1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,700 I relate this to our society in general, right? 2 00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:06,900 That everybody wants a quick fix and a sound bite and I wish they 3 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:14,600 knew that design is rigorous and a real discipline and that it is 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,400 available to anyone and has relevance everywhere. 5 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,100 Hello. And welcome to this episode of 6 00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:26,600 design adjacent, the podcasts that talks about the Nexus of 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,300 design today and tomorrow. I'm I'm your host Ben EF 8 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:33,800 Johnson. And today we have a really 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,000 special conversation. We're going to talk about how 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,300 design can be used to create real. 11 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:44,400 And Lasting social change among other ways in which design can 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,800 have impact today. My guest is none other than 13 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:51,500 Cheryl Heller. Cheryl is a true leader, 14 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:56,700 designer scholar business strategist and author. 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,400 Her experience has expand everything from Britta 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,700 philanthropic non-profit can academic worlds in each role. 17 00:01:04,700 --> 00:01:08,800 She's been an important part of building designing and 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,800 envisioning groundbreaking programs. 19 00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,900 She's found it to companies along the way and new programs 20 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:18,100 at the School of Visual Arts in New York and Arizona State 21 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:21,700 University. She's taught creativity to 22 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:25,200 leaders around the world not just here in in the United 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,800 States, but in the UK Kenya, Mexico, Sierra Leone, India. 24 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,700 China and South Korea her client, she's helped grow their 25 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:37,600 businesses from small Regional Enterprises to True Global 26 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,100 Market leaders. But it's not just her work. 27 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,600 In the traditional professional spheres of design that we want 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,300 to talk about today. It's really Cheryl's. 29 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:50,800 Most recent positions in the things that she's been able to 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,200 do heading. Both design, integration and 31 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,300 Innovation design, building programs that she created the 32 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:02,000 first stem-based master's program for design of social 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,000 Innovation programs that really touched the Nexus of design 34 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:11,700 engineering and business. Cheryl is truly an example of 35 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,000 this extension of being design adjacent. 36 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:16,500 I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. 37 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:21,100 She's also a distinguished aiga medalist for her overall 38 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:22,700 contribution to the field of design. 39 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:25,900 She's recognized for deathly, embodying. 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,600 It's a great way to be recognized for deathly and 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,900 bottling the many dimensions of communication design, and for 42 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:35,600 inspiring and guiding organizations and individuals to 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,500 use design for social Innovation. 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,200 And as a strategic tool to improve the overall Human 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,800 Experience. I love to welcome today. 46 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,100 Cheryl Heller, Cheryl. Thank you for joining us. 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,800 It's a pleasure Fanny. I am so happy to be here and I'm 48 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:57,800 so thrilled that you are leading aiga. 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,600 I'd love everything you doing. I love your energy. 50 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,200 I love your curiosity. So thank you. 51 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:06,600 Thank you for just for joining us today. 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,700 It's to start off. This is really interesting and 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,700 such a timely moment. I was reading through some of my 54 00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:17,000 notes. In realize it's almost been 10 55 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,500 years to the day that you offer. These words, social Innovation 56 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,100 needs design and design need social innovation. 57 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,000 A piece that you put together for Stanford, social Innovation 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,000 review, talk a bit about that moment and that Proclamation, 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,300 it's been 10 years to look at this Nexus where social 60 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:43,100 Innovation and design meet now. Well, thanks for that question. 61 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,500 It's always interesting to hear people talk about what your, 62 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:48,300 what you've done in your life. So I was thinking, you know, 63 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:52,300 I've had complicated relationships with design, and 64 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:54,800 there have been many moments in my life when I thought it was 65 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:56,600 limiting. I didn't want to be called a A 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,500 fake designer. I didn't want to call a product 67 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:01,000 designer, didn't want to be called, you know, cuz cuz I want 68 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,100 to do everything. And and what I've learned is 69 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:08,600 that design is everything design is a way of approaching life, 70 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,400 and I'm more committed and more enthusiastic about potential of 71 00:04:14,408 --> 00:04:19,399 design, and I've ever been what I meant, when I said that, 72 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:26,400 social Innovation needs to sign, is that in order to understand? 73 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,300 Plex cities of human society. In order to understand people, 74 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:38,900 in order to collaborate to navigate in ambiguity. 75 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,500 These are all skills that designers have. 76 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:48,900 And they are precisely the skills that allow us to innovate 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,500 in a way that benefits people and do it in a way that that 78 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,900 actually serves them and includes them and is relevant to 79 00:04:55,900 --> 00:05:01,100 them. Well, when we think about, you 80 00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:04,600 know, it in those are the kind of the early moments of thinking 81 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,900 about social Innovation and design later on you came back. 82 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:13,300 A few years later to talk about the impact of the work that was 83 00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:17,900 going on and professionals. And I use that word because we 84 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:19,300 start to see people coming from all different. 85 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:23,300 Backgrounds coming in to look at its social Innovation, but then 86 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:27,500 after we get this Rush of excitement around it, I love the 87 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:30,700 conversation that moves into thinking about measurement. 88 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:35,700 So it moves Beyond kind of trend to really being an impactful 89 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:37,800 part of the way. We move things forward. 