Welcome to Big EARS conversations about music.
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. In this episode, music
journalist Liz Pelley sits down with two young songwriters
reimagining roots and Americana on their own terms, Hayden
Pettigo and SG Goodman. Pettigo, A fingerstyle guitarist
and instrumental songwriter, reflects on how growing up in
Texas shaped his music and how it didn't, while Goodman
explores her connection to Kentucky's storytelling
tradition and how ideas like Planting by the Signs and
regional colloquialisms find their way into her songs.
The conversation contrasts their distinct approaches to
songwriting while revealing their share challenge of
transcending expectation and genre in a post everything
world. Both artists will be performing
at the Big Ears Festival in Knoxville coming up March 26th
through 29th. Let's take a listen.
Hi, I'm Liz. I'm a music journalist space in
Brooklyn. I'm grateful to Big Ears for the
invitation to speak with you both.
I've really enjoyed the opportunity to get to spend some
time with both of your most recent records and reading a
little bit more about your work as a result of this.
Just to kind of ground us in this conversation, if you could
each start by just telling me a little bit about where you are
calling in from. And maybe then in addition to
kind of like geographically grounding us, maybe if you could
just tell me a little bit about like the season of life that
you're in right now? I'm hid Pedigo from Amarillo,
TX, but moved to Oklahoma City last year.
That's where I'm where I'm at right now.
I make instrumental guitar music.
It's kind of kind of country music, maybe like, in the
literal sense of like, where I'm from, don't use much pedal
steel. Yeah, I guess it's kind of like
experimental, you know, country music.
I guess I'm probably doing a bad job at describing it.
That was great. We I think I'm there with you.
Anyhow, I'm SG Goodman, currently chiming in from my
kitchen table in Murray, KY. I just got off the road about a
little less than a week ago with a, a Western United States run.
So I just woke up about 20 minutes ago because I'm still on
that time zone. And as far as what I do on a
good day, I make noise that folks don't run away from.
But I, I, I guess I consider myself, I'm singer-songwriter
kind of floating in the world of a country indie, whatever
Americana, you know, doesn't really matter.
But anyway, welcome to my kitchen table.
Well, thanks for having us in. And Hayden, are you like, in the
middle of a tour right now as well?
Yeah, I just got back from Europe tour, a six week Europe
tour and then and I played in Dartmouth, NS on Saturday.
So I got back last night from that and then I leave for a 7
week U.S. tour in like 7 days. Nice.
We're just home for a couple days.
We're all in the middle tours right now.
I literally I'm on a book tour right now.
I. Just got really.
Poland last night. I've basically been traveling
since August. But anyway, so we have like a
whole Zoom room of like fried people who are in the middle of
touring right now. Yeah.
Well, nice to meet you both to kind of like ground this
conversation. You know that we're we're
meeting in the context of big ears.
And at big ears, there are a lot of people on the lineup, like
amazing names on the lineup of artists who operate sort of more
in the realm of improvisation or maybe musicians that don't have
quite the same kind of relationship to song craft.
But there is this thread running through the lineup as well of
just like really incredible songwriters.
So I think a part of the reason why this conversation is
convened just to sort of have have a conversation kind of
highlighting some of the songwriting represented on the
lineup. But yeah, to me, I feel like it
also kind of just lends itself to this really interesting
opportunity to think about maybe relationship to genre, which
obviously is contested and complicated thing that we all
sort of know is like a tool of the marketplace.
But also like, I don't know, I while I was listening to both of
your music, I was thinking like SG about how I feel like your
music kind of seems to like have this relationship with tradition
in a way that I think is really cool and then hate it.
And I felt like your music is sort of like almost like
commenting on genre and, you know, interesting way or like
engaging with it as a tool maybe.
So I was just wondering if maybe we could kick things off from
there. If like you could both sort of
reflect a little bit on like, yeah, like where you see the
type of music that you make in this lineup or like your
relationship with the genre as either like a tradition or tool,
or is it an idea that you like think about or reject?
Yeah, You know, I, I, I think something great about Big Ears
is it seems like even with, you know, people who might be
considered more in the traditional vein of
singer-songwriter, I think there's always an element of
left of center quality about the lineup.
