1 00:00:07,670 --> 00:00:11,710 Welcome back to Big Ears conversations about music. 2 00:00:11,950 --> 00:00:21,230 I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. In this episode, composer, 3 00:00:21,350 --> 00:00:26,030 vocalist and project maker Lisa Bilava sits down with a renowned 4 00:00:26,030 --> 00:00:29,720 classical and new music journalist, Steve Smith, whose 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,160 writing has appeared in The New York Times, Time Out, New York, 6 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,000 New Music Box, and who now publishes the insightful 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,440 newsletter Night After Night. Together they explore Bilava's 8 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:46,880 extraordinary broadcast works, focusing on Knoxville broadcast 9 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,040 massive site specific spatial Symphony commissioned by Big 10 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,120 Ears Festival. Bilava also reflects on the 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,640 origins of the broadcast model, her ethos of community 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,840 participation, and her multifaceted career, from 13 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,360 touring the world with the Philip Glass Ensemble to forging 14 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,720 her own voice as a composer who bridges traditions and 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,160 rearranges hierarchies. Have a listen. 16 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,880 Hi, my name is Steve Smith. I'm a writer and editor based in 17 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,960 New York City, and I've been covering music in the city for 18 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:37,040 around 30 years or so. I have the great pleasure of 19 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,240 speaking with composer Lisa Biloa. 20 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,840 Lisa, would you like to tell us something about yourself? 21 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,160 Sure. Nice to see you, Steve. 22 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,200 My name is Lisa Bilawa and I am a composer and a project maker 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,920 and a singer also, and I'm coming to you from Knoxville, 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,960 TN. Which is appropriate because we 25 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,480 are chatting about your work in advance of Knoxville broadcast 26 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,600 new site specific spatial Symphony that you'll be 27 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,840 presenting at World's Fair Park in Knoxville on October 17th and 28 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,560 18th in collaboration with Big Ears. 29 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,760 And I would like to start with something you posted on 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,680 Instagram in late July. It was a photograph of a 31 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,720 computer screen filled with color-coded spreadsheets, 32 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,640 similar printouts on the desk, and a collection of colored pens 33 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:23,680 and pencils. And beside the photo you wrote, 34 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,080 it must be broadcast time. Every time I begin the mapping 35 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,520 and planning stages for a large scale urban broadcast, it's time 36 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,560 for the color pencils, maps, and color-coded macro scores. 37 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,200 Every color represents a unique ensemble ranging in size from 20 38 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,080 to over 150 people. So my first question is 39 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,360 straightforward, if perhaps not simple. 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,080 What is a broadcast and how does it work? 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,800 Sure, thank you. Well, a broadcast it it 42 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,240 obviously is a word that has existed in relation to radio for 43 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,440 a long time, but it pre existed radio. 44 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,280 It's etymology includes just the simple broadcast to cast and or 45 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,640 scatter in all directions. So to broadcast means and that's 46 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:12,920 what sounds does. Of course, when there is a 47 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:17,480 broadcast podcast is, you know, a portmanteau made from 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:23,880 broadcast and pod, right? So broadcast, when I do a 49 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,120 broadcast, it's sort of taken on a number of meetings over over 50 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,600 the years. But the original and one of the 51 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,200 most sort of fundamental reasons I use the word broadcast is that 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,480 the performance of the piece in public space actually does 53 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,600 broadcast. Meaning that all of the groups 54 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,960 that participate in their multiple ensembles, multiple 55 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,880 music ensembles that participate, and they all start 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,560 in the central location in a big public space. 57 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,120 And over the course of the 45 minute or so composition, the 58 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,800 groups move away from each other. 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,120 They broadcast from the center out and fill the space with 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,960 sound. So it's sort of like a slow Big 61 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,880 Bang of like community sound. That's kind of the idea. 62 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,120 Oh, that's, that's, that's a very, very vivid impression. 63 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,320 Are, are, were there specific precedents you were thinking of 64 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,000 when you developed this form? I mean, I, I, I think in terms 65 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,560 of historic spatialized compositions by people like Carl 66 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,880 Heinz Stockhausen or Henry Grant or, or certainly Anthony 67 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,400 Braxton. And I wondered, did you have any 68 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,440 of that in mind when you were developing? 69 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,400 You know, I that's an excellent question, and it's one that I 70 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,920 could answer only circuitously because I'm find that I'm much 71 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,920 smarter afterwards about where the work comes from than I am in 72 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,320 the midst of it. Because if I try to 73 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,640 contextualize myself as I'm working, it's sort of like 74 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,680 trying to look at the back of your head in a mirror or 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,040 something. And I actually find that others, 76 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,360 as you've just demonstrated, who know the field are actually 77 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,600 better at contextualizing my work within the field than I am. 78 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,960 I will say though, that I do believe that everything we 79 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,240 experience as as humans and therefore as artists and and 80 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,720 music makers is influenced by what we encounter. 81 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,720 And I did work with Anthony Braxton. 82 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,440 I was, I sang, I sang the role of Shala and his Shala appears 83 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,720 for the Poor Opera back in 1996. And I also met Henry Brandt. 