Problem that it sort of feels like no one's really talking
about, but we all sort of sense that it's there and we're
certainly all experiencing sort of like the impacts or the
consequences of some of those systemic choices that are being
made. Hello everyone, welcome back to
a new episode of the AIJ Design Podcast.
I'm Julia Donatello, Design competitions and event manager
at AIG, the Professional Association for Design, and my
Co host. I'm Li Shan Huang, Co Executive
Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA.
So this season on the show, we are exploring the theme of eyes
on design. We have three different eyes,
each representing a different lens through which we will look
at design practice. And so the first one is the
critical eye, which is about stepping back, asking hard
questions about what we do as designers, what we make, the
industry that we're a part of, and its context in the broader
world. We also have the connecting eye
because we recognize that design doesn't exist in a vacuum.
It touches technology, business, culture, science, all sorts of
things. And so how do we connect with
other disciplines and people making stuff?
And then finally, the future. I always looking forward to see
where design is going, where technology is going, and how we
are making the future together. And our guest for this episode
is Benji Willem. He's worn many hats over the
years as an agency founder, brand strategist, design
educator at ASU, the Arizona State University, and now also
as director of strategic initiatives at UCDA, which is
the University and College Designers Association.
Today, he is here to talk about various things we've started
talking about in our pre record about power, about pay, our
compensation as designers and how to actually professionalize
our industry more. So welcome, Benji.
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Excited to be here. So, Benji, thank you so much for
joining us today. I wanted to hear a little bit
from you. How did your career start?
So how did you get into design? And what then also brought you
to design education? That's where you're working with
at the moment. Yeah, I so I think I got my
starting design the same way like most millennials of my age
did, right? Like it from sort of interacting
with sort of popular culture, album covers, T-shirts, posters,
things like that. Spending entirely too much time
trying to make my Myspace look cool while also not
understanding a single bit of HTML.
And so that's sort of like what inspired it.
And then from there, I just was lucky enough to realize one that
I sort of picked a great program to go to the undergrad for.
And then also was just lucky that after learning about design
being so many more things, I still was really excited about
it and wanted to continue learning and continue doing it.
And then sort of leading my way into design education.
It was always sort of at the periphery for me when I ran my
agency. So I've actually started my
agency nine months after getting out of undergrad because I
graduated into like a really not great economy, had a first
design job. It went well, but was sort of
seeing a non design leader sort of struggle to sell design to
clients. And it was a business that had
been running for like 15 years. And so I kind of was like, man,
if this guy can do it, I can do that, right?
Like I'm like, this is easy. I could do this.
Like this guy can do it, I could do it.
And so when I got let go from that job because we lost in
contracts and things that just sort of happened and there was
really no work left, I was like, I'm just going to give it one
month. I've got a month left on my
lease. I'm going to give it one month,
try it. And if I can start making money
in 30 days, I'll just keep going with it.
And then like 7-8 years later, it was sort of history at that
point. But I always wanted to be like,
oh, if I'm running my own agency, I want to sort of teach
the way that like all of the people we learn about in design
school always did because that felt like a valuable way to sort
of contribute. But I also quickly realized out
of design school and while working that the one thing I
really missed was sort of the way that there's like that
culture of always learning and exploring that happened in
design school. And so I always tried to bring
that into how I structured the agency, but it's just not the
same, right? And so wanting to be an educator
was sort of always there. And then actually getting the
job as an educator was sort of a bit of serendipity and
necessity, to be honest, so. Yeah, I love that.
I love hearing folks how they started their own business,
Special Designers, because many of them run their business in
parallel to some other full time jobs.
So it's always very interesting to hear how everything started.
It's great that you're now teaching at ASU.
And I wanted to hear a little bit if you felt that your
perspective has changed now that you're changed the roles from,
you know, working in the industry and now stepping into
the education system. How do how do you feel that your
your perspective has changed? It's changed a lot, I think.
I think from the outside, like sort of looking in as someone
who is a design student, both undergrad and grad school, and
then also sort of a working designer, I sort of had this
perspective of the industry that I think was very sort of like
job focused and thinking about like, oh, what's the market
doing? What's job availability?
Like what like hiring practices, firing practice, like all of
those sort of logistical things. And but then also a lot of the
sort of like how do we as designers move up and stay and
like become a senior level, but not actually have to maybe go
into people management if we don't want to, Which often times
sort of feels like a, a dead end route if that's what you want to
do. And you're like, I just want to
design, but not maybe make entry level wages for my whole career.
But then sort of being able to see it from this sort of the
education insider perspective was really, really eye opening,
I think because it's sort of allowed me to find the ways in
which like the whole system started to sort of connect.
Which is really when I also started to recognize that like
there's a really big systemic problem that it sort of feels
like no one's really talking about, but we all sort of sense
that it's there and we're certainly all experiencing sort
of like the impacts or the consequences of some of those
systemic choices that are being made.
And that's sort of where I, when, you know, the call went
out for the podcast, I was like, hey, I have this really crazy
idea in the past, it's ruffled some feathers.
I've gotten cancelled on design Twitter before over these ideas.
Like would love to talk about them, but I think that that's
sort of the education perspective, insider perspective
really allowed me to understand in a more nuanced way, like how
all these pieces are connecting and has really helped me sort of
establish like a, an idea or a vision rather for like, here's a
possible way out, but like we've got to do something.
Yeah, I love what you're saying because I feel like when I was
in grad school, I went also to to design as a, as a grad
school. There were all of these
initiatives. Like I felt like majority of our
my, our cohort was very worried about getting a job afterwards.
Many of us were international. So that was a lot of struggle
and finding jobs. And then I remember the
professors were really trying to push another perspective in
terms of what if you don't think about this right now and
experience design school in a very exploratory way and like
not really focused on what job am I going to get?
How much am I going to get paid and all that.
So I remember also being on this space of wait, I, I, I can also
actually explore and live this experience in a more intentional
way without actually thinking so much how this is going to be
useful for, for the market afterwards.
