1 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,480 Welcome to BIG Ears conversations about music. 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,080 I'm your host, Sarah Gilletti. Pat Metheny requires almost no 3 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:21,560 introduction. For more than 5 decades, he's 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,080 been a defining voice on the guitar, possessed of a singular, 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,440 instantly recognizable sound. And even in his most dazzling 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,640 moments, there's nearly always a melody guiding the way. 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,880 Over the years, Metheny's played with everyone from Joni Mitchell 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,040 and Jim Hall to Ornett Coleman, Jocko Pistorius, Charlie Haden 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,680 and beyond. Here he talks with journalist 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Nate Shannon about his heroes who later became his friends. 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,840 He also speaks of generational talents who've defined many of 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,880 his memorable collaborations. Brad Mehldau, Antonio Sanchez, 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,760 Christian McBride, and from the new breed of Young Lions. 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:05,280 In particular, his fondness for drummer Joe Dyson that discusses 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,960 the growth he's experienced touring the world as a solo 16 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:12,600 guitarist in recent years, how he values sincerity in music and 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,480 how hard it is to write one really good song. 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,160 Finally, he acknowledges how excited he is to make his big 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,240 year's debut in 2026. Let's listen in. 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,640 The Pat It's been a while. It's so good to. 21 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:46,680 Catch up with you. How you doing? 22 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,440 I'm doing pretty well. I was thinking about that. 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Before. Going out on this side. 24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,120 Eye tour, you did a. Whole lot of dates with. 25 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,640 Solo acoustic guitar. And I have to imagine that night 26 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,240 after night, being in these rooms with a lot of people, and 27 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,320 then just being yourself on stage with your instrument 28 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,800 there. There's something so elemental 29 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,520 about that. I wondered if you can speak. 30 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,920 To. The sort of emotional current or 31 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,760 psychic energy of that, just doing that for so long and and 32 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,280 having it be. So exposed. 33 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:27,720 Well exposed. Doesn't feel like the right 34 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,000 word, but maybe it is. Well, it certainly was exposed. 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,840 I mean, you know, it's like the concert did a lot of different 36 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,120 things, but. At least 2 thirds 3/4. 37 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,560 Of it maybe was just sitting there playing the a guitar. 38 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:43,920 I mean, there were. Different guitars that. 39 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:46,120 Came and went. And you're right, it was a lot 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,360 of gigs at the. End I counted them all up, it 41 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,680 was 210 concerts total. It's just kind of always been 42 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,320 this thing that was this useful translation device for ideas. 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,760 And I mean, it really did begin with this whole baritone guitar 44 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,040 thing, which was 1 quiet night about 20 years ago. 45 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,480 This thing of tuning this guitar in this particular way that I 46 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,160 had remembered from a guy showing me in in Missouri really 47 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,520 when I first. Started that just. 48 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,720 Kind of opened up a sense of what solo guitar might be that 49 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:45,690 was different. I'm always kind of thinking 50 00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:49,370 about orchestration in a way, the thing of being able. 51 00:03:49,370 --> 00:03:52,850 To have a really low. Note with these different kinds 52 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:55,850 of voicings, really. Just was like, wow, that's. 53 00:03:55,850 --> 00:03:58,410 Fascinating. And that opened. 54 00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:01,170 Up this idea. Of playing solo, which resulted 55 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:04,130 first in that record and then the the one that followed it. 56 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,240 And I kind of made an error. My hero. 57 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,120 Everybody knows Wes Montgomery, right? 58 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,560 Wes was one of those. Guys, he. 59 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,880 Rarely made any mistakes. It's hard to find. 60 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,000 Them there are a couple but that. 61 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,440 Became a thing for me where I don't mess up too much, but when 62 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,880 you're playing solo, man. I could play 10,000. 63 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,760 Notes. And if I get one in there, it's 64 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,640 like my kids will come up afterwards. 65 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:37,400 Dad, that was great, but it. Seems like on that one tune, you 66 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,120 know, and I'm like. You know I should have. 67 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,000 Been like, you know, miles or, or like even SKO, it's like, you 68 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,360 know, it's, it's fine because. Part of the. 69 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,320 Sound is like kind of, you know, it's kind of like there's a. 70 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,200 Lot of wiggle. Room and there's not a whole. 71 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,720 Lot of wiggle. Room in my general thing and 72 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,960 that in the early going was like, wow, I, you know. 73 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,120 I have to be. Like almost 100% all the time. 74 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,280 Because it's so exposed. And then the other thing. 75 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,840 If I think about across. The 210. 76 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:14,320 Gigs. There's just many levels. 77 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,240 Of advancement in terms of playing the instrument. 78 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,840 Well, that's interesting that. I had never gotten to before 79 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:24,160 because I had just never had the occasion to really work on it 80 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:38,640 like that. So by the end, I mean, even even 81 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,240 now, I can play things that I just couldn't have played. 82 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,000 Three years ago. I mean lots of things. 83 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,880 This wasn't a pandemic project for you necessarily, right? 84 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,040 Because it's the solitary. Instrument and it's the focus on 85 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,120 clarity and a new level of fundamentals. 86 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,720 If you had told me this is the thing that Pat brought out of 87 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,480 the pandemic, I would say, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, but it's 88 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,680 not that. No, not at all. 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,880 I mean, I kind of started it. I think it was 2. 