1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,720 Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang, Co 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,880 Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,800 professional association for design. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,440 This season we are exploring the theme of design and performance 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,000 and all the different nuances and facets of what those words 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,040 mean. And now for my Co host. 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,080 I'm Julia Donatello, design competitions and event manager 9 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:29,200 at AIG. And our guest this episode is 10 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,200 George A. He is the Co founder and Co 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,240 executive director of Greater Good Studio based in Chicago. 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:38,920 George, it's so great to have you here on the show. 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,160 Thanks so much for having me, Le, Sean and Julia. 14 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:45,120 It's great to meet, you know, get a chance to be able to work 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:46,480 with you on this podcast. Thanks. 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,320 Totally. So let's just jump into things 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,560 to get to know you a little bit more beyond your job title and 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,240 your affiliation. You also describe yourself as a 19 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,080 pissed off optimist that's on your LinkedIn right now. 20 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,440 Can you elaborate what that means to be a pissed off 21 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,040 optimist so our listeners and our viewers, if you're watching 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,320 this on YouTube, can understand a little bit more of your 23 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:10,000 journey and how you got to your particular point of view on 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,720 design? Sure, sure. 25 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,720 Thanks so much for that question this term. 26 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,440 I swear Sarah my Co founder coined it and I just recently 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,920 hearing from her that she thinks I did this so I can't. 28 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,080 Now nobody seems to remember who first came up with this term, 29 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,880 but I think the two of us would identify as that very early on. 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,640 And the idea of wanting to be a balance of recognizing how 31 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,200 broken and sort of screwed up the world seems to be. 32 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,080 And suddenly since January that feels to be even more 33 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,400 heightened. But the idea that we might also 34 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,360 want to maintain a level of optimism or hope that things 35 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,400 could be better might seem as though they are in Congress or 36 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,880 mutually exclusive. And I think the idea that 37 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,720 actually we could be both at the same time and that we might need 38 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,280 to be both might be a way to help navigate how crazy things 39 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,600 feel right now. And actually, it's more like a 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,960 perpetual state of, of, of being. 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,880 Because if we can't do both, you might overcome with too much 42 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,680 anger, will be overcome with too much naivety and maybe miss 43 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,600 something. So we thought it was important 44 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,200 that we kind of name this, this feeling of being an pissed off 45 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,400 optimist for ourselves. And we've actually found that 46 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,400 it's been quite a helpful way of identifying our clients. 47 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,960 It's been a helpful way of identifying people we've hired 48 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,440 at the studio. And then it turns out, I think 49 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,960 after somewhere thinking about a little more, we started naming 50 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,200 it a little more frequently at everywhere. 51 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,000 And we think there's a bunch of pistol optimists all over the 52 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,000 place. Yeah, that's great. 53 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,720 For me that that motto, that tagline, pissed off optimist, it 54 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,000 kind of reminds me philosophically of what it's 55 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,360 like to be a designer in general. 56 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,960 Because in on one hand, like the pissed off part is like being a 57 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,640 constant malcontent or we're unhappy with the status quo, 58 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:00,960 right? It's like the world could be 59 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,760 more beautiful, more just whatever. 60 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,920 That's why we make new things or redesign existing things. 61 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,640 And then the optimism part is like, you have to believe that 62 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:11,040 things can be better or else there's kind of no point in 63 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,320 doing your work, right? So like, it's this kind of 64 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,560 constant tension of like not being so naive, but also like 65 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,960 not being angry all the time and finding that in between spaces. 66 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,760 Like I think the drive for a lot of designers and other creative 67 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,800 folks. Yeah, I think that that is very 68 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,640 much tied to an attitude of design. 69 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:30,200 And I do think that the creative act of making new things or 70 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,080 stewing on something and then generating something, a 71 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,960 response, it's a self perform for resistance. 72 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,760 And it's a form of of not letting the status quo become 73 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,240 the only reality we have. I think designers are uniquely 74 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,920 suited to create whole new worlds when given the chance. 75 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,160 And we wouldn't want to do that if we didn't think that there's 76 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,960 something perhaps could be maybe improved upon or better or more 77 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,720 just. And I think when I was early on 78 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,560 in my career, I think I just wanted things to be cooler. 79 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,320 I think it was really as basic as that, like this is not as 80 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,800 cool as it could be. And I think I've just started to 81 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,000 realize that perhaps the brokenness or the way things are 82 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,440 right now might not just be because of a temporary moment in 83 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,760 time, but rather because the systems have been set up that 84 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,480 way. So that kind of awareness I 85 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,680 think is it's a very sobering realization and I think it's 86 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,960 part of my journey as a designer in working in the social sector. 87 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,440 Totally. And you're kind of taking this 88 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,320 on the road, right? You're doing a tour. 89 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,840 We were talking about this before we started rolling, but 90 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:33,640 you're currently on an angry hour for pissed off optimist 91 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,800 tour on multiple cities. So can you tell us more about 92 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,400 that? What inspired you to create 93 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,000 that? How has it been going so far? 94 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,360 Yeah, I think it's an interesting chance right now 95 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,840 where Sarah and the team and I have been thinking about how to 96 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:51,320 be more in person with so many other pissed off optimist that 97 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,520 we might know or perhaps haven't yet met. 98 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,160 And the idea of being able to do that in person with very little 99 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,960 programming, very little sort of like formal structure. 100 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,760 There's not really a run of show. 101 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,360 It is literally meat for drinks after work. 102 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,240 And we realize if we could, if we could name it and then have 103 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,600 the idea that going there will let you meet with other people 104 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,440 who are like minded, might take care of a big chunk of the 105 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,160 programming and the facilitation. 106 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,600 Because perhaps when you go to those events, there's a lot more 107 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,920 structure when people are misaligned. 108 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,480 And I think being attitudinally aligned takes actually does a 109 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,400 little heavy lifting. So being attitudinal alignment 110 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,840 is that you could show up at a place for drinks and kind of go, 111 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:36,840 Oh my God, this, Can you believe this just happened all. 112 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,720 Have you seen this latest headline? 113 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,360 All this nuttiness doesn't seem real. 114 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,240 Are you seeing what I'm seeing? And I think in some of the 115 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,560 spaces that might not always be true. 116 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,520 So meeting up for drinks, being able to vent a little, but then 117 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,640 also note that you're in community with other like minded 118 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,800 people. We thought there might be value 119 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,000 in that. So we have now done it in 120 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,560 Chicago and we sold out 100 tickets. 