Welcome to Big Ears conversations about Music.
I'm your host, Sarah Gilletti. Today we turn to the
extraordinary life and legacy of Moon Dog, the blind composer and
poet who transformed the streets of New York into a stage.
Known for his Viking helmet and unforgettable presence on 6th
Ave. Moon Dog created music that
blended classical form, jazz, rhythm, and the pulse of the
city itself. Journalist Peter Orloff is
joined by Brian Carpenter of the Ghost Train Orchestra and
singer-songwriter Joan Wasser, also known as Joan as
Policewoman to talk about their interpretations of the music of
Moon Dog. Together they reflect on
Moondog's singular vision, his influence on generations of
artists, and the joy of bringing his music into the present.
You can see Ghost Train Orchestra play the music of
Moondog at Big Ears Festival March 26th through 29th, 2026.
Have a listen. My name is Pyeltodorlov.
I'm a writer, editor, academic. I run a project called Data
Strain, Rhythm Improvisation and Community and local Music in New
York City, and I am joined by Joan Wasser and Brian Carpenter.
Brian is the leader and arranger of the Ghost Train Orchestra.
In 2023, they recorded a record along with the Cronus Quartet
called Songs and Symphonics, The Music of Moon Dog, on which Joan
Wasser, better known folks as Joan as Policewoman, had
contributed vocals. And we are here to talk about
the record, to talk about Moon Dog, to talk about some other
things around the record in Moon Dog.
And I want to thank them both for joining.
Thanks for having us. Fabulous to be here as always.
So, Brian, let's start a little bit with a background on Ghost
Train Orchestra. Even before this Moon Dog
record, it seems like the group's mission has been to
excavate or bring up to date American Music that is old,
forgotten, or in some cases just unknown maverick, maverick
composers or compositions. Is that correct?
Can you give a little bit of a sort of background on yeah, the
orchestra? Yeah.
The group formed in 2006 and that was kind of the mission
statement was, you know, finding obscure composers and sort of
reimagining the work. We started with sort of late
1920s, thirties. I had an interest in that at the
time and sort of dived into that material for the 1st 10 years of
the band. And then right around 2017, I
think I had a conversation with Curtis Hasselbring, our our
trombonist and guitarist. And as you know, we're trying to
think about what to do next. And I mentioned Moon Dog and he
got really excited about that. And, you know, Moon Dog is not
someone who is a household name by any stretch of the
imagination, but he fits into that is kind of the ultimate
outsider artist, you know, and, and, and someone whose, whose
work really spans so many different genres and styles.
And it was just, it was just the perfect vehicle for, for the,
for this group. So, you know, that was kind of
right in line with what we had already been doing for the 1st
10 years. So it felt, it felt like a
really good, a good idea to explore.
And you know, there was also no, no group in New York who was
really who was really performing this material, who was really
tackling the, the music of Moon Dog and the the music is so of
New York anyway, that it felt like, well, first of all, it
should be a New York band tackling it.
And 2nd, we, you know, we have all these great writers and
arrangers in the group anyway. So it, it just seemed like a
really good fit. So that was the beginning of, of
the whole thing. And I, yeah, it, it, it
definitely started, You're absolutely right on it just
definitely the whole group started from, you know, finding
obscure composers and sort of becoming evangelists for, for
these obscure composers and actually kind of reimagining the
pieces. So they're not, they're not
recreations. They're really, they're really
sort of reimaginations and, and in some cases radical
reinventions of the of the pieces.
So you gave a little bit about how you came to the project, but
maybe give a little bit more background on Moon Dog.
You know, he was, he was a maverick.
He was a blind composer who was also a street musician.
Give a little bit about that. I know Joan and I spoke and Joan
said, I'm not a Moon Dog historian, but yeah, but I want
I want you to give before we jump into this music.
Like how did what was different about this music?
Because because in, in, in he's, he wasn't just a composer, he
was also a songwriter. Right.
Let's assume that people listening to this podcast don't
know who Moon Dog is exactly. And, you know, I think I think
one thing that's that's interesting is he, he was born
in Kansas in 1916. He played musical instruments
from an early age. He lost his sight in an accident
in in when he was 16. He went on to teach himself
music and composition by ear, as well as composition books, music
theory books in Braille. And then he got on a bus and
moved to New York. I mean, the story is incredible
and lived and worked on the streets in the 50s and 60s in
New York. And he stood at this corner of
of 54th St. and 6th Ave. and that was the the Moon Dog spot.
And he became sort of a a fixture in New York.
