1
00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:14,340
Welcome to Big Ears 
Conversations about Music, a 

2
00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:19,020
podcast from Big Ears Festival. 
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. 

3
00:00:21,940 --> 00:00:25,220
Today's episode features an 
illuminating conversation 

4
00:00:25,220 --> 00:00:28,540
between writer and critic 
Natalie Weiner and Grammy 

5
00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:32,759
winning vocalist Cecile Mclaurin
Salvant, who will appear at Big 

6
00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:39,200
Ears 2026, which runs from March
26th to 29th in 2026. 

7
00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:43,320
Together, they explore what it 
means to be called a jazz 

8
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,040
singer, questioning assumptions 
about scatting, improvisation 

9
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,440
and the subtle shifts that make 
each performance unique. 

10
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,640
Salvant, a 2020 MacArthur 
Fellow, reflects on her musical 

11
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,440
upbringing in both classical and
jazz traditions and shares her 

12
00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,319
excitement about venturing 
beyond jazz on her new Nonsuch 

13
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,920
release, Oh Snap. 
Along the way, she and Weiner 

14
00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,120
celebrate their mutual 
admiration for Nancy Wilson, 

15
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,400
revisit the legend of John 
Henry, and dive into Salvant's 

16
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,880
expanding work as a textile and 
visual artist. 

17
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,280
It's a revelatory portrait of an
artist who remains rooted in 

18
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:29,040
song while constantly expanding 
her palette as a multimedia post

19
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,400
genre artist. 
Here's their conversation. 

20
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,600
The Buzzard follows us gleefully
smelling. 

21
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,160
My name is Natalie Weiner. 
I am a writer based in Dallas. 

22
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,960
I've written for all kinds of 
different publications, New York

23
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:53,880
Times, Rolling Stone, Builder, 
etcetera, mostly about jazz, 

24
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,160
country music, but also a lot of
different things. 

25
00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,600
And I am so happy to be here on 
the Big Ears podcast today 

26
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,320
speaking with the wonderful, 
extraordinarily talented Cecile 

27
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,600
Mclaurin Salvant. 
If somehow you are not familiar 

28
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,880
with her work already, she 
really does embody the Big Ears 

29
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,720
mission of Stretching Beyond 
whatever genre is. 

30
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:26,600
And you know, she kind of came 
out into the jazz world, took it

31
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,680
by storm, but very quickly 
stretched beyond beyond that. 

32
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,920
But also while still being in 
it. 

33
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,200
I don't know, you know, using 
words to describe the kind of 

34
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,000
magic that she creates on stage 
feels pretty futile. 

35
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:47,000
But and in the recording studio,
obviously MacArthur fellow three

36
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,240
time Grammy winner, etcetera, 
etcetera, all the all the 

37
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,480
accolades were speaking shortly 
before the release of her 7th 

38
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,000
studio album O Snap. 
So yeah, Cecile, welcome to the 

39
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,120
podcast. 
Thank you so much. 

40
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,200
Thanks for having me. 
Of course, it's truly just a 

41
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,680
pleasure to be speaking with 
you. 

42
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,360
I mean, just to start with like 
big years, since it's the Big 

43
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,240
Years podcast. 
What's been your experience of 

44
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,080
the festival to this point? 
You know, obviously it's a kind 

45
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,200
of particular mission, you know,
that the festival has. 

46
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,600
What what has it been like for 
you and your experiences so far?

47
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,640
And and what does it mean to you
to play it? 

48
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:37,360
I think I performed at Big Years
once, I believe, and we got to 

49
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,960
stay there a couple days, I 
think, although it's all kind of

50
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,040
a blur to me. 
But I remember just being able 

51
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:50,560
to see a few bands play and 
like, walking around the city 

52
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,280
and just like, going into like, 
maybe a church or something and 

53
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,320
hearing like, some really 
strange and beautiful string 

54
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,400
quartet play music that I had 
never heard of. 

55
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,000
And we had friends playing the 
festival as well. 

56
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,720
And I just remember it being a 
really fun time. 

57
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:19,240
And yeah, just musicians and 
audiences that are both 

58
00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:24,280
interested in people who are 
thinking and pushing and 

59
00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:28,760
exploring, and that's always a 
really fun, fun environment to 

60
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,440
be in. 
Yeah, definitely. 

61
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,000
No, I this past year was the 
first year I had actually gotten

62
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,560
to go just because it sort of, 
you know, Knoxville is not not 

63
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,960
necessarily the easiest place to
get to depending on where you're

64
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,040
coming from. 
But I was just so wowed by how 

65
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,040
many people were at these shows,
you know what I mean? 

66
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,400
Like, I, I lived in New York for
a long time. 

67
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,440
I, I live in Texas now and it's 
just like to see like sell out 

68
00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,920
level crowds for like stuff 
that's really pretty out, you 

69
00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,360
know, but that's just the kind 
of people who get drawn drawn to

70
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,880
going to it, I guess. 
Yeah, I love it. 

71
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,240
I love it. 
I mean, not to like get 

72
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,640
philosophical instantly, but on 
the question of kind of like 

73
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:21,280
genre and like, obviously you're
sort of constantly sort of 

74
00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,240
pushing it different, different 
sounds, different ways of 

75
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,120
expressing yourself, all that, 
all that good stuff. 

76
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,560
And I, I love that you sometimes
have cited Nancy Wilson as, as 

77
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,120
an influence. 
She's one of my personal faves. 

78
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,840
And I know she like famously 
said, like, don't call me a jazz

79
00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,800
singer, you know what I mean? 
And sort of just like she's 

80
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,240
like, I interpret songs like 
that's what I do. 

81
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,360
And I know that's more than 
that. 

82
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,680
You're a songwriter as well. 
But I don't know. 

83
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,320
I mean, what? 
I guess like, how do you feel 

84
00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,280
yourself fitting into that 
lineage of people who get called

85
00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:03,960
jazz singers, I guess for for 
lack of a better, better word. 

86
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,560
Well, I feel like it's 
interesting. 

87
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,640
The whole thing is interesting, 
right? 

88
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,600
The genre itself and like what 
that means. 

89
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,320
But also, I particularly get 
excited by the ways in which 

90
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:24,400
people like the ways musicians 
deal with it and articulate who 

91
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,880
they are. 
Sometimes by rejecting it, 

92
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,000
sometimes by being warriors for 
it and saying, like, I am the 

93
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,040
real jazz historian. 
I am the real preserver of jazz 

94
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,360
or it's not jazz. 
Jazz is a four letter word. 

95
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,120
Don't call it that. 
Like I I find that to be so so 

96
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,760
interesting that a genre would 
have this much weight on the 

97
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:55,920
name of it. 
Didn't know what time it was, 

98
00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,720
then I met you. 
I wonder sometimes, I mean, I 

99
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,120
it's harder for me to say like, 
I don't know what other artists 

100
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,640
in, you know, in other genres, 
let's say, like what the other 

101
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,560
scenes are like. 
Like I don't know what it's like

102
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,560
in hip hop or rap or something. 
If people are like, no, I'm not 

103
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,640
a rapper. 
I'm I don't know, I don't know. 

104
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,440
But I feel like in jazz, it's 
like the storied history of 

105
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,600
like, it's not jazz. 
It is jazz. 

106
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,440
That's not jazz. 
This is jazz. 

107
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,080
I don't sing jazz. 
And I think for singers too, 

108
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,040
it's it's been quite strange 
And, and especially for Nancy 

109
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,600
Wilson. 
I mean, she was, she was an 

110
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,840
interpreter of songs. 
I think of her, I suppose in the

111
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:46,680
jazz tradition, but she might 
have been, I, I can't speak for 

112
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,520
her, but she might have been 
thinking about singers like a 

113
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:56,800
Betty Carter or Ella or people 
who were who had different 

114
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,040
roles, different interactions 
with their singing with the band

115
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,880
and thinking, I don't do that. 
I sing songs. 

