1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,760 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,520 Podcast, the official podcast of AIGA, the professional 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,120 association for design. I'm Lee Sean Huang, Co Executive 4 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,600 Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, and on 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,360 this season of the show we have been exploring the intersection 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,080 of design and performance. Hello everyone, I'm Julia de 7 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:26,240 Napello, Design Competitions and Event Manager at AIGA. 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,240 And our guest this episode is Kevin Flores. 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,360 He's a product and design leader, founder and coach based 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,400 in San Jose, CA. He's worked with a variety of 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,400 companies, including LinkedIn, 23andMe and Verizon. 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,320 And he's also the author of this book that I have here, The 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,040 Design Career Handbook, Everything you need to know to 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,840 get a job and be successful. So today we're going to learn 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,320 more about Kevin, his career journey and also talk about his 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,160 new book. All right, Kevin, welcome to the 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,880 show. Hi there everyone. 18 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,520 Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's so great to have you 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,720 here. So let's just jump into things. 20 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,200 Tell us about yourself. This sounds like a job 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 interview, but it's not. Give us a highlights reel of 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,400 your career journey and creative lineage so far, your career path 23 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,000 to spend a lot of different things. 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,440 So yeah, what are some of how did you get here today? 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,240 Yeah. Thank you so much. 26 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,640 Yeah, I have an elevator pitch. I always start with saying that 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,880 I've done a bit of everything from running an agency to 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,240 working with early stage startups and in house at a few 29 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,360 big corporations as you said, like Verizon 23, me and 30 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,160 LinkedIn. Yeah, I studied industrial 31 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,840 design and I moved to Silicon Valley after graduating. 32 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,520 I was fortunate to start a company with friends early in my 33 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,760 career. We had a successful run up 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,800 untilthe.com crash and we landed some VC funding and pivoted into 35 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,720 software, which was great, although it turned out to be too 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,200 far removed from creative work. So I started freelancing and 37 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,640 consulting. I work with a number of startups 38 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,680 including one I Co founded and A2 for a celebrity. 39 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,280 And yeah, then in in startup plan, I felt like I was on a 40 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,199 repeat loop for a while and I had that grass is always greener 41 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:12,600 feeling. I saw friends and former 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,160 colleagues climbing corporate ladders and having more 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,400 responsibility leading teams more formally and obviously 44 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,520 working on, you know, higher visibility projects. 45 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,240 So I went in house and worked at those few companies. 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,000 I definitely learned a lot about broad longer term strategy and 47 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,600 working with teams, big teams, courting efforts, but honestly 48 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,040 that that my responsibility was narrower and everything was much 49 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040 slower than I had experienced before, which of course was 50 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,760 expected. So yeah, I always advise 51 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,600 designers to try it both if they can. 52 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,400 You know, it always depends on where they are in their career 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,760 stage or life stage or especially, you know, 54 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:57,680 recognizing how they best learn. Yeah, so on this point and the 55 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,440 spectrum maybe between different kinds of design teams, whether 56 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,200 it's like in house in a large corporate environment or a 57 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,360 scrappy startup or agency kind of context. 58 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,600 You might have maybe fast but sometimes a little chaotic in a 59 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,880 startup or agency environment and then maybe slow, but also 60 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,240 you learn a lot about managing relationships and and stuff like 61 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,880 that in a corporate environment. Is there like a sequence? 62 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,320 I mean, I, I think your advice is to try both or figure out 63 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,360 where you you are, but is there any advice that you give about 64 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,880 like where to start or how to figure out that balance of 65 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,360 somebody's thinking through their career as a designer? 66 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,520 Sure. I mean, I talk about it with 67 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,440 people I've mentor all the time and especially if they're 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,880 already working and they maybe have a year or two or a couple 69 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,480 years behind them. But honestly, it's, it's so 70 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,280 personal. So like there's some people that 71 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,120 I really, really push and go, you really need to go jump over 72 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,560 to startups and, and just try it out because you know, they're go 73 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,200 getters. They, they, they want to learn 74 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,320 faster. They want to really, they just 75 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,560 be in the weeds with lots of different things and there's 76 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,600 other people that, you know, they really need to learn at a 77 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,000 little bit more reserve pace or they need to be surrounded by 78 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,120 people at different levels, in which case, you know, work in a 79 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,920 large company may be a better fit for them. 80 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,440 So it's, it's very, very personal. 81 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,360 That's why I mentioned, you know, helping people recognize 82 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,040 how they best learn and, and where they are in their their 83 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,360 career stage when they might get nudged one way or the other. 84 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:23,840 Awesome. Very cool. 85 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,960 Kevin, you've you've described that you had a big break as 86 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,200 joining the deep dive project for the artist. 87 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,240 Will, I am where you you initially were hired for a 88 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,920 specific task and then ended up having to step up to a 89 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,440 leadership role. So for designers early in their 90 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,600 career listening to this podcast, what are ways that you 91 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,200 suggest and you recommend for them to demonstrate initiative 92 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,640 and show more of their work, even if in the beginning of the 93 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,920 their work is very narrow defined? 94 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,040 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 95 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,400 That that particular project was an interesting one, like what I 96 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,160 consider like my mid career was sort of like a not really a 97 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,600 pivot, but just a new direction. But but yeah, you hit the nail 98 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,280 on the head. I mean, I think today, like 99 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,760 design is like so segmented now, but even if your role is like 100 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,880 narrowly defined, I, I really advise designers not to 101 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,320 voluntarily box themselves in on what they can do or to set 102 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,240 limitations on, you know, developing their own skills. 103 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,000 You know, I, I think I, I was very fortunate that there were 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,840 just way fewer designers. Like 1015 plus years ago, we 105 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:39,520 were all just designers. We did a little bit of 106 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:40,760 everything. We didn't have so many 107 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,000 qualifying prefixes, but today, you know, of course, designers 108 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,240 have to focus on what they're responsible for. 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,400 But I, what I really, really advise all the time is just to 110 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,280 be a strong partner with product managers, engineers, marketers, 111 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:57,640 researchers, basically everybody and understanding what their 112 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,440 responsibilities are and collaborate as much as you can 113 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,240 on areas that they lead. You know, that can mean like 114 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,120 understanding, you know, better understanding business goals and 115 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,080 target metrics, or you know, when the design is like 116 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,520 technically easy or challenging to implement. 117 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:14,480 And of course, like really understanding research insights 118 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,480 and which ones might be the most influential. 119 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,480 That's literally like, you know, core to what you know, air 120 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,280 quotes are participating in strategy. 121 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:27,200 I know everyone throws around that phrase so much, but in 122 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,920 reality at his court means like contributing to product specs 123 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,680 and research and marketing plans and, and getting into those 124 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,720 conversations. So actively giving your thoughts 125 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,960 and your opinions and just speaking up and, and 126 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800 participating. And one other area that I always 127 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,280 mentioned designers, especially if they've been working for a 128 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:49,880 little bit that they should try to participate in more is 129 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,360 prioritizing and sequencing projects because it's a lot of 130 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,800 times it's dictated. But when you start to 131 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,960 participate, your voice starts to be heard in these different 132 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,200 areas and larger areas of responsibility. 