good work you're doing,
you can see it's always reinforced when I look At the
brand, I'll ask this question because this is, this is a fun
question that you're not supposed to answer, right?
You're not supposed to pick favorites.
What's been your most surprisingly favorite product
since you've been there with the product that makes you smile?
Yes, I think everybody in the company knows.
I'm not, I'm not sure. I think I love our NightLight.
It's an owl night light, and I just love the design.
So comforting, I actually have it in my room.
It's a little owl, and of course, it's an animal, which
makes me love it more. But it's why did?
Orange and blue. And it's beautifully lit.
And it's just really warm and comforting and kids love it.
And parents are fine with it in their and their guest rooms and
around the house. It's sort of the Swedish Danish
origin and its Timeless and never goes out of style.
So I that's my favorite product. That's awesome.
Is this the light my way? NightLight is this the one?
Yes. Kid, for those who are
listening. This is probably the most
adorable night, like you will ever see.
Wow. I love hearing that, this is
awesome as a company. You've been around for 30 years.
Do you ever have conversations with the smaller children, who
are now larger children turn adults, who have an experience
with munchkin things? They remember from their
childhood. I have not had that conversation
yet. What an amazing little tidbit of
Peter work. You just gave me.
I love that. It's great idea to be helpful
but I think about it. You said it hit me when you said
you've been around for 30 years. Like that's enough time for
those two cycle. We all have these Murray's of
our childhood. And I wonder how much munchkin
is a part of those memories? Well, there's my next campaign.
Thank you. Thanks so much.
You just did my heavy lifting for me anytime.
So when I'm not podcasting, I get to have a flashback to my
marketing and brand days. This is what I think about your
role. What do you get excited about?
Or what do you get optimistic about?
When you think about the future of, not just munchkin, but the
future of design and design as a leading part of What do you see
today? That makes you excited.
I have to unpack that question that there was there, a multi
multi pieces and answers for that question.
I love how many ways a designer can manifest everything.
We know in our grade, add in this role, you know, in a CBO
were all or for me, there's so many different ways to grow and
expand this when I was starting out a designer, I never for once
in my wildest dreams thought, oh, one point in my career I
will Be redesigning an entire Lobby and all the conference
rooms for my corporation. That is something that is
completely doable. Intangible for designers.
Today, there are a lot of different ways to grow your
skills, and as long as you're interested in, you show a skill
set, this field, graphic design, packaging world that I went into
is now, so many multi layers. You can be a social media
expert, you can be the digital expert.
You can make sure that your They'll maybe more on the
traditional side of editorial, there's so many Avenues and ways
to bring design to life. I'm very excited about it and
I'm excited that this thank God for Steve Jobs of the world,
right? Where design really no longer
has to be in gendered as a value.
And most companies you know I spent a lot of my career trying
to engender design as a value and show how that actually does
have a huge impact on Roi, right?
Right. It's so true.
And we wanted The first areas that came out in our research,
this past year was looking at having measurable data to show
how companies that were actively leading with design as a
strategy mindset, as an operational mindset as a driver
in their organizations. Were outperforming those who
didn't and it was clear every level of accompanying
organization. And I think that that's
something to your words that we offer advice to those entering
the field to know that there are no limits and only
opportunities. Being designed ripping.
Yes, I actually try to give advice to students and emerging
designers and by saying, my advice is to read just read more
than your feeds read novels. So the first place to start that
really teaches you your I love I love that against say that again
for us TV, read more than you read more than your feeds.
I say that to my designers every day, read a novel that teaches
you character development that teaches you how to build
emotional connectivity and empathy.
And you know, the more you understand, appreciate Language
and had a verbally articulate, your thoughts.
The easier it is to learn how to build a framework for the design
is supported. And I find that it's harder for
designers to read these days and are just used to scrolling and
taken in a very few lines of text.
So sometimes when I get that back in copy, I'm like what what
is this? This is not descriptive.
This isn't a telling me anything that I need to know about this
product. And why do I care about this?
So read my advice is to really read more.
I think it's incredibly important advice for everyone to
kind of Read beyond the spaces and I think about your path
again. Coming from the English major
but been going into music and having the opportunity where we
see some of the best storytelling in nature and
structure of songs. A great song is always a great
story. So I am really grateful that I
started out my career in music really.
It was so important to me to really understand how to build
emotional connectivity. There's nothing better To do
that. Then a songwriter and music.
When do you get a chance? You mentioned this before?
