1 00:00:09,010 --> 00:00:13,290 Welcome to Big Ears Conversations about Music, a 2 00:00:13,290 --> 00:00:17,890 podcast from Big Ears Festival. I'm Sarah Gilletti, We're glad 3 00:00:17,890 --> 00:00:29,130 you're here. Today's episode brings us 4 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:33,600 another panel discussion from Big Ears 2025, a round table 5 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,320 consisting of three musical thinkers and visionary players 6 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,320 titled 1965 Sound, Fire and Revolution. 7 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,160 This discussion took place on Sunday morning, March 30th, 2025 8 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,440 at the Blue Note Lounge at Jackson Terminal. 9 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,000 We were lucky to convene a dream team, each of whom we knew to be 10 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,440 thoughtful observers of culture, with particular reverence for 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,280 jazz's past and present. They are guitars. 12 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,160 Nelson Klein, bassist Melvin Gibbs, and drummer Chad Taylor. 13 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,600 1965 was the year that gave us pivotal albums such as John 14 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Coltrane's A Love Supreme, Don Cherry's Complete Communion, 15 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,840 Archie Shep's Fire Music, and Andre Hill's Compulsion. 16 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,880 It was a seismic period for creative music, American 17 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:27,080 politics, and cultural upheaval. 60 years later, 1965 still 18 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,120 resounds not just as a historical moment, but as an 19 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,600 urgent mirror to the present. In this bracing conversation, 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,560 led by critic and author Nate Shannon of WRTI FM and NPR 21 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,480 Music, the panel explores the sounds and messages of that 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,640 pivotal year and what they mean in our world now. 23 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:55,930 Let's listen in. Welcome, welcome. 24 00:01:55,930 --> 00:01:59,090 Welcome to day four. It is Day 4, right? 25 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,640 Day 4 of of Big Years 2025. How is this festival treating 26 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,160 you? Yeah. 27 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Yeah. Me, too. 28 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,560 Welcome to the Blue Note Pop Up Lounge and to this panel, which 29 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,400 I'm so excited about. I should introduce myself. 30 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,840 My name is Nate Chenin. I'm the author of Playing 31 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,680 Changes, Jazz for the New Century. 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,120 I work at WRTIA Jazz and Classical Station in 33 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,160 Philadelphia and contribute to NPR Music. 34 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,600 And we're going to hear a bunch of music today and we're going 35 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,120 to talk about it. But the reason I'm most excited 36 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,720 about this panel is because of these three gentlemen here, 37 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:46,480 incredible artists, brilliant thinkers, sort of historians and 38 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,760 theorists of this music, whether they choose to identify 39 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,280 themselves as such or not. So I want, I'm going to 40 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,040 introduce everybody, and then I want one huge round of applause. 41 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,120 All right. So starting here on my immediate 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,960 right, the amazing bassist, bandleader, composer. 43 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,000 I can call you a critic too, I think. 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,880 Oh, definitely a writer. A writer as well, for sure. 45 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,680 When I say critic, that's actually praise, you know, it's 46 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,520 Melvin Gibbs. Yeah. 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Hold your applause. Hold your applause. 48 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:21,560 That. That does feel kind of weird, 49 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,040 though, doesn't it? I'm sorry for doing that. 50 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,160 In the middle here, the maestro Chad Taylor, drummer, 51 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,720 bandleader, composer, professor. Yes, Chad Taylor. 52 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:38,520 And we move on to the wonderful guitarist and composer and 53 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,800 bandleader and scene maker and catalyst Nels Klein. 54 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,120 Now how about a hand for our panel? 55 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,160 So we are in the Blue Note Lounge, as I mentioned, and it's 56 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,400 pretty obvious. I'm going to begin with a with a 57 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,800 piece of music and then I'm going to set some context that 58 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,960 we can talk about. So I will not identify this. 59 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,280 Let's just settle into it. We'll hear about a minute or 60 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:44,640 two. The. 61 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:32,960 The. All right, who knows the name of 62 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,760 that composition? Distinguished panellists, 63 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,400 anyone? Anyone in the house say that? 64 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,040 Say that a little louder. Lenoir. 65 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:50,080 Marchand this is an Andrew Hill composition who can translate 66 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:57,280 from the French. The blacks are marching all 67 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:59,040 right. So this is an Andrew Hill 68 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:05,360 composition from the 1965 Bobby Hutcherson album Dialogue. 69 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,240 And so I'll get the, I'll get the, the, the, the product part 70 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,960 of this out of the way first. I, I am holding a tone poet 71 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,640 edition of Bobby Hutcherson's dialogue. 72 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,520 It's the only copy in this store. 73 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,480 And after the panel, if anyone wants to purchase it, I guess 74 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,640 come see me, you know, I'll bring it over, over to the, to 75 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,960 the actual retailers from Blue Note. 76 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,640 But you know, maybe if you're super nice, the, the panel will 77 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,960 even consider signing it. But OK, that, that that ends the 78 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,440 product portion of this. I want to talk a little about 79 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:48,080 that title and this moment. So please pardon me for talking 80 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,600 a lot at the outset because we're all going to get into it. 81 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,120 But I was thinking about time, right? 82 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,400 This panel is about 1965. Today is March 30th. 83 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,520 On March 30th, 1965, Funeral services were held in Detroit 84 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,840 for a woman named Violet Liuzzo. Violet was a white woman living 85 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:14,880 in Detroit, but she went down to Selma to be a volunteer driving 86 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,120 marchers between Selma and Montgomery. 87 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,920 And one night, I think on March 27th, her car was forced off the 88 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,040 road by a car full of Ku Klux Klan members. 89 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:37,560 They shot her, killed her, and one of them was actually an FBI 90 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,880 informant. And so I bring up the story not 91 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,840 to open, not purely to open with heaviness, but just to sort of 92 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,120 ground us in the, the historical moment that has this resonance. 93 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Because in in March of 1965, I mean, Bloody Sunday is March 94 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,000 7th, right? There's another March on, on 95 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,040 March 9th. So it's this incredibly charged 96 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 moment in American history, and it's one that has some pretty 97 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,440 uneasy echoes in our own time. So I don't think it's a stretch 98 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,200 to hear all of that in Andrew Hill's music. 