1019 when I 90 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,360 did. The trial gigs. 91 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,280 At that point, that was kind of when I realized why I should do 92 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,800 this. And everything talking about the 93 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,200 pandemic, I mean, everything got so jumbled after that in terms 94 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,960 touring and. Was sort of like this. 95 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,680 Regrouping of all kinds of. Stuff so the solo. 96 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,480 Thing kind of got pushed back as an idea of something to do, and 97 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,120 then I was only going to do 40 and it was interesting because 98 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,240 kind of the word. Got out that it was. 99 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,400 Something really different in terms of a kind of presentation 100 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,320 that I had done and it just became something where they kept 101 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,160 saying there were more opportunities to play and it 102 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,240 then it just kept going and going and it was incredible for 103 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,880 me, man, it was so fun and once I kind of. 104 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,680 Got used to it. I mean, my main gig from really 105 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,280 almost the beginning has been bandleader, you know, I mean 106 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:12,320 that that's been my job really, and. 107 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,720 What comes with? That when I think about the 108 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,640 range of people that. I've had. 109 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,640 Kind of under my wing in a way, day in and day out. 110 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,920 I mean, man. This was great because all I 111 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,240 really had to worry. About was like, you know. 112 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,240 What do I got to do to play good? 113 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,560 Tonight and I. Really got to the. 114 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Point where I was like wow, this is this is cool and I was really 115 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:49,000 sad when it ended actually. I'm curious about something you 116 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,120 said regarding the what you can do on the instrument. 117 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,520 Just developing this new vocabulary. 118 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,720 It. So that then comes with you when 119 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,840 you go back to band leading, right? 120 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,840 Do you feel that it's fundamentally sort of deepened 121 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,280 or altered your playing in some way? 122 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,960 I would say that an experience like that for me was just an 123 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,240 incredible growing experience. I could even say character 124 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,600 building experience by. Virtue of the fact that. 125 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,360 I mean, the last gig was Carnegie Hall, and it was 126 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,920 Carnegie Hall type. Places all over the world. 127 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:31,040 For thousands of people, you know, it's kind of huge in a way 128 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,200 to walk there and you know, with an instrument and just start 129 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,720 playing for not a tune or a couple tunes, but for like a 130 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,720 couple hours. And the best part of it for me? 131 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,800 Was that after a while? It's really a viable another way 132 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,880 of thinking for me in terms of how to how to be as a musician 133 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,520 and I had had a baritone nylon. Guitar for a while. 134 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,840 But I could never get it to sound right because of the 135 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,840 strings and sort. Of just as the tour. 136 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,720 Began. I kind of cracked. 137 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,000 That code. And suddenly I had this what was 138 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,960 a completely new instrument for me, and that resulted in that 139 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,280 moondial record. Yeah, which is representative. 140 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,960 Of a lot of the. Things that I'm talking about, 141 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:38,080 I couldn't have done that record until that point in the tour, 142 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,360 even with that instrument. And I love that idea of 143 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,680 something sort of being unlocked, you know, where you're 144 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:47,600 like, oh, and then having right, having that documentation. 145 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:55,080 Now you mentioned 2019 as a moment when you were beginning 146 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,520 to experiment and and that's. Also a year that I. 147 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,000 Have in my mind because I just looked it up on my calendar. 148 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,800 I saw. An early version of Side Eye at 149 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,080 Sony Hall on September 12th, 2019. 150 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,640 And so this was with James Francis and Marcus Gilmore, and 151 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,960 I did not know. What to expect? 152 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,680 From this ensemble, and it was. Such a beautiful. 153 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:35,240 Performance and so just immersive. 154 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,800 And then subsequently that. I think that whole run provided 155 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,000 some of the material for the album that came out. 156 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,200 Well, the album that came out is from that gig. 157 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,960 On the one hand, it is a very new proposition, and on the 158 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,880 other hand. It is so like. 159 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,200 Quintessentially you, both in terms of the material and the 160 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,440 sound world this now has. Toured widely? 161 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,200 You're about to. Release another album with 162 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,160 different collaborators but the same. 163 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,120 Side eye project. And I'd love to hear. 164 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,840 You talk about how? Well, first of all, what? 165 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,480 Led you to. This concept and then how? 166 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,480 It's evolved over these. Last 5-6 years. 167 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:53,320 Well, the basic idea was. A good chunk of my early thing 168 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,600 around Kansas City was organ trio type stuff and I've. 169 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,680 Always liked the idea of that. Of kind of one person sort of 170 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,600 being in charge of everything really in terms of harmony and 171 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,280 baselines and all that. And also it seemed to me like. 172 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,200 The tech. Had evolved to the point where 173 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,760 it didn't. Necessarily have to be exactly. 174 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,320 You know AB3 baseline or you know any? 175 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,320 Aspect of exactly. What an organ trio thing would 176 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,080 be. That it could. 