121 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,400 We did it in Brooklyn. We sold out 400 tickets there or 122 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,320 so sorry, 60 tickets. And we had some really great 123 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,080 assistance from Stacey who runs the AIG in New York chapter. 124 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,040 And yeah, so we have Philadelphia and Austin on the 125 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,280 books with Sarah going to be handling the Austin one and 126 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,600 others are to be D to be announced and hopefully we'll do 127 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,400 a couple more. Wonderful. 128 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:22,840 Yeah. That sounds like a great way to 129 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:25,880 like send a different kind of bat signal out there. 130 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,400 So it's not necessarily just a profession based or demographic 131 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,200 based thing. It really is like as you were 132 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,720 saying, attitudinal. So you're trying to get like 133 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,600 minded people in a room together, right? 134 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,920 Especially after being a part during the pandemic or just 135 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:45,440 feeling isolated because of what's going on in politics and 136 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,200 and world events and and things like that. 137 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,400 I wanted to jump back in time a little bit and then we'll come 138 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,080 back to asking you more questions about your work and 139 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:54,240 your background and stuff like that. 140 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,720 But this goes back to 2020, which is when we were all apart 141 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,480 at home, isolated during the pandemic. 142 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,560 And you wrote an article that you published on Medium that was 143 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,840 addressed to AIGA leadership at the time, which Julia didn't 144 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,360 work here yet. And I was here, but I was not in 145 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,680 a leadership position. But you were basically calling 146 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,400 out that the American in AIGA, American Institute of Graphic 147 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Arts, not just that AIGA, but in the United States in general, 148 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,960 has been treated as synonymous with white American, European, 149 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,640 American, particularly though within professional design 150 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,160 organizations and just the history of design and the 151 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,440 history of design pedagogy for sure. 152 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,080 So looking back on this article, I know five years of past 153 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,400 leadership has changed and and all of that and and we're in it 154 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,520 in another Trump presidency. But, you know, so, yeah, looking 155 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,160 back on this, you know, how do you think about this sort of 156 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,480 thinking back on this article, it's really just an open-ended 157 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,880 way to set this up and have you refund this since it's been five 158 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,520 years. Yeah, Thanks so much, Lisa, for 159 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,200 bringing this question up. I think I was genuinely 160 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,960 surprised when I got the invite to come speak on your podcast 161 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,280 because I remember thinking like, wait, you know, you know, 162 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,160 I, like, pissed off everybody at AIGA when I wrote that thing, 163 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,080 right? Like, I just wanted to make sure 164 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,840 that you knew that I knew that you knew, Yeah. 165 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,280 That I wasn't getting mistaken for like somebody else. 166 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,040 Yeah, the other one. The other one, and I think I 167 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,160 remember thinking like, Are you sure you want me on? 168 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,360 Because I, you know, I'm, I don't do a lot of these 169 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,280 necessarily and I don't want to make anybody feel, uh, 170 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,039 unnecessarily uncomfortable. And I just want to make sure 171 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,280 that you feel like, OK, look, as long as I were to come on that 172 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,480 we could make a, a good faith effort of, of wanting to discuss 173 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,120 this and not pretend that I hadn't written the piece. 174 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,600 Certainly in my eye at the national ball at the time, I 175 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,800 think was quite poignant because I was feeling a lot of pressure 176 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:02,520 around that moment of almost being seen as some sort of race 177 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,120 expert when I definitely am not. I think I suddenly have my own 178 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,600 relationship, my own racial identity that I'm still working 179 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,960 through. But I was suddenly to notice 180 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,040 that perhaps I was starting to become handy like some sort of 181 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,640 like go to. But I'd also appreciate that in 182 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,400 this more recent effort, they seem to be a genuine effort on 183 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,200 your part of wanting to have a discussion. 184 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,280 And I also appreciate the fact that they were, you know, to PSC 185 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,520 presenting interviews on the podcast that seemed to be 186 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:31,920 running this. And I felt like, OK, well, 187 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,520 maybe, maybe there's a shot that we could we could talk about 188 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,480 this and not not skirt around too much. 189 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,080 I also know that, you know what, when I first wrote that piece 190 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,160 that I was pretty sure I was only going to end up damaging a 191 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,600 number of relationships where they had built up over time at 192 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,400 AIGA. But I think what I was seeing is 193 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:56,600 this pattern of being called to help soothe these predominantly 194 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,560 white groups of people with my advice or my thoughts on race. 195 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,040 And to a degree I was thinking, oh, that must be, that's 196 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,800 actually kind of not like I, I think I was, I was benefiting in 197 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,200 a way that felt quite stroked by ego to think that oh, I might, 198 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:11,680 maybe I had to have something to say. 199 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,680 But then I said to the notice that perhaps am I being used in 200 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,640 some way? And is there a risk of being 201 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,400 used as a potential wedge? This is something that's I think 202 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,320 a little newer to me in recognizing that perhaps my own 203 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,600 racial identity might have a longer story than just me right 204 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,520 now. I mean, there's an aspect of me 205 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,840 showing up as an Asian male with a British accent that I think 206 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,640 I've certainly seen in America can be disarming perhaps. 207 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,880 But I noticed that more and more I've I've seen this with other 208 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:51,680 groups I've been an advisor to that my racial identity might 209 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:55,000 play into a larger model minority myth that's been around 210 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,400 for a long time. And that Asian Americans being 211 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,600 used in a way that actually acts as a a wedge towards anti 212 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,960 blackness has not been something that I was really aware of. 213 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,720 I think that's newer language for me. 214 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,080 And I think maybe at the time when I first wrote that letter, 215 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,720 I was sort of just having lots of feelings, but not a lot 216 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,640 necessarily a lot of scholarship around it. 217 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,440 So I don't know necessarily kind of how things have changed, but 218 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,680 I was appreciative of wanting to talk about it with with with the 219 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:31,200 two of you for sure. I think that there's still a lot 220 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,520 of hesitancy across design leadership across multiple 221 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,480 organizations. AIGA is certainly not that 222 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,360 unique in having that phenomena, but I also think that we can't 223 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,920 progress until we have more of this conversation out loud. 224 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,560 And it's my hope that perhaps in my understanding, my growing 225 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,040 understanding of my racial identity, I could be more of a 226 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,000 useful ally as opposed to like a, a person you, you have on 227 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,480 speed dial when you want to feel better. 228 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,640 Like I, I don't want to be someone's conscience. 229 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,360 I actually want to be helpful. And I think be helpful, I think 230 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,960 is a cool part of wanting to be a designer. 231 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,920 Right. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing 232 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,280 that. I think, you know, I have some 233 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,240 immediate responses and then love to hear if Julie has 234 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,080 anything as like a more, a newer person, a newer staff member at 235 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,440 AIGA. But yeah, I do remember your 236 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,320 article coming in at the time, like I said, I was not in a, in 237 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,320 a leadership position per SE. I was kind of publicly facing in 238 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,360 terms of content, but not in terms of like being in charge of 239 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,360 our our strategy at that level. And, and now I am. 240 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,880 So it has been helpful to kind of reflect on that a bit. 241 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,640 And then also thinking about our current political moment where 242 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,640 like things like DEI are like explicitly under attack from the 243 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,320 highest levels of government. And just maybe like thinking 244 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,400 about my own role at AIGA as like a curator essentially who 245 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,880 books guest for this podcast also help select guest speakers 246 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,040 at our conference coming up in LA this October. 247 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,520 One of the principles has just been opening things up more. 248 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,360 You know, we've been doing more open calls. 249 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,800 We're starting something new this year where we have 250 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,920 community based voting on some of the things we're doing for 251 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,840 our conference, in addition to having a IGA members who are 252 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:28,200 experts in their their domains in the industry and academia 253 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,760 also form a committee. But just having more input, 254 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,720 right? Because I feel like there has 255 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,840 been a history of AIGA being criticized for being kind of 256 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,720 elitist in this way or not being transparent in this way. 257 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,160 And then the second thing I'll say is that in addition to that, 258 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,240 we've also found that that's not enough, right? 259 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,520 That there's a, we don't have like official DEI policy or or 260 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,440 quotas or anything for our guests, but we just noticed 261 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:03,600 anecdotally that the folks who have agents or staff members who 262 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,320 actively pitch us tend to skew male and tend to skew white, 263 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,280 right? Which is just, it's also a a 264 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,880 result, I think of just demographics of leadership in 265 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,360 our industry. But it in terms of like, yeah, 266 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,480 it's like just if the number of people who like apply or pitch 267 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,720 to speak is already skewed in one way. 268 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,240 I think that's also kind of highlights the need for us to 269 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,360 like go out of our way and like actively either invite people to 270 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,320 pitch or just invite people to kind of compliment the views 271 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,600 that we're already getting because they're not necessarily 272 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,760 applying or pitching for these things. 273 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,680 So yeah, those are a couple of my immediate thoughts. 274 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,800 Just as a curator in my current position. 275 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,000 I don't know if Julia has anything to add to that. 276 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,240 Yeah. I, no, I think first I want to 277 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,160 thank George for the openness to come back and and participate in 278 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,240 this conversation. And I also want to acknowledge 279 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:08,400 that every time I have read or I have seen George in, in 280 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,040 conferences, I have always felt very inspired by your courage to 281 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,120 speak up your mind. And I think this letter that I 282 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,480 later on found out that you wrote also is very much in line 283 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,320 with your with, with everything that I know of you so far 284 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,840 publicly, right? So I think it's very much in 285 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,200 line. So I admire how you're able to 286 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,360 keep your principles and make sure that you speak up, even 287 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,240 though that might be, that might be there might be some negative 288 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,120 impacts for your work or your for social circles and so on. 289 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,040 So I do think that also the angry hour for optimists are 290 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,960 also a moment like this for us to talk about all this and learn 291 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,640 with each other and vent in a safe space. 292 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,000 So I appreciate also that a conversation like this is also 293 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,280 being expanded to different locations and invited other 294 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,760 folks to join. So yeah, I think that's, that's 295 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,040 my point. I appreciate you coming and 296 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,600 sharing your your point of view and perspective of that time, 297 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,360 but also of anything that has changed until now. 298 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,040 Well, thanks, Julia. Thanks for speaking to that. 299 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,920 And I also think maybe, Lee, Sean, to your point about the 300 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,120 role that you might be playing, I'm hopeful that the openness 301 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,280 that you're just that you're describing is felt across the 302 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,840 National board sending across all the different chapters. 303 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,880 And my sense is that all of the chapters were already there. 304 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,720 And perhaps we're waiting for National to catch up. 305 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,920 But also I wonder if maybe impressed that the the kind of 306 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,280 scrutiny that so much of people of color have experienced in 307 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,920 their professional careers, especially in design, can be 308 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,520 equally applied to the white male candidates who often apply. 309 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,680 Not because we're trying to be anti white, but rather I want to 310 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,080 make sure that they are really good. 311 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,280 I've seen unfortunately a number of examples of like less than 312 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,240 amazing speakers who perhaps one wonder like, why are you on this 313 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,359 stage? Why have we been conditioned to 314 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,000 hold you above all others? I just want to make sure that we 315 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,880 have some parity in that kind of like evaluation and scrutiny 316 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,560 that I know for a lot of people of color who've worked in design 317 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,960 for a long time often feel. So let's hope that's hope that 318 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,000 that's what we can start to see. And maybe to give a, maybe make 319 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,720 a little finer point, we've often used the phrase of a 320 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,960 studio that we're looking to be more porous as in allow more 321 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:44,360 ideas, more thought, more people to come in and out of the studio 322 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,560 more freely. And I'm hopeful that perhaps 323 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,320 AIG, becoming a little more porous, will benefit from that 324 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,160 level of idea exchange and and purple people exchange and 325 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,640 culture exchange. I really like that idea of more 326 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,240 porous. And I've also been thinking 327 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:09,080 about like the ways that leadership like, not in terms of 328 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,720 like leadership as an individual people, but leadership as like 329 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,720 a, you know, a quality of how like how somebody performs being 330 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:21,720 a leader is often gendered and racialized in different ways, 331 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,160 right? And like, you know, the, the 332 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,200 classic example is like, you know, when the male leader is 333 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,640 assertive, but when it's a woman, it like she's, you know, 334 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,040 she's the the B word And it's just like things like that. 335 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,520 And like that kind of porous leadership or more like kind of 336 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,960 democratic leadership just from some of the feedback that we 337 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,640 received from other people, Like it's not always legible what 338 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,080 that means, right? Or sometimes it's seen as like a 339 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,680 lack of leadership or a kind of abdication of leadership rather 340 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,120 than like a more maybe decentralized model or moving 341 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,360 away from that kind of charismatic single figure kind 342 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:56,840 of model. But it's just, it's just 343 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,640 different and you know, can be made legible in other ways or 344 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,000 requires effort to be made legible. 345 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,200 All right, so as we move forward, George, I know you, 346 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,480 you've built a solid career as a designer, educator and also Co 347 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,080 founder and Co executive director of Greater Good Studio 348 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,800 for almost 15 years now. I think I've seen many designers 349 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,200 thrive in their in their careers, but many of them have a 350 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,360 hard time transitioning from a designer to a business owner. 