133 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,840 Yeah, you're giving so much great advice right now. 134 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:10,720 I want to dig deeper into your point of view as a leader, as a 135 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,720 coach. You've used this term player, 136 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:20,680 coach, player dash, coach before and often for a designer, you 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,920 know, you become maybe you start out, most of us start out as 138 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,400 makers, right, who are doing things. 139 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,120 We're hands on, we're craftspeople. 140 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,040 We might become a leader, maybe a coach, but there is some 141 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,280 letting go of that day-to-day. So, you know, what are some of 142 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,040 these significant shifts and mindsets that designers should 143 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,080 think about as they're moving up into management and becoming 144 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,600 leaders? And yeah, how do you deal with 145 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,160 that identity shift and that task shift? 146 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,640 Sure, sure. First of all, I'm not even a 147 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,840 sporty person and I did not, I definitely did not invent the 148 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,080 the term player coach. But but I will say it's, it's 149 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,440 funny because we're in a we're in a weird place right now, 150 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,320 right? I mean, we're seeing job 151 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,600 descriptions for design managers where they're really presenting 152 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,760 high expectations for hands on work. 153 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,480 So it is sort of having a a little bit of a backward slide. 154 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,880 And I don't say that in a positive or negative, completely 155 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,240 positive or negative way. I certainly don't have a problem 156 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,600 with, you know, design leaders being hands on. 157 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,240 But it does represent a bit of a shift for, you know, towards 158 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,640 like these flat back to flatter organizations. 159 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,040 And one negative thing that can happen is just reducing that 160 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,520 strategic participation and ownership in other areas, kind 161 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,679 of like boxing us in, right? But you know, all that being 162 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,480 said, it it is tough not being as close to the making. 163 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,120 But really, if you want to manage, you really you have to 164 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,800 scale yourself and your impact. And the only way you do that is 165 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,120 like load balancing your time and your attention elsewhere. 166 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,080 And that's in all the obvious places, right? 167 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,200 It's in the people management, not just with the, you know, 168 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,920 people you may manage directly, but you know, in forming and 169 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,160 influencing stakeholders or collaborating closely with cross 170 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,240 functional partners and peers at the same time that you are 171 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,680 guiding designers that you do support or manage. 172 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,080 Another thing I'll say is that when you get to that management 173 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,160 stage, you have to trust your instinct a whole lot more 174 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,760 because you're often at that, you know, that front of the 175 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,480 ambiguity where strategies and planning are a lot more fuzzy. 176 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,800 And you know, one other thing I'll say about the whole 177 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,320 transitioning to management thing is that although there may 178 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,720 be ceilings on responsibility and income, it has been somewhat 179 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,560 normalized that you don't have to go in management, you know, 180 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:40,760 as the only route to growth and advancement. 181 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,120 You know, you can be a high level designer like some people 182 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,520 are calling it, a super senior or super IC and still have a lot 183 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,760 of influence at companies, which I think is great because not 184 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 everyone is interested in or frankly cut out to manage and 185 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,440 that's perfectly OK. Yeah. 186 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:02,400 You know, this conversation has me thinking about how designers, 187 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,800 we as designers can like reframe and have a more expansive 188 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,440 definition of design because I feel like that sort of sense of, 189 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,800 you know, giving U the hands on stuff and the sort of related 190 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,720 identity shift can be hard to navigate. 191 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,560 But I'm reminded of this Eames quote and this definition of 192 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:23,920 design. I think it was Charles, or maybe 193 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,960 it was Charles and Ray Eames who talked about design as a plan 194 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,040 for arranging elements in such a way to best accomplish a 195 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,120 particular purpose, right. And so that could be elements on 196 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,600 a page layout, but elements could also be like the design of 197 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,440 your team, right? And how do you staff people? 198 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,320 How do you, you know, figure out roles and, and things like that? 199 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,480 So there are different ways of thinking about, but maybe in 200 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,200 different canvases or different arenas that designers are are 201 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,240 working in. Yeah, for sure. 202 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,800 I mean, that's a whole practice, although you'll be seen it 203 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,920 expand and now it's contracting again, the whole you know, area 204 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,160 of like design operations where people you know, want to be 205 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,440 close to design and making, but they also are very interested in 206 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,040 organizational design and and that's a cool place to be as 207 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,600 well. Very cool. 208 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Yeah. So Speaking of some of the 209 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:14,800 devices that you're giving to designers out there, you 210 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,680 mentioned that you had a chance earlier in your career to work 211 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,040 at Verizon. And you have already said at 212 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,560 some point that a project that you were involved with with it's 213 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:31,560 a Gold 90 project was a product that failed even though it 214 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:36,640 received a lot of investment. And so how does this project, 215 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:41,800 how did it teach you about how to like for projects that didn't 216 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,800 go to your portfolio, for instance? 217 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,440 So what, what are the lessons that it it taught you on this 218 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,720 type of projects that don't really see the light or have a 219 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,480 very short life? And how do you advise the 220 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:02,120 designers to approach this not so successful experiences? 221 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,760 Yeah, yeah. First of all, yeah, Go 90 was a 222 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:12,280 huge video platform, consumer video product that not a lot of 223 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,000 people saw. But I will say that, you know, I 224 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,880 had a great run at Verizon and I was part of an innovation team. 225 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,400 Air quotes here again, we know what innovation teams has so 226 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,760 many connotations, but you know, so our team was loosely 227 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,480 associated with that particular project. 228 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,120 That being said, you know, the take away is really to build 229 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,040 upon your knowledge and skills with every single project. 230 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,800 Because after a while, you know, I know it's, it's it's very 231 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,200 difficult when you're early in career and you, you've only had 232 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,080 a handful of projects, but you know, rapidly by the time you're 233 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,280 like getting, you know, approaching mid career and 234 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,560 beyond, you're going to have hundreds of projects under your 235 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:48,720 belt. And then they're not all going 236 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,560 to be the best projects. They're not always going to be 237 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,840 successful. But you know, you just have to 238 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,240 learn from every single one and take something positive. 239 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,400 You know, some teams do post mortems and discuss whether a 240 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,080 project is successful or not. But it's especially in larger 241 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,040 companies, they're often performative. 242 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,240 I say because, you know, it lets people vent and be heard. 243 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,880 But you know, but they really aren't, they really are most 244 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,200 valuable when you actually go over a project and document what 245 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,400 did go well and what didn't so that you can leverage that for 246 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,160 next time. You know, and even if you don't 247 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,560 do that wherever you're working, you should still do that for 248 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:25,120 yourself. And but you know, it, it's, it 249 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,480 is, it's very cliche to say, but often the case that projects 250 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,400 that don't will don't do well, they fail for the most obvious 251 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,200 reasons. Like, you know, you know, they 252 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,080 had faulty business assumptions. Like every startup in history 253 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,040 provides the perfect hockey stick growth chart for adoption 254 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,360 or revenue or, you know, something closer to design is 255 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,080 like insights from user research or prototype were ignored. 256 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,200 So you just know it's not going to go well or the worst case 257 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,400 scenario is like no one wanted what was built. 258 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,360 I mean, the classic solution looking for a problem scenario. 259 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,560 But you know, as a designer, you just have to call those out and 260 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,440 do your best to steer projects in a direction that had more 261 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,600 solid validation or better supported assumptions. 