People would go to New York and say they would get in the cab
and say take me to Moondog, you know?
He became this according. To his biography, he was maybe
in the mid in the in the late 50s and early 60's the most
photographed person in New York. Wow, that that's incredible.
But you know, so many people that that that saw him.
He was a very striking figure. He had a a long tunic.
He wore a Viking helmet with a spear.
He he created this whole persona for himself.
So many people that passed by him.
Little did they know he was this great composer and he was
writing music as he was standing there on the street.
It with with on index cards and he would take music inspiration
from the street. He would bring in street sounds
into his recordings, subway sounds, taxi, taxi foghorns from
the from the river. And he would pull in classical,
folk, Native American music. He, he pulled in all these
different, all these different styles of music into his very
idiosyncratic, unique vision. And so he became sort of like a
godfather to downtown music and and the minimalist movement in
particular. So, yeah, I mean, what a what an
incredible story. But beyond being just one of the
most inventive composers of America, 20th century, what an
incredible story. So self-sufficient to be able to
live and work on on the streets and and be able to to put out
all these incredible recordings. Like you said, a composer's
composer. He wrote for string quartet,
solo percussion, brass ensemble. He wrote songs.
We found out after he moved to Germany in the 70s, he create
put out this great record called Hard Songs of all these
beautiful songs. So yeah, an incredible
inspiration. Joan, tell me about what your
knowledge of Moon Dog was and before you contributed to the To
the Orchestra album. I know you yourself are an
incredible songwriter, but also an incredible interpreter of
songs and, and, and a lover of songs.
So give me a little bit of your introduction to Moon Dog and and
your affinity for him. Yeah.
So, you know, the lore of, of Moon Dog sort of is, is
certainly present within musicians that are obsessed with
anything out of, you know, the, the norm and that, you know, in
New York City, he's like, he is like the godfather or something.
I guess. I mean, I don't remember the
first time I came across him. It was probably a visual first
because the visual is so striking and so compelling.
And you know, I, I, you know, Hal Welner certainly schooled me
about the, about the basics of, of Moon Dog.
And then, you know, he would get played on FMU and like, you
know, just like the, the, the radio, the, the independent
radio out of here. And it would always just grab me
because I, I particularly love music that has an ostinato
underneath and that, you know, just things sort of happen
across the top. It's, it's, it's so it, it's
just something that goes with my system, my blood or something.
So that always stood out to me. And then Maxine Mosten, who I
performed with in what what was when we were playing together
known as Anthony and the Johnsons, now known as Anoni,
they contacted me and said, I'm doing this work with Ghost Train
Orchestra and I'm writing these arrangements and I want you to
sing. And I mean, I am.
I live for collaboration. I can't.
I am always going to be writing songs by myself in my solitude.
But what I love, what really gets me is collaborating with
with other musicians. It never gets old because
there's always things to learn and new ways to approach and
hear music. So that was thrilling for me.
And then I'm now I'm just going on.
It's just please stop me. This is way more than Moon Dog I
got. Keep going, keep going.
OK, OK, so when I got to the rehearsal of of, of this of this
of these of these pieces and met Brian and experience the this
Ghost Train orchestra, I was just so blown away by the level
of musicianship with, you know, with each individual member of
the orchestra. And then all of the arrangement
capabilities of so many people in the band and the fact that
basically everyone in the band, you know, plays a huge variety
of styles of music have been schooled and all different kinds
of flavors of music. And, you know, and that just
like brought the just the level of musicianship was so high.
And so I, you know, I was just very thrilled to be to be a
part. Why spend a dark night with you?
What a favorite place to pay. So Brian, talk a little bit
about your approach to doing the album.
You know, even though there, you're right that there's not
been New York ensembles who have been doing his repertoire for a
while, there have been others that have tackled his work.
I guess the question is, did you listen to the other albums of
Moon Dog Recordings and how did the choices of what music you
were going to feature on the album came about?
Yeah, I mean, we, I think our whole idea was to really show
the breadth of his music. So in other words, if you could
do a record that showed, you know, not only his work for for
orchestra, but also the acapella stuff and also the solar
percussion stuff and the songs, this quartet music and somehow
sequence it, which is not easy by the way.
Sequence it in a way that makes it flow.
And then, you know, presented in a way that's compelling from a,
from a performance standpoint, that would be really unique.
It would be, first of all, be really super unique.
Show #1 and #2 it's, it's a, it's a record that covers a lot
of different styles, which is kind of what my interest is
anyway. And like Joan just said that
there's all this background in the band and everybody has has
played in all kinds of different ensembles, you know, so, so it's
just, it just felt like that was, that was a good fit.