90 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:41,700 When you came back to speak about that next need for 91 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:43,400 measurement. When the things that struck me 92 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,900 was the fact that we know that there's a lot of energy money 93 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:50,600 and resource going in it. But how do we show that these 94 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,100 applications are improving lives? 95 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,100 Yeah, and I think that's it's related to one of the dilemmas 96 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:02,600 that all new forms of design have faced, right? 97 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,900 I was five years into sharing the program at SVA that I 98 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:09,000 developed. Right? 99 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:15,200 And I said, you know, we see evidence of the effect that this 100 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,500 has on people who study it on people that they touch but we 101 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:25,300 can't quantify it during their stories that If you already know 102 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,700 them, and if you see it yourself, you believe them. 103 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:33,700 They, you're a great supporter, but for designers to stand up in 104 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:40,200 a room of scientists or a room of statisticians and say, well, 105 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:45,400 here's the affected, my work has, we never had the words. 106 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,600 We never had the means to do that. 107 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:56,300 And so that's what measured was. How do we Discuss and how do we 108 00:06:56,300 --> 00:06:59,300 quantify the count? The difference that design makes 109 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,000 and that was the beginning of a quest that will go on for a long 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,500 time? Because I do, I still don't 111 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:08,800 think we, we have it. There's a, there's a new and in 112 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,300 fact, I could send you a link. If you want to make it 113 00:07:11,308 --> 00:07:13,800 available. Please do fill in behind Bill 114 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,900 and Melinda Gates Foundation and usaid. 115 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:22,100 Just organized, a special supplement to a publication on 116 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,600 global Health security. At USA puts out and it was all 117 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,300 about human centered design in global health and and what it is 118 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:33,900 and where it comes from and the effect that it has. 119 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:38,800 And I wrote one of the articles with a colleague and lafon from 120 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Jon Snow ink. So that conversation goes on an 121 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,700 investigation goes on because it's pretty new. 122 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,400 He really is it. I wanted to start with there 123 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,300 with thinking about social innovation in moving to it 124 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:53,900 maturing as a space because of Interesting. 125 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:56,700 We talked about kind of the adjacent space is, we're having 126 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:59,800 conversations about impact, which is always the bread and 127 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,500 butter of nonprofit work and social work. 128 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:06,200 Well, how do we move from where we are to the impact that we're 129 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,600 having? And I think it's the, you said 130 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,500 it's a healthy part of that maturation, process to say. 131 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,500 Okay, how do we move from the good idea to understanding that 132 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,200 these ideas have impact in our space? 133 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Because that's really the way that we translate designs impact 134 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,500 designs. It's value to other professions. 135 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:27,300 Like you said that there are other professions who are built 136 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:31,000 on those impact models. What's interesting? 137 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,299 And I think for our listeners to go, but you have a deep 138 00:08:34,299 --> 00:08:38,200 commitment to social Innovation, but you didn't start off with 139 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,500 that being the name or the section that you're in. 140 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:43,799 You started off as we said before, as a designer talk, a 141 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:47,100 bit about your journey. What led you to the end of these 142 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:50,800 points? Starting off as a designer and 143 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,900 kind of looking, at those first set of creative problems to 144 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:58,700 where you are today. Yeah, well if our friend has 145 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,800 suggested that my motto in life is there must be a harder way to 146 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:09,200 do this and I I find that I repeat that I you know, I had a 147 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,200 career I had a career in advertising. 148 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,700 I was invited to start a design Department in the biggest 149 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:20,300 advertising agency in Boston. It was a national agency and I 150 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:25,700 really I bought into the corner office and the High heels and 151 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:31,700 the, you know, all of the accoutrements careers and I had 152 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,300 an epiphany. I just realized, you know, it 153 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:37,100 didn't mean anything to me and and most of what I was doing and 154 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:39,300 it was after years of doing it. Right? 155 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:47,600 And we had dinner with some new neighbors in New York and a 156 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,000 woman named Jamie Cloud. I was having too much wine with 157 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,200 her and I said, would it what do you do? 158 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,300 And she said, well, well, I develop sustainability 159 00:09:56,300 --> 00:10:00,500 curriculum, but overlays normal curriculum for K through 12. 160 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:03,000 And I said, yeah, what's that? Right? 161 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,800 And she told me and I said, oh, that's really interesting. 162 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:09,600 And she also told me she was calling her organization a sec. 163 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,100 And I said there's another sec. Right? 164 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,100 You know, that's probably not a really smart the best name for 165 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:19,200 you. Anyway. 166 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:21,300 I said, well, I want to know. I want to know everything about 167 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:23,000 what you do. She came down the next morning 168 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,300 with a stack of books. Pray, and she was standing in 169 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:28,800 the light in just inside our apartment. 170 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,900 And I said this is going to change my life, isn't it? 171 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:35,800 And she said, yep, it usually does and it just knocked me for 172 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,500 a loop but it was Peter sangay and David or and Paul Hawkins 173 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:44,000 and all the people and we know so well now but what happened to 174 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,300 me was I said, this is what I really care about. 