Welcome to Big Ears Conversations about Music, a
podcast from Big Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti.
Today's episode features an illuminating conversation
between writer and critic Natalie Weiner and Grammy
winning vocalist Cecile Mclaurin Salvant, who will appear at Big
Ears 2026, which runs from March 26th to 29th in 2026.
Together, they explore what it means to be called a jazz
singer, questioning assumptions about scatting, improvisation
and the subtle shifts that make each performance unique.
Salvant, a 2020 MacArthur Fellow, reflects on her musical
upbringing in both classical and jazz traditions and shares her
excitement about venturing beyond jazz on her new Nonsuch
release, Oh Snap. Along the way, she and Weiner
celebrate their mutual admiration for Nancy Wilson,
revisit the legend of John Henry, and dive into Salvant's
expanding work as a textile and visual artist.
It's a revelatory portrait of an artist who remains rooted in
song while constantly expanding her palette as a multimedia post
genre artist. Here's their conversation.
The Buzzard follows us gleefully smelling.
My name is Natalie Weiner. I am a writer based in Dallas.
I've written for all kinds of different publications, New York
Times, Rolling Stone, Builder, etcetera, mostly about jazz,
country music, but also a lot of different things.
And I am so happy to be here on the Big Ears podcast today
speaking with the wonderful, extraordinarily talented Cecile
Mclaurin Salvant. If somehow you are not familiar
with her work already, she really does embody the Big Ears
mission of Stretching Beyond whatever genre is.
And you know, she kind of came out into the jazz world, took it
by storm, but very quickly stretched beyond beyond that.
But also while still being in it.
I don't know, you know, using words to describe the kind of
magic that she creates on stage feels pretty futile.
But and in the recording studio, obviously MacArthur fellow three
time Grammy winner, etcetera, etcetera, all the all the
accolades were speaking shortly before the release of her 7th
studio album O Snap. So yeah, Cecile, welcome to the
podcast. Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me. Of course, it's truly just a
pleasure to be speaking with you.
I mean, just to start with like big years, since it's the Big
Years podcast. What's been your experience of
the festival to this point? You know, obviously it's a kind
of particular mission, you know, that the festival has.
What what has it been like for you and your experiences so far?
And and what does it mean to you to play it?
I think I performed at Big Years once, I believe, and we got to
stay there a couple days, I think, although it's all kind of
a blur to me. But I remember just being able
to see a few bands play and like, walking around the city
and just like, going into like, maybe a church or something and
hearing like, some really strange and beautiful string
quartet play music that I had never heard of.
And we had friends playing the festival as well.
And I just remember it being a really fun time.
And yeah, just musicians and audiences that are both
interested in people who are thinking and pushing and
exploring, and that's always a really fun, fun environment to
be in. Yeah, definitely.
No, I this past year was the first year I had actually gotten
to go just because it sort of, you know, Knoxville is not not
necessarily the easiest place to get to depending on where you're
coming from. But I was just so wowed by how
many people were at these shows, you know what I mean?
Like, I, I lived in New York for a long time.
I, I live in Texas now and it's just like to see like sell out
level crowds for like stuff that's really pretty out, you
know, but that's just the kind of people who get drawn drawn to
going to it, I guess. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. I mean, not to like get
philosophical instantly, but on the question of kind of like
genre and like, obviously you're sort of constantly sort of
pushing it different, different sounds, different ways of
expressing yourself, all that, all that good stuff.
And I, I love that you sometimes have cited Nancy Wilson as, as
an influence. She's one of my personal faves.
And I know she like famously said, like, don't call me a jazz
singer, you know what I mean? And sort of just like she's
like, I interpret songs like that's what I do.
And I know that's more than that.
You're a songwriter as well. But I don't know.
I mean, what? I guess like, how do you feel
yourself fitting into that lineage of people who get called
jazz singers, I guess for for lack of a better, better word.
Well, I feel like it's interesting.
The whole thing is interesting, right?
The genre itself and like what that means.
But also, I particularly get excited by the ways in which
people like the ways musicians deal with it and articulate who
they are. Sometimes by rejecting it,
sometimes by being warriors for it and saying, like, I am the
real jazz historian. I am the real preserver of jazz
or it's not jazz. Jazz is a four letter word.
Don't call it that. Like I I find that to be so so
interesting that a genre would have this much weight on the
name of it. Didn't know what time it was,
then I met you. I wonder sometimes, I mean, I
it's harder for me to say like, I don't know what other artists
in, you know, in other genres, let's say, like what the other
scenes are like. Like I don't know what it's like
in hip hop or rap or something. If people are like, no, I'm not
a rapper. I'm I don't know, I don't know.
But I feel like in jazz, it's like the storied history of
like, it's not jazz. It is jazz.
That's not jazz. This is jazz.