So, yeah, I love the perspective.
We heard that you recently stepped into a new role as a
director of strategic initiatives at UCDA.
What does it mean? And what, what have been your
experiences so far, your responsibilities in the projects
that you've been involved? You can share a little bit about
it. So on the service, I think it
really looks like sort of figuring out what does a design
organization look like now, but also what does it look like sort
of in 510 or 20 years from now. Particularly in the context of
how does it serve its members when those members no longer
resemble the people that they were decades ago.
Or the the membership no longer looks like what membership and
design organizations looked like a decade ago.
Because the reality is that has shifted dramatically in the last
1020 years. Even when I first started going
to sort of AIGA design conferences and other design
organization events, and you know, it was always a big
recognizable name on stage. These celebrities, these
identities, these people that we would all know and we were
familiar with their work. And nowadays, like you talk to
younger designers, you talk to my students, they don't give a
shit about name. They don't care about celebrity,
right? Like millennials sort of gave us
stand culture, but like Gen. Z Davis influencer culture.
I won't get into how the lines between those blur once somebody
an influencer becomes so big they become celebrity.
But I think that even as like those cultural relationships
change towards people, towards reputation, so do the
organizations that facilitate those memberships have to then
change to facilitate what these people need, what these groups
of people need? And so part of my mandate in my
work is figuring out like, what is it that they need right now
and how can we facilitate that? How can we meet them where they
are? How can we engage them in a way
that feels natural and is in the methods that they want to
engage? But then also, how can we
continue to do that into the future while also not being so
sort of held it down by who what we think we are, what we think
we need to be or who we think we need to be sort of beholden to.
To ensure that that always stays like an open door of people,
like new people, fresh people coming in, moving up, caring for
the organization and then moving out as they sort of age through
through that process. Yeah, I love hearing you because
I think it's a little bit of what Nishan and I and the whole
team at AIJ also feel, that it's a little bit of the struggle on
how to understand more of our community, how can we serve
them? How can we create programming
that supports what they need now but also in the future.
So yeah, I think I resonate with what you're saying.
Yeah, I think that's a great setup for getting into the crux
of the controversy that you were alluding to, Benji.
So let me set that up a little bit more for folks.
You shared with us in the prep conversation that you found that
about 80% of designers today are either self-taught or they went
to a boot camp. So this is from Coursera and
career karma is the source of this.
And so that means like designers became designers, not through
going through traditional design school.
And I'm like the polar opposite of that as somebody who has like
the most like institutional and like expensive education
available. So part of it is generational,
but it's also the trade off, right?
It's something we think about as designers in general, but like
by opening the gates, by not having as much gatekeeping,
we're allowing for more diversity, equity, inclusion in
the design industry. We also are maybe losing a
certain kind of cohesion in terms of identity or like the
Canon, right? I mean, I think parts of the
Canon needed to be blown up anyway.
But there there is a flip side to that in terms of like, you
know, we see this at a IGA, right?
It's not, it's no longer the place to be as a designer in the
way that might have been in the 90s.
And so how do we deal with these trade-offs?
And like maybe we can start with some of your thoughts on that as
a way to open this up. Yeah, absolutely.
And I would, and I would want to preface this conversation with
saying two things. One, that like the perspective I
have now as an educator revealed to me very, very quickly that
like, this is a systemic problem.
And this is not a situation where like, it's just like, oh,
it's the organization's fault, it's education's fault, it's the
market's fault. It's the industry's fault.
It's, you know, the way it's all regulated.
Like there's really no one, like there's no like big angry Red
Baron and with a villain mustache like cackling in the
corner. And that the duality of this
problem being that like, yes, we absolutely want things to be
more equitable. We want them to be more
sustainable. We want them to be more open.
And we want people, regardless of skin color and economic
background, to be able to learn design and do design and become
designers, right? Like those are all things that
we want. But those are also or just the
opposite side of the coin of the of a lot of the other problems
we're having where, you know, design software being so
accessible is like almost over democratizing design in a sense,
right? Like.
And so I think the duality of this problem sort of being like
it's part industry problem and like software and technology
based, but also part like things we actually want isn't
indicative of like saying that any attempt to solve these
problems is one that's sort of accommodating or pushing for
like a return to elitism. I think it actually is just a
signifier that like this is a big hairy problem, the kind that
designers love to sell the idea that we are well equipped to
solve. And so like, let's get to
solving it, right? Like, let's stop acting like
it's sort of the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk
about and like, let's solve this problem.
And so, yeah, absolutely. I think that there is sort of
this unintentional, I described it as like a flattening that has
happened that you see in industry, right?
You've got 80% of people saying that they've never been formally
trained or that they learned by being self-taught or from a boot
camp. But then alternatively, you've
also got these other like data sets that say like 90% of all
design work in the industry currently is freelance work.
So that's like insanely staggering that like there's
only 10% of work that you can actually get paid doing a full
time job to do. But then you see other
statistics that say something like anywhere between 60 and 75%
of people working in design are working as freelancers.
So like that's kind of alarming because what that's sort of
telling us is a couple things. It's telling US1 there's not
enough jobs for everyone with a design degree to work a full
time paid with benefits job. The other side of that is we are
likely also probably graduating entirely too many designers,
right? So there's sort of the
conversation around like accessibility that has to happen
or even eligibility, I think. And then the other side of that
is if any of those things were to change, it still wouldn't
change the fact that 80% of everybody doing the work is
self-taught and not going to school anyway.
So those types of sort of like systems or checks or balances
wouldn't necessarily have the impact we want it to anyway.
And a thing that sort of come up recently that I think I saw was
being sort of test run in the state of Indiana is like ROI
evaluations on degrees. And like if you're not able to
prove that, like people graduating with this degree are
able to make a certain amount of money within so many years, it
gets axed from the education program.