175 00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:50,500 This is what I want to do. How do I integrate this with 176 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:53,600 design? And I didn't know and literally 177 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,600 it was a period of eight years of just identifying people who 178 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,500 were doing things that I really admired and thinking about how 179 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:05,400 what I knew how to do could help them. 180 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400 And that was doing it the hard way, people don't have to take 181 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,700 that circuitous route anymore, you know, but I think it's, as I 182 00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:16,400 said it, we're all informed and forged by the journey, right? 183 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,500 And I love having that question because we can see the work that 184 00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:24,000 you're doing now, but all of those Experiences and finding 185 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,400 meaning or not finding meeting help to fortify who you are 186 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,200 today and these conversations. And we think about it that I 187 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,900 remember being in school and it was like, you became something 188 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,500 you went to professional path. You became something and it 189 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:40,500 locked you in. But really kind of our 190 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:44,300 conversations here about kind of design adjacency in a way design 191 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:45,700 and business and Leadership and go. 192 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,300 It breaks all of that. But your background a journey. 193 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:51,700 Is that noisy is that noisy part of breaking it up? 194 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,800 Ugh. How do we think about it? 195 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:59,200 Right? Yeah, and I think designers if I 196 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,300 look back, I've had periods of my life where I was part of a 197 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:05,000 bigger institution and I did what that institution has. 198 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,400 I had a job right? Mean, not all that long ago, 199 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,900 designers were told we you can't right there were professional 200 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:12,000 writers. Have been trained for that. 201 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,200 So don't you think about words and I was thinking about that 202 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,700 when you were talking about your kids. 203 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,700 And so a combination of those defined roles and then Heads of 204 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:26,300 okay, I'm going to go out. I'm going to start my own thing 205 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:31,400 and I'm going to follow my interests and I'm gonna, I'm 206 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,900 Gonna Change, you know, and those contrasting periods of 207 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:39,400 sort of being locked into a defined role. 208 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,000 And then getting to reinvent yourself is a wonderful part of 209 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:49,400 a designer's opportunity. It really is, you know, one of 210 00:12:49,408 --> 00:12:51,700 the things that I find really interesting as well. 211 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:55,200 When you talk about reinvention, is the role that you've had in 212 00:12:55,900 --> 00:13:01,200 academic spaces to help kind of shape the way, that successive 213 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,600 generations of designers, engage with the world, really 214 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,800 interested in how you've built programs, both, it s VA and at 215 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,100 Arizona State that were at these nexuses between engineering 216 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,700 business and design what we are. Some of the principal challenges 217 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:21,600 you faced bridging those disciplines because I think you 218 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,900 were doing one some of the first programs that brought all this 219 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:26,700 together. Yeah, and they were very 220 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:30,500 different at SBA because it's a, it's an art school. 221 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,700 It's a creative school. The challenge was convincing 222 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:36,700 non-designers to come to a design school. 223 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,800 And, you know, we had a wonderful student to come from 224 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,700 the London School of Economics. Right? 225 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:44,400 And she said, I want to learn design. 226 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:48,800 So it was it was promoting and communicating and getting the 227 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,400 word out in that case. But at SVA do was no 228 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,300 bureaucracy. That, you know, we were Were as 229 00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:58,500 inclusive as we could be. And as the people we could 230 00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:04,100 attract ASU totally different story because it's the largest 231 00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:06,800 public university in the United States, right? 232 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,400 And the schools are very siloed. There's a desire to put them 233 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,500 together, but then everything about the way Academia is 234 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:19,600 structured mitigates against actually doing that from pay 235 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,100 scales for faculty to schedules to everything else. 236 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:28,200 And not East. Faculty who teach what they 237 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,100 teach and think, that's just what they should be teaching, 238 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:35,100 and that's fine. So when we launched a 239 00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:39,700 transdisciplinary program that we really wanted to be fully 240 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:43,600 integrated not, here's this Chunk on business here as Chunk 241 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,500 on engineering, who's this Chunk on design. 242 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,100 It really meant inspiring The Faculty to put aside, what they 243 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:53,200 were used to teaching and thinking about it from a 244 00:14:53,208 --> 00:14:57,500 student's point of view, right? And and the it was People and 245 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:03,000 everyone got to learn and everyone everyone got to see the 246 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,800 principles that they had in common the processes that they 247 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,200 had in common and where each discipline contributed something 248 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,600 new right? It's really that power of seeing 249 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,800 how other disciplines can come together and contribute or how 250 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,100 they can amplify and enhance what you have. 251 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,200 But I also find it interesting when disciplines come together 252 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,500 how much we start to realize we have in common? 253 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,400 That we see problems that we reach thinking about, but from 254 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,700 our own lenses. I always think about a quote 255 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,200 that Peterson gay something Peterson guy said he said all 256 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,200 boundaries are arbitrary. We create them and then we find 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,900 ourselves trapped within them and if you and it's you know 258 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,200 going back to those original writers that Jamie Cloud 259 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,000 introduced me to Nature, doesn't have silos. 260 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,000 Right? Right, and when you're out in 261 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,900 the world problems, don't happen. 262 00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:58,600 That are only engineering problems or only business 263 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,700 problems for everything is connected. 