116
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:10,440
I don't necessarily see that 
line between a Nancy Wilson and 

117
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,240
a Betty Carter. 
I just for sure, because I think

118
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,200
it's like it's all individual 
singers sort of putting their 

119
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,760
putting their giving their 
contribution to this big thing 

120
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:28,040
that is really, really hard to 
define and hard to hard to find 

121
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,320
the boundaries around it. 
Like does there is improvisation

122
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,240
a prerequisite? 
Is it, and, and what does that 

123
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,000
even mean? 
What kind of improvisation are 

124
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,679
we talking about for singers? 
Like does it mean that you have 

125
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,320
to scat If you don't scat? 
Are you improvising? 

126
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,280
If you don't improvise, Are you 
a jazz musician? 

127
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,400
I mean, I talk about this a lot 
with Sullivan Fortner, who is 

128
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,160
incredible pianist that I that 
is in my band and that I 

129
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,000
collaborate with all the time. 
And and we talked about the fact

130
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,560
that a lot of these so-called 
jazz musicians, instrumentalists

131
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,880
had prepared ideas for their 
solos. 

132
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,640
Like it's not just coming out of
thin air and always different. 

133
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,480
Like some of these people had 
structures and forms within the 

134
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,120
solos and sometimes even a 
specific solo that they would 

135
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,880
play because the audience is 
even would be like we like we 

136
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,760
want. 
We want to hear a specific solo.

137
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,000
Right. 
So I think, I think the whole 

138
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,080
thing is really, really 
confusing and fascinating and 

139
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,840
it's almost, to me it's more 
exciting to look at the ways 

140
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,680
people deal with it than to 
actually have a. 

141
00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:46,120
Specific like an answer. 
Definitive. 

142
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,400
Like this is what jazz is. 
This is what a jazz singer does.

143
00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:55,280
This is why jazz is valid. 
And I'll, I'll speak for myself,

144
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,000
like the way that I've kind of 
interacted with the genre, with 

145
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,400
the word, with the idea is that 
I think starting out, I was in a

146
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,160
music school. 
I think that's really when it 

147
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,920
started to become this thing. 
I, I, I didn't know what a jazz 

148
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,320
standard was when I was 18, like
the word jazz standard and even 

149
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,280
the concept of it sort of 
escaped me. 

150
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,760
I was like, what is a jazz 
standard? 

151
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,920
I don't get it. 
Like what does that mean? 

152
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,160
Like how do we define a jazz 
standard? 

153
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,880
And even even now I, it's sort 
of, I don't know, I don't really

154
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,640
know like where they begin and 
end. 

155
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,200
So I, I think starting off it 
was really going to school and 

156
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,480
having to choose like, OK, you 
want to be a classical singer or

157
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,760
do you want to be a jazz singer?
And then you're like, oh, I, I 

158
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,000
guess, I guess it's something 
that you choose and it's 

159
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,360
something that you devote 
certain times of the day for 

160
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,040
certain. 
Things. 

161
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,360
Even though obviously things are
cross pollinating and cross 

162
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,920
contaminating each other and 
that's beautiful. 

163
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,520
I really early on was like, OK, 
when I sing jazz, I need to sing

164
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,320
jazz authentically and when I 
sing classical, I need to sing 

165
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,360
classical authentically. 
Never the twin shall meet. 

166
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,640
And I don't want to be like one 
of those people where you can 

167
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,160
tell like I don't want to have 
an accent, you know what I'm 

168
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,920
doing in the other language. 
And so I became kind of really, 

169
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,360
really like the genres were 
really present in my life and 

170
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,600
very important and like laws. 
And it was all about 

171
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,840
authenticity to those specific 
genres. 

172
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,280
And then when I started studying
early music and baroque music, 

173
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,560
it was like, OK, now this is 
even a whole other set of laws 

174
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,800
and rules and, and, and, and 
authenticity there and make it 

175
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,680
sound like it's real. 
And I was, of course, told to 

176
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:48,200
choose between the three. 
Like, you have to choose one 

177
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,280
because you're never going to be
able to be good at one at 3 

178
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,040
things. 
You can be good at one thing. 

179
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,840
And I sort of fought against 
that, but eventually was like, 

180
00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,680
OK, I guess I do have to choose 
one. 

181
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,200
And I guess jazz is going well. 
So I choose jazz. 

182
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,960
And then as time goes by, you 
know, and this is now maybe 20 

183
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:16,880
years later, I'm starting to 
like reconnect with my childhood

184
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,240
self, like the way that I 
interacted with music as a 

185
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,680
child, the way we interacted 
with music with my family, which

186
00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:33,760
was no genre, no era, no like no
rules, just just music and, and 

187
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,880
a lot of music, a lot of 
different music from all over 

188
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:44,000
the world. 
I have fallen deep in love with 

189
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,960
you. 
And so little by little, I've 

190
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,560
been singing, you know, songs 
from Purcell and Dowland and 

191
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,000
what we would call the early 
music repertoire, throwing that 

192
00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:00,560
into what I do with musicians 
that are called jazz musicians 

193
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:04,960
and singing Selena songs and, 
you know, just really kind of 

194
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:12,000
relaxing with everything and not
being so tied up in these laws. 

195
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:20,040
Like, they feel like laws that 
are actually, you know, all up 

196
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,320
kind of up for debate. 
Definitely. 

197
00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:27,680
And while I say that, I still 
also feel like there is a part 

198
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:33,600
of me that loves the rules and 
loves like, this is what this 

199
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,680
is. 
If it doesn't have these 

200
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,080
elements, it's not that like 
stride piano is stride piano. 

201
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,040
If it doesn't have these 
elements, it's not that like, 

202
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,760
you know, So I wrote in my 
journal today, I'm sorry. 

203
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,840
I'm like going on and on. 
I need to stop talking but like.

204
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,280
No. 
I need to find, I am still 

205
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,880
trying to find a balance between
the chaos and the order. 

206
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,800
As a musician, as an artist, you
know, the, the whole like Apollo

207
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:05,240
and Dionysus, like I always go 
to 1 and become like a dictator 

208
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,400
in that one. 
I'm like, I, I must be chaotic 

209
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,200
completely. 
Like there can be no rules. 

210
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,680
Anything goes and then like I 
burn out on that and then I go, 

211
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,080
no, we must have order like. 
So I'm just trying to find a 

212
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,640
little bit more balance with 
that. 

213
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,520
I mean, that's a extremely tall 
order, but it's like so. 

214
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,960
Tall. 
But knowing the rules in order 

215
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,480
to break them thing, right, 
That's a, that's a cliche, I 

216
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,280
think for a reason, you know. 
No, totally, totally. 

217
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,480
With what you're saying, sort of
like returning to childhood, 

218
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:42,640
like being looser, it feels like
this new album is definitely a 

219
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:48,160
product of that loosening. 
Yeah, I mean, it is, I think, I 

220
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,200
think literally anything that I 
do is just going to be sort of 

221
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,200
go hand in hand with that. 
I think what's special about 

222
00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:01,400
this next album is that it 
really comes from the home and 

223
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,720
from me being alone, not being 
front facing. 

224
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,480
It's very similar to the way I 
make like drawings and artwork. 

225
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,520
Like for me, no one is watching 
me. 

226
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,560
It's not for anyone else. 
And I just started playing in 

227
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,400
garage band, honestly on my iPad
on tour. 

228
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,680
And then I got back home and I'd
like plug in a garage band to a 

229
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,240
keyboard that I had. 
And then I was just having fun. 

230
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,880
I would like choose a loop, 
random loop and just have fun. 

