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Even in Stephen sondheim's 
passing. 

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Remember going to a shoot with 
him in thinking, like, I can't 

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believe I'm standing here. 
Like this is crazy. 

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And there's so many stories like
that, you know, whatever you're 

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doing. 
It just sort of becomes part of 

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your day-to-day. 
The year that rolling sounds 

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like as it is what I do. 
You not thinking about, but 

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then, when you look back, you 
like welfare was a really cool 

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part of my life, wasn't it? 
Hello, and welcome to design 

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adjacent the podcast that 
explores the Nexus of design, 

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though. 
Both today and tomorrow. 

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I'm your host, Ben EF Johnson. 
And today, our special guest is 

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none other than Gayle, Anderson 
scholar de scholar. 

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I laugh, but it's so true cheer 
BFA designed in advertising and 

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SBA and has been director of the
Visual Arts. 

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Press. 
She has served as art director 

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for Rolling Stone, creative 
director, and designer. 

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Boston, Globe, Sunday magazine, 
in vintage books. 

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She started at VA and really 
shaped young and emerging Minds 

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for the last 30 years. 
She's a foster kid looks 15, 

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books makes you a scholar. 
My bread on design, typography 

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and illustration with the great 
Steven Hiller as well. 

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That's a scholar, the it's-- The
Scholar. 

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Yeah. 
I will agree with you on that. 

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I'm just a sidekick. 
So you're so much more. 

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And as you'll see today, we're 
going to have a great fun 

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conversation Anderson, also 
served on the citizens stamp 

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advisory committee for the US 
Postal Service and the advisory 

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boards for poster house, in the 
one club for creativity. 

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She is a distinguish aiga 
medalist. 

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Yes, and a recipient of the 
cooper-hewitt smithsonian's 

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Lifetime Achievement Award for 
it. 

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Her work is represented in the 
Library of Congress in the 

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Milton Glaser archives and in 
the Smithsonian National Museum 

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of African American history and 
culture, the mocked. 

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I am glad to welcome Gail to our
podcast. 

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Welcome you thank you. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you for having me. 
It's a pleasure to be here. 

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Well, it's wonderful to be able 
to sit down and and have a 

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conversation about you, your 
work. 

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And about our thoughts on the 
future, as we think about design

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and its impact for our audience 
are listening. 

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I love to give a little bit 
about what first brought you to 

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design. 
I love to draw as a kid. 

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I loved spec and 16 magazines. 
I okay. 

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Love the Jackson 5 and made 
scrapbooks. 

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I have one here that's falling 
apart. 

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And there's one at the Museum in
d.c. 

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They didn't fall apart. 
My Michael Jackson scrapbook 

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verse, I loved making stuff. 
And my high school art teacher 

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told me about a school, SVA 
School of Visual Arts that she 

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was taking night classes, at at 
the time in silk screen and 

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click Rafi, and encouraged me to
pursue a career in design in 

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thanks to her, I did. 
And yeah, I just, I'd like to 

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making things and I Added to 
work at spec or 16 magazines, 

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right? 
Those with why I loved as a kid.

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And, of course, those weren't 
around anymore as an adult. 

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But ironically, when I worked at
Rolling Stone, it was at the 

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same address where those 
magazines. 

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Wow, been 7:45. 
Fifth Avenue. 

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When I start out to equate this 
address. 

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It's like it's the same address 
of spec and 16. 

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So my I come full circle so 
early in your career that seems 

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like there's this connection 
between design and music. 

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Definitely design entertainment 
in general. 

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But yeah, music, both bi music. 
But again, based on Elton John 

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and right, you know, all the 
stuff I liked is as a little 

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kid, The Partridge Family and 
The Osmond Brothers, but 

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definitely the Jackson 5 budget.
I'll ask you the question. 

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Who was your second favorite 
Jackson? 

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Well, it's easy to say Jermaine 
because that would make sense. 

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But I had a kind of had a thing 
for Marlon. 

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I didn't expect you to give me. 
Marlon Marlon. 

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Yeah, not Jackie. 
Not Tito Marlin. 

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Who is ended up being the most 
handsome of the Jacksons, so, 

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Who makes your he knows? 
Yeah, but please pass that on. 

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So pass it on. 
So, one of the things that I'm 

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always curious about is we kind 
of go through our professional 

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journey, is what brings us to 
the interest, but then when was 

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the moment that you really felt 
to her designer, but who move 

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from kind of exploring the 
things you love to do to waking 

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up their day and saying, you 
know, I'm a designer when I 

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started working. 
At random house when I 

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graduated, when I would hang 
around Louisville. 

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He's office in the evening as 
she worked on designing wine 

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labels and write all of the 
fancy book covers that she did. 

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And really getting to know her 
there after work in the evening 

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and hearing about what she was 
working on, what she wanted to 

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do. 
That is like, this is really 

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cool. 
And I had amazing instructors. 

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I had price shares, my portfolio
teacher, and, and all these 

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Karen Goldberg, just all these 
great people, but it, In some 

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ways it was being in the first 
job right? 

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Sitting there and watching 
somebody is brilliant as sleaze 

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doing stuff and the people who 
work with her but really her was

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like, oh my goodness! 
You're going of amazing, aren't 

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you? 
So that's a long time ago. 

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That's 84 85. 
Yeah. 

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There's like this is what I do 
for a living like and maybe I 

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can be as good as her one day or
But at least we work for the 

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same company, we work down the 
hall from each other. 