99 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,520 And I'm really interested in what you all think about 100 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:28,920 musicians processing all of this and and translating or investing 101 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:35,000 it into creative expression. So that's a mouthful and I 102 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,240 apologize, but it it just felt like, OK, we're going to we're 103 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,960 going to start there. Melvin, do you have any, any 104 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:49,120 response immediately? Well, my kind of immediate 105 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,520 response is contextual. You know, since you started 106 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:58,760 where you started. My mom and her sister, my aunt, 107 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,360 they actually moved to New York City after witnessing a 108 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,040 lynching. So that was the context of them 109 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,320 going to New York. And I also think about a couple 110 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,840 of years later, as we were talking about 6567, you know, as 111 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,440 you get older, your childhood memories fade away. 112 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,040 And one of the one of the childhood memories that I I 113 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,560 still remember clearly is the riot in Brooklyn in 67. 114 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,240 It stopped two blocks from where we live. 115 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,520 And you can see like buildings burning and shit. 116 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,240 I'm looking out the window like, so I mean, this kind of just 117 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:42,240 contextualizing what everyone was thinking and how that bled 118 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,120 into the music that that's, that's kind of what it comes to 119 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,080 iron, first of all. Yeah. 120 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,880 That that I didn't know that that was so close to home for 121 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,320 you, you know, in terms of like the bearing witness and moving, 122 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,880 you know, your family relocating because of that. 123 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,480 It's that's that's very heavy. Chad, do you have any response 124 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,160 you know, to the music or the the historical timeline? 125 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,200 Is that Joe Chambers on that record? 126 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,320 This is Joe Chambers, yes. Yeah, so I studied with with Joe 127 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,680 Chambers and he was really one of the reasons why I went to New 128 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:26,160 York. And an interesting thing that he 129 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,320 told me that that really resonates with me is when he 130 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:38,280 said that free music, for him, it wasn't a or a free jazz 131 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:44,400 wasn't about a style of playing, but it was more about musicians 132 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,560 breaking through to playing any style of, of music. 133 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,720 And that's not to take anything away from an Albert Eiler or 134 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,720 that or anything like that. But for him, the real free jazz 135 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,960 were musicians like Bobby Hutch Hutcherson, Freddie Hubbard, you 136 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,040 know, Henry Grimes, this goes on and on who were able to break 137 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:13,400 free and and do all these different types of styles within 138 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,320 the jazz contest. And this album is titled 139 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,200 Dialogue, and that is named after a composition by Joe 140 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,000 Chambers. Contributed to the session. 141 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,680 And I love thinking about dialogue in and of itself as 142 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,000 this like, incredibly liberating act. 143 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,120 It's not, you know, like what is possible in that word, in that 144 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,680 idea, you know, it's, it's, it can be a lot more complex than 145 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:40,600 it seems. Right. 146 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,800 True. All right, Nellis, over to you. 147 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:52,440 In the 1965 I was like 9 years old and my only awareness of 148 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,040 what was happening in civil rights was what I heard my 149 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,280 parents talk about. They're both school teachers in 150 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,280 the Los Angeles City school system and paying very close 151 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,720 attention to what was happening. But for me, that was a very 152 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,200 abstract thing. I didn't get it. 153 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,240 So I have to, you know, catch up with that as I was getting 154 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,600 older. And then as I started listening 155 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:22,480 to so-called jazz, that wasn't until I was 16 maybe when I 156 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:28,400 heard Africa by John Coltrane. So ironically, I made a record a 157 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,720 few years ago of Andrew Hill music and I completely forgot 158 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,560 that that was an Andrew Hill piece. 159 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,320 And, and it's pretty obviously an Andrew Hill piece, you know, 160 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,560 especially all the odd meter stuff going on. 161 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:48,600 There's something about it that that back then, that mood of 162 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,240 unrest and in the jazz context makes me think also of Charles 163 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:59,320 Mingus because like, let my children hear music a a, a 164 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,000 record like that, a composition like what we just heard. 165 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,120 It does embrace, like what Chad referring to with Joe Chambers. 166 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,920 It does embrace kind of almost everything all at once, but 167 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:18,240 maintain this mood of, I guess you'd say unrest and rebellion. 168 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,800 And so it's, it's, it's profound. 169 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,800 It's utterly profound. But I at the time this was 170 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,280 happening, I had no clue like 0. And I was just getting, I was 9, 171 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,320 but I was just getting into my twin brother Alex and I were 172 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,240 just getting into music. But it was the two things, I 173 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,680 guess were rock'n'roll, you know, and this is, you know, I 174 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:43,920 could say suburban Los Angeles, but almost the entire city is a 175 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,360 suburb. And, and I got really interested 176 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,760 in Ravi Shankar and Indian classical music right around 177 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,480 this time, little after, I guess. 178 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,120 And so I'm just, you know, at this point, always thinking 179 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:04,760 about the the artist's role in bringing awareness and 180 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:11,680 consciousness to struggles worldwide or, or domestic local 181 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:19,320 and how to do that. And this was, I think, a utterly 182 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,760 profound realization of that effort, you know? 183 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,320 I love that track in this conversation because form and 184 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,360 function are really, you know, harmonized the the thing you're 185 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,960 describing and that you describe Chad, where things are kind of 186 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,440 breaking open and there's a new articulated freedom that also 187 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,120 has a sort of social analogy, right. 188 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,840 But a point I want to make about this, especially as we're 189 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,720 talking the beginning of this panel about the civil rights 190 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:02,240 movement, is that it wasn't only adventurous sounding jazz that 191 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,280 was speaking to that moment, right? 192 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,120 And so I'm going to play another example, Nels, because you're 193 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,480 here, I have to play some guitar. 194 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,320 Now in 1965, Grant Green releases Idle Moments, and I 195 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,400 believe that there are copies of Idle Moments here, but that's 196 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,120 not what I'm going to play. I'm actually going to break 197 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,920 format and play something that's not on Blue, not records. 198 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,600 This is also by Grant Green. It's called the Selma March. 199 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,920 All right. So I mean there is nothing 200 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,880 challenging to the sensibilities about that. 201 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,680 It's just the most, like, beautifully soulful musical 202 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,880 morsel, you know? But the fact that he felt like 203 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,720 this is for the movement, you know, like, I want to dedicate 204 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,520 this grooving composition to the Selma March, you know it. 205 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,920 I think it just speaks volumes about that moment. 