And I didn't hear a lot of there, there have been, there
have been tributes to Moon Dog, but they've been more
recreations, you know, and we didn't really want to do that.
We, we were more interested in kind of like, let's let's, let's
play around with the material. So when we brought Joan in and
Joan kind of touched on this a little bit when we so Maxine
Mosten, who is one of the string players in the group, I, I, one
of the things I did was the first time, it was basically
farm out the arrangements because there's so much talent
in the group. I didn't want to be the only one
doing it. And then previous orchestra
albums, you were the primary. I was the only one that's right.
I was the only one doing it. I always say we should have, we
should have done this from from day one because it just gives it
gives so much variety to the record.
Plus, everyone in the group then feels like they're part of the
band, and it's a vested interest.
It was a great idea. I mean, and.
And Maxim is just such an incredible musician, you know,
and not just a composer, arranger, violinist, human
being. Yeah.
And. And so bringing him in, you
know, I knew he'd, I'd seen him. I'd seen him with Nancy and the
Johnsons. And I knew I'd also seen his
involvement and Joan's involvement and, and some of the
Hal loaner projects like the, the, the Leonard Cohen tribute,
for example. So when he, he mentioned, you
know, I'm thinking of Joan Wasser for, for these two
pieces, I thought, oh, that's perfect.
I was so, so thrilled, you know, to have her involved.
And so, so that was the really the beginning of bringing in
singers was when Joan came in. Joan was very early on.
She came in very early on at the end of it.
So she was on the very first show that we did live.
And when she came in and sang on those songs, it was like, oh, we
should really, this is so unique, bringing in singers to
this. And so we should, we should open
it up, you know, to, to, to other singers and make it into
like a Hal Wilner kind of thing. You know, where it's like,
let's, let's reimagine all the pieces and let's find let's cast
it as Hal used to do it. Hal is a brilliant casting
director in a way. He would think of a song and
say, what's the right person for this song?
Right. And so that's what I tried to
do. I tried to put the hell winner
hat on and say, OK, there's, I have all this music.
Who is the, who's the best person suited?
And we, I think we kind of knocked it out of the park.
Because if you, if you look at some of the songs and the people
that are singing on those songs, I can't imagine anyone else
singing on on say I'm this, I'm that, for example, Jarvis
Cocker's rendition of that. I mean, he, he's so great for
that because he, I was already a big fan of his from Pulp and he
has this kind of spoken word thing.
And so sort of again, the idea of that, that piece is already
kind of a spoken word piece. Bringing him into that, having
Joan come in on why spend the dark night that that was really,
I think the big, the big inspiration for us was bringing
in these, these guests and then with the guest in mind, writing
an arrangement for the guests. So in other words, we, we were
writing pieces based on who the guest was, right.
We didn't write them first and then a sign we write, we wrote
the pieces for the guest. So that was it was more an
inspiration of who's the guest artist and how do we write the
piece that would really suit them.
High in a rocky ledge is a good example.
I was a longtime friend with Marissa.
She she's here in Boston and you know, I knew her work.
There's a there's a song of her called a song of hers called
Shadow show Diane that has that same rhythm guitar part.
I talked with the said, why don't we just use that that that
your rhythm guitar part from shadow show Diane and then bring
in Kronos and that will be high in a rocky ledge.
So, so that that was kind of the approach we took.
It was all kind of based around the singers in a way.
She. Has a shadow.
One thing that has already come up that we haven't talked about
is the fact that is Cronus Quartet's involvement.
Tell me a little bit about how that came about.
Yeah, well, the the 1st 10 years of of ghost string, we didn't
have a string quartet. We had Mad Swift playing on on
violin, incredible violinist, singer, composer.
And what we wanted to do with the Moon Dog record was Moon Dog
had written all these beautiful pieces for string ensemble that
very few people were familiar with.
And so we wanted to. The idea was in terms of how do
we present this as a show, is to present it as a show with just
the quartet opening and then building it.
And so by the time you get to the intermission and the, you
know, you have all 16 people. That in itself is an interesting
thing, that to build an album as a while building a show.
I saw the show at Roulette, so, so I know exactly what you're
talking about, but that that in itself is a tribute album that's
built out of a tribute show is in itself an interesting
proposition. Well, that was of course based
on Stop Making Sense. The whole, the whole model of,
of coming on with just one person and then adding people
and then adding, you know that that that is such a great model
for a show, especially when you have a large ensemble like this.