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That's that seemed good enough 
for me. 

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So yeah, it's kind of that 
powerful moment of of being able

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to live and touch and engage 
with with those who you see. 

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I had a we were talking before 
about a friend of mine and 

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Professor, Floyd Coleman who 
taught art history of the 

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scholar. 
He would always talk about being

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able to pick your ancestors. 
In the take the people around 

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you, that influence how you 
think and and how you grow as a 

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professional and it sounds like 
having that space of being in 

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the room and having that input 
helped to shape your early 

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career, and who you grew into as
a designer absolutely. 

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Having having these tremendous 
mentors who were so patient, and

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wonderful and willing to invest 
the time in, in the designer who

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didn't have the technical skills
that certainly Lee some of my 

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other classmates had, I didn't 
have the amazing hand skills 

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when that was. 
Saying this, right? 

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Yeah, I'd learned to do a 
mechanical. 

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I learned to get good at stuff, 
but I had to learn to do that, 

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right? 
In ways that I think maybe 

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others it was it sort of came 
more naturally or or they were 

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able to intern when they were in
school. 

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Get a foot in the door, a little
quicker. 

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I worked at a nursing home when 
I was in school. 

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So I didn't didn't have the 
Glamorous in school experience 

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that others did because I 
couldn't afford to intern for 

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free, which was right was sort 
of the norm at the time. 

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So how did that experience shape
your own role as, as a teacher? 

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You can a thinking about, you 
know, your experience growing up

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and studying and working in a 
field in a profession that 

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wasn't directly aligned but How 
did that shape your view of what

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your students are going through 
over the years? 

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It certainly makes me root for 
the underdog more and it makes 

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me look at the people in the 
middle who need the extra 

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encouragement, right, and need 
the Boost, and need the extra 

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time. 
It's not like projecting myself 

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into every kid, I see. 
But I want to make sure that 

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those folks don't get left 
behind. 

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That they've got as many 
opportunities as the folks who 

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have a bit of an easier ride. 
So I think you know, one of the 

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things we talk a lot about is 
just the power and beauty of 

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design as a profession, but the 
ways in which we can all work to

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open the aperture a bit so that 
everyone has an opportunity to 

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participate in the profession. 
And it's interesting you 

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speaking about having a space 
for people to grow who may not. 

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Have the same path that's been 
laid out for them to be able to 

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grow, and find a space, and find
their way in design. 

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What, what advice do you give to
students? 

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Today that are thinking about 
jumping into the profession, but

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may not have come from an 
environment, in which, their 

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designers in their family, or to
the left or right of them. 

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When I meet families, now, meet 
parents at events. 

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It's My job to encourage them to
let their kid. 

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Pursue this path, right there 
are success stories, and I guess

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I'm kind of one of them that 
bright this works. 

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And it's all about working 
really hard in, it's not even 

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being the best. 
It's just being really committed

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rolling to help. 
Open to learning. 

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It's about about not giving up. 
It's about working hard and that

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if this is something, your child
really wants, right? 

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Go let them go for it. 
That it's not. 

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Like Commercial Art in the 70s 
when I was in high school or the

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early 80s and Associated, like, 
it was so little fuzzy. 

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Like, what do we do at the end 
of all this right now? 

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It's like you what your kid 
wants to do is really valued and

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there's a place for them and 
what they do is really necessary

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in, so let them go for it and 
they'll be okay, you know, they 

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won't be living with you forever
there, right? 

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Make money and get out of the 
house. 

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So, They're like, really, 
really? 

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She's really gonna leave. 
So maybe not right away, but 

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eventually so, but, you know, to
your point, that's so important 

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because, you know, many of the 
conversations I've had with 

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design leaders, and we think 
about our own individual pass. 

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There's always that moment with 
your family and, and convincing 

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them that you're doing something
that's different from what they 

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may have experienced and that 
you're going to be okay, having 

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that reinforcement, I think is 
powerful, especially when we 

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look at all. 
It is and you know, new 

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designers who are coming from 
communities and families that 

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design may not have been present
and that art may not have been 

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present. 
All looks absolutely, I was so 

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lucky that my folks were like, 
well this is what you want to 

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do. 
And so yeah, you think you'll 

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make money like map. 
I'd fix that one. 

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And I wanted to go to to art 
school and not regular four-year

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liberal arts school and they 
went along with it. 

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I was really lucky that. 
That it wasn't. 

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Well, we want you to do this 
first or right? 

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I think they were just happy we 
for my brother and sister and 

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00:11:39,908 --> 00:11:41,100
myself that we were going to 
college. 

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So I was like, okay, this is 
good enough. 

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This doesn't work yet, you know 
in the end. 

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Remember when I had my first job
the Random House job that was 

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making so little and my dad was 
like wait what if? 

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00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:57,600
So, he really will be here 
forever. 

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Like no. 
No, no, no, don't do it. 

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00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,300
Please have faith. 
Have faith in they did and I'm 

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so lucky they did. 
You think about your career and 

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the spaces you've been, in both 
for-profit, media education 

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nonprofit. 
What are some of the takeaways 

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you give for students of color 
coming in the same? 

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Hmm. 
Saying back down the same path. 

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Well, I never saw myself there. 
It was a very small pool of 

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talent. 
That was people of color when I 

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was in school. 
And I think times are changing 

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for the better on that front and
we're paying more attention. 

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And we need to get more 
Educators involved, more people 

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of color teaching, right? 
More designers saying, I'll take

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a few hours for Girl, come here 
in the evening and teach. 