262 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,240 And even if those projects you know don't turn out great and 263 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,800 don't make into your portfolio, you still have to like you still 264 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,520 have opportunity to learn from every project. 265 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,200 Awesome. Yeah, Yeah. 266 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:24,360 I really like your approach that we still should keep documented 267 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,120 in this reflective process of what we are doing, not 268 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,360 necessarily what the company is also doing like how we are 269 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,760 learning as we go. That's that's great. 270 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,600 So we also want to learn from you what what is inspiring you 271 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,800 right now? Is there any specific topic or 272 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,080 habit habit that you've engaged with that you want to share with 273 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,160 us? Yeah, I'll go. 274 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:52,640 I'll go. I'll share. 275 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Like a left field. Well, there's another sports 276 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,120 analogy, a left field response to this question. 277 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,400 I won't say anything about AI, but but two days ago we saw the 278 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,720 first images of the universe taken by the largest digital 279 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,440 camera ever. I don't know if you saw that. 280 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,080 And you know, we've seen now these colorful nebula that are 281 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,800 thousands of light years from Earth. 282 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,880 And this observatory in Chile is about, is, is expected to 283 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,320 discover like 20 billion new galaxies over the next decade. 284 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,920 So, and even though we can create these, you know, computer 285 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,120 generated images like those photos, these are millions of 286 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,720 real stars and planets and galaxies out there. 287 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,400 So it's kind of awe inspiring. And, and, and Lee, Sean, like a 288 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,080 connection to what you said earlier. 289 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,640 It reminded me of the short film Powers of 10. 290 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,160 Yeah, which in which everybody can find on YouTube. 291 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,120 I definitely recommend it. It was released in 1977. 292 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,200 We'll post it in the show notes. Yeah, for sure. 293 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,280 It's so funny because this is the second time this has come up 294 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,520 in a matter of weeks. And so it's definitely prompted 295 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,000 me to go back and take a look at it. 296 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,920 You know it. It's this very short film, 297 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,760 technically impressive for the time. 298 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,800 Starts with a couple people having a picnic in Chicago, then 299 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,840 zooms way out to the greater universe, then way back into an 300 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,560 atomic scale. But the connection here is that 301 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,320 it was written and directed by the design power couple of 302 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,640 Charles and Ray Eames. So yeah, I always tell designers 303 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,640 that they can find so much inspiration in the work that's 304 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,120 come before us. You know, that's another little 305 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,040 tiny topic that we touch upon in our book. 306 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,680 Very cool and related to with the topic of inspiration. 307 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,600 We usually ask this in the end of our episodes, but we're 308 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,000 trying to make some things here. So what is something? 309 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,960 So it could be a book, a movie, an exhibition, a piece of media 310 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,160 that you would like to recommend to our listeners. 311 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,560 Besides this, the YouTube video, The Power of 10. 312 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,760 Yeah. Yeah, so it's this is such a 313 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,480 tough question for me because I'm notorious for recommending 314 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,400 books. So we actually have a pretty 315 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,120 good book list on our own books website page and including this 316 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,760 one which I've recently revisited. 317 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,800 It's called Orbiting the Giant Hairball I. 318 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:07,480 Haven't heard of that one. Well. 319 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,160 Oh, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. 320 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,400 It's by a, a, a guy named Gordon Mackenzie. 321 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,800 He was, he worked at Hallmark Cards for like 30 years where he 322 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,599 had a self invented job title of creative paradox. 323 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,640 So I actually got this book years ago at a design leadership 324 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,800 event and I just kind of popped into my bookshelf and a few 325 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,720 months later I grabbed it before going on a camping trip, which I 326 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,720 I didn't know how inspiring it was going to be to consume out 327 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,760 in nature, especially because there was no cell coverage. 328 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,880 So there was no screens for days, which was great. 329 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,080 And I say consume because this is like a piece of art. 330 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,640 I mean, the whole book is, you know, it has poetry, it has 331 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,960 scribbly drawings, it has bookmarks here. 332 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,600 It has all kinds of, you know, different kind of types of art 333 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,880 and photography and colleges. And that's all surrounding 334 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,040 Gordon's, you know, anecdotes about work and, you know, he he 335 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,720 essentially talks about tapping into the collective creativity 336 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,880 and pushing off the the stifling forces of corporate 337 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,280 environments, which he refers to as the giant hairball. 338 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,200 Definitely recommend it. Very cool. 339 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:19,960 Thanks. I'll have. 340 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,120 To check that out as well. Yeah, thank you for sure. 341 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:23,920 And again, like all things, we'll post this in the show 342 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:29,360 notes for folks, but let's talk about your book now, Kevin. 343 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,000 So lift it up again for folks who are listening to the audio 344 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,760 only version, you can check this out on our YouTube channel. 345 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,680 But Kevin's book is called Design the Design Career 346 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,760 Handbook. So you've positioned it as in 347 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,880 quote, indispensable road map to a fulfilling career. 348 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:52,040 You wrote it with your partner and co-author Janine Flores to 349 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,520 help designers get a job and to be successful. 350 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,400 You acknowledge that there's a challenging job market right 351 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,080 now. It's a book that came out this 352 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,880 year. So you're well aware of the 353 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,560 context and even talked about it as like the worst time to come 354 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,040 up with a book of this kind. So can you tell us about your 355 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,400 motivation as why you wrote a book like this, certainly at 356 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,200 this time in the job market and yeah, how does this fill gaps or 357 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,280 maybe update advice given the difficult job market that 358 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,200 designers are facing right now? Yeah, yeah, for sure. 359 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,760 Yeah. As a quick background, Janine 360 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,880 and I worked together for more than half our careers so and 361 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,320 when I went to lead in house team, she started teaching 362 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,200 design. So we've both been managers and 363 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,080 mentors for, you know, all of our careers. 364 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,920 And then she added educator to her list. 365 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,280 Yeah, we basically, we saw an opportunity to compile our best 366 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,200 advice or practical advice from decades of working in all these 367 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,160 different environments, as we talked about already. 368 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,920 And, you know, we think it's a balance. 369 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,280 It's balance between reinforcing advice to designers here over 370 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,560 and over, as well as providing tips that, you know, they may 371 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,600 not have heard yet. So we definitely have opinions 372 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,320 on soft skills and and how to do things on the job and how it's a 373 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,800 little bit different than school, but you know, it's. 374 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,560 I think we say this too, we say this all the time, you know, 375 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,280 when I talk to people, I'm sure there's actual words in the book 376 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,720 that as much as we say that design has always been a 377 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,560 competitive field, yes, it is more challenging now, but but it 378 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,520 is a, it's a, it's a worthy and a valuable field as well. 379 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,680 So we just encourage people that if, if they really are 380 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,280 interested in, in being creative and in all the ways that that 381 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,360 means it's such a loaded term, but, and they really do want to 382 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,040 make a difference in the world and, and, and, and learn lots of 383 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,200 different skills. It is a great career to be in. 384 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,840 So, you know, we still pursue people or we still, we still 385 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,720 tell people to pursue it, like not to be dissuaded by what's 386 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,880 going on today. Yeah, Julie and I, Julie and I 387 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,040 gave a talk actually to some high school students in New York 388 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,960 City last week. They were doing a summer program 389 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,960 up at Columbia University and they invited AIGA to come talk 390 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,320 to them. And one of the things that we 391 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,880 talked about is that looking at the statistics alone, this is 392 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,560 based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics from the US federal 393 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,760 government, that graphic design narrowly defined is in decline 394 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,360 or it's not growing as quickly as a job type compared to even 395 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,720 though like the average coverage of jobs across the country. 