Even with the, you know, I guess I would consider myself a
spirit, especially lyrically that I do, especially with my
most recent album Planted by the Signs and a lot of other songs
I've written, I really am into kind of traditional narrative
form. But that doesn't mean that your
music has to do that. You know, I always make the
joke. I did say like country, indie or
whatever. But the truth is, is I don't
really think I have a lot of songs in my entire repertoire
that I would consider, you know, truly country.
But I am from the South and I do have a very thick accent and I
think when I'm speaking with journalists or public facing
that people really can't get over that.
And so even if I came out with the most, you know, crunchy punk
song anybody's ever written, they would call it country.
So it doesn't really matter. Genre is a thing, just like you
said, it is really a tool of the marketplace and it is in a lot
of respects, I think can be a useful tool, but also a really
harmful tool for artists to be pigeonholed in a way or to have
like a little bulletin on top of their record that describes it.
Because a lot of people, I mean, especially country, and I don't
know if you experienced this with describing yours as country
instrumental, but a lot of people, even though it's a very
trendy thing right now, country music isn't something everyone
likes, you know? And so I have a hard time
describing what I do because, yeah, there's always this fear,
like, especially if you say something like Americana, like
what it what is that even? You know, it's such a huge
umbrella, but I, I think I, I don't really care so much about
genre because I do kind of see its limitations not only for the
artist, but especially for the listener.
You know, takes away a lot for people, I think.
Doesn't give them a chance of discovery.
It already colors something. That's what I'll say about that.
Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I think
about this a lot because I feel like kind of what you're saying
is sometimes you can get pegged as country just because where
you happen to be from. And it's like me, it's like I'm
from Amarillo, TX, which is like a place that seems like a very
country place. But for me, like what I was
listening to when I was younger, I didn't really start listening
to country music until I found Terry Allen when I was like 16
or 17. And I mean, and he's a weird
person to even reference his country music because I mean, he
has that famous quote where he was like someone asked him if he
made country music and he said what country and, and laughed
about it. And I think Terry Allen for me
was a perfect example of that of someone from Lubbock, TX, which
wasn't far from me just doing kind of whatever he wanted.
But it's like the John, the genre thing for me is kind of
weird because I, I, I have used, you know, American primitive or
ambient country or things like that to my advantage where I can
recognize that there's an audience to be gained by doing
that, by by being willing to be associated with it.
It's kind of a tough thing because even for me, over the
past few years, it's like I've slowly just started using less
and less pedal steel on my music.
Like, I like the pedal steel, but I even started thinking
about it of like pedal seals, kind of like lobster Mac and
cheese or something of like pedal steel sounds really nice.
It's like putting lobster on something because it tastes
really good. But yeah, the question like, did
does this need lobster on top of it?
And that's not like an insult to pedal steel.
I love pedal steel. But it's it's me trying to
separate myself just a little bit from the country thing.
And, you know, I've had a lot of, you know, music journalists
come up to me saying I was surprised he did that Pitchfork
Perfect 10 on a James Ferraro record.
That doesn't seem like something you would listen to.
And it's like for me, I'm just kind of, well, I didn't really
listen to a lot of country, country music.
And sometimes I think people don't really say I listen to a
lot of experimental music and that's kind of like the world I
came out of. And, you know, sometimes I wear
a cowboy hat and press photos slightly as like satirical also
because I just think it looks cool.
I think it it, it, it looks cool.
And what's funny is this like, I can go to Paris and people think
you're from Texas. You're like a cowboy where I'm
like, you know, if I wear a cowboy hat in Amarillo where I'm
from, I would be made fun of by like actual Cowboys.
Like it would be like really embarrassing to do that.
But I don't know. I think when it comes down to
genre, I think we're in such a post.
Everything age now where you know, I remember when 100 Gecks
came out, I knew it was like all over, like everything's
finished. Like all of these kids are
listening to so much terminally. They're like terminally online
listening to everything. Everyone knows about everything.
There's like 14 year olds listening to Morton Feldman or
something because they're on richer music, which is cool.
But I'm this this will lead to an totally extended rant, but
I'm nervous about this post Everything age of accessibility,
because I was thinking about we're losing regional music
because everyone's so influenced by everything that there's
really, there's no like there's not going to be sacred Harp
music anymore. I mean, it's like Sacred Heart
music is like weirdo basement producer kids.
Like that's, that's like regional music.
It's like some 13 year old kid producing on Fruity Loops in
Baltimore or something, which is cool, but I don't know what I'm
saying. I probably need to stop now.