Like, I don't think that's a solution either because I want
to live in a world where people can go to school for whatever
they want to learn. And like know that like even if
I learned this thing that maybe I'll never use it professionally
in the way that I maybe I learned it, it's still going to
benefit me and still allow me to like feed myself and put a bit
of a house over a roof over my head.
I look at this whole sort of ecosystem and I go, we need some
sort of system for checks and balances.
We need some sort of system for stratification that says there
are standards, that there are policies, procedures, titles,
certifications, something that said that insulates the industry
from just anybody and everybody. And when I say that, I don't
mean to say anyone who doesn't have a degree shouldn't be
allowed to work as a designer, right?
It's not what I'm saying at all. Some of the best user experience
designers I've ever had the pleasure of working with were
self-taught. But because they learned the
things that were necessary to be good user experience designers.
And so it's about standards and like regulating those standards
more so than it is about saying who isn't, who isn't.
And then at the end of the day, I think it's a matter of
understanding that these regulations need to protect us
both locally and globally, right?
So cuz the other side to this is globalization and the other side
to sort of anybody and everybody being able to go out and work
design, whether they've got a degree or not, is the question
of do they know the value of what they're doing right?
So are they charging enough? Do they know if they're charging
enough? Do they know how to tell if
they're charging enough? Because for every designer that
says I'll do that logo for $50 versus someone who's been
trained, who has the skills to know the value, who you know is
like, no, I can't do that logo for less than a significantly
higher amount because that person has school loans they
have to pay back, right? Like all of those things work in
tandem to dictate the value of design in both the market and
also the way that we are showing up to defend the industry and
our skills and our abilities. And then offshoring is another
big part of that, right? Because if we risk sort of
walling off our industry and saying you can't sell this
service for less than this, whether you're classically
trained or not, right? What's to stop them from saying
going overseas and getting it? Well, one way to do that would
be are they certified? Fine, go overseas and allow them
to build it, design it, but they have to have to certification
for our jurisdiction, for our area, whatever that looks like
to be able to do it, for you to be able to contract with them to
do it. And so I think the conversation
starts to sound and look a lot more like, I think the
conversations labor unions are having than it does sort of the
conversations we've had in the past.
Yeah, there's a lot to pick up on there.
And I want to circle back on this certification conversation.
But for us just like as a direct response, thinking about that
$50 logo thing, right? It's like, I think part of it is
also how do you explain the value of the multi $1000 logo
isn't about just the final deliverable.
It is about the process or the, you know, the brand guidelines,
the getting to that clarity versus, I don't know, the small
business owner that knows what they want.
Like by all means, buy that off of Fiverr, you know, like it.
But if you're thinking about like a brand identity, right?
And part of that is also a, a client education issue.
As we kind of circle around some of these things.
I wanted to paint a little bit more of the the contextual
picture too, since you do teach undergrads at ASU.
You shared with us before that there was a report that came out
a couple years ago in 2024 from the Federal Reserve Bank of
Saint Louis. It was a report called the
Talent Disrupted Report. And they noted that 52% of
college graduates these days are unemployed or underemployed.
I'm sorry, upon initial labor market entry.
So when they first graduate and then even 10 years later, 45% of
college graduates are underemployed.
So like you see this first hand and so it's that's not just
design graduates, but it's just like people who go to College in
general. This is already an issue.
So you can understand why people are teaching themselves to do
design or you know, going to other cheaper.
Ways. Right.
So and so you're, I mean, you're a university professor.
So how do you grapple with this realization, this reality?
It's tough because I am a realist in the sense that like I
have a, I'm not the type of educator that will stand in
front of a room full of students and be like, I'm going to teach
you things that will change your life.
Like you're getting, you are going to have the most magical,
amazing, like fruitful career because you were in my class.
Like that's just not how I approach this.
And so like, and I also, I teach the portfolio and professional
presentation class, which is sort of like the make my resume,
make my cover letter, get ready to go out in job search class.
And so anytime I encounter these statistics, I bring them to the
class and like, I know for some they're probably like, please
stop delivering me bad news. And I'm like, but it's like, I
just want you to understand what the state of this all looks
like. Because the reality is like
there is no more like clear. Like you do you jump to these
hoops in school and you leave and then you get the job and the
job pays you money and then you work the job and then you get
benefits and you retire and like life is happy.
It's like it doesn't work that way anymore.
And so part of that is like me just making sure that they
understand that like, this is the reality of the world that we
work in. And I have to hold that very
precariously because on one hand, as an academic, as someone
who's always loved the school and loved learning, I am like
super pro education. I'm like everyone should who is
fit for college that wants to go to college, should go to college
type of person. But I also recognize that, like
for many, like college is not the only path for you, probably
not your best path. And so I think often times when
I think about that relationship between like education and the
market and like how all those things start to connect.
And this was the piece I was talking about earlier where I
was like, it was being the insider perspective that really
made it all click into place for me.
Is that like it's fundamentally broken from like the lowest
level all the way up, right? Like the reality is every
student in K through 12 across this country is told that they
should graduate high school, get their diploma so that they can
go to college. That is true.
Statistically, I think for somewhere around like 43% of all
of them that that's actually the case that they should go to
college. So we have a storytelling
problem, we have an economic problem, we have a just a life
preparation problem. And I was thinking about this
the other day when I was trying to present to my students who
when I would go, how many of you want to be freelancers?
And none of them raised their hand.
And I'm like, I have bad news for you. 90% of all of the work
in the market right now is freelance.
I was thinking about like, how do we fix this?
Like, how do we solve this problem?
And I went, I think fundamentally the focus is the
designers need to stop thinking about themselves as artists and
start thinking about themselves as tradespeople.