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I want the students to see all 
kinds of people in the 

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classroom. 
And for a student of color, to 

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see a black instructor standing 
there, right? 

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Brown instructor, whatever it's 
really powerful, and I never 

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gave it any thought because I 
never expected it, right? 

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00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:17,100
Because it just wasn't at this 
like, okay. 

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00:13:17,100 --> 00:13:20,500
It's just, you know, it never 
occurred to me that there would 

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00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:23,200
be a black instructor standing 
there because they're There 

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00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,600
never were there. 
Weren't in high school, there, 

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weren't in grammar school, or 
so. 

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00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,500
Why would there be in college 
and black designer? 

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What? 
Right. 

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So now, students expect, better 
expect more and we have to, we 

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have to create these classrooms 
that that you're seeing all 

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kinds of representation, not 
just from the students, which 

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00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,500
were also working on, but from 
The Faculty, so if a faculty and

227
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:52,900
then yeah, I love impacts the 
points of view. 

228
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,600
In the work that we see, 
absolutely, he's coming in. 

229
00:13:56,900 --> 00:13:59,200
You know, it isn't it? 
A more interesting environment 

230
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,300
to be in an office or a school 
or whatever where you've got all

231
00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,300
different kinds of people, you 
know, certainly in the years 

232
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:09,900
that I've been around SVA and 
seeing the changes. 

233
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,900
I've met kids from all over the 
world and places and even heard 

234
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:20,900
of before, you know, and I love 
that my worldview is expanded. 

235
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,300
And I've met all these people my
Mm, and I, we constantly talk 

236
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,500
about this statement that great 
ideas come from everywhere. 

237
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,700
Yeah, and it's really kind of 
the way in which we show up in 

238
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the world and we approach our 
team members those in our 

239
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,800
community and around us and just
really refreshing. 

240
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,100
Stacy, say to look for the 
opportunity that great ideas, 

241
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:43,900
come from everywhere. 
Hmm. 

242
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,400
When the things that I've been 
really excited about for us in 

243
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,900
the past two years in the 
pandemic, is the expansion of 

244
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,600
Our Global engagement and 
membership at aiga. 

245
00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:59,200
Hmm. 
By doing podcasts or more 

246
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,000
virtual content. 
We've kind of opened up the 

247
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,600
barrier and I love when our 
conversation start up and we 

248
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see, hello. 
I'm shouting out from Israel. 

249
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I'm shouting out from drinking 
and I'm shouting out from South 

250
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,000
Africa. 
It's been incredibly refreshing 

251
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:21,000
because this moment has created 
opportunity and I mean, I was up

252
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,200
safe for the year and a half and
And I attended things while I 

253
00:15:26,208 --> 00:15:29,800
was making dinner, right? 
I'd sit in on something from 

254
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,800
letterform archive or it's like,
this is great. 

255
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,700
Like I never did that before 
because I was too busy and I was

256
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:38,400
too lazy or right. 
I don't want to walk all the way

257
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,000
over there. 
I just want to go home. 

258
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,800
You know, I want to go over to 
TDC tonight, even though it'd be

259
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,900
really nice to see everyone or 
oh, yeah Gia. 

260
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,100
I was just tuning in as if this 
was great and tuning in and it's

261
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,800
funny. 
We say that because We had all 

262
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,300
the, especially for those who 
have proximity, right? 

263
00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:01,400
We had all the right reasons 
that we could attend, but we 

264
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,800
wouldn't attend, right? 
And then, thinking of the window

265
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600
that's open and the ability to 
record. 

266
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,400
We we make all of our activities
available. 

267
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,400
So any time you can pick up and 
dial in and the comments and 

268
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,900
feedback we've seen have been 
incredible, but people are 

269
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:21,400
really embracing a truly Global 
profession. 

270
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:26,000
If ideas, that are flowing, 
we're seeing that one of the 

271
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,900
things that you've been active 
in in really, appreciate has 

272
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:32,300
been your role in helping us 
judge and shape. 

273
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,400
Our aiga 50 books, 50 comments, 
competition. 

274
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,400
I think we're going to see some 
influx of a more Global 

275
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,400
competition applications. 
Just my guess. 

276
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,400
Yep. 
Absolutely. 

277
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:47,100
Yep. 
Judging it did a few years ago 

278
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:52,100
up at Yale and it was wonderful 
to have all the books in my hand

279
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,600
and right. 
And you know, don't take this 

280
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,000
home, put my back but it was, it
was actually just as cool to sit

281
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,599
there and look on my own time 
right now in a way that you 

282
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,500
can't if you're in a space for a
finite period. 

283
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,200
So it's like, okay. 
I'm watching TV. 

284
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,900
Let me going to look at some of 
these books tonight. 

285
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:16,500
So the way we judge is changing 
because if any of you have judge

286
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:21,599
before, you know that the second
day a judging or like you know, 

287
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,900
or by the end of the day your 
Looking at things differently 

288
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,700
than you are at the beginning 
and doing it this way. 

289
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:31,000
Virtually sort of more fair in a
way because you're like, okay. 

290
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,800
I've got an hour of energy. 
Let me do some work. 

291
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,200
I've got an hour here. 
Let me do some sort of right? 

292
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,900
You're not worn down by the end 
of looking at everything. 

293
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,200
So I think the focus I love 
that. 

294
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:43,000
Yeah. 
I do have this question. 