206 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,160 Listening to that reminded me of something that I realized has 207 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:52,080 actually been still influential to me today, which is the fact 208 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,160 that when we were kids, unlike today in New York City anyway, 209 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,200 in the black community, everybody, it was one. 210 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,680 It wasn't like the kids listen to one set of music and older 211 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,400 people listen to a different set of music. 212 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,079 You know, we, you know, you be in the backyard, you might hear 213 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,560 this, you hear Cannon boy Adelie, then you'll hear James 214 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,599 Brown afterwards, then you'll hear Pete Funka. 215 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,040 It would go, then you'll hear B.B. 216 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,960 King. It would all, you know, it was 217 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,640 all part of 1 pot of music back then. 218 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,839 And the other thing is, you know, when you're struggling, 219 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:28,319 you have you have to have joy. So it's kind of like what I hear 220 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,240 that I'm kind of like, of course, This is why we're 221 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,280 marching because we, we got to, you know, we want to have good 222 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,560 lives. We want to be like everybody 223 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,880 else, you know, in that sense. So that's, that's the kind of 224 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,280 the quality that that I hear in that, you know, the real kind of 225 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,080 like, OK, there there is. I hear community in that and I 226 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,960 hear love in that, and that's part of it as well. 227 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,960 Nate, I'm going to disagree with you a little bit about Grant. 228 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,360 And, and you know, in a different context, you can 229 00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:01,920 really see Grant as a, a avant-garde musician. 230 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:08,000 And what I what I mean by that is on so many grand green solos, 231 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,840 you know, he'll, he'll play a motif, play a figure and then 232 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,280 you're like, OK, what is he going to do next? 233 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,600 But then he just keeps playing it and you're like, OK, is he 234 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,360 going to switch it up? No, he keeps playing it to the 235 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,760 point where you get uncomfortable and you're like, 236 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,760 no, he's still playing this. And then he finally changes it. 237 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,240 And for me, that's. That's ground breaching. 238 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,720 Yeah. Just just interject. 239 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,240 I was at a manual show. Emmanuel did that a couple of 240 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,280 times and I was like, yeah, you, you know, it's a thing. 241 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,760 You just keep doing the thing to like, OK, I'm just going to keep 242 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,400 doing this. Yeah. 243 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,320 Now, do you have any thoughts about? 244 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,680 About Grant Green, Well, I mean I love Grant Green. 245 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,680 What you're saying about Emmanuel. 246 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,320 I was playing with Jamala Dean the other night. 247 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,560 He was in the band and he did a basically a a low multi phonic 248 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:08,160 for it was profoundly long drone and I wasn't expecting that at 249 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,960 all. You know, because especially 250 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Alto saxophone for a lot of mellifluous details, you know, 251 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,200 and it for me as a drone freak, it it was really I was 252 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,320 nourishing. Let's say in this piece I hear 253 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:28,960 hope, you know, I hear it's almost jubilant, but I would 254 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:34,000 just say it, it sounds profoundly hopeful and which 255 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,800 also kind of makes gives me kind of chills in a in a certain way. 256 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,480 But of course, I think, well, I never really thought about what 257 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:48,320 Chad said, but it's very true, especially that one. 258 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:57,800 And and he reminds me musically it I, I know my friend Jeff 259 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,000 Parker has taken a lot of inspiration from Grant. 260 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,560 And so I always have this kind of warm feeling when I listen to 261 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,680 Grant Green because he also makes me think of my friend 262 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,760 Jeff, who I adore, you know, But in terms of this, this piece of 263 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,920 music, it's kind of like, I think what Melvin said, it's 264 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,920 kind of social. You know, and, and that's the 265 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,440 reason that what Melvin's talking about with the big, the 266 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:27,560 big lump of music, that's why you hear so much, you know, I 267 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,720 hate these terms, you know, the F word, you know, the fusion 268 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,280 word and the, the, the sort of soul jazz term and all that 269 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:35,680 stuff. But that's why you hear all that 270 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,280 stuff in the sample now, you know, because it was part of 271 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,640 growing up, you know, in people's families, they're 272 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,280 listening to everything like that, you know, Anyway, that's, 273 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,920 I'm not saying much, but that's. Well, and it's important, too, 274 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,240 to think about, you know, to title that piece the Selma 275 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,640 March. You know, I'd have to look up 276 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:02,040 when in 1965 he recorded that. But he's looking back on that 277 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,920 moment and it's a moment of danger. 278 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,080 But also, especially in the review, it's a moment of joy and 279 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,680 triumph, right? It's like we did this thing, 280 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,920 right? So that that uplifting feeling 281 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,160 and that the social element, that the joyous element that 282 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,000 that all feels just intrinsic to that piece. 283 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,440 I have one more piece of music that I think will be familiar to 284 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,760 everyone in this room. But maybe maybe the the 285 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,880 implications of the title may not be. 286 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,920 And this is a Blue Note record. It's from that album that's on 287 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,360 the wall, right over there, free for all Art Blakey and the Jazz 288 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,440 Messengers. I'm just going to play it. 289 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,800 It's so heartbreaking to cut off right as the solo is beginning. 290 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:10,600 But why? Why'd you? 291 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:11,200 Do that. I know. 292 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,040 I know. I'm the critic. 293 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,640 You can throw things at me. It's OK. 294 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,840 Yeah. So. 295 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,600 So you guys know the the name of that tune. 296 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,320 I mean, we know the. Tune you can't remember the 297 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,960 name. So that is a a piece called The 298 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,560 Core. It's by Freddie Hubbard, and it 299 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,560 became a staple in the Jazz Messengers repertoire. 300 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,760 But the Core is named after the Congress of Racial Equality. 301 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,080 And it's one of those jazz titles where it's like, if you 302 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,000 know, you know, right. And so Freddie did that, you 303 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,160 know, with a lot of intention. But yeah, any, any response to 304 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,640 that? I don't have a theory around it. 305 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,640 I'm just like, that's a really, that's a cool thing. 