231
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,920
And I realized that I was 
getting, I was just really drawn

232
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,680
to like dance music. 
Like I was just naturally making

233
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,360
dance music, dance traps and 
making myself dance in my room 

234
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,760
without even like some of the 
sometimes not, no melody, like 

235
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,920
just playing chords over this 
loop. 

236
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,720
And then little by little, it's 
just built into more and more 

237
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,240
and adding lyrics and it became 
its own thing. 

238
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,760
So naturally so not calculated, 
which, you know, it's so hard to

239
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,760
do that for, you know, like I 
was telling you, you know, the 

240
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,320
order, my gosh, the orderliness 
be like, OK, then what? 

241
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,040
What must the next album be? 
The concept must be this like 

242
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,160
this was just it just came out 
of play. 

243
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,800
Really. 
It was like similar to like 

244
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,320
playing Tetris on my computer or
something or like, you know, I, 

245
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,480
I actually really think of it 
like when I was a kid and I had 

246
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,000
a Casio keyboard in my room and 
I would turn the lights off and 

247
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,120
put one of the beats from the 
keyboard and just like play 

248
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,360
random chords and just have a 
great time and like not record 

249
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,160
it just for myself. 
And so I was making these tracks

250
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,480
and like saving them to files in
my computer and I was never 

251
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,600
going to share them with anyone.
And little by little, I'd tweak 

252
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,600
them a little bit more and tweak
them a little bit more. 

253
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,520
And, and, you know, I, I really 
do compare it to like my 

254
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,760
embroideries because it was 
like, let me go back and like 

255
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,440
add a little character here and 
let me fix this. 

256
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,400
And let me just. 
And so, you know, over the 

257
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,920
course of four or five years, 
things were starting to get a 

258
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,800
little bit more meat on them. 
And they're like, some of these 

259
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,640
are actually songs. 
And and I thought maybe I should

260
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,520
release them under a different 
name or maybe I should release. 

261
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,920
Them. 
Wait, did you have any like 

262
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,200
alter ego names picked out? 
I did, but I refused to share 

263
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,720
them. 
Here we don't get a. 

264
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:40,160
Software you can use it. 
But yeah, so I, I was like, you 

265
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,920
know, what if I wear a wig and 
like, have a different name and 

266
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,360
like, wear weird different 
glasses and like, no one will 

267
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:47,960
know. 
And I thought I'd be freed. 

268
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:53,440
Like, like it would somehow free
me from having to be me all the 

269
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,640
time and, and present my music. 
You know, it was like, I don't 

270
00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,120
know. 
I think an alter ego, the idea 

271
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:03,560
of an alter ego is so enticing 
to everyone, like whether you're

272
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,880
a musician or not, it's like if 
I could just finally rid myself 

273
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,160
of me for just like an hour, 
there'd be so many completely 

274
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,440
different. 
And so, so it started off like 

275
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,120
that and then I don't know what 
happened. 

276
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:24,000
Like I wanted to put them out as
demos for free or like put them 

277
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,360
out on band camp or. 
And then I was like, oh, maybe I

278
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,440
should just like, I don't know 
what the moment was, but there 

279
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,400
was a moment last year where I 
thought I could, I could just be

280
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,880
a little bit more ambitious with
this and like put it out like 

281
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,480
add like two or three things in 
the studio, like not do much, 

282
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,000
but add two or three like live 
instruments and just put it on 

283
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,200
as a record and it doesn't 
matter. 

284
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,920
Like, and, and having to remind 
myself, it doesn't matter. 

285
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,760
It doesn't have to be good, it 
doesn't matter, it doesn't 

286
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,920
matter. 
Like it doesn't matter, you 

287
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,480
know, Sure. 
And as that sort of happened, we

288
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,080
went into the studio a couple 
times. 

289
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,560
We started really, I started 
really working on the tracks and

290
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,200
I just have never had so much 
fun making music before. 

291
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,320
I, I'm, I'm playing keys, like I
never play keys. 

292
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,360
Like I'm always around amazing 
pianist. 

293
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,040
I'm scared to play keys. 
I'm playing keys. 

294
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,000
I'm like playing bass, synth 
bass. 

295
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,320
Like I had so, so much fun 
making this. 

296
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,120
It is really a reflection of 
like, I think what the music in 

297
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:31,920
my head sounds like or what some
of the music in my head sounds 

298
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,600
like. 
You know, reflection of so many 

299
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,840
of my influences growing up like
**NSYNC and Backstreet Boys and 

300
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,680
like those kinds of things that 
I never really you know, share 

301
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:50,720
like disco and and funk and like
also still having like straight 

302
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,000
ahead like acoustic so-called 
jazz on there to. 

303
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,640
Like I I didn't want it to be 
like Cecile does a dance album 

304
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,680
either. 
I just wanted to be kind of just

305
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,680
real and authentic and like have
everything that I was playing 

306
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,840
with at the time and have it 
just be this really humble. 

307
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:13,600
Like this is these are some 
files that I on my computer, you

308
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,240
know? 
OK, I think you're underselling 

309
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,600
it just a tad, but. 
No, yeah. 

310
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,800
I mean, at this point, I think 
it's, and to be honest, I'm the 

311
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,640
most proud of this because it's 
like, actually the most real 

312
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,440
thing. 
Like it's real. 

313
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,200
Yeah. 
And you know, I have a track 

314
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,520
that ended up on like dance 
playlists and like indie 

315
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:42,200
playlists, which is which felt 
so crazy to me. 

316
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,000
Like it felt great because it 
felt like that would I could 

317
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,480
net. 
I would have never thought that 

318
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,600
I would ever. 
Wait like the the O snap like 

319
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,040
the? 
O Snap is yeah, the first single

320
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,600
is like on some dance playlists 
and on some indie playlists. 

321
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,880
And I was like, I never would 
have thought that I would ever 

322
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,440
get out of this like jazz label,
like, you know, and I was fine 

323
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,200
with it. 
Like, I don't care, I'll do 

324
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,280
whatever I want and I don't like
you call it what you want, but 

325
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,880
for it to be called that out 
externally was exciting. 

326
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,440
It felt, it felt a little bit 
like, Oh my God, the alter ego 

327
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,160
thing is happening. 
Like I am sort of in a way 

328
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,680
somewhere else where people 
don't know me and it's great. 

329
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:43,400
Yeah, no, that's awesome. 
Looking at some of the materials

330
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,920
for the album, like the press 
materials and, and you're 

331
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,960
talking about sort of the 
strictures of the like the 

332
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,040
feeling of orderliness or like, 
you know, however, like you're 

333
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,320
saying, you've been doing like 
extremely outside the box stuff,

334
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,800
you know, now for a while. 
It's not like this is your first

335
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,040
foray into like challenging jazz
norms or whatever you want to 

336
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,800
whatever we want to say. 
But at the same time, I, I was 

337
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,960
struck by the way you talked 
about how there's this 

338
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,800
expectation of like a clean 
sound in the in the studio when 

339
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,720
it comes to like, you know, 
maybe albums you've made in the 

340
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,880
past and just sort of like a 
particular way of producing 

341
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,960
them. 
Because that is like one of my 

342
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,400
chief gripes with jazz quotes. 
I'm doing air quotes right now, 

343
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,840
you know, like records. 
It is just like that gloss, you 

344
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,880
know, the Sheen as you describe 
it, and just sort of the feeling

345
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,680
that like the only thing that's 
important are the notes. 

346
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,760
So we need to hear the notes 
like extremely clearly. 

347
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:50,920
And it's like, that doesn't 
actually recreate like, the live

348
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,760
experience of hearing improvised
music, you know? 

349
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,360
Yeah, like I think, yeah, I 
think the Sheen sounds like 

350
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,520
we're talking about like Charlie
Sheen or something. 

351
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,480
You know, Speaking of Charlie 
Sheen, like I do, this will make

352
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,760
sense. 
I feel like especially today, 

353
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,400
which is the day, you know, I 
know I'm old. 

