Welcome to Big EARS conversations about music.
I'm your host, Sarah Gilletti. Today we're returning to the
world of saxophonist, composer and producer Josh Johnson.
This is the second time this season you're hearing from Josh
on the podcast. Josh is everywhere in the
current music scene. He's producing Flea and Michelle
and Deyocello. He's releasing his own music and
music with collaborators on labels like Northern Spy,
International Anthem and Blue Note.
At Big Ears, he's part of a three night residency with the
LA collective FML. Today we hear from Josh in
conversation with festival founder Ashley Capps, who
invited Johnson to curate. Artists who, in Josh's words,
are exceeding the frame. Artists who refuse to be
categorized or contained. Josh and Ashley discussed their
respective visions for curation and discussed the amazing slate
of artists Johnson has curated this year.
Let's listen in. How you been?
What are you working on now? Anything you can tell us about?
In the process of working on my next solo record and FML always
has some things cooking. That's a pretty constant.
A new Jeff Parker ETA Quartet record.
Coming by soon. Yeah, quite a few different
things. Just trying to stay active and
inspired and yeah, just keep making things.
For whatever reason, I've always been attracted to various
artists for many different reasons, but always wanting to
know where that music came from, what its influences were, how it
came to be, following those tangents, to see where they
lead. And so in that sense, when I
think of curation of Big Ears itself, I, I, people often ask
me, what would you not put in, but who would you not book?
And of course there are artists that I would not book, but I
don't know that there's any music that I would not book.
It's a, it's a matter of context really.
You know who the artist is and what they're doing and that that
context and how it came to be is something that really inspires
me as a listener. Yeah, I think for me, perhaps
similarly, it feels like a as I was putting this together and
thinking about the role, it does feel very connected to just the
way I listen and grew up listening to music.
I feel you on that. Like the context being so
important, right? The way that it's the piece of
an artist is contextualized. I also really liked what you
said about, yeah, the people who are like, and I'm on this
tangent and I want to take it to its conclusion and see what
happens there on the margin. Like what happens?
Like, we know where the edge is. But like when I keep going past
it, what happens when people are really committed to finding that
out? Because I think also that, like,
it pushes all of us. And often that results in
something that's just incredibly unique and compelling.
But yeah, I think about the narrative, kind of a story that
can be told through curation and kind of imagining with something
that you were talking about of like someone having the
experience of being at the festival.
And even if they don't experience like the entire
thing. But there are these I want to
provide like a bunch of different doorways for people to
like be able to experience, but also like kind of imagine their
own like rich, layered, multifaceted experience through
all of this music. And I think there are
connections there to be drawn if that connects with someone's own
experience in the room hearing this music, you know?
But I do feel it to be important to like, not try to control that
overly dictate. Because I think part of what for
me, what I look for in this music is I'm often drawn to
things that don't fully dictate an experience, but just
encourage me to imagine and feel deeply and have my own.
Yes, I think that it's interesting.
It's not all about connection. Sometimes it's about contrast or
often find myself using food analogies because I I think
great cuisine with everything that could be done with spices
and contrasts and, and how different parts of the meal can
work together. And you know, and in contrast
with one another are also part of the musical experience.
In a sense, like going to a great restaurant, you don't
order everything on the menu and knowing it's there is also part
of the experience of being there as well.
I think that's amazing. And I think about it even
outside of the festival context, there's so many, there's so much
music or art that I've experienced that I stumbled on
or somebody mention, you know, like, have you checked this out,
you know? Or like, I think about like
going to a show where I was like, yeah, I want to see this
artist. I'll get there a little early.
And the person who opens or something like that, I'm like, I
didn't know that. I needed to hear that, you know,
and you know, to your credit, like I, I think that those who
have attended before, there's also like a trust in, in both.
If you arrive as a person who's like, I know exactly what I see,
I'm going to do this, this and this, you know, But I think
there's a lot of people who come with that trust that like, I
actually, I might have the best experience or the most like
enriching experience if I don't have everything, everything
planned. Also because I trust that, like
there are many doors, right? And what I already know is not
the extent of what will like, move me or inspire me.
Courage is a tired mom milk crate and a cardboard sign
trying to find a story for a daughter.
This is how the world exists. Let me spin it for you, kid, in
a way that's easier to swallow. Thank you for saying that.