No, I, I think that makes a lot of sense.
And especially when you're talking about losing, you know,
regional music, it's, it's one thing that I, I tried to pay
attention to or I don't, I don't know if I'd do it super
purposefully, but I think that's like the power.
You know, I have lyrics in my record, so I use a lot of
colloquialisms, you know, things that are very region specific.
But I, I do agree with you. It's like, you know, a lot of
people tried to imitate, you know, certain bluegrass sounds
or whatever, but they do not have like an old time voice or
history with it, you know? And I think that that does come
through sometimes. But yeah, that's, that's
interesting. What you said about it may be
causing an issue with preserving actual regional tradition within
music. That's cool.
Yeah, well, I think like it sounds a bit like I'm
complaining a bit, but I do feel like we are in the Indy twang
epidemic where it's like it it's it's very popular to make like
kind of country adjacent music with.
And you know, sometimes you, you know, like you can take it
personally because you'll see certain people doing it.
It's like you're not even from there.
Like, you know, it's like I feel like I can be kind of a hater
about it, where it's like for me, it's I, I don't, I don't
really have an accent, but sometimes I feel like I'm able
to, you know, it's like I can make fun of the cowboy how to
wear it because at least, you know, like I'm from from that
part of the world. But I can, I can acknowledge
that within the part of the world where I'm from, I'm not
even that, you know, it's just like, you know, I'm just more of
a normal person from, you know, a certain part of Texas.
But I don't know, it's, it's a, it's a weird time for this kind
of music, whatever this kind of music means, I don't know.
Well, I just want to say back to the cowboy hat.
I think everybody should wear cowboy hats because it's just
healthy. It's just healthier for your
skin. And I was like a really pale
person. I think like, you know, we could
really do a lot of healing in our world if we just actually if
everybody just embraced the cowboy hat.
I'll never this world without saying what you.
Mean you kind of touched on this Interesting.
I can't remember the exact phrase you said, but you said
that like twang is having a moment or something like as.
Oh, indie. Twang.
Yeah, Indie Twang is having a moment.
I guess I I would be interested in as musicians here, you know,
from Kentucky, from Texas. Like, what do you what do you
make of this? Why do you think that this is
happening? Well, you know, since my first
record came out that I put out like in, you know, had a label
and things like 2020, which had pedal steel on it, you know,
went through a press cycle and everything.
Everybody was like scratching their head at how to describe
it, whatever. So I was called like indie
country, a lot country, adjacent rock, all that these different
things is twang. And then as the, you know, the
boom as as we're describing of a country, twang or whatever is
coming out. Most recently, I think it was
Brooklyn Vegan. They've always been nice to me,
but it was so funny where I've been called that like Bob
publications like that, possibly even that publication definitely
wasn't mentioned as that, even though I've been described that
way since 2020. And then it took like Patterson
Hood from the drive by truckers to like, say, and actually, this
person is, you know, been doing this for a really long time.
But I just think that's the way. I mean, you know, who fucking
cares? Like it it it does.
You know, who fucking cares about like what's hot?
It always happens. You know, just a few years ago
it was like pretty cool to see a bunch of women in like the sad
girl guitar music scene, you know, like the boy genius stuff
and everything. I mean, when I was like a
teenager or whatever, that was like a really male dominated
field, you know, of your kind of like emotional Moody music kind
of thing. So it's always just flipping and
flopping. And at the end of the day, like
the reason I don't really feel like just dissecting these
moments and these booms, Like, good for you if you're riding
that wave. But at the end of the day, it's
like building community with your fan base that like what you
do. And because, yeah, that's the
only thing that's going to, like, outlive a fad.
That's very, very true. I mean, like, I don't know.
I think the reason why it's like having a moment right now is
just like, I think everyone hears like a Waylon Jennings
record and it's like, wow, this sounds really cool.
And I don't blame people for being like, man, this sounds
like really tight. I want to incorporate this into
my sound. And the pedal still sounds cool.
And you know, everyone wants to be Jason Molina, which I don't
even, I mean, that guy wasn't that Jason Molina wasn't from
the South. Where was he from?
Like Washington or something? I don't actually know his
origin. I mean, I know like he did.
Let's see, what was he on? Like secretly.