351 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,640 And I want to I wanted to hear from you, from a person that now 352 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,440 owns a business itself and also did this transition. 353 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,960 How was that process for you and what has been the the biggest 354 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,760 challenge so? Far thanks Julie for the 355 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,000 question. I think if I were to just answer 356 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,880 straight, it would appear as though I'm the only founder or 357 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,240 I'm the only one that helped do this. 358 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,280 That's completely not true. I'm certainly one of the two Co 359 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,880 founders, 2 Co owners and I'd say the vast majority of those 360 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,400 strategic decisions that my Co founder made early on have set 361 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,680 us up to be able to be in a place where there is stability. 362 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,640 And the the sort of sageness that you're asking me to look 363 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,000 back upon, I benefit from the decision she made and set up. 364 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,560 So Sarah Cantor, my Co founder, it's probably her question to be 365 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,720 answering, but I'd say certainly I can answer maybe like what has 366 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,200 been hard managing people has been impossibly hard because I 367 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,680 still think that I still have a hard time managing myself. 368 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,360 There is a massive gap in my leadership, I think in terms of 369 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,400 how to be an excellent manager, growing from my career primarily 370 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000 as an individual contributor, there were a number of steps 371 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,160 that I skipped. And it's very difficult to make 372 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,120 up for that time without having actual experience as a manager 373 00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:00,560 of people, of teams. And maybe that's the privilege 374 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,320 of being a Co founder, but I do, I do know that I stress my team 375 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,920 out and not having those skills. And it could be true that if you 376 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,760 are a designer working in a company where there was a 377 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,560 founder or owner that had a excellent track record as an 378 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,040 individual contributor and now suddenly you're in this position 379 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,800 of co-owner. It is interesting to maybe ask 380 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,360 what training have they had in the mechanics of running the 381 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,800 studio, in the mechanics of being a manager? 382 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,880 I think that may be true of other fields, but I know design 383 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:40,200 has this intoxicating narrative around expertise that perhaps 384 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,120 doesn't translate to leadership, even leadership Lashon, the one 385 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:48,000 that we was talking about earlier that perhaps just by 386 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,720 default you might people might be ascribing qualities that I 387 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,200 don't really have or I'm still struggling to work out. 388 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,360 So I'd say learning to manage the actual staff and the 389 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,680 employees that we have and give them career pathways, that's 390 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,480 really hard. Even just the idea of trying to 391 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,080 like design policies, holy cow. I think I've gotten pretty good 392 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:13,080 at maybe developing practices or even just say norms, but a 393 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,320 policy I, I had a had a very powerful conversation with my 394 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,960 director of operations who had to literally explain the 395 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,000 definition for policy. And I'm realizing how, how 396 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,720 little I knew about what that meant and realizing I don't know 397 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,560 what I'm talking about and that perhaps I need to give them a 398 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,040 lot more leeway about defining that because that's their role 399 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,080 and that's their expertise. So there's a lot of maturing 400 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,720 happening at the studio. I, I hope, hope to say. 401 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,320 And that we're probably in the, in like a big phase for the next 402 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,240 5 years as we kind of go from the first zero to 10 and then 10 403 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,520 to 20. This is like the teenage years, 404 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,000 as it were, because we're year 14 this summer of trying to work 405 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,520 out how to be a place that one can thrive in and not simply be 406 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,600 a like an interesting notable outlier as a studio very. 407 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,960 Cool. I remember attending a 408 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,640 conference sometimes some years back where you were the keynote 409 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,680 speaker. And one thing that stood out to 410 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,520 me and I got very inspired by it was the way you shared the 411 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,640 working principles of greater good studio. 412 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,000 And, and by that was how you had a principal saying no, just some 413 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,920 types of projects or some, some types of, of clients. 414 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,240 So I wanted to hear more from you. 415 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,400 How is that principle applied and how does it play in 416 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,480 practice? Thanks. 417 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,680 Thanks for the question. Yeah. 418 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,280 So mechanically speaking, every week we have something that we 419 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,960 call technically inside, we call it the BD charrette as in a 420 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,520 conversation and expensive conversation around business 421 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,360 development. And in order to prepare for that 422 00:23:54,360 --> 00:24:00,640 meeting, Sarah I, one of the two Co founders, share back our gut 423 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,680 check like rundown of what the latest business development 424 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,720 might be. Answering a series of questions 425 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,920 that prompts that we've developed over many years around 426 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,400 what is the nature of this request? 427 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,160 And what's the nature of the project that that this nonprofit 428 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,080 client is asking of us? And is there anything kind of 429 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,240 funky or weird or perhaps inappropriate? 430 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,640 And we kind of put those questions in in addition to 431 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,400 maybe regular questions like what's the budget? 432 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,040 What's the timeline? Because I think it can sometimes 433 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,480 get confusing to work out what are we really here to do? 434 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,240 It's not to say by default that we're suspicious of anyone. 435 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,000 I think we go in with good faith, but rather it's so easy, 436 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,960 especially for Sarah and I to be somewhat manipulated by people 437 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,120 who are dangling a project or budget or the opportunity, 438 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,160 particularly in the social sector, that we might not catch 439 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,120 all of the red flags that might be there. 440 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,320 So as a way of accounting for a team and kind of asking them, 441 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800 hey, can you give us your, your, your minds and strategic 442 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,800 thinking? Can you check this with us? 443 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,080 Your can you do your gut check without gut check and make sure 444 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,640 we don't end up inadvertently doing something erroneous or 445 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,280 worse harmful. So we're on I think version 5 446 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,520 now. I think it may be the 5th 447 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,880 edition of our gut check is probably overdue. 448 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,360 Another one we've done, we do about 35 a year. 449 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,560 So with our track record of what, almost 14 years, we've 450 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,240 done hundreds of them now. It's something I think that's 451 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,640 quite unique to our studio. I think we're quite serious 452 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,600 about it. I had a chat, this is funny. 453 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,160 I had a chat with this other leader of a design studio who I 454 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,480 don't think realized that this we were for real. 455 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,400 And I think they were bringing to what's an opportunity around. 456 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,840 I think it was around maybe energy, some sort of like energy 457 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,560 company. And once I realized, oh, this is 458 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,560 a you need design help with a partner from us, like us. 459 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,640 But really this is a business problem, not a social problem. 