Why bring everyone out in the beginning?
Why? Why not?
Why not build it? It's so much more compelling
when you do that. It's like, well, what's going to
happen next? Who's going to show up next on
stage? So we, we need we know we needed
a string quartet. The question is who should the
string quartet be? And before we found Maxim and
our New York string players, we, we thought it'd be, it would be
best to find a quartet that already been playing together
for a long time. And so we said, well, I think
Andy Laster our, our saxophone and said we'll start with
Kronos. They'll say no and then work
down the list. Well, I, I, I contacted Kronos
and they got back to me in 24 hours.
It turns out that David Harrington had met Moon Dog and
in fact had commissioned a piece for Moon Dog called Synchrony.
And I didn't know, I didn't know this.
So they got back to me and said David wants to meet you in New
York, you know, in 2 days. And so I, I met him and he was,
so we, we already had all the arrangements.
So I was, it was like a silver, I was presenting it on a silver
platter for him. I already had the arrangements I
brought in. I was nervous.
I brought in all the arrangements, all the scores he
didn't even need to look at. He said, yeah, we're, we're
going to, we're doing this because it's something he
already wanted to do. He was already very familiar
with Moon Dog's work. I will say that the, some of the
other core tests we reached out to because I, I sent a bunch of
emails out, half of them didn't even know who Moon Dog was.
Of course, of course David Harrington knows who Moon Dog
is. This guy, he, I mean, he's like
an inside, he's like a Hal 1 or an encyclopedia of, of
knowledge. So, so to have Kronos involved
was just the, I mean, the icing on the cake.
I mean, what a what a thrill, you know, to have this
monumental quartet that has already given us so many
beautiful worlds and then to have them fit into this was just
what, you know, a dream come true.
Absolutely, absolutely. Joan, you have two songs on the
album. Why Spend the Dark Night With
You and All His Loneliness with the Kronos Quartet.
And All His Loneliness is one of the oldest songs in Moon Dogs
catalog, and it's probably one of the most famous, right?
Because Janis Joplin did it in in the 60s with Big Brother.
Whoa. I didn't know that.
Yeah, no, I didn't until I read Robert Scotto's book.
That was, that was, that was, that was completely new to me.
Robert Scotto, who wrote a biography of Moon Dog that was
published a few years ago. Structurally, it's a really,
really simple song, but there's so much depth to it.
It's like a mantra. So can you talk a little bit
about that song from the perspective of both a writer but
also the vantage point of a singer of other people's songs?
A A great interpreter of songs. You know what, when, when, when,
when. Maxim gave you the arrangement.
Like how? How do you approach something
like that? You know, something so simple
that you turn into an epic. I told you I'm going to ask you
about all his loneliness. Oh, yeah, no, it's hard to
answer those questions because I, I think I, I usually try to
not think very much and try to just really listen to the music
and allow what happens to happen.
And this piece for me, it's, it just feels like it was written
for me. I know that Max said, I wrote it
for you, but you know, it, it's it, it, it just immediately
resonated for me. And I, I, I did my best to not
think at all and just allow it to, to happen.
And you know, when, when, when I'm able to do that because I'm
not always able to do that. I mean, it happens, I don't want
to say rarely, but it's it's it's not a it doesn't happen all
the time. I feel like then I'm it, it's
pop, you know, it, it feels like the, the stream is the stream is
moving. And if I can just effortlessly
slip into that stream along with its movement, I will be able to
create the most potent moment with the rest of the players.
And I feel like the way the song itself and then the way Max
arranged it, he really supplied the easiest route for me to just
slip into that moving stream. I don't know what else to say.
The song says it says it all in the words.
And I think it's, it's a, it's a feeling we've all had and you
don't really need to say much. Is that a, as a songwriter, is
that a thing you write a lot of different kinds of song as a
songwriter. Is that a thing that you aspire
to at times? And is there a way to get into
the headspace to be able to? Because it's, it's like first
time I heard it. It's like, wow, it's universal.
And that's what I meant by it's like a mantra.
It's like so many you said, it's a it's a feeling we all as
listeners, as singers, as you know, feeling humans in the
world hopefully all come to at some point.
Hopefully. Is that is that?
Is that something that you can put yourself in a mindset as a
songwriter to try to reach that plate?
Does that question make sense? Yeah, yeah.