354
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,840
I'm I'm old to say like at 
before I say this. 

355
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,680
Sentence You're not an old 
person. 

356
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,640
She's not old. 
But this is OK. 

357
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,520
I might not be old, but this is 
an old person sentence, OK? 

358
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,120
We have AI. 
We have Ozempic. 

359
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,440
Yeah, we have all kinds of, 
like, clean. 

360
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,440
We have all kinds of gorgeous, 
incredible plastic surgery in, 

361
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,480
you know, figuratively and 
literally. 

362
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,080
We have so many ways to just 
clean everything up in and in in

363
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,960
the studio. 
We have so much beautiful 

364
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:53,120
technology to make everything 
sound perfect, and we celebrate 

365
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:57,120
people who sound perfect who are
technically incredible. 

366
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:04,480
I just feel like in that in this
world, in that world, which 

367
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,720
still are also, by the way, 
still is a world full of mess, 

368
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,560
but just not in those places. 
Like it's full of mess in life. 

369
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,520
So like in in place, like people
can't get food mess, right. 

370
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:22,560
But like I'm just kind of like 
if I could just if there could 

371
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,120
be a little mess, I'm I'm happy 
if it can be a little pitchy, if

372
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,160
there can be a mistake. 
Like I used to think this before

373
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,520
and I didn't really know why I 
used to think this when I 

374
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,800
started, I was like, I want 
things to be a little bit rough 

375
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,360
and gritty and like messy. 
And I want it to feel natural. 

376
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,320
And for me now, it's like I 
think more than ever, it's not 

377
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,440
even. 
I want it to feel natural 

378
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,040
because I like the theatricality
of it. 

379
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,280
Like I like the heightened 
thing. 

380
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,920
And I just especially in the 
music industry now, like 

381
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,960
everybody's afraid of taking 
risks. 

382
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:05,080
And it's just, I think it's 
important to have a little mess.

383
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:14,160
I just really more and more and 
that was the final part of my 

384
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:19,640
old my old old old ass statement
being old. 

385
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,760
I don't think it sounded old. 
If that's old, I guess I'm old 

386
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,680
too, which is probably true, but
but. 

387
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,720
By the way, I've always been 
old, by the way, but I was born 

388
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:38,160
old. 
No, an old soul, Sure, for sure.

389
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,120
But yeah, no, I think it's just 
it. 

390
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,280
It is. 
I don't know. 

391
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,160
I think there are so many lines 
around acceptability and jazz, 

392
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,920
which is so funny for a thing 
that is like predicated on 

393
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,160
liberation and freedom, you 
know, as like a big part of what

394
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,240
it is and the production style 
as we're talking about anyway, 

395
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,560
it just, it continually irks me.
Yeah, yeah. 

396
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,520
And it's funny because it's like
it's an age-old thing, right? 

397
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,000
Like it's something from the 
from the first early days of 

398
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,320
American Music is like this 
really weird tug of war thing 

399
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,720
that's going on between like, 
you know, innovation. 

400
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,440
Any kind of innovation, any kind
of risk taking is going to be 

401
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,840
messy. 
Sure. 

402
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,920
And that might end up being 
successful by accident. 

403
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:35,920
And then it's like trying to 
recreate that through the 

404
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,360
generations, but make it cleaner
and make it better. 

405
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,760
And none of the none of the mess
like right. 

406
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,600
And then, you know, you get into
a new space and you try to mess 

407
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,360
that like and do something new 
in there. 

408
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,800
Like it's just, I think it's 
just part of the cycles of, of 

409
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,160
definitely, I'll just say 
American Music and, and 

410
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,160
especially in the music 
industry, like we've just 

411
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,080
musicians have always had to 
deal with that. 

412
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,880
And it is interesting to see how
creatively they deal with like 

413
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,800
having to deal with the 
expectations and the pressures 

414
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,120
and needing to be perfect, but 
also wanting to be real 

415
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,240
sometimes it's kind of nice to 
have that, that friction there. 

416
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,200
Like, I think it creates, it 
creates really great music too, 

417
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,000
you know? 
For sure. 

418
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,320
No, I mean, we can't. 
No, I see. 

419
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:27,560
I totally get what you're 
saying. 

420
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,000
I think it's like there wouldn't
be the. 

421
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,360
It wouldn't be exciting, you 
know? 

422
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,680
Yeah. 
We need the, we need the world, 

423
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,880
we need the whole world. 
We need all of it. 

424
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:53,390
I know another emphasis point of
emphasis in this album was like 

425
00:27:53,710 --> 00:27:56,670
the more private way that you 
made it, like you said, like 

426
00:27:56,670 --> 00:28:00,750
likening it to to the your 
visual art, your textile work, 

427
00:28:00,750 --> 00:28:06,840
your drawing, like, and on 
stage, I feel like you are so 

428
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,320
good at the theatrical elements.
Like you're saying like that is 

429
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,880
such a potent part of your 
performance is like the the way 

430
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,360
that you draw people in. 
And I feel like draw from like 

431
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:23,000
the cabaret tradition, you know,
in a way that's like somewhat, 

432
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,520
you know, we talk about jazz. 
Jazz has all these like sort of 

433
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,160
positive things associated with 
it, like, oh, like credibility. 

434
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,320
You know, cabaret is more like 
middlebrow. 

435
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,480
You know, people like maybe 
don't have the same kind of 

436
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,880
respect for it. 
And I don't know. 

437
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:44,240
I mean, how, how did you sort of
come to that like to 

438
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,560
appreciating that part of it, I 
guess or or having that be part 

439
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,880
of your practice? 
I love that you said that. 

440
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:56,000
I think someone once said that I
was a postmodern cabaret, which 

441
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,440
was like, I kind of like it 
'cause I was like, I love 

442
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,960
cabaret. 
I mean, I, I love Broadway, I 

443
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,800
love cabaret. 
I love those singers. 

444
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,760
Julie Wilson was an incredible 
cabaret singer and Broadway 

445
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,240
singer. 
She's like my queen. 

446
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,800
I I live and die for Elaine 
Stritch. 

447
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,680
She is my N. 
She is like my North Star. 

448
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,560
She's she's my alpha and Omega. 
Like I. 

449
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:27,240
So there's something about that 
world that speaks to me so, so, 

450
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,240
so deeply as somebody who likes 
storytelling and acting and like

451
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:38,080
theater and drama. 
And I also am very drawn to 

452
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,360
things that have a reputation, 
like a sort of bad reputation. 

453
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Yeah. 
Camp, camp, camp. 

454
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,120
It's camp. 
I love the banjo. 

455
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,920
For a long time, the banjo was 
sort of aligned. 

456
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,200
It still kind of is. 
I think maybe I love like, 

457
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,480
Renaissance music and lutes and 
I love accordions. 

458
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,680
Like, you know, if someone tells
me old cabaret is like corny and

459
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,440
like, nobody wants to like, you 
need to be a, you need to be a 

460
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,480
real jazz singer, you shouldn't 
be like a cabaret. 

461
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,440
I'm like, oh, that's then 
exactly what I want to do is 

462
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,840
what you're saying is bad. 
So, yeah, I mean, I, I adore 

463
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,800
that stuff. 
I mean, I I wouldn't say like, 

464
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,480
like Barbra Streisand isn't a 
cabaret singer because she's so 

465
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,320
famous, but she probably would 
have been a cabaret singer, 

466
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,920
don't you think? 
Yeah. 

467
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,520
Like, because she's still. 
I mean, obviously she's not, but

468
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,160
where are we putting her? 
If if she was not a huge star, 

469
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,520
that's where we would put her. 
Yeah. 

470
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,200
She'd be like, at a club in New 
York singing gorgeous, gorgeous 

471
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,200
show tunes, and it would be 
insane. 

472
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,720
Am I crazy? 
Is that bad? 