I think one of the things that I, I think about for my own
cultural development is all of the many people and things that
that were influences without really sitting there intending
to be influences. And bookstores owned by people
who loved books and record stores owned by people who loved
records. That became kind of a, a center
where you went there not only to buy the new record that had just
come out, but because you're going to learn from other people
that have gathered there about new things that you might be
interested in. And I, I think that's the,
that's what I call the human curatorial component as opposed
to the algorithmic human, the algorithmic snake eating its
tail methodology that I think is prevalent right now.
Yeah, it's, it's felt. Thank you.
That means a lot to hear.
Cool. I'm really excited about your
curation at the festival. I thought here with the festival
now just a couple of weeks away, it would be really nice to
highlight the artist that you've chosen and talk a little bit
about why you chose them. When I ask you to do this.
And I'm, I'm so grateful that you said yes because I was
looking to be pushed a little bit outside my the realm of what
I already know. You know, you have your finger
in so many different musical worlds.
I was really eager to see what you would come up with.
It's been very exciting for me to get to know them and and
listen to their music. When I ask you to do this, what
was just right at the top of your mind and said we've got to
do this? I think I sat with it for a
minute and thought about both people who whose work I've been
inspired or encouraged by and I thought about also kind of
generations of that. I thought of people who are like
ushering in something new. And, and one of the first people
that I thought of that just sort of heard some singles from this
record, but was Cleo Reed Yes, and it isn't It was the name I
had I had been hearing for a while, but for whatever reason,
I didn't make my way to the music until around the time that
we started having this conversation.
Just immediately capturing my attention and my and I take
capturing my attention, but also exciting my imagination.
You know, I, I actually, you know, I kind of thought about
also the the experience that I've had playing at and
attending big years. And like, I can't speak
specifically to how you talk about your vision, but I
experience it as there's this intersection of all these
different creative musics and traditions, but also pushing
things forward and all of that living coexisting and sort of
informing how everyone's performing, but also like how
people are relating to each other.
That feeling is in Cleo's record to me of it's exploring the
intersection of all this different music.
I feel like both the conjures like the South, but also it's
undeniably like New York and DC to me.
There's a phrase that that has been in my mind that I guided me
through this curation. And I feel this way about big
ears, but like the the sort of artists who are like exceeding
the frame, artists who refuse to be contained.
And yeah, so Cleo's Cleo came to mind first.
Their work just like really knocked me out.
They're definitely exceeding the frame.
Yeah. And boldly and fearlessly, too.
It's a it's, it's so infectious to hear their music.
Yeah. Do you recall?
The track that Do you recall? The track that really just made
you want to hear more. The first one that I heard, I
think was I've been out here hustling.
I've. Been out here hustling?
Three or four part harmony and there's like a joy to that
sound. I think I was captured by how
there's so many kind of like emotions living side by side.
I hear like joy, I hear rage, I hear like humor, I hear
tenderness. But all these things are being
conveyed within the same piece of music in a way that I think
really just was really engaging to me.
We just sell our image. That album, that might be my
discovery of the year. Josh, I, I have, you know, when
you first brought them to my attention, I couldn't quit
playing it. It was just completely
captivating on so many different levels.
And it's going to be a thrill to have them here.
Speaking of from my perspective, new artists that I've just
discovered, although I'm I've also discovered that they're
part of music royalty, so to speak.
Yeah, Quran is someone who I've always just admired their
artistry. She put out this record, I
guess, earlier this year called Pulse.
It's allowing all the influences to to come through and kind of
asking the question of like what's created when you don't
put these limitations on what you think you're supposed to
make or what fits into genre. And in her music, I really hear
like obviously a lot of like jazz, a lot of let's say like
cosmic or spiritual jazz. There's like sort of this like
an ambient soundscape point of reference to the parts of it
that feel very psychedelic to me.
There's a freedom in it that feels like so improvisational to
me. I've seen them perform a couple
times live as well. There's a freedom that's
embodied that I hear on the record too.
But it's kind of like even playing with form and like I
hear improvisation in her music. On a form level, she's just
somebody who's I'm like, really excited to see what she
continues to make. You know, what strikes me about
both Cleo and Quran is they bring in this extraordinary
range of influences, but it's totally seamless.
Nothing about it feels like, OK, a little bit of this now, a
little bit of that. It flows completely organically
and naturally, you know, within the same song from track to
track. It's the the breadth and depth
is just, it's extraordinary. It feels effortless.