396 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,640 But what we were trying to paint is like there's a fuller 397 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,400 picture. There's other design fields that 398 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,000 do not fall under that category. These government categories 399 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,440 actually are a little outdated and do not take into account 400 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,880 some newer design fields. And then also that like, even if 401 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,000 someone is interested in graphic design, that graphic 402 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,400 communication is more needed than ever, right, especially in 403 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,320 this social media age. And that there's other roles 404 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,640 that maybe are not graphic designer that are still that 405 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,440 somebody with a graphic design background could really add 406 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,840 value in and have a fulfilling career in. 407 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,440 So that's also something we've been talking about like, you 408 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,000 know, to the to the young people who are just embarking on their 409 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,600 careers and choosing what to study. 410 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,880 Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. 411 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,560 And I actually have some of those same slides and 412 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,640 presentations I give to students as well. 413 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,680 And you know, it, it's worth noting that, you know, not to 414 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,800 sound negative or disparaging to anybody that got into this 415 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,160 field. I'd say even pre pandemic, you 416 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,000 know, there's a lot of people that may have got into the field 417 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,760 for the wrong reasons. It just, it looked like a 418 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,640 lucrative career. It looked like, you know, I can 419 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,840 just be creative. And some of them really didn't 420 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,280 understand what design is. You know, we talked about this 421 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,680 also in the book that, you know, there's a, there's a subtle line 422 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,520 as well as a Venn diagram between art and design. 423 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,080 And, you know, you still are creative in it as a designer, 424 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,320 but it's so different depending on the different type of, you 425 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,040 know, specific area that you go into. 426 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,320 And, and you know, it's not necessarily better or worse, but 427 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,000 it's just different. And also the fact that, you 428 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,920 know, especially in technology and it's, you know, I'm, I'm 429 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,200 obviously that's the place that I've spent most of my career, 430 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,680 you know, there was just over hiring and not just the 431 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,320 designers, but of engineers and product people and marketing 432 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,240 people. So we're really, you know, 433 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,720 those, those, those, those stats are really just showing, you 434 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,440 know, a little bit of a leveling out that's happening or a course 435 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,120 correction. You know, it doesn't make it fun 436 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,640 for anybody that's job hunting. But you know, that's sort of the 437 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,520 reality. That's why I say like, if you 438 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,160 are passionate about it, to use a pretty cheesy word, but you 439 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,640 know, to kind of stick with it because designers aren't going 440 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,480 to continue to be needed. Totally. 441 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,120 Yeah. Oh, go ahead, Julia. 442 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,360 Yeah. And the other thing that we also 443 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,680 discussed with them because they were some of them were uncertain 444 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,040 of like what choices they might have for minor and major. 445 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,240 And I think something that also came up in the conversation that 446 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:55,040 is very much in line with what you said is the importance of 447 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,560 them also knowing more about business and marketing skills 448 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:05,440 because if they end up becoming a manager at some point, this is 449 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,800 so needed and not at that time is not really covered in in 450 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,000 design additional program. Yeah, for sure. 451 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Yeah. I, I, I won't go on too long 452 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,280 about that, but I, I certainly talk about that all the time, 453 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,480 especially when it comes to designers leveling up. 454 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,280 On one hand, we do have to acknowledge like design is very 455 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,960 expansive, expectations are very expansive. 456 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,960 The skills required, you know, there's so much confusion 457 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,440 because of the fact there's so many different types of job 458 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:33,920 titles. Like what do you, what can you 459 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,320 actually do? But you know, once you start to 460 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,320 kind of get a handle on what you're good at, what you like to 461 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,080 do, that's when you need to kind of branch out and understand 462 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,840 some of these other, other areas of responsibility and 463 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,040 participate because they, you know, you need to participate in 464 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,360 all those as you move up the ranks quite a bit. 465 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,400 And, and it is a surprise for some people for sure. 466 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,680 I think that's the perfect segue to this follow up question about 467 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,240 what you've called day-to-day or soft skills that aren't 468 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,120 necessarily taught in design schools. 469 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,520 Other curricula are changing, but I went to school a long time 470 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,520 ago. You know, there's this point 471 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,840 even on the sort of technical side of design, right, that 472 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,520 tools change all the time. I don't even remember how many 473 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,480 versions of the Adobe products that I've, you know, used over 474 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,640 the decades, right? But they're constantly now 475 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,960 pushing updates and things like that. 476 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,440 So there's always that stuff to learn. 477 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,040 There's the AI stuff that we can talk about later. 478 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,080 But then there's also these like human skills, soft skills. 479 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,680 We've alluded to it earlier in this conversation without 480 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,480 dealing with say, like office politics or managing clients and 481 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,840 managing up, you know, all of these things I think fall under 482 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,640 this big umbrella and you deal with that in your book as well. 483 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,080 So can you speak to that? Yeah, yeah, one sentence on 484 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,760 tools, as I tell designers all the time, as I'm sure many of 485 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,400 you do, and some of your guests, like don't define yourself by 486 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,080 the tools you use. You know, I also, I have a slide 487 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,440 where there's like literally 100 different software types. 488 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,440 I'm like, yeah, I was proficient or consider my expert at all of 489 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,640 these. Like not even 110th of them 490 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,760 still exist today. That's not the point. 491 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,080 So yeah, for sure. But yeah, the soft skills, you 492 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,600 know, it's not so much that they're not encountered in 493 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,920 school like design programs do you know, of course they include 494 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,680 collaboration and group projects and communication and 495 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,560 presentation. But there is more context really 496 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,440 needed about doing it on the job. 497 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,560 And, you know, this, this maybe we'll talk about it later. 498 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,720 But this gets into the whole, you know, I'm just going to say 499 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,440 this word. It's it's it, it implies a 500 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,480 little bit more of a negative connotation that I mean it to. 501 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,280 But this fetishization with design process, like we have to 502 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,200 follow the process and when we get too rigid and all of these 503 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,880 things, that's when, you know, we grow a lot slower and people 504 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,120 don't want to work with us because we're we don't exhibit 505 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,520 as much flexibility and ability to kind of navigate in the 506 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,760 moment. So yeah, communicating and doing 507 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,320 things on the job are a lot more fluid and you have to like right 508 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,920 size, you know, how you interact with people and how do you 509 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,400 communicate with people. And you know, like, for example, 510 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,960 when you're presenting work that you do the stage that you're at, 511 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,760 if you're early stage, kind of scrap your design and you're 512 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760 meeting with your design partners, you know, you can be 513 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,960 very loose and and very open. But when you're presenting with 514 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,560 stakeholders, you want to get to the point you want to get to 515 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,520 like, you know, the farther along work, not get too bogged 516 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,360 down in the back story of how you got there. 