Like, I think that that mentality shift could fix so
much. And that comes from someone with
ABFA degree who is proud of the fact that I have a Fine Arts
degree, who like, firmly believes that like, art is a
good foundation for design, but like, we have to stop showing up
as artists in the industry and we need to start showing up as
tradespeople. I love what you said because
Lishan and I have noticed that some of the learning programs
that AIG offers, the ones that sell the most are the business
programs. So it's basically designers
wanting to know more about business as they progress in
their career, as they become leaders and so on and so forth.
So I think that's the mentality that you're mentioning, that
they're walking away a little bit from the design, the
creative aspect of the design work only and adding up skills
on design and so on. So yeah, I think it makes a lot
of sense. And I think that that
perspective framing fits too with like, how do we solve the
stratification problem, right? And it comes down to not only
protecting ourselves, but also, I think, protecting the world
around us, right? Like an architect can't build a
building that's gonna fall down on top of your head, but for
some reason, designers and developers can build social
media platforms and build algorithms that undermine global
democracy. That doesn't make sense, right?
In the same way that, like a plumber can't Plumb your house
in a way that it's going to flood, and an electrician can't
wire your home in a way that it will catch fire.
Like it just. There's so many signs that point
to us reframing what we do as tradespeople rather than artists
and building in levels of certification that protect both
us so that we can sit there and say, no, I'm not going to design
you a social media platform that undermines global democracy.
And you can't fire me for telling me no because that's
illegal. And it hurts people in the same
way that an architect is like, no, I'm not going to build you a
deathtrap saw style skyrise building that will kill
thousands of people because that's illegal.
And in the same way, like that allows us to then also protect
the people that we're building for and also protect ourselves.
And so, yeah, I think that that perspective shift could be
hugely beneficial to how we view what we do and and why we need
some of the things that like I think we need to solve this
problem. I love this metal core, Yeah.
I think there's like a couple things that I wanted to come
back to 1 is the certification conversation and the other one
is like the, the parallel with unions and I'll have to cover
both, but why don't we jump into certification first?
So at AIGA we have two certification programs.
There's the professional designer and the design leader
programs that I launched and and created.
And it's one way of starting that right, like setting these
standards. We have professional standards
and ethics. We have intro to business
topics, you know, intellectual property, things like that, that
we think that bridges the gap between having technical skills
and software or creative skills with being a professional.
And so we're trying to fill in that gap, but, you know, we're
not able to be gatekeepers in the sense of like, we can talk
about and promote the value of this kind of certification, but
it's not like being an architect or a doctor or a nurse where you
have to be certified to practice.
But we've seen that our friends up north in Canada with RGD in
Ontario, they have a certification model that really
like sets a different kind of floor on pay and ethics and
technical skills and stuff like that.
And I know you've been talking to them a lot to see what you
can learn. For director, so many questions.
She was probably like, who is this weirdo in my inbox sending
me book long emails, asking millions of questions.
I thank her for her patience. At one point, she actually sent
me like legal documentation. It was basically like, I think
this will answer some of your questions.
Please just read it. Essentially, it was what she was
saying. But yeah, I think what RGD is
doing a couple things, like if I'm being completely honest, I
went into my understanding of RGD was sort of completely
different than what I ended up finding.
And so a little bit I was a let down cuz I was like, damn, I was
hoping for like the silver bullet, you know?
But at the same time, I think there was so much there that was
really, really good. And then there's a few things
about how it sort of came about that actually really, really
stood out to me that actually got my wheels spinning about
like, could like AIGA facilitate that?
Like possibly cuz thinking about like your, your sort of your
chapter model and things like that.
And so to give those who are listening a bit of a background
who don't know RGD registered graphic design designation
exists in all throughout Canada, but specifically it started in
Ontario, Canada. It actually started.
This is the part that's really impressive for me.
It was an act of legislation. That's the like established RGD.
So it was literally a motion that was put forth by the
legislator in Ontario to simply say RGD is an organization that
exists, that's job is to oversee the certification and standards
of what it means to be a certified graphic designer in
the province of Ontario and brought more broadly in all of
Canada. So very linked to sort of like
legal grassroots sort of efforts in that way.
And how that came about was actually simply because there
was a group of designers that were sort of always sort of at
the forefront of activism of like advocating for like, hey,
there should be sort of like certification standards.
There should be requirements. There should be some like a
group of people that I actually sort of think we're probably a
little psychic in a way in the sense that they sort of saw the
problems we're dealing with now and said there needs to be
something in place that protects us from this.
And so that legislation actually literally established RDRGD to
have the authority to represent and regulate graphic designers
in Canada. And why I think that's so
powerful is because we have seen even here in the States
recently, the value of like collective action, right?
Like I leave and look at like campaign organizing for like
mom, Donnie and AOC. Like those are things that like
the establishment, like that'll never work.
You can't do that. And then like people were just
like, screw it, I'm going to do it because I can and we're going
to prove you wrong. And then boom, they did it.
And people are like, holy shit, right.
Like I think there's so much value.
And just like if we just collectively agree to do this,
this is doable. And then I think that the model
for advocating for the certification and the standards
to be legally ratified is the part that's a repeatable model,
right? Like it would be very easy for
an organization at a state level, even maybe even starting
thinking like locally, like at a county level or city level to
build connections and network with lawmakers and policy makers
to say, hey, this matters. Here's why this matters.
And I think we live in a world now where like, the reasons why
something like this matters are like mountains high when we
think about like data and privacy and just all of the
things that we're currently sort of dealing with is like
consumers that it becomes really easy to make the case of like,
hey, this should matter. And this absolutely does matter.
And here's a model and a method for doing that and helping to
sort of solve this problem and start to like create systems
that sort of protect consumers, protect us as workers.
And I think the part that maybe you should change or become
different is our our angle should not just simply be like,
let's get ratified is like the the department or the
organization that sort of has the authority to represent and
regulate graphic designers. But let's literally turn it into
like almost like a union in a sense where like there's certain
trades where you can't hire non union workers to do that work.
It's not allowed. You have to, right?
They're in there a door, but also like, you can't just let
some Joe Schmo on the side of the street come get a job at a
hospital and perform open heart surgery, right?