306 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,360 And I love that it's actually on the wall there. 307 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,760 Yeah, well, my first response is to shout out the Muse in 308 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,160 Brooklyn. Y'all don't know, but the muse 309 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:07,120 was the new, The Children, the new Children's Museum and 310 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,600 Barbara Reggie was the leader, was the head of the music 311 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,480 department there. And all of us, me, Vernon Reed, 312 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,600 who else? A bunch of other people, you 313 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,280 know, there was two, there was Weldon Ernovine in Queens. 314 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,960 But the Brooklyn crew we are, I mean, Reggie is my first base 315 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,280 teacher or actually my, my acoustic base teacher. 316 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,520 I, I played acoustic for a while before I gave it up so I 317 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,120 wouldn't be up here and now without without Reggie and them. 318 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:40,760 So I got to shout him out first and just amazing piece of music, 319 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,320 you know, thinking about and again, talking about the 320 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,600 intergenerational thing, art the jazz matrices is the one group. 321 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:52,160 Well, that man son Rah, they could go, you know, they'd be 322 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,280 playing somewhere and you know, all of us like we're already 323 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,360 like in the hip hop era. But when when Blakely and them 324 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,360 start playing everybody like, yo, what's that? 325 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,320 You know what I mean? It it had that level of power 326 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,880 to. So just hearing it is just like 327 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,280 just puts me in a great place. That's all I got to say. 328 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,720 Yeah, this, this record had a, a profound effect on me because I, 329 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,720 I, when I was 14 years old, I started listening to jazz 330 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,440 records and I found this, I think I bought this record for 331 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:31,160 $0.99, a used version. And I put the thing on and I was 332 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:37,480 like, wow, jazz can be serious, you know, like this is this is 333 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,400 very serious music. And another profound thing for 334 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,840 me is I was learning how to play the the drum kit and this is a 335 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,480 technical thing. But our Blakey on this on this 336 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,880 track, the core is playing half no triplets on the hi hat 337 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,160 against all this other stuff that he's doing. 338 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,000 And I've, I've never heard anything like that. 339 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,760 And to this day, I'm still trying to learn how to do it. 340 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,680 It's really, really. So it's it's a freedom not just 341 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,960 in, in the in the context, you know, social context, but really 342 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,080 what he's playing is so free and being able to do those half note 343 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,720 triplets. Yeah, Yeah. 344 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,040 It's a different kind of polyrhythm there, right, 345 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:31,840 Exactly. So 1965 effectively begins with 346 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,240 the release of a Love Supreme. You know that that album was 347 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,600 made in 1964, but and it was sort of conceived, you know, 348 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,840 years and years earlier, but it comes out at the beginning of 349 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,360 1965. And I don't think I have to play 350 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,520 any of a love Supreme. We all I could just say the the 351 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,440 name and it it's playing in your head right now. 352 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,320 So I'm going to play some different Coltrane in a minute, 353 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,360 but let's talk about the the power of that that album coming 354 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:05,000 out, you know, at the beginning of this year, we're celebrating 355 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,200 the anniversary, one of the most important albums, not on Blue 356 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,640 Note, but I think we can all forgive. 357 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,040 So what does that? What role has that album played 358 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,080 for you all? What's your relationship to it 359 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,040 like? I'm saddled with it. 360 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:30,480 So for me, I grew up in a pretty religious family and my mom had 361 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,120 a rule in the house. She said, you know, you can play 362 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,800 jazz record to everything, but on Sunday we're only listening 363 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,960 to religious music. So I remember the day I found 364 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,400 that record, Sunday Mortis I would put the divine. 365 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,000 Loophole. I turned the volume all the way 366 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,000 up to 10, just blasted it. And my mom comes running in and 367 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,080 she's like, turn that, turn that music down. 368 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,800 What? You know, we don't listen to to 369 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,920 to jazz. And I said, mom, check this out. 370 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,520 Read this poem. Yeah, read this poem. 371 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:14,400 And she's like, oh, OK. Nels, what about you? 372 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,880 Is is. Well, well, as I mentioned, I 373 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:24,560 started sort of on a, some kind of jazz trail from after hearing 374 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,920 Africa, right. And, and my, my brother Alex and 375 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,960 I were, we just couldn't believe what we were hearing. 376 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:35,000 And, and the context to that is I told this story before, so I'm 377 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,360 sorry if it's if it's boring, but we heard it because a friend 378 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:45,360 of ours in, you know, junior high school, his dad was a, a 379 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:51,360 very avant-garde bohemian poet from Brooklyn. 380 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,640 In fact, originally named Jack Hirshman. 381 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,520 He ended up being poet laureate of San Francisco many years 382 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,600 later. But he was my first contact with 383 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:07,120 like, serious bohemian vibe. And he had been fired and lost 384 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:11,480 his tenure as a professor at UCLA for two reasons, as far as 385 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,160 I know. One was he was giving all the 386 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,440 male students A's so their grade point averages would be high 387 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,800 enough so they wouldn't go to Vietnam and the other one was 388 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,440 that he at one point rode his motorcycle through the hallways 389 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,600 of the of the. I actually later met a friend 390 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,240 who had him as a English professor and one day went to 391 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,640 class and she was really bummed out because of the mothers of 392 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,040 invention were playing at lunchtime in the student Co-op 393 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,280 and Jack was nowhere to be found and he was found in the front 394 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,000 row of the mothers invention show. 395 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,600 So my, our friend David, his son, told us that his dad wanted 396 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,160 this John Coltrane record for his birthday. 397 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,840 And when he when our friend David heard it, he thought of my 398 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,400 brother. He said, you like all that 399 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,760 instrumental Frank Zappa stuff. I thought you might like this. 400 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,600 See this? It's like, but it's, I mean, 401 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,280 that was a connection he made. So we sat down and listened to 402 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:17,400 it and, and that was like a complete revelation. 