517 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,320 So there's there's you know, there's quite an art to that and 518 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,440 it takes practice. One other thing that I will say 519 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,000 about, you know, in sort of the soft skills area that's really 520 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,160 not talked about enough, especially at the student level, 521 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,680 is that basic time management is so important when you're a 522 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,040 working designer, right? I mean, when you're a working 523 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,280 designer, you're on the hook to deliver things on a schedule and 524 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,720 also you're also trying to or expected to constantly level up. 525 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,360 So, you know, effectively, effectively managing your time. 526 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,640 It varies for everyone. So I tell people, you know, just 527 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,760 be aware of like what takes you longer to do and what things are 528 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,520 come easier to you so that you can actually more actively 529 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,960 schedule your time effectively. Yeah. 530 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,400 And also to the fact that many designers at some point their 531 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,720 careers become a freelancer. And so they also have to manage 532 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,520 and plan and manage their time. And I remember last year we in 533 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,120 the AIJA conference, we had one session that was specifically on 534 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,440 measuring the impact of design work. 535 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,160 And one of the topics that the the speaker brought was a lot on 536 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,440 time management. And it was like a very, yeah, 537 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,720 popular session. So it seems like designers 538 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,440 wanted to learn more on how to improve in that sense. 539 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Yeah, I've, yeah, freelancing. That's, that's an absolute great 540 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,120 example cuz every hour extra you spend is your hourly rate just 541 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,440 dropped it or cut got cut in half in some cases. 542 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,000 So yeah, time management is super critical. 543 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,400 Yeah. So Kevin, you have throughout 544 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,560 your career reviewed many designer CVS, portfolios and 545 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,240 also interviewed many designers for your previous roles but also 546 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,320 for your book. Can you share anything specific 547 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,200 that has stuck out for you? Like what makes a designer stand 548 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,160 out in the crowd? Yeah, it, it's definitely harder 549 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,040 to stand out today. So, you know, I'd say imposter 550 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,600 syndrome, for example, was already hot topic among 551 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,440 designers forever. But, you know, I'd say it's like 552 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,520 10 times worse today because of the sheer amount of competition, 553 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,240 you know, for jobs to sort of raise that feeling, you know, 554 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,320 and I, I wish I could say that like every, you know, being just 555 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,120 being an excellent designer is qualification enough to get 556 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,360 hired. But but really, it's become more 557 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,320 and more important to stand out with a personal brand. 558 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,440 And you know, I'm not just talking about like a visual 559 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,720 style or flair or, or sharing that you like to go hiking, but 560 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,600 you know, just like design, we have to get to the the why 561 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,640 behind those aspects of yourself. 562 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,600 And you know, your personal brand has to really highlight 563 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,000 what's unique about you. So I tell people like you are 564 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,920 the thing that's unique. Like you, your great work will 565 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,720 be compared with somebody else's great work. 566 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,200 And then how do you differentiate or how do you 567 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,240 become memorable? And you know, when you have your 568 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,800 individual beliefs or your personal experience, and it's 569 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,360 clear that they influence how you carry yourself, how you 570 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,280 communicate and, and even in your work, your work decisions 571 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,800 like those are going to make you memorable when you interview 572 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,080 with companies and, and it they may actually be the 573 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,320 differentiating reason why somebody will say, like, I want 574 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,560 to have that person on my team. So you have to really think more 575 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,880 about that personal brand beyond the kind of surface for sure. 576 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,640 Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, on that point, you know, 577 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:07,240 one way to stand out is maybe to have a point of view that maybe 578 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,120 goes against the grade or common science best practice. 579 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,400 I'm going to stir up some controversy here with this next 580 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,720 question. But what are some widely 581 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,120 accepted, like common science or best practice advice that is 582 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,840 given to job seekers, to designers in their careers that 583 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,520 you believe is actually flawed or maybe just outdated, you 584 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,560 know, something that doesn't really make sense anymore? 585 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:29,680 Yeah. What? 586 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,680 What is some conventional wisdom that you would like to argue 587 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,240 against? Sure. 588 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,800 I think I, I think I dropped a little bit of a hint earlier 589 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,200 mentioning design process and I'll kind of bundle with that 590 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,760 design thinking. Now, don't get me wrong, I 591 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,880 believe in everything that design thinking represents like 592 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,560 human centeredness and and in deep research and iterative 593 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,560 prototyping and all of that. And of course, I've adopted my 594 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,200 teams have used processes like the double diamond. 595 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,200 But I have a joke in in that presentation I mentioned that I 596 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,800 give students and it's basically that the first rule of design 597 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,920 process is you do not talk about design process. 598 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,880 For anybody, it's just like Fight Club. 599 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,560 There you go, that's a Fight Club reference to everybody. 600 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,760 But I started sharing that advice mostly in regards to like 601 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,720 day-to-day work, when I saw two things happening in the 602 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,280 industry. The 1st is that, you know, air 603 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,360 quotes here, everyone became a designer. 604 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520 Of course they did, because we invited partners to collaborate 605 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,640 in design sprints and research and prototypes even before 606 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,800 Figma. And, you know, they saw that the 607 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,480 fun parts of the design process were easy. 608 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,440 And so everyone became confident in their design opinions without 609 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,880 participating in that. And you know, what's essentially 610 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,760 the deep design work? And the second was that, you 611 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,360 know, we as designers, we projected that what we do is so 612 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,440 important that others need to learn about it. 613 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,960 They, you know, we need to teach them. 614 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,440 Now. There's always going to be a 615 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,400 certain level of evangelism that we're responsible for. 616 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,840 But you know, as we were talking about earlier, like designers 617 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,640 don't quite reciprocate by learning more about business and 618 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,760 engineering complexity. So, you know, again, I remind 619 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,760 designers all the time that processes and frameworks are 620 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,000 meant to be references. They're not meant to be followed 621 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,120 as a rule book. They need to be modified and 622 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,880 adapted for specific situation, different projects, 623 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,800 opportunities and constraints. So not to be so, you know, dead 624 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,920 set and and siloed with, you know, following some rigid 625 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,680 process. I think that's a really great 626 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,600 point. You know, especially in terms of 627 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 like because there was a shortage of designers a few 628 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,840 years ago and these, you know, different boot camps and other 629 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,760 alternatives to traditional design school popped up. 630 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,080 And sometimes they would teach like very specific methods. 631 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,040 And, and this happens in traditional design schools as 632 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,840 well. So I'm not singling out boot 633 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,280 camps or anything like that, but there was definitely when you 634 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,720 have an accelerated track to learn design, it does serve as a 635 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,440 kind of training wheels version of the design process. 636 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,920 But I don't know, certainly in every agency context I've worked 637 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,360 in over the years, like nobody really had like a rigid process. 638 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,800 And we have, it's like now is on to the next stage, right? 639 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,600 Like sometimes we'd have like a set process that was really 640 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,080 meant for like project management and client 641 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,800 management. But in terms of the day-to-day 642 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,360 creative, like, you know, anything can, anything could 643 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,520 happen, right? For sure, yeah, like you said, I 644 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,080 mean, are there to be referenced like I'm sure I have the design 645 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,920 Sprint handbook behind me and I definitely have used some of 646 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,159 that exact five day design spread format. 