And I've talked to Studio leads and other cheek design offices
and they talk about the growing up in the business and the
leadership. But leaving some of the Hands-On
creative work that they've done before and you mentioned that
you still get a chance to be involvement, what was the last
thing? You had a chance to roll up your
sleeves and and touch as a Creative Design through this
every day though, been a saint. Might be an outlier here.
Okay. That's that's a good chair
along. I was obviously, you know,
formally trained at Art Center and the best part about that for
me and also the scariest part was the daily crib, you are
putting your work up in front of your peers for feedback and that
could be painful. It was certainly painful for me
but also the best way to grow and so I do that almost every
day with my design team. I want to see where you are.
Let's all talk together about. Is this meeting that goal?
And if you don't have that open, I log in you're not processing
every single day. I mean, I'm always growing with
them and I can't imagine titling out of that.
If that makes any sense, I don't know.
My worth to accompany my value to a company is not only
bringing a heartbeat but it is using everything.
I've known through training and lots of experience, and lots of
definitely mistakes along the way.
It's engendering that butts imparting that on feature
designers, and I would not give that That part out because I'm
not going to be the greatest value to a company unless I am
utilizing that and oh wait and to answer your questions but I
think the last piece I touched, I think it was yesterday on a
social media. Post that I was having
difficulty with sort of working through and seeing here, this is
kind of how I see it every thought about this composition
and please eliminate these Stars, I don't know what it is.
The designers I'm working with. Now, they're all sort of
fascinated with putting stars all over everything, so yeah.
Like, what is this fascination with stars?
I put my hands over things. Go look how much better that
looks without that. What is the purpose?
You know. So everything has to have a
purpose on the page. That's a wonderful story that
was spot-on. I just wanted to get a chance to
share kind of coming back to that experience, right?
Because we spend our time in, we talked about you at the sea
level, but there's still a part of being there with your team
and being a part of the creative process that I think it's
important that you don't lose. And that's a wonderful example.
Thank you, I will know. I will not send you anything.
Thing with stars, my friend. You're funny Vinny but as we
kind of look ahead and you've given some great advice before,
what advice do you have two designers who are just coming in
the field today? You lead teams that have these
larger agenda than ideas and programs that can be kind of
daunting. If you come in as a new
designer, what advice would you have for someone?
Listen, learn how to listen, and also ask a lot of questions,
like I said, the pathology of my career has been the question.
Why and ask if you don't know something, if you're not clear,
On your corporate goals if you're not clear on the goals of
your leader that's leading. If that's your our direct your
creative director, whoever that is you really need to know those
goals. And then you sort of build your
framework for Success around that your job is really to you
have a lot of different jobs as a designer but the first job of
any employee is really to make sure that the department is
succeeding, whether that's winning Awards, which I'm a True
Believer and to make sure that you're checking your making sure
you're not just trying Can you yourself that your colleagues
and your peers in the industry? Also, acknowledge that what
you're doing is good? But I feel like designers to
some of the unfortunately, not in my department or not in my
company. But what I've seen is and what
I've been hearing is just, like I said, people are used to
speeds and feeds, and so learning how to create design
that's Timeless, rather than trendy, and really understanding
your purpose, and your all, and your value.
And what it is that you are hired to do.
I would always get Rarity around that.
Well, I think that's incredible advice as we start and it's hard
to believe that we're at the end of our conversation, but I
really DB feel like it's truly a beginning.
And you've given the advice to find a good novel and read, find
a good song in wrap yourself in it and always be open to
listening kind of what I take away from.
Stop our secrets of being an incredible designer.
Great. I'm glad those are the key
takeaways for sure. I couldn't have a better
summation, so thank you, honey. Sharing the experience and
really your role as a leader and in modeling, what it means to be
able to combine your true design adjacency and even more
combining design, as practice, as we push in aiga design as a
strategic advantage and design as positive Catalyst.
When I think about your role, as Chief brand officer, creative
director, and head of CSR, you were really the living
embodiment of what we're pushing for.
Car for aiga. So I thank you for the work
you're doing and your leadership in the industry and being a
guest today with me on design adjacent, it's been a pleasure
and we run it definitely talk more.
Thank you, Benny. It's been a true pleasure.
I appreciate it. Like I said, it's so interesting
to come full circle for my first AIG membership card to now being
a guest, I'm really honored and thrilled.
Thank you. I am delighted to have you as a
part a leader in our community and thank you for joining us and
thank you all for Listening today on our podcast design
adjacent where we talked about and explore the power and impact
of design both today. And tomorrow, I'm your host PDF
Johnson, and this is been our podcast with DB.
Thank you show notes for this episode will be available on AIG
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My name is Li Xian zhuang until next time.