473
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Would she hate me for saying 
that? 

474
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:51,440
I. 
Don't think so. 

475
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,480
No, I mean, I think like, I 
don't know, I feel like the 

476
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,480
lines, like obviously all those,
all the lines are so blurry. 

477
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,000
And I think like, you know, like
you think of like a Blossom 

478
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,800
Dearie, you know, or like a, you
know, even a Nancy Wilson. 

479
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,120
You know, these are people who 
like, you know, were so invested

480
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,520
in, in telling stories and sort 
of creating these intimate 

481
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,400
emotional environments. 
Like I, I loved in another 

482
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,240
interview where you said, like, 
I want to like be telling 

483
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,880
secrets on stage or like 
gossiping, you know, and I feel 

484
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,080
like that's a very cabaret tone,
you know, like just between you 

485
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,280
and I, you know, we're like, 
we're going here together, you 

486
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,440
know, like I'm taking you on 
this journey. 

487
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,400
But just like creating that 
intimacy, I feel like is is 

488
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,840
really part of that. 
Yeah, I think, you know, and I 

489
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,480
think probably also the thing 
with like, what was that whole 

490
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,840
scene is that it's like a very 
New York, very queer, like drag 

491
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:57,920
queen adjacent gay scene and and
Broadway scene, Broadway ish 

492
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,440
scene. 
And I am like I feel so at home 

493
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,080
and at ease in those spaces and 
so excited in those spaces. 

494
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,920
I also feel like there's such an
element of like humor and like 

495
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,920
Cabaret, like Hasso's cabaret is
like laughing. 

496
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,120
Like it's like it's it's comedy.
It's a comedy show too. 

497
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,920
And as you were saying, it's 
extremely camp and like I just I

498
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,040
love that. 
I do love that stuff. 

499
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,880
So like I, I do think that 
sometimes jazz scene doesn't 

500
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,160
really necessarily scratch that 
itch completely, you know, Well,

501
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,000
I think there is something a 
little self self serious about 

502
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:37,520
it. 
Right. 

503
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,040
Exactly. 
Yeah, No, I think like the way 

504
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,240
you do, like never will I marry,
you know, I mean, there's like 

505
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,800
in that one and there's another 
one on that album that is 

506
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,480
escaping me right now. 
But I just like, it's all like 

507
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,960
everyone's cracking up, you 
know? 

508
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,240
Like you can hear it because 
it's a, it's a live album. 

509
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,040
Like you're making people laugh.
You know, there's punch lines. 

510
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,360
You're drawing out the punch 
lines that already exist in 

511
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,280
these by standards, you know, in
a way saying that. 

512
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,920
Yeah. 
Thank you for saying that. 

513
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,800
I mean, just thank you for 
making the music. 

514
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,800
Never, never will I marry. 
Born to wonder till I'm dead. 

515
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,600
No burdens, too bad, no 
conscience, no cares. 

516
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,520
No memories too more, no 
turning. 

517
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,040
In that vein of sort of 
approaching standards 

518
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,880
differently, I have to just 
selfishly use this opportunity 

519
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,120
to talk to you about John Henry,
which is just one of my, I feel 

520
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,040
like your performance of that 
song, I got to see you do it at 

521
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Newport, which was really just 
wonderful. 

522
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,120
No, no I this would have been 
now many years ago pre pandemic.

523
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,320
I was. 
Showing my showing my age but. 

524
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,360
We literally just did it. 
Oh, really? 

525
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,400
Yeah, we just did it at Newport 
like last week or whatever 10 

526
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,720
days ago, but totally 
differently. 

527
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,680
We do it totally differently 
than the way I did it then. 

528
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,760
Yeah, I'm curious. 
Wait, say what you were going to

529
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:04,240
say? 
I'm sorry. 

530
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,920
Now I want to hear the new take,
but. 

531
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,920
But no, I just when obviously 
that song has been recorded by 

532
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,120
like literally 500 million 
people, you know, in very, very,

533
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,760
very different ways. 
Yeah. 

534
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,120
And you do many standards that 
have been frequently recorded 

535
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,080
just as often as you do songs 
that are, you know, deep in the 

536
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,360
archives and all that stuff. 
I mean, when it comes to 

537
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,400
something like that, I guess 
specifically even with John 

538
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,040
Henry, like how how do you 
approach it? 

539
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,280
How do you find your own, your 
own place in the story of that 

540
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,679
song, I guess. 
Well, it's so interesting you're

541
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,400
bringing it up because I think, 
you know, I used to do it. 

542
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,719
There's a period I was doing it 
a lot whatever, let's say 8 

543
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,880
years ago or seven years ago. 
And then I stopped doing it for 

544
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,040
many years. 
And then recently, like last 

545
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,400
year, I started singing it 
again. 

546
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,200
I don't know why. 
I just felt like singing it 

547
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,720
again. 
And I think it totally 

548
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:07,200
differently, like the beat, the 
rhythm is different. 

549
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,600
Like there's, there's no like 
everyone in the on in the 

550
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,400
bandstand is just on the 
bandstand is just clapping and I

551
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,880
kind of take the melody where I 
want to take it. 

552
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,480
Like there's no actually, I 
won't say what I do because it 

553
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,600
changes every time, but it has 
totally, totally morphed and 

554
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,640
transformed over the years. 
So even my own version, like the

555
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,480
version that I might have 
recorded is unrecognizable to 

556
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,640
me. 
I would never sing it that way 

557
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,440
ever. 
The words would be the same, but

558
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,240
like the melody is different. 
The intention is different. 

559
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:49,360
What I think about is different.
You know, I used to think that 

560
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,120
song was really like man against
the machine. 

561
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,080
And like, you know, it's he's 
he's like he's fighting, you 

562
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,440
know, for everybody's rights to 
like make things by hand and 

563
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,160
like humans matter and, you 
know, the machines will not 

564
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,480
destroy us or whatever and like 
will. 

565
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,600
But now, and it's funny because 
I just read an article in The 

566
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,800
New Yorker about this, about 
perfectionism, and there's this 

567
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,800
thing, there's this, this 
phenomenon that was coined I 

568
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,760
think in the 70s. 
I'm not sure when actually, and 

569
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,160
I'm not sure by who, but it's 
called John Henryism. 

570
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,560
Yeah, no, I know. 
I. 

571
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:27,560
You know about? 
This. 

572
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,000
Yeah, Yeah. 
No, just because I had a moment 

573
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,160
with the song and I was like 
trying to learn all this stuff. 

574
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,200
Anyway, keep keep talking. 
So I had read about John 

575
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,880
Henryism years ago and I kind of
was like, oh, that's 

576
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,440
interesting, interesting 
coincidence. 

577
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,720
That's about this thing. 
And then I kind of forgot about 

578
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,400
it. 
And then recently I like, I was 

579
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,720
like, wait, wait, wait. 
Let me actually sit with this 

580
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,200
and think about the idea of John
Henryism, which is I think, 

581
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,640
correct me if I'm wrong, but 
this very particular, you know, 

582
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,480
phenomenon in African American 
community that is like, you must

583
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,640
work until you drop dead because
the system is that hard. 

584
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:16,560
And you have to prove that like,
and you have to be on 3000% at 

585
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,600
all times and you are. 
And then your hypertension is 

586
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,600
through the roof and then you 
have you get a heart attack and 

587
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,760
you die. 
Yeah. 

588
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,040
And it's like this. 
It's like this real phenomenon. 

589
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:35,360
And I thought, oh, like I think 
I had read it before and didn't.

590
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,240
It didn't, they didn't hit me 
then. 

591
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:44,800
I think now I as I am really 
coming to terms with my 

592
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,440
perfectionism, which is oddly 
not like it doesn't show up in 

593
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,720
the places that I like. 
I'm very controlling about how 

594
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:56,520
my perfectionism shows up. 
That's how bad it is because I 

595
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,320
know that perfectionism isn't 
good. 