The I am always trying to get there, you know, in my own
writing. I mean, it's it, it that's also,
I think why it resonates so much for me is that it's something
that I, I look for when I'm writing myself is and, and
again, I know it sounds, it sounds like I, I, I don't know
what it sounds like. I try, I try to, you know, when
I find myself thinking too much about, oh, it should go like,
no, it shouldn't go like anything.
It should just, if I can like empty my mind and just start
playing and if I get something going, a simple thing going that
feels good, everything will follow.
And you know, yeah, it's, it's it's not, it's hard to it's hard
to really put into words other than thinking doesn't work and
allowing is, is, is the thing. I'm always sort of looking for.
Brian, I want to bring you in on this because I think that like
one of the things that Joan is talking about is kind of one of
the things that makes Moon Dog special, right?
Is there is this this simplicity that there's there's almost a
Zen aspect to it. You know, there's a, there's a
song on the album called Enough about Human, right?
That is really I, it was, this was the first time I'd heard it.
I went back to listen to it on Heart Songs, the album that he
released in Germany. And it's actually, it almost
feels like a children's song, right?
Like this idea of simplicity. Can you talk a little bit about
the simplicity and complexity of Moon Dog and how you all
interpret it a little. Yeah, Yeah.
Well, I do want to mention, just pick up on what Joan was saying
about about all his loneliness. You know, we we've typically
done this in two sets and we we have her all his loneliness is
the last piece of the of the first set.
And because you can't follow it, it's not a piece that you it
doesn't make sense to have anything really.
You need sort of a a breath after it because I mean, her
perform your performance on that is so incredible.
And every time we've done it, you could hear a pin drop at the
end of the piece. I mean, it's the combination of
Jones performance and Max's arrangement and Cronus's
performance and and it's just it's just an incredible piece of
music. And, and so I think, I think
that and, and again, I, I totally get what you're saying.
It's more of a feel thing. You don't want to be coming and
thinking, OK, 54, I got to come in on this measure.
I mean, the way I'm, when I'm, I'm in the audience, by the way,
at this point, I'm out there. So the way the, the, the, the
show works is I come around because I don't, I don't
actually show up until sort of halfway through the first set.
And then I'm just, I just enjoy it as an audience.
And then I have to come in, in the second set as part of the
orchestra, right? But I get to be in the audience
and watch this whole thing go down and it's an amazing thing
to see Joan just come in and sort of seamlessly fit into
this, this world and this this whole orchestration thing as if
she's another instrument. It, it's just an incredible,
incredible way to end that first set.
It's, it's an also, it's a, it's a piece like no other piece that
he's written and it's a piece like no other piece in the set.
So it's a very special to me, that's a very special moment in
the on the recording and on the and on the show.
By the way, that's the also the reason why it's the last track
on the record, because it's such a powerful performance.
It's to me, it's difficult to follow that.
Speaking up on what you said about complexity and simplicity,
to me, the the interest that you keep saying simplicity, but the
fact of the matter is it's deceptively simple, right?
There's a lot of complexity thing about Moon Dog is you've
got all this complexity in the rhythm and the time signatures.
But as Joan was just talking about, you're, you've got these
beautiful melodies soaring over. That's his signature, right?
If you look at all the music that he's done, it's complex
rhythms and then beautiful melodies soaring over that.
That kind of might be the the, the thing that ties it all
together. But I think, I think if you, if
you look, take it, take a piece like why spend a dark night with
you, for example, I think that might be in 5-8 or five, four or
something like that. Very few people can do that.
Joan is one of the few people who can, who can come and do
that. Maybe it's your, you know, you,
you, you started training. We talked about this before Joan
and I both started on, I started on trumpet.
Joan started on violin before we started singing.
Maybe it's that and she could subdivide it in her head.
But if you listen to that track, you try to sing to it, it's
almost impossible to try to to try to find the one.
Even for me on stage, it's pretty scary because it's really
it's really hard to hear the one and and but The thing is, if
you're listening to the recording it, it just sounds.
It's this. There's a simplicity to it,
right? That's that's the interesting
thing is like he made it sound so simple, but when you're
actually sitting down trying to perform it, it's really, really
difficult. That piece be a hobo.
A few of the others as well. So yeah, you're, you're on to
something there. That, that, that juxtaposition
of of the complex rhythms, but these beautiful, very catchy
melodies that he writes. That's what's so interesting
about his stuff, right? Yeah, I mean, that's one of the
things. There's so much that as I was
preparing for our conversation and reading Robert Scotto's
book, I've been listening to and writing about Arthur Russell for
at this point 25 years. And the, the things kept coming
together and this you call them the godfather of minimum of New
York minimalism. You know, until I saw in Robert
Scotto's in I think the latest edition of Robert Scotto's book,
Philip Glass does the the introduction because Philip
Glass and his wife harbored moon dog for like a year, year and a
half. This, this idea of how, you
know, this person for whom when people think of New York
minimalism, people think of complexity.