264 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:06,300 And so, What it really means is you use a world as a model 265 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,200 instead of the traditional limited institutions, which I 266 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,000 think you know, really speaks to our Dynamic future. 267 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,100 One of the things that that I'd love to talk about, you know, in 268 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:20,400 thinking of you working as a strategist and as an educator, 269 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,700 there's one space that comes in and it's a word that's always 270 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:27,000 been near and dear to my heart and that's entrepreneur. 271 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,500 I remember that being the challenge is as a young kid and 272 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:33,600 being interested in starting their own business and not being 273 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,000 a big deal to learn how to spell entrepreneur, right? 274 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,700 As a young kid. I understood what it meant to 275 00:16:39,708 --> 00:16:42,300 kind of create a business. And then that's always been a 276 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:45,900 part of my kind of professional journey and thinking about that. 277 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:49,200 But you know, I had been interested in our conversations 278 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,100 about looking at entrepreneurship today and kind 279 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:57,300 of your thoughts on redesigning the way we support. 280 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,700 Engaged and think about entrepreneurship. 281 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:05,400 I think it's really important to recognize first. 282 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,700 That nothing is the same as it used to be right? 283 00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:12,700 That the world markets are not what they used to be Society is 284 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:17,000 not what it used to be. And so becoming an entrepreneur 285 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:19,900 takes very different skills than it used to write. 286 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:23,099 When people actually believe that doing a five-year plan that 287 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:26,400 you would know what your profit margin would be five years from 288 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,600 now, right? And so becoming an entrepreneur 289 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,900 Requires the skills that designers have. 290 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:36,100 And again, it's functioning in ambiguity, right? 291 00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:40,900 And scoping, and reframing complex problems and thinking 292 00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:47,100 about things at a systems level, and So I think in the way that 293 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:51,100 entrepreneurs need to be in the world now, they need design 294 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:55,800 skills, whether they know what they're doing is design or not. 295 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,900 And the other aspect that I think is really important about 296 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:03,400 entrepreneurship is Pete's been the way it's taught. 297 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,700 It's been a very narrow swimlane of, you know, here's what your 298 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:11,800 fourth slide should say. Here's what your ask should be. 299 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,200 You need an exit strategy. You need to try to get money. 300 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,900 From Silicon Valley, whatever it is. 301 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:20,600 And, you know, the most people in the world, don't need that, 302 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,200 don't want that. And in the places where economic 303 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:31,600 regeneration and Recovery is most needed right scale, doesn't 304 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,000 matter Innovation doesn't matter. 305 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,400 Right? What matters is that you create 306 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:40,200 value? And so I think design is 307 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,300 perfectly position to really pay attention. 308 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,600 Shinto, who needs to be an entrepreneur now, who wants to 309 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,600 be an entrepreneur? And how does the traditional 310 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,600 approach need to be modified in order to be relevant to the 311 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,300 people and places where its most needed, you know, it's really 312 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,600 interesting. So going back to my choke about 313 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,600 being a kid and learning how to spell entrepreneurship, you 314 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,900 know, that was different. I understood what it meant to 315 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:13,500 create value through a business professional needs without 316 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:17,600 having any Of that structure at a they needed that complex 317 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,700 overhang that the big word provided right and it kind of 318 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:24,700 speaks to that space that you're already naturally moving it to a 319 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:27,800 space in which you understand how to create value, which is at 320 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,500 its heart. What became the stifling part 321 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,100 was then building in the expectations of the world of 322 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,200 what it should be. So your point of how we often 323 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,600 think about, you know, I always thought about creating business 324 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,200 and creating value was really, as we said, about problem 325 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,300 solving, it was about, you know, making something. 326 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,600 Better making something more Dynamic solving, and need to go 327 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,000 into it. But when you start to get to the 328 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,900 study of Entrepreneurship to your point, you then have all of 329 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,300 the business plan has to have this structure. 330 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,100 You need to have this page on this end. 331 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:01,300 These are the acceptable ways in which you operate and they 332 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:06,000 create a certain type of Enterprise which sometimes we 333 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,100 falsely come in and believe that's the only type of 334 00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:09,800 Enterprise, right? That's the only space in which 335 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,600 entrepreneurship can have early in my career. 336 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,800 I had a mentor who always Ways push the idea of 337 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,000 intrapreneurship and talked about creating from within and 338 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,400 these kind of reinvention spaces and it was so counter to what 339 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,300 everything else is being taught. I know you've expressed that 340 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:30,300 this kind of opportunity for designed to rethink not just our 341 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,500 entrepreneurial landscape, but really the curriculum that goes 342 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:34,200 along with it. Hmm. 343 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,200 How do we give people the tools without that heavy framework? 344 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,400 How do we make it relevant and useful for them? 345 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,100 Right? You know what you, I love what 346 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,800 you're saying about creating. You, I also think that what gets 347 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,800 lost is that businesses are about relationships, right? 