596
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,840
So, you know, going back to what
we were talking about, like 

597
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:06,120
things being messy, like even 
that for me is like there is a 

598
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,960
sort of control there, right? 
Yeah. 

599
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,400
So, so anyway, so I was thinking
about like the way in which I 

600
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,920
and people around me, 
particularly musicians that I 

601
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:26,400
talk to, are constantly, 
constantly trying to work 

602
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,080
towards an ideal that is 
impossible, beating ourselves up

603
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,760
over not doing things the right 
way. 

604
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,400
It's not just me. 
I literally like these are 

605
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,800
conversation I have with so many
of my musician friends, so many 

606
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,360
of my friends that are non 
musicians, like people are so 

607
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,680
exhausted trying to be perfect 
all the time. 

608
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,280
And you know, it just hit me in 
a totally different way. 

609
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,480
I thought, Oh my God, this is 
really so tragic. 

610
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,760
Yeah, yeah. 
So tragic. 

611
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,040
And it's such a like, he's not, 
I mean, he's a hero, but he's 

612
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,040
not a hero. 
Like he's not a hero to look up 

613
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,480
to and want to be like. 
And I think for a long time I 

614
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,160
just looked up to him. 
I thought, oh, John Henry killed

615
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,800
himself to prove that he could 
beat the machine. 

616
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,840
What a great guy. 
And now I go, Oh no, like, why 

617
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,760
would he have? 
Why should he even have to do? 

618
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,240
Like why would he think he had 
to do that? 

619
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,520
Yeah. 
That is tragic. 

620
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:39,120
It's like, I don't know the 
story like it's truly so wild to

621
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,760
me still just like I, I think 
about it all the time and I feel

622
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,080
like it is sort of the most 
American story there is 

623
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,960
basically, you know, and it 
really sort of like the the ways

624
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,200
that people have embraced it and
performed it and in my mind 

625
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,080
sometimes misunderstood it or 
whatever it, it's all very 

626
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,280
fascinating. 
I don't know if you've read the 

627
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,680
Colson White book, Colson 
Whitehead Book, John Henry, John

628
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,600
Henry. 
But it's in this, it's in this 

629
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,480
article, they talk about it in 
this article. 

630
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,800
And I was like, I really read 
this book. 

631
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,320
I got about this book the 
article you're going. 

632
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,920
To love the article. 
OK, I'll go find it. 

633
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,000
But yeah, John Henry Days by 
Colson Whitehead. 

634
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,400
It's phenomenal. 
It's like now one of my new 

635
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,160
favorite books of all time. 
It's just literally he he has 

636
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,920
both a modern day allegory for 
John Henry that he kind of 

637
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,840
intersperses with different John
Henry related stories like 

638
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,080
through the novel, you know, so 
it's kind. 

639
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,640
Of all like. 
Thematically connected anyway my

640
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,640
new dream and maybe we can 
manifest this at big ears. 

641
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,360
You know, is you and Colson 
Whitehead in conversation about 

642
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,480
John Henry because I think that 
would be like that would that's 

643
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,200
that's my I'm I'm putting it 
into the world. 

644
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,680
I'm future. 
I love that that is such a good 

645
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,480
idea. 
But yeah, the book is, is truly 

646
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,320
wonderful. 
I, I, it sent me on a Colson 

647
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,240
Whitehead terror and I I've now 
read like all his stuff, but 

648
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,360
it's so good. 
And I just felt like he really 

649
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,160
does a lot of work with like the
musical history of the song too,

650
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,440
in the novel, you know, and with
research that like, I'm shocked 

651
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,000
that I mean, of course he's like
taking some liberties, like it's

652
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,600
fiction, but like more or less 
he's tracing the arc of the 

653
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,280
song, you know, as it sort of 
travelled through, you know, 

654
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,080
generations and stuff. 
And I'm like, I'm so impressed 

655
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,040
that he did all this research 
and whatever, I found it 

656
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,120
illuminating. 
I. 

657
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,320
Cannot wait to read this book. 
When I cannot wait to read the 

658
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,800
article. 
Hopefully, hopefully the people 

659
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,120
listening to this will 
appreciate this tangent. 

660
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,400
But John Henry, it's like it's 
real. 

661
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,680
I I keep getting annoyed because
I see people like this is just 

662
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,720
because I'm on the Internet too 
much, but like people doing like

663
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,040
John Henry memes, you know, and 
I'm like, what? 

664
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,320
You're pissing me off like so 
much because. 

665
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,800
I feel like you don't. 
Even understand what John just 

666
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,600
like about random stuff about 
like AI or whatever. 

667
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,320
Like trying to like use John 
Henry in their jokes, you know, 

668
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,520
and I'm just like, you don't 
like know so much more serious 

669
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,640
than than that, you know, like I
love a joke. 

670
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,760
I love I love a meme. 
I love, you know, obviously I'm 

671
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,920
extremely online. 
Like whatever, I get it. 

672
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,440
But like, no, it's too heavy. 
Like you can't. 

673
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,120
You can't do that. 
I need to see these John Henry 

674
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,200
memes. 
I'm going to lift them up. 

675
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,480
No, you don't want to. 
They're too stupid. 

676
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:42,120
John Henry was a little baby 
sitting on his papa's knees. 

677
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,560
Well, it picked up a hammer and 
a little. 

678
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,760
Piece of steel. 
So this hammer's gonna be the 

679
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,320
death of me. 
You are described now as like a 

680
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,360
multi hyphenate, you know, like 
singer-songwriter, artist, blah 

681
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,400
blah. 
But I feel like maybe it's more 

682
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,440
like you're a multimedia artist,
you know, like you just have 

683
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,920
different media that you work 
in, you know? 

684
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,560
That's nice. 
That would be right. 

685
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,200
That I love that. 
I, I aspire to that. 

686
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,600
I would love that. 
That's great. 

687
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Yes, but. 
Please. 

688
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:19,360
I mean like how, how did the 
kind of more tactile media enter

689
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,920
your enter your life, the the 
textiles and the drawing and all

690
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,040
that kind of stuff. 
It was always around because I 

691
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,160
come from a generation. 
I come from many generations of 

692
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:36,160
women doing textile art. 
My mom, my grandma, my sister, 

693
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,520
my great grandma, probably 
further back. 

694
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,960
They all have some kind of 
textile art practice. 

695
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,240
Because your mom has never 
called. 

696
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,720
An art practice, right? 
Right. 

697
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,840
They just say we're making, 
we're crocheting things, we're 

698
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,120
making a dress. 
You know, my mom made this dress

699
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,360
that I'm wearing. 
She makes a lot of the dresses 

700
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,600
that I wear. 
My sister makes incredible plush

701
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,120
dolls and sculptures and 
beautiful, like insane, like she

702
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,240
makes like biblical scenes, like
gruesome biblical scenes in 

703
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,360
plush dolls. 
They're gorgeous. 

704
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,920
My grandmother used to do a lot 
of applique, beautiful applique,

705
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,200
beautiful. 
My great grandmother used to do 

706
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,360
a lot of textiles. 
So I, I am just following in 

707
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,400
their lead. 
I've, I've, you know, my mom 

708
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,760
paints a lot. 
She does a lot. 

709
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,000
She makes a lot of stuff. 
She's like, she's like the 

710
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,000
ultimate Sunday painter. 
She would work during the week 

711
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,760
and then come home and like all 
weekend. 

712
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,280
Like, I don't know, she'd like 
make a chair or wow, like do an 

713
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,520
embroidery and alphabet or make 
lace. 

714
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,000
She knows how to do Bob and 
lace. 

715
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,560
She so I just saw this growing 
up, just like, you know, people 

716
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,760
just never bored always with a 
project like some kind of craft,

717
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,400
just crafting, crafting, 
crafting. 