And so when Moon Dogs, when Arthur Russell's music kind of
became, started coming back into the slipstream, people were
like, oh, this person who was an avant-garde cello player, made
disco and wrote pop songs and the same thing and also came
from the Midwest, from Iowa, you know, and same with Moon Dog.
There's, there's, there's a, there's a thing there that I, I
believe that is a, is a similarity, you know, just both
in terms of a personal history, the outsiderness.
But part of the thing about the outsiderness is the fact that
they really wanted to appeal to audiences, for people to listen
to this thing and not be making art in their own.
Even though they were making art in seclusion very, very often,
they were also looking for audiences.
Moon Dog had to rely on audiences to feed himself.
Literally. As a busker on the corner of 6th
Ave. and 53rd and 54th. Right, Sorry.
Yeah, yeah. No, the thing I, I, I, I so
agree with you. Those those two dudes really are
connected. I feel like both of them use,
you know, odd meter to really make you feel like you're
floating. Both of the songs I I I sing on
the record. Why spend a dark night in both
of them are in five. One of them's in a super slow
fight. One of them's in a extremely
fast five and five is, you know, it's just, it's a feeling that
we're, it's just a float. It's a floating thing.
And Arthur Russell did that too. Also, I, I, I feel like both of
them talk about, they, they, they talk about just daily life,
daily events, you know, in a way.
It's not like I'm going to write a song about love now.
It's like, no, I'm going to, I'm, you know, I'm going to
really give you impressions of what's happening right now in my
world. And that's going to really make
you feel part of the music and part of their worlds.
I feel like with both of them, they're like, oh, come join me
in my world that is not the world that we usually hear on on
the radio or whatever. Totally, Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
I, I, I love that you brought up Arthur Russell, because I'm a
huge Arthur Russell fan. I know.
I know Joan is too. But there's a record.
I mentioned Hard Songs, Right? That's the Moon Dog record.
Until Hard Songs came out, I don't know if people really knew
that Moon Dog was this really cool songwriter, like High on a
Rocky ledge. What a beautiful song.
I mean, my God, I mean, that's that's just got to be one of the
most beautiful pieces. But look at Arthur Russell.
There's a record that came out called Iowa Dream, and I think
it was a posthumous release that now I didn't.
I know Arthur Russell is a cellist composer, you know, the
disco stuff. But until that record came out.
So for people who don't know that record, it's him on solo
guitar and piano. That's it.
And it's amazed. Beautiful songs.
All of a sudden you this record comes out, it's like, Oh my God,
this guy is writing in. He's an incredible songwriter.
Just stripped away, stripped away everything else.
And this came out of the blue. So it there's a lot of
similarity here between these two, these two composers, right?
I mean, these two guys, they're songwriters.
Composers refuse to be pigeonholed.
That's the other thing. Uncategorizable.
Yeah. I mean, really, Yeah.
That's a great a great comparison that you made.
I want to ask about one song that is not on the record
because it's I think besides All Is Loneliness.
It's probably Moon Dog's most famous composition, partly
because it was sampled and turned into a dance hit, which
is Bird's lament. Any reason it didn't make it?
Or is that on the next volume? It's yeah, we, we recorded so
much material. I think we have like two or
three volumes worth of stuff. We were, we perform it as part
of our performance and we did record it.
It just didn't fit into the sequence.
I said before, like the sequencing is so tricky on a
record like this because as you know, as we just talked about,
there's so many styles. So, so yeah, I think that's
going to make it. I think it's a great it's, it's
one of his great pieces. So in the liner notes, I said we
would come back to Hal and I, I was reading the liners and
there's a great conversation in the liner notes for those who
will go and pick up this a physical copy or a band camp
copy of this record between Brian David Harrington of the
Cronus Quartet and Irwin Shusett, whose name might be
familiar to definitely people who listen to something called
the Big Ears podcast. He's he's an author radio DJ.
He calls himself a landmark preservationist of left field
music. And he now overseas the Sun Raw
Archive or one of the major Sun Raw Archive.
And the late producer Hal Welner's name gets mentioned as
someone whose spirit is on the album.
The album is dedicated to him and you've already heard Brian
and Joan mention his name. I feel like Hal's spirit is
obviously present here and I feel like Hal's name does not
get mentioned enough. Brian, you brought him up as an
inspiration to this record. Joan, you and I have had
conversations previously about Hal's importance.