And so like there are like layers of protection to job
roles and functions that not only protect the person doing
the job, but also the people that they are sort of servicing
in that role that exist as models for like anything and
everything that we could possibly need.
And the part that like makes me crazy is I look at these models
and these systems that work, that function that have worked
forever. Granted, they've had their days
in the sun where maybe they were a little stronger and maybe
they're a little weaker, so on and so forth.
But then I then see the conversation from so many in the
industry that are like, oh, we can't do that.
We don't need that. That doesn't need to happen.
And I feel like a crazy person taking crazy pills because I'm
like, the answer is right there. Like we, like, we as designers
pride ourselves on the ability to, like, find solutions and
bits and pieces from everywhere. And like, there are so many bits
and pieces everywhere that we could use.
Surely there is a solution we can build.
And instead we just go, wouldn't it be great if there's a
solution we could do to solve and answer all these problems
and not just feel crazy going, yeah, the answer's right there.
You just don't like it. You just don't like the work
that it's going to require, or you know what it might imply or
mean about what you do before. I don't know why.
I, I think I, I have a couple things to help thread together a
couple of these thoughts. So 1 is like, if we look at
other like creative industries, like say, Hollywood, right?
Those have strong unions because of the historical context of
those unions, whether it's SAG, AFTRA or Ayatse for the people
doing the tech stuff, I think with our industry, we kind of
missed that historical moment. But we're in a different
historical moment now when you see that like people are trying
to organize like Amazon workers and Starbucks baristas, right?
So like there is a resurgence of unions.
We're certainly seeing this in design schools.
I've been part of two different union campaigns, 1st at The New
School at Parsons and then now at SVA that just formed a union.
And I can say that that actually connects to what you were saying
about this mindset and identity shift from artists to
tradesperson. I think part of it is like we
have this, like we think about this as like our identities as
artists, but it's also actually internalized neoliberalism.
And So what I do about that, yeah.
To like, unpack that is like you have to like, stop thinking that
you're that special, you know? Yeah, exactly in that like, you
are a professional providing a service.
Like you do have a unique point of view.
I'm not saying you're not special, but that like you're
part of a collective group of other workers that have similar
skills. And yes, you are competing for
teaching jobs and, you know, industry jobs and whatnot, but
you also have or in common if you organize and act in common.
But I think part of this internalized like artist
identity is like, well, you know, you everyone else's
competition in that sense. One very concrete anecdote for
this and then I'll turn it over to you to riff on this, is that
during the unionization campaign at SVA when we were trying to
form the union, you have to get a certain percentage of your
colleagues to vote yes on the union for it to be recognized.
This is not just a generational issue because we have both.
We have older people with the, you know, pro union and older
people anti union, but we certainly see like younger
designers, younger design educators, more pro union for
sure. But one of the people that we
talked to just in terms of like, hey, do you support this union?
Like literally said, like your concerns are beneath me, right?
Because that they had like, they had a professional practice
outside of teaching and they treated teaching as like charity
work, right? Which is like, OK, that's great
that you can do that. But it also means that the only
people who can afford to teach are people who are already at a
certain level of success. But it also that narrative
undersells teaching as a craft in its own right, right?
Like it's like, I think all of us could have examples from our
own educational careers of like people, maybe designers who were
great as practitioners, who were just awful as educators, right?
Because you don't automatically become a good teacher just
because you were successful in your design practice.
So there's a lot there, but just wanted to put that out there for
you to riff on. Yeah, I, I think that that like,
I love the phrase you said, like internalize neoliberalism
because some of like the earliest conversations I've had
about this, and admittedly because I'm a millennial, most
of my big ideas start by in complaining in some form online.
So some of my earliest conversations about these ideas
have unfortunately been online in forums where nuance is not
appreciated and there is no room for nuance.
And so like when I've come up with these sort of initial
claims or statements, right, people in me like, oh, you're an
elitist. Like it's just design.
It's not that serious. Like, nobody's dying here.
You just want to like feel more like that, like elevated and you
think design is just sort of worth more than it is like,
which is crazy because it's all of the same things that you just
stated that like this sort of like internalized neoliberalism
sort of creates. So it's funny how it almost like
circles back is like the weapon they also lob at people with a
differing opinion. But I I 100% agree.
Like it's it creates this situation where like we are sort
of like, well, I I want to be creative and I want to be
special and I want to be unique. And it's like, yeah, like all of
us do. That's like a human desire and a
human need, but also at the end of the day, like you are
providing a service to an industry, to a group of people
in a way that is no different than a plumber or an
electrician. And like what is good for all of
us is also collectively good for you.
And that also sort of brings me to this, this person you
encountered, I thankfully have never encountered anyone like
this in my time yet that sort of had that that mentality.
I'm certain they're out there. I would hope that I would be
able to like suppress my sort of disgust at what they just told
me enough to respond eloquently and be like, well, you know, the
reality of your experience doesn't mean it's the reality of
everyone's experience. And I think if you take even a
second to just look around at the industry, it sort of is a
clear illustrator of like, that's not the case.
Like just because you don't maybe need that doesn't mean
that other people don't need that.
And then I also think it's sort of begs the question of like,
what is that transference of credibility and power in an
industry look like, right. I think that there is a very,
very clear secession problem in the design industry.
I think that when you look around and you see the same
names that you've been hearing for probably your whole career,
cuz it's been my whole career always being the ones talked
about on stage, invited to be a speaker here, invited to be a
speaker there. And yet in my time as a
designer, I have seen other talent grow in bloom and bud and
do amazing and great things and not given the same amount of
space and spotlight. It's evident that there's
clearly a secession problem in the design industry.
And whether that's the hooks of power, the hooks of
respectability, prestige, whatever it is, like there's
something there where you're right, there's a group of people
that go that's beneath me. I don't have to worry about
that. And that's sort of like
individualism that's really, really inherent in American
Society, I think is sort of rearing its ugly head in those
moments. But I don't know.
