1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,760 Problem that it sort of feels like no one's really talking 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,920 about, but we all sort of sense that it's there and we're 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,680 certainly all experiencing sort of like the impacts or the 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,600 consequences of some of those systemic choices that are being 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:18,000 made. Hello everyone, welcome back to 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,960 a new episode of the AIJ Design Podcast. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,480 I'm Julia Donatello, Design competitions and event manager 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,840 at AIG, the Professional Association for Design, and my 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,000 Co host. I'm Li Shan Huang, Co Executive 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,840 Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA. 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,920 So this season on the show, we are exploring the theme of eyes 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:39,880 on design. We have three different eyes, 13 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,280 each representing a different lens through which we will look 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,800 at design practice. And so the first one is the 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,400 critical eye, which is about stepping back, asking hard 16 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,480 questions about what we do as designers, what we make, the 17 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,600 industry that we're a part of, and its context in the broader 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,160 world. We also have the connecting eye 19 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,040 because we recognize that design doesn't exist in a vacuum. 20 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,480 It touches technology, business, culture, science, all sorts of 21 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:04,760 things. And so how do we connect with 22 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,600 other disciplines and people making stuff? 23 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,680 And then finally, the future. I always looking forward to see 24 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,880 where design is going, where technology is going, and how we 25 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,600 are making the future together. And our guest for this episode 26 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,640 is Benji Willem. He's worn many hats over the 27 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,720 years as an agency founder, brand strategist, design 28 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,880 educator at ASU, the Arizona State University, and now also 29 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,360 as director of strategic initiatives at UCDA, which is 30 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,080 the University and College Designers Association. 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,480 Today, he is here to talk about various things we've started 32 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,960 talking about in our pre record about power, about pay, our 33 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:47,800 compensation as designers and how to actually professionalize 34 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,160 our industry more. So welcome, Benji. 35 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:51,880 Thank you. Happy to be here. 36 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,680 Excited to be here. So, Benji, thank you so much for 37 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,040 joining us today. I wanted to hear a little bit 38 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,360 from you. How did your career start? 39 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,040 So how did you get into design? And what then also brought you 40 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,520 to design education? That's where you're working with 41 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,840 at the moment. Yeah, I so I think I got my 42 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,280 starting design the same way like most millennials of my age 43 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,760 did, right? Like it from sort of interacting 44 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,080 with sort of popular culture, album covers, T-shirts, posters, 45 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,800 things like that. Spending entirely too much time 46 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,080 trying to make my Myspace look cool while also not 47 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,400 understanding a single bit of HTML. 48 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,800 And so that's sort of like what inspired it. 49 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,200 And then from there, I just was lucky enough to realize one that 50 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,520 I sort of picked a great program to go to the undergrad for. 51 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,840 And then also was just lucky that after learning about design 52 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,000 being so many more things, I still was really excited about 53 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,760 it and wanted to continue learning and continue doing it. 54 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,400 And then sort of leading my way into design education. 55 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,840 It was always sort of at the periphery for me when I ran my 56 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,800 agency. So I've actually started my 57 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,600 agency nine months after getting out of undergrad because I 58 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,880 graduated into like a really not great economy, had a first 59 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,680 design job. It went well, but was sort of 60 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,880 seeing a non design leader sort of struggle to sell design to 61 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,400 clients. And it was a business that had 62 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,680 been running for like 15 years. And so I kind of was like, man, 63 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,440 if this guy can do it, I can do that, right? 64 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Like I'm like, this is easy. I could do this. 65 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:22,840 Like this guy can do it, I could do it. 66 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,160 And so when I got let go from that job because we lost in 67 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,800 contracts and things that just sort of happened and there was 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,000 really no work left, I was like, I'm just going to give it one 69 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,160 month. I've got a month left on my 70 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,360 lease. I'm going to give it one month, 71 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,840 try it. And if I can start making money 72 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:38,960 in 30 days, I'll just keep going with it. 73 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,000 And then like 7-8 years later, it was sort of history at that 74 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,320 point. But I always wanted to be like, 75 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,440 oh, if I'm running my own agency, I want to sort of teach 76 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,840 the way that like all of the people we learn about in design 77 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,120 school always did because that felt like a valuable way to sort 78 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,760 of contribute. But I also quickly realized out 79 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,640 of design school and while working that the one thing I 80 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,240 really missed was sort of the way that there's like that 81 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,600 culture of always learning and exploring that happened in 82 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,080 design school. And so I always tried to bring 83 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:12,040 that into how I structured the agency, but it's just not the 84 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,360 same, right? And so wanting to be an educator 85 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,079 was sort of always there. And then actually getting the 86 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,440 job as an educator was sort of a bit of serendipity and 87 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,200 necessity, to be honest, so. Yeah, I love that. 88 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:28,080 I love hearing folks how they started their own business, 89 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,880 Special Designers, because many of them run their business in 90 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,560 parallel to some other full time jobs. 91 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,600 So it's always very interesting to hear how everything started. 92 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,680 It's great that you're now teaching at ASU. 93 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,400 And I wanted to hear a little bit if you felt that your 94 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,960 perspective has changed now that you're changed the roles from, 95 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,920 you know, working in the industry and now stepping into 96 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,680 the education system. How do how do you feel that your 97 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,960 your perspective has changed? It's changed a lot, I think. 98 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,600 I think from the outside, like sort of looking in as someone 99 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,120 who is a design student, both undergrad and grad school, and 100 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,080 then also sort of a working designer, I sort of had this 101 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,480 perspective of the industry that I think was very sort of like 102 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:17,440 job focused and thinking about like, oh, what's the market 103 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,960 doing? What's job availability? 104 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,120 Like what like hiring practices, firing practice, like all of 105 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,520 those sort of logistical things. And but then also a lot of the 106 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,080 sort of like how do we as designers move up and stay and 107 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,520 like become a senior level, but not actually have to maybe go 108 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,000 into people management if we don't want to, Which often times 109 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,920 sort of feels like a, a dead end route if that's what you want to 110 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,160 do. And you're like, I just want to 111 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,640 design, but not maybe make entry level wages for my whole career. 112 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,920 But then sort of being able to see it from this sort of the 113 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,000 education insider perspective was really, really eye opening, 114 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,920 I think because it's sort of allowed me to find the ways in 115 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,360 which like the whole system started to sort of connect. 116 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:59,400 Which is really when I also started to recognize that like 117 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,520 there's a really big systemic problem that it sort of feels 118 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,440 like no one's really talking about, but we all sort of sense 119 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,120 that it's there and we're certainly all experiencing sort 120 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,120 of like the impacts or the consequences of some of those 121 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,840 systemic choices that are being made. 122 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,920 And that's sort of where I, when, you know, the call went 123 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,680 out for the podcast, I was like, hey, I have this really crazy 124 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,640 idea in the past, it's ruffled some feathers. 125 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,560 I've gotten cancelled on design Twitter before over these ideas. 126 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,360 Like would love to talk about them, but I think that that's 127 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,360 sort of the education perspective, insider perspective 128 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:36,200 really allowed me to understand in a more nuanced way, like how 129 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,520 all these pieces are connecting and has really helped me sort of 130 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,400 establish like a, an idea or a vision rather for like, here's a 131 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,920 possible way out, but like we've got to do something. 132 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,840 Yeah, I love what you're saying because I feel like when I was 133 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,440 in grad school, I went also to to design as a, as a grad 134 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,600 school. There were all of these 135 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,320 initiatives. Like I felt like majority of our 136 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,160 my, our cohort was very worried about getting a job afterwards. 137 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,000 Many of us were international. So that was a lot of struggle 138 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,720 and finding jobs. And then I remember the 139 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,080 professors were really trying to push another perspective in 140 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,920 terms of what if you don't think about this right now and 141 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,480 experience design school in a very exploratory way and like 142 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,080 not really focused on what job am I going to get? 143 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,000 How much am I going to get paid and all that. 144 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,440 So I remember also being on this space of wait, I, I, I can also 145 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,840 actually explore and live this experience in a more intentional 146 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,800 way without actually thinking so much how this is going to be 147 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,040 useful for, for the market afterwards. 