295
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,300
So you've been able to serve as 
a judge in over multiple times, 

296
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:50,500
but what surprises you the most 
in the entries of this past past

297
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,700
year or so, I mean, this the 
sound so they keep it how 

298
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,800
Consistently good. 
Everything is how the bar is so 

299
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,600
high right books? 
That people know like this is 

300
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,800
this is the big one. 
So, I'm really just going to 

301
00:18:04,808 --> 00:18:09,300
enter top Greatest Hits like the
best of the best of the best and

302
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,800
so when you look at him liked 
him all this is good. 

303
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,700
Like there's not a lot of 
Clunkers there. 

304
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,500
It's all beautifully crafted 
that the bar is high. 

305
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,100
One of the things that I just 
thought about a lot in this past

306
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,400
year in this space is how much 
we all kind of move. 

307
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,100
To our books of the year, you 
know, we're we're their 

308
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,100
assistants appreciation for the 
books. 

309
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,600
I thought about when we announce
the winners, just how much 

310
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,000
attention it received this year,
like looking at the winners and 

311
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,300
the books, both high quality, 
but the fact that we all curled 

312
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:44,900
up a little closer to our books,
this past year. 

313
00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:46,400
Yes. 
This is true. 

314
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,100
Now when we think about this is 
when the space is when I talk to

315
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,200
my friends and colleagues who 
aren't really in the design 

316
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,600
space, where these are the 
interfaces where they can 

317
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,100
acknowledge and see designs 
impact, but I look at the impact

318
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:04,100
that designers and design is 
growing on the world. 

319
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:08,000
Where do you see the future 
impact going for design? 

320
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,800
As we think about the world 
around us or social impact. 

321
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:14,500
As we've had these 
conversations, more people are 

322
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,800
identifying, they realize that 
they've been a part of design. 

323
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:20,400
They've been positively 
impacted. 

324
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,500
They've been moved. 
They weren't aware of it, you 

325
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:25,300
know, five years ago. 
Ten, twenty years ago, we nice. 

326
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:31,300
Students really wanting to be 
part of making change, right? 

327
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,800
And really thinking about 
sustainability and stuff that 

328
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:39,800
didn't occur to me at all it and
that age that I just want to 

329
00:19:39,808 --> 00:19:41,400
make cool stuff. 
Right? 

330
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,100
I want to make magazine the 
books and maybe it's some 

331
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:47,100
posters, but I want to make 
beautiful things and it never 

332
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:51,900
occurred to me that the things 
that I made could have an impact

333
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,300
or could help people make 
better. 

334
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,000
Ins or, or make their lives 
easier? 

335
00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:00,500
I didn't think I could have 
anything to do with 

336
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:04,000
accessibility or just know. 
I just make cool stuff. 

337
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:08,500
So we we get to be part of the 
conversation. 

338
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,600
We get to have a big old comfy. 
See at the table in a way now 

339
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,200
and moving forward. 
There's value to what we do that

340
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,500
just again never occurred to the
20 year old version of me, 

341
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:24,200
right? 
How does this impact your 

342
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,700
teaching practice? 
You think about this about what 

343
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,800
may be available for your 
students to impact? 

344
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:34,200
I wish I was them in some ways. 
I'm glad I'm not in other ways, 

345
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,500
but Rich, it's just like you 
guys. 

346
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:40,700
Like, we moved it this far. 
And I'm moving my hand here, but

347
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,000
maybe we did a little bit. 
And now I boom, this is yours. 

348
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,000
And let's see what you do. 
Yeah, your parents are still 

349
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,900
going to say, like, did you 
paint the cover of the magazine?

350
00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:55,100
You're like, no, like they're 
still a little bit of that, but 

351
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,900
That I grew up with, but not as 
much, you know, yeah, they can 

352
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,800
do anything to me. 
It still fascinates me that like

353
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,900
a designer can make it move. 
You know, I can make that move 

354
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,100
that logo spin around or, and 
that's just little baby steps. 

355
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:11,800
That's little tiny old people 
stuff that I'm thinking about, 

356
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,200
but the stuff that they can do, 
man. 

357
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,200
So like just jump in. 
Take a zillion courses, keep 

358
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,100
looking around but also get off 
your computer, go outside. 

359
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,900
Go into the real world and live 
don't just live on Stan 

360
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,600
Tick-Tock and whatever else. 
Go go live, you know, I want to 

361
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:32,800
focus on that for a second 
because that's a really powerful

362
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,800
point about living and looking 
at building where we were 

363
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,400
talking earlier about the world 
around you as you look out your 

364
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,600
window. 
Mmm. 

365
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:42,200
It's citymd. 
Yeah. 

366
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,800
I just see who's on the line and
tell you how many people they're

367
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,200
all right now, so right but it 
was it was fun watching you kind

368
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,500
of talk through this space and 
creating the stories and 

369
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,700
narratives and think about the 
world around you and How much 

370
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:59,400
that's an important skill for 
what we do in desire in thinking

371
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,800
about what's happening and 
building the narratives? 

372
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:06,400
When you look at the X at the 
students who are coming in and 

373
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,600
they're shape. 
What are the questions? 

374
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,300
You wish? 
They'd ask. 

375
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,700
Wow. 
What are the questions? 

376
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:16,400
Which they ask me. 
I've never thought about that. 

377
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,200
That's what happens. 
Is that adjacent? 

378
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,100
We have it back. 
We ask that this kind of 

379
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:23,100
adjacent. 
There isn't anything. 