I don't know how to. I don't know how to convince
that person without just being like, just go fuck yourself.
Like we don't need you. I mean, I think in the same way
that you don't need this, we also don't need you.
But I also recognize that that's a little rough around the edges
for some. I think some of these, like
unions and like DSA and some of these other organizations that
you've mentioned before, like they see political education as
a big pillar of what they do, right?
And I'm not saying like we're indoctrinating the kids.
Like this is some like, Republican nightmare of what
university professors are doing. But it's more like, OK, well,
like even within a union, like I was a member of my union for
years. And it wasn't until actually I
invited some of them on a version of this podcast that
then they recruited me on one of the contract campaigns, right?
And was like, I hadn't really thought about a lot of these
issues. You know, I used to depend on
adjuncting for my income and for my health insurance, But now I
have a full time job at AIGA. But even though I don't depend
on it, I understand like the solidarity angle of this, right?
And also the equity angle of this of like, you can't just
have people who are either independently wealthy or
successful teaching because you know, teaching is a craft and
you want to have different perspectives.
And also. And allow people to have some
sort of security to develop their craft of teaching.
But yeah, like soapbox aside, I'm not sure, you know, it's
like, how do you educate these people?
And maybe it's also a, a generational thing because we
see, we have, we have a generation where the system
doesn't work for them and they know it and they see it, right?
I'm, I'm an exennial. So it's like I benefited from
the tail end of some of these things.
I actually, I started college at ASU where it was free for me
because I'm from Arizona and graduated, you know, in the top
5% of my class. And I have no idea what the
tuition is these days, but I bet it's not free, right?
It's still very, very cheap for in state though, believe it or
not, like ASU has. I'm going to try not to get
myself fired. There are a lot of things ASU
does that make me angry as an educator, but there's also so
much that they do to advance equity and accessibility just to
education in ways that I think is incredibly powerful.
But in a way that also is clear that the our institution is
recognizing that like Arizona's dead last in public education.
Like it's, it's a clear, like you can see that it's a clear
acknowledgement of like we're trying to help in the way that
our state is failing, which I I love about this institution.
It's some like it's a value alignment that I absolutely
adore and like would not be here if not for those types of value
alignments. But you're right, they're we're
I think millennials are kind of the first generation.
It was like they were like here American Dream, just kidding,
right? And so we're Gen.
Z. It was sort of like they grew up
knowing like there really wasn't one and that it wasn't there.
And I think that it sort of ties back into what we were saying
earlier about like a job at UCDA or your guys's job at AIGA,
right? It's like, here's this
generation of people that are very community minded.
And the irony like look at what they've done to celebrity
culture versus influence culture.
Like influence culture is a symptom of a desire for
community. But the reason that's the
outcome and not something stronger or something better,
like honest to God, good strong communities around our country
is because America has lost the ability to build community.
We don't know how to build strong communities anymore.
And this is a generation of people that want community.
If you look at the impacts that they've done on the economy,
from the way that they've changed what the sort of
marketing buyer cycle looks like to them inventing influencer
culture to how insanely popular TikTok is, this is a group of
people that want connection above everything else.
And they recognize that they're lacking in it.
And so like, this is a, as you said, another historical moment
where like, we can strike while the iron's hot and we can really
turn this into something that like, benefits not only us in
the last few decades of our own careers, but like our industry
for generations to come if we do it right.
And I just hope to God we do something because my biggest
fear is that like, we'll do nothing and we will lose these
organizations in these institutions because this
generation in this mindset shift will prove that these
institutions aren't necessary and that they're not needed.
Because when they had the opportunity to step up and do
the thing that we needed them to do, they didn't.
And I know that, like, nothing lasts forever.
Nothing is permanent. But I also know that it's a hell
of a lot easier to turn a ship around than it is to build a new
one. Benji, thank you so much.
No, this is such a thoughtful or fruitful conversation.
My, my, my brain is, is on fire. I want to bring back the the
comment you brought in the beginning, but also now about
influencers and celebrity. So we know that younger
designers at the moment, they don't really have the same
relationship to celebrities that previous generations had.
Yeah. They're basically basically not
really looking for a name on the pedestal.
So what does it mean for organizations like ours, like
AIG, like UCDA, how we think about who to bring to the stage
or how to platform these folks? How how do you how do you go
about it? So from my experience and what
I've seen as an educator, and this is some of like the
strategy that I'm trying to bring to UCDA as we continue to
work forward, is that this generation, these students,
these people, these young designers, correct?
They have no relationship to celebrity.
They don't care about big names. It's not going to sell tickets,
it's not going to get asses and seats.
It's not going to fill your event.
It just won't because it's not a draw for them.
But what they do value is learning, community and
collaboration and Co creation. And So what we as institutions
and organizations need to do if we want to continue to platform
good design, both work outcomes and then the people behind them
is find ways to create spaces where these individuals, these
students, these young designers, this generation can Co
collaborate, Co work, Co create, but also Co support one another,
right? And so it's no longer about, oh,
we've got some big name coming in to give this really awesome,
great talk. Instead, it's, hey, we've got
this really great group of people and instead of standing
them on a stage and having them talk at you for 40 minutes,
instead they're gonna share with you how they work together.
And they're gonna share with you how they build community and how
they work creatively, collaboratively, right?
Because those are the things that this generation cares
about. They wanna know how to work and
build and make together. And some person on a stage who's
made more money than they could ever possibly imagine or think
that they could ever make isn't going to be able to connect with
them in a way that someone who's talking about the types of
experiences that they wanna have, or a group of people
talking about the types of experiences they wanna have
would absolutely connect with them.