148 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,720 So, yeah, I love the perspective. 149 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,360 We heard that you recently stepped into a new role as a 150 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,440 director of strategic initiatives at UCDA. 151 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,800 What does it mean? And what, what have been your 152 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,600 experiences so far, your responsibilities in the projects 153 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,080 that you've been involved? You can share a little bit about 154 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,880 it. So on the service, I think it 155 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,880 really looks like sort of figuring out what does a design 156 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,360 organization look like now, but also what does it look like sort 157 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,000 of in 510 or 20 years from now. Particularly in the context of 158 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,960 how does it serve its members when those members no longer 159 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,520 resemble the people that they were decades ago. 160 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,680 Or the the membership no longer looks like what membership and 161 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,840 design organizations looked like a decade ago. 162 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,000 Because the reality is that has shifted dramatically in the last 163 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,480 1020 years. Even when I first started going 164 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,559 to sort of AIGA design conferences and other design 165 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,400 organization events, and you know, it was always a big 166 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,960 recognizable name on stage. These celebrities, these 167 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,280 identities, these people that we would all know and we were 168 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,160 familiar with their work. And nowadays, like you talk to 169 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,320 younger designers, you talk to my students, they don't give a 170 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,200 shit about name. They don't care about celebrity, 171 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,280 right? Like millennials sort of gave us 172 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,320 stand culture, but like Gen. Z Davis influencer culture. 173 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,720 I won't get into how the lines between those blur once somebody 174 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,040 an influencer becomes so big they become celebrity. 175 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,880 But I think that even as like those cultural relationships 176 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,520 change towards people, towards reputation, so do the 177 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,440 organizations that facilitate those memberships have to then 178 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,400 change to facilitate what these people need, what these groups 179 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,760 of people need? And so part of my mandate in my 180 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,360 work is figuring out like, what is it that they need right now 181 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,360 and how can we facilitate that? How can we meet them where they 182 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,280 are? How can we engage them in a way 183 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,560 that feels natural and is in the methods that they want to 184 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,960 engage? But then also, how can we 185 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,560 continue to do that into the future while also not being so 186 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:50,080 sort of held it down by who what we think we are, what we think 187 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,680 we need to be or who we think we need to be sort of beholden to. 188 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,040 To ensure that that always stays like an open door of people, 189 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,840 like new people, fresh people coming in, moving up, caring for 190 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,680 the organization and then moving out as they sort of age through 191 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,680 through that process. Yeah, I love hearing you because 192 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,920 I think it's a little bit of what Nishan and I and the whole 193 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,760 team at AIJ also feel, that it's a little bit of the struggle on 194 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,320 how to understand more of our community, how can we serve 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,120 them? How can we create programming 196 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,840 that supports what they need now but also in the future. 197 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,680 So yeah, I think I resonate with what you're saying. 198 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,120 Yeah, I think that's a great setup for getting into the crux 199 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,680 of the controversy that you were alluding to, Benji. 200 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:38,560 So let me set that up a little bit more for folks. 201 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,880 You shared with us in the prep conversation that you found that 202 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,480 about 80% of designers today are either self-taught or they went 203 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,480 to a boot camp. So this is from Coursera and 204 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,200 career karma is the source of this. 205 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,320 And so that means like designers became designers, not through 206 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,200 going through traditional design school. 207 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,280 And I'm like the polar opposite of that as somebody who has like 208 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,760 the most like institutional and like expensive education 209 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,840 available. So part of it is generational, 210 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,480 but it's also the trade off, right? 211 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,560 It's something we think about as designers in general, but like 212 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,280 by opening the gates, by not having as much gatekeeping, 213 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,720 we're allowing for more diversity, equity, inclusion in 214 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,200 the design industry. We also are maybe losing a 215 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,600 certain kind of cohesion in terms of identity or like the 216 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,160 Canon, right? I mean, I think parts of the 217 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Canon needed to be blown up anyway. 218 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:42,160 But there there is a flip side to that in terms of like, you 219 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,800 know, we see this at a IGA, right? 220 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,520 It's not, it's no longer the place to be as a designer in the 221 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,280 way that might have been in the 90s. 222 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,440 And so how do we deal with these trade-offs? 223 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,160 And like maybe we can start with some of your thoughts on that as 224 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,000 a way to open this up. Yeah, absolutely. 225 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,520 And I would, and I would want to preface this conversation with 226 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,240 saying two things. One, that like the perspective I 227 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,280 have now as an educator revealed to me very, very quickly that 228 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,120 like, this is a systemic problem. 229 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,200 And this is not a situation where like, it's just like, oh, 230 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,520 it's the organization's fault, it's education's fault, it's the 231 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,040 market's fault. It's the industry's fault. 232 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,240 It's, you know, the way it's all regulated. 233 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,400 Like there's really no one, like there's no like big angry Red 234 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,560 Baron and with a villain mustache like cackling in the 235 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:29,560 corner. And that the duality of this 236 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,880 problem being that like, yes, we absolutely want things to be 237 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,600 more equitable. We want them to be more 238 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,200 sustainable. We want them to be more open. 239 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,600 And we want people, regardless of skin color and economic 240 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,200 background, to be able to learn design and do design and become 241 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,040 designers, right? Like those are all things that 242 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,360 we want. But those are also or just the 243 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,480 opposite side of the coin of the of a lot of the other problems 244 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,040 we're having where, you know, design software being so 245 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,000 accessible is like almost over democratizing design in a sense, 246 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:00,520 right? Like. 247 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,920 And so I think the duality of this problem sort of being like 248 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,840 it's part industry problem and like software and technology 249 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,400 based, but also part like things we actually want isn't 250 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,720 indicative of like saying that any attempt to solve these 251 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,520 problems is one that's sort of accommodating or pushing for 252 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,400 like a return to elitism. I think it actually is just a 253 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,600 signifier that like this is a big hairy problem, the kind that 254 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,560 designers love to sell the idea that we are well equipped to 255 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:31,560 solve. And so like, let's get to 256 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,640 solving it, right? Like, let's stop acting like 257 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,960 it's sort of the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk 258 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,960 about and like, let's solve this problem. 259 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,000 And so, yeah, absolutely. I think that there is sort of 260 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920 this unintentional, I described it as like a flattening that has 261 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,760 happened that you see in industry, right? 262 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,600 You've got 80% of people saying that they've never been formally 263 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,600 trained or that they learned by being self-taught or from a boot 264 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,600 camp. But then alternatively, you've 265 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,680 also got these other like data sets that say like 90% of all 266 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,120 design work in the industry currently is freelance work. 267 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,640 So that's like insanely staggering that like there's 268 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,000 only 10% of work that you can actually get paid doing a full 269 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,400 time job to do. But then you see other 270 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,440 statistics that say something like anywhere between 60 and 75% 271 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,080 of people working in design are working as freelancers. 272 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,560 So like that's kind of alarming because what that's sort of 273 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,560 telling us is a couple things. It's telling US1 there's not 274 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,400 enough jobs for everyone with a design degree to work a full 275 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,800 time paid with benefits job. The other side of that is we are 276 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,520 likely also probably graduating entirely too many designers, 277 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,000 right? So there's sort of the 278 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,280 conversation around like accessibility that has to happen 279 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:46,160 or even eligibility, I think. And then the other side of that 280 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,080 is if any of those things were to change, it still wouldn't 281 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,240 change the fact that 80% of everybody doing the work is 282 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,080 self-taught and not going to school anyway. 283 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,400 So those types of sort of like systems or checks or balances 284 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,040 wouldn't necessarily have the impact we want it to anyway. 285 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,440 And a thing that sort of come up recently that I think I saw was 286 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,840 being sort of test run in the state of Indiana is like ROI 287 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,840 evaluations on degrees. And like if you're not able to 288 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,240 prove that, like people graduating with this degree are 289 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,880 able to make a certain amount of money within so many years, it 290 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,560 gets axed from the education program. 