177 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,320 Be a lot of different things. But that idea was a. 178 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,240 Kind of cool idea. So that was kind of the the, the 179 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,080 impetus of it. And at the same time, I mean, I 180 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,520 was such a beneficiary of. Gary Burton, Steve Swallow, 181 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,120 Herbie. On and on, all the Jack, all the 182 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,040 incredible guys that were 1012 years older than me that that 183 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,840 gave me the chance to play and be on band stands with them. 184 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,360 And I first kind of experienced that. 185 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,800 You know, at the time I came along, there was one other kind 186 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,040 of immediate guy and that was my buddy Jocko. 187 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:11,240 And then there was a long period where it was really hard to find 188 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:17,600 people kind of almost right on cue at the same range that Jack 189 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,920 and Gary and all those guys were to me came along. 190 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:27,600 These guys, Brad, Antonio, Christian, Brian, Larry 191 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,760 Grenadier, Bill Stewart, all. Those guys, it was sort of like. 192 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,960 Oh, there's my. Tribe, there's those guys like. 193 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,920 Man, I've been waiting for you guys. 194 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,440 And yeah, the one exception to that is Kenny Garrett, who to me 195 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,800 is. Like, truly the real deal. 196 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,960 But really it was those guys who are in that particular age range 197 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,080 where it was like, oh, yeah. And so then there's kind of been 198 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,480 to me another lull after them. So I get a lot of people. 199 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,280 Up here at my place. Just to play because I. 200 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,680 Really want to find people and it's really hard to find people. 201 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,080 It's not hard at all now to find people who can play. 202 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Really complicated. Shit, that's to find. 203 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,680 People who can do that and then also just play the melody and 204 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,640 have it mean something is almost impossible for me. 205 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,720 So it's an interesting time because so, so often I hear 206 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,480 musicians and I think, well, what is your message to me in 207 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,480 all this? And mostly. 208 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,800 What I hear is. My message is that I am a really 209 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,400 good musician and I can I can really play my instrument. 210 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:41,040 That message is really not something that, you know, at 211 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,520 least for me is that compelling to listen to over and over 212 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,560 again. It's it's fun at the time. 213 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,600 I mean, you know, I go hear people play and I go wow, you 214 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,200 know, but it's a little bit like going to the Knicks game or 215 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,560 something. It's kind of that was amazing. 216 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,400 And then, you know, you go do whatever and you know, I I tend 217 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:06,080 to like, you know, I'm kind of always referencing, you know, 218 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,080 the the real thing And I was fortunate to be around it a lot, 219 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,040 you know, with Paul Blay or, you know, I mean on and on Sonny 220 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Rollins or net Gary, you know, swallowed. 221 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,880 You know, it's like, man, there's so much about. 222 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,640 What that is, that is. So much more than the fact. 223 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,040 That yeah, they play great. Yeah. 224 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,520 And in in all of those cases you can just say the name and you 225 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:30,880 get. This whole world. 226 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,120 In your mind of what that means, you say Joe Henderson. 227 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,800 It's like, Oh, yeah, I know what that means, you know? 228 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:44,400 And so, you know, not saying that that can't emerge from 229 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,400 somebody who starts, you know, in that kind of other zone, but 230 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,320 that's what I'm looking for. Always. 231 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Is something like that, but at the same time, my particular 232 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:02,400 thing is much harder than people often think because I think that 233 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,880 it sometimes it sounds easier than it is in a way. 234 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,000 I've always gotten a kick out of watching real hardcore bebop 235 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,360 guys, you know, stumble. All over the bridge to. 236 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,720 James Because it's like, you know, it's really hard to do 237 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,520 that in a way, you know, and and so it's a really tough set of 238 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,680 circumstances. But you know, for me, it all 239 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,040 starts with the drums. And right now there are so many 240 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,480 good drummers. I mean, that's the thing that is 241 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,680 really exciting to me. Is that there are like 6 guys 242 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,320 right now? I could hire in a second and I 243 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,480 would be. Totally happy with them so. 244 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,840 That's really something, but there's one. 245 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,400 Guy that really. Stands out and that's Joe Dyson, 246 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,880 who for me is I. You know, I thought with 247 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,920 Antonio, I had the guy, you know, I was going to get one guy 248 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,560 like that in my life, you know that. 249 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,200 The guy that. I always thought would never be 250 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,000 born, you know, and that was Antonio. 251 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,960 And I mean, I was on the bandstand with this guy for 20 252 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,319 years and I can think of 2 bars that were not perfect. 253 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:15,240 I mean, I've never seen any musician that has that kind of 254 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,200 consistency. With a clock. 255 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,359 I mean it's just it's like mind boggling what they got. 256 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,560 Yeah. And and then but at the same 257 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,400 time also. So like flowing? 258 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:27,119 And. Got a? 259 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,400 Lot to talk about there's. He's always saying stuff and you 260 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:32,760 know, it's like. He's one of those. 261 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,000 Guys, I mean, you know, I can like smell his mom's cooking and 262 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,960 stuff. You know, it's like, really, 263 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,080 he's got a thing. Besides the fact that he's. 264 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,640 You know, kind of technically probably one of the greatest 265 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,800 drummers of all time, you know, but it's like, that's not even 266 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,160 what's so cool. About it. 267 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,200 And Joe, in a completely different way, is like that, 268 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,560 too. And so it's like, yeah, I mean, 269 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,920 I'm just kind of basking in the drums. 