84 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,440 I had the pleasure of going to his house and seeing his piano 85 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,600 that was up on stilts and like, you know, so these are, you've 86 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,520 mentioned a couple people that I admire and, and knew and know. 87 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,840 So I'm sure that got in there, but it never occurred to me 88 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:42,920 before what you just said. So. 89 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,840 Amazing. Well, the, the initial 90 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:50,040 broadcasts that you presented happened just over a decade ago. 91 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,120 They were in 2013 the airfield broadcasts at Tempelhof Airport 92 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,080 near Berlin and then at Chrissy Field near San Francisco. 93 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,400 So how did those projects, how were they initiated in the first 94 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,440 place? I had the Rome Prize and, and in 95 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:14,040 like 20, 2009, 2010 and it was awesome. 96 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,920 But there's no air conditioning where there is now. 97 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,160 There wasn't back then. So it was like summer, the end 98 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,320 of my time there, June maybe. I thought, man, I had to get out 99 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,360 of the city. So I went to, I went to Berlin 100 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,520 to visit friends. And I remember that it was at 101 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,200 that particular time they were very excited to show me 102 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,840 Tempelhof Airfield because I had been to West Berlin as a member 103 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,080 of the San Francisco Girls course as a teenager. 104 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:43,840 You. Know. 105 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,160 And so I knew about Tempelhof when it was an airport, although 106 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,200 I think at the time I flew to table, but it had just been 107 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,040 opened up to the public as a as in certain urban space. 108 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,360 And I went there with these friends of mine. 109 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,760 It it really was still very much runways and a terminal building. 110 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,520 I mean, it had not yet been sort of, it hadn't taken on a park 111 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,440 like aspect yet at all. Walked out on the on the runway 112 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,880 and I realized that I could hear like a small dog yapping or a 113 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,600 child, you know, like 500 meters away. 114 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,520 And I thought, man, that is unbelievable. 115 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,720 Wouldn't it be amazing because I had already started to do work 116 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,960 in public space at that point. I did chance encounter with the 117 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,400 Knights and Susan Aruki. We did that in several cities, 118 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,200 you know, this piece with in smaller forces, but using sort 119 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,000 of spatialized sound in parks spaces where people can kind of 120 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,400 don't even know that there's going to be a performance. 121 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,200 And then all of a sudden it would see what's happening, 122 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:51,160 which, you know, was, was really just around a little bit before 123 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,080 a lot of these kinds of like, you know, flash mob, musical 124 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,760 flash mobs. It was a little before that 125 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,840 actually. So I thought of that because we 126 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,480 had just done Chance Encounter in Rome. 127 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,920 And so I was thinking along the lines of staging and sort of 128 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,360 hearing musical kind of interpretations of cities. 129 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,600 We had just done Chance Encounter on the Tiber River, on 130 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,480 the banks of the Tiber River. And that was really traumatic, 131 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,560 and it left me yearning for just more people because in order to 132 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:26,720 make sound in the big world without technology, without 133 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,280 amplification, you need just the amplification of humans. 134 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,919 You need lots of people. So I thought, what if I got 135 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:36,760 hundreds of people out here on this runway like making music? 136 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:39,120 Wouldn't that be awesome? So that's how it happened. 137 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,280 And was it from from the very beginning, did you conceive this 138 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,400 as something that would be accessible to and performable by 139 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,160 amateur musicians? Or did it start out as a more 140 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,760 professional model and then evolve? 141 00:08:54,040 --> 00:09:00,240 I think once I got inspired by the fact that Berlin had taken 142 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,240 this former military airfield with such a history, right, and 143 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,040 just sort of turned it over to the people to use it. 144 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,480 It, it seemed like it was in keeping with that to also open 145 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,000 up the piece, to have it be something that could be 146 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,520 participatory, the spirit of the park itself. 147 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,640 And then, you know, I was living in New York during this whole 148 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:26,600 time, but I was at that point working in San Francisco. 149 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,480 And also I grew up there. So I would visit and I was 150 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,480 trying to get my head around these kinds of huge spaces with, 151 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:39,200 you know, so I would go to San Francisco, to Chrissy Field, 152 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,600 which is near where I was, where I was staying, and just try to 153 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,200 get a sense of the vastness of the scale, right. 154 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,560 And while I was there, I started hearing fog horns and I started 155 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:54,160 writing, I tried transcribing the fog horns. 156 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,320 So the beginning actual the, the, the first section of the 157 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,880 piece is transcription of the San Francisco fog horns. 158 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,400 So I sort of bring, you know, anyway, that's not really an 159 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,520 answer to your question about whether, you know, sort of 160 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,680 amateur or vocational music makers are part of it. 161 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:15,440 But it has this sort of vastness of scale that if you 162 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,440 professionalize the vastness of scale, then you're kind of 163 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,680 making a different statement. That's right. 164 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,600 That's right. Well, and that's that's an 165 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,960 interesting point about this entire model and about the 166 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,880 locations that it's been. Would you say that there is a 167 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,240 sort of social or political aspect to the broadcast model, 168 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,840 the idea of sort of democratizing the process where 169 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,200 anybody can can be a part of it and even those who are 170 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,560 spectators are also, in a way, participants? 