460 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,720 I had to explain like, that's not what we do. 461 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,000 I'm really sorry. Like I love you and I love this 462 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,800 opportunity, but that's just not something we do. 463 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,320 And I had to remind them like, you know, like the stuff you see 464 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,200 on the website, that's for real. Like there isn't like another, 465 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,120 like another Bank of portfolio. That's like a back of house, 466 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,240 front of house. That's all we do. 467 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,680 It's pretty, there's no, it's pretty shallow in that regard. 468 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,400 There isn't like two different, two different types of books 469 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,680 that we're trying to maintain. And I had to dawn on them as 470 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,080 like, oh, wait, that's it. As a yeah, that's all we do. 471 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,000 So, oh, we shouldn't be having this conversation. 472 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,920 And he, you know, he was, he was gracious about it, but I think 473 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,800 it can still be a surprise to other Co owners, sort of other 474 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:52,240 owners of businesses that we might not have another secret 475 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,720 stash of, of commercial clients somehow funding all our work at 476 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,760 this I'm. Not a fraud for a corporate 477 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,360 studio that's doing. There isn't like a we're not 478 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,440 confused, although again, This is why we bring this up. 479 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,480 Is that the risk of manipulation or I would even push it further, 480 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,760 say self deception is ever present. 481 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,320 I went through one of the hardest realizations last 482 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:23,160 probably about a year ago with this some lovely folks who have 483 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:30,680 an autonomous vehicle company. And I got so knotted in my head 484 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,480 around what our goals were. And because we were feeling 485 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,600 enormous amount of financial pressure at the studio at the 486 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,920 time. And I started realizing how much 487 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,720 I was convincing myself that there was merit beyond it being 488 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,880 a, a business problem. And after a lot of realizations 489 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,680 and thankfully some, some students that I was working 490 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,880 with, I kind of had a bit of a moment of, of realization and 491 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,560 realized, oh shit, I, I got to get out of this. 492 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,600 So I then sent the breakup e-mail, one of my one of my 493 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,680 finest and have felt better ever since. 494 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,240 Pivot the. Conversation to the theme of 495 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,560 this year's programming at AIG, both on the podcast and in our 496 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,000 upcoming conference in LA this October. 497 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,920 But we're exploring this intersection of design and 498 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,080 performance. And performance can take many 499 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,560 forms. And doing a podcast interview or 500 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,440 speaking on an AIG a conference stage as a form of performance. 501 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,120 But as designers, we're also performing when we're pitching a 502 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:32,160 client for a new project or facilitating a workshop on, you 503 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,640 know, a kick off workshop or a Co design workshop. 504 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,760 And we know that in your studio you do these collaborative 505 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,000 democratic activations and workshops and other ways of 506 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,200 working that are maybe different from what we were saying before, 507 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,960 the kind of like, you know, singular auteur kinds of 508 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,080 designing. And so, yeah. 509 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,120 Can you tell us more about this culture that you've been 510 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,560 cultivating a greater good studio, and then any sort of 511 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,000 open-ended reflections you might have on how you think about what 512 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,240 it is to perform as a designer, as a leader that's such a 513 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,200 difficult. And expensive question, Lee, 514 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,800 Sean, thank you for that. Yeah. 515 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,840 So I think the word performance can have so many different 516 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,920 connotations from high performance or things to have 517 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,040 like a horsepower. Yeah, sports analogy or things 518 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,440 that to do with excellence, things that feel like if you're 519 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880 in the National League, I don't know, whatever National League 520 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,600 you might want to pick. I'm not a sports person. 521 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,120 Yeah, neither am I. So I have. 522 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,600 No idea. Like you and I maybe? 523 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,160 Not the right people to ask this question, but but if you want 524 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,280 like top performer, yeah. There's such. 525 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,520 AI ended up with. A lot of images. 526 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:49,680 Of aggressiveness and crushing goals and dominance that I I 527 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,520 don't have a lot to relate to. Yeah, unfortunately, I also have 528 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,000 a another connotation. Suddenly, because we worked in 529 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,040 the social sector for so long, that performance can feel like 530 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,320 it's insincere or that it's somehow fake. 531 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:12,600 Or with a lot of folks who have expressed allyship to groups who 532 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,560 have been marginalized, there could be a performative aspect 533 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,840 of I'm your ally as long as it doesn't really have to cost me 534 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,760 to change anything while it cost me in any way. 535 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,520 So I wonder if if if in this context what? 536 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,160 We're talking about here is. How does 1 be consistent? 537 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,600 How does one think about leadership in a way that is 538 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,480 maybe alternative to what we've been addition to think about? 539 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,600 And how does performance mean? How? 540 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:48,640 Why am I going to show up in a way that feels as though outside 541 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,520 of this moment in time? Will it stand up to become some 542 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,720 kind of scrutiny many years later? 543 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,520 So I think for our studio, one of the one of the tough parts is 544 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240 balancing wanting to be a for profit business, which we've 545 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,360 always been, but also do in a way that doesn't corrupt 546 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,440 ourselves or our social mission, which we have as a as a studio. 547 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,640 There are many ways that we could have designed a studio to 548 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,560 make more money to have nothing to do with the work that we do 549 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,080 at all. And I think in doing so, we will 550 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,560 simply have a business that justifies its own existence that 551 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,760 occasionally does social sector work. 552 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,080 And I think if that was the case, maybe more akin to what 553 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,880 my, my, the colleague I was talking to, my my, the Pi was 554 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,280 talking to, maybe what they were suspecting we did, I think we 555 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,040 would. Qualify this. 556 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,600 As a as a performance, we would be maintaining this sort of like 557 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,520 image of what we do. But I think what's interesting 558 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,440 is to say, can we be clear minded about what the purpose of 559 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,320 this business is for? And for us, it is about being 560 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,280 affordable to a group of people who don't typically have access 561 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,120 to design studios or services, all in the purpose of all social 562 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,320 change. So if there is a performance, 563 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,760 I'd be just asking what are we doing with this performance for? 564 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,920 Is it to get to this top of some type of leaderboard? 565 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,400 OK. I don't know why is that to be 566 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880 the best at something. I mean there is merit in that I 567 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,840 guess, but is that it like? You know, like it. 568 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,960 Could be that if there's a trophy or something that you 569 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,320 hold aloft that has meaning maybe. 570 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,000 But I wonder if perhaps there are larger goals or larger 571 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,960 remits that the design studio could have. 572 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,520 That is a beyond winning awards or winning recognition. 573 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,960 And it makes me wonder, who were we really serving? 574 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,520 For us, our clients are a means to get to impact. 