718
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,120
My sister also paints a lot. 
And so I think in the beginning 

719
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,560
I was kind of intimidated and 
because they're so great and I 

720
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,040
thought I could never do this. 
And then I think on tour, I 

721
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,720
started just sketch drying, 
doodling a little bit because 

722
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:18,960
you're waiting so much, right? 
And and you know, I don't think 

723
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,320
Instagram was as big as it was 
or TikTok wasn't, wasn't around.

724
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,520
So you know, you're waiting, 
you're bored. 

725
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,000
There's only Facebook. 
You can only, you know, you can 

726
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,120
only look at so much now, you 
know, now like I would never do 

727
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,840
anything because I'm just 
scrolling. 

728
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,960
But but no, I was, I was just 
doodling. 

729
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,680
And then little by little, the 
doodles were like, Oh, you know,

730
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,240
well, what if I added some 
colors? 

731
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,560
And then I started, I bought 
like I was in Japan. 

732
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,840
I bought this Sumiye ink 
watercolor set and it, the, the 

733
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,480
colors were so incredible. 
And I thought, this is, I'll 

734
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,280
show you actually, it's this 
brand, it's this, I'm obsessed. 

735
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,440
So like. 
So. 

736
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,600
Pretty colors were I was upset I
mean look at these they're. 

737
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:05,960
Incredible. 
That's beautiful. 

738
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,360
That looks like art. 
I didn't. 

739
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,000
I thought that was just printed 
on the thing. 

740
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,240
She's showing me the inside of 
the paint case and I thought it 

741
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:16,440
was like a printed design on 
there, but it's just her testing

742
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,920
the colors and stuff. 
They're very beautiful. 

743
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:21,320
And they're like really vibrant 
and gorgeous. 

744
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,320
And so I started making little 
drawings with that, like 

745
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,600
terrible drawings, but it was 
fun. 

746
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,520
And then I thought like, I don't
know what came over me. 

747
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,680
And I thought, oh, I need to 
like embroidery. 

748
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,480
Like if I embroidery, then I'll 
be able to like make something 

749
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,200
huge and it'll be like. 
And so I just started doing that

750
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,280
little by little and it's been 
so, so much fun. 

751
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,520
And now I'm really obsessed with
this thing called tatting, which

752
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,720
is this wow, which is like a 
type of lace making with like 

753
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,320
this took so long. 
You would not you could not 

754
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,640
believe how long this this took 
weeks and weeks. 

755
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,040
Like, it's it's not that big, 
but basically, yeah. 

756
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:06,400
You make like you make little 
lace situations with a shuttle. 

757
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,000
This is the shuttle. 
And you go back and forth and 

758
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,560
you make knots and, you know, it
ends up being stuff like this. 

759
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,000
And so like, this is a new, this
is a new one. 

760
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,480
Like it took me so long to even 
figure out how to do it. 

761
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,400
It's so hard. 
Like it's such a hard learning 

762
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,760
curve in the very beginning 
because it's like there's one 

763
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,680
move that if you don't get it, 
it just ruins everything. 

764
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,480
So I was like screaming, 
cursing, like so mad because I 

765
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,720
couldn't get it. 
And now I'm obsessed. 

766
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,440
Like I, I, I adore tatting. 
So there's always something, 

767
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,440
there's always like some craft 
going that's awesome because you

768
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,080
know, you want to, you want to 
craft while watching episodes of

769
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,880
Survivor or whatever it is, you 
know, it's just nothing like it.

770
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:58,280
You've got no time for me. 
You've got big things. 

771
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,920
To no, that's impressive. 
I've tried to do. 

772
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,440
I don't know. 
I don't even want to like. 

773
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,520
Say it because no say. 
Compared to like what I mean 

774
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,040
I've done like the little 
embroidery, like kits, you know,

775
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,680
like got them at like estate 
sales, you know, the little like

776
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,320
whatever, make a flower and 
stuff. 

777
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,720
But I have ambitions of like 
more freehand stuff, not I. 

778
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,240
Yes, you've gotta do more. 
You've gotta do freehand. 

779
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,480
It's so it's anyone can do 
freehand. 

780
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:24,680
It's so easy. 
It's nothing. 

781
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,360
It's like you just do what you 
want. 

782
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,720
It's so fun. 
Freehand embroidery is there's 

783
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,960
nothing like it. 
And then with like an audio book

784
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,120
or something. 
Yeah, no, that's my favorite 

785
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,880
thing. 
Cecile's telling me to. 

786
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,320
So I will. 
I'll, I'll get over my, I'll get

787
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,520
over my, myself briefly, Yeah. 
No one's gonna. 

788
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,800
No one needs to see it. 
No one needs to even. 

789
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,880
No, it's not even that. 
It's more like just 

790
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,280
procrastinate, you know what I 
mean? 

791
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,400
Like just kind of like the 
general, like, oh, I'll do that 

792
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,640
another day. 
Not so much like I suffer from, 

793
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,760
you know what I mean? 
No, I suffer from that's 

794
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,840
actually a huge thing for me. 
Like I'll get to, I'll make a 

795
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,960
croissant. 
I'll like a homemade croissant 

796
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,520
because I saw a YouTube video of
somebody doing it. 

797
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,720
And then I've been saying that 
for three years. 

798
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,360
It'll, it'll happen. 
We're all, we're all. 

799
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,120
We're making it happen. 
We're doing it, yes. 

800
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:25,520
Lay your burden down. 
Look to the sky. 

801
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:31,120
It is raining north. 
Before I let you go, I know on 

802
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,640
your sub stack you you had kind 
of like winter obsessions that 

803
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,920
you were sharing. 
Is there anything any more 

804
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,080
recent obsessions that you care 
to share with the? 

805
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,520
Summer obsessions. 
OK, Summer obsessions. 

806
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,640
OK, I do have a summer I have. 
OK, I'm gonna. 

807
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,040
I'm ready. 
I need to calm down. 

808
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,000
To calm down. 
I'm getting. 

809
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,920
OK. 
So first of all, tabbing is 

810
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:02,120
definitely the summer obsession.
I'm obsessed with this matcha 

811
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,040
that I found that's like it's I 
don't it's like a Korean brand 

812
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,720
that has milk in like it's like 
got powdered milk and like kind 

813
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:14,040
of sweet already. 
So it's like already a matcha 

814
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,200
latte that's like very lightly 
sweetened, not too not too 

815
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,560
sweet. 
I don't like it too sweet. 

816
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,360
And you just add a little hot 
water and then cold water if you

817
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:24,680
want to exit. 
It's OK. 

818
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:29,760
That's an obsession. 
Another huge obsession is this 

819
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:35,480
book that I'm reading and it's 
called The Sea, the Sea by Iris 

820
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,320
Murdoch. 
She won the Booker Prize for it.

821
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,560
It is so good. 
It is getting so juicy. 

822
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,360
And I'm reading it as a as an 
actual prank book. 

823
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,440
But I'm also like when I or when
I go on a walk, I listen to it. 

824
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:57,520
OK, which has proven to be 
actually quite annoying because 

825
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:01,320
I, I need to find a good system 
because you're reading a print 

826
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,000
book. 
If you want to listen to the 

827
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,960
aunt, you're like, you're like. 
Fast forward you. 

828
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,080
Have to find the spot. 
It's really it's I'm not, I 

829
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,920
don't have a seamless system 
right now, but we'll get there. 

830
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:18,880
So that's an obsession. 
I'm also now obsessed with this 

831
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,360
thing called the roof Stout 
method. 

832
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,600
So Ruth Stout was like, a famous
gardener and writer, and she 

833
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:32,040
wrote about gardening. 
And who's Gia Gia. 

834
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,960
What's Gia's last name? 
A writer, Gia Tolentina, Yes. 

835
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,520
So she wrote an article about 
Ruth Stout and The New Yorker. 