171 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,760 Well, I think it's very hard to politicize music, you know, 172 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,720 because music is not a denotative form. 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,000 Like music is bad at saying this is a glass, you know, doesn't 174 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,320 say that very well. I mean, you can maybe think 175 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,360 that's, you know, if you attach words to it, then then it can 176 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,000 seem to mean what the words are saying, right? 177 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,000 Tin pan Ally songwriters knew that, you know, because they 178 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,240 wrote melodies and put them on the shelf to wait to see whether 179 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 they were going to be rousing anti war songs or rousing pro 180 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,880 war songs. So do you see what I'm saying? 181 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:33,360 So in a way, as a composer, I would say, I mean, like this is 182 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,080 music, right? I, I guess the fact that it is 183 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,840 sort of can it can include anybody, anybody could 184 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,320 participate. Is that a, is that a, a stance? 185 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,080 You know, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a structural reality 186 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:53,160 piece. Does it create joy? 187 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:01,480 Yeah, You know, is that my hope? I mean, sure, you know I am 188 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,040 inspired by that, right? But whether or not you interpret 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,040 it that way is kind of not up to me. 190 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,080 You've since done, you've done choral broadcasts, virtual 191 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,240 reality broadcasts, A pandemic era broadcast involving online 192 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,560 participants around the world. Is there to use something common 193 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,040 to all of these varied pieces other than participation? 194 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,760 Is there a theme that runs throughout the series? 195 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:58,240 Yes, I think there is. I think broad based, broad based 196 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,120 participation is the theme. So when you know, and, and it's 197 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,960 interesting, we were talking just a moment ago about text and 198 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,680 you said that I had choral done choral broadcast, which is true. 199 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,680 And I'm, I'm continuing to, to develop some of those as well. 200 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,040 But the first two broadcasts in 2013 in Berlin and San Francisco 201 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,960 were wordless. There were choirs, but they're 202 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,280 saying ba ba ba or da da or La La Luke. 203 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,240 And then I did Mauer broadcast in in Berlin, which is the 204 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,680 second Berlin based sort of project. 205 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,520 And that was actually based on text collected by artist Cheryl 206 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,720 Oering. It was for the 30th anniversary 207 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,120 of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And these texts were from the 208 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,440 20th, I guess it was the, the 25th people's people's memories 209 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,880 of the wall. So I learned through that 210 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,280 process, and especially when you're working with a vocational 211 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,800 singers, words are helpful because they sing better and 212 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,280 they make more sound when they're singing words than if 213 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,040 you just give them blah, blah, blah, blah. 214 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,240 So it was really a Sonic decision to start incorporating 215 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,520 words. But at this point, I would say, 216 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,800 yes, you know, it became a way to even further advance these 217 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,240 sort of the inclusivity of participation by crowdsourcing 218 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,320 words that are sung from the community in which they're sung. 219 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,520 Right, right. Exactly. 220 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,560 And that it is definitely broadcast from home. 221 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,280 My pandemic era one, which obviously couldn't broadcast in 222 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,320 a strict sense because people were all trapped at home and 223 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,440 couldn't broadcast themselves anywhere except through their 224 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,960 computers. So it took on a new meaning 225 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,240 there. But I think it it has become a 226 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,200 part of it. For me. 227 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,240 This is a very important part of a broadcast now is to also 228 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,480 Crowdsource sort of the words of the community that I'm making 229 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,680 the project in. And and that beautifully sets up 230 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,800 my next question, which is how did Knoxville Broadcast come to 231 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,840 be and can you walk us through the project a bit? 232 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,280 Sure. Yeah, I, I was at Long Haven 233 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,320 Artist Residency a year ago, which is a wonderful artist 234 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,000 residency program here in, in Knoxville. 235 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,800 And while I was here, I was I had just finished Louisville 236 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,440 broadcasts, which was the third of the big city broadcasts in 237 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,680 partnership with the Louisville Orchestra and their creators 238 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,480 core program. So I had done that program. 239 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,680 I mean that that that iteration of broadcast at that time, I was 240 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,320 just coming off of that and I had was turning my attentions to 241 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,200 working with Appalachian traditional musicians. 242 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,440 And when I came here to Eastern Tennessee, I spent a lot of my 243 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,360 time kind of going around and hearing traditional music 244 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,200 making. And I started to get a sense for 245 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,000 what a powerful, not just in traditional music making. 246 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,400 And we will have that represented and that's what 247 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,920 broadcast that that particular kind of very distinctive sound. 248 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,880 But I became aware of how broad and vital and, and like really 249 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,880 exciting the music making kind of the, the ethos of music 250 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,880 making is to Knoxville culture. And of course, I, you know, I 251 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,440 had coffee with Ashley Capps at that time and he, you know, who 252 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,040 is founder of the big years festival. 