Yeah, in the most beautiful way. I feel like both of them are
really like speaking, you know, speaking through their through
their work. You know, there's a directness
and yeah, just embody it. Is is what keeps coming to mind.
Speaking of ambient, electronic soundtrack or soundscapes, I
think you said one of the artists that you chose who I
thought I had a little pigeon holed was Will Will Graff.
He's another one that just completely full of surprise.
It's funny, we hadn't met, We've met recently, but just somebody
who I've sort of admired from afar and, and mostly heard him.
I mostly heard him in the context of other people's music.
To me, he's really got a like Sonic point of view and there's
always unique texture, There's always like unique tone.
And I think I first kind of knew him as, yeah, sort of like
affected guitar in a number of different settings and, and like
pushing that and finding new things and like in conversation
with a lot of musicians that inspire me.
But earlier, I guess this year, the end of last year, he he
released these two albums Compositions for guitar, Volume
1 and Volume 2. And I was really just blown away
by man, just the he crafts these really like, they're like simple
but also quite intricate, just like guitar pieces that often
feel like etudes. But they're very, to me, they're
very like, they're very much like distinct scenes.
You know, some of them are very haunting.
They're very like. They're like miniatures.
Yeah, they are these like miniatures that that create a
lot like visual imagery for me. I think he's really like a
master of the instrument, just like tone and touch.
There's it's, I think it's like so difficult to release a solo
album on an instrument. It takes a lot of courage and to
like for it to have the depth that his does on the
compositional level. But also just like talk about
like touch and time and tone. Like that to me is like really
virtuosity. Music One group on this list
that I knew because I bought their first album back 30 years
ago, almost 30 years ago, is, you know, Robin Chad's Chicago
underground duo. They were in.
The front of my mind too, because they they were, they put
out a new record or just about to as we started our
conversation. But yeah, to the point of people
who have been in that tradition of exceeding the frame and like
really combining and synthesizing a lot of different
things that that people may see or have seen as like disparate
influence. And on a more personal tip for
me, like I, I grew up about an hour from Chicago and as a young
person trying to find my way and find music that spoke to me.
I think I was probably in high school when I stumbled on a lot
of the different, like Chicago underground recordings, the duo
of the quartet. And I can't say that I fully
understood it at that time, but I know that it spoke to me.
I know for me I was like, I have all these different interests,
don't really know how they live together.
The question I'm still trying to answer, but like, people like
Chad and Rob have been seeking to answer those questions far
longer than I have and have left behind a beautiful body of work
to to check out and live with and be inspired by.
And yeah, they're just, you know, like an institution to me.
Yes, indeed. I'm so psyched that they're
coming. And you know, we have Rob's also
doing a visual art exhibition this year.
So, so he's his, his visual art is going to be on display at the
at the university's downtown Gallery.
They're right there on K St. So.
That's incredible. I don't.
Know that kind of emerged from other conversations, but it
wouldn't have happened if if the duo wasn't coming.
So while we're in Chicago, we should talk about Marquis.
Yes, my guy. Marquis Hill.
I've probably known Marquis since I was 18, and so many of
the things that are true about him, I could say we're true then
too. And and to me, he's always had
this just like a resting sound. Yeah, it's it's it's unmatched
to me. And I remember hearing about him
before we'd ever met and me and a couple friends sitting and
listening to his bootlegs and be like, that's that's got to be a
flugelhorn, right? That's that cannot.
Who has a trumpet sound like that?
That's just so like full and rich and warm.
But Marquis, I think is is like one of our great trumpet
players. It brought me great joy a number
of years ago, I guess almost 10 years ago at this point, when
he, I think through winning the Thelonious Monk trumpet
competition, just became more widely recognized.
I think that people in Chicago have always been like Marquis
Guy. But I think outside of Chicago,
a lot of people just weren't aware of his playing and his
writing. And yeah, to me, I'm inspired by
him and I, not just the playing and the writing, but I also
think that he's always pushing. He's pretty much a record a year
person and he's always trying to push himself in a new territory.
I see him as as fearless in just like reaching for what's next
and trying to push himself to grow and expand.
Feels like a great oversight that we're finally rectifying,
so thank you. I guess we might as well stay in
Chicago and talk about one of the groups that I had never
heard of until you brought them to our attention, and that would
be twin talk. Twin talk.