270 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,120 I mean, in a lot of ways. I mean, all I really want to do 271 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:44,560 is play with the drums. I have a lot. 272 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,960 Of I was mentioning about getting people to come up here, 273 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:52,560 mostly it's drummers and me and that's my favorite stuff to 274 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:58,120 listen to is just bar and drums. I don't know that it's a a 275 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,160 platform that has much broad. Appeal. 276 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,160 But at least for me. That's really what it. 277 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,120 Is is the drums and in in the case of pretty much all other 278 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,920 instruments, it's a struggle for me now to find fine cads. 279 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,280 That's yeah, that's so interesting. 280 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,400 Because, as you say, there's. So much proficiency everywhere 281 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:24,080 and there's also a kind of multi fluency that and I want to talk. 282 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,920 About that a little, because this is a big. 283 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Part of. What the generation that that? 284 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:36,000 You're a part of brought to the. Scene is this sort of? 285 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,920 Ability to be authoritative. Playing the Blues and playing 286 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,880 something that is a little more folk oriented and playing 287 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,720 something that's like very complex formally and doing 288 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,120 something that. Is like, really? 289 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,880 Seriously. Brazilian that you know, just 290 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,240 all of these different kinds of modalities, this idea that you 291 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,440 can do that without going into. A bag necessarily, right? 292 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,480 But. But just be flexible and and 293 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,800 really kind of do all of that. I really associate. 294 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,960 That development with people that. 295 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:12,840 You've. Played with forever and you know 296 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,280 some of some of whom we sadly. Lost recently like Jack. 297 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:17,360 Jack. Dejanette. 298 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,520 This generational thing, and it's interesting to me. 299 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,440 Because that. Multi fluency is has become so 300 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,240 much more common. But what I hear you saying is 301 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,800 that it's not just. About that, you also have to. 302 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,920 Have a message and you have to have a kind of emotional truth. 303 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,280 Am I paraphrasing correctly there? 304 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,680 Yeah. It is an interesting thing 305 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,320 because it's sort of. Like what are we all? 306 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,800 Doing here anyway. I mean what? 307 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,120 What what's what's what is? This, you know, I mean, what is 308 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:17,120 music where you know, and music is something that is self 309 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:22,120 evidently transcendent of anything else in this plane of 310 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,520 our existence. You know, it's just not like 311 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:50,200 anything else. It's a interesting puzzle that 312 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,600 reveals to me more and more as. The years go by. 313 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:57,720 Kind of essential information. And it's that essential 314 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,520 information that I'm looking for from the musicians that I want 315 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,880 to invest my ears in, you know, really and. 316 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,480 That's. True for me as a fan as much as 317 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,960 it is as somebody who's going to be on a bandstand with somebody 318 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,440 and when I hear. It I get so excited. 319 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,400 You know, it's like, you know, it makes me think, well, I'm not 320 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,280 crazy. Like, for instance, Emmanuel 321 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,400 Wilkins. His first, That first record, I 322 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,240 was like, wow. They're like like that. 323 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,800 You guys. That's what I'm talking about. 324 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,120 There's so many guys now. Everybody writes their own tunes 325 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,440 and I'm like, it's. Hard to write a good. 326 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,440 Tune you got to be. Careful with that. 327 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,480 Stuff, you know, it's serious. People sometimes are surprised 328 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,960 when I tell them it's like, yeah, you know, OK, I'm going to 329 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,640 write 10 tunes and I'm going to. Throw away. 330 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,240 Seven or eight of them and they're fine. 331 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,200 It's not like there's anything wrong. 332 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,520 It's that if I don't remember them then they're not worth 333 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,480 doing. That's such a basic. 334 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,080 Thing it's like, yeah, right. And I mean, I hear so much music 335 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,760 kind of in our general community. 336 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,280 It's like, man, I don't think I could remember that for like one 337 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,800 second after I heard it. And a lot of it to me sounds 338 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,120 melodically like harmony parts more than melodies too. 339 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:28,280 Because I mean, as much as harmony and rhythm can be really 340 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,400 discussed, melody is like this. X Factor part of it all that 341 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,680 that. You know, it can show up in so 342 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,120 many different ways. I mean, it's not as simple as, 343 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,120 like, you know, OK, we're going to be melodic now. 344 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,040 I mean, being melodic is different than actually melody. 345 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,720 And. Oh, OK. 346 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,880 Ornette was really like yeah. I was going to say Ornette. 347 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,320 This is all pointing towards Ornette for me. 348 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,000 The. But you know also. 349 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,480 I think it shows up. In many, many different ways. 350 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:31,960 And it's very elusive to, to, to me even to like, you know, like, 351 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,240 OK, what am I talking about here? 352 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,280 And if I had to like, you know, give a lecture on it, I don't 353 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,680 think I could, I don't think. I could say, well it's because 354 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,040 of this. That and the other thing. 355 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,480 It's it's. You know. 356 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,640 It's the. It's the. 357 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,480 Part of music that you can't really breakdown. 