291 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,440 Like, I don't think that's a solution either because I want 292 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,600 to live in a world where people can go to school for whatever 293 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,360 they want to learn. And like know that like even if 294 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,920 I learned this thing that maybe I'll never use it professionally 295 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,640 in the way that I maybe I learned it, it's still going to 296 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,800 benefit me and still allow me to like feed myself and put a bit 297 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,480 of a house over a roof over my head. 298 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,200 I look at this whole sort of ecosystem and I go, we need some 299 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,920 sort of system for checks and balances. 300 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,960 We need some sort of system for stratification that says there 301 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,920 are standards, that there are policies, procedures, titles, 302 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,440 certifications, something that said that insulates the industry 303 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,800 from just anybody and everybody. And when I say that, I don't 304 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,640 mean to say anyone who doesn't have a degree shouldn't be 305 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,040 allowed to work as a designer, right? 306 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,120 It's not what I'm saying at all. Some of the best user experience 307 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,120 designers I've ever had the pleasure of working with were 308 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,880 self-taught. But because they learned the 309 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,600 things that were necessary to be good user experience designers. 310 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,840 And so it's about standards and like regulating those standards 311 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,160 more so than it is about saying who isn't, who isn't. 312 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,000 And then at the end of the day, I think it's a matter of 313 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,600 understanding that these regulations need to protect us 314 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,240 both locally and globally, right? 315 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,560 So cuz the other side to this is globalization and the other side 316 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,800 to sort of anybody and everybody being able to go out and work 317 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,560 design, whether they've got a degree or not, is the question 318 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,280 of do they know the value of what they're doing right? 319 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,840 So are they charging enough? Do they know if they're charging 320 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,080 enough? Do they know how to tell if 321 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,960 they're charging enough? Because for every designer that 322 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,120 says I'll do that logo for $50 versus someone who's been 323 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,800 trained, who has the skills to know the value, who you know is 324 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,960 like, no, I can't do that logo for less than a significantly 325 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,280 higher amount because that person has school loans they 326 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,560 have to pay back, right? Like all of those things work in 327 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,319 tandem to dictate the value of design in both the market and 328 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,160 also the way that we are showing up to defend the industry and 329 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,760 our skills and our abilities. And then offshoring is another 330 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,000 big part of that, right? Because if we risk sort of 331 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,920 walling off our industry and saying you can't sell this 332 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,560 service for less than this, whether you're classically 333 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,960 trained or not, right? What's to stop them from saying 334 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,080 going overseas and getting it? Well, one way to do that would 335 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,080 be are they certified? Fine, go overseas and allow them 336 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,280 to build it, design it, but they have to have to certification 337 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,480 for our jurisdiction, for our area, whatever that looks like 338 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,320 to be able to do it, for you to be able to contract with them to 339 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,520 do it. And so I think the conversation 340 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,040 starts to sound and look a lot more like, I think the 341 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,800 conversations labor unions are having than it does sort of the 342 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,520 conversations we've had in the past. 343 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,160 Yeah, there's a lot to pick up on there. 344 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,160 And I want to circle back on this certification conversation. 345 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,040 But for us just like as a direct response, thinking about that 346 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,720 $50 logo thing, right? It's like, I think part of it is 347 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,560 also how do you explain the value of the multi $1000 logo 348 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,160 isn't about just the final deliverable. 349 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,560 It is about the process or the, you know, the brand guidelines, 350 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,480 the getting to that clarity versus, I don't know, the small 351 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,360 business owner that knows what they want. 352 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,680 Like by all means, buy that off of Fiverr, you know, like it. 353 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,840 But if you're thinking about like a brand identity, right? 354 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,760 And part of that is also a, a client education issue. 355 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,160 As we kind of circle around some of these things. 356 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,600 I wanted to paint a little bit more of the the contextual 357 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,560 picture too, since you do teach undergrads at ASU. 358 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,480 You shared with us before that there was a report that came out 359 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,960 a couple years ago in 2024 from the Federal Reserve Bank of 360 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,080 Saint Louis. It was a report called the 361 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,480 Talent Disrupted Report. And they noted that 52% of 362 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,640 college graduates these days are unemployed or underemployed. 363 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,560 I'm sorry, upon initial labor market entry. 364 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,440 So when they first graduate and then even 10 years later, 45% of 365 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,720 college graduates are underemployed. 366 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,440 So like you see this first hand and so it's that's not just 367 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,560 design graduates, but it's just like people who go to College in 368 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,160 general. This is already an issue. 369 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,000 So you can understand why people are teaching themselves to do 370 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,240 design or you know, going to other cheaper. 371 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,560 Ways. Right. 372 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,280 So and so you're, I mean, you're a university professor. 373 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,240 So how do you grapple with this realization, this reality? 374 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,360 It's tough because I am a realist in the sense that like I 375 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,880 have a, I'm not the type of educator that will stand in 376 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,040 front of a room full of students and be like, I'm going to teach 377 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,640 you things that will change your life. 378 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,240 Like you're getting, you are going to have the most magical, 379 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,040 amazing, like fruitful career because you were in my class. 380 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,000 Like that's just not how I approach this. 381 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,440 And so like, and I also, I teach the portfolio and professional 382 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,960 presentation class, which is sort of like the make my resume, 383 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,840 make my cover letter, get ready to go out in job search class. 384 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,840 And so anytime I encounter these statistics, I bring them to the 385 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,360 class and like, I know for some they're probably like, please 386 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:30,440 stop delivering me bad news. And I'm like, but it's like, I 387 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,920 just want you to understand what the state of this all looks 388 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,720 like. Because the reality is like 389 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,840 there is no more like clear. Like you do you jump to these 390 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,320 hoops in school and you leave and then you get the job and the 391 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,960 job pays you money and then you work the job and then you get 392 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,360 benefits and you retire and like life is happy. 393 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:49,120 It's like it doesn't work that way anymore. 394 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,560 And so part of that is like me just making sure that they 395 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,640 understand that like, this is the reality of the world that we 396 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,520 work in. And I have to hold that very 397 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,880 precariously because on one hand, as an academic, as someone 398 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,720 who's always loved the school and loved learning, I am like 399 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,920 super pro education. I'm like everyone should who is 400 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,440 fit for college that wants to go to college, should go to college 401 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,720 type of person. But I also recognize that, like 402 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,120 for many, like college is not the only path for you, probably 403 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:26,000 not your best path. And so I think often times when 404 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,760 I think about that relationship between like education and the 405 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,200 market and like how all those things start to connect. 406 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,800 And this was the piece I was talking about earlier where I 407 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,600 was like, it was being the insider perspective that really 408 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,040 made it all click into place for me. 409 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,680 Is that like it's fundamentally broken from like the lowest 410 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:48,640 level all the way up, right? Like the reality is every 411 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,600 student in K through 12 across this country is told that they 412 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,120 should graduate high school, get their diploma so that they can 413 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,120 go to college. That is true. 414 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:59,440 Statistically, I think for somewhere around like 43% of all 415 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,960 of them that that's actually the case that they should go to 416 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,560 college. So we have a storytelling 417 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,920 problem, we have an economic problem, we have a just a life 418 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,480 preparation problem. And I was thinking about this 419 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,000 the other day when I was trying to present to my students who 420 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,240 when I would go, how many of you want to be freelancers? 421 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,640 And none of them raised their hand. 422 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,240 And I'm like, I have bad news for you. 90% of all of the work 423 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,640 in the market right now is freelance. 424 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,600 I was thinking about like, how do we fix this? 425 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,560 Like, how do we solve this problem? 426 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,040 And I went, I think fundamentally the focus is the 427 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,840 designers need to stop thinking about themselves as artists and 428 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,960 start thinking about themselves as tradespeople. 