403 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,720 And it was the not just the everything about it. 404 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,920 And I was already, you know, listening to Indian classical 405 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,800 music and rock'n'roll. So there was something about it 406 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,400 that I didn't, I didn't know this was happening, you know, 407 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,440 and I was crushed when I found out that this man wasn't alive 408 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,400 at that point. This was 1971. 409 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,160 The, you know, the, I guess you could say the, the gravitas of 410 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,600 the tenor saxophone entrance was I mean, so, so that I became 411 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,280 obsessed with this man John Coltrane and the so the next 412 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,600 record I got after getting Africa was a Love Supreme 'cause 413 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,960 that's the one everyone talked about when I was, you know, 414 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,880 asking anyone about this man. And this dovetailed perfectly 415 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,400 with my interest in my burgeoning interest in Eastern 416 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,160 mysticism and the idea that I had received from listening to 417 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,360 Indian classical music, about music as an endeavour far beyond 418 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:23,320 mere entertainment. And so in this man and in this 419 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:30,760 music, I found not just inspiration, but aspiration, you 420 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,400 know, and this, this informed in my mind at that time. 421 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,360 And it was, you know, 16 and just coming out of Blues rock 422 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,120 and trying to figure out what I was going to do. 423 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,480 I always liked instrumental music the best, you know, So, so 424 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,160 it was the beginning of everything, this recording in a 425 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,440 certain way, but not just musically. 426 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,960 It was, it was about this, this the spiritual component to 427 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:06,000 artistic endeavour. And with a kind of luster or a 428 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,880 kind of mystery. Mystery that has never lost. 429 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:16,840 It's never waned in my life. Yeah, I love that story. 430 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,080 I love everything about it. Melbourne Do you have a a Love 431 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,520 Supreme? Connection Kale I got a whole I 432 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,400 mean I can go. I don't know just on this one 433 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,000 second I mean immediately pops into mind. 434 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,240 I have the little, little card that I got at the Coltrane 435 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,320 Church in San Francisco when Harriet Tubman, we were playing 436 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,800 out there and we're like, OK, well, we're here on a Sunday. 437 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,400 What are we doing? I'm like, we're going to the 438 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,680 Coltrane Church. So literally, you know, so your 439 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,240 mom, you know, he, he was straight up Christian. 440 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,720 So yes, he would it's, I mean, he start, he, he literally 441 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,360 started his own cult from this song. 442 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,480 And you think about now that, you know, spiritual jazz is like 443 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,360 a designation of a form of music, you know, you know, and 444 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,640 it's directly, this is the direct inspiration for that. 445 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,840 And I mean, the other thing that comes to mind this, I mean, as I 446 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,600 said, you know, I came up the time I came up with Reggie and 447 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,200 them. I mean, in those days, that was 448 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,160 the aspirational aspect of what train laid down was, you know, 449 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,280 permeated every everybody's playing. 450 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,080 And you know, it's, it's funny. You think about the generational 451 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,760 thing because right now it's about like music's kind of soft, 452 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,600 but there. But that era is really about, 453 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,640 you know, we, we want freedom now. 454 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,640 And so we put that energy out and it's also kind of like, 455 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,600 well, now it's it's it's the energy of now that might not be 456 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440 a tomorrow. So guys played like, OK, this 457 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,520 might be the last solo I ever take, you know, So it's just a 458 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,720 different, you know, so I mean, it's it's a different vibe that, 459 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,600 you know, as I said, that's not the vibe right now. 460 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:10,200 But because we're in a place where the political situation is 461 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,800 kind of going back towards that, you know, I kind of feel like 462 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,320 that vibe is going to make a comeback. 463 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,200 And hopefully, you know, I won't seem such like an outlier 464 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,720 anymore anyway. Well, that that seems like a 465 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:29,080 good segue to the Coltrane piece that I did want to play so a 466 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,920 lot. Supreme was released in 65. 467 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,200 This was recorded in 65. And I'm going to skip ahead at 468 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,080 the beginning. Here we go. 469 00:34:21,389 --> 00:34:47,560 The. You can't stop abruptly on that 470 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,239 one. You got to fade, Chad. 471 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,920 Did you ever play this on a Sunday ascension? 472 00:34:53,199 --> 00:35:01,680 No, I couldn't play this one. So this, this, I think this, you 473 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,040 know, album Ascension is a great illustration of that, you know, 474 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,520 commitment that Melvin, you just are describing that sort of, 475 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,040 this may be my last time, but it also speaks to something that 476 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,960 the three of you I know can can talk about, which is the 477 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,720 elasticization and the explosion of form during this time, right? 478 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,080 It is a it is something that everyone is interested in in 479 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,400 1965. Like even the even the people 480 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,080 who are skeptical of it have to at least be aware of it, you 481 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,400 know, And so, so let's talk about that. 482 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,680 How do you see this year as pivotal? 483 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,280 Do you know? I mean, Ornette had hit the 484 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,920 scene, you know, 5 or 6 years earlier. 485 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,840 So it had been in conversation, but I feel like it's really 486 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,520 coming to a critical mass in 1960. 5 Hey, looking at me 487 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,680 again. Well, first of all, that 488 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,640 listening to that head brought back memories because, you know, 489 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,960 and I'm also in a band called Harriet Tubman with the Brandon 490 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,920 Ross who's going to be playing me and him we're going to play 491 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,560 with without a later and drummer JT Lewis. 492 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,680 And from time to time we do these special projects, the next 493 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,120 one being we have a record coming out with Georgia and 494 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,360 Moldrow next year. But when, whenever somebody 495 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,880 comes up with an idea, they have to go do the homework. 496 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,560 And I had the idea that we should cover Ascension. 497 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,720 So I had to go do the homework and write, write the music down. 498 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,000 And yeah, that was, I guess that was our first record on 499 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:44,000 Sunnyside where we did, we did our version of Ascension and we 500 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:50,680 had the three of us +3 DJs. So this idea of elasticity of 501 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,200 form, where you really took advantage of that, you know, and 502 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,040 the idea that you can have multiple dimensions of sound and 503 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,160 multiple ways of looking at time is very important to the music. 