1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,680 Welcome to Big Ears conversations about Music. 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:23,820 I'm your host, Sarah Gilletti. Today we turn to the 3 00:00:24,020 --> 00:00:29,460 extraordinary life and legacy of Moon Dog, the blind composer and 4 00:00:29,460 --> 00:00:33,300 poet who transformed the streets of New York into a stage. 5 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:38,380 Known for his Viking helmet and unforgettable presence on 6th 6 00:00:38,380 --> 00:00:41,280 Ave. Moon Dog created music that 7 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,720 blended classical form, jazz, rhythm, and the pulse of the 8 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,160 city itself. Journalist Peter Orloff is 9 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:52,880 joined by Brian Carpenter of the Ghost Train Orchestra and 10 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,240 singer-songwriter Joan Wasser, also known as Joan as 11 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,400 Policewoman to talk about their interpretations of the music of 12 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,840 Moon Dog. Together they reflect on 13 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,960 Moondog's singular vision, his influence on generations of 14 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:12,040 artists, and the joy of bringing his music into the present. 15 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,400 You can see Ghost Train Orchestra play the music of 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:21,640 Moondog at Big Ears Festival March 26th through 29th, 2026. 17 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:30,920 Have a listen. My name is Pyeltodorlov. 18 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,560 I'm a writer, editor, academic. I run a project called Data 19 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,840 Strain, Rhythm Improvisation and Community and local Music in New 20 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:47,480 York City, and I am joined by Joan Wasser and Brian Carpenter. 21 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:55,920 Brian is the leader and arranger of the Ghost Train Orchestra. 22 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,640 In 2023, they recorded a record along with the Cronus Quartet 23 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,120 called Songs and Symphonics, The Music of Moon Dog, on which Joan 24 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:12,080 Wasser, better known folks as Joan as Policewoman, had 25 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,480 contributed vocals. And we are here to talk about 26 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,560 the record, to talk about Moon Dog, to talk about some other 27 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,080 things around the record in Moon Dog. 28 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,280 And I want to thank them both for joining. 29 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,840 Thanks for having us. Fabulous to be here as always. 30 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,560 So, Brian, let's start a little bit with a background on Ghost 31 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,400 Train Orchestra. Even before this Moon Dog 32 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,360 record, it seems like the group's mission has been to 33 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,800 excavate or bring up to date American Music that is old, 34 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,160 forgotten, or in some cases just unknown maverick, maverick 35 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,760 composers or compositions. Is that correct? 36 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,440 Can you give a little bit of a sort of background on yeah, the 37 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:58,560 orchestra? Yeah. 38 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,880 The group formed in 2006 and that was kind of the mission 39 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,000 statement was, you know, finding obscure composers and sort of 40 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,080 reimagining the work. We started with sort of late 41 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,360 1920s, thirties. I had an interest in that at the 42 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:19,240 time and sort of dived into that material for the 1st 10 years of 43 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,920 the band. And then right around 2017, I 44 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:26,680 think I had a conversation with Curtis Hasselbring, our our 45 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,440 trombonist and guitarist. And as you know, we're trying to 46 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,640 think about what to do next. And I mentioned Moon Dog and he 47 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,720 got really excited about that. And, you know, Moon Dog is not 48 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,960 someone who is a household name by any stretch of the 49 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,160 imagination, but he fits into that is kind of the ultimate 50 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,320 outsider artist, you know, and, and, and someone whose, whose 51 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:56,600 work really spans so many different genres and styles. 52 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,440 And it was just, it was just the perfect vehicle for, for the, 53 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,800 for this group. So, you know, that was kind of 54 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,840 right in line with what we had already been doing for the 1st 55 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,040 10 years. So it felt, it felt like a 56 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,360 really good, a good idea to explore. 57 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,040 And you know, there was also no, no group in New York who was 58 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,880 really who was really performing this material, who was really 59 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,360 tackling the, the music of Moon Dog and the the music is so of 60 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,640 New York anyway, that it felt like, well, first of all, it 61 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,360 should be a New York band tackling it. 62 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,520 And 2nd, we, you know, we have all these great writers and 63 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,120 arrangers in the group anyway. So it, it just seemed like a 64 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,520 really good fit. So that was the beginning of, of 65 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,440 the whole thing. And I, yeah, it, it, it 66 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,520 definitely started, You're absolutely right on it just 67 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,000 definitely the whole group started from, you know, finding 68 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:53,960 obscure composers and sort of becoming evangelists for, for 69 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,560 these obscure composers and actually kind of reimagining the 70 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,160 pieces. So they're not, they're not 71 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,400 recreations. They're really, they're really 72 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:08,800 sort of reimaginations and, and in some cases radical 73 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,680 reinventions of the of the pieces. 74 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,840 So you gave a little bit about how you came to the project, but 75 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,440 maybe give a little bit more background on Moon Dog. 76 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,960 You know, he was, he was a maverick. 77 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:31,160 He was a blind composer who was also a street musician. 78 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,560 Give a little bit about that. I know Joan and I spoke and Joan 79 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:41,120 said, I'm not a Moon Dog historian, but yeah, but I want 80 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,120 I want you to give before we jump into this music. 81 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,760 Like how did what was different about this music? 82 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,720 Because because in, in, in he's, he wasn't just a composer, he 83 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,040 was also a songwriter. Right. 84 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,120 Let's assume that people listening to this podcast don't 85 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,720 know who Moon Dog is exactly. And, you know, I think I think 86 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,240 one thing that's that's interesting is he, he was born 87 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,840 in Kansas in 1916. He played musical instruments 88 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,640 from an early age. He lost his sight in an accident 89 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,240 in in when he was 16. He went on to teach himself 90 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:21,160 music and composition by ear, as well as composition books, music 91 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,560 theory books in Braille. And then he got on a bus and 92 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,920 moved to New York. I mean, the story is incredible 93 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,560 and lived and worked on the streets in the 50s and 60s in 94 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,480 New York. And he stood at this corner of 95 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,200 of 54th St. and 6th Ave. and that was the the Moon Dog spot. 96 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,520 And he became sort of a a fixture in New York. 97 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,040 People would go to New York and say they would get in the cab 98 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:46,800 and say take me to Moondog, you know? 99 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,760 He became this according. To his biography, he was maybe 100 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,320 in the mid in the in the late 50s and early 60's the most 101 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,880 photographed person in New York. Wow, that that's incredible. 