380
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:28,800
They're coming back. 
As we're getting people to come 

381
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,900
back to to the city. 
I want them to ask me about the 

382
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:36,500
city a little bit, right? 
And what they should be doing. 

383
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:39,400
What's what's out there? 
It's because again, I'm part of 

384
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,300
me like I wanted to work really 
hard and all that but I also 

385
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,700
like, get off your phone lookup.
I go out there. 

386
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:50,900
Don't just focus on Brooklyn, 
you know, or piece of Manhattan 

387
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,100
like go kill the train, go 
around, go places. 

388
00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,700
If you can drive right to car at
some point like go get the big 

389
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,400
picture here. 
Yeah, I think and again because 

390
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:08,000
I was so focused and driven in 
probably scared, but just like 

391
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,500
his busy busy. 
Busy busy. 

392
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,500
Yeah. 
I didn't do that enough until 

393
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,300
well into middle age of of doing
stuff of seeing the world a bit 

394
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,900
and stepping back. 
And these kids are certainly 

395
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:25,300
more well-traveled than I have 
ever been for the most part. 

396
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,400
It's like, okay. 
Well now you hear I want you to 

397
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,800
see more than 23rd Street. 
I want you to do more than go 

398
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,700
shopping. 
Only to have some Adventures, 

399
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,300
right? 
Don't get in trouble. 

400
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,600
Don't make me have to bail you 
out. 

401
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,800
But the go. 
But go do some head Adventures, 

402
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,600
right? 
Yeah, but I guess, you know who 

403
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,000
what 18 year olds going to ask 
me what they should be doing. 

404
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:47,900
When I think about it. 
I'm old then I could like I'll 

405
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,100
say go to bed, you know, turn on
the television. 

406
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,100
But I hope they're asking each 
other. 

407
00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:57,700
I'm gonna smile a bit because I 
was going to say they may 

408
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,300
explore what's happening in 
theater because I think about 

409
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,100
the role you played in and 
working you know, with your 

410
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:07,600
right some of them. 
Do you like the theater? 

411
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,100
I like, and they've seen a bunch
of shows. 

412
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:16,400
So and you've had it incredible 
for folio of bringing those 

413
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,100
stories to life through the 
theater poster. 

414
00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,200
Yeah. 
Talk a bit about that, that 

415
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,400
exploration, that part of your 
career. 

416
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,400
Here, that was such an such an 
adventure After Rolling Stones. 

417
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:28,700
Like, what do I do? 
Now? 

418
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:32,100
I've already had the most 
amazing magazine job ever and 

419
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:33,700
worked with the best art 
director ever. 

420
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:36,000
Like, I don't know what to do. 
Like, I want to, I have to do 

421
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,700
something else for a while. 
Right? 

422
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:40,700
And when the opportunity came up
to work with Drew Hodges, at 

423
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:43,400
Saco, was one of my classmates. 
And I thought this is going to 

424
00:24:43,408 --> 00:24:47,100
be weird working for a classmate
and he was like, why? 

425
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,700
Okay, I guess you're the boss. 
Oh, it doesn't seem weird to 

426
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:51,900
you. 
But, but in the end of wasn't 

427
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,700
and And it was, it was such a 
huge change from what I done and

428
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:02,400
I realized like I needed a kick 
in the ass into have to learn 

429
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,100
something new and I'm doing that
again now and this in this job. 

430
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,800
This is chair of learning 
something new again, the theater

431
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000
stuff though was this little 
tiny insular world. 

432
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,400
Everybody knew each other, a lot
of hugs and kisses. 

433
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,000
And it took a while to get 
comfortable and to feel 

434
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,300
accepted. 
Did in part of the club in ways,

435
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:31,700
but I, I knew theater and I have
a good pop culture frame of 

436
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,500
reference. 
So it felt comfortable. 

437
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,700
And what fun? 
What, what a thrill to get to do

438
00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:41,400
stuff that he walked down the 
street and see a sea on a 

439
00:25:41,408 --> 00:25:45,700
theater and to get to go to all 
these shows around the world in 

440
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:51,100
and so many shows on Broadway 
and things that I remember going

441
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:52,800
to a few shows. 
It's like I never I would have 

442
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,900
thought of going to this on my 
own and how life-changing 

443
00:25:55,900 --> 00:26:00,000
theater can be and to walk out 
at 11:00. 

444
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,100
Like well that was amazing to 
have these experiences that move

445
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:07,900
you or make you tap your toes or
whatever. 

446
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:12,000
I was too cheap to put money 
into buying beer tickets, unless

447
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,500
it was going to tkts or 
something and learned like, oh 

448
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:17,900
no, I want this to remain part 
of my life. 

449
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,100
Yeah, and just to meet all the 
amazing people. 

450
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:28,900
He worked with to be in the 
presence of greatness even in 

451
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,100
Stephen sondheim's passing. 
Remember going to a shoot with 

452
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,200
him in thinking, like I can't 
believe I'm standing here, 

453
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:40,300
right? 
You know, like this is crazy. 

454
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:44,600
And there's so many stories like
that in it, you know, whatever 

455
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,300
you're doing. 
It just sort of becomes part of 

456
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:48,100
your day-to-day. 
The years at rolling. 

457
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:49,500
Sounds like acid. 
Just what I do, you know, 

458
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:51,600
thinking about. 
But then when you look back, 

459
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,800
you'll have full flower. 
Is a really cool part of my 

460
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,400
life, wasn't it? 
All right. 