836
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:40,720
I keep talking about The New 
Yorker today. 

837
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:44,400
What's going on? 
Look, you live in New York, 

838
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:44,840
right? 
That's. 

839
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:46,440
I don't know. 
Yes, this. 

840
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:47,800
Is. 
Crazy. 

841
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,120
But basically Ruth Stout had 
this method. 

842
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,360
It's like mulch, heavy mulch 
gardening or something. 

843
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,480
It's like no work gardening. 
And basically you just have this

844
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,960
space that you don't work on and
you just throw a bunch of 

845
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,160
compost on it and like, somehow 
it works and it's it looks 

846
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,840
horrible, but somehow apparently
you grow a bunch of vegetables. 

847
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,760
So you're saying on accident my 
backyard is actually I've I've 

848
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,440
been doing a method this whole 
time? 

849
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,160
Have you been doing that method?
No, I mean, I just, I'm saying 

850
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,040
it's full of crap. 
Basically. 

851
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,840
I I. 
You're probably 2 steps away. 

852
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,520
So. 
So I, I wish. 

853
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,320
Can I read this to you? 
I'm going to read it to you, OK?

854
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,680
It's on my wall. 
That's how obsessed I am with 

855
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,560
it. 
Here's the roostout method. 

856
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,440
Start with a patch of grass. 
Don't even bother to turn over 

857
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,800
the turf. 
Cover the grass with eight 

858
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,120
inches of hay or straw. 
Don't skimp, and ideally don't 

859
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,640
pay for it. 
You can get spoiled hay from a 

860
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,920
local farmer, or you can barter 
for it. 

861
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:02,200
Maybe, maybe then. 
OK year round. 

862
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:04,600
Throw everything organic on top 
of it. 

863
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,280
Food waste, cardboard, 
newspapers, grass clippings, 

864
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,720
dead leaves, sticks, stumps, 
anything. 

865
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:14,600
All of it. 
Always, when the time comes for 

866
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,480
planting, push the hay aside, 
toss some seeds on the soil 

867
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,280
underneath, and cover it up 
again. 

868
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,080
You'll need to thin your plants 
and pick your vegetables when 

869
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,160
they're ready, but that's all. 
Your garden will be very ugly. 

870
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:28,920
You may hear from your 
neighbors. 

871
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,280
I'm obsessed Now, mind you, I 
don't have a garden. 

872
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,160
I live in an apartment in New 
York. 

873
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,440
But this to me is the way I want
to live my life. 

874
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,000
Like this is a philosophy of 
living of like making art of 

875
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,000
writing. 
Like I am so sick and tired of 

876
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,840
like, you know, outline planning
schedule, like making things so 

877
00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:02,240
just like paralyzingly boring 
and like the idea of just having

878
00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:04,360
this. 
I don't know what it would look 

879
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,640
like with writing. 
I think it I think it looks 

880
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,640
maybe like a journal that you 
just throw everything in. 

881
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,080
Like that's what I that's kind 
of how I'm approaching it. 

882
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:17,560
And similarly, like a logic file
on my computer where I just 

883
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:23,360
throw a bunch of musical ideas 
in and not be so like not have 

884
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,200
to make everything. 
So like I am going to write a 

885
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,240
perfect song right now at this 
moment. 

886
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:34,520
You know, I don't know. 
I just it, it just spoke to me 

887
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,200
so much. 
I know if it's useful for anyone

888
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,880
else. 
But I think there is a thing, I 

889
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,840
mean, going back to the John 
Henry of it all, there is a 

890
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,000
thing of like, maybe we don't 
need to work. 

891
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,040
Like maybe it's not natural for 
us to be working so hard and so 

892
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:55,080
rigid and so stiff and like, 
maybe there's a natural way that

893
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:59,560
things can blossom. 
You know, no, and just like the 

894
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:05,760
worrying, you know, the anxiety 
of it, like I'm having a baby, 

895
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,680
like I'm, I'm pregnant. 
And so it's like all like 

896
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,640
parenting philosophy, you know, 
it comes through my Instagram 

897
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,280
algorithm and like, yeah, 
there's so much like just stuff.

898
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:19,920
But it is like, I'm trying to 
like learn more about like 

899
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,640
Montessori stuff 'cause 
obviously I'm trying to go like 

900
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,000
kind of granola mode a little 
bit. 

901
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,920
But it's like just thinking 
about how you want to expose a 

902
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,480
fresh person to the world for 
the first time. 

903
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:41,200
And like the, I hope to do it 
like slowly and like low 

904
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,520
pressure and like letting, 
letting it happen, you know, 

905
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,200
which is so much of like what 
Montessori is, is like, you 

906
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,360
know, just kind of allowing the 
child to like choose, you know, 

907
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,400
and it's like, OK, we all have 
to like do that, you know, we 

908
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,400
all have to like internalize 
that. 

909
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:01,560
Like trying to just be like, 
what? 

910
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,720
Let's be active participants in 
our own lives, but also like, 

911
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:08,200
let ourselves off the hook at 
the same time. 

912
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,360
Somehow, Yes, yes, yes, yes, 100
percent, 100%. 

913
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,440
Not to get Oh my God. 
Roost out method for babies. 

914
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,040
Are you kidding? 
Yeah, are you? 

915
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:21,880
I will. 
If I just cover the baby with 

916
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,400
hay, yeah, just. 
Cover the baby with hay, 

917
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,680
everything will be fine. 
Yeah, no, but that is like 

918
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,560
truly, it's like trust the 
process vibes, you know, and 

919
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,080
it's. 
Like you can get and it's not 

920
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,280
going to look good. 
It won't look pretty, it won't 

921
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,000
look clean, it won't look 
pretty, but it's going to work. 

922
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,000
It'll be great. 
No, for sure. 

923
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:44,720
Wow. 
Well, that feels like a pretty 

924
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:48,720
good, pretty good place to end. 
We're we're centered. 

925
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:51,080
We're yeah. 
I don't know. 

926
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,760
Is there anything else important
that you want to share with the 

927
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,360
Big Ears Podcast listeners? 
I will share one last thing OK 

928
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:05,120
that I saw on a YouTube video, I
don't remember who random 

929
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,400
YouTube video but it was like 
written on a truck and it said 

930
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,760
if you get tired learn to rest 
not to. 

931
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,840
Quit. 
Wow. 

932
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:17,960
Yeah. 
Which, That's deep. 

933
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:19,960
It's nice. 
I think it's nice. 

934
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:21,480
I think it's nice. 
I mean, sometimes you need to 

935
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:26,200
quit, but but sometimes you just
need to rest. 

936
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,520
Yeah, sometimes the quitting 
might be temporary and you don't

937
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,920
realize it's temporary. 
True, you might think you're 

938
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,920
quitting, but then you come back
to it some other time. 

939
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:36,040
True. 
Very true. 

940
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,840
Maybe, but yeah, definitely 
important when driving, but also

941
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,440
important in life. 
Well, thank you so much, Cecile.

942
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:46,760
Such a pleasure. 
To. 

943
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,400
To get to speak with you. 
It was so fun to talk to you. 

944
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,920
Big Ears Conversations about 
Music is a production of Big 

945
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:02,720
Ears Festival. 
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. 

946
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,680
The show is produced by Matt 
Marowitz. 

947
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,400
This episode was edited by 
Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder.

948
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,120
Ashley Capps is the executive 
and artistic director of Big 

949
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,360
Ears. 
Big Ears 2026 will take place 

950
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,760
March 26th through 29th, 2026 in
Knoxville, TN. 

951
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,120
For more information and 
festival updates, visit 

952
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,440
bigearsfestival.org. 
Thanks for listening and until 

953
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,520
next time, keep those ears wide 
open. 

954
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:44,680
Glowing. 
Embers, the heat remains and 

955
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:45,280
birds.