102 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,520 But you know, so many people that that that saw him. 103 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,120 He was a very striking figure. He had a a long tunic. 104 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,320 He wore a Viking helmet with a spear. 105 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,520 He he created this whole persona for himself. 106 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,680 So many people that passed by him. 107 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,120 Little did they know he was this great composer and he was 108 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,080 writing music as he was standing there on the street. 109 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,400 It with with on index cards and he would take music inspiration 110 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,320 from the street. He would bring in street sounds 111 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,680 into his recordings, subway sounds, taxi, taxi foghorns from 112 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,720 the from the river. And he would pull in classical, 113 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,480 folk, Native American music. He, he pulled in all these 114 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,080 different, all these different styles of music into his very 115 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,520 idiosyncratic, unique vision. And so he became sort of like a 116 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:55,320 godfather to downtown music and and the minimalist movement in 117 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,480 particular. So, yeah, I mean, what a what an 118 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,000 incredible story. But beyond being just one of the 119 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:07,120 most inventive composers of America, 20th century, what an 120 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,360 incredible story. So self-sufficient to be able to 121 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:16,400 live and work on on the streets and and be able to to put out 122 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,160 all these incredible recordings. Like you said, a composer's 123 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,960 composer. He wrote for string quartet, 124 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,200 solo percussion, brass ensemble. He wrote songs. 125 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,040 We found out after he moved to Germany in the 70s, he create 126 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,799 put out this great record called Hard Songs of all these 127 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:36,799 beautiful songs. So yeah, an incredible 128 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,960 inspiration. Joan, tell me about what your 129 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,640 knowledge of Moon Dog was and before you contributed to the To 130 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,280 the Orchestra album. I know you yourself are an 131 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,360 incredible songwriter, but also an incredible interpreter of 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,600 songs and, and, and a lover of songs. 133 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,400 So give me a little bit of your introduction to Moon Dog and and 134 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,960 your affinity for him. Yeah. 135 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,360 So, you know, the lore of, of Moon Dog sort of is, is 136 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,320 certainly present within musicians that are obsessed with 137 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:24,360 anything out of, you know, the, the norm and that, you know, in 138 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,400 New York City, he's like, he is like the godfather or something. 139 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,760 I guess. I mean, I don't remember the 140 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:41,760 first time I came across him. It was probably a visual first 141 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,840 because the visual is so striking and so compelling. 142 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:56,640 And you know, I, I, you know, Hal Welner certainly schooled me 143 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,440 about the, about the basics of, of Moon Dog. 144 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:09,360 And then, you know, he would get played on FMU and like, you 145 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:15,720 know, just like the, the, the radio, the, the independent 146 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,760 radio out of here. And it would always just grab me 147 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:28,600 because I, I particularly love music that has an ostinato 148 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,440 underneath and that, you know, just things sort of happen 149 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,640 across the top. It's, it's, it's so it, it's 150 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,480 just something that goes with my system, my blood or something. 151 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:54,200 So that always stood out to me. And then Maxine Mosten, who I 152 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,720 performed with in what what was when we were playing together 153 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,040 known as Anthony and the Johnsons, now known as Anoni, 154 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:12,640 they contacted me and said, I'm doing this work with Ghost Train 155 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,480 Orchestra and I'm writing these arrangements and I want you to 156 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,400 sing. And I mean, I am. 157 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,160 I live for collaboration. I can't. 158 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:33,880 I am always going to be writing songs by myself in my solitude. 159 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,880 But what I love, what really gets me is collaborating with 160 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,520 with other musicians. It never gets old because 161 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:50,680 there's always things to learn and new ways to approach and 162 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:55,400 hear music. So that was thrilling for me. 163 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,200 And then I'm now I'm just going on. 164 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,480 It's just please stop me. This is way more than Moon Dog I 165 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,480 got. Keep going, keep going. 166 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:10,880 OK, OK, so when I got to the rehearsal of of, of this of this 167 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:17,640 of these of these pieces and met Brian and experience the this 168 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:23,040 Ghost Train orchestra, I was just so blown away by the level 169 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:29,800 of musicianship with, you know, with each individual member of 170 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,880 the orchestra. And then all of the arrangement 171 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,000 capabilities of so many people in the band and the fact that 172 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:45,480 basically everyone in the band, you know, plays a huge variety 173 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:51,160 of styles of music have been schooled and all different kinds 174 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,960 of flavors of music. And, you know, and that just 175 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,240 like brought the just the level of musicianship was so high. 176 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,040 And so I, you know, I was just very thrilled to be to be a 177 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,560 part. Why spend a dark night with you? 178 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:21,720 What a favorite place to pay. So Brian, talk a little bit 179 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,600 about your approach to doing the album. 180 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,600 You know, even though there, you're right that there's not 181 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,480 been New York ensembles who have been doing his repertoire for a 182 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,000 while, there have been others that have tackled his work. 183 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,480 I guess the question is, did you listen to the other albums of 184 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:48,160 Moon Dog Recordings and how did the choices of what music you 185 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,360 were going to feature on the album came about? 186 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,840 Yeah, I mean, we, I think our whole idea was to really show 187 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,520 the breadth of his music. So in other words, if you could 188 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,840 do a record that showed, you know, not only his work for for 189 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,680 orchestra, but also the acapella stuff and also the solar 190 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:16,360 percussion stuff and the songs, this quartet music and somehow 191 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,560 sequence it, which is not easy by the way. 192 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,080 Sequence it in a way that makes it flow. 193 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:29,080 And then, you know, presented in a way that's compelling from a, 194 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,520 from a performance standpoint, that would be really unique. 195 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,360 It would be, first of all, be really super unique. 