358 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:17,110 I should mention the big ears. Festival. 359 00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:19,670 Because we are on the Big Ears podcast and there are some 360 00:25:19,670 --> 00:25:21,670 examples. Of people your. 361 00:25:21,670 --> 00:25:24,110 Friend John Zorn is another example. 362 00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:26,510 I think of someone who you know not. 363 00:25:26,510 --> 00:25:28,110 Always. But he is. 364 00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:32,720 He can really get into like, deep melody. 365 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,000 Man, he is to me. I mean, I know people know John. 366 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,560 I know he's even very well known. 367 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,280 He is like the most underrated cat on the planet, man. 368 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,000 Yeah, right. I mean, you know, I. 369 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,560 Get I every every. Year or so he sends me like, 370 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,800 well, this. Is what I did. 371 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,560 This year and it's like 14 CDs and with, you know, an opera and 372 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,760 two string quartets and, you know, and they're all killing 373 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,120 and they all have great album covers and you know it. 374 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,480 I mean, I think, man, what have I done this year? 375 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,600 It's the the, the focus and the. Output you're right, is. 376 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,000 Unbelievable. Incredible. 377 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,000 And I have been at Big Ears when he has done actually twice now 378 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,520 that that he's done, you know, these big residencies where he 379 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,720 has, you know, a whole bunch of different ensembles playing his 380 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,800 music. And, you know, he plays in some 381 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,840 and then in others. He's conducting and. 382 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,280 So have you played? The Big Gears festival before. 383 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,160 I think so. I'm trying to remember though, 384 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,000 because I not since it's become what it is now, which is sort of 385 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:48,480 this destination of great music. I mean, it's really prestigious 386 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,960 and and rightly so, world known thing that people come from all 387 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,680 over. I mean, I've heard from people, 388 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,640 you know, like, you know, in Norway and Japan who are like, 389 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,320 oh, we're coming to big ears, you know, this year. 390 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,520 We'll see you there. You know, it's like a thing as 391 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,120 you know, as you all know and you know, man. 392 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,200 I got to say. As somebody from Missouri to see 393 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,520 that happening in Knoxville is man points for all in concerned, 394 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,560 you know, I mean. It's. 395 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,880 Just incredible. It's open and so. 396 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,280 I feel like it's a wonderful. Place for you to be. 397 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,560 Passing through because I think of of you as one of those 398 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,000 people. Just to this. 399 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,080 Is kind of the way. You. 400 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,160 You. Hear things is with that 401 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,640 openness and flexibility and sincerity, right? 402 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,240 You just use the word. That is the one which. 403 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,520 Is I do. Like music that is sincere as 404 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,720 opposed to music that is ironic. Or there's a million other kind 405 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,440 of variations that take you away from sincerity, which is a 406 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,440 dangerous place to live. As a. 407 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,200 Musician or as a somebody who's trying to get a certain. 408 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,480 Vibe out there because. You're not shielded by irony. 409 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,440 And I mean, you know. People I've, I've said. 410 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,320 This many times, I mean a model for me, a huge model. 411 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,160 And this was true at the times. Karen Carpenter. 412 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,560 I mean, to me, that's what a musician is. 413 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,240 And wow. You know, at the time it was 414 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,160 like, oh man, that's so corny. And I'm like, man, if you think 415 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,120 that's corny, there's something wrong with you. 416 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:40,840 After long enough of being alone, everyone must face their 417 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:48,160 share of love. She is kill and she's one of 418 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,720 those musicians. Too, as the years go. 419 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,800 By and you. Hear that you go. 420 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,560 It's. Even better than I thought it 421 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,000 was. I mean, you know, but it's like 422 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,800 there is not one drop of anything but the real deal 423 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,880 coming from her there. It's so interesting that you 424 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,200 mention her. Because I have two daughters. 425 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,560 And they both love to sing and and the. 426 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,880 Carpenters were very. You know, they were very 427 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,720 important to my parents who were both singers and so sometime. 428 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,640 Last year I sat. Down my older daughter who is, 429 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,240 you know, doing a lot of choral singing and I said, hey, I want 430 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,080 you to listen to. This this track. 431 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,360 And just, you know, just kind of like hear what's happening on 432 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,200 this And I played her. They long to be close to you and 433 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,560 you know that breakdown towards the end where we get into the 434 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,160 the brilliant stacked vocal harmony, you know this 435 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,000 incredible. It's like operatic on. 436 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:52,200 The day that you were born, the angels got together and decided 437 00:29:52,200 --> 00:30:09,800 to create a dream come true. And she didn't have much to. 438 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,760 Say, but I could tell. She was just like, oh. 439 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,240 And I feel like not enough people or some folks have 440 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,920 forgotten that and some others have not encountered it. 441 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,800 So I'm glad you mentioned. That's the real shit. 442 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,960 There's no filter there. There's no gauze in front of 443 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,520 that. There's a vulnerability. 444 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,960 To it right because it's. Like there's just no armor. 445 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,520 So, so yeah, that's. Always been a little bit of a 446 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,040 thing for me, of I mean of course. 447 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,720 We all hear stuff. Differently, you know, and there 448 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,480 have been many, many times too, I've been wrong. 