253 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:18,800 And we were talking about a number of things, but he had 254 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,320 seen the Louisville broadcast, you know, documentation and we 255 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,160 got to talking about that. And I was like, you know, I 256 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,840 mean, we both basically said this would be a perfect town for 257 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,880 that. This would be a really, really 258 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,840 great way to do it. So, and that was just a little 259 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,280 over a year ago. It used to take 3 or 4 years to 260 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280 put a broadcast together, but I'm getting a little faster. 261 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,920 Did you? Do you have any significant 262 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,640 personal links to Knoxville or to Big Ears predating this 263 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,840 encounter with Ashley? You know, my first time ever in 264 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,400 Knoxville was when I came, you know, to log Haven a year and a 265 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,400 half ago, which I applied for and, you know, came here. 266 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,160 But I will say that, you know, I I arrived in in Louisville, KY 267 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,240 in 2022, you know, for the 2223 season I lived in in Louisville. 268 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,319 And because of the way this program is designed, this is 269 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,319 Teddy Abrams, you know, creators core program, the composers who 270 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,839 who are in residence are living in Kentucky. 271 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:20,880 And I also went on tour with the orchestra all over and got to 272 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,800 know Appalachian musicians and collaborate with them. 273 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,119 And so it is that was over. You know, that was almost three 274 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,960 years ago now. So this has been one of my deep 275 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,400 dives. I tend to do sort of like, you 276 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,960 know, Berlin was one of them. And I mean, I've had these sort 277 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,360 of cultural deep dives. I, I transport myself someplace 278 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,800 and make a, make myself a sort of a second home citizen and 279 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,000 I've done that with this part of the country for the last few 280 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,880 years so. I see. 281 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,440 I, I, I guess I would have just assumed that at some point you 282 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,080 would have ended up at Big Ears. But I think even for for artists 283 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,800 who have not performed there and, and even for audience 284 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,560 members who have not been there, I think the Big Ears ethos of, 285 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,040 of a city full of music has sort of become something that we're 286 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,080 all very aware of now. Well, I was on the Big Years 287 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,200 festival this year with the Philip Glass Ensemble, but that 288 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,320 our planning for Knoxville broadcast predated predated my 289 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,120 coming here, you know, for that. But, you know, obviously Big 290 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:22,560 Years is something I've always known about. 291 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,320 I almost went when I was in Louisville that had conflicts 292 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,920 and you know, yeah, before this year I had never performed on 293 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,600 the festival, so it was great to be part of it. 294 00:18:55,550 --> 00:18:59,310 I want to turn now to your musical background. 295 00:18:59,310 --> 00:19:01,670 You you grew up in a musical household. 296 00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:04,270 Certainly your father is a well known composer. 297 00:19:04,590 --> 00:19:09,710 What was your early exposure to music like and when did you 298 00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:11,270 determine you would be a composer? 299 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,240 I don't know if I've determined that yet. 300 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:23,440 I, my brother and I were, you know, it was sort of 301 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,920 unavoidable. And we started on Suzuki violin. 302 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,080 I was three years old. And when he was three, he 303 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,320 started a violin. And I had this little plastic, 304 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,080 you know, whatever, when I was 2 trying to make it because I 305 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,680 wanted to do everything he did. You know, my mother is an early 306 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,280 music performance practice scholar. 307 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,960 So I was also, by the time I was 8 or 9, I was singing, you know, 308 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,960 doctoral recitals at Stanford, you know, as in sort of early 309 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,000 Italian Renaissance, you know, whatever baroque music. 310 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,920 I mean, this was a sort of part of what I was doing. 311 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,760 And my father was had had started the electronic music 312 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,760 studio at San Francisco State University. 313 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,400 I was born in 68. So this was like, you know, in 314 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,920 the 70s, it was this huge time for experimental innovation, you 315 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,880 know, in, in the Bay Area and. I got to know just, I, I 316 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,960 remember when I was really small, just kind of being in, 317 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,200 you know, in the electronic music studio for lack of a 318 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,640 babysitter, I suppose, you know, on the, on the floor playing 319 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,280 with like synthesizer parts and stuff. 320 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,440 So my upbringing was I was playing the violin, playing 321 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,240 piano. I was singing in my mother's 322 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,280 church choir because she's an organist as well. 323 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,680 Was very, sort of was very stratified, right? 324 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,680 Like I was either in sort of Bach and before or I was in like 325 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,880 the mid 20th century or later, you know, and one of the things 326 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,440 that I didn't really know that much about was classic romantic 327 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,280 music. Like I kind of skipped that. 328 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,440 I didn't know about like, you know, Mozart didn't really, you 329 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,320 know, I didn't. I didn't know that Like, I 330 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,880 thought that Cooper Amp was a major composer, but I didn't 331 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,000 know about like Beethoven necessarily. 332 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,680 And that gap in my education, I mean, it's since been filled in. 333 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,560 But I'll never be somebody who built out from it. 334 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,360 I'll always be somebody who found my way towards it by 335 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:18,400 crawling either from historically before it or 336 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,040 crawling back to it. I still have soft spots in there 337 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,280 like stuff I don't get. Sure. 338 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,720 You know, like, what is that stuff? 