196 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:42,440 Show #1 and #2 it's, it's a, it's a record that covers a lot 197 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,920 of different styles, which is kind of what my interest is 198 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,520 anyway. And like Joan just said that 199 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,360 there's all this background in the band and everybody has has 200 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,240 played in all kinds of different ensembles, you know, so, so it's 201 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,440 just, it just felt like that was, that was a good fit. 202 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,080 And I didn't hear a lot of there, there have been, there 203 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,920 have been tributes to Moon Dog, but they've been more 204 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,280 recreations, you know, and we didn't really want to do that. 205 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,200 We, we were more interested in kind of like, let's let's, let's 206 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:15,440 play around with the material. So when we brought Joan in and 207 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,680 Joan kind of touched on this a little bit when we so Maxine 208 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:25,720 Mosten, who is one of the string players in the group, I, I, one 209 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,080 of the things I did was the first time, it was basically 210 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,600 farm out the arrangements because there's so much talent 211 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,120 in the group. I didn't want to be the only one 212 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,200 doing it. And then previous orchestra 213 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,960 albums, you were the primary. I was the only one that's right. 214 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,360 I was the only one doing it. I always say we should have, we 215 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,320 should have done this from from day one because it just gives it 216 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,040 gives so much variety to the record. 217 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,080 Plus, everyone in the group then feels like they're part of the 218 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,640 band, and it's a vested interest. 219 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,800 It was a great idea. I mean, and. 220 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,760 And Maxim is just such an incredible musician, you know, 221 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,480 and not just a composer, arranger, violinist, human 222 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,200 being. Yeah. 223 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,920 And. And so bringing him in, you 224 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,240 know, I knew he'd, I'd seen him. I'd seen him with Nancy and the 225 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Johnsons. And I knew I'd also seen his 226 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,920 involvement and Joan's involvement and, and some of the 227 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,280 Hal loaner projects like the, the, the Leonard Cohen tribute, 228 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,000 for example. So when he, he mentioned, you 229 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,640 know, I'm thinking of Joan Wasser for, for these two 230 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,320 pieces, I thought, oh, that's perfect. 231 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,240 I was so, so thrilled, you know, to have her involved. 232 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,440 And so, so that was the really the beginning of bringing in 233 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,600 singers was when Joan came in. Joan was very early on. 234 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,600 She came in very early on at the end of it. 235 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,640 So she was on the very first show that we did live. 236 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,520 And when she came in and sang on those songs, it was like, oh, we 237 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,640 should really, this is so unique, bringing in singers to 238 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,920 this. And so we should, we should open 239 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,200 it up, you know, to, to, to other singers and make it into 240 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,400 like a Hal Wilner kind of thing. You know, where it's like, 241 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,400 let's, let's reimagine all the pieces and let's find let's cast 242 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,720 it as Hal used to do it. Hal is a brilliant casting 243 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,119 director in a way. He would think of a song and 244 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,040 say, what's the right person for this song? 245 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,880 Right. And so that's what I tried to 246 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,040 do. I tried to put the hell winner 247 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,640 hat on and say, OK, there's, I have all this music. 248 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,839 Who is the, who's the best person suited? 249 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,440 And we, I think we kind of knocked it out of the park. 250 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,600 Because if you, if you look at some of the songs and the people 251 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,760 that are singing on those songs, I can't imagine anyone else 252 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,000 singing on on say I'm this, I'm that, for example, Jarvis 253 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,120 Cocker's rendition of that. I mean, he, he's so great for 254 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,520 that because he, I was already a big fan of his from Pulp and he 255 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,120 has this kind of spoken word thing. 256 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,080 And so sort of again, the idea of that, that piece is already 257 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,920 kind of a spoken word piece. Bringing him into that, having 258 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,920 Joan come in on why spend the dark night that that was really, 259 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,040 I think the big, the big inspiration for us was bringing 260 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:08,600 in these, these guests and then with the guest in mind, writing 261 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,560 an arrangement for the guests. So in other words, we, we were 262 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,200 writing pieces based on who the guest was, right. 263 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,720 We didn't write them first and then a sign we write, we wrote 264 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,520 the pieces for the guest. So that was it was more an 265 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,360 inspiration of who's the guest artist and how do we write the 266 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:27,640 piece that would really suit them. 267 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,200 High in a rocky ledge is a good example. 268 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,480 I was a longtime friend with Marissa. 269 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,240 She she's here in Boston and you know, I knew her work. 270 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,800 There's a there's a song of her called a song of hers called 271 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Shadow show Diane that has that same rhythm guitar part. 272 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,080 I talked with the said, why don't we just use that that that 273 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,240 your rhythm guitar part from shadow show Diane and then bring 274 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,440 in Kronos and that will be high in a rocky ledge. 275 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,280 So, so that that was kind of the approach we took. 276 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,600 It was all kind of based around the singers in a way. 277 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:09,600 She. Has a shadow. 278 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,280 One thing that has already come up that we haven't talked about 279 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,440 is the fact that is Cronus Quartet's involvement. 280 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,040 Tell me a little bit about how that came about. 281 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,680 Yeah, well, the the 1st 10 years of of ghost string, we didn't 282 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,760 have a string quartet. We had Mad Swift playing on on 283 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,120 violin, incredible violinist, singer, composer. 284 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720 And what we wanted to do with the Moon Dog record was Moon Dog 285 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,040 had written all these beautiful pieces for string ensemble that 286 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,080 very few people were familiar with. 287 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,040 And so we wanted to. The idea was in terms of how do 288 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,040 we present this as a show, is to present it as a show with just 289 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,800 the quartet opening and then building it. 290 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,840 And so by the time you get to the intermission and the, you 291 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,680 know, you have all 16 people. That in itself is an interesting 292 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,400 thing, that to build an album as a while building a show. 293 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,880 I saw the show at Roulette, so, so I know exactly what you're 294 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,480 talking about, but that that in itself is a tribute album that's 295 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,320 built out of a tribute show is in itself an interesting 296 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,960 proposition. Well, that was of course based 297 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,080 on Stop Making Sense. The whole, the whole model of, 298 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,280 of coming on with just one person and then adding people 299 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,360 and then adding, you know that that that is such a great model 300 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,840 for a show, especially when you have a large ensemble like this. 301 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Why bring everyone out in the beginning? 