Or. Did that, which is out of
Indiana. I think really we're living in a
world where like, you know, we don't trust anything, We don't
believe anything. So hearing something as pure as
a pedal still is about as authentic of a sound and
reaching back to something that you can get almost I mean, other
than maybe, I don't know, I would say like old fiddle music,
all of a sudden you, you get like this little heart tug or
something. So I think it there's like, you
know, there's a shift like everybody was losing their mind
when who was it? Is it Olivia Rodrigo, that
artist, big pop star put like an acoustic guitar in her in her
record and everybody's like guitar is on its way back, you
know, And I I just think it's like a cycle of chasing like a
roar more true to you sound. And I think that when you put
that up against society, it just makes sense.
Yeah. I think it's more like people
are gravitating towards that. That's another reason why, you
know, which, like, definitely not a discussion I think anybody
should have, like, what's real country music?
Who gives a shit? You know, we're kind of past
that now, which is streaming. I think it's about people really
are wanting to grasp onto an authentic identity of some sort
for themselves, you know, I think.
Yeah, still looks like that. And also, let's say, do you play
pedal steel? I don't, no.
Yeah, it's a freaking hard instrument.
If you are good at that, then one, you probably don't have
ADHD because there is a lot to be paying attention to.
You know, it is like a very hard instrument to master.
And the truth is, like I've been around who I would say is
probably the number 2 pedal steel player in all of
Nashville. Which would maybe make him like
the number 2 in like the world, you know, So if people are
really liking like the half assed slides to give a little
mood, that's really cool. Is it, you know, technically are
those players like savants and their instrument?
No, they're not. Because you know, it's it's an
extremely hard instrument to master.
Yeah, I think it's like the the 2 levels are like you're either
red roads or you're like Jerry Garcia.
Like Jerry Garcia like was just like, oh, like I'm not very good
at this, but it sounds cool. And I think the steel is like,
it reminds me of those old like pipe organist for churches that
are like one of five in the world that can play crazy pipe
organ music. It's like if you want to be a
good steel player, you do have to like devote your life just to
that one thing. It's not really meant as a
secondary instrument, but I think it's easy to sound good on
pedal steel, but it's incredibly difficult to be like really,
really good at pedal steel. But pedal steel is a cool
instrument. I've, you know, I've obviously
used it on my on my records. Just to like push on the like
using genre as a tool kind of question one bit further.
You know, Hayden, I was listening to an interview that
you did where you're talking about running for City Council
and you talked about how it kind of like started as a joke and
then it became serious. And I was thinking about that in
relation to this like photo of you kind of dressed as a cowboy.
And I was wondering if, like you thought of it in like a similar
way. Like, is it something that
starts started kind of like being funny and then became like
a more serious embrace? Or do you still kind of like do
you see those in relation to each other at all?
I would say I don't just because the City Council thing, I was a
lot younger when that happened, but that was a thing that
started off as a joke and then became serious were me wearing a
cowboy hat and things like that. I still view it as partially
playing into a character. I mean, I use a lot of kind of
character in my music and you know, it's it's just like I
can't view that as becoming more serious because I don't I don't
wear the cowboy hat out in my like private day-to-day life.
I'll wear it for photos because I like, you know, how a photo
looks. But there's there's so much of
the music for me that is a character.
The thing I take very seriously is like the composition,
recording a record that sounds good, that that's what I take
like really serious. And I mean, it's something
that's always shifting is like recently when I play on stage,
I've been dressing like Jimmy Page.
I wear like bell bottoms and sweater vests and stuff.
And it's just like, I'm not Jimmy Page that that's like the,
the extent of it is I thought it looked cool.
There's like not much logic put behind it.
So it's like outside of, I don't know, it's just like basically
everything I do, be it music or what I wear, is this because
they either think it looks cool or it sounds cool.
And that's about as far as I go with it.
And a lot of the times there's not anything super, super deep
behind it. So I take it very seriously, but
I also treat it like a joke in the sense of like I'm having fun
with it. And there's, there's, there's
not much much behind it outside of just having having some fun,
I guess. I don't like often to ask people
about their album titles because I know as a artist and then you
get asked about a lot, but both of you on your most recent
records, it's like quite clear that the title of your album
also like reveal something about where you come from and just
what's influenced you as songwriters.
So I was wondering if each of you could reflect on, you know,
the title of your most recent record and also kind of what it
says about where you come from. So my album is my most recent
album is called Planting by the Signs, which is this old ancient
belief system that put it really just short it.