348 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,500 Right there about it's about thinking about other people and 349 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:57,900 what they need or what would be a value to them? 350 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:04,000 And education is a relationship. It's understanding what your, 351 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,400 what your audience needs, what will make them successful, what 352 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,400 they want to do when they graduate from whatever program, 353 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,400 our class you're A about and that gets left out. 354 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:17,600 Right? Right, right. 355 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,200 In the same way that I think a lot of entrepreneurs, and 356 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,300 especially in the, the sort of classic establishment 357 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:27,700 entrepreneurship, you know, people, they get really excited 358 00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:30,600 about having a new thing, a new technology, and a big mistake 359 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,000 that they make is I got an idea. Now, let me find a market for 360 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,500 it, right? When we know it's identifying an 361 00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,400 e and then fulfilling that need it really is. 362 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,500 And that's what You know, Jewish people when you think about 363 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:50,300 folks creating businesses, you know, how many people Define 364 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:51,900 themselves in entrepreneur. First? 365 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,100 They Define themselves by the business or the problem or the 366 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,500 solution are defining, right? It's their branded entrepreneur 367 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,500 later on but you know, I love the what comes if I tripping or 368 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,500 a ship at its heart. It's really this sense of 369 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:10,000 agency. This sense of I can do something 370 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,900 that can have an impact and make a change. 371 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,500 And I think in the Each issue been doing in the program's 372 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,100 bill. It really dovetails nicely with 373 00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:22,600 this idea of social Innovation. If designed for social 374 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,200 innovation of, I can make a difference through the approach, 375 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,800 the work and the skill that we have, how have you seen in the 376 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,700 last few years that you've been working in this space? 377 00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:39,600 How have you seen designers and Business Leaders mature in their 378 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,000 boldness or their ability to take those skills and have real? 379 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,700 So, Impact. We're breaking up one second to 380 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:53,900 reflect on what you just said. I think design itself is agency. 381 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:58,100 Right? And I think any designer that's 382 00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:03,400 been practicing for any length of time, recognizes it, a 383 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,900 certain point the power that they have right, right. 384 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,800 Something's going on. I don't like it. 385 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:10,500 Let's change it. Or I want to reinvent myself. 386 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,500 Let me read design this. And so I think that's at the 387 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:18,900 heart of design. Sting the maturity, right? 388 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,300 A bunch of things, right? I think more people are 389 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:26,900 recognizing that when you disaggregate the process of 390 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:31,200 design from the traditional artifacts from the craft and 391 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,800 they will always be crafts. And it should always be craft 392 00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:38,500 when you disaggregate that you have a process that you can use 393 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,800 everywhere. And for everything from 394 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,200 imagining, you know, an event to changing. 395 00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:48,800 I'm trying to change a whole section of society. 396 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:56,200 I think, you know, honesty that there is much more maturity 397 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,800 needed. Okay, right. 398 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,900 I think that social design and design activism and social 399 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,000 Innovation design and all those names. 400 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:12,200 Our designers are just coming to realize that having the power to 401 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,400 affect other people's lives has to come with responsibilities. 402 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,700 Right? And I think it also comes with 403 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:22,000 measurement and and I think there's such enthusiasm about 404 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,700 changing the world and, you know, making an impact. 405 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:31,200 And so I see the beginning of, hey, let's look at what impact 406 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,800 were having. Let's look at what we're 407 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,700 changing. Let's be responsible for what 408 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,200 we're changing. And so there's a growing 409 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,900 sophistication in terms of how design can be applied to those 410 00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:45,300 problems and a growing sophistication about 411 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,900 responsibility for the changes that are instigated and lots of 412 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:52,300 room for all of us to grow, right? 413 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:56,000 Myself included. This is new, its new stuff which 414 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,200 for me in our conversations becomes really exciting stuff, 415 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,100 right? The spaces in which kind of the 416 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:05,500 messy spaces on the edge that we're figuring out as we go in. 417 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:11,400 What advice do you have for design practitioners and other 418 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,900 business or nonprofit leaders who are at that pivot point 419 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 where you were a few years ago where they've done a portion of 420 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,900 their career. They've learned a lot. 421 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:24,400 They've experienced a lot and they're re-evaluating meeting. 422 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:27,100 What advice do you have for designers? 423 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,500 Who are in this moment? I think. 424 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:35,200 Did only reward comes from spending time with yourself, 425 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:38,200 right? And I have to stop. 426 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,700 There's a, you may know there was a famous Boston, Red Sox, 427 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,900 name, Oil Can Boyd, and he was having a great hot string, a 428 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:49,800 great, a great run of successes. And so it is an oil can what are 429 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,100 you know, what's your secret? And he said I'm playing Within 430 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,600 Myself and I think about that a lot right? 