Can both of you just give a sense of, first of all, who Hal
Wilner was and why his spirit is present on a record like this?
John, you want to? Start sure I mean, Hal Wilner
was the center of New York City music.
He was connected, hit the amount of tendrils he had out into
every different kind of music and across decades of of music
and, and and so much, I don't know how what to say.
So much music that maybe not everyone had heard was just
gigantic. It was it was more than I think
anyone could ever really fit into one's brain.
And you know, he had an an uncanny ability to put musicians
together that you would not imagine together, to create
something just fantastic and magical.
And he delighted in that idea that through music we find new
ways to create when we go outside of our group of people,
our genre, our age group, our etcetera.
You know, he did that show. Oh God, I always want to call it
Night Moves and it's absolutely not called that.
Night Music. Night music yeah, where he did
that as a as ATV program. And I mean, if you want to see
the representation of what I just said in incredible musical,
you know, in in in, you can see it all there.
It's it's there's just an amazing performances and just
wildness and weirdness and genius and just fun, fun.
And he always stayed behind the scenes.
He, he, he really loved people putting people together and then
taking off and it that's a unique quality.
But that was really him. And I think the fact that he did
have that everybody that knows them just has so much love,
respect, honor for him because he was so respectful of of
everyone and their musical talents and ability and openness
to try something new. So yeah, that's I think I did
it. Yeah, I, I love that.
I mean, I, you know, Joan, Joan and Hal were super close.
I only met Hal once and it was right before the pandemic.
I was, he had a he had a office next to John Kilgore and that's
where we mixed one of the Kronos records before this.
And he stopped by and I got to meet him and mention this
record. So we were working on this
record and some of his staff had gone to see us, I think at LPR.
And he said, yeah, I heard, I heard there was a Moon Dog show.
And, and so I was telling him about the record and, and there
was something that he wanted to do.
And he, he had actually talked to David Harrington about, I
think they had talked about maybe doing something along
these lines. He, Hal's just so many ideas,
right? He's probably got, there's
probably A50 ideas he didn't get to, but but what a treat.
And what an encyclopedia of knowledge and encyclopedia of
music. You know, we were there
listening to this Pete Seeger record I worked on called Long
Time Passing. And he had all these stories
about, about, you know, Pete Seeger and, and he even had a
little Pete Seeger doll. He had a little, he had a little
office down the hall, all these little dolls.
And. And this is sort of like a
curiosity shop. Yeah, what a what an incredible
inspiration. We, by the way, we dedicate the
record to him. So for people who who aren't
familiar with Hal Willner, you know, go look up his, his
records, you know, his, it's an incredible body of work.
It really. Is for for, for the listeners
who who are new to his name. He was one of the first, if not
the first musical directors of Saturday Night Live.
And then his career grew from there having having Sun Rod do
Disney tunes, having Keith Richards do Charles Mingus tune
to Yeah, no, he. It just puts a smile on your
face just hearing you say that. It's like, when are they going
to put out they should put out a Blu-ray night music.
You know, I don't know who who who owns those those archives,
but the night night music, you know, it's like Christian
Marklay and and like you said, Nick Cave singing with Charlie
Hayden and you know, it's just these crazy combinations.
I would love to see like a a Blu-ray night music come out.
You know, I'd be the first in line to buy that.
Just from a licensing standpoint, I can only imagine
the nightmare, right? Probably not going to happen,
but yeah, a man can dream where? You going will that gun in your
hand? Here's a question, Ryan.
What do you think of yourself? Like what, what, how do you
define yourself in terms of both your what you do in Ghost Train
Orchestra? Do you think of yourself
primarily as a musician, as a musicologist, as a historian?
Like, how does your practice all come together?
Because we're here and here seeing what you've done.
I know that you've also produced radio shows about about
composers. Like how does your practice come
together? Well, I'm a musician first and
I, I love history also, but when I, I, I should go back to the
very beginning of this project, when I the way, the way I found
out about Moon Dog was through a mutual friend of Joan and me
named Bryce Gog. And he's an engineer in New
York, and I was working. I know I was a producer.
Yeah, and I know, I know him through, I was working on a
project called The Confessions where I just, I'd write songs
and I and sing. So I, I play keyboard and guitar
and sing in that band. And I was working with him on
that project right around 2006. I was working with him and I, I
told him I'm, I'm working on this.
I have this new band called Ghost Train Orchestra.