It goes back to an old belief where the moon effects water and
a lot of people felt like there was a correlation between
certain moon phases and how the conditions, how that would lend
to different outcomes. So like for instance, planting
crops or say doing tasks like putting shingles on your house.
Like, for instance, you would want to put shingles on your
house when the moon is in a dry sign instead of what is
considered a moist sign. So it can get really kind of
like in the weeds. But one thing I was drawn to
about that was my own experience with it.
I was raised by in the signs and in a more passive way.
It's not like we were gathered at the kitchen table and said
like, all right, well, the moon is in this phase or whatever.
It would just be like your grandma would say you pull a
tooth right now, you're going to bleed a lot because the signs
are in the head. You know, which would be signs
are in Aries. You know, I'm from a very small
town in Western Kentucky and not only like my singing style,
probably, I would say most definitely is a result of the
way people moved across the state.
So are some of the belief systems that people either still
believe or don't believe in my little community.
And I just thought it was, you know, especially in this time I
really focused on the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we
believe in, the stories we let go of.
And to put that into such a old ancient belief system that far
predates like people being or I guess settlers coming to
America. It also just talks about how we
have shifted those old beliefs to fit current narratives, which
is something humans do every day.
And I'll leave it with this. You know, I come from a really
conservative background. And I say this that I'm
definitely probably for the rest of my life, a recovering
Southern Baptist. But, you know, I was raised with
people who doing something like yoga was considered, you know,
not Christian. But, you know, like I just said,
grandma would say signs are in the head, which is a way, you
know, the astrological times are broken up in body parts.
That's a very Pagan belief. But yet this is practiced by
people who are very conservative Christian, and they have really
melded that belief system into their own.
So not going to say you're going to listen up to my record and
come away with that completely, but it could lead you there if
you did do a deep dive into that.
So I thought it was important to continue, you know, the way I've
always written music and something I take very seriously,
which is the South and rural places are complex.
And I feel like it's it's always important for me to continue to
use art as a way to portray that.
Yeah, I know. I think that just come through
and maybe before moving on to asking Hayden this kind of
question, there's a song on your record that, while I was
listening to it, really stuck out to me called I Can See the
Devil. And I felt like that complexity
kind of came through that song. I was wondering if you could
just talk a little bit about what that song is about or what
you were trying to get out with it.
Yeah. Well, you know, like earlier in
the conversation I talked about using colloquialisms.
And in that song it definitely, I would say maybe more than any
other on the record, really paints a picture of how you know
the type of language that I was raised in.
So there is a old belief where if you see the sun coming
through the rain clouds, the sun shining while it's raining, they
would old people would say the devil is beating his wife, which
is a really terrible image, you know.
But it's, and I don't know why this means like seeing something
beautiful from something out of something bad.
But that is the way it's thought about.
And that entire song is about kind of being able to, you know,
kind of using sunshine as like a lot of people do, is like a
positive thing that we're seeing through bad moments or hard
times. But that's an instance where,
you know, I'm using a very specific kind of regional
colloquialism that I think the origins are in.
Like I know the Irish have a saying like that.
And so which would make sense for where I'm from, because
Appalachia moving across to Western Kentucky, like there was
a lot of Irish, Scottish settlers and you know, it, it
allows to talk a little bit about history and yeah, just
throwing some regional colloquialisms in there.
I have another follow up, but I'm going to go to Hayden 1st
and then ask it to both of you. So, Hayden, could you talk about
the title of your record and how it sort of maybe speaks to your
background? Yeah, my new record, it's called
I'll Be Waving As You Drive Away.
It's a title of that episode 2 parter episode of the show
Little House on the Prairie, which I watched that show a lot
as a as a kid. And then I rewatched it again as
an adult and realized how solid of a show it is.
And what's weird is I picked that title just because I find
it so beautiful. I mean, just even if you don't
know the context of the episode, I'll be waving as you drive
away. It's just heavy.
Like people reacted to that title very intensely even before
I explained what that title came from.
But the short version version of the episode is in Little House
in the Prairie, the oldest daughter, Mary Angles begins to
lose her eyesight and she goes blind.
The family sends her to a school for the blind like a stayed over
I believe. And for the two-part episode she
meets one of the the teachers at the school for the blind who's
this guy around the same age as her.
They fall in love. At the end of the two-part
episode, Mary has to go back home to be with her family.