431 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,700 Because in in the world today, it's very easy to not be in our 432 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,300 Bodies anymore to be doing things that we think we have to 433 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:04,800 do to be addressing needs. That other people say, are 434 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,800 important to be reacting to social media to being seen 435 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,400 whatever it is, right. There's a million things and 436 00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:16,100 what it requires is really taking the time to think about 437 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,100 what it is that matters to you. And in in creative writing the 438 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,500 expression is, you know, that it has to be clear what the author 439 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:28,500 has come to say, what matters to you and not to devote your life 440 00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:31,100 to eye. And that has to be the guide and 441 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:35,500 as corny as it sounds, it's actually very difficult, but the 442 00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:38,800 most rewarding thing in the world and what we're seeing 443 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:41,900 today, right? We're in such a precarious 444 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,600 moment with democracy with the planet. 445 00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:51,000 None of us should feel any time to spend on things that don't 446 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,200 matter. And that don't further the 447 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,600 things that you're committed to in the things that you believe 448 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:56,900 in. It's so true. 449 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,200 And you know, what the last in our I'm recording. 450 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,900 Now the last 20 months. It's reinforced. 451 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:06,000 I've seen in all parts of our lives and spaces in there. 452 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:10,900 Is this break with these implied obligations, right? 453 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:14,800 The things we thought we needed to do the things that we had to 454 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,900 do. Kind of having that freedom 455 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,800 really, or taking that freedom to separate it. 456 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,100 And say, I want to have more control over my next job. 457 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:28,600 My next project, my next career, my next weekend, right? 458 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,100 We're seeing that but I I love your advice in the group because 459 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,600 that's what we have is, as members of our profession. 460 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,000 We are a dynamic space that's focused on change. 461 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,300 We're hearing more and more conversations of designers and 462 00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,900 Business Leaders, you know, wanting to find peers who can 463 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,900 help them think through, what's next, you know, if I can say, 464 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:52,400 there's another Kind of advice that I saw with every single 465 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,200 graduate student. Okay, and that is still really 466 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,600 one of the most important things and that is that we can only act 467 00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,200 on concrete things. Right? 468 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,300 So, in sustainability, it's called tapping, the power of 469 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:09,700 limits, right? When we have a limited amount of 470 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:11,200 time. We get really efficient and 471 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,300 creative about how we use it or money. 472 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,800 A lot of people come to the overwhelming. 473 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:21,800 Challenges and the number of things there are to do saying 474 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:25,900 I've got to end poverty. Or, you know, I have to find a 475 00:28:25,908 --> 00:28:29,700 cure for Co, whatever it is, right, and you can't ever act on 476 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:32,500 those because they're too abstract. 477 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,900 Right? And so, I would say, look around 478 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:43,200 at the things that You see that are very specific and concrete 479 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:46,400 and one of the things I wish designers would think about 480 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,500 because it affects all of us is, you know, all of this metaverse 481 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:53,800 and and the effect that social media are having on children and 482 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:55,600 everyone, right? Right. 483 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,500 That we're becoming so distanced from nature and the more 484 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,700 distance from nature. We become the more likely it is 485 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,500 that we're gonna self-destruct, right? 486 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:10,000 Are you know, how can design let, Young people know that 487 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,400 we're already living in a meta verse, right? 488 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,700 Nature is a meta verse. There's every bit of interest in 489 00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,800 richness and, and Adventure possible. 490 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:25,000 Can design act in service to that instead of doing more 491 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,000 websites and apps, and locking Us in to the same bad posture 492 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:31,900 sitting in front of are saying right. 493 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:32,900 Yeah. Exactly. 494 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:34,900 Yeah. We were talking a bit before 495 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:38,700 about kids and watching the evolving curiosity. 496 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:42,100 And growing in without the limits that adults put on them. 497 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:44,900 And keeping that freshness as we've learned and go through, 498 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:49,600 you know, one of the things that we spoke about as well as some 499 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,500 of the projects that you've been involved with, and we're talking 500 00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:57,400 about Youth and social impact. I'd love to hear a bit about the 501 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,800 program you've done with youth in the foster care system. 502 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:03,800 Sure. Well, the independent lives are 503 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,900 really, as a tangible conversation, right? 504 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,900 Yeah, and it's design is so, Central to it. 505 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,600 We I work in partnership with an amazing organization called 506 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,200 Community Solutions, and their program called built 40. 507 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,800 That is solving adult chronic and Veterans homelessness and a 508 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,700 wonderful Foundation. The Larsen Family Foundation is 509 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:33,800 supporting my efforts to help built 40 extend their work to 510 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,200 Foster youth. Hmm. 511 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:42,000 And what immediately becomes As a parent is that the system 512 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,100 isn't working, fifty percent of people who are homeless in this 513 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:50,000 country as adults were in the Foster system and nobody's 514 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,900 talking to young people about what they need or what it's like 515 00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:56,700 for them. And so, one of the things I'm 516 00:30:56,700 --> 00:31:00,600 doing is working with communities and helping them, 517 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:06,100 use design to bring young people into the conversation and to 518 00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:10,400 look at Journey maps and to have the Adult Community because a 519 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,800 lot of the agencies don't even know what other agencies do. 520 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Right. And, and in so many cases, they 521 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,800 had not ever looked at the journey for the people that 522 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,000 they're helping. They focus on Under 12. 