575 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,880 We love our clients. Which is why we have to be so 576 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:56,760 selective. About them. 577 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,640 So if we get, if we end up working for a client whose goals 578 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,440 are so completely different than what we had originally set out, 579 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,960 I think it would have, we'd be really annoying to work with and 580 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,400 it'd be really obvious that we were sort of like the wrong 581 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,800 people. So I think it's clear for us to 582 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,280 be able to think about like our clients being a good match or 583 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,560 that we might be a good match for some and we'd be a terrible 584 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,520 match for others. So I want to be suddenly less 585 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,840 judgy around good studios, bad studios, good clients, bad 586 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,800 clients and about how well of a well suited the compatibility 587 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,520 might be. So we, we want to be the people 588 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,560 you call when you have a social mission. 589 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,000 That's it. And if that's our performance 590 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,080 that we get rated on, so be it. But I want to be clear that 591 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,040 that's kind of what we're trying to judge ourselves about maybe 592 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,360 and don't get confused by being quoted with the number one 593 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,280 design studio in the world. I I don't know what you're 594 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,480 judging that against. I've worked in places who have 595 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,200 said that, and I have wondered thinking who who made the 596 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,840 ranking? Was it you? 597 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,000 Yeah, it's like those college. Rankings, right? 598 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,800 It's like, what are the best universities, you know, besides 599 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,960 Harvard, right? At Stanford, it's like it's kind 600 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080 of the same every year, but they just kind of like switch chairs 601 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,320 and yeah, yeah, and, and I can't tell. 602 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,679 Who it's it for? So who are we serving? 603 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,800 Who is our clients or does it expose perhaps that what the 604 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,280 designs to do really is is it's a profit center that happens to 605 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:33,080 use design if that's it, can we just say that out loud right 606 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,719 versus we we're trying to have impact and the reality is that 607 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,480 Sarah and I don't have personal. Wealth we. 608 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,960 Don't have access to wealth. We don't. 609 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,280 We don't. We weren't born into into the 610 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,159 means that might have us have impact through foundation work 611 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:49,719 or other types of like philanthropy. 612 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,639 We also weren't trained in medicine. 613 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,600 So that's out of the picture. All we have is designed just the 614 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,080 two of us. We're like limited by that. 615 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,760 So we want to take what we have been trained in and like arm 616 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,040 wrestle it into into shape into the direction we want because 617 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,520 that's all we know. That's probably why we've had 618 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,080 this false profit studio because we didn't know how to start a 619 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,240 non profit. Like all we did was just take 620 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,840 what we've had that we knew about and that let's redirect it 621 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,720 to a different purpose. And I think that that has meant 622 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,120 that we now have certain baggage that comes with it. 623 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,640 And also, I think there's an opportunity because we're trying 624 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,000 to do something new. But I think you have to be 625 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,520 really clear minded. Like, what is this really for? 626 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,920 And I think it's not. It's not. 627 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,200 I don't mind if you just say it's just to make a shit ton of 628 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,840 money. I just want you to say that out 629 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,960 loud and stop pretending it's about something else. 630 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,240 Yeah. And I think that connects to a. 631 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,080 Previous answer you had where you were talking about like you 632 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,960 didn't have a separate front stage and backstage kind of 633 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,200 game, right? And it's like just as you were 634 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,240 saying, like what's on your website for greater good studio 635 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,120 is actually what you do or like trying to match get the right 636 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,920 fit with your clients also avoids the thing that I've seen, 637 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,320 you know, with other design studios where it's like you put 638 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,120 on the dog and pony show for your clients and then as soon as 639 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,560 they leave the room, right, you're talking shit about them. 640 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,080 And there's this whole kind of like, you know, doing it for 641 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,840 money, but you kind of secretly hate your clients kind of thing, 642 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,840 which like you're kind of saying that like the real authenticity 643 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,480 here of this is like, yeah, trying to make that front stage 644 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,000 backstage like as aligned as possible, right? 645 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,800 Yeah, I think that that actually. 646 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,480 The amount of workarounds you have as a as a studio owner to 647 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,080 make every all the self deception level out could all be 648 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,920 replaced if you just figured out what are you doing this for. 649 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,280 That alignment internally has all these downstream benefits 650 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,440 because you no longer pretend to find the kinds you want. 651 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,960 You just have the clients that only want to work with you. 652 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,960 You have great clarity over what the work is for, which then has 653 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,520 resonance around who you attract. 654 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,280 And actually going back to the very beginning, the idea of the 655 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,960 pissed off optimist and wanting to. 656 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,360 Say that loud. Versus sort of like cryptically 657 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,960 on our website was to say, I think those people exist and 658 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,920 there's enough of them not only to, you know, work with as a 659 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,400 design studio, but there's enough of us to actually cause 660 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,520 real social change in the world. So we wanted to be explicit and 661 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,640 not opaque about who we're looking for because we think the 662 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,080 more clear we can be, the less time we waste for them or for us 663 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,000 around misregistering what the work is about. 664 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,320 I'm curious to hear from. You, if there is any type of 665 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,680 design rule or principle that you love to break or that you 666 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,760 clearly disagree with, well, that's so hard for me, Julia. 667 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,320 Because I I feel like I spent so much of my time coming up 668 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,840 desperately. Hoping no one will. 669 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,800 Notice that I'm not I'm not good at this or real at this. 670 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,120 That activates so much of my imposter syndrome pretty 671 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,800 hardcore. So the safety and the comfort 672 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,680 that comes from adhering to those rules is hard to break. 673 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:09,440 And then and yet what has been going alongside my professional 674 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,120 journey is this journey around my racial identity and how much 675 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,760 that understanding, what was conditioned in me to mean, what 676 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,120 excellent was, what the rules were, what professional looks 677 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,560 like meant that perhaps in my own understanding of who I am, I 678 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,840 might not be able to ever perform those adhere to those 679 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,600 rules. And I think my, my sense for a 680 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,000 long time was, well, then I'm never going to be quite good 681 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,920 enough. And I'm, I'm kind of trying to 682 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,000 let go of some of the stringentness around those rules 683 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,720 and realize, yes. There is merit. 684 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,920 To a degree. And yet how much of that rule 685 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,400 acted as an inadvertent gatekeeper? 686 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,280 Was it about perhaps maintaining the status quo of a very elite, 687 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,320 narrow small group as opposed to truly understanding what 688 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,880 excellence might be, which might be in truth in expression, truth 689 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,040 in who people are, and then having that expressed visually, 690 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,400 tangibly in some way so? I'm realizing that I'm. 691 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,440 Now, in a place where underneath those rules of what excellence 692 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,400 might be, there might be other rules that we don't hear as much 693 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,880 about, which is just try to be as true to yourself as possible. 