461
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800
So what I'm going to ask 
question, which we know the 

462
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,100
answer to but the theater 
experience it made you a better 

463
00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:03,900
designer. 
Yeah, didn't it? 

464
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:05,100
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

465
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,600
Yeah. 
I had to learn how to defend the

466
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,400
work whether it was mine or the 
work that we're all doing 

467
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,600
together in the department. 
I had to learn to present, which

468
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,300
I didn't really do that. 
Well before, didn't really have 

469
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:21,200
to how to take criticism. 
That was sometimes brutal. 

470
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,600
You know how to? 
Since people's changes to do 

471
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,000
things over and over or over 
sometimes and accept that 

472
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,200
sometimes your 7th or 8th or 9th
idea. 

473
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,800
Is better than the first one 
that you thought was pretty 

474
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,800
good. 
Right? 

475
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,400
Yeah. 
To do things in multiple, which 

476
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,900
I know designers. 
We don't like to do you think. 

477
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:41,600
Okay. 
This is it, here's one or two, 

478
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,900
but it was a good experience for
those years of doing many, many,

479
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,500
and encouraging people. 
I worked with try it like this. 

480
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:52,900
Let's try it another way to keep
people's morale up when we were 

481
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,000
on the 99th version of 
something. 

482
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:59,300
But yeah, it was kind of brutal 
at times but it was really fun, 

483
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,300
Andrew made. 
Sure that it was always fun and 

484
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:03,800
they were always treated really 
well. 

485
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,100
We went on trips every year. 
I like, we all went to little 

486
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,800
dicks in by st. 
John's, like we did something 

487
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,900
every year as a group, save 
mobile, HUD friend. 

488
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:19,300
And so those little, you know, 
why they had wine 30 at 5:30 on 

489
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:20,900
Fridays. 
Usually when I was teaching. 

490
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,300
So, I wasn't there for that. 
But like they had Little moments

491
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:26,600
of like, okay, we're going to 
drink this wine today and stuff 

492
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,600
that I guess you don't get to do
in an office anymore. 

493
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,600
But right, what was the first 
production in the work that you 

494
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,200
felt like you found your voice 
as a designer moving from 

495
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,900
Rolling Stones to Broadway. 
What was the first one? 

496
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,000
We you felt? 
Okay. 

497
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,300
This is my voice in this 
Broadway context. 

498
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,800
I know, for Rolling Stone. 
There was something. 

499
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,300
I came in one Saturday and 
worked on her or one Sunday cuz 

500
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:53,900
I just needed the time by myself
to sit there and And when I 

501
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,000
remember showing it to Fred on 
Monday and he was like, when did

502
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,800
you do this as well? 
I came in yesterday and he's 

503
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,900
just like, you came in yesterday
and I was like, well, yeah. 

504
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,000
And whoever he's like all 
starry-eyed. 

505
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,300
Like you came in on your own 
time to were like, oh my God, I 

506
00:29:08,308 --> 00:29:12,200
love you. 
And then again, at spot working 

507
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,600
on the Rolling. 
Stone thing was a Howard Finster

508
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:15,400
thing. 
I remember it. 

509
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,200
It's not very good. 
But in the moment, then it was 

510
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:24,500
like, like, oh, you know, And an
another Living Color. 

511
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,400
Okay. 
Thank there were a couple of. 

512
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,600
There were a couple of out and 
seeking Marley. 

513
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:31,500
I think. 
Oh, nice. 

514
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:33,100
Yeah, there were a couple of. 
There were just a couple of 

515
00:29:33,108 --> 00:29:36,700
little moments of these little 
breakthroughs and a Tom Hanks. 

516
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,700
Mr. Big. 
I remember that and but these 

517
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,400
are these are like early 90s 
there were talking about of just

518
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,000
stuff. 
That's like just yeah, I'm 

519
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,000
trying extra hard and having the
person I respected say well good

520
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,200
job, you know. 
Like good for you and good for 

521
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,500
us. 
It's like oh and then at spot I 

522
00:29:56,508 --> 00:30:00,200
remember doing one of the two 
shows Harlem song and Man of La 

523
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,300
Mancha to of the earlier, Ali 
Ansari, the first things and 

524
00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:09,500
seeing that coming home on the 1
train at 28th Street at 23rd at 

525
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,100
20. 
Like I just kept seeing it. 

526
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:15,700
I would get off the train and I 
would look at the two sheet and 

527
00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:19,200
I get back on and then I get off
again at 18th Street, and I 

528
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,900
hadn't been so, About something 
in so many years and it was so 

529
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:25,500
cool to have that feeling. 
Again, you know, of seeing the 

530
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:29,600
big, big color AD in the times. 
Fermentable much, I think in 

531
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,600
like, wow, I worked on that and 
like puts on a marquee and here 

532
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,700
it is in this big times. 
A then it's like those moments 

533
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:42,000
are so wonderful and then after 
a while it just becomes what you

534
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,900
do and you just looking for 
mistakes, but for the kind of 

535
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:48,700
those early, the Early class 
successes that maybe aren't the 

536
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:51,000
best thing you've ever done. 
But in the moment, We're like, 

537
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,700
so that's such a great feeling. 
And now I now I get to 

538
00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:57,500
experience it in a different 
way. 

539
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,600
Sometimes with stuff that I get 
to work on. 

540
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,900
I'll see something on the street
that I worked on or something 

541
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:07,900
and smile, but now, I see it 
with the students. 