504 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:10,000 And just it's a question of the different ways people think 505 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,840 about, you know, if I'm going to sit here and talking about 506 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,960 Reggie and the guys, you know, they hated the word jazz. 507 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,760 So I don't know if I can use that word if I'm when I'm 508 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,560 talking about them. But the the different ways of 509 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:29,280 thinking about black creative music where it really you can't 510 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,800 talk about the more stretched versions of the music without 511 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,240 connecting it to the the community situation and the 512 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:41,040 political situation as opposed to like the European way of 513 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,400 thinking that it where it's about some kind of formal thing 514 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,600 or whatever it is. I mean, yeah, it's about formal 515 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,080 things. I mean, listening to we listen 516 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,320 to Andrew, Andrew Hill, you know, of course it's about form, 517 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,760 but the form is really about what's going on in the world at 518 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,600 that point and just, you know, and really about, OK, this is 519 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,240 what the world looks like, which which is the other thing that, 520 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,160 you know, we take from what Arnett was doing and you know, 521 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,040 Isler and all of that. You know, I mean, just before I 522 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,760 hand it over the again, my other great idea was to cover free 523 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,000 jazz. So again, I had to sit down and 524 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,760 do the transcriptions for that. And in the process of making 525 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,640 those transcriptions, I realized something, you know, about 526 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,200 Arnett, Arnett. Arnett wasn't trying to be 527 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,120 weird. It was literally what he heard 528 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,640 and he was trying to get everybody else to be like, yo, 529 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,520 this is what I'm hearing. How come y'all can't hear it? 530 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,000 You know? So to me, that relates to the 531 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,880 idea of freedom. It's kind of like, yeah, we want 532 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,040 to be free. How come y'all can't just, you 533 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,000 know, why we got to like, why is all that this have to happen for 534 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,760 us to just be who we are, you know? 535 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,600 So I'll just leave it there. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to pick up 536 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,320 on what you were saying, Melvin. I remember when I, when I first 537 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,680 listened to this record, I couldn't stand it. 538 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,720 I didn't understand. I didn't hear it. 539 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:03,960 I didn't, you know, I didn't know what was going on. 540 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,440 I thought people were, weren't listening to each other. 541 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,360 You know, as I got older, I, I realized listening is a process. 542 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:18,360 And, you know, I feel like back in 65 was a time when people 543 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:23,040 were very open for some people were very open to listening to 544 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,680 things in new ways. You know, often Times Now you 545 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,920 listen to something like, oh, I like that, or I don't like that, 546 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,600 or I really don't like that, and then that's it. 547 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,800 But you know, listening is a process. 548 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,000 And with this record in particular, it took me maybe 3 549 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,040 or 4 years of repeatedly listening to the record to 550 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,920 understand that actually, no, everyone isn't displaying 551 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,600 whatever they want. This is just a different way of, 552 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,360 of approaching the music and there are all these motifs and 553 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,960 ideas happening, bouncing off 1 musician to another. 554 00:39:57,720 --> 00:39:59,640 And, you know, it just, it took some time. 555 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,880 And that's, that's one thing great about this festival at Big 556 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,840 Ears is that there's, it's unique in that there's all this 557 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,160 different types of music. And I think we need a lot more 558 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,080 of that, you know? And yeah, I'm going to still 559 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:22,920 leave it at that. You know, I have so many 560 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,960 directions I could go right now, but I think I'm going because 561 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:32,320 now, as you are here, as we're talking about form, and I think 562 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,120 this relates to what you said about Ornette too, because 563 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,640 Andrew Hill is another musical thinker who is is so original in 564 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,520 in his concept. And I don't think that he was 565 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,760 thinking, Oh, I'm going to stretch the, you know, like I'm 566 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,400 going to take this and stretch it out. 567 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,920 Like, I don't think that was really the intention. 568 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,920 I think it was really like, this is how I am hearing this. 569 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,640 This is, you know. So without further ado, this is 570 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:50,800 compulsion. The. 571 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,080 All right, yeah, so I do believe that there is there are copies 572 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,520 of Compulsion 00. Gem is shaking his head. 573 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,120 All right. And I have to say now, one time 574 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,480 I, I reviewed when I was at the New York Times, I reviewed your 575 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,400 Andrew Hill tribute at the Jazz Standard, a day apart from 576 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,040 seeing Andrew Hill and reviewing him playing trio at Trinity 577 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,520 Church. And I ran that as a double 578 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,240 review. And it was a such a heavy, 579 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,000 beautiful thing to think of your tribute and Andrew's music in 580 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:51,840 dialogue in that way. OK, so I made the Andrew Hill 581 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,080 record 'cause I joined this prominent rock band and 582 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,440 everybody was talking about me and it made me really 583 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,040 uncomfortable. So I thought I'll make a record, 584 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,200 you know, like somebody nobody talks about enough. 585 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,040 I mean, his music, her music, their music, whoever. 586 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,760 So I chose Andrew. We did Compulsion on the record. 587 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,120 We got asked, and this was, you know, Ben Goldberg, Scott 588 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,640 Amendola, Devin Hoff, Andrea Parkins, Bobby Bradford and my 589 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,000 brother's on some stuff. And we got asked to open for 590 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,120 Andrew at SF Jazz playing his music. 591 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,040 And I thought like, that's insane. 592 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,200 Like, I don't even know if we did justice to this music. 593 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:39,160 And you know, this piece trying to take down, there's this one 594 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,960 part where the horns all go. And I'm thinking like, OK, I 595 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,280 have to transcribe this. It was a challenge. 596 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,360 But this piece is so is so one of my favorite pieces of of 597 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,960 music and not just as an Andrew Hill piece. 598 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,880 It just I always loved this record And and this piece has so 599 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,240 much propulsion with the hand drums. 