694 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,360 And other people would will recognize that that feels very 695 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:40,200 different than how how tightly you can your type or how on. 696 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,040 Trend your typeface. Might be or how much your color 697 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:50,120 gradients are of the moment. It's been really hard to not get 698 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,760 too distracted by trend and the trends that I grew up on. 699 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,480 I have a certain kind of nostalgia for which makes them 700 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,560 very important to me. You know, the, the camp coming 701 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,080 up in the 90s meant that there was a lot of particular ways of 702 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,840 doing things for, you know, modernist views that I've, I'm 703 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,280 not quite at the point where I'm now making everything in, in 704 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,360 Comic Sans, but I'm getting there. 705 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,480 I'm getting there where I don't know if I give a shit anymore 706 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,440 about half the things that I used to think were that 707 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,200 important. So, OK, so maybe try to give you 708 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,720 a real example. I I am no longer concerned about 709 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:29,320 typos in a cover letter. Or in an application or in in 710 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,320 people who apply. I I would love to see your work. 711 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,320 I'd love to see your thinking, but some of the things I used to 712 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,680 worry about I've I've tried to let go of. 713 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,040 That's great. That's a good. 714 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,560 Example. I'm going to make sure we asked. 715 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,240 You a question about your teaching. 716 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,840 You had alluded to this before about like how some students 717 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,640 helped you rethink some of the professional work you were 718 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,400 doing. Can you reflect as an educator 719 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:02,240 on how you think design programs should focus on, Yeah, how, how 720 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:04,480 do they prepare students to tackle the kind of social 721 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,520 challenges and kind of social good design that you do now? 722 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,680 Thanks so much, Lisa. For for asking that I've been 723 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,520 very lucky in that I found a new education institution at 724 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,160 Northwestern. I used to teach at the school at 725 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,840 the Art Institute of Chicago, who I continue to owe a big debt 726 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,840 to because they took a risk on me because I never got a 727 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,920 master's degree. And it's not easy to get a 728 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,880 teaching job without that. So I know that they, they, they 729 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,040 stuck the neck out. But at Northwestern, what's 730 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,760 interesting is that they were still trying to what wonder, 731 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,040 like what is the future of their master's program going to look 732 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,960 like? And with new leadership at at 733 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,120 the Engineering design Innovation program, they invited 734 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,600 me to create a new class called Ethics and Identity in Design. 735 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:58,640 And that class has been really transformative for me in that I 736 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,560 didn't know if anybody cared about these topics. 737 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,200 And I don't know if I knew I had enough to teach about this 738 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,800 topic. So that that was that's a whole 739 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,960 other thing. But in teaching it and actually 740 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,920 more recently working with with Amy who runs a program, placing 741 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,840 that class in a cornerstone moment during the first quarter 742 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,600 of the two year program means that you can no longer avoid it. 743 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,080 It used to be this thing where the class was an elective was 744 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,120 Now it is a foundational part It isn't. 745 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,400 I don't know what the opposite. It's a required yet required 746 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,160 class. And that just means that we had 747 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,160 to make some choices about what can no longer be in that place 748 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,120 when something is now required. So I took it as a real 749 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:47,240 commitment to center an ethical stance and to center humans and 750 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:52,200 to center working with a real critical view as to how and why 751 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,680 we do the work. Not just that we can. 752 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,280 And we do it with a certain level of execution or of 753 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,440 fidelity. Those other those other reasons 754 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:08,160 seem to be pretty often forgotten or added as a bonus 755 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,480 with primacy around execution and resolution. 756 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,760 Whereas now we might be able to say how and why we do things 757 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,360 might be just as important as the outcomes themselves. 758 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,480 And balancing those two, I think is always going to be hard. 759 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,040 But in a program like this, I feel like they've they've taken 760 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,800 a stance to say we think it's important enough that we that we 761 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,520 place it front and center. Very cool. 762 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,800 Yeah. Thanks, Nishan. 763 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,840 Yeah. I was going to maybe say one 764 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,360 more thing. In that maybe about a couple of 765 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,120 years after the AIJ letter, I came to a real crossroads about 766 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,560 whether or not I should do something that I thought was 767 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,440 going to be kind of politically sort of like risky for my 768 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,120 career. And that was specifically around 769 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,560 the letter called surviving IDEO. 770 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,440 And I don't know how much of the students who I was working with 771 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,480 at the time even realize how I was very, very stuck between two 772 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,680 parts of whether to pursue the letter or not. 773 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,240 And this is like, I'm like sitting over there looking at 774 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:13,680 these, this first batch of students final grades, reading 775 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,040 their essays and realizing that I've been hopping on about how 776 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,520 you have to try to make a you'll, you'll find yourself 777 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,680 often a fork in the road and have to decide which way you 778 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,960 want to go. And I'm realizing I can never 779 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,000 teach this class again if I don't take the quote UN quote 780 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,440 right choice or right for me, even if the right one might be 781 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:37,160 the scariest or the hardest. So that class so clearly 782 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,880 impacted whether or not I should do something that I feel like I 783 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,440 owe it in in a very metal way, owe that Class A lot because I 784 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,720 think it's shaped actually where my career is now practicing some 785 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,040 of the things that we've talked about all this, this, this whole 786 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,400 interview. Yeah. 787 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,240 Yeah, there's that sort of like teaching by example, right? 788 00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:00,400 There's like the things that you do that are in your syllabus. 789 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,000 And then there's the things that you do, like in your the way 790 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,640 that you show up in your professional life and in your 791 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,080 kind of personal political commitments in that sense. 792 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,800 And like how that is an example for students? 793 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,120 Yeah, I mean, I think what's so hard? 794 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,240 About it is that it's so much easier to simply tell people 795 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:23,440 what to do and then walk away, because who's going to call me 796 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:24,120 out on this? Like. 797 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,240 It's not that often that I'm going to get checked, so I could 798 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,040 get away with that for a long time. 799 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,320 It's just it think it becomes very it will gnaw on you. 800 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,080 When you don't, maybe. Follow through and it's yeah, I, 801 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,280 I remember thinking through several moments in my career 802 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:48,440 that that sense of gnoring self doubt or the creepingness of 803 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,800 self deception is a feeling I'm trying to not lose touch with. 804 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,000 But I'm. I'm older than I was, obviously. 