And at the end, in front of the schoolhouse with like, tears in
her eyes, he's saying to her, I'll be waving as you drive away
because they can't see each other.
And every time the end of episode gets me, there's
something insanely gut, gut punching about that.
Even now. It's very touching and sweet.
But what's interesting now looking at it the the appeal to
Little House on the Prairie to me, I've realized has a lot of
similarities with my music. Because I view Little House on
the Prairie is like this Disneyland ride version of the
Western days. Like there's something very like
animatronic robot like this is how it went.
Also, I think people don't realize how insane that show is.
It's a very bizarre show that stands out amongst all other
kind of melodramatic 70s TV because some of the episodes get
really trippy and almost druggy with how like strange it goes
out there. And I think that that's
something I pull from in my own music is there's this Disneyland
animatronic ride version of Amarillo, TX that I like to show
to people. Me and my friend used to have a
joke about the idea of Disneyland opening an Avatar
ride like the the James Cameron movie Avatar, where we said it
would be like Avatar Wild West Saloon, where like the the Navi
characters would be dressed up as Cowboys doing poker or
something like that. I know this doesn't make sense,
but that's the idea of my music is like everything was a
Disneyland ride with like animatronics and it's funny,
terrifying and disturbing. And I think that's what I'm
trying to do with my music. Even with the Little House on
the Prairie record, as I'm pulling your Little House on the
Prairie episode being the title of the record is I'm pulling
from all of these things that are completely absurd like,
well, House on the Prairie is not a good way to show someone
like an accurate representation of that time.
My music is not even a truthful representation of what it's like
to be from Amarillo. I'm telling like this
outlandish, cartoony version of it, even down to the album
cover. And, you know, like my album
covers are weirdly disturbing. I think like, they're very
bright and painted and funny, but there's, you know, a dread
to them. This.
This album ended a trilogy called the Motor Trilogy because
each cover has a vehicle on it. But the second record is me in
front of a Walmart with a burning Nissan behind me.
The first one is me in corpse paint in front of an 18 Wheeler.
And growing up, my dad was a pastor at a truck stop in
Amarillo. The Petro truck stop had a 18
Wheeler that was converted into a church.
So I spent a lot of time out there, but it's like I'm taking
all of these. I'm taking all these references,
putting them together, but I'm making them like a not truthful
telling. It's not supposed to be
truthful. It's funny and disturbing and
it's it's it's my way of like being dishonest.
But when I titled the episode of Little House on the Prairie
title, it's the most honest thing I can tell because it's
something that I still find very sweet and touching.
And for me, when I titled it, I'll be waiting as you drive
away. It's a message to the people
that follow my music. It's a weird way of saying,
like, I wish you well as you go on, you know, on your journey in
life, that's this very dark funhouse.
Like, life is this comical funhouse of, like, atrocities
and warped mirrors. And we're laughing and crying.
And what was weird is this happens every time that I title
a record, and then I find out what the meaning is later.
Like, I just choose a title because it sounds good.
But it's like, I titled the record I'll be waiting as you
drive away. And then weeks before my album
came out, I had to go out to Los Angeles with my parents because
we found out my aunt was dying of cancer.
She'd like hit it, didn't tell anybody and and we had to get
out there and drive her in a rented minivan to Amarillo to be
with my grandmother and family. And she like passed literally
like 2 weeks after we got her home.
It was so weird. And it was like titled the
record I'll be waving as you drive away.
And it was it was intense. I played my album release show
days after she passed and it was just kind of, it's eerie.
You're like, Oh my gosh, like that album titled directly
applied to that situation. I didn't even know it yet.
So it's like something you start off being funny about as a
Avatar Poker Disneyland ride turns into something very
serious and heavy. So I guess that's that's the
reason why I tell myself that as it starts off like that sounds
cool, and then it turns into something that applied to me,
maybe in a way I didn't want it to at the time.
But you realize that that's that's why you make art is it's
a it it represents a period of time in your life and you have
something to attach it to. And it all goes back to Little
House on the Prairie. You know, show that I enjoyed a
lot as a kid and now applies to my life now, I guess.
Something that I'm struck by is that it really seems like you're
both sort of like students of the the subject matter that
you're writing about or it just feels like you must both do a
lot of like reading and taking in of information.
I was wondering if that is true, and if so, if you could tell me
a little bit about like your studies, like the things that
you read and and take in as you're working on music?