523 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,500 And then over 12, it goes to somebody else and and so design 524 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:34,600 has become this extraordinary approach that has capacity to 525 00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:39,500 level the playing field, right? And one of the Founder of one of 526 00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:43,000 the nonprofit Services supports Foster youth said, you know, 527 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000 everybody knows they want to bring young people to the table, 528 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:47,500 but they don't know what to do with them. 529 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:51,000 Once they're there. Yeah, and so, the ways that 530 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,600 designed the approaches design brings to equalizing a room and 531 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,700 to supporting collaboration. All of these things are brand 532 00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:02,300 new and extraordinarily energizing for these Foster 533 00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:05,900 communities as we were preparing and having our conversation. 534 00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,700 It's just an incredible work that you're doing with the 535 00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:14,500 Project and really speaking of designs ability to empower, all 536 00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:15,900 those who are part of the process. 537 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:20,100 So this isn't designed happening to someone, but having Youth, 538 00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,500 who are experiencing the journey, be able to be empowered 539 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,900 and be a part of the code design, which you think it's 540 00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,500 really important. You know, we think about the 541 00:32:29,508 --> 00:32:31,900 space. Have there been other projects 542 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:36,300 that you've seen lately, that of quarter, attention, that you've 543 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:41,300 seen design really be Being Amplified and use well for 544 00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:47,800 social impact anything. I see a lot of things happening 545 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,800 within Academia. Okay. 546 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:58,400 I see institutions responding to what I think is a inherent 547 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,900 aspect of designers, which is they want purpose right? 548 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:05,400 Everyone wants purpose. Everyone wants to feel like 549 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,000 they're working on something that matters. 550 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:11,200 And so there are more University programs. 551 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,600 There are more centers. Yes, and some sometimes it's 552 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,000 tough to do it in the belly of Academia. 553 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,200 Sometimes it's a center that's associated with the university. 554 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,100 There's a new center at Northeastern. 555 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:30,600 There are things going on that are really encouraging, and I 556 00:33:30,608 --> 00:33:37,800 see a lot of programs that are focusing on integrating design. 557 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,900 The work that I mentioned in global Health. 558 00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:47,100 There's absolutely Real scale now in the number of 559 00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:52,100 organizations and companies that are using design to develop more 560 00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:56,100 effective programs and products for Global health. 561 00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:59,800 When you look at the kind of growth of the programs of the 562 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,000 space in the work towards you doing, is there anything that 563 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,500 you wish that other disciplines new in ways that they could be 564 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:12,400 partners and collaborators? I wish other disciplines knew 565 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,400 that this is not designed thinking, right. 566 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,900 I wish people would stop using that expression. 567 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,600 I said to someone at ASU he was like forget what country was 568 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,199 from is so country in Africa, and I said, well, you know, if 569 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,400 you were a Master Chef design, ticking would be a cake mix. 570 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,699 Would you use it? Yeah, so I think and I relate 571 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:37,699 this to our society in general, right? 572 00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:40,400 That everybody wants a quick fix and a sound. 573 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,900 And I wish they knew that design is rigorous and a real 574 00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:51,800 discipline, right? And that it is available to 575 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,100 anyone and has relevance everywhere. 576 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,900 And I think that's it's powerful to State and to State again and 577 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:04,800 to State again, right, that design has value and it's 578 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,500 accessible to anyone everywhere and it is a discipline with real 579 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:10,400 rigor. I know. 580 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,000 That in conversations, we have lot of design leaders and 581 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,400 Business Leaders. It's that connection point and 582 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,700 the translation of value that that were equal Partners in 583 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,600 peers at the table at the solution set. 584 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:25,400 You know, that design is important, part of that, but I 585 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,400 have conversations with many other Business Leaders. 586 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,700 And one of the things they ask me is how can I be a better 587 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:32,000 partner? And I, so appreciate your answer 588 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,600 in there because we have other disciplines that want to be a 589 00:35:35,608 --> 00:35:39,500 part in our common problem. It's at these big idea problems 590 00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:42,800 that we can come in and the practical ways to start. 591 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,600 I have one more question for you. 592 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,300 It's kind of spins off from what we were talking before, which 593 00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:53,200 I've Loved, but I want to talk a bit about your exhibition and 594 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,700 design for the other 90% at the cooper-hewitt design Museum. 595 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,800 See, I know it's a good topic whenever I hear you say, ah. 596 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:08,400 Well, yeah, I'd Paul Pollock who I think, I'm not sure if 597 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,900 everyone knows this but Paul Pollock was the best designer I 598 00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:15,200 ever knew. And he was not a designer. 599 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,600 He was a psychiatric researcher and an entrepreneur and he in 600 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,700 his youth developed a concept around social architecture. 601 00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,400 He was treating people who had mental breakdowns, right? 602 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,900 And trying to figure out why some people had them in other. 603 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,000 Student and recognize that there's a social hierarchy, 604 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,900 which now we called the social contributors to health right 605 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:42,300 poverty, you know, so, Paul knew that and he was a wonderful 606 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:47,800 natural designer and he always said I met him. 607 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,300 In fact, we all met him at the Aspen design Summit, which was 608 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,500 sponsored by aiga and the Aspen design conference. 