429 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,920 Like, I think that that mentality shift could fix so 430 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,080 much. And that comes from someone with 431 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,200 ABFA degree who is proud of the fact that I have a Fine Arts 432 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,240 degree, who like, firmly believes that like, art is a 433 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,400 good foundation for design, but like, we have to stop showing up 434 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,160 as artists in the industry and we need to start showing up as 435 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,200 tradespeople. I love what you said because 436 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,840 Lishan and I have noticed that some of the learning programs 437 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,880 that AIG offers, the ones that sell the most are the business 438 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,000 programs. So it's basically designers 439 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,400 wanting to know more about business as they progress in 440 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,040 their career, as they become leaders and so on and so forth. 441 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,960 So I think that's the mentality that you're mentioning, that 442 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,400 they're walking away a little bit from the design, the 443 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,360 creative aspect of the design work only and adding up skills 444 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,120 on design and so on. So yeah, I think it makes a lot 445 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,360 of sense. And I think that that 446 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,240 perspective framing fits too with like, how do we solve the 447 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,000 stratification problem, right? And it comes down to not only 448 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,520 protecting ourselves, but also, I think, protecting the world 449 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,400 around us, right? Like an architect can't build a 450 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,040 building that's gonna fall down on top of your head, but for 451 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,720 some reason, designers and developers can build social 452 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,600 media platforms and build algorithms that undermine global 453 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,160 democracy. That doesn't make sense, right? 454 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,000 In the same way that, like a plumber can't Plumb your house 455 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,120 in a way that it's going to flood, and an electrician can't 456 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,080 wire your home in a way that it will catch fire. 457 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,640 Like it just. There's so many signs that point 458 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,240 to us reframing what we do as tradespeople rather than artists 459 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,960 and building in levels of certification that protect both 460 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,280 us so that we can sit there and say, no, I'm not going to design 461 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,120 you a social media platform that undermines global democracy. 462 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,600 And you can't fire me for telling me no because that's 463 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,880 illegal. And it hurts people in the same 464 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,920 way that an architect is like, no, I'm not going to build you a 465 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,160 deathtrap saw style skyrise building that will kill 466 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:52,960 thousands of people because that's illegal. 467 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,040 And in the same way, like that allows us to then also protect 468 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,800 the people that we're building for and also protect ourselves. 469 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,280 And so, yeah, I think that that perspective shift could be 470 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,160 hugely beneficial to how we view what we do and and why we need 471 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,560 some of the things that like I think we need to solve this 472 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,120 problem. I love this metal core, Yeah. 473 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,320 I think there's like a couple things that I wanted to come 474 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,520 back to 1 is the certification conversation and the other one 475 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,320 is like the, the parallel with unions and I'll have to cover 476 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,160 both, but why don't we jump into certification first? 477 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,880 So at AIGA we have two certification programs. 478 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,440 There's the professional designer and the design leader 479 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,520 programs that I launched and and created. 480 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,920 And it's one way of starting that right, like setting these 481 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,320 standards. We have professional standards 482 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,440 and ethics. We have intro to business 483 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,560 topics, you know, intellectual property, things like that, that 484 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,040 we think that bridges the gap between having technical skills 485 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,600 and software or creative skills with being a professional. 486 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,160 And so we're trying to fill in that gap, but, you know, we're 487 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,680 not able to be gatekeepers in the sense of like, we can talk 488 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,960 about and promote the value of this kind of certification, but 489 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,080 it's not like being an architect or a doctor or a nurse where you 490 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,520 have to be certified to practice. 491 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:23,000 But we've seen that our friends up north in Canada with RGD in 492 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,960 Ontario, they have a certification model that really 493 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,640 like sets a different kind of floor on pay and ethics and 494 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,400 technical skills and stuff like that. 495 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,120 And I know you've been talking to them a lot to see what you 496 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,640 can learn. For director, so many questions. 497 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,840 She was probably like, who is this weirdo in my inbox sending 498 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,080 me book long emails, asking millions of questions. 499 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,520 I thank her for her patience. At one point, she actually sent 500 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,400 me like legal documentation. It was basically like, I think 501 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,400 this will answer some of your questions. 502 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,600 Please just read it. Essentially, it was what she was 503 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,080 saying. But yeah, I think what RGD is 504 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,640 doing a couple things, like if I'm being completely honest, I 505 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,880 went into my understanding of RGD was sort of completely 506 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,480 different than what I ended up finding. 507 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,160 And so a little bit I was a let down cuz I was like, damn, I was 508 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,440 hoping for like the silver bullet, you know? 509 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,200 But at the same time, I think there was so much there that was 510 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,960 really, really good. And then there's a few things 511 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,360 about how it sort of came about that actually really, really 512 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,320 stood out to me that actually got my wheels spinning about 513 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,320 like, could like AIGA facilitate that? 514 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,760 Like possibly cuz thinking about like your, your sort of your 515 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,280 chapter model and things like that. 516 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,200 And so to give those who are listening a bit of a background 517 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,840 who don't know RGD registered graphic design designation 518 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,080 exists in all throughout Canada, but specifically it started in 519 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,800 Ontario, Canada. It actually started. 520 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,480 This is the part that's really impressive for me. 521 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,760 It was an act of legislation. That's the like established RGD. 522 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,600 So it was literally a motion that was put forth by the 523 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,200 legislator in Ontario to simply say RGD is an organization that 524 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:10,760 exists, that's job is to oversee the certification and standards 525 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,160 of what it means to be a certified graphic designer in 526 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,160 the province of Ontario and brought more broadly in all of 527 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,360 Canada. So very linked to sort of like 528 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,040 legal grassroots sort of efforts in that way. 529 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,680 And how that came about was actually simply because there 530 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,720 was a group of designers that were sort of always sort of at 531 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,360 the forefront of activism of like advocating for like, hey, 532 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,120 there should be sort of like certification standards. 533 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,880 There should be requirements. There should be some like a 534 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,040 group of people that I actually sort of think we're probably a 535 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,360 little psychic in a way in the sense that they sort of saw the 536 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,640 problems we're dealing with now and said there needs to be 537 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,320 something in place that protects us from this. 538 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,560 And so that legislation actually literally established RDRGD to 539 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,000 have the authority to represent and regulate graphic designers 540 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,320 in Canada. And why I think that's so 541 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,720 powerful is because we have seen even here in the States 542 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,760 recently, the value of like collective action, right? 543 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,800 Like I leave and look at like campaign organizing for like 544 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,280 mom, Donnie and AOC. Like those are things that like 545 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,120 the establishment, like that'll never work. 546 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,280 You can't do that. And then like people were just 547 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,680 like, screw it, I'm going to do it because I can and we're going 548 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,560 to prove you wrong. And then boom, they did it. 549 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,240 And people are like, holy shit, right. 550 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,080 Like I think there's so much value. 551 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,720 And just like if we just collectively agree to do this, 552 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720 this is doable. And then I think that the model 553 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,920 for advocating for the certification and the standards 554 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,400 to be legally ratified is the part that's a repeatable model, 555 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,400 right? Like it would be very easy for 556 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,840 an organization at a state level, even maybe even starting 557 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,680 thinking like locally, like at a county level or city level to 558 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,240 build connections and network with lawmakers and policy makers 559 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,760 to say, hey, this matters. Here's why this matters. 560 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,600 And I think we live in a world now where like, the reasons why 561 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,600 something like this matters are like mountains high when we 562 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,520 think about like data and privacy and just all of the 563 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,360 things that we're currently sort of dealing with is like 564 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,000 consumers that it becomes really easy to make the case of like, 565 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,280 hey, this should matter. And this absolutely does matter. 566 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,320 And here's a model and a method for doing that and helping to 567 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,520 sort of solve this problem and start to like create systems 568 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,760 that sort of protect consumers, protect us as workers. 569 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,360 And I think the part that maybe you should change or become 570 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,440 different is our our angle should not just simply be like, 571 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,320 let's get ratified is like the the department or the 572 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,920 organization that sort of has the authority to represent and 573 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,560 regulate graphic designers. But let's literally turn it into 574 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,160 like almost like a union in a sense where like there's certain 575 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,360 trades where you can't hire non union workers to do that work. 576 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,360 It's not allowed. You have to, right? 