Yeah, well, I come from like a philosophy background.
That's what my degree is in. And I've always loved to read,
but also just maybe been in like a major dork, you know?
And and I'm not ashamed of it at all.
I kind of love that about myself.
But this, you know, approaching like planting by the signs,
especially when it comes to my lyrics, I think that you can
really tell when something is forced in pretty much well
anything and but especially when riding.
And so I knew if I wanted to have details about that go back
to the belief system of planning by the sun, then I needed to
just fill up on everything I could get my hands on way before
I actually wrote the songs. So that when it came down, I
wasn't, I didn't have a book cracked in front of me trying to
fit in this particular detail. It was second nature for that to
be in my consciousness, you know?
So I think that's really important for my writing and it
also, you know, I'll say that I've done a lot of manual labor
in my life and I really do well creatively when I have that as
an option. And as touring has become more
and more intense over the years, I mean, I, I tore away too much,
honestly. But it is there's some manual
labor aspects of going on tour, but not really not like what I'm
used to. Not enough to get in that moment
where you're kind of like able to get out of your way in your
head. And so I think, you know,
reading and, and giving myself a subject matter has I've been
able to kind of tap into that a little bit.
So yeah, I'm you pegged me. I'm a reader.
I don't know. Are there any like particular
books or texts that really influenced you while you were
writing this record? Yeah, so there's an old series
called the Foxfire series that are kind of a lot of not only
how TOS as far as as as far as like how to do, you know, kind
of task in like the mountains, like, you know, process a hog or
build a cabin or whatever. But it also has a whole section
on moon planting or planting by the signs.
So that was an interesting text. And there's there's been a few
books about, you know, like the Farmer's Almanac has things
about planting by the signs in every year, but a lot of that
too, because this. Really is a tradition passed
down orally. You know, that's how it still
exists right now. I went and spoke to people who
still practice this and asked them where it's, you know, how
they learned about it. And I even incorporated voice
overs, field recordings into this record because, you know,
the nuts and bolts of the record is, like I said, about the
stories we choose to believe or let go of.
And I think it I really wanted to portray how stories are given
to us as well. You know, we got music and we
have filled recordings of people's actual voices.
So yeah, all those were really important.
And there was, it was a lot of fun.
It was a lot of fun to to do that research.
I well love hearing about the research process that went into
your record. Would love to hear more about
that honestly at some point. But Hayden, could you talk a
little bit about like, you know, are there any literary
influences or books that have informed your work or in
general, like what it what does studies look like for you?
I think this most recent record it it, it might sound kind of
boring, but I felt like the thing I was drawing from so hard
is I was going back to the records in high school that kind
of influenced me so much because I thought those influences have
never failed me. So I was returning to things
like old Genesis records and prog rock albums.
And I wrote the majority of this album during a residency out in
Wyoming. And I was just in in silence.
They they put me in this house kind of out in the middle of
nowhere. And it what was strange is I
remember calling my parents during that residency to write
this record where I said, it's weird.
I've been like crying multiple times and I'm not sure why I was
very confused by because I was by myself in this house and I
realized the silence in this home was so intense that was
flipping me out and I realized I was like, man, like I'm not I'm
not exposed to this level of silence ever.
I think most of us aren't. So I think it's like for me, the
really the only two things I was pulling from when I was writing
this record was the influence of silence during the writing
process. But then I was going back to
things like the lamb was down on Broadway by Genesis, certain
John Fahey records. I mean, but it's like my
influence is when making a record are like really simple.
It's like I watched like American Graffiti again.
Like I watched American Graffiti last year.
I hadn't seen that movie in years.
And I was like, this is the greatest film of all time.
Like I was, I was so enamoured again by American Graffiti.
And it's like when people I was like, what inspired this new
album? I'm like, well, House on the
Prairie, Genesis, American Graffiti, like I think that
might be it, but it it it, it sounds kind of boring because I
don't, I don't have like these deep things.
But again, like I said, it's like a lot of them, the
influences are meaning or things comes like after the record is
done, where am I? Oh man, I didn't even know I
was, I was influenced by that. There was like something that
happened. So you're working in reverse
order or something where it's just like I make the record and
become inspired later, or I figure out what the inspiration
was while I was making it. But I, I was just, I was really
obsessed with like making a record that sounds nice, you
know, it's just like it's, it always goes back to me saying
this sounds cool. It's just like a fight.