Yes, a trio who folks I, I have known for a very long time, I
really love seeing and hearing the results of like long term
collaborations. As much as I enjoy like the
freshness and newness of like new collaborations.
I think there's just like the potential for such depth and
over time, like an ease in communication.
And to me, like, that trio has been working for at least 10
years, maybe close to 15 at this point.
And the way they play together is just so exciting to me
because it, it, it's like, yeah, I, I, I often describe it as
like telepathic kind of level communication.
It's so wonderfully both fresh and in the pocket.
Yeah, But there's something, there's just, there's definitely
something in there sound that is timeless.
And that I think only comes with time of playing together.
You can just hear it. Very mature.
Like, I think part of the beauty of it for me is like exactly
what you described. There's such an ease to that.
It's so natural, it's so unforced to me.
There's like some folk references and like these songs
that have really lyrical and like memorable melodies but also
have the room to kind of open up and stretch.
I feel like their records are like ones that 15 years from now
I put on and I'm like. That's it.
Sounds timeless in the best sense, yes.
So we've left one for last. Who seems to be someone who's a
regular collaborator of yours at the current moment.
What can we say about the Anthony Parks?
De Anthony's like one of one. He's one of those artists who
you might like, like if I say, if we say his name to any given
person, they have an association.
And it's rare that somebody is like, knows actually the like
breath of things that he's been a part of and contributed to
because he's like integral to so many situations and such a like
diverse range of interests. And to me, he is obviously like
an incredible drummer and percussionist, but also
composer. I think there are many people
who aren't fully familiar with the power of his pen as well.
But I also see him as like a real, like a, like a, an
innovator and like visionary, like music technologist, you
know, the project that he's bringing techno self.
He's got a whole like, yeah, like a whole ethos and
philosophy behind it, which which is deep.
And like, you know, his, his, I can't summarize it, but he's
talking about like humans, like we're like we are the technology
kind of like stretching the imagination.
And I think that he is just somebody who is, is so musical
and also just is always pushing and stretching.
There's like the on the instrument.
Also like if you see his, there's often like these
beautiful visual elements. You'll see him like, you know,
manipulating these samples and playing drums and like you kind
of hear, it's amazing to me to observe him hear something new
and imagine a whole new world from it.
The way that he performs this project to it.
Like really as a listener and an audience member, like you're
part of the creation. It's like a a collaboration in
real time where like you're part of the process of him.
John Kale, Michelle Andre Mars Volta.
Like, like it's the, the art is, is deep in him, you know?
Yeah, I, I've seen videos of some of the solo performances
and, you know, it's just like, you know, I, I'm very much
looking forward to that one. Yes, yeah, it's it's something
to be experienced. Yeah, if you get.
It's funny, I was at the listening party for Fleas
record. Like it's the art is deep in
him. Yeah, I've seen videos of some
of the solo performances and it's just, I'm very much looking
forward to that one. Yes, it's something to be
experienced. So what's SML got up their
sleeve? Y'all got like we got like 2
shows at night for three nights in a row.
We do we, we, we'll have some special guests.
We're always looking to explore and I think we're always wanting
to expand. We know what we've already done,
but we want to see what else we can do and see what new terrain
and topography we can explore. And for us too, I think often
having guests is a nice injection of some different
energy that also makes us do different things.
And So what do we do now? What are we going to find?
And, and we love sharing that experience with people.
I think on the topic of humanity, I think like all of
us, going on that ride together is like one of the most exciting
things for me. So you're ready to start your
own festival after this little test of of curating?
You know, I like the curation front.
I know there's, I know there's a lot of other work.
I haven't, I haven't, I haven't seen so.
But yeah, I, I'm, I'm so grateful that you asked.
And yeah, it's real, real pleasure.
Well, I'm so grateful that you said yes because you know, it's
it's it's introduced a really fresh aspect to the festival
this year that has made it certainly more exciting for me
and I think for everyone who attends.
So can't wait to hear that these artists and three nights of FMLS
explorations. You can catch Josh Johnson and
his curation all over Big Years 2026.
For daily schedules, visit bigyearsfestival.org.
Big Years Conversations about Music is a production of Big
Years Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti.
The show is produced by Matt Marowitz.
This episode was edited by Alex Arif.
Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big
Ears Festival. Thanks for listening and until
next time, keep those ears wide open.