647 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,440 I think I'd use it one time, but every other time was like 648 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,840 adapting for the specific project or resources or goal or 649 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,920 scope of a project. And yeah, my wife, obviously she 650 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000 teaches design Janine and you know, she talks about the design 651 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,960 process. And I think I think one thing 652 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,800 that's good for earlier career designers or even students that 653 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,320 she describes it as, it's like, hey, it's there as a reference 654 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,320 to fall back on when you do sort of lose your way or get kind of 655 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,719 stuck. It's not meant to be like the 656 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,680 Stebyste way you do design. O The Design Career Handbook. 657 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,800 It's a big book, but it's also very readable, conversational in 658 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,040 terms of advice. But I always like to ask us of 659 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,400 creative people about their large projects. 660 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,400 Is there anything that ended up on the cutting room floor that 661 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,880 just didn't work out? Or maybe you just ran out of 662 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,640 time and you wish you could have included? 663 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,360 Or maybe it's the start of a future project. 664 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,680 Yeah. What's not in the book that you 665 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,000 wish were in the book, or that you might want to explore? 666 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,480 For sure, for sure. First of all, thanks for, you 667 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,640 know, commenting that. It's very readable. 668 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,400 There's definitely a lot of topics in there. 669 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,600 And I think we say right in the intro, there's a lot of topics 670 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,000 in here, but we get right to the point. 671 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,320 That's why we call it a handbook. 672 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,920 And we definitely aim for it to be like Evergreen, meaning, you 673 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,600 know, that hopefully won't be outdated very quickly. 674 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,720 But the first thing I'll say is like, despite writing it during 675 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,000 the hype and the crazy pace of AI development, we only 676 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,080 mentioned it briefly, but it really was, you know, not out of 677 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,160 disinterest and but more so to double down on our belief that 678 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,880 the advice that our most for areas that are in our control 679 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,840 will remain important and valid. So that's that's how we thought 680 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,800 about that. The second thing that didn't 681 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,600 make it in, which is what I call like Spicer stories that I 682 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,200 wanted to share, but they just didn't feel right for the 683 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,000 format. But I've got the writing bug, so 684 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,360 they're definitely part of what I'm ready working on now. 685 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,560 Awesome. Well, thank you for that preview 686 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,640 and teaser. A little hint. 687 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:25,720 Yeah. Hint, hint. 688 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:28,520 Yeah, we'll have. We'll have to have you back when 689 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,560 your nextbook drops. Cool. 690 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,320 So I wanted to transition now to a topic that a lot of people are 691 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:42,000 talking about, sometimes out of frustration, fear, sometimes eye 692 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,560 rolling, just people are just not into it. 693 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,120 And that is AI. So you've before we get to AI 694 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,160 actually, you've talked about blurring these boundaries of 695 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,800 product and design and nudging designers to consider other 696 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,560 roles, whether it's product management or other things like 697 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,120 that. So there are these other 698 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,640 critical skills that we've been talking about that are 699 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,040 transferable skills for designers. 700 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,440 So before we get into like, the specific stuff of AI, which even 701 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,600 by the time this episode dropped, something might have 702 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040 happened, right? Because it's moving so fast. 703 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,800 Like, what are some of these, like, Evergreen skills that you 704 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,720 see that designers should really be cultivating regardless of the 705 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:28,720 tools? And then we'll get to the AI 706 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:30,440 questions. Yeah. 707 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,960 I won't go too deep, but you know, we, we touched upon it a 708 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,760 little bit, but it's, it's, it's, it's what we talked about 709 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,960 earlier, like especially understanding a bit more about 710 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,720 business and product management and strategy. 711 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,680 And you know, from a very high level, that really just means 712 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,600 like understanding the business model. 713 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,000 I mean, you're working in an environment that's like AB2B or 714 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,440 B2C or marketplace or, you know, even if it's a non profit, 715 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,480 there's still money being made and spent. 716 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,280 So you have to understand that. You have to understand how value 717 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,600 is captured. Is it again, is it monetary? 718 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,720 Is it data? Is it advertising? 719 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,440 You have to be attuned to goals and metrics. 720 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,480 You have to know all those three letter, four letter acronyms, 721 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,040 you know, OK, you know, OK, Rs, KPISROYDAU, you know, like all 722 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,920 of the acronyms. And, and most importantly 723 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,440 though, as I said, you have to get invested in the road map. 724 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,240 You have to understand and participate in strategy, 725 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,080 prioritization, planning, timelines and all of that. 726 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,320 It's also very helpful to, you know, work closely with, you 727 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,800 know, the the more hardcore builders like the coders, the 728 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,080 engineers, because there's a lot of respect that comes when you 729 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,040 know that something's very difficult to build, you know, 730 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,200 the complexity, but it also empowers you in, in the other 731 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,680 way when you hear back, oh, that's going to take 10 weeks, 732 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,840 Like, no, this is going to take you like 2 weeks, come on. 733 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,480 So it always just makes you a better partner when you, when 734 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,360 you understand the responsibilities of your 735 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,640 partners. And you know, I think you said 736 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,640 Julie Julia earlier about, you know, again, it's such a cliche 737 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,520 thing to say, but you have to know how connect, how to connect 738 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,080 your work, your design to the business or to the outcomes. 739 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,960 And the only way you do that is by understanding how it fits 740 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,920 into all that sets of responsibilities. 741 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,680 Yeah, that's very true. Let's dive into the AI questions 742 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,720 down that are on everybody's mind. 743 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,960 So you have expressed strong views on AI before, emphasizing 744 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,880 the need to be responsible. Responsible in integrating it 745 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,720 into our work flows and not just like using it a shortcut for 746 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,320 critical thinking or decision making. 747 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,160 So what kind of advice do you have for designers to 748 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,960 responsibly integrate AI into our processes? 749 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,560 Yeah, it's it is crazy, right? I mean, we can't get away from 750 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,600 this topic. It's, it's, it's ever present. 751 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,640 So many memes, good ones, bad ones, frustrating ones for sure. 752 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,160 I mean, the first thing I'll say is that when it comes to 753 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,040 responsible and ethical AI usage, everyone needs to 754 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,000 identify the criteria for their own red lines. 755 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,880 You know, a few that come to mind are it may be the amount of 756 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,960 AI you use. Like I think everyone needs to 757 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:14,200 Google AI environmental impact, you know, because for for one 758 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,480 reference that I just read recently is like there's a study 759 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,760 that has estimated AI will account for half the total data 760 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,200 power. Data center power usage by end 761 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,080 of this year. That's, that's crazy. 762 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,760 You know, the anecdotes of like 3 Mile Island being fired up to 763 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,480 power AI for a specific customer. 764 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,280 Another one is like, if you, you know, decide not to use AI tools 765 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,360 that were trained on copyrighted material without permission. 766 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,840 And you know, some of those are very, very known. 767 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,120 Of course, you have to, you know, own the decisions in, in 768 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,840 any process that uses AI. You know, that's, that's that, 769 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,840 you know, brings up another topic that comes up a lot, which 770 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,560 is this whole idea. And a lot of articles were came 771 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,400 out in the last handful of months, social media about taste 772 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,160 being essential in the age of AI. 773 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,200 But you know, the last thing I'll say is that I'm a 774 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,240 technologist at heart. So I'm torn. 775 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:13,760 I mean, I'm also playing with the tools, but I feel like a 776 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,320 curmudgeon when I cite studies about the concerns, whether they 777 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:18,760 be the ones that we just talked about. 778 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,080 But just the other day, there was an MIT brain scan study on 779 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:28,000 ChatGPT users that aligns with previous academic studies on, 780 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,480 you know, cognitive decline. So as designers and design 781 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,520 thinkers, it's, it is very, you know, alarming to me, you know, 782 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:37,840 that we have to find this balance. 