449 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600 Like, oh man, I don't think, I don't think that's. 450 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:45,960 Really. Whatever. 451 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,280 And then a couple. Years later, it's like, why? 452 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,520 Wait a minute. Can you name an example of 453 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,040 something you came around on? Lady Gaga first I was like, 454 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,680 what? Is this man, you know, she kind 455 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,080 of, you know what is that man? She's incredible. 456 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,760 She's an amazing singer, an incredible musician. 457 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,000 And I completely missed it. You almost. 458 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Always have to hear. Something a bunch of times. 459 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,480 Before you really get it. And there's always kind of like 460 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,800 the sort of, I mean, especially now we're in an, I mean, it used 461 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,120 to. Be like needle drop. 462 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,920 And now it's like, you know, it's not even half a second. 463 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,520 I identify with what you're saying about sometimes needing 464 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,400 to hear something a bunch of times. 465 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,560 But you also have had at least a couple of. 466 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,960 Examples. And I'll name 1 where something 467 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,840 you heard something for just a moment and it was like 468 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,400 electricity ran through you. The example you've named in 469 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,080 conversation was hearing Brad Mehldau's solo on a Joshua 470 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,200 Redmond quartet song and just knowing immediately. 471 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,280 Like whoever that is. Like he's. 472 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,040 Got the thing that I, that I, you know, and so I, I, I wonder 473 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,720 if you can name any more recent examples of that where you, you 474 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,840 heard something and it, you just knew right away. 475 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:11,440 I wish I could. Man, you know that may be the 476 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,200 last time that happened. That's interesting. 477 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,480 Wow. And, you know, it's funny, I, I, 478 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,160 I really, I mean, you know, there's, I mean, again, I've 479 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,760 probably missed all kinds of stuff, but you're exactly right. 480 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,080 I mean, that was like within half a. 481 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,480 Chorus. I was like wait. 482 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:56,400 A minute I'm pulling over. There's been a lot of. 483 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,600 Great stuff, Brad is. Kind of in some ways. 484 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,920 I don't want to say he's the last chapter in a book. 485 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,200 It just feels so good, you know, the way he plays. 486 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,520 But. He. 487 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,640 Has really and continues to because he's just getting better 488 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,720 all the time. He's defined a a a world he's 489 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,040 in. He's one of those guys like Joe 490 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,600 Henderson, Brad Mehldau. I mean, it's like you just say 491 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,400 the name and there's. This universe appears. 492 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,680 And I mean there's. Lots of people I like. 493 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,240 And I that and that I will continue to hire and work with 494 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,720 and explore and and all that. But even when I was coming up in 495 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,880 Kansas City, I wasn't thinking about like the other guys 496 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,840 around. I was thinking about Wes 497 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,640 Montgomery and. Compared to that, I sucked. 498 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,400 You know, and, and, and, you know, I'm thinking about Bach 499 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,360 and I'm thinking about, you know, I, I, I, I don't think of 500 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,840 it. I mean, to me, the standards in 501 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,040 music are very clear. And those standards are very 502 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,360 high. Yeah. 503 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,000 And you know, the the the thing for me is that I've just been so 504 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,639 lucky to be around some of the the actual cats men and a lot 505 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,400 and learn from and and shared this bandstand with and and 506 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,840 became also very, very close friends with. 507 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,560 I mean, you mentioned Jack. I mean, you know, we were next 508 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,440 door neighbors. For 40 years, I was. 509 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,960 Me and Terry Lynn were there at the hospital when he, you know, 510 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,600 passed. And yeah, I mean, it was a very, 511 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,320 I mean. Of course, the greatest. 512 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,400 Musician on his instrument of his time, but I mean he was you 513 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,440 know my neighbor my one of my best friends and he watched all 514 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,840 of my kids grow up and me with his kids and you know I mean 515 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,600 it's like that and and he's. Jack, the guy who's. 516 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,760 On, you know, like probably half of my favorite records, you 517 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,520 know, I mean, you know, I get to play a lot with Ron Carter now, 518 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,280 you know, and same kind of thing. 519 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,120 It's like, man, I mean, he's. The greatest but. 520 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,160 Man, it's Ron. He's. 521 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,320 Such a beautiful. Cat, you know, and Ornette was 522 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,720 one of the greatest human beings ever, you know, and somehow it 523 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:17,600 does all go together, you know, I mean, it's so it's interesting 524 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,560 for me kind of also at this stage, you know, where I mean, 525 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,040 somehow I'm 70 something now, man, I mean, I don't even know 526 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,320 how that happened, but. But it's what it. 527 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,440 Is, and I mean, I look around now and I mean I look on my own 528 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,240 records and it's like probably more than half the people that 529 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:38,600 are on them are no longer on the planet, you know? 530 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000 So that's that's a. Kind of thing too and that. 531 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,320 But then I think about Roy Haynes, who you know, he was in 532 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,000 that. Category for probably the last 533 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,560 30 years of his life. You know where his. 534 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,600 His friends, his best buddies that were the Pete. 535 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,840 His people. They weren't on the planet for, 536 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,680 you know. The last few decades of. 537 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,760 The time he was around and he, he hired, you know, Roy and 538 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:26,840 Kenny and everybody. Royce like. 539 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,720 You know, perfectly righteous and elegant response was to, you 540 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,000 know, turn towards the younger generation and become. 