600 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:09,320 But I'm now I'm digressing. So we opened for, I mean, opened 601 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,280 for Andrew And, and I had met him only briefly like in 602 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:17,160 Macedonia at the festival ages before this, and he was just so 603 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,280 lovely. But I was nervous, you know, 604 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,480 really nervous to play our versions of his music. 605 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,880 But he was going to play it from that Timelines record. 606 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,360 It was his new record. He had this beautiful, I mean 607 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,320 this, that that band. And I got to hear Charles 608 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,120 Tolliver play, who I've never heard play live at that point, 609 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,920 you know, And then Andrew dug it. 610 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,400 He liked what we played, and he was really sweet. 611 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,680 And so flash forward to the gig. We were doing like 612 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,560 cryptogramophone records stuff at the Jazz Standard, which I 613 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,680 completely forgot about now until you mentioned this. 614 00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:02,160 And I found out that Andrew was going to play that gig, that 615 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,360 trio gig at Trinity Church. But I was scheduled to be at 616 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,920 Columbia University shilling for my own gig, which I couldn't say 617 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,920 no to. You know, I was helping out my 618 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,200 friends label his, his shows, my friend Jeff Gauthier. 619 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,800 So I missed it. And I knew he wasn't well. 620 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,800 And, you know, he, he passed not long after that. 621 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:38,360 And his and his wife and his music publisher came to hear us 622 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,960 play that music and said that Andrew wished he could be there. 623 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,200 And I don't know. Yeah. 624 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,360 Yeah, it was. It was just. 625 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:56,760 I forgot till you mention it. I felt just so much, I felt so 626 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,880 much of his spirit flowing through your ensemble and and it 627 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,800 really felt it truly felt in dialogue, you know, and and to 628 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:13,000 go from your your performance to his performance, I thought, am 629 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,160 I, is this irresponsible of me as a critic to be combining 630 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,480 these two things really when there's you know, but no, it it 631 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,400 made. He feels good 'cause Andrew dug 632 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,040 it, you know? But also think about I was 633 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,800 trying to do that piano thing that he's doing there. 634 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,880 I was actually being too literal. 635 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,360 Very likely, you know, 'cause I'm kind of get that way and I'm 636 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,760 think I'm doing it 'cause I'm paying homage to somebody and 637 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,880 being respectful. I think that's not what the 638 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:43,840 music's really about in this case. 639 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,040 It's like, so I just detuned. I used something to detune the 640 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:55,000 guitar and just play textures. And I'm glad that you heard it 641 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,040 that way, but I was really scared when I did it that it was 642 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,400 really pretentious or something. But I really also wanted all 643 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:08,760 these rock listener people to to think what, why is he doing 644 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,520 this? And who is this Andrew Hill, you 645 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:12,480 know? Yeah. 646 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,280 And yeah, Andrew obviously heard stuff his own way because 647 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,320 there's so much odd meter stuff that which which was just 648 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,880 starting to happen I think around that time in the music. 649 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,080 And then there's the freedom we're talking about with 650 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,560 Ascension, the explosion of form. 651 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,560 One thing I want to say about Ascension that's besides having 652 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,080 played it with Orchestrova Rova Saxophone Quartet, Orchestrova 653 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,880 Electric Ascension several times, is that that Coltrane on 654 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,800 this recording also embraced all these young voices, these guys 655 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,120 coming up in what we now look back as a free jazz scene. 656 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,320 I think he was very inspired by Sun Raw. 657 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,680 And it also sounds like a congregation. 658 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,600 It sounds like voices, you know, but there's John Chikai and 659 00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:01,240 Marion Brown and and that's how I found out about those guys is 660 00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:03,920 from this record. And I think it's, it's about the 661 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,320 immediate musical community that was happening at the same time 662 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,280 and, and furthering trying to push everyone, lift everyone and 663 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,520 move them forward, it seems. Yeah. 664 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,320 And, and that idea that what's happening with musical form is 665 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,960 so manifold, right? It's like some people are really 666 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,480 going for absolute freedom of expression and others like 667 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,440 Andrew are doing all these like interesting and really complex 668 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,880 things with elasticity and like metric stuff. 669 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,600 And, and then there's one of the younger musicians who was in 670 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,240 Coltrane Circle. Well, I, I was at one point 671 00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:46,360 going to play Archie Shep's Malcolm, Malcolm Semper Malcolm 672 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,200 on this panel because February of 1965, Malcolm X is 673 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,600 assassinated and Archie Shep includes that poem on his album 674 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,960 Fire Music. It's a little, I think that's a 675 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,960 piece that I don't want to play an excerpt of. 676 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,440 So I'm not going to play it at all. 677 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,280 I think everyone should just seek it out. 678 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,000 Fire Music is a really amazing album. 679 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,080 And that track, I mean, I, what more can you say about that, 680 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,120 right? So instead I'm going to play 681 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,760 something by Albert Eiler. This is spirits. 682 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:49,280 Spirits rejoice. Music. 683 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,360 Yeah. OK. 684 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,320 I feel like I have to go to Melvin first on this one. 685 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,000 Well, a few memories. I mean, touching on I'm going to 686 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,960 go backwards and football, touching on the circle of young 687 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,280 musicians around Coltrane and Ascension era. 688 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,360 I mentioned, you know, Bob Reggie is one of the big guys in 689 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,200 the neighborhood who was born for us. 690 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,240 The local band in my neighborhood was a band called 691 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:18,360 BT Express. That was, you know, people know 692 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,080 them now. It's the great funk band, but 693 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:26,600 their horn arranger was a man named Carlos Ward, and Carlos 694 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,760 was also one of one of our mentors in the neighborhood. 