577 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,400 They're in there a door, but also like, you can't just let 578 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,600 some Joe Schmo on the side of the street come get a job at a 579 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,160 hospital and perform open heart surgery, right? 580 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,040 And so like there are like layers of protection to job 581 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,880 roles and functions that not only protect the person doing 582 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,320 the job, but also the people that they are sort of servicing 583 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,280 in that role that exist as models for like anything and 584 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,880 everything that we could possibly need. 585 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,360 And the part that like makes me crazy is I look at these models 586 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,320 and these systems that work, that function that have worked 587 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,280 forever. Granted, they've had their days 588 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,320 in the sun where maybe they were a little stronger and maybe 589 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,280 they're a little weaker, so on and so forth. 590 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,920 But then I then see the conversation from so many in the 591 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,440 industry that are like, oh, we can't do that. 592 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,320 We don't need that. That doesn't need to happen. 593 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,920 And I feel like a crazy person taking crazy pills because I'm 594 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,960 like, the answer is right there. Like we, like, we as designers 595 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,040 pride ourselves on the ability to, like, find solutions and 596 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920 bits and pieces from everywhere. And like, there are so many bits 597 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,640 and pieces everywhere that we could use. 598 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,360 Surely there is a solution we can build. 599 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,800 And instead we just go, wouldn't it be great if there's a 600 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200 solution we could do to solve and answer all these problems 601 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,360 and not just feel crazy going, yeah, the answer's right there. 602 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,520 You just don't like it. You just don't like the work 603 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,760 that it's going to require, or you know what it might imply or 604 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,520 mean about what you do before. I don't know why. 605 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,320 I, I think I, I have a couple things to help thread together a 606 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,280 couple of these thoughts. So 1 is like, if we look at 607 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,240 other like creative industries, like say, Hollywood, right? 608 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,200 Those have strong unions because of the historical context of 609 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,480 those unions, whether it's SAG, AFTRA or Ayatse for the people 610 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,200 doing the tech stuff, I think with our industry, we kind of 611 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,200 missed that historical moment. But we're in a different 612 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,120 historical moment now when you see that like people are trying 613 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,320 to organize like Amazon workers and Starbucks baristas, right? 614 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,000 So like there is a resurgence of unions. 615 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,440 We're certainly seeing this in design schools. 616 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,760 I've been part of two different union campaigns, 1st at The New 617 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,240 School at Parsons and then now at SVA that just formed a union. 618 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,720 And I can say that that actually connects to what you were saying 619 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,760 about this mindset and identity shift from artists to 620 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,240 tradesperson. I think part of it is like we 621 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:28,360 have this, like we think about this as like our identities as 622 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,760 artists, but it's also actually internalized neoliberalism. 623 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,600 And So what I do about that, yeah. 624 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240 To like, unpack that is like you have to like, stop thinking that 625 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,720 you're that special, you know? Yeah, exactly in that like, you 626 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,960 are a professional providing a service. 627 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,240 Like you do have a unique point of view. 628 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,200 I'm not saying you're not special, but that like you're 629 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,600 part of a collective group of other workers that have similar 630 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,360 skills. And yes, you are competing for 631 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,400 teaching jobs and, you know, industry jobs and whatnot, but 632 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,760 you also have or in common if you organize and act in common. 633 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,560 But I think part of this internalized like artist 634 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,760 identity is like, well, you know, you everyone else's 635 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,480 competition in that sense. One very concrete anecdote for 636 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,159 this and then I'll turn it over to you to riff on this, is that 637 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:26,120 during the unionization campaign at SVA when we were trying to 638 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,120 form the union, you have to get a certain percentage of your 639 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,159 colleagues to vote yes on the union for it to be recognized. 640 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,960 This is not just a generational issue because we have both. 641 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,760 We have older people with the, you know, pro union and older 642 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,679 people anti union, but we certainly see like younger 643 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,719 designers, younger design educators, more pro union for 644 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,880 sure. But one of the people that we 645 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,280 talked to just in terms of like, hey, do you support this union? 646 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,679 Like literally said, like your concerns are beneath me, right? 647 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,880 Because that they had like, they had a professional practice 648 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,520 outside of teaching and they treated teaching as like charity 649 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,720 work, right? Which is like, OK, that's great 650 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:07,880 that you can do that. But it also means that the only 651 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,480 people who can afford to teach are people who are already at a 652 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,200 certain level of success. But it also that narrative 653 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,360 undersells teaching as a craft in its own right, right? 654 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,400 Like it's like, I think all of us could have examples from our 655 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,880 own educational careers of like people, maybe designers who were 656 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,800 great as practitioners, who were just awful as educators, right? 657 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,920 Because you don't automatically become a good teacher just 658 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,520 because you were successful in your design practice. 659 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,120 So there's a lot there, but just wanted to put that out there for 660 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,000 you to riff on. Yeah, I, I think that that like, 661 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,280 I love the phrase you said, like internalize neoliberalism 662 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,000 because some of like the earliest conversations I've had 663 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,600 about this, and admittedly because I'm a millennial, most 664 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,520 of my big ideas start by in complaining in some form online. 665 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,680 So some of my earliest conversations about these ideas 666 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,920 have unfortunately been online in forums where nuance is not 667 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,000 appreciated and there is no room for nuance. 668 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,640 And so like when I've come up with these sort of initial 669 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,720 claims or statements, right, people in me like, oh, you're an 670 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,720 elitist. Like it's just design. 671 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:13,040 It's not that serious. Like, nobody's dying here. 672 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:19,400 You just want to like feel more like that, like elevated and you 673 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,600 think design is just sort of worth more than it is like, 674 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,320 which is crazy because it's all of the same things that you just 675 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,880 stated that like this sort of like internalized neoliberalism 676 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,120 sort of creates. So it's funny how it almost like 677 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,640 circles back is like the weapon they also lob at people with a 678 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,920 differing opinion. But I I 100% agree. 679 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,400 Like it's it creates this situation where like we are sort 680 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,320 of like, well, I I want to be creative and I want to be 681 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,520 special and I want to be unique. And it's like, yeah, like all of 682 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,680 us do. That's like a human desire and a 683 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,080 human need, but also at the end of the day, like you are 684 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,840 providing a service to an industry, to a group of people 685 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,000 in a way that is no different than a plumber or an 686 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,160 electrician. And like what is good for all of 687 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,320 us is also collectively good for you. 688 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,360 And that also sort of brings me to this, this person you 689 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,120 encountered, I thankfully have never encountered anyone like 690 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,560 this in my time yet that sort of had that that mentality. 691 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,520 I'm certain they're out there. I would hope that I would be 692 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,280 able to like suppress my sort of disgust at what they just told 693 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,200 me enough to respond eloquently and be like, well, you know, the 694 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,680 reality of your experience doesn't mean it's the reality of 695 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,880 everyone's experience. And I think if you take even a 696 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,400 second to just look around at the industry, it sort of is a 697 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,360 clear illustrator of like, that's not the case. 698 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,520 Like just because you don't maybe need that doesn't mean 699 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:42,880 that other people don't need that. 700 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,280 And then I also think it's sort of begs the question of like, 701 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:52,160 what is that transference of credibility and power in an 702 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,480 industry look like, right. I think that there is a very, 703 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,240 very clear secession problem in the design industry. 704 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,080 I think that when you look around and you see the same 705 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,720 names that you've been hearing for probably your whole career, 706 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:08,280 cuz it's been my whole career always being the ones talked 707 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,000 about on stage, invited to be a speaker here, invited to be a 708 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,080 speaker there. And yet in my time as a 709 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,720 designer, I have seen other talent grow in bloom and bud and 710 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,160 do amazing and great things and not given the same amount of 711 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,520 space and spotlight. It's evident that there's 712 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,200 clearly a secession problem in the design industry. 