339 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,560 The late 19th century? I can't make any sense of that 340 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,480 music, you know? Well, you know, neither could 341 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:33,840 they. That's kind of the point. 342 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,480 We we needed a revolution to come along and sweep it all 343 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,440 away. But I mean, what you're saying 344 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,520 is actually it's, it's very sympathetic to what we all read 345 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,640 about Steve Reich being a modern musician who was completely 346 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,040 swept up in just Scan and Paratan and that very, very 347 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800 early music. So I think having that doughnut 348 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,280 hole in the middle is pretty common. 349 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,960 And I, I share that as a percussionist, I learned music 350 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,800 history completely backwards. So were there certain composers 351 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,880 who were especially influential to you as you came up? 352 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,520 Were, were there composers who you said, hmm, that's 353 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,680 interesting. I want to move toward that. 354 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,840 I, I, I would say there are people who are interesting, but 355 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,840 I've never sort of seen myself in a kind of a mentor protege 356 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,080 relationship. I've never, I've never slotted 357 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,920 myself into, I don't know, like a a historical chain of, of 358 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,960 composerly fellows. There's. 359 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,240 There's not an. There's not an ISM for you. 360 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,680 Well, you know, I mean, somebody else could come up with it. 361 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,600 I mean, like Philip, that that's, you know, minimalism is 362 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,880 something somebody else said about, you know, whatever works 363 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,120 for you. You know, I'm not. 364 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Again, if you hear my music as being related to certain things, 365 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,080 then you're never wrong because it's your head that's hearing it 366 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:50,440 you. Know. 367 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:54,200 I mean, I do remember as a child, you know, via Donna, you 368 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,240 know, singing the via Donna when I was, you know, who's Ludovico, 369 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,280 via Donna, who's an early, thank you Venetian. 370 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,160 And then also my brother and I used to dance around the living 371 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,440 room to Morton Subotnick's Silver Apples of the Moon, you 372 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,880 know, like she's just, you know, like we had some, I loved Frank 373 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,360 Zappa, the Mothers of Invention, you know, I got like video and 374 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,440 it was kind of great because later on, like some of the 375 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,040 people I admired, like Laurie Anderson, I got to work with 376 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,280 her. I got to tour with her later, 377 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,280 you know, I know her now. And, you know, John Zorn is like 378 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,120 a friend and, you know, toured all over the world with his 379 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,160 music, you know, and I've gotten a chance as a singer too. 380 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,080 I've gotten a chance to sort of sing at a professional level and 381 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800 record Peritan, you know, you know, all of this sort of all 382 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,040 this early stuff. I mean, that to me has had and 383 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,640 Bach, of course, I got to be the soloist with the Bach the the 384 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,840 Vespers series in New York for several years. 385 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,200 And, you know, these things came through me because of my active 386 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,720 music making. So it wasn't as a problem sort 387 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,880 of sitting there listening, thinking I want to do that, 388 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,640 right? It was that everything I got 389 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,720 involved in left its imprint on me. 390 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,920 I, I think the reason that I brought it up is just because, 391 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,560 OK, you, you, you think about a geographic area and then you 392 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,360 think, well, there are these people who represent that area. 393 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:14,600 And so you mentioned Subotnick, who was certainly emblematic of 394 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,040 a time in San Francisco. And I was also thinking about 395 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,680 guru like figures like Terry Riley. 396 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,360 But I I like the way you sort of described that it was all in the 397 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,320 atmosphere and you breathed it in, but what came out was your 398 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,640 own right? Your own idiom. 399 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,120 Yeah, I'm not really a guru follower. 400 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,840 I mean, I have plenty of colleagues who are older than I 401 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,320 am and further along, you know, chief among them is Philip 402 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,680 Glass. I mean, I've been working with 403 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,160 him for decades now. But he's a friend, you know, 404 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,560 and, and I have a job to do for him, you know, I mean, and he's 405 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,640 a job to do for me. Like when he writes new stuff, 406 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,720 like, you know, I'd have to make it work, you know, and we have 407 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,160 to make, we were making work together. 408 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,520 And, and, you know, of course I admire him, but I also admire a 409 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,960 bunch of musicians I know who are 20 years old. 410 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,320 So I think, you know, it's a very rich field. 411 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,240 And as long as I'm in the deep end of it, which I hope to be, 412 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:18,360 you know, so I can't swim anymore, actually can't swim, 413 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,840 which is kind of funny. But you know, I, I feel like 414 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,520 that admiration, it's, it's more of a, like a, a network of, of 415 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,960 kinds of influences and relationships that that goes in 416 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:55,400 all directions. You know, as you were just 417 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,120 saying, your personal musical style, or perhaps that is styles 418 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,080 and we'll get to that. It's not easily boiled down to a 419 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,760 slogan that fits on a name tag or even really a bumper sticker. 420 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,000 I mean, you've you've composed for Symphony orchestras and 421 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,240 coral ensembles and chamber groups in what could be 422 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,800 construed as conventional concert music idioms. 423 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,280 You've, you've had multiple residencies with orchestras that 424 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,960 have been both that and other very disparate things. 