542
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:09,500
It's going to happen. 
That's really quick. 

543
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,600
See seeing it in your students 
when they come here. 

544
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,000
So we talked a lot about what we
as Educators pass on to our 

545
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,300
students. 
Well, I'm curious what some of 

546
00:31:19,308 --> 00:31:23,000
the things you've learned. 
Simply from your students and 

547
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,600
watching them this past year. 
Or so there, they were more 

548
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,900
resilient than I would have 
given them credit for, you know,

549
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:35,700
they stuck with it last year. 
We scrambled certainly March 

550
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:40,300
2020, that that last semester. 
But for last fall through the 

551
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:44,100
spring, they really rallied in 
was mostly cameras on 

552
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,100
engagement, good portfolios. 
At the end and we talk to kids 

553
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:52,000
who were all the roommates went.
Back to wherever in the kids by 

554
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,800
themselves and the apartment and
like, oh and you're still doing 

555
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,500
your work and good for you and 
like, let's keep in touch. 

556
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:02,400
Let's check in to make sure that
the you're okay because you're 

557
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:05,600
literally by yourself, right? 
That's really hard. 

558
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:09,900
So, yeah, so I've been been 
really impressed by how focused 

559
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:12,000
they were through the worst of 
it. 

560
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,400
And my sophomore class that I 
have on Tuesday Mornings. 

561
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,400
We went to post your house 
yesterday and I see That class 

562
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:24,600
remotely since I still have 
students in other countries and 

563
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,900
it's a very it's half the 
sophomores, one semester and 

564
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,900
then the other half the other. 
And so some of them, not all of 

565
00:32:29,908 --> 00:32:33,100
them were here showed up to meet
at poster house. 

566
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:36,100
And look at the pushpin show and
and it was so nice to meet them 

567
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,300
because I had nothing great, you
know, this year and we met and I

568
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:43,200
know them from Zoom from Little 
Boxes. 

569
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,200
And as we start to spend more 
time together, again, it's going

570
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,300
to be great. 
I was chair. 

571
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,900
R for a semester and a half 
before things fell apart, so, 

572
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:58,200
I'm hoping that as things are 
being put back together, that 

573
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,800
this will be a really fun job. 
You know, I think it will be. 

574
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,800
I listen to you your passion and
excitement and I know it can't 

575
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,900
help, but be fun as you question
her. 

576
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:12,500
So when we, when we turn this 
corner, we're going into 2022. 

577
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,200
What do you most excited about? 
What am I was excited? 

578
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:22,100
Huh? 
I am excited about Getting back 

579
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:23,500
out in the world a little bit 
more. 

580
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,600
Mhm. 
I was starting to get to a point

581
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,900
in my life where I was like, 
okay, I'm going to go out and do

582
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,000
stuff. 
I want to travel or right and 

583
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,000
see see the world not just when 
I go to do a talk and then stack

584
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,000
a day on or something, but 
actually go and have a few 

585
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,300
Adventures, right? 
And it's going to take me a 

586
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,500
while to kind of get that going 
again, because it's easy for me 

587
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:49,700
to fall into the I'm really busy
and I got stuff to do and I have

588
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:52,700
time for that. 
That, but I need to create that 

589
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:58,800
time to do stuff, to take a trip
to kick back a little bit. 

590
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,900
It was interesting for me to be 
out of the city for so long and 

591
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:04,600
I always wondered what that 
would be like side. 

592
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,000
Never done that before, right? 
And what I'd be really bored, 

593
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,400
even if I was busy, would it be 
weird being so far away and 

594
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:16,199
things that aren't open and 
being in a whole different 

595
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,300
environment than Lower 
Manhattan? 

596
00:34:18,699 --> 00:34:21,800
And I realize, like Fine, like I
was fine. 

597
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:26,100
So with the exception of like 
bears and all this all wildlife 

598
00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:30,100
and sort of like AA. 
Yeah, power outages and all that

599
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,300
kind of stuff. 
It's know, lots of shelving but 

600
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:39,300
it's like, okay, I need to to 
find more pleasure, right? 

601
00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:44,100
And more downtime in, give 
myself that space to just kind 

602
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:48,900
of just relax every now and then
and not watch TV relax, but like

603
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:53,199
relax and I don't know, look at 
stuff or at least be moving and 

604
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,900
not sedentary. 
Well, I'm going to accept your 

605
00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:59,900
challenge and I'm going to be 
intentional and make sure the 

606
00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:02,500
New Year. 
I'm going to come up to New York

607
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,000
and you and I my friend are 
going to hang out and we're 

608
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,300
going to I want to see New York 
through Gayle Anderson sighs. 

609
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:11,800
That's what we're going to have 
adventure together. 

610
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:14,900
We'll take you to a show. 
I want the New York story 

611
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:18,800
through your eyes if the, if he 
is, as we as we talked about. 

612
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,000
So that's our challenge return. 
And we're going to get back 

613
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,700
together and then tell everybody
about it. 

614
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,300
That's funny. 
Yeah, you so dull. 

615
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:33,000
Hey doll is a thing to we're 
good. 

616
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,800
Well, you're gonna enjoy this 
year. 

617
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:38,900
There were going to sit there. 
So no never that. 

618
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:41,400
I'm gonna take a cab because 
it's too far to walk. 

619
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,900
As I said, New York the New York
City, story through your eye. 