783 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,080 So I do you know, all that being said, designers must experiment 784 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,920 with the tools to understand their capabilities, to figure 785 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,240 out what amount and where to fit them in our processes, and most 786 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,000 importantly, to actively participate in deciding how they 787 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,440 are used. Because if we don't participate, 788 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,000 they are being used by other people. 789 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,920 So we have to really be there as well. 790 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,000 Yeah, there's some great points. I mean, how are there some 791 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,800 examples that you can share of how you incorporate AI into your 792 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,400 work flows? I am on the lighter side like 793 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,520 you, I think you mentioned earlier, like I've been playing 794 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,880 with some of the tools. I definitely play with some of 795 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,680 the image generation tools early on. 796 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,440 I'm a little bit of a humble brag here. 797 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,760 I installed dab Stable Diffusion on my local machine, command 798 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,680 line and all that, but it was more out of not wanting to pay a 799 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,240 server somewhere to generate images to test them out. 800 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,960 And I've definitely, you know, experimented with Chachi PT and 801 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:39,960 notebook LM and I've been, I'm paying very close attention, but 802 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:44,480 admittedly, I haven't done any vibe coding directly myself yet. 803 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,040 And, you know, again, I'm very torn. 804 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,040 You know, I we came up with all kinds of experimental tools and 805 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,600 so I can't say you shouldn't do that or it's wrong. 806 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,480 But on the other hand, there are all these other concerns that 807 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,160 are just different today. So yeah, so I'm very, very torn 808 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,560 and more on the cautiously optimistic and poking around a 809 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,360 great number of tools. Totally, yeah, For me, it's like 810 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,760 the generative image stuff as it's like it was a novelty and 811 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,680 for a few hours I'd like played with it. 812 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,800 It's like, oh, look at what can I make right? 813 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,240 But it's still very much like there's a certain aesthetic and 814 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:22,480 you can tell for most of these things, although that's changing 815 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,360 quickly. And then I think it's more the 816 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,440 large language models that I use, like preparing for this 817 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,480 podcast, like feeding it previous interviews that you had 818 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,920 done and and things like that to maybe just like fill in some 819 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,440 spots where that I'm not able to like fully process and 820 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,200 synthesize information myself. But yeah, I'm still figuring it 821 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,280 out as well. Yeah, I I agree. 822 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,960 Some of those areas I think are very promising, although again, 823 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,960 they always have a flip side. So for example, even something 824 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,400 as innocuous as like meeting notes and action items, I think 825 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,080 that's pretty cool. You know, they can read 826 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,920 transcripts and and summarize things. 827 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,280 But once again, I think we have to remain the humans in the 828 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,120 process. I know in a similar way, an area 829 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,760 that it's being experimented a lot. 830 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,400 And I've talked to user researchers and how they're 831 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,200 using it to synthesize interviews, for example, is 832 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,880 they're they're excited about it because it definitely is 833 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,120 speeding up some things. But they're also like, but we 834 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,080 have to also double check everything and make sure we we 835 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,040 agree with some of the assumptions or some of the ways 836 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,240 that, you know, the synthesis has has surfaced the most 837 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:28,800 important takeaways, for example. 838 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,480 And I definitely talked to user researchers that are like, 839 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,720 please don't automate our process. 840 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,960 Yeah, but it's, but it's definitely being experimented 841 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,080 with for sure. Yeah, and those hallucinations 842 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,000 are real. I've talked about this before on 843 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,320 a previous episode of the show, but somebody like basically 844 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,520 somebody had like asked ChatGPT about some UX topic and it had 845 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:55,000 and ChatGPT like suggested her a book that I supposedly wrote but 846 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,040 I did not write. But it was like, I'm real. 847 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,760 The publisher was real, but the book was fake. 848 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,040 And so this person actually emailed the publisher and me 849 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,920 like she, she found us asking like, oh, when is the release 850 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,960 date of this book? And both of us were like, this 851 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,400 is not a real book, but yeah, so stuff like that happens too. 852 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,120 So you definitely have to check your real sources. 853 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,480 I'll give you a super quick I'll kind of steal an anecdote or 854 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,480 actually share an anecdote that Janine had recently. 855 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,640 So she has an assignment in her class for the students to 856 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,200 identify. So it's a very designer thing to 857 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,680 talk about here, you know, to identify Helvetica out in the 858 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,680 wild, like find an example of Helvetica. 859 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,680 And somebody had provided this sample, and Janine was like, 860 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,240 pretty certain it wasn't Helvetica. 861 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,360 And she uploaded it to ChatGPT and said, hey, what font is 862 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,160 this? And Chachi PT was insistent that 863 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,840 it was Helvetica. And Janine started talking with 864 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,680 Chachi PT saying, like, oh, but this counter looks different. 865 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,320 And this descender is not quite right. 866 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:55,040 And it was like, oh, you're right. 867 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,280 You're very observant. You're right. 868 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,960 That is not Helvetica. And it was kind of like, you 869 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,800 know, if she would have just accepted the first answer, it 870 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,600 was wrong. And it was very confident. 871 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,160 So yeah, hallucinations are real even in, you know, such a small 872 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,400 example. Inconsequential example. 873 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,280 I it's funny that you're saying this because a couple weeks back 874 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,200 I went to an event and we had neuroscientists and behavioral 875 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,400 scientists speaking also about AI. 876 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,040 And one of the things that I think it was a speaker from 877 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,280 Google, One of the things that she said was that the rationale 878 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:39,040 of these systems are built to please us as a user. 879 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,280 So the more critical we are when we're requesting something and 880 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,600 even re requesting like you mentioned that your partner did 881 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,360 is when you actually get more to a productive engagement, let's 882 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,360 say. So that made me think of how we 883 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,640 still need to have a lot of critical thinking when we're 884 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:07,400 engaging with these models because again, these things can 885 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,840 happen, right? That the the first answer is 886 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,480 very untrue or. Right. 887 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,720 Yeah, it's, it's very easy to get overconfident as well. 888 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,600 And I think that's the, that's the biggest thing that makes me 889 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,440 the most nervous is the fact that, you know, we hear this all 890 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,760 the time that AI is going to eliminate the repetitive work. 891 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,920 AI is going to allow us all to do higher level thinking or 892 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,120 higher level work. And, you know, I kind of 893 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,840 frankly, I laugh at that. I'm like, today, nobody's 894 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,480 working less hours than they did 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 895 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,040 We're probably all working more hours. 896 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,440 And, you know, that's just the time element of it. 897 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:49,360 But more importantly, This is why I get so nervous and and by 898 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,080 extension, Janine, because she's interacting with students every, 899 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:58,040 every year, is that that work is really necessary to build up 900 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,480 design knowledge and design sense and the ability to make 901 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,360 these decisions. And so if that works, being 902 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,280 automated, how are people supposed to get started in this 903 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,560 field? And how are they supposed to 904 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,200 build up their own sensibilities about good design and successful 905 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,360 design if they don't have that opportunity to get in what I 906 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,600 call like those reps, you know, because it takes, you know, like 907 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,800 I said, dozens to hundreds of projects before you're 908 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,360 comfortable, you know, having the ability to make decisions 909 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,040 with less information and, you know, trusting in your gut as 910 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,120 opposed to just believing everything that's generated is 911 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,760 going to be the best solution or the most ideal solution. 