302 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:42,840 Why? Why not? 303 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,320 Why not build it? It's so much more compelling 304 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:46,960 when you do that. It's like, well, what's going to 305 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,840 happen next? Who's going to show up next on 306 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,120 stage? So we, we need we know we needed 307 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,200 a string quartet. The question is who should the 308 00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,760 string quartet be? And before we found Maxim and 309 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:06,000 our New York string players, we, we thought it'd be, it would be 310 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,080 best to find a quartet that already been playing together 311 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,160 for a long time. And so we said, well, I think 312 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Andy Laster our, our saxophone and said we'll start with 313 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,920 Kronos. They'll say no and then work 314 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,200 down the list. Well, I, I, I contacted Kronos 315 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,120 and they got back to me in 24 hours. 316 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,400 It turns out that David Harrington had met Moon Dog and 317 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:30,760 in fact had commissioned a piece for Moon Dog called Synchrony. 318 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,400 And I didn't know, I didn't know this. 319 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,080 So they got back to me and said David wants to meet you in New 320 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:42,360 York, you know, in 2 days. And so I, I met him and he was, 321 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,880 so we, we already had all the arrangements. 322 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,400 So I was, it was like a silver, I was presenting it on a silver 323 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,320 platter for him. I already had the arrangements I 324 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,400 brought in. I was nervous. 325 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,920 I brought in all the arrangements, all the scores he 326 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,600 didn't even need to look at. He said, yeah, we're, we're 327 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,040 going to, we're doing this because it's something he 328 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,040 already wanted to do. He was already very familiar 329 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,360 with Moon Dog's work. I will say that the, some of the 330 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,400 other core tests we reached out to because I, I sent a bunch of 331 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,120 emails out, half of them didn't even know who Moon Dog was. 332 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,960 Of course, of course David Harrington knows who Moon Dog 333 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,520 is. This guy, he, I mean, he's like 334 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,160 an inside, he's like a Hal 1 or an encyclopedia of, of 335 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,240 knowledge. So, so to have Kronos involved 336 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,560 was just the, I mean, the icing on the cake. 337 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,480 I mean, what a what a thrill, you know, to have this 338 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,200 monumental quartet that has already given us so many 339 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,600 beautiful worlds and then to have them fit into this was just 340 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,080 what, you know, a dream come true. 341 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Absolutely, absolutely. Joan, you have two songs on the 342 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,880 album. Why Spend the Dark Night With 343 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,360 You and All His Loneliness with the Kronos Quartet. 344 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,480 And All His Loneliness is one of the oldest songs in Moon Dogs 345 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,880 catalog, and it's probably one of the most famous, right? 346 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,320 Because Janis Joplin did it in in the 60s with Big Brother. 347 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,320 Whoa. I didn't know that. 348 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,040 Yeah, no, I didn't until I read Robert Scotto's book. 349 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,160 That was, that was, that was, that was completely new to me. 350 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,640 Robert Scotto, who wrote a biography of Moon Dog that was 351 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,160 published a few years ago. Structurally, it's a really, 352 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,400 really simple song, but there's so much depth to it. 353 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,240 It's like a mantra. So can you talk a little bit 354 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,760 about that song from the perspective of both a writer but 355 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,880 also the vantage point of a singer of other people's songs? 356 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,720 A A great interpreter of songs. You know what, when, when, when, 357 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,800 when. Maxim gave you the arrangement. 358 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,480 Like how? How do you approach something 359 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,480 like that? You know, something so simple 360 00:23:52,920 --> 00:24:01,400 that you turn into an epic. I told you I'm going to ask you 361 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,080 about all his loneliness. Oh, yeah, no, it's hard to 362 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,720 answer those questions because I, I think I, I usually try to 363 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:17,040 not think very much and try to just really listen to the music 364 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,040 and allow what happens to happen. 365 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:31,680 And this piece for me, it's, it just feels like it was written 366 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,640 for me. I know that Max said, I wrote it 367 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:43,440 for you, but you know, it, it's it, it, it just immediately 368 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:53,480 resonated for me. And I, I, I did my best to not 369 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,840 think at all and just allow it to, to happen. 370 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:05,160 And you know, when, when, when I'm able to do that because I'm 371 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,120 not always able to do that. I mean, it happens, I don't want 372 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:13,760 to say rarely, but it's it's it's not a it doesn't happen all 373 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,640 the time. I feel like then I'm it, it's 374 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,720 pop, you know, it, it feels like the, the stream is the stream is 375 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,360 moving. And if I can just effortlessly 376 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:37,520 slip into that stream along with its movement, I will be able to 377 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:43,320 create the most potent moment with the rest of the players. 378 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:51,520 And I feel like the way the song itself and then the way Max 379 00:25:51,560 --> 00:26:00,280 arranged it, he really supplied the easiest route for me to just 380 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:06,520 slip into that moving stream. I don't know what else to say. 381 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,440 The song says it says it all in the words. 382 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:23,440 And I think it's, it's a, it's a feeling we've all had and you 383 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:31,520 don't really need to say much. Is that a, as a songwriter, is 384 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,960 that a thing you write a lot of different kinds of song as a 385 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,680 songwriter. Is that a thing that you aspire 386 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,440 to at times? And is there a way to get into 387 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,080 the headspace to be able to? Because it's, it's like first 388 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,360 time I heard it. It's like, wow, it's universal. 389 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,880 And that's what I meant by it's like a mantra. 390 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,960 It's like so many you said, it's a it's a feeling we all as 391 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,800 listeners, as singers, as you know, feeling humans in the 392 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,080 world hopefully all come to at some point. 393 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,480 Hopefully. Is that is that? 394 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,480 Is that something that you can put yourself in a mindset as a 395 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,960 songwriter to try to reach that plate? 396 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,480 Does that question make sense? Yeah, yeah. 397 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:22,320 The I am always trying to get there, you know, in my own 398 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,680 writing. I mean, it's it, it that's also, 399 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:31,640 I think why it resonates so much for me is that it's something 400 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,200 that I, I look for when I'm writing myself is and, and 401 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,840 again, I know it sounds, it sounds like I, I, I don't know 402 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,920 what it sounds like. I try, I try to, you know, when 403 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,960 I find myself thinking too much about, oh, it should go like, 404 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:53,680 no, it shouldn't go like anything. 