609 00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:01,600 Paul said, the David Kelly said to him once he said, you know, 610 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,100 Paul you actually are designer and Paul said he came because he 611 00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:08,100 wanted to know if that was true. And if that was true, he had 612 00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:13,400 designs on the design community and he came to that, wanting 613 00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:17,700 people to know that all designers were only working for 614 00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:19,900 ten percent of the population that had money. 615 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,600 And so at the end of our three days and Aspen, I remember 616 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,400 sticking a note under his suspender and saying, because it 617 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,800 was Michael Cronin and Karen hibner and a couple Other people 618 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,900 and we and, and Willoughby. Absolutely. 619 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,600 We said we're not sure what you're doing or what you're 620 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,800 about. But we want to help you get 621 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:40,700 there. Right? 622 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:46,800 And that exhibit emerged from a week that we spent together at 623 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,200 Paul and his wife Aggies place in Nova Scotia. 624 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,800 And I sink, that was one of the biggest wake-up calls. 625 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:01,800 It was Purely Inspired by Paul. That was the first time that we 626 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:07,900 We showed evidence for what design can do in places where 627 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,500 nobody ever imagined designed going. 628 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,400 Right. And to me that opened the door 629 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,600 for a different way of thinking about what design is and what a 630 00:38:17,608 --> 00:38:21,200 designer can be. I love just the thought the 631 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,300 premise of it Partnerships, local Global individual, and at 632 00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:31,100 the organization level that are inventing unique ways to provide 633 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:35,200 better access. And it's just such critical 634 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,500 elements that we speak of in these projects Food, Water 635 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:42,300 Shelter, health, education and energy. 636 00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:46,900 And looking at how this comes together for a design for the 637 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:50,900 other 90%, I mean, it really speaks to the work that's 638 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,800 available for us to work. That needs to be done for 639 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,500 designers and Engineers students professors Architects, social 640 00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,500 Parchman errors or any of us, just finding a way that we can 641 00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:06,200 help to make things better. Can I just want to say one of 642 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,400 the things? Yes, always Paul was one of the 643 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,000 most important Inspirations in my life and a mentor and and I 644 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,200 got to spend lots of time with him over the years. 645 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,700 What's remarkable about him is that he did what he did and saw 646 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,600 what he saw because he was out in the world doing it. 647 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,000 He interviewed 3000 poor people. He went all over the world. 648 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,300 He spent time with farmers. Understanding why they were poor 649 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:40,300 and it's a little bit related to the question about what people 650 00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:41,500 should do. Right? 651 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,400 Paul was not a theoretician. It was very late in his life 652 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,600 that he stopped to think about the theory behind what he was 653 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,700 doing. He was just out there practicing 654 00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:50,800 what he said, cold radical practicality. 655 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:54,100 So I think it's the third piece of advice that I would give 656 00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:57,100 people don't sit around thinking about what you want to do, go 657 00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:01,400 out and learn from people what's needed and be out of the world. 658 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:07,900 I think that's a wonderful piece of advice and a powerful moment. 659 00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,200 I think for us to close out our conversation. 660 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,500 It's been an honor Cheryl to sit down and talk with you and and 661 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:19,000 explore these conversations and really kind of help our audience 662 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,800 shape, the power of impact of social Innovation design, and 663 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,600 design and social Innovation. So thinking about stopping 664 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,700 jumping in doing work where you are. 665 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,600 And I love the notion of this apartment. 666 00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:36,400 Al's radical practicality. So, as we think about turning a 667 00:40:36,408 --> 00:40:39,400 corner in 2022, is there anything you'd like to share 668 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,500 with our audience? This top of mind for you as we 669 00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:48,000 go into 2022? Yeah, I think one of the 670 00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:52,500 prerequisites for design and when you ask about how people 671 00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:56,800 can be better Partners designers are always willing to question 672 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,000 everything. Right? 673 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,400 And I think this moment and 2022, we have to include 674 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,100 ourselves in that. I think we have to question 675 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,700 everything. We automatically do everything 676 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:12,400 we think and think about how to be in the world in a way that 677 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,900 supports life. I think this is a wonderful way 678 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,500 to end our conversation today. Cheryl. 679 00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:22,800 I appreciate you. I appreciate your curiosity, 680 00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:27,600 your vision and your spirit of collaboration to help us all, 681 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,800 move forward better. So thank you for helping us play 682 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,700 around with the messy edges of the future. 683 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:37,300 Thank you, Benny. Well, thank you all for joining 684 00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:41,200 us on this episode of Designing adjacent where we look at the 685 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,700 future through the lens of design business, in the world 686 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:48,000 around us. I am your host, Vinnie Johnson. 687 00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:50,800 And I look forward to you joining us for our next podcast. 688 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,400 Show notes for this episode will be available on AIG a.org, 689 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,800 please subscribe to our show on anchor Apple, podcasts Google 690 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,500 play Spotify or wherever you get your podcast aiga. 691 00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:06,300 Design adjacent podcasts and its contents. 692 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:10,200 Are the copyright of aiga the professional association for 693 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:15,100 design All Rights Reserved, any redistribution or reproduction 694 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:18,600 of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited 695 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,200 without aig's Express written permission. 696 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:24,300 My name is Li Xian zhuang until next time.