713 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,120 And whether that's the hooks of power, the hooks of 714 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,360 respectability, prestige, whatever it is, like there's 715 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,120 something there where you're right, there's a group of people 716 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,880 that go that's beneath me. I don't have to worry about 717 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,800 that. And that's sort of like 718 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,920 individualism that's really, really inherent in American 719 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,600 Society, I think is sort of rearing its ugly head in those 720 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,680 moments. But I don't know. 721 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,760 I don't know how to. I don't know how to convince 722 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,600 that person without just being like, just go fuck yourself. 723 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,880 Like we don't need you. I mean, I think in the same way 724 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,160 that you don't need this, we also don't need you. 725 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,560 But I also recognize that that's a little rough around the edges 726 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,280 for some. I think some of these, like 727 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,800 unions and like DSA and some of these other organizations that 728 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,960 you've mentioned before, like they see political education as 729 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,720 a big pillar of what they do, right? 730 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,320 And I'm not saying like we're indoctrinating the kids. 731 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,480 Like this is some like, Republican nightmare of what 732 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,880 university professors are doing. But it's more like, OK, well, 733 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,440 like even within a union, like I was a member of my union for 734 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,360 years. And it wasn't until actually I 735 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,280 invited some of them on a version of this podcast that 736 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,120 then they recruited me on one of the contract campaigns, right? 737 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,240 And was like, I hadn't really thought about a lot of these 738 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,520 issues. You know, I used to depend on 739 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,520 adjuncting for my income and for my health insurance, But now I 740 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,440 have a full time job at AIGA. But even though I don't depend 741 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,320 on it, I understand like the solidarity angle of this, right? 742 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,000 And also the equity angle of this of like, you can't just 743 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,840 have people who are either independently wealthy or 744 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,040 successful teaching because you know, teaching is a craft and 745 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,440 you want to have different perspectives. 746 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,320 And also. And allow people to have some 747 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,280 sort of security to develop their craft of teaching. 748 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,960 But yeah, like soapbox aside, I'm not sure, you know, it's 749 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,920 like, how do you educate these people? 750 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,480 And maybe it's also a, a generational thing because we 751 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,440 see, we have, we have a generation where the system 752 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,000 doesn't work for them and they know it and they see it, right? 753 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,400 I'm, I'm an exennial. So it's like I benefited from 754 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,120 the tail end of some of these things. 755 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,840 I actually, I started college at ASU where it was free for me 756 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,240 because I'm from Arizona and graduated, you know, in the top 757 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,880 5% of my class. And I have no idea what the 758 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,440 tuition is these days, but I bet it's not free, right? 759 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,840 It's still very, very cheap for in state though, believe it or 760 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,920 not, like ASU has. I'm going to try not to get 761 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,240 myself fired. There are a lot of things ASU 762 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,320 does that make me angry as an educator, but there's also so 763 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,760 much that they do to advance equity and accessibility just to 764 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,720 education in ways that I think is incredibly powerful. 765 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,120 But in a way that also is clear that the our institution is 766 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,160 recognizing that like Arizona's dead last in public education. 767 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:14,840 Like it's, it's a clear, like you can see that it's a clear 768 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,760 acknowledgement of like we're trying to help in the way that 769 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,320 our state is failing, which I I love about this institution. 770 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,160 It's some like it's a value alignment that I absolutely 771 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,880 adore and like would not be here if not for those types of value 772 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,200 alignments. But you're right, they're we're 773 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,800 I think millennials are kind of the first generation. 774 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,520 It was like they were like here American Dream, just kidding, 775 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,000 right? And so we're Gen. 776 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,680 Z. It was sort of like they grew up 777 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,120 knowing like there really wasn't one and that it wasn't there. 778 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,400 And I think that it sort of ties back into what we were saying 779 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,000 earlier about like a job at UCDA or your guys's job at AIGA, 780 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,920 right? It's like, here's this 781 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,720 generation of people that are very community minded. 782 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,680 And the irony like look at what they've done to celebrity 783 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,000 culture versus influence culture. 784 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,200 Like influence culture is a symptom of a desire for 785 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,760 community. But the reason that's the 786 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,120 outcome and not something stronger or something better, 787 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,560 like honest to God, good strong communities around our country 788 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,680 is because America has lost the ability to build community. 789 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,640 We don't know how to build strong communities anymore. 790 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,600 And this is a generation of people that want community. 791 00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:26,840 If you look at the impacts that they've done on the economy, 792 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,320 from the way that they've changed what the sort of 793 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,680 marketing buyer cycle looks like to them inventing influencer 794 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,880 culture to how insanely popular TikTok is, this is a group of 795 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,680 people that want connection above everything else. 796 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,160 And they recognize that they're lacking in it. 797 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,120 And so like, this is a, as you said, another historical moment 798 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,680 where like, we can strike while the iron's hot and we can really 799 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,760 turn this into something that like, benefits not only us in 800 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:01,360 the last few decades of our own careers, but like our industry 801 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,280 for generations to come if we do it right. 802 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,200 And I just hope to God we do something because my biggest 803 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,560 fear is that like, we'll do nothing and we will lose these 804 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,440 organizations in these institutions because this 805 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,880 generation in this mindset shift will prove that these 806 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,160 institutions aren't necessary and that they're not needed. 807 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,240 Because when they had the opportunity to step up and do 808 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,520 the thing that we needed them to do, they didn't. 809 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,360 And I know that, like, nothing lasts forever. 810 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,320 Nothing is permanent. But I also know that it's a hell 811 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,080 of a lot easier to turn a ship around than it is to build a new 812 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,440 one. Benji, thank you so much. 813 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,400 No, this is such a thoughtful or fruitful conversation. 814 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,680 My, my, my brain is, is on fire. I want to bring back the the 815 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,280 comment you brought in the beginning, but also now about 816 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,080 influencers and celebrity. So we know that younger 817 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,160 designers at the moment, they don't really have the same 818 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,640 relationship to celebrities that previous generations had. 819 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,680 Yeah. They're basically basically not 820 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,280 really looking for a name on the pedestal. 821 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,720 So what does it mean for organizations like ours, like 822 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:14,080 AIG, like UCDA, how we think about who to bring to the stage 823 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:19,280 or how to platform these folks? How how do you how do you go 824 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,400 about it? So from my experience and what 825 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,720 I've seen as an educator, and this is some of like the 826 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,800 strategy that I'm trying to bring to UCDA as we continue to 827 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,880 work forward, is that this generation, these students, 828 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,000 these people, these young designers, correct? 829 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,640 They have no relationship to celebrity. 830 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,120 They don't care about big names. It's not going to sell tickets, 831 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,280 it's not going to get asses and seats. 832 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,680 It's not going to fill your event. 833 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,240 It just won't because it's not a draw for them. 834 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,840 But what they do value is learning, community and 835 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,400 collaboration and Co creation. And So what we as institutions 836 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,200 and organizations need to do if we want to continue to platform 837 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,560 good design, both work outcomes and then the people behind them 838 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:07,680 is find ways to create spaces where these individuals, these 839 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,200 students, these young designers, this generation can Co 840 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,400 collaborate, Co work, Co create, but also Co support one another, 841 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,320 right? And so it's no longer about, oh, 842 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,080 we've got some big name coming in to give this really awesome, 843 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,880 great talk. Instead, it's, hey, we've got 844 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,280 this really great group of people and instead of standing 845 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,800 them on a stage and having them talk at you for 40 minutes, 846 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,520 instead they're gonna share with you how they work together. 847 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,360 And they're gonna share with you how they build community and how 848 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,080 they work creatively, collaboratively, right? 