If I write something that sounds cool, then I feel good.
Or if I record something and it sounds cool, I try not to really
put too much thought into it. But my whole, I guess process
with everything is when in doubt, always go back to the
things that that worked for you originally.
Like whenever in doubt, I put on the Genesis record and I
remember like, OK, that's like that.
That's the root of every single thing I do comes from the way I
felt when I heard a Genesis record and it worked.
It always works. It's never failed me.
And if there's a day where it doesn't work, I'll quit music
because that means like I've lost all inspiration I guess.
But I don't know. My role is like only be inspired
by like 3 things at once. Otherwise, you know, you drowned
and it's easy for me to drown in inspiration.
There's too much to be inspired by right now.
Which is, which is a good thing artistically.
But yeah, I guess like American graffiti or something.
You, you, you, You brought up this idea of silence.
And I saw like a few things that you posted online about how
there's a lot of silence in your live shows and how, you know,
you feel like maybe one of the reasons why people are drawn to
your music is because it's sort of like a quiet place to get
like some reprieve from like a very noisy world.
Am I getting that like quote right of what you wrote?
Online. Yes, yes.
OK. And I was thinking about it
'cause I was, I was also sort of thinking about it in relation to
this interview with SG that I read where I think it was like
Rolling Stone sort of called you a minister of, of grief.
And I was just thinking about how, like, you know, both of you
seem to have this kind of relationship to maybe like
ritual or creating moments in your music for people to maybe
sit with like harder things. And I don't know, I was kind of
wondering if either of you if that resonated with either of
you or if you saw any kind of commonality there that you'd
want to touch on? I don't know.
I guess I, I guess the root, the root for me, like in the the
silence thing is, I can, I can definitely see it being a ritual
within my shows because I've only been playing live really
since 2023. I was really late to touring.
I like worked normal jobs for a long time and was too scared to
tour. But the very first two I ever
did was opening for Jenny Lewis in 2023.
And those were pretty big rooms. And by the first show in
Chicago, I realized I was in over my head just as a solo
acoustic guitar player playing these, these larger rooms.
But I, I, I realized that silence is like fire.
It's like it, it can be used good, used for good if you know
how to control it a certain way. And so initially I felt like I
was punishing the audience with silence.
Like I would come out and sit in the chair and like sit for 15
seconds before saying anything because people start to pause
and kind of go like, is this guy OK?
Like what's he doing? And over time, I realized with
silence, you can use it in a way of like, I want someone to be
afraid to open their beer. That's the goal.
Because if people know you take pauses in your music, they're so
intentional about when they crack that because they hate to
be the one person doing that. But then over time after using
after using it more in a punisher way, people start to
get accustomed to the silence. And I've, I realized that, you
know, it's like a lot of the times, the only times we like
feel silence in a large group is like in something really
terrible has happened. And if you can find a way to get
a whole audience to be in silence with you for a positive
reason, it can feel intense. And it's still for me feels very
intense when I take these pauses.
A lot of the times I play the theme to Brokeback Mountain Live
when I'm playing my shows and I like it because the pauses are
really excruciatingly long and I have to catch myself because
there's times I've almost speed through them because I get
uncomfortable. But it's kind of like be willing
to take the 10 second pause, like there's a reason for this.
And if you're, if you commit to it, the audience will pick up on
that intention and they'll respond to it.
And over time, I've learned the audiences, at least my audiences
are, are, are far more willing to give than I ever thought they
were. Like they're, they want to be in
silence with you. And there's a power in that.
But I mean, there's a silent grief in that silence, even
amidst the positivity of it all. When you're silent with everyone
you can, you can suddenly feel the weight of what everyone's
caring. You just don't know what it is,
you know? Thank you both for your time.
And this has been, yeah, really cool.
And I'm glad today I have to speak with you both.
So thanks. Thank you.
It was great to meet you all. Yeah, absolutely.
It's so nice to meet you and look forward to hearing your
set. Oh, you child.
Just like a Mama cutie. Big Ears Conversations about
Music is a production of Big Ears Festival.
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. The show's produced by Matt
Marowitz. This episode was edited by
Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder. Ashley Capps is the executive
and artistic director of Big Ears.
Big Ears 2026 will take place March 26th through 29th in 2026
in Knoxville, TN. For more information and
festival updates, visit bigearsfestival.org.
Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those ears wide
open.