I don't sing jazz. And I think for singers too,
it's it's been quite strange And, and especially for Nancy
Wilson. I mean, she was, she was an
interpreter of songs. I think of her, I suppose in the
jazz tradition, but she might have been, I, I can't speak for
her, but she might have been thinking about singers like a
Betty Carter or Ella or people who were who had different
roles, different interactions with their singing with the band
and thinking, I don't do that. I sing songs.
I don't necessarily see that line between a Nancy Wilson and
a Betty Carter. I just for sure, because I think
it's like it's all individual singers sort of putting their
putting their giving their contribution to this big thing
that is really, really hard to define and hard to hard to find
the boundaries around it. Like does there is improvisation
a prerequisite? Is it, and, and what does that
even mean? What kind of improvisation are
we talking about for singers? Like does it mean that you have
to scat If you don't scat? Are you improvising?
If you don't improvise, Are you a jazz musician?
I mean, I talk about this a lot with Sullivan Fortner, who is
incredible pianist that I that is in my band and that I
collaborate with all the time. And and we talked about the fact
that a lot of these so-called jazz musicians, instrumentalists
had prepared ideas for their solos.
Like it's not just coming out of thin air and always different.
Like some of these people had structures and forms within the
solos and sometimes even a specific solo that they would
play because the audience is even would be like we like we
want. We want to hear a specific solo.
Right. So I think, I think the whole
thing is really, really confusing and fascinating and
it's almost, to me it's more exciting to look at the ways
people deal with it than to actually have a.
Specific like an answer. Definitive.
Like this is what jazz is. This is what a jazz singer does.
This is why jazz is valid. And I'll, I'll speak for myself,
like the way that I've kind of interacted with the genre, with
the word, with the idea is that I think starting out, I was in a
music school. I think that's really when it
started to become this thing. I, I, I didn't know what a jazz
standard was when I was 18, like the word jazz standard and even
the concept of it sort of escaped me.
I was like, what is a jazz standard?
I don't get it. Like what does that mean?
Like how do we define a jazz standard?
And even even now I, it's sort of, I don't know, I don't really
know like where they begin and end.
So I, I think starting off it was really going to school and
having to choose like, OK, you want to be a classical singer or
do you want to be a jazz singer? And then you're like, oh, I, I
guess, I guess it's something that you choose and it's
something that you devote certain times of the day for
certain. Things.
Even though obviously things are cross pollinating and cross
contaminating each other and that's beautiful.
I really early on was like, OK, when I sing jazz, I need to sing
jazz authentically and when I sing classical, I need to sing
classical authentically. Never the twin shall meet.
And I don't want to be like one of those people where you can
tell like I don't want to have an accent, you know what I'm
doing in the other language. And so I became kind of really,
really like the genres were really present in my life and
very important and like laws. And it was all about
authenticity to those specific genres.
And then when I started studying early music and baroque music,
it was like, OK, now this is even a whole other set of laws
and rules and, and, and, and authenticity there and make it
sound like it's real. And I was, of course, told to
choose between the three. Like, you have to choose one
because you're never going to be able to be good at one at 3
things. You can be good at one thing.
And I sort of fought against that, but eventually was like,
OK, I guess I do have to choose one.
And I guess jazz is going well. So I choose jazz.
And then as time goes by, you know, and this is now maybe 20
years later, I'm starting to like reconnect with my childhood
self, like the way that I interacted with music as a
child, the way we interacted with music with my family, which
was no genre, no era, no like no rules, just just music and, and
a lot of music, a lot of different music from all over
the world. I have fallen deep in love with
you. And so little by little, I've
been singing, you know, songs from Purcell and Dowland and
what we would call the early music repertoire, throwing that
into what I do with musicians that are called jazz musicians
and singing Selena songs and, you know, just really kind of
relaxing with everything and not being so tied up in these laws.
Like, they feel like laws that are actually, you know, all up
kind of up for debate. Definitely.
And while I say that, I still also feel like there is a part
of me that loves the rules and loves like, this is what this
is. If it doesn't have these
elements, it's not that like stride piano is stride piano.
If it doesn't have these elements, it's not that like,
you know, So I wrote in my journal today, I'm sorry.
I'm like going on and on. I need to stop talking but like.
No. I need to find, I am still
trying to find a balance between the chaos and the order.
As a musician, as an artist, you know, the, the whole like Apollo
and Dionysus, like I always go to 1 and become like a dictator
in that one. I'm like, I, I must be chaotic
completely. Like there can be no rules.
Anything goes and then like I burn out on that and then I go,
no, we must have order like. So I'm just trying to find a
little bit more balance with that.
I mean, that's a extremely tall order, but it's like so.
Tall. But knowing the rules in order
to break them thing, right, That's a, that's a cliche, I
think for a reason, you know. No, totally, totally.
With what you're saying, sort of like returning to childhood,
like being looser, it feels like this new album is definitely a
product of that loosening. Yeah, I mean, it is, I