425 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,320 You've composed multiple operas and you've written rather 426 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,640 eclectic works as in the type that we were just talking about 427 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,240 a few moments ago involving improvisers and people who come 428 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,600 from outside of the so-called classical music tradition. 429 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,840 I mean, I think about your Kafka songs for Carla Kilstadt, who is 430 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,480 tasked to sing and play at the same time, and also hear the the 431 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,960 piece you wrote for for Lindsey Branson, the singer-songwriter 432 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,640 with the bluegrass trio and the Louisville. 433 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Orcas, but I wrote that with her. 434 00:26:58,800 --> 00:26:59,600 Right. With her it was. 435 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,120 Co composed with her, yeah. Taking all of this into account, 436 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,640 how would you describe what you set out to do as a composer? 437 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,880 What's your motivation for bet for lack of a better? 438 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,320 Food. Well, at the moment I'll say 439 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,720 like, I can only answer at the moment because I don't remember, 440 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,280 I started writing music when I was like 7, you know, So like, I 441 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,880 don't remember what I was trying to do back then. 442 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:25,800 But I at the moment I'm particularly interested in sort 443 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:32,480 of problematizing like hierarchies within, in the sort 444 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,160 of the music fields and the music fox. 445 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,560 You know, we call it a singership. 446 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:44,720 What's your fock, right? I like the idea of meshing with 447 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,600 a tradition of music making that's outside my own training, 448 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,800 right? In a way that is not appropriate 449 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,560 to the in a way that sort of meets it where it is that, you 450 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,520 know, like with Lindsey Branson, she and I like found, you know, 451 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,440 we're just kind of bashing around trying to find a way to 452 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,720 work so that she could bring her musicians in. 453 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,440 She worked with a bunch of people from the the bluegrass 454 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,680 school that's up there at near Hazard, KY, and I brought in the 455 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960 little orchestra and they're trying to find ways for a non 456 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,880 hierarchical what to to, you know, to create work together 457 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,680 and each each circumstances different. 458 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,720 Like here. I've just learned last week the 459 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,360 Nashville numbers for music, you know, because I'm going to be 460 00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,320 working with traditional musicians here in Eastern 461 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,320 Tennessee. I didn't know this system in San 462 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,160 Francisco. I had to learn a notation system 463 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,600 for the Chinese instrument ensemble like I didn't, you 464 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,000 know, so I'm, you know, Alfenhorn's in Berlin or 465 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,400 whatever. I'm, I'm really hungry for, to, 466 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,480 to find traditions of music making because it is, of course, 467 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,000 universal, right? And interact with that in a way 468 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,440 that doesn't tug at it and it doesn't Take Me Out of who I am 469 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,800 either. So I liken this. 470 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,440 Lately I've been likening it to the medical from, from Japanese 471 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,840 traditional cuisine. Japanese traditional cuisine. 472 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,200 The philosophy is that you have different things that are 473 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,280 beautiful tasting together on a plate, but they're not allowed 474 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,400 to touch. So every group I bring into a 475 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,520 broadcast, for example, that's sort of that has their own 476 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,080 strong tradition. I, I make a way, I find a way 477 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,440 with them to create a vessel in the peace such that they can be 478 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,200 in it as themselves. And I don't, I don't like, I, I 479 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,120 try to find those ways. I mean, it's a, it's constantly 480 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:42,280 shifting learning, you know, a lesson for me, but I, I find it 481 00:29:42,280 --> 00:30:12,040 really exciting right now. Operating within what somebody 482 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,360 might call the classical music world that that also requires 483 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,560 you to have some very open minded collaborators to put on 484 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,000 big pieces like this. I mean, I'm thinking about Teddy 485 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,320 Abrams, as you mentioned in, in Louisville or, you know, Gil 486 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,320 Rose in Boston. And, and so do those 487 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,600 collaborators are are you finding them easier to find? 488 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,280 I I think what I'm trying to say is, is the world of classical 489 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,640 music evolving to accommodate a creator like yourself? 490 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,360 Wow, I, I, I think those are two different questions you. 491 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,560 Know. You say, are they easier to 492 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,280 find? I mean, I was, I'm thinking 493 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,880 about I had copy the other day with Jacob Gottlieb, who's the 494 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,080 the the program manager for the creators core program and at 495 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,440 Louisville Orchestra for Teddy Teddy's program. 496 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,160 And I was, I can't remember what we were talking about, but he 497 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,160 said something like, yeah, well, you know, you can, you know, you 498 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,720 can, you can find geniuses anywhere. 499 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,600 You can, you know, but you can't find open hearted people very 500 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,960 often among them, you know, because we were talking about I 501 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,360 don't can't remember what it was, but I and he said it better 502 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,840 than I just did, but I just was so touched that by that. 503 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,200 I think, you know, geniuses. I've known a lot of geniuses. 504 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,680 I've worked with a lot of geniuses. 505 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,680 I'm selective, actually, about the geniuses I want to work 506 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,400 with, you know, because I need people to have an open heart. 507 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440 You know, I think of Colin and Eric Jacobson, who, you know, at 508 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,400 the nightside, you know, I'm the book and writer. 