620
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,900
Yeah is wonderful. 
As we think about in your 

621
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:52,300
career. 
Starting off in loving art and 

622
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:55,500
loving drawing it. 
Do you ever pause and just take 

623
00:35:55,500 --> 00:36:00,300
it all in of about what a 
wonderful career you have and 

624
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:06,200
still are having not really but 
I'm kind of hitting a milestone 

625
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,800
age-wise and yet another 
Milestone you won't tell 

626
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,400
anybody. 
Well, yeah, there's a big one. 

627
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:17,400
So this is so yeah. 
I think I am. 

628
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,300
I'm thinking about the future in
ways. 

629
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:24,000
Did a different way than I used 
to, I'm thinking final resting 

630
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,600
place future at this point. 
But again, I'm thinking about 

631
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,600
like, well, how can I wanna have
some fun now? 

632
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,100
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

633
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,500
So when you come up we're going 
to. 

634
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,900
Yeah, I have to figure out what 
to do. 

635
00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:38,100
That's fun, but it's not going 
to be an educational experience 

636
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:41,000
is going to be fun. 
That's exactly what I asked for.

637
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,100
Okay, we're going to have fun, 
you know, will decide if we 

638
00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:47,700
share with everyone else. 
Let's hope it'll be Gail and 

639
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:49,900
Benny taking over New York. 
They are all right. 

640
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,300
Last bite of that space. 
So when you think about the 

641
00:36:53,300 --> 00:36:57,700
future design, what makes you 
most optimistic again, I think 

642
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,900
that what we do is valued, 
right? 

643
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,900
What we do. 
A young person can do well 

644
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:09,200
financially, so hopefully more 
people will want to do what 

645
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,700
we're doing. 
So and again, the families will 

646
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:15,300
say, yes, it's okay for my baby 
to, to go to art school because 

647
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:19,700
they're going to be fine. 
I feel like we're in my old age.

648
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:21,600
I feel like we're Reagan in good
hands. 

649
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,700
Now that young people have 
really good intentions and a 

650
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:31,300
desire to do good. 
So it's really nice to see that.

651
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:37,200
So again, now I'll be there 
shaking a stick, just giving 

652
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,000
them a hard time. 
Don't make noise. 

653
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,100
I'm trying to sleep but just 
like okay, you said you were 

654
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:45,200
going to do this like come on, I
gotta do it. 

655
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,500
So I feel like we're turning 
over the keys to some good 

656
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,900
people. 
That said, I'm not giving them 

657
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,900
up quite that easy so easily. 
So nice. 

658
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,300
I intend to still be actively 
doing stuff. 

659
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:01,200
Looking at the we're putting 
together a Milton show. 

660
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,100
That's up down in the lobby and 
right. 

661
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,500
It's like Milton was doing it 
for the last minute and I want 

662
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:10,800
to be I want to be doing that to
doing something. 

663
00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:13,900
I don't know what the doing 
something right up till the last

664
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:18,200
breath. 
I think that's a powerful way 

665
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,800
for us to close our 
conversation. 

666
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,500
Just oh, yeah. 
Yeah. 

667
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:25,600
I know it. 
I can't believe we can still 

668
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,700
talk forever. 
Oh my goodness. 

669
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:32,500
Yes, it's time to go. 
I gotta go back to looking at 

670
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,300
it. 
The city MD line to see who's 

671
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:37,500
this who's going in for the 
reason why we're going to do 

672
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:41,300
this again come up and we can 
look at the line together. 

673
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,800
I say undergoing any take over 
New York. 

674
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:50,300
Yeah, I need to 21 City MD at a 
time, but it's been a delight to

675
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:54,100
just be able to spend time and 
I'm here. 

676
00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:57,700
Its face, and I thank everybody 
for joining in on our 

677
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:03,200
conversation with Gayle Anderson
who I still say scholar teacher.

678
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,000
It's called Adventurer 
Adventure. 

679
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:06,700
Yeah. 
Okay. 

680
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,000
That's the role. 
By the next time we talk I will 

681
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,500
have gone somewhere Channel have
done something champion of the 

682
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:15,800
future. 
Yeah, and design Optimus. 

683
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:17,700
This line. 
Optimus. 

684
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:19,300
I'm safe. 
I'm keeping that one. 

685
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:21,200
Yeah, okay, that is my gift to 
you. 

686
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,100
My friend. 
Thank you, and you've been a 

687
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:26,300
gift to all of us. 
So, thank you so much, Gayle for

688
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:28,700
joining me on this episode of 
designer. 

689
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:30,900
Jason. 
Thank you all for listening in 

690
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:34,400
and join us next time. 
As we look at the power of 

691
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,800
design, both today and tomorrow.
Bye. 

692
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000
Thanks for joining us for this 
episode of design, adjacent a 

693
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,900
podcast about the Nexus of 
design today. 

694
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:48,200
And tomorrow, show notes for 
this episode will be available 

695
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,000
on AIG a.org. 
Please subscribe to our show on 

696
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,500
anchor. 
Apple, podcasts Google play 

697
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,400
Spotify or wherever you get your
podcast. 

698
00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:01,400
Aiga is designed adjacent 
podcasts and its contents. 

699
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:05,500
Are the copyright of aiga the 
professional association for 

700
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:10,500
design All Rights Reserved. 
Any Bhushan, or reproduction of 

701
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:14,200
part or all of the contents in 
any form is prohibited without 

702
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,400
aig's Express written 
permission. 

703
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,600
My name is Li Xian zhuang until 
next time.