849 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,960 Because those are the things that this generation cares 850 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,120 about. They wanna know how to work and 851 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,680 build and make together. And some person on a stage who's 852 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,560 made more money than they could ever possibly imagine or think 853 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,760 that they could ever make isn't going to be able to connect with 854 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,000 them in a way that someone who's talking about the types of 855 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,400 experiences that they wanna have, or a group of people 856 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,040 talking about the types of experiences they wanna have 857 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,640 would absolutely connect with them. 858 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,120 Right? And it's sort of like a 859 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,000 shifting. It's like there's this phrase in 860 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,480 academia for teaching. I heard it a couple times in my 861 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,320 own undergrad. I've heard it much more 862 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,440 frequently now as an educator plugged into like pedagogical 863 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,520 circles, which is this idea of like, you no longer want to be 864 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,800 the sage on a stage and you want to be like the guide on the 865 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,040 side. It's sort of that same idea, 866 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:28,120 right? Like we need to think about 867 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,400 creating events and spaces where we are bringing in guides who 868 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:39,960 can help guide and directly connect solutions to problems 869 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,320 that these people are having. And in that also mirror up their 870 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,360 practice or in the, or the ways that they want their practice to 871 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,240 work or their creative habits to work. 872 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,560 Rather than thinking about like what sage can we sort of put on 873 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,800 that stage to sort of drive interest or prop something up? 874 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,640 And I've seen the value in that because you would be shocked at 875 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,480 the number of students I have who will recognize like there's 876 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,000 sort of a learning pathway in the program that doesn't exist. 877 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,560 Or maybe there's this area of special learning that doesn't 878 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,600 exist in the program and they will not blink or think twice 879 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:22,600 about spending $1000 on a workshop with this person online 880 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:25,360 who's like, I'm basically going to teach you how to build these 881 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,520 things the way I build these things or the way I make these 882 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,920 things. So they're invested in, in like 883 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,040 expanding their knowledge and building their skill set. 884 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,920 But they're not, they don't want to do it the same way that older 885 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,400 generations have done it, right? We they don't want to do it from 886 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,560 the perspective of like sort of talk at me and I will sort of 887 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,880 put the pieces together and sort of reverse engineer it. 888 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,400 They say I want you to stand next to me and guide me and show 889 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,920 me. Yeah, that's great. 890 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,000 That's beautiful. I know we're not going to solve 891 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,200 all of these issues in an hour long podcast, but I did want to 892 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,360 circle back to one of the sobering statistics from earlier 893 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,440 in our conversation about like the underemployed college 894 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,680 graduates even 10 years out and the Uber ification and the 895 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,880 freelancer fication of design in particular. 896 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,400 One of the things I've been thinking about is how we start 897 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,640 to reframe design education as an entry point and that there 898 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,800 are certain that there can be multiple visions of success, 899 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,920 right? Like for some people, it could 900 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,760 mean like starting your own studio or becoming a partner at 901 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,400 Pentagram just as safer law school. 902 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,280 It means becoming a partner in a white shoe law firm. 903 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,640 But also going to law school opens up, it's like a 904 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,080 prerequisite to becoming a politician in a lot of ways, 905 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,320 right? Or you could work in corporate 906 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,440 environments as a lawyer, you know, even if you don't pass the 907 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,360 bar exam. But that law degree or that MBA 908 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,000 opens up a lot of other things. And it's not seen as like a 909 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,000 failure of not using your degree. 910 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,080 Whereas with designers, often it's like, oh, if you didn't, if 911 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,320 you're not doing what you went to school for, it's seen as 912 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,960 like, oh, you, you know, wasted your degree. 913 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,720 Is that a kind of narrative that you introduce when you talked to 914 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:12,360 your students about this? Because, you know, they know the 915 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,560 statistics, too, where you tell them the statistics. 916 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,760 So how do you, like, reframe a design education as like an 917 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,640 entry point? It's all sorts of other things. 918 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,120 Yeah, it's a really great question and I honestly don't 919 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,440 know that I'm even the best person to answer because I don't 920 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,200 know that I do it well, which is funny because I feel like I've 921 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,280 done a little bit of everything with using my design degree 922 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,560 because like I tell all my students like no one thinks the 923 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,960 way designer thinks. And like that's your superpower 924 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,120 is like learning how to think differently and see things 925 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,240 differently is sort of like where all of the everything that 926 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,800 we do sort of comes from. And so like that's sort of like 927 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,440 the level of mastery that if you can reach that, it can pretty 928 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,160 much lead you to anything. I think that even if the 929 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,560 industry, like we as working designers, as design educators 930 00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,400 sit here and say, yes, we are absolutely prepared to have this 931 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,000 conversation. I think that there's programs 932 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,840 out there that are sort of already framing it like that. 933 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,840 So I'll, I'll fall back on just a program I'm super familiar 934 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,080 with, but like Jen at, at, at VGSU right there. 935 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,080 That or that department's motto is sort of is graduating curious 936 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,080 thinkers. Like that motto has nothing to 937 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,200 do with design. They're teaching you how to be 938 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,520 curious. They're teaching you how to 939 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,160 think, how to problem solve, and they do a really good job of 940 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,360 saying like, we're going to teach you how to visually 941 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,640 communicate and to think differently and be curious. 942 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,840 But there's a million in one pathways you can choose in which 943 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,720 to actualize those skills. And so I think even if we as an 944 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,000 industry, as educators are ready, the reality is the 945 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,920 systems that surround us are not. 946 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,000 I think that that legislation in Indiana where it's basically 947 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,040 saying like if the degree can't prove ROI, it's being cut is a 948 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,520 perfect example of the industry not being able to do that. 949 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,400 And when I try to think about or visualize like what does a 950 00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,200 future look like where we see this as being sort of a multi 951 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,880 pathway, a single door leading to multiple sort of entry like 952 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,480 endpoints or multiple hallways. I. 953 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,760 Really fail to like envision a version of this where it's like 954 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,960 good for everybody. Because when I look at it from 955 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,880 sort of like the tradesmen aspect that we've been talking 956 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,440 about that and thinking about it as like a trade, right? 957 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,360 Immediately the answer to that becomes no, right? 958 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,160 Because no one's out here like training plumbers and saying 959 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,360 learning to be a plumber could lead you to all these other 960 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,840 things, right? Learning to be an architect can 961 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:33,960 lead you to all these other things. 962 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,880 And so I think that even for the purposes of like some of what 963 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,960 we're advocating for like it becomes are arguably harder to 964 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,160 do that. But at the same time, I question 965 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,240 like, is that necessarily a bad thing? 966 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:50,360 Because the truth is, and the reason I say the systems aren't 967 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,480 prepared for this is because the left hand isn't talking to the 968 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,360 right hand or even know what they're doing since hands can't 969 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:57,760 talk. That was a terrible metaphor. 970 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,280 But like I look at the rest of those statistics, right, about 971 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,960 how the design market is expected to grow by 2% in the 972 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,440 next 5 years. But I have a mandate from my 973 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,440 institution that we're supposed to grow our enrollment and 974 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,120 graduation rates in that same time frame double 100%. 975 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,160 So and that's one institution. And I can't imagine that we're 976 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,760 not. We're the only institution in 977 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,800 the country that's saying like you need to up your enrollment 978 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,680 in your graduation rates. So you want me graduating 100% 979 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,680 more students in the same time frame that this market is going 980 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,040 to grow by 2%? And there's a fewer 18 year olds 981 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,320 right because of the demographic. 982 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,560 And there's fewer 18 year olds because no one's having kids. 983 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,120 And then on like that's a, that's a 98% disparity 984 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,200 difference on top of the fact that 60% of the industry is 985 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,040 doing 90% of the industry's work. 986 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:50,480 If those 90% and 60% claims are like directional, right, So 987 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,480 you've got 90% of the industry's work being done by about half of 988 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,360 the people in the industry. The rest are we assume are 989 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,440 unemployed and you want me to double the amount of people that 990 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,120 I'm throwing into that system. That then becomes the question 991 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,120 like really the only way to show to truly grow a program would be 992 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,800 to, as you say, show the ways in which this can be a multi ending 993 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,400 sort of degree field. So that we understand that like 994 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,400 being an actual designer working in design isn't the only 995 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,320 outcome. But there's a couple problems 996 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,920 with that, right? One is if we're pushing for 997 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,120 certification in some way, shape or form, that adds another 998 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,600 barrier, right? But then also when we look at 999 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,120 other examples of degrees and programs that are often times 1000 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,160 seen as a pathway or a moment of pivot, like an MBA, I hear often 1001 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,360 Times Now, particularly in academic circles, which is 1002 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,640 surprising. And MD MB A is useless and you 1003 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,800 shouldn't get one because they're a dime a dozen. 