405 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,200 It should just, if I can like empty my mind and just start 406 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,920 playing and if I get something going, a simple thing going that 407 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,160 feels good, everything will follow. 408 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:19,640 And you know, yeah, it's, it's it's not, it's hard to it's hard 409 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,280 to really put into words other than thinking doesn't work and 410 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:30,720 allowing is, is, is the thing. I'm always sort of looking for. 411 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,600 Brian, I want to bring you in on this because I think that like 412 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,880 one of the things that Joan is talking about is kind of one of 413 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,280 the things that makes Moon Dog special, right? 414 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,480 Is there is this this simplicity that there's there's almost a 415 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,200 Zen aspect to it. You know, there's a, there's a 416 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,920 song on the album called Enough about Human, right? 417 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,080 That is really I, it was, this was the first time I'd heard it. 418 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,320 I went back to listen to it on Heart Songs, the album that he 419 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,600 released in Germany. And it's actually, it almost 420 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,440 feels like a children's song, right? 421 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Like this idea of simplicity. Can you talk a little bit about 422 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,880 the simplicity and complexity of Moon Dog and how you all 423 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,560 interpret it a little. Yeah, Yeah. 424 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,160 Well, I do want to mention, just pick up on what Joan was saying 425 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,560 about about all his loneliness. You know, we we've typically 426 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,560 done this in two sets and we we have her all his loneliness is 427 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,800 the last piece of the of the first set. 428 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,200 And because you can't follow it, it's not a piece that you it 429 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,960 doesn't make sense to have anything really. 430 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,440 You need sort of a a breath after it because I mean, her 431 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,200 perform your performance on that is so incredible. 432 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,080 And every time we've done it, you could hear a pin drop at the 433 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,280 end of the piece. I mean, it's the combination of 434 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,040 Jones performance and Max's arrangement and Cronus's 435 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,720 performance and and it's just it's just an incredible piece of 436 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,000 music. And, and so I think, I think 437 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,200 that and, and again, I, I totally get what you're saying. 438 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,360 It's more of a feel thing. You don't want to be coming and 439 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,320 thinking, OK, 54, I got to come in on this measure. 440 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,000 I mean, the way I'm, when I'm, I'm in the audience, by the way, 441 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,360 at this point, I'm out there. So the way the, the, the, the 442 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,920 show works is I come around because I don't, I don't 443 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,760 actually show up until sort of halfway through the first set. 444 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,640 And then I'm just, I just enjoy it as an audience. 445 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,920 And then I have to come in, in the second set as part of the 446 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,520 orchestra, right? But I get to be in the audience 447 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,360 and watch this whole thing go down and it's an amazing thing 448 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:03,000 to see Joan just come in and sort of seamlessly fit into 449 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,640 this, this world and this this whole orchestration thing as if 450 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320 she's another instrument. It, it's just an incredible, 451 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,520 incredible way to end that first set. 452 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,840 It's, it's an also, it's a, it's a piece like no other piece that 453 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,160 he's written and it's a piece like no other piece in the set. 454 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,800 So it's a very special to me, that's a very special moment in 455 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760 the on the recording and on the and on the show. 456 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,680 By the way, that's the also the reason why it's the last track 457 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,200 on the record, because it's such a powerful performance. 458 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,640 It's to me, it's difficult to follow that. 459 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaking up on what you said about complexity and simplicity, 460 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,000 to me, the the interest that you keep saying simplicity, but the 461 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,320 fact of the matter is it's deceptively simple, right? 462 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,840 There's a lot of complexity thing about Moon Dog is you've 463 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,600 got all this complexity in the rhythm and the time signatures. 464 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,400 But as Joan was just talking about, you're, you've got these 465 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,360 beautiful melodies soaring over. That's his signature, right? 466 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,080 If you look at all the music that he's done, it's complex 467 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,840 rhythms and then beautiful melodies soaring over that. 468 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,080 That kind of might be the the, the thing that ties it all 469 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,080 together. But I think, I think if you, if 470 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,080 you look, take it, take a piece like why spend a dark night with 471 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,040 you, for example, I think that might be in 5-8 or five, four or 472 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,040 something like that. Very few people can do that. 473 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,640 Joan is one of the few people who can, who can come and do 474 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,040 that. Maybe it's your, you know, you, 475 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,960 you, you started training. We talked about this before Joan 476 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,280 and I both started on, I started on trumpet. 477 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,360 Joan started on violin before we started singing. 478 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,120 Maybe it's that and she could subdivide it in her head. 479 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760 But if you listen to that track, you try to sing to it, it's 480 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,400 almost impossible to try to to try to find the one. 481 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,840 Even for me on stage, it's pretty scary because it's really 482 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,920 it's really hard to hear the one and and but The thing is, if 483 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,600 you're listening to the recording it, it just sounds. 484 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,280 It's this. There's a simplicity to it, 485 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,280 right? That's that's the interesting 486 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,240 thing is like he made it sound so simple, but when you're 487 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,280 actually sitting down trying to perform it, it's really, really 488 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,040 difficult. That piece be a hobo. 489 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,440 A few of the others as well. So yeah, you're, you're on to 490 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,520 something there. That, that, that juxtaposition 491 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,400 of of the complex rhythms, but these beautiful, very catchy 492 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,360 melodies that he writes. That's what's so interesting 493 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,840 about his stuff, right? Yeah, I mean, that's one of the 494 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,200 things. There's so much that as I was 495 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,480 preparing for our conversation and reading Robert Scotto's 496 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,400 book, I've been listening to and writing about Arthur Russell for 497 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,000 at this point 25 years. And the, the things kept coming 498 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,160 together and this you call them the godfather of minimum of New 499 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400 York minimalism. You know, until I saw in Robert 500 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,960 Scotto's in I think the latest edition of Robert Scotto's book, 501 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,240 Philip Glass does the the introduction because Philip 502 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,440 Glass and his wife harbored moon dog for like a year, year and a 503 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,040 half. This, this idea of how, you 504 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,040 know, this person for whom when people think of New York 505 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,800 minimalism, people think of complexity. 