509 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,160 I work with them for decades. Gil Rose, I started working with 510 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,280 him in 2003, you know, and here we are heading into another 511 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,120 season. You know, I was just, I just 512 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,440 think I would not say they're easier to find, but I would say 513 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:08,000 that I have had already, by having found my handful of them, 514 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,040 like, you know, 10 or so, you know, I feel like I have have 515 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,440 riches beyond one lifetime. So that's the first answer. 516 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,400 The second answer is, you know, I mean, obviously it's easier 517 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,240 now that I have, I've done this before. 518 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,280 It's easier for somebody like Ashley Capps, you know, who's a 519 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,800 visionary behind big ears. It's easier for him to find me 520 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,960 now, you know, like, in other words, I don't have to kind of 521 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,120 knock on doors and say like, I'm, you know, when I went to 522 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,120 the Tempelhof, the Cumberland, which is the the green, you 523 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,160 know, the, the Parks Department of Berlin to try to introduce 524 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,920 myself. I mean, that was crazy. 525 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,520 I had no documentation of other projects, similar projects to 526 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,360 show them or anything. I mean, it has taken a certain 527 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,680 kind of partner along the way to, you know, to step up. 528 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,280 But also I've been willing to do a lot of these things myself. 529 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,560 I mean, Christo, you know, once said when they interviewed him 530 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,760 about one of his big projects, you know, isn't it, wouldn't it 531 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,680 be great if you had more support for what you're doing so that 532 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,040 you wouldn't have to do all these town meetings and, you 533 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,000 know, on permits and stuff like that and you could just do the 534 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,200 work. And he said, well, but that is 535 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,600 the work, you know, which I think is, which is how I feel 536 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,960 too. You know, I, I, I always have to 537 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,320 get in there and like and want to get in there. 538 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,240 I'm an executive producer as well as a composer. 539 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,480 I'm a producer as well as a composer because this is 540 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,160 something I had to be willing to do. 541 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,320 I can't expect people, no matter how many times I've missed, no 542 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,920 matter where I am in my career, you know, you've got to, to, to 543 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,640 lift a whole wall like this. You know you've got to. 544 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,600 Everyone has to be pulling. That's that's beautiful. 545 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,840 I almost want to clam up and not say anything else and just put a 546 00:33:45,840 --> 00:34:14,199 period. You've been, as you said, you've 547 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,440 been performing with Philip Glass and the Philip Glass 548 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,679 Ensemble Beyond for more than 30 years now, and you've sung in 549 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,520 vocal ensembles that John Zorn has taken all over the world. 550 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,840 How does your life as a performer impact your work as a 551 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,159 composer, as a creator for other performers? 552 00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,239 Oh, it absolutely does. I mean, I don't, you know, I 553 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,880 absolutely stand by my decision to keep performing 554 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,639 professionally throughout the whole sort of, you know, the arc 555 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,560 of my composing career because I got a big break by getting the 556 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,239 glass ensemble job when I was 2223 years old, you know, and I 557 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,000 really didn't have any compositional career to speak up 558 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,360 yet, right? So the singing happened 1st. 559 00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,600 And I remember people saying to me, look, you know, you're going 560 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,320 to have to make a decision at some point. 561 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,920 You know, you're going to have to decide whether you're a 562 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,560 singer or a composer. And I thought, well, who says I 563 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:06,520 have to decide? I don't want to. 564 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,320 I mean, I don't know. I don't think I ever decided is 565 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,640 what I'm saying. But the, the balance shifts. 566 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,960 And the reason I think it's important is that I'm asking 567 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,440 people to do things often that are outside their comfort zone. 568 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,800 And if I don't also get out on stage still in front of 569 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,200 thousands of people like I do all the time and get outside my 570 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,280 own comfort zone, then why am I asking other people to do that? 571 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,680 You know, again, it's a hierarchical thing. 572 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,080 It's like, what am I willing to, you know? 573 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,240 I mean, there has to be not just I, I have to not just be making 574 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,280 demands on people, but making loving demands on them because I 575 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,080 know what the rewards are of meeting those kinds of demands, 576 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,400 right. So I think, I mean, there's 577 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,880 still, I don't often write music for myself to perform, but this 578 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,000 season I'm going to be, there are a couple times when 579 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,600 commissioners actually request me as a performer in my own 580 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,160 music. And there's a piece that was 581 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,680 commissioned by Hadio France for the group ensemble Variance in 582 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,640 Rouen and called Inchesavi Volche. 583 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,800 I'm going to be doing it twice this coming season, once at 584 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,640 Eastman and I once at the Miller Theatre. 585 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,360 It's part of their composer portrait series. 586 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,000 So I'm going to be back sort of on stage. 587 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,040 That's going to be with Contemporaneous I'm going to be 588 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,720 back on stage like and I'm going to have to get my all myself 589 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:22,880 together for that, you know, like I do for the for the glass. 