695 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,520 So that's, you know, just thinking about that, would you 696 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,920 know, I mean, you know, and people didn't know that. 697 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,280 I mean, he played with Abdullah Ibrahim from years, but people 698 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,640 didn't know the train side. So the record that came out a 699 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,960 couple of years ago and just, and of course, listening to that 700 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,600 and thinking, hearing Isla reminds me of, you know, the 701 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,720 many years I've played, spent playing with Ronald Shannon 702 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:56,240 Jackson, who was Isla's drummer for a long time. 703 00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:00,080 And what I remember him telling me that, you know, they were 704 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,040 playing New York and Train would drive up from Philly to come 705 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,920 hear them. And, you know, he was so 706 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,080 avant-garde that, you know, the club wouldn't always be full and 707 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,000 Train would be the one that would pay the band. 708 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,800 That's how much Train love dialer, you know what I mean? 709 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,840 And just thinking, you know, and even listening to this music 710 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,760 now, you know, thinking about all the guys in the Lower East 711 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,040 Side, Will Parker and that whole crew of guys, this music is just 712 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,000 a touch tone for that whole, you know, for a whole section of 713 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,960 what we do, you know, it's just, you know, and. 714 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,000 You know, we began this panel with a March, right? 715 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,560 And we're, we're winding down here with another March, but 716 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,520 with a, you know, when you talk about what Albert Isiler does 717 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,480 with that, that form, it has a completely different 718 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,800 connotation, you know? And you know, that particular 719 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,160 piece, he's sort of borrowing a bit from Lamar Soleil's, you 720 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,760 know, and there's all this, it's an anthem, right? 721 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,360 But it's also a supplication of some kind. 722 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,280 And Nels Chad, you've, you've played music of this quality as 723 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,480 well. Can you talk about that 724 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,160 intention in Albert Eiler's music and, and what it what it 725 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,000 meant when it was? Because 65 is really the year 726 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,960 that that expression from him breaks open, you know? 727 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:24,240 Yeah, I, I worked a little over 10 years with Henry Grimes, who 728 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:30,280 played with Albert Eiler, and I really got a little taste of 729 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,840 just the musical integrity and, and spirituality that, that, 730 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,480 that music had working with Henry. 731 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,440 But the point that that I want to make is that, you know, we're 732 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,720 talking about recorded music and we're talking about what's on 733 00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,480 record. But there's so much music and so 734 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,360 many musicians that we're playing that we don't, we don't 735 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,240 have a, a record of it. But that doesn't mean that that 736 00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:57,640 music wasn't important or valid. And one person I'm going to just 737 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:03,800 talk about briefly is, you know, Henry had a a twin brother whose 738 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:12,680 name was Leon Grimes and Leon, they weren't identical twins, 739 00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:18,360 You know, they look differently. But I talked to Odin Pope and he 740 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:25,440 told me that he and Leon Grimes and John Coltrane used to 741 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,760 practice together and they used to study together with the the 742 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:37,080 legendary Hassan and Leon blew all of them out the water, you 743 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,200 know, and this is someone who's never made a record and 744 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,400 unfortunately wounded up in in prison. 745 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:48,240 And he also had some mental health challenges that, you 746 00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:54,120 know, similar to Henry and, you know, spent his entire life in 747 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,600 prison. So we we don't really know so. 748 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,000 Yeah, no. Well, thank you first of all for 749 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,320 that necessary point about how the albums are really just one, 750 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,440 one lens through which to look at this history. 751 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,080 You know, it's a convenient lens. 752 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,800 You understand why we do, why we use them the way we do. 753 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,760 But that's a really important, as I said, essential point. 754 00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,640 Speaking of albums, you mentioned the legendary Hassan. 755 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,360 That's another album that comes out in 1965, Max Roche featuring 756 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,600 the legendary Hassan, You know, and we don't have time to play 757 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,680 music. But at the very end of 1965, 758 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaking of Blue Note Records, Don Cherry Records Complete 759 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:38,840 Communion. The album comes out the 760 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,160 following year, but that's another 1965 album, Nina Simone. 761 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:48,240 And and this is not Blue Note, but I feel like maybe in the 762 00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:52,280 interest of like sending us out into our big ears experience 763 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,000 today with like just positivity and radiance, maybe we'll hear a 764 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,200 bit of a very famous track by Nina Simone released in 1965. 765 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,720 Birds flying, how you know how I feel. 766 00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:13,200 Sun in the sky. How you know how I feel? 767 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,920 It's drifting on by. You know how I feel. 768 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,960 It's a new dawn. It's a new day. 769 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,080 It's a new life for me. Yeah, it's a new dawn. 770 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,840 It's a new day. It's a new life for me. 771 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:53,480 And I'm feeling good. Fish in the sea, you know how I 772 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:59,400 feel. River running free, You know how 773 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:05,520 I feel. Blossom on the tree, You know 774 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,920 how I feel. It's a new Dome. 775 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,760 It's a new day. It's a new life. 776 00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,800 All right, yeah, there's there's blooms on the trees in downtown 777 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,960 Knoxville. We've got a lot of beautiful 778 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,000 music to hear today. If any of you has anything to 779 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,320 say about Nina or that track, please do. 780 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,200 Otherwise, I'm just going to thank y'all. 781 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,840 And I just I have I have restrained myself this whole 782 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,800 time from saying it. But as I look at the three of 783 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,800 you, these brilliant, brilliant artists, when are y'all going to 784 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,760 make a record as a rhythm section 'cause this is going to 785 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,520 be this is some great shit right here. 786 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,560 I'm I'm putting that. You know what? 787 00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,800 What is it called when you when you say it and put it out in the 788 00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:01,480 world? Yeah, I'm manifesting this trio 789 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,080 right here. But for the moment, I want you 790 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,600 all to give these gentlemen the hugest round of applause. 791 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:19,040 Thank you so much. Big Ears Conversations about 792 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,640 Music is a production of Big Ears Festival. 793 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,400 I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. The show was produced by Matt 794 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,080 Marowitz. This episode was edited by 795 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,080 Trevor Smith and Delilah Ryder. Ashley Capps is the executive 796 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,000 and artistic director of Big Ears. 797 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:40,000 Big Ears 2026 will take place March 26th through 292026 in 798 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,320 Knoxville, TN. For more information and 799 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,800 festival updates, visit bigearsfestival.org. 800 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,960 Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those ears wide 801 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:53,160 open.