541 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,440 That he didn't want to think like that. 542 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,840 And you know what that was? That was sincere, too. 543 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,680 He was like, well, no, I'm just trying to learn too. 544 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,080 I'm just trying. To figure it out. 545 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,880 You know, it was always interesting to me, him and Paul 546 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,120 Motion, man, they would, you know, they. 547 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,680 Would set set up the. Drums. 548 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,880 And. Sit there for an hour before, 549 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,960 you know, the first set just working on the drums, you know, 550 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,080 working on tuning and working on this and that. 551 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,920 I mean, you know, it was like, you know, it's I feel the same 552 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,200 way. I feel kind of exactly the same 553 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,200 as I did when I was 13. It's like I'm just trying to 554 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,920 figure it out, trying to get better. 555 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,760 And you know, I'm think it's going to be that way right to 556 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,280 the end, you know, just because that's. 557 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,920 What I saw with those? Guys, you know, Yeah, Yeah. 558 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,160 And not all musicians are like that. 559 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,400 There are some others that are, you know, once they got anything 560 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,320 together at all. They were like, OK, that's. 561 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,320 It I'm good and then they just kind of do that. 562 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,880 But man the the you know, like Roy you know, or or man you know 563 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,080 many. Others it's like still just. 564 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,520 Trying to figure it out. Really. 565 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,000 Yeah. You mentioned age and, and, and 566 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,560 sort of generation and you have been for a long time now hanging 567 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,840 with with, you know, a lot of younger players from at this 568 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,880 point, multiple generations because, you know, Christian and 569 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,760 Brad are younger and Antonio's younger. 570 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,080 But then, you know, Joe Dyson is he's from a whole other scene. 571 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,880 And so do you think of yourself having that kind of, you know, 572 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,120 mentor capacity? Do you think about the influence 573 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:19,640 that you've had, or do you try not? 574 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,960 To go there. Well, you've probably heard. 575 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,400 That I'm not like a kind of bandleader. 576 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,000 That's where it's like, yeah. Let's you know, let's just play. 577 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,680 I mean, I'll spend hours talking with everybody about everything 578 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,040 and had been that. Way since I was. 19, you know, 579 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,960 including with Jocko and everybody else, like, you know, 580 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,440 that's great. But you know, and I mean, I've 581 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,680 always been like that, you know, that's still true. 582 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,920 And, and I think, you know, I always warn people too, I'm 583 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,560 like, you know, this is not going to be like what some other 584 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,120 gigs might be. There's going to be a lot of 585 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,520 talking. And a lot of that is also 586 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,320 because 95% of what I play is also something that I've 587 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,840 written. So, you know, from the 588 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,600 composer's standpoint, I've always got really strong. 589 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,840 Ideas like and they're very. Specific sometimes, you know, 590 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,360 like. OK, at this place you got to go 591 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,200 to the other. Symbol and maybe the next night 592 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,200 that didn't happen and there that guy's going to hear like, 593 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,560 no, I'm serious. It's like you got to go to the 594 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,720 other. Symbol on that section, you 595 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,160 know, I mean, so there's always been that and and there still is 596 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,800 and I don't know if that's mentoring or just being. 597 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,280 Whatever it is. I am as a bandleader, but that 598 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:39,880 certainly comes with the territory. 599 00:40:07,570 --> 00:40:10,770 In terms of like claiming influence, I'm. 600 00:40:10,770 --> 00:40:15,530 I would always be reluctant to to do that because I mean, man, 601 00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:20,280 you know, every single thing I play, I can say, well, yeah, 602 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,120 that came from like, you know, that record and this came from, 603 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,400 you know, I mean, it's like. All of us are this. 604 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,080 You know, coming from the. People that we loved. 605 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,040 As fans, basically, right? So just by virtue of hanging 606 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,440 around for a while and being on, you know, not just my records. 607 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,560 But a bunch of other people's records that were. 608 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,920 Kind of influential records, There's a certain amount of that 609 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,760 there. I would. 610 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,200 Say there was a kind of Sonic thing that I guess I know. 611 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:50,600 For a fact that. I was. 612 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,480 Kind of the first person. To do it because I was, you 613 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,040 know, nobody was doing the thing of having 2 amps or three amps 614 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,480 and having a little bit of delay and reverb and you know, all 615 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,080 that kind of stuff. I mean, you know, I can. 616 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,880 There was probably 3 or. Four years where nobody else was 617 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:38,440 doing that at the time. Now everybody does that. 618 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,520 And for better or for? Worse, sometimes I hear and I'm 619 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,720 go, my God, that sounds. Horrible. 