590 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,320 I know it's like, oh, I have a kind of skatsie coming up. 591 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,680 I've got to, you know, no matter what it is I'm doing with all my 592 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,120 crazy, you know, composing deadlines, I have to sing every 593 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960 day to get ready for that stuff. You know, it's a physical 594 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,960 practice and I think it's really healthy. 595 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,360 It keeps keeps things in a certain, it gives things a 596 00:36:44,360 --> 00:37:06,610 certain integrity for me. Final question for me is kind of 597 00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:09,850 a philosophical thing that has literally just occurred to me as 598 00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:14,650 we were talking, which has to do with the idea of history and 599 00:37:14,650 --> 00:37:18,490 legacy and preservation. Because, you know, you coming up 600 00:37:18,490 --> 00:37:22,530 working alongside Philip Glass, you would know this especially 601 00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:27,360 well, but a lot of composers of his generation or around his 602 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,320 generation that ran their own bands like Meredith Muck, like 603 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,840 Steve Reich, are now in a process of finding ways to score 604 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,080 or preserve their work so that it can be carried forward. 605 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,240 And you are part of a way of exemplifying that because you're 606 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:47,640 now working with the Philip Glass Ensemble, in which Glass 607 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,640 is not generally an active participant anymore, but it's 608 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,600 keeping that music alive. So I come to think of this in 609 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,320 the context of the broadcast model and in context of the old 610 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,880 saying that music is something that only exists in the air and 611 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,240 that it's gone what it is. Yeah, Exactly. 612 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:15,320 So then what is the future history slash legacy of these 613 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,840 broadcast pieces? Are they something that only 614 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,640 exists in the moment that they're happening, or is there a 615 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,440 way to document them sufficiently so that they get 616 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,080 carried on and perhaps repeated? Again, I mean, I think that's 617 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,600 several questions, so I'll give you 3 answers. 618 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,000 One of them is I love the ephemeral. 619 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,440 I love it. I think that people who are 620 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,280 there are special. The moment is special. 621 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,840 I like the fact that there's no footprint, you know, there's 622 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,240 because there's no tech, there's no electricity, there's no 623 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,440 stage, there's no production. Thousand, you know, 1000 people 624 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:48,920 come together, they make music. They're gone. 625 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:50,080 It's gone. It's over. 626 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,160 I love that. How many things are like that in 627 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,040 our world, right? Think about Generation Z, how 628 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,120 hungry they are for things that are IRL. 629 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,280 Know things that I mean, they had their education, you know, 630 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,960 interrupted by this entirely remote experience and now 631 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,760 they're in the world and they want to just come together and 632 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,600 do things that are real, that are, you know, and maybe that 633 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,080 maybe not be so focused on having to document everything 634 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,120 all the time. I celebrate that that's answer 635 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,560 one answer 2 is it's got to be documented. 636 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,000 It is also I do also have a very good I mean, we have good camera 637 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,760 crews and and audio and, you know, video capture. 638 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,280 There's been drone and crane footage everywhere. 639 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,600 There's been, you know, we've had great teams. 640 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,720 And so all of the other broad large city broadcasts that, you 641 00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:40,000 know, Temple Hoff and San Francisco and also and also 642 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,720 Louisville have been there are there are short films that can't 643 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,840 actually recreate the whole experience but are designed to 644 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,960 give a very good kind of, you know, feeling of what happened 645 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,880 there. And there are, you know, 646 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,960 broadcasts from home, for example, is assiduously 647 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,480 documented at the Library of Congress. 648 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,440 Like they own everything now, all of the source recordings, 649 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,480 everything, all the documentations, all the, all 650 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,560 that, which is great because, you know, I think that's really, 651 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,960 that's really important part of the process. 652 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,040 If somebody were to dive into that collection, they would, 653 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,360 they would, if they were nerdy enough, they'd figure out how I 654 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:14,640 did it. And I am organized. 655 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,040 I mean, you brought up this kind of, you know, this is if someone 656 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,960 really knew, I mean, someone could decipher this, they could 657 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,000 decipher this, you know? It's not anybody else's job 658 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,200 right now but mine because, you know, they went, they're 659 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,840 supposed to be joyful and carefree and make music 660 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,680 together. But yeah, it's, it's definitely 661 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,480 I'm, I'm because of the way I, I do my own process just for my 662 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,280 own self. I think it would be possible to, 663 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,360 to follow it up, but it's not actually my primary concern. 664 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,000 Like my mother says, you know, I'm not going to be here anyway, 665 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,280 you know? Which I think is kind of 666 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,760 healthy, right? Right. 667 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,280 Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big 668 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,080 Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. 669 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,040 The show is produced by Matt Marowitz. 670 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,720 This episode was edited by Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder. 671 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,440 Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big 672 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,720 Ears. Big Ears 2026 will take place 673 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:21,120 March 26th through 29th, 2026 in Knoxville, TN. 674 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,440 For more information and festival updates, visit 675 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,800 bigearsfestival.org. Thanks for listening and until 676 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,920 next time, keep those ears wide open.