Right? And it's sort of like a
shifting. It's like there's this phrase in
academia for teaching. I heard it a couple times in my
own undergrad. I've heard it much more
frequently now as an educator plugged into like pedagogical
circles, which is this idea of like, you no longer want to be
the sage on a stage and you want to be like the guide on the
side. It's sort of that same idea,
right? Like we need to think about
creating events and spaces where we are bringing in guides who
can help guide and directly connect solutions to problems
that these people are having. And in that also mirror up their
practice or in the, or the ways that they want their practice to
work or their creative habits to work.
Rather than thinking about like what sage can we sort of put on
that stage to sort of drive interest or prop something up?
And I've seen the value in that because you would be shocked at
the number of students I have who will recognize like there's
sort of a learning pathway in the program that doesn't exist.
Or maybe there's this area of special learning that doesn't
exist in the program and they will not blink or think twice
about spending $1000 on a workshop with this person online
who's like, I'm basically going to teach you how to build these
things the way I build these things or the way I make these
things. So they're invested in, in like
expanding their knowledge and building their skill set.
But they're not, they don't want to do it the same way that older
generations have done it, right? We they don't want to do it from
the perspective of like sort of talk at me and I will sort of
put the pieces together and sort of reverse engineer it.
They say I want you to stand next to me and guide me and show
me. Yeah, that's great.
That's beautiful. I know we're not going to solve
all of these issues in an hour long podcast, but I did want to
circle back to one of the sobering statistics from earlier
in our conversation about like the underemployed college
graduates even 10 years out and the Uber ification and the
freelancer fication of design in particular.
One of the things I've been thinking about is how we start
to reframe design education as an entry point and that there
are certain that there can be multiple visions of success,
right? Like for some people, it could
mean like starting your own studio or becoming a partner at
Pentagram just as safer law school.
It means becoming a partner in a white shoe law firm.
But also going to law school opens up, it's like a
prerequisite to becoming a politician in a lot of ways,
right? Or you could work in corporate
environments as a lawyer, you know, even if you don't pass the
bar exam. But that law degree or that MBA
opens up a lot of other things. And it's not seen as like a
failure of not using your degree.
Whereas with designers, often it's like, oh, if you didn't, if
you're not doing what you went to school for, it's seen as
like, oh, you, you know, wasted your degree.
Is that a kind of narrative that you introduce when you talked to
your students about this? Because, you know, they know the
statistics, too, where you tell them the statistics.
So how do you, like, reframe a design education as like an
entry point? It's all sorts of other things.
Yeah, it's a really great question and I honestly don't
know that I'm even the best person to answer because I don't
know that I do it well, which is funny because I feel like I've
done a little bit of everything with using my design degree
because like I tell all my students like no one thinks the
way designer thinks. And like that's your superpower
is like learning how to think differently and see things
differently is sort of like where all of the everything that
we do sort of comes from. And so like that's sort of like
the level of mastery that if you can reach that, it can pretty
much lead you to anything. I think that even if the
industry, like we as working designers, as design educators
sit here and say, yes, we are absolutely prepared to have this
conversation. I think that there's programs
out there that are sort of already framing it like that.
So I'll, I'll fall back on just a program I'm super familiar
with, but like Jen at, at, at VGSU right there.
That or that department's motto is sort of is graduating curious
thinkers. Like that motto has nothing to
do with design. They're teaching you how to be
curious. They're teaching you how to
think, how to problem solve, and they do a really good job of
saying like, we're going to teach you how to visually
communicate and to think differently and be curious.
But there's a million in one pathways you can choose in which
to actualize those skills. And so I think even if we as an
industry, as educators are ready, the reality is the
systems that surround us are not.
I think that that legislation in Indiana where it's basically
saying like if the degree can't prove ROI, it's being cut is a
perfect example of the industry not being able to do that.
And when I try to think about or visualize like what does a
future look like where we see this as being sort of a multi
pathway, a single door leading to multiple sort of entry like
endpoints or multiple hallways. I.
Really fail to like envision a version of this where it's like
good for everybody. Because when I look at it from
sort of like the tradesmen aspect that we've been talking
about that and thinking about it as like a trade, right?
Immediately the answer to that becomes no, right?
Because no one's out here like training plumbers and saying
learning to be a plumber could lead you to all these other
things, right? Learning to be an architect can
lead you to all these other things.
And so I think that even for the purposes of like some of what
we're advocating for like it becomes are arguably harder to
do that. But at the same time, I question
like, is that necessarily a bad thing?
Because the truth is, and the reason I say the systems aren't
prepared for this is because the left hand isn't talking to the
right hand or even know what they're doing since hands can't
talk. That was a terrible metaphor.
But like I look at the rest of those statistics, right, about
how the design market is expected to grow by 2% in the
next 5 years. But I have a mandate from my
institution that we're supposed to grow our enrollment and
graduation rates in that same time frame double 100%.
So and that's one institution. And I can't imagine that we're
not. We're the only institution in
the country that's saying like you need to up your enrollment
in your graduation rates. So you want me graduating 100%
more students in the same time frame that this market is going
to grow by 2%? And there's a fewer 18 year olds
right because of the demographic.
And there's fewer 18 year olds because no one's having kids.
And then on like that's a, that's a 98% disparity
difference on top of the fact that 60% of the industry is
doing 90% of the industry's work.
If those 90% and 60% claims are like directional, right, So
you've got 90% of the industry's work being done by about half of
the people in the industry. The rest are we assume are
unemployed and you want me to double the amount of people that
I'm throwing into that system. That then becomes the question
like really the only way to show to truly grow a program would be
to, as you say, show the ways in which this can be a multi ending
sort of degree field. So that we understand that like
being an actual designer working in design isn't the only
outcome. But there's a couple problems
with that, right? One is if we're pushing for
certification in some way, shape or form, that adds another
barrier, right? But then also when we look at
other examples of degrees and programs that are often times
seen as a pathway or a moment of pivot, like an MBA, I hear often
Times Now, particularly in academic circles, which is
surprising. And MD MB A is useless and you
shouldn't get one because they're a dime a dozen.