506 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,199 And so when Moon Dogs, when Arthur Russell's music kind of 507 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,239 became, started coming back into the slipstream, people were 508 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,760 like, oh, this person who was an avant-garde cello player, made 509 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,840 disco and wrote pop songs and the same thing and also came 510 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,600 from the Midwest, from Iowa, you know, and same with Moon Dog. 511 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,199 There's, there's, there's a, there's a thing there that I, I 512 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:52,400 believe that is a, is a similarity, you know, just both 513 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,679 in terms of a personal history, the outsiderness. 514 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,840 But part of the thing about the outsiderness is the fact that 515 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,360 they really wanted to appeal to audiences, for people to listen 516 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,760 to this thing and not be making art in their own. 517 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,800 Even though they were making art in seclusion very, very often, 518 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,280 they were also looking for audiences. 519 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,240 Moon Dog had to rely on audiences to feed himself. 520 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:21,080 Literally. As a busker on the corner of 6th 521 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,240 Ave. and 53rd and 54th. Right, Sorry. 522 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,520 Yeah, yeah. No, the thing I, I, I, I so 523 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,560 agree with you. Those those two dudes really are 524 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,680 connected. I feel like both of them use, 525 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,640 you know, odd meter to really make you feel like you're 526 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:56,040 floating. Both of the songs I I I sing on 527 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,080 the record. Why spend a dark night in both 528 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,160 of them are in five. One of them's in a super slow 529 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,200 fight. One of them's in a extremely 530 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,200 fast five and five is, you know, it's just, it's a feeling that 531 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,080 we're, it's just a float. It's a floating thing. 532 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,280 And Arthur Russell did that too. Also, I, I, I feel like both of 533 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:26,120 them talk about, they, they, they talk about just daily life, 534 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,840 daily events, you know, in a way. 535 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,960 It's not like I'm going to write a song about love now. 536 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,120 It's like, no, I'm going to, I'm, you know, I'm going to 537 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,600 really give you impressions of what's happening right now in my 538 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,080 world. And that's going to really make 539 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:53,920 you feel part of the music and part of their worlds. 540 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,080 I feel like with both of them, they're like, oh, come join me 541 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:07,000 in my world that is not the world that we usually hear on on 542 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,240 the radio or whatever. Totally, Yeah, Yeah, yeah. 543 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,400 I, I, I love that you brought up Arthur Russell, because I'm a 544 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:14,840 huge Arthur Russell fan. I know. 545 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,480 I know Joan is too. But there's a record. 546 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,920 I mentioned Hard Songs, Right? That's the Moon Dog record. 547 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,800 Until Hard Songs came out, I don't know if people really knew 548 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,880 that Moon Dog was this really cool songwriter, like High on a 549 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,120 Rocky ledge. What a beautiful song. 550 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,800 I mean, my God, I mean, that's that's just got to be one of the 551 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,960 most beautiful pieces. But look at Arthur Russell. 552 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,640 There's a record that came out called Iowa Dream, and I think 553 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,920 it was a posthumous release that now I didn't. 554 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,000 I know Arthur Russell is a cellist composer, you know, the 555 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,640 disco stuff. But until that record came out. 556 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,720 So for people who don't know that record, it's him on solo 557 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:55,880 guitar and piano. That's it. 558 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,840 And it's amazed. Beautiful songs. 559 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,560 All of a sudden you this record comes out, it's like, Oh my God, 560 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,440 this guy is writing in. He's an incredible songwriter. 561 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,200 Just stripped away, stripped away everything else. 562 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:13,360 And this came out of the blue. So it there's a lot of 563 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,360 similarity here between these two, these two composers, right? 564 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,360 I mean, these two guys, they're songwriters. 565 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,640 Composers refuse to be pigeonholed. 566 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,240 That's the other thing. Uncategorizable. 567 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,520 Yeah. I mean, really, Yeah. 568 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120 That's a great a great comparison that you made. 569 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,520 I want to ask about one song that is not on the record 570 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,760 because it's I think besides All Is Loneliness. 571 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:43,520 It's probably Moon Dog's most famous composition, partly 572 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,680 because it was sampled and turned into a dance hit, which 573 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,920 is Bird's lament. Any reason it didn't make it? 574 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,080 Or is that on the next volume? It's yeah, we, we recorded so 575 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,960 much material. I think we have like two or 576 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,200 three volumes worth of stuff. We were, we perform it as part 577 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,640 of our performance and we did record it. 578 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,720 It just didn't fit into the sequence. 579 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,040 I said before, like the sequencing is so tricky on a 580 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,080 record like this because as you know, as we just talked about, 581 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,280 there's so many styles. So, so yeah, I think that's 582 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,280 going to make it. I think it's a great it's, it's 583 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:35,200 one of his great pieces. So in the liner notes, I said we 584 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:41,080 would come back to Hal and I, I was reading the liners and 585 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,360 there's a great conversation in the liner notes for those who 586 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,040 will go and pick up this a physical copy or a band camp 587 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,200 copy of this record between Brian David Harrington of the 588 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,240 Cronus Quartet and Irwin Shusett, whose name might be 589 00:39:56,240 --> 00:40:01,000 familiar to definitely people who listen to something called 590 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,400 the Big Ears podcast. He's he's an author radio DJ. 591 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,320 He calls himself a landmark preservationist of left field 592 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,840 music. And he now overseas the Sun Raw 593 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,920 Archive or one of the major Sun Raw Archive. 594 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,920 And the late producer Hal Welner's name gets mentioned as 595 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,040 someone whose spirit is on the album. 596 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,800 The album is dedicated to him and you've already heard Brian 597 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:34,440 and Joan mention his name. I feel like Hal's spirit is 598 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,160 obviously present here and I feel like Hal's name does not 599 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:45,640 get mentioned enough. Brian, you brought him up as an 600 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,480 inspiration to this record. Joan, you and I have had 601 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,240 conversations previously about Hal's importance. 602 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,360 Can both of you just give a sense of, first of all, who Hal 603 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:02,040 Wilner was and why his spirit is present on a record like this? 604 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,720 John, you want to? Start sure I mean, Hal Wilner 605 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:17,920 was the center of New York City music. 