1004 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,880 Anyone can go get an MBA. So is it really serving you to 1005 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,840 help you get to whatever sort of additional new pathway that 1006 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,280 you're that you're trying to get to? 1007 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,920 And I would, I tend to feel like I fall a little pessimistic and, 1008 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,360 and look at sort of the homogenization of everything and 1009 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,440 say, no, like that's not a viable path. 1010 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,000 It's not a viable future as long as the systems that are 1011 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,520 surrounding education, surrounding our market, 1012 00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:13,160 surrounding the work that we do don't also shift. 1013 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,440 And it's so it sort of comes back to that systemic problem of 1014 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:22,880 like, we can't fix this by focusing on the symptoms because 1015 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,440 symptom management isn't going to lead us to a heart 1016 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,960 transplant. And what our industry needs is a 1017 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,360 heart transplant. We need to change at the heart 1018 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,600 of us how we view what we do and why we're doing it. 1019 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,640 And I think that also goes back into that artist neoliberal 1020 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,480 mentality of like, oh, we just want everyone to learn design 1021 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,120 because it's feel good and it's creative and like let people 1022 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,160 pick fun colors and be creative problem solvers and thinkers. 1023 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,880 But at the end of the day, every designer we're turning out that 1024 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,000 can't get a job is US devaluing our work. 1025 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,720 It's us devaluing our industry. We're contributing to all of the 1026 00:54:57,720 --> 00:54:59,320 problems that are hurting all of us. 1027 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:04,360 So I think you spoke a lot about education, so I'm not sure if 1028 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,160 that's going to be your answer. But if you could redesign one 1029 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:13,360 product, one service, or one space from scratch, what would 1030 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,760 you choose and what would? I'm going to talk about 1031 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:18,560 education. Sorry. 1032 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,360 I thought about this one deeply because there are places where 1033 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,400 there certainly are like products or services that I 1034 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:25,720 would love to change from scratch. 1035 00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:29,800 But like, and ultimately I sort of was torn between education 1036 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,920 and social media because I think they're both just so central to 1037 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,040 most every sort of social and class issue we're currently 1038 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,880 facing at the moment. But I've, I've been so invested 1039 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,160 in education even since I was an undergrad that it just sort of 1040 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,760 feels like appropriate to double down and just say, of course 1041 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,960 education, right? And I'm going to talk in really 1042 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,240 broad strokes here. And I'm going to talk about this 1043 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,600 from K12 up because it's like the changes I want to see are 1044 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,040 huge. They're sweeping and I'll 1045 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,360 probably make some people mad, but it's fine immediately. 1046 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,080 I would do it away with every major systemic choice that has 1047 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,200 led to a lot of the problems that we currently have in our 1048 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,720 education system and that we're facing. 1049 00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:10,360 So that means like no voucher schools, no charter schools. 1050 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:15,240 Funding for schools wouldn't be tied to property values, no one 1051 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:18,080 without proper career or academic credentials would be a 1052 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,040 lot to serve as Secretary of education. 1053 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,800 And like. Ultimately, my end goal would be 1054 00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,960 I want to completely change the outcomes of what our current 1055 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,960 system is doing and prioritize critical thinking and problem 1056 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,480 solving skills and making higher education more affordable. 1057 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,960 And I think that the way that we do that is we make the quality 1058 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,520 of K through 12 education more consistent and not dependent on 1059 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,240 what zip code you live in or the tax bracket that your neighbors 1060 00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:49,120 happen to be in. So it's big stuff, but it's like 1061 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,600 fundamental stuff because it's the sort of the fundamentals 1062 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,880 that got broken along the way. And I think the past couple of 1063 00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,760 decades, starting with No Child Left Behind and just has sort of 1064 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,680 gotten worse since then. And being an educator, I can see 1065 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,840 the ramifications of that. Like I see the number of 1066 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,560 students we get into first year programs that aren't prepared 1067 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,640 for college, that don't have college level preparation skills 1068 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:20,880 that, you know, sort of don't even know how to sort of do the 1069 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,520 basic time management, self management things that anyone 1070 00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,680 coming into college would need to have and to do. 1071 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,000 And it's because the space that we've typically learned those 1072 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,560 things both in home and in K through 12 education have been 1073 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,080 sort of stripped of their ability to teach those things in 1074 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:47,080 favor of standardization that has regularly weakened outcomes 1075 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,320 for the learner. So that that's what I would 1076 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,200 pick. Great. 1077 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,600 I love it and to as we start to wrap up, what's something that 1078 00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,640 is has been inspiring you lately? 1079 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:04,800 That could be a book, a film, a show, an exhibition, or a new 1080 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,520 album, anything that you're. Yeah, I'm an audiophile, so 1081 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,720 almost always it's music. I'm not big on representative 1082 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,760 media, so I don't really often get hooked on things or watch a 1083 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,800 lot of TV or movies. But when I do get hooked, I get 1084 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,200 hooked hard. And heated Rivalry is just 1085 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,400 really good. I don't know if anyone listening 1086 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,560 has seen or heard. I can't imagine you haven't 1087 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,040 heard of it, at least. But there's just something so 1088 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,640 magical about queer stories that have happy endings. 1089 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,680 Like I think the director Jacob Tierney does such a great job of 1090 00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,560 saying, like we as queer people have enough sad stories with sad 1091 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,720 endings like, and this is a happy 1 and that so it just, 1092 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,840 it's so good for like my creative soul to like see 1093 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,400 happiness and see joy. But then also as someone who's 1094 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,360 late in life, diagnosed as multiple types of 1095 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,320 neurodivergence, seeing such like nuanced representation, 1096 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,720 neuro divergent on screen has been healing in a way that I 1097 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,160 didn't expect. And that's really been sort of 1098 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,760 fueling like sort of a creative healing rather than a creative 1099 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,600 inspiration. But on the inspirational side, I 1100 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:10,040 lead a study abroad program in France every year. 1101 00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,320 I took French in high school. And so just being able to 1102 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,760 reconnect with French culture, but also relearning the 1103 00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,760 language, so I've been taking like intensive language classes 1104 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,680 on campus has been just been super inspirational for me. 1105 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,320 Like there's just something so beautiful about French culture, 1106 00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,040 particularly the language that I really enjoy. 1107 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,160 And it's been really helpful to sort of reconnect with a culture 1108 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,400 that I've just always admired. I love it. 1109 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:37,960 Thank you so much, Benji, if you share with us and our listeners 1110 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,720 where they can find you to follow your work now. 1111 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,400 Yeah, I'm just about to actually launch my new design practice. 1112 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:46,760 It's been three years in the making. 1113 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,040 So I've got an Instagram shell set up. 1114 00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,280 So if you want to follow me sort of professionally, you can 1115 00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,240 follow me on Instagram at critical form. 1116 00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:55,680 There's nothing on there yet, It's just a placeholder. 1117 00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:59,320 Or you can follow my personal Instagram at Benji Wilhelm if 1118 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,800 you prefer that sort of separation between work and 1119 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,160 personal. But then on Threads I'm trying a 1120 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:08,000 less siloed approach. Also at Benji Wilhelm, where I 1121 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,760 talk mostly design, education, and technology. 1122 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,920 And as a true millennial, whatever random thing pops into 1123 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,440 my head that I feel is great to complain about on the Internet 1124 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,400 for the day. Fantastic, Benji, thank you so 1125 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,520 much for spending the hour with us and trying to diagnose some 1126 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,720 of these complex systemic issues in design education and the 1127 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,160 design profession in general. So I feel like we could do a 1128 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,760 whole series on this, but hopefully we can continue the 1129 01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,360 conversation in other forum. Thank you so much for having me. 1130 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,720 It's been so great to talk to you. 1131 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,200 I unfortunately don't come to the table with the solution. 1132 01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,120 The problem is bigger than I can solve. 1133 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,960 But I'm hoping that saying, hey, look at this giant elephant 1134 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:47,600 that's in the room. Can we start talking about this 1135 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,640 leads to discussions where, to your point, we continue those 1136 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,120 conversations and start to maybe solve some of these problems for 1137 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,960 the betterment of all of us. Yeah, we'd love to know what our 1138 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,720 listeners or viewers, if you're watching us on YouTube, think, 1139 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,640 so feel free to send us an e-mail podcast@aiga.org. 1140 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,520 We also like voicemails or just leave something in the comments 1141 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,440 and we'd love to continue the conversation. 1142 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,760 Otherwise, we will see you in a future episode. 1143 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:15,760 Bye everyone.