Anyone can go get an MBA. So is it really serving you to
help you get to whatever sort of additional new pathway that
you're that you're trying to get to?
And I would, I tend to feel like I fall a little pessimistic and,
and look at sort of the homogenization of everything and
say, no, like that's not a viable path.
It's not a viable future as long as the systems that are
surrounding education, surrounding our market,
surrounding the work that we do don't also shift.
And it's so it sort of comes back to that systemic problem of
like, we can't fix this by focusing on the symptoms because
symptom management isn't going to lead us to a heart
transplant. And what our industry needs is a
heart transplant. We need to change at the heart
of us how we view what we do and why we're doing it.
And I think that also goes back into that artist neoliberal
mentality of like, oh, we just want everyone to learn design
because it's feel good and it's creative and like let people
pick fun colors and be creative problem solvers and thinkers.
But at the end of the day, every designer we're turning out that
can't get a job is US devaluing our work.
It's us devaluing our industry. We're contributing to all of the
problems that are hurting all of us.
So I think you spoke a lot about education, so I'm not sure if
that's going to be your answer. But if you could redesign one
product, one service, or one space from scratch, what would
you choose and what would? I'm going to talk about
education. Sorry.
I thought about this one deeply because there are places where
there certainly are like products or services that I
would love to change from scratch.
But like, and ultimately I sort of was torn between education
and social media because I think they're both just so central to
most every sort of social and class issue we're currently
facing at the moment. But I've, I've been so invested
in education even since I was an undergrad that it just sort of
feels like appropriate to double down and just say, of course
education, right? And I'm going to talk in really
broad strokes here. And I'm going to talk about this
from K12 up because it's like the changes I want to see are
huge. They're sweeping and I'll
probably make some people mad, but it's fine immediately.
I would do it away with every major systemic choice that has
led to a lot of the problems that we currently have in our
education system and that we're facing.
So that means like no voucher schools, no charter schools.
Funding for schools wouldn't be tied to property values, no one
without proper career or academic credentials would be a
lot to serve as Secretary of education.
And like. Ultimately, my end goal would be
I want to completely change the outcomes of what our current
system is doing and prioritize critical thinking and problem
solving skills and making higher education more affordable.
And I think that the way that we do that is we make the quality
of K through 12 education more consistent and not dependent on
what zip code you live in or the tax bracket that your neighbors
happen to be in. So it's big stuff, but it's like
fundamental stuff because it's the sort of the fundamentals
that got broken along the way. And I think the past couple of
decades, starting with No Child Left Behind and just has sort of
gotten worse since then. And being an educator, I can see
the ramifications of that. Like I see the number of
students we get into first year programs that aren't prepared
for college, that don't have college level preparation skills
that, you know, sort of don't even know how to sort of do the
basic time management, self management things that anyone
coming into college would need to have and to do.
And it's because the space that we've typically learned those
things both in home and in K through 12 education have been
sort of stripped of their ability to teach those things in
favor of standardization that has regularly weakened outcomes
for the learner. So that that's what I would
pick. Great.
I love it and to as we start to wrap up, what's something that
is has been inspiring you lately?
That could be a book, a film, a show, an exhibition, or a new
album, anything that you're. Yeah, I'm an audiophile, so
almost always it's music. I'm not big on representative
media, so I don't really often get hooked on things or watch a
lot of TV or movies. But when I do get hooked, I get
hooked hard. And heated Rivalry is just
really good. I don't know if anyone listening
has seen or heard. I can't imagine you haven't
heard of it, at least. But there's just something so
magical about queer stories that have happy endings.
Like I think the director Jacob Tierney does such a great job of
saying, like we as queer people have enough sad stories with sad
endings like, and this is a happy 1 and that so it just,
it's so good for like my creative soul to like see
happiness and see joy. But then also as someone who's
late in life, diagnosed as multiple types of
neurodivergence, seeing such like nuanced representation,
neuro divergent on screen has been healing in a way that I
didn't expect. And that's really been sort of
fueling like sort of a creative healing rather than a creative
inspiration. But on the inspirational side, I
lead a study abroad program in France every year.
I took French in high school. And so just being able to
reconnect with French culture, but also relearning the
language, so I've been taking like intensive language classes
on campus has been just been super inspirational for me.
Like there's just something so beautiful about French culture,
particularly the language that I really enjoy.
And it's been really helpful to sort of reconnect with a culture
that I've just always admired. I love it.
Thank you so much, Benji, if you share with us and our listeners
where they can find you to follow your work now.
Yeah, I'm just about to actually launch my new design practice.
It's been three years in the making.
So I've got an Instagram shell set up.
So if you want to follow me sort of professionally, you can
follow me on Instagram at critical form.
There's nothing on there yet, It's just a placeholder.
Or you can follow my personal Instagram at Benji Wilhelm if
you prefer that sort of separation between work and
personal. But then on Threads I'm trying a
less siloed approach. Also at Benji Wilhelm, where I
talk mostly design, education, and technology.
And as a true millennial, whatever random thing pops into
my head that I feel is great to complain about on the Internet
for the day. Fantastic, Benji, thank you so
much for spending the hour with us and trying to diagnose some
of these complex systemic issues in design education and the
design profession in general. So I feel like we could do a
whole series on this, but hopefully we can continue the
conversation in other forum. Thank you so much for having me.
It's been so great to talk to you.
I unfortunately don't come to the table with the solution.
The problem is bigger than I can solve.
But I'm hoping that saying, hey, look at this giant elephant
that's in the room. Can we start talking about this
leads to discussions where, to your point, we continue those
conversations and start to maybe solve some of these problems for
the betterment of all of us. Yeah, we'd love to know what our
listeners or viewers, if you're watching us on YouTube, think,
so feel free to send us an e-mail podcast@aiga.org.
We also like voicemails or just leave something in the comments
and we'd love to continue the conversation.
Otherwise, we will see you in a future episode.
Bye everyone.