805 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,080 I'm like almost 50 now and I'm just trying to still keep in 806 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,280 touch with that feeling of am I lying to myself about this? 807 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,120 I sometimes can't tell. And I worry that it will be a 808 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,760 long time before I, I I can't tell I've lost it because it 809 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:10,760 would have happened some time ago. 810 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,480 And I've, you know, already moved on. 811 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:15,360 Totally. Yeah. 812 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,960 I feel like we could do a whole episode on the the surviving IDO 813 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,480 letter that you bravely signed on to. 814 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,800 But but just in general, like about labor conditions in, you 815 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,240 know, design studios and agencies, not even like singling 816 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,680 out a, you know, idea or, or that, you know, but these are 817 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,400 things that are unfortunately pervasive in our industry and 818 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960 things that maybe I think needs to be talked about more 819 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,600 certainly with students and with some other folks in terms of, 820 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,360 yeah, just what to expect on on the job, right. 821 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,000 And how you you deal with it. And like, not like denormalizing 822 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,120 some of these toxic workplace things as well. 823 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,640 George, do you have? Any type of book or a movie or 824 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,000 show or any type of media that you would recommend to our 825 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,320 listeners? Something that has inspired you 826 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,480 lately? Yeah, so I. 827 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,440 Listened on on book on tapers where I listened on my audio 828 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:15,400 book of a book called Poverty by America by Desmond. 829 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,120 Shoot, I have to remember his last name. 830 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,400 Yeah, I forgot his last name now. 831 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,200 It was amazing. It does such a thorough job of 832 00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:29,720 untangling the harmful narratives of what about what 833 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:35,760 makes people poor and keeps them poor and what helps people who 834 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,960 are not temporarily poor less likely to slip and forward down. 835 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,320 That that that slippery slope towards poverty and the ways in 836 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,640 which language to describe a government handout is exclusive 837 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,120 to one group and not the other. And that tax breaks are seen as 838 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,160 a while you all must be smart enough to figure that out versus 839 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,240 hey, that is another government handout. 840 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:06,320 So the the the general premises, can we please tax those who need 841 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,400 to be taxed? And for those who need to be 842 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,120 taxed, can you please do your part and actually pay your 843 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,480 share? And your avoidance shouldn't be 844 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:23,440 seen and viewed as a a neat way of of an. 845 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,400 Indication. How smart. 846 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,760 You are but actually get relabeled as your avoidance of 847 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,320 your social responsibility. So that book is has nothing to 848 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,960 do with design in any formal sense. 849 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,120 But if you think about how rules tend to indicate behavior and 850 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,600 that designing systems through seizure rules to me sounds a lot 851 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,320 like design. So if we're designing societies 852 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,320 and designing sense anyhow, the most wealthy in this country act 853 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,960 and behave. To me, that feels like it's 854 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,320 something that is open for design because people have 855 00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,120 already applied a lot of intent behind those rules and it's 856 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,160 working exactly as planned. So yeah, I definitely think it's 857 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,400 been designed that way. But you have to, you have to 858 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,400 kind of like wrap your head around it and go, oh, right. 859 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,440 Well, we've designed this system to work very efficiently towards 860 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,560 growing the wealth of a very small number and to extract this 861 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,560 much value out of everybody else. 862 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,920 Shoot, I, I really wish maybe Lee, Sean, you can help me 863 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,360 figure out the name of that. We'll look this up and we'll. 864 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,040 Put it in the show notes of folks. 865 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,840 But yeah, like, yeah, this point too, right. 866 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,480 Like on systems, I think designers, it behooves us to 867 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,800 understand like the larger economic and political systems 868 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,080 we're doing work in, even if, like a book that you're 869 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,120 suggesting, George, is not like directly related to the craft of 870 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:42,800 design. Maybe. 871 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,680 But yeah, it's like, what are we doing it? 872 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,680 It reminds me of that meme that was going around of like things 873 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,560 that are classy if you're rich, but like trashy if you're poor. 874 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,560 And one of them is like getting money from the government or 875 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,560 like speaking multiple languages, right? 876 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,680 All of these things where it's like it's literally the same 877 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,040 thing, but it's just coded in such different ways based on 878 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,080 somebody's socio economic status. 879 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:03,800 Yeah. And I think that. 880 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,320 Conditioning that comes with that coding means that we view 881 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,840 in very stark terms who should be given the benefit of the 882 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,200 doubt or who should be deemed unworthy. 883 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,920 You know, similarly along those lines, I feel like I've been 884 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,400 doing a little volunteering with this group called the Chicago 885 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,560 Community Jail Support that's here in Chicago that does a lot 886 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,920 of work with folks who are leaving, who get put back out on 887 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,440 the street from Cook County Jail. 888 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,160 And the number of stories I think that people make up about 889 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:41,920 people being detained and then put back out, I think it's not 890 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:47,000 helping anyone. And the utterly, like, inhumane 891 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,480 way in which Cook County does that right now makes you start 892 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,240 to question, why is it happening this way? 893 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,480 Is it because you don't think they're of them as real humans? 894 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,160 Probably. So, yeah, there's a lot of 895 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:07,120 powerful narratives, both mostly harmful actually, that I think 896 00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:08,960 dictate a lot of how we see the world. 897 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,120 And I think our job as a designers could be to reshape 898 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,840 what those narratives are. Thank you for that suggestion. 899 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,000 Again, we'll post those links and we'll post links to your 900 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,520 site, Greater Good Studio site as well, but we'd like to just 901 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,240 as a final thing so folks can hear it and see you say that. 902 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,440 Could you just do a call to action to wrap us up in terms of 903 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,800 where folks can find you and your work if they want to follow 904 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,640 up with this episode? Thanks very much. 905 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:33,960 Yeah, please. Take a look at 906 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,000 greatergoodstudio.com Our website has a lot of our latest 907 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,440 work and a lot of reasons as to why we exist. 908 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,920 We have some social channels that you can also track US on 909 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,440 from LinkedIn to some others. And yeah, I would say, you know, 910 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,800 Sunny, while I think we're great, there's a lot of local 911 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,680 nonprofits that are in your area that I think really deserve your 912 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,640 design attention, whether it's from just volunteering through 913 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,080 to thinking about them as a strategic partner. 914 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,240 I think all those organizations would really benefit from having 915 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,800 a design thinker or someone who thinks about design give them an 916 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,880 ask and say, hey, have we thought about our programs a 917 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,080 little differently? So yeah, let's, let's try to 918 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,280 work locally as much as we can. Wonderful. 919 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,520 Yeah, thanks for. That advice and for those 920 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,920 resources, George A thank you for joining us thank you the 921 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,360 audience for listening and or watching if you're seeing this 922 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,360 on YouTube and we'll see you in another episode of the AIG 923 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,800 Design podcast thanks so much for having. 924 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:33,320 Me folks.