606 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:29,840 He was connected, hit the amount of tendrils he had out into 607 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:43,480 every different kind of music and across decades of of music 608 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,800 and, and and so much, I don't know how what to say. 609 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:54,600 So much music that maybe not everyone had heard was just 610 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,840 gigantic. It was it was more than I think 611 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:05,280 anyone could ever really fit into one's brain. 612 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:22,480 And you know, he had an an uncanny ability to put musicians 613 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,680 together that you would not imagine together, to create 614 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:36,600 something just fantastic and magical. 615 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:49,640 And he delighted in that idea that through music we find new 616 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:57,600 ways to create when we go outside of our group of people, 617 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,920 our genre, our age group, our etcetera. 618 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,640 You know, he did that show. Oh God, I always want to call it 619 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,320 Night Moves and it's absolutely not called that. 620 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:18,000 Night Music. Night music yeah, where he did 621 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:25,600 that as a as ATV program. And I mean, if you want to see 622 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,480 the representation of what I just said in incredible musical, 623 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,480 you know, in in in, you can see it all there. 624 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:41,200 It's it's there's just an amazing performances and just 625 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:50,800 wildness and weirdness and genius and just fun, fun. 626 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,400 And he always stayed behind the scenes. 627 00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,840 He, he, he really loved people putting people together and then 628 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:07,840 taking off and it that's a unique quality. 629 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:14,800 But that was really him. And I think the fact that he did 630 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:22,880 have that everybody that knows them just has so much love, 631 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:30,000 respect, honor for him because he was so respectful of of 632 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,800 everyone and their musical talents and ability and openness 633 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:46,240 to try something new. So yeah, that's I think I did 634 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,800 it. Yeah, I, I love that. 635 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,480 I mean, I, you know, Joan, Joan and Hal were super close. 636 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,080 I only met Hal once and it was right before the pandemic. 637 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,080 I was, he had a he had a office next to John Kilgore and that's 638 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,320 where we mixed one of the Kronos records before this. 639 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,040 And he stopped by and I got to meet him and mention this 640 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,520 record. So we were working on this 641 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,800 record and some of his staff had gone to see us, I think at LPR. 642 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,840 And he said, yeah, I heard, I heard there was a Moon Dog show. 643 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,000 And, and so I was telling him about the record and, and there 644 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,640 was something that he wanted to do. 645 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,120 And he, he had actually talked to David Harrington about, I 646 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,520 think they had talked about maybe doing something along 647 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,080 these lines. He, Hal's just so many ideas, 648 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,480 right? He's probably got, there's 649 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,200 probably A50 ideas he didn't get to, but but what a treat. 650 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,120 And what an encyclopedia of knowledge and encyclopedia of 651 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,400 music. You know, we were there 652 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,880 listening to this Pete Seeger record I worked on called Long 653 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,240 Time Passing. And he had all these stories 654 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:57,080 about, about, you know, Pete Seeger and, and he even had a 655 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,960 little Pete Seeger doll. He had a little, he had a little 656 00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,160 office down the hall, all these little dolls. 657 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,480 And. And this is sort of like a 658 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,240 curiosity shop. Yeah, what a what an incredible 659 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:09,960 inspiration. We, by the way, we dedicate the 660 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,640 record to him. So for people who who aren't 661 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,960 familiar with Hal Willner, you know, go look up his, his 662 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,120 records, you know, his, it's an incredible body of work. 663 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,640 It really. Is for for, for the listeners 664 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,080 who who are new to his name. He was one of the first, if not 665 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,280 the first musical directors of Saturday Night Live. 666 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:39,200 And then his career grew from there having having Sun Rod do 667 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,840 Disney tunes, having Keith Richards do Charles Mingus tune 668 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,640 to Yeah, no, he. It just puts a smile on your 669 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,800 face just hearing you say that. It's like, when are they going 670 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,280 to put out they should put out a Blu-ray night music. 671 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,640 You know, I don't know who who who owns those those archives, 672 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,080 but the night night music, you know, it's like Christian 673 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,000 Marklay and and like you said, Nick Cave singing with Charlie 674 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,720 Hayden and you know, it's just these crazy combinations. 675 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,840 I would love to see like a a Blu-ray night music come out. 676 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,560 You know, I'd be the first in line to buy that. 677 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,560 Just from a licensing standpoint, I can only imagine 678 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,080 the nightmare, right? Probably not going to happen, 679 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:35,400 but yeah, a man can dream where? You going will that gun in your 680 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,440 hand? Here's a question, Ryan. 681 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:45,880 What do you think of yourself? Like what, what, how do you 682 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,600 define yourself in terms of both your what you do in Ghost Train 683 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:51,920 Orchestra? Do you think of yourself 684 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:57,000 primarily as a musician, as a musicologist, as a historian? 685 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,480 Like, how does your practice all come together? 686 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,320 Because we're here and here seeing what you've done. 687 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,840 I know that you've also produced radio shows about about 688 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,400 composers. Like how does your practice come 689 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,880 together? Well, I'm a musician first and 690 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:18,000 I, I love history also, but when I, I, I should go back to the 691 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,200 very beginning of this project, when I the way, the way I found 692 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,320 out about Moon Dog was through a mutual friend of Joan and me 693 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,240 named Bryce Gog. And he's an engineer in New 694 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,880 York, and I was working. I know I was a producer. 695 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,880 Yeah, and I know, I know him through, I was working on a 696 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,680 project called The Confessions where I just, I'd write songs 697 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:39,040 and I and sing. So I, I play keyboard and guitar 698 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,400 and sing in that band. And I was working with him on 699 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,280 that project right around 2006. I was working with him and I, I 700 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,080 told him I'm, I'm working on this. 701 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,160 I have this new band called Ghost Train Orchestra. 702 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:52,960 And here's what we're kind of thinking of doing. 