912 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,480 Yeah, that reminds me of the most recent episode of John 913 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,960 Oliver show Last Week Tonight, where he was talking about AI 914 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,320 slop and it featured a clip from like a an angry Pinterest user 915 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,960 who was complaining about all of the AI generated images on 916 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,680 Pinterest. But I think it goes back to that 917 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,680 too. It's like, OK, our feeds are 918 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,280 increasingly AI generated images. 919 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,520 Like even the things that were like inspired by in our mood 920 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,200 boards are like kind of, you know, sausage made out of 921 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,360 sausage kind of stuff rather than the primary things, right? 922 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,720 So I think that's another, yeah, just reminder to have to go out, 923 00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:18,520 whether it's the books to museums, to other places that 924 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,200 are really like the source of things rather than the kind of 925 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,280 regurgitated, reimagined stuff, right. 926 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:26,920 Right, right. Absolutely. 927 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,600 I mean, yes, again, I'm sure it sounds, it sounds very similar. 928 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,760 Like we have to encourage early career designers to get out 929 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,480 there to pick up books, to go look at what magazines are still 930 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,760 out there. Thankfully, record albums are 931 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,480 coming back. So there's art that we used to 932 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,280 be inspired by before, but literally like museums and parks 933 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,840 and signage, we have to experience these things out 934 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,600 there because they're so they're just so important for us to 935 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,160 develop our opinions and our points of views, as you 936 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,880 mentioned earlier. It's yeah, it's, it's it reminds 937 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,800 me of, you know, this little spin off topic around AI that 938 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,680 was, really was and probably is going to remain popular for a 939 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,240 while, which is, you know, a lot of people saying like taste is 940 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:13,000 really, you know, it's required in this age of AI. 941 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,520 And, you know, for anybody that's ever worked in 942 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,440 entertainment, like I did for a while, like, you know, it used 943 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,560 to be this term called tastemaker. 944 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,440 And you know, the whole idea of having taste is on one hand, it 945 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,520 can be very opinionated and just people just have opinions and 946 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,560 what they say is cool, people believe is cool. 947 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,480 But I, I always compare taste and I wrote a little bit about 948 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:41,120 this on sub stack on sub stack that taste for designers is, is 949 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,320 really what we call like design sense. 950 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,520 And what does that mean? Like in practicality, it means 951 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,080 that, you know, we've developed a sensibility based on 952 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,280 understanding design foundations and what is good and what is bad 953 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,240 design, say good and bad, even though, you know, the more 954 00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,640 proper words are successful and unsuccessful. 955 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,160 But but you all and hopefully all the designers out here know 956 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,840 that's a stand in for good and bad. 957 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,040 And you know, and this is this is also a very designerly thing 958 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,840 to say, but recognizing when like some rule is broken, 959 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,040 whether it's intentional or not intentional, right? 960 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,200 We always say that's a good mark of a designer as they know when 961 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,800 to break the rules or you know, they intentionally will break 962 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,760 the rules. But, you know, so designers have 963 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,520 these frameworks and these skills to recognize quality or 964 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,400 to judge quality and success. And that's what develops, you 965 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,080 know, a good eye for detail. And, you know, and the whole 966 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,720 human centered design kind of perspective means that we really 967 00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:44,040 always keep the end users in mind, you know, the audience in 968 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,520 mind. And so we don't, you know, just 969 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,320 blindly accept, like I said, everything that's generated as 970 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,560 the best solution or ideal one. But as designers, we know to 971 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,320 keep digging deeper and like why this is a good decision or a 972 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,520 better decision because they're founded in some things that are 973 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,000 deeper rooted in US. Yeah. 974 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:08,400 And Speaking of that, Speaking of that, do you, do you have any 975 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:15,240 suggestion on how designers can continue cultivating their 976 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,840 design sense or taste in especially now in the era of AI? 977 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,160 Yeah, yeah, I think we've talked about it like 3 times, right? 978 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,920 It's like we designers have to get away from screens. 979 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,920 It's literally, you know, whether it's a small screen or 980 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,520 even the computer screen, like there's so much influence out 981 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,000 there and things that we can learn from, from the past. 982 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,560 You know, it's so funny when people see like a really cool 983 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,440 designer puts out this work. And you know, if, if you've 984 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,680 studied design, like 9 times out of 10, they were influenced by 985 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,920 some great artists in the past or some artistic movement, you 986 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,760 know, like, you know, deconstructivism or Art Deco or 987 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,440 whatever it may be. And you know, now all of a 988 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:57,760 sudden they're a rock star designer. 989 00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,520 Well, they just did that little bit of homework. 990 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,680 They studied a few designers that came before, you know, like 991 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,840 a Neville Brody or, you know, David Carson, you know, it's 992 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,080 like, oh, this look at this cool new style by this artist. 993 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,440 And it's like, you know, I, I, hey, all the best artists and 994 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,080 designers steal from the past, you know, so it's not 995 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,000 necessarily a bad thing, but it's a weird thing to even say 996 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,080 that out loud because it's like, you know, I, I can hear the lash 997 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,640 back already. Well, how's that different than 998 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:22,800 AI? And it's like, well, it's 999 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,600 different because the point is you're, you're taking in these 1000 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,520 influences and the point is not to copy, but to incorporate 1001 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,960 them, to mash things together, to use them to help develop your 1002 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,800 own style, which is ultimately what usually happens by all 1003 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,680 those breakout design stars. It's not because they just 1004 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,480 copied one thing. You know, I'll poke a I'll poke 1005 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,320 a finger right now at like Johnny, I've like, you know, 1006 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,880 especially given the open eye, open eye announcement recently, 1007 00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:51,840 like not only is he always been forthright that all of his most 1008 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,000 of his Apple work, his design work at Apple was inspired by 1009 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,120 Braun and by, you know, Dieter Rams. 1010 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,080 So it's like, here's an example, like go, just do that. 1011 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,040 Go study, you know, design that's come before go study art 1012 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,720 that's come before movements and and get away from the screens 1013 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:12,600 that are just, you know, flooded with AI slop as it as it is 1014 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,200 being called, right. Totally. 1015 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,760 So Kevin, thank you so much for joining us in this conversation 1016 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,760 today. Kevin Flores, you've been 1017 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,000 listening to him here. Watching him here is the 1018 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,360 co-author of the Design Career Handbook. 1019 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,160 You can get it online on his website. 1020 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,320 We'll post links to everything. But just as a final call to 1021 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,160 action for our listeners and our viewers, where can folks find 1022 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,800 you and connect online? We'll post it in the show notes, 1023 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,240 obviously, but folks love to hear it from you directly. 1024 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,280 For sure, I, I'm, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so I always 1025 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,800 tell people, please connect with me, you know, let me know how 1026 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,320 you found me. And, but that's great. 1027 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,400 I'd, I love to communicate with people there. 1028 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,400 And of course, check out the books website. 1029 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,960 There's a, there's a cool resource page with tons of links 1030 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,680 that, you know, are pretty useful. 1031 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,040 I I think that's design career handbook or design 1032 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,800 careerbook.com. And I'll just just one closing 1033 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,120 though, is I'll say reiterate. We said earlier, like the world 1034 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,560 of work right now, including design is like we're in the 1035 00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,320 middle of such massive disruption. 1036 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,840 But don't let that dissuade you. If you really are interested in 1037 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,120 design and, and expressing and employing your creativity to 1038 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,080 develop cool stuff out there. So just please stick with it and 1039 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,560 and dig in. Again, Kevin, thank you all for 1040 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,880 watching or listening and we'll see you next time. 1041 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,720 Bye everyone. Thank you.