And here's what we're kind of thinking of doing.
Well, he wrote me this one line e-mail.
Have you ever heard of Moon Dog? This is like probably 20 years
ago, right? I hadn't heard of him.
And that's that's how I found out about about Moon Dog was
through Bryce. But I'm not answering your
question in in general. I'm just what I'm trying to say
is I'm interested in a lot of different things, but I I, I'm a
musician first. And you know, I think I think
you know, this just being able to work with all these
incredible musicians in this group and what they brought to
the table to this record, I think is just and incredible.
Take take for example, Matt Bowder's arrangement of enough
about human rights. You brought that up.
The original is solo piano and voice.
Listen to the recording. Matt took that and exploded it
into 15 piece orchestra with Karen Mandler singing and
playing harmonica. Incredible right to from, from
an, from a solo piano piece to an orchestral piece.
And now you're with the with his arrangement.
Now you're hearing all the richness and the harmonic
richness of what was originally in, in the, in this, in this.
I like, I like Matt's version better.
It's just more of an aesthetic preference.
It's not that it's better or worse, but that's just one
example. And then you take Max's
incredible arrangements that he wrote for Joan and everybody
else. I mean, it is just a real, it's
a real thrill to to play in this group because everybody's bring,
everybody's bringing their A game.
And it's just there's this healthy competition that
happens. You know, it's like, wow, that
I, yeah, how am I going to live up to that?
You know? So, so yeah, it's it's it's a
real thrill to play in a group like this.
But. But I think what's interesting
about this project is I'm really kind of spinning plates up there
in the show because I'm playing trumpet.
I'm kind of conducting on one, I'm arranging, you know, I'm,
I'm producing it. So I'm kind of, I'm kind of
wearing a lot of hats on this, on this particular project.
But you know, that's, that's been really fun to do.
I mean, when you're working with this caliber of, of, of
musicianship, it's just a, it's a treat.
You know, it's not a, it's not a stressful thing.
It's a treat. Right on.
Well, last question, what's next our is the Ghost Train Orchestra
and all the singers you're are, is the tour continuing?
Are you doing more of the Moon Dog shows?
Is there another Moon Dog volume?
Is there another project on the way?
Yeah, there's another volume. We're obviously we're performing
at Big years. That's why we're doing this
podcast. So we're bringing, we're
bringing this show to Big Years, which I'm really excited about.
Ashley was at our our Town Hall show and loved it.
I mean it, it's so, it's so, it's so perfect for Big Ears in
a way, because of all the different styles.
And Ashley has such an incredible love of all music,
you know, And you, that's that's why Big Ears is my favorite
festival because I can go there. I love all music too.
I love all the genres and to be able to go there and just
experience all these different genres and then see all your is.
There's a community aspect to it too, so you know this.
This project best festival ever. Totally.
Truly best festival in the United States and Navy in the
world forever. OK, bye.
I I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to disagree.
With that right, I, I, I've, I've told them it, it's, it's
the gold standard as well. Absolutely.
John yeah, you're obviously going to be on stage with the
The Ghost Train Orchestra. What do you got going on?
Separate from this, like what do I, what is going on?
You know, I, I just got back from like 9 months touring with
Jonas Policewoman. I do another tour in the end of
November. I also now tour with Iggy Pop
playing keys and singing. So I'm going to South America
with him in a couple days and then we're doing actually some
Northeast US shows and then I I tour and make music for at with
Africa Express just did a bunch of shows with them.
We're doing a show in Mexico City in the end of October.
And you know, I am a serial collaborist, new word of
collaborator. And so, you know, I doing, doing
this kind of project, the, the moon dog ghost train projects,
the Africa express project with like just a variety of musicians
from all over with all different backgrounds and styles.
It's, it's my favorite thing. It, it feels like honestly, the
way the world could be, you know, it feels like, well, we
can get along here, can't we? Then, you know, we can expand
that. And I think the more people that
see people from different places successfully making music
together is it's just a, it's a, it's a hope for the future.
Again, Brian, Joan, thank you so, so much.
Thank you. Great.
Great questions, great conversation.
Thank you. I'm in the world very young and.
Old. Big Years Conversations about
Music is a production of Big Years Festival.
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. The show is produced by Matt
Marowitz. This episode was edited by
Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder. Ashley Capps is the executive
and artistic director of Big Ears.
Big Ears 2026 will take place March 26th through 29th, 2026 in
Knoxville, TN. For more information and
festival updates, visit bigearsfestival.org.
Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those ears wide
open.