703 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,840 Well, he wrote me this one line e-mail. 704 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,960 Have you ever heard of Moon Dog? This is like probably 20 years 705 00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:01,920 ago, right? I hadn't heard of him. 706 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:07,080 And that's that's how I found out about about Moon Dog was 707 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,640 through Bryce. But I'm not answering your 708 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,560 question in in general. I'm just what I'm trying to say 709 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,920 is I'm interested in a lot of different things, but I I, I'm a 710 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:21,360 musician first. And you know, I think I think 711 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:26,240 you know, this just being able to work with all these 712 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:30,320 incredible musicians in this group and what they brought to 713 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,080 the table to this record, I think is just and incredible. 714 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,680 Take take for example, Matt Bowder's arrangement of enough 715 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,160 about human rights. You brought that up. 716 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,160 The original is solo piano and voice. 717 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,120 Listen to the recording. Matt took that and exploded it 718 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,080 into 15 piece orchestra with Karen Mandler singing and 719 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,440 playing harmonica. Incredible right to from, from 720 00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,160 an, from a solo piano piece to an orchestral piece. 721 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,240 And now you're with the with his arrangement. 722 00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,400 Now you're hearing all the richness and the harmonic 723 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,840 richness of what was originally in, in the, in this, in this. 724 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,640 I like, I like Matt's version better. 725 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,160 It's just more of an aesthetic preference. 726 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,200 It's not that it's better or worse, but that's just one 727 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,480 example. And then you take Max's 728 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,640 incredible arrangements that he wrote for Joan and everybody 729 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,680 else. I mean, it is just a real, it's 730 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,480 a real thrill to to play in this group because everybody's bring, 731 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,080 everybody's bringing their A game. 732 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,400 And it's just there's this healthy competition that 733 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,200 happens. You know, it's like, wow, that 734 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,560 I, yeah, how am I going to live up to that? 735 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,720 You know? So, so yeah, it's it's it's a 736 00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:44,360 real thrill to play in a group like this. 737 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:45,920 But. But I think what's interesting 738 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,160 about this project is I'm really kind of spinning plates up there 739 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,400 in the show because I'm playing trumpet. 740 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,320 I'm kind of conducting on one, I'm arranging, you know, I'm, 741 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,320 I'm producing it. So I'm kind of, I'm kind of 742 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,040 wearing a lot of hats on this, on this particular project. 743 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,960 But you know, that's, that's been really fun to do. 744 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,800 I mean, when you're working with this caliber of, of, of 745 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,320 musicianship, it's just a, it's a treat. 746 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,760 You know, it's not a, it's not a stressful thing. 747 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,320 It's a treat. Right on. 748 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:24,640 Well, last question, what's next our is the Ghost Train Orchestra 749 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,680 and all the singers you're are, is the tour continuing? 750 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,880 Are you doing more of the Moon Dog shows? 751 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,520 Is there another Moon Dog volume? 752 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,480 Is there another project on the way? 753 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:39,680 Yeah, there's another volume. We're obviously we're performing 754 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,160 at Big years. That's why we're doing this 755 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,280 podcast. So we're bringing, we're 756 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,000 bringing this show to Big Years, which I'm really excited about. 757 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,760 Ashley was at our our Town Hall show and loved it. 758 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:55,480 I mean it, it's so, it's so, it's so perfect for Big Ears in 759 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,520 a way, because of all the different styles. 760 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:04,880 And Ashley has such an incredible love of all music, 761 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,640 you know, And you, that's that's why Big Ears is my favorite 762 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,800 festival because I can go there. I love all music too. 763 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,800 I love all the genres and to be able to go there and just 764 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,720 experience all these different genres and then see all your is. 765 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,400 There's a community aspect to it too, so you know this. 766 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,120 This project best festival ever. Totally. 767 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,360 Truly best festival in the United States and Navy in the 768 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,640 world forever. OK, bye. 769 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,680 I I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to disagree. 770 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,600 With that right, I, I, I've, I've told them it, it's, it's 771 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,600 the gold standard as well. Absolutely. 772 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,320 John yeah, you're obviously going to be on stage with the 773 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,480 The Ghost Train Orchestra. What do you got going on? 774 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,560 Separate from this, like what do I, what is going on? 775 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:55,040 You know, I, I just got back from like 9 months touring with 776 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,200 Jonas Policewoman. I do another tour in the end of 777 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,680 November. I also now tour with Iggy Pop 778 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,960 playing keys and singing. So I'm going to South America 779 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,880 with him in a couple days and then we're doing actually some 780 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:19,240 Northeast US shows and then I I tour and make music for at with 781 00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:23,760 Africa Express just did a bunch of shows with them. 782 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,760 We're doing a show in Mexico City in the end of October. 783 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:38,280 And you know, I am a serial collaborist, new word of 784 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:45,400 collaborator. And so, you know, I doing, doing 785 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:51,480 this kind of project, the, the moon dog ghost train projects, 786 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,280 the Africa express project with like just a variety of musicians 787 00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:01,880 from all over with all different backgrounds and styles. 788 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,640 It's, it's my favorite thing. It, it feels like honestly, the 789 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:13,600 way the world could be, you know, it feels like, well, we 790 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:20,040 can get along here, can't we? Then, you know, we can expand 791 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,520 that. And I think the more people that 792 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:30,880 see people from different places successfully making music 793 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,800 together is it's just a, it's a, it's a hope for the future. 794 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,240 Again, Brian, Joan, thank you so, so much. 795 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:45,920 Thank you. Great. 796 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,280 Great questions, great conversation. 797 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:55,800 Thank you. I'm in the world very young and. 798 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,720 Old. Big Years Conversations about 799 00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:05,240 Music is a production of Big Years Festival. 800 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,480 I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. The show is produced by Matt 801 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,800 Marowitz. This episode was edited by 802 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,120 Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder. Ashley Capps is the executive 803 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,960 and artistic director of Big Ears. 804 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,880 Big Ears 2026 will take place March 26th through 29th, 2026 in 805 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,120 Knoxville, TN. For more information and 806 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,360 festival updates, visit bigearsfestival.org. 807 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,520 Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those ears wide 808 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:35,880 open.