620 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,200 What are you? Doing and then the guitar synth 621 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,640 stuff too and you know that, you know, again, it's sort of like. 622 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,960 For better or for worse. But I mean, you know, those are 623 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,880 things that. I guess I could say. 624 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,320 Well, you know, I I know that that there wasn't that. 625 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,040 Before but. But on the other hand, you know, 626 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,400 I had, I witnessed Gary Burton playing with four mallets that. 627 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,200 Particular way. You know, Jocko was, you know, 628 00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,400 kind of my closest friend for a few years there before anybody 629 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,960 knew anything about either one of us. 630 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,960 And that was. Part of what I thought you were 631 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,360 supposed to do. Is come up with some shit, you 632 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,480 know? Yeah. 633 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,080 Something that, you know, that was not like anything else. 634 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,360 And it was only in that period the, you know, dressing up and 635 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,800 playing for. Your parents period where 636 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,400 suddenly. It was like, oh, we don't have 637 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,240 to do that. And I'm like, no, you actually 638 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:40,720 still do. You're supposed to. 639 00:42:40,880 --> 00:43:11,870 Still do that, but the the good news for me is 640 00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:13,910 that I can find. Cats who can play those? 641 00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:16,230 Grooves now, which was very difficult for a long time. 642 00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:18,960 Mm Hmm. Yeah, yeah. 643 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,680 I mean, you know, I once was talking. 644 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,840 With Carla Blair about her. Influence as a composer. 645 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,760 And she kind of was like, I don't know. 646 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,480 I don't know if you know, I don't know what anyone got from 647 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,520 me and the the. Way that I responded to her was, 648 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,920 well, it's it's. Kind of like your fluoride in 649 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,680 the water supply you. Know. 650 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,080 And she liked that. I bet she did. 651 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,760 Yeah. But I mean so much of your voice 652 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,760 and concept. I mean at this point. 653 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,240 It has travelled so far. And kind of. 654 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,960 Diffused. Into the, you know, the oxygen 655 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,040 into the air we breathe so much that even people who wouldn't. 656 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,400 Actually. Cite you as an influence are in 657 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,960 fact, you know, emulating certain aspects of of your your 658 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,840 thing, you know, and that's a it's a testament to the 659 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,840 originality of the impulse, but also. 660 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,000 Just like what A? Sprawling body of work there is, 661 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,280 you know, it's like there's so many different access points 662 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,720 for, for people that at this point, you know, they, they 663 00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:30,240 could even be unintentionally emulating, if that makes any 664 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:32,120 sense. Yeah, maybe. 665 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,080 Yeah. It's hard to know. 666 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,640 It's hard to know. Well, I am very. 667 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,360 Excited, first of all, that. That you will be at the festival 668 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,160 and then I'll get to hear this, you know, this current version. 669 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,840 Of side eye I have only heard the first track. 670 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,360 On the new album in on it but I. It's. 671 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,560 It's got me very excited. For the rest of it. 672 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,200 A pretty cool record. I got to say. 673 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,360 I'm. I'm I'm. 674 00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,120 I'm. Really excited about this 675 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,880 record. I mean, it, it does a bunch of 676 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:06,400 things that, you know, I, I don't know, it's just not like 677 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,560 anything. It's, it's, I mean, you know, I 678 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,280 think people can probably tell it's me, but it's really, there 679 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,800 are, there are moments along the way. 680 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,640 It's just it's. Really in a different. 681 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,200 Category even. From, you know, my family, 682 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,640 they're like, wow, that's, that's some different. 683 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,680 Stuff, Dad. And you, you know, you're going 684 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:30,120 to be Rd. dogging it as usual. And so, you know, big ears and. 685 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,320 Knoxville is like. One day, and the day before 686 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,680 you're somewhere else, and the day after you're somewhere else. 687 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:37,680 Well, yeah, you. You. 688 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:39,440 You. Said it correctly, which is 689 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,400 we'll be. Passing through. 690 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,720 Yes, exactly. That'll be fine, but honestly 691 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:46,800 knowing. How big years has evolved? 692 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,280 And the kind of place it it is and it would be great some year 693 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,600 to come and and. Be there for. 694 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,800 You know, you know, kind of. Over a few days. 695 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,400 To do a bunch of different kinds of things like I know people do. 696 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,640 There. And you know, if we do a good 697 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,160 job, maybe I'll get a chance to. Get invited to do that. 698 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,240 One of those years. Good. 699 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,680 Because that would really be. Fun and interesting for me and I 700 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,600 I'm really happy. That the that it has. 701 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,920 Become what it has become and it you know, I don't know that 702 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,080 there's anything at least in, in the. 703 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,040 States like it. Yeah, I don't think there is. 704 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,600 And you know what? You just said about the. 705 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,040 You know, doing a bunch of different things. 706 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,680 To me that is the biggest no brainer in the history of no 707 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,040 brainers to have used post up and and present a number of 708 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,360 projects. It'd be fun. 709 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,600 Yeah, it would, it would be so great and I I hope it happens. 710 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,200 Pat Metheny makes his Big Year's debut Thursday, March 26th, 7:00 711 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,120 PM at the Historic Tennessee Theatre. 712 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,320 For remaining tickets and daily schedules, visit 713 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,400 bigyearsfestival.org. Big Year's Conversations about 714 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,680 Music is a production of Big Years Festival, I'm Your host 715 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,280 Sarah Gilletti. The show is produced by Matt 716 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,600 Marowitz. This episode was edited by Alex 717 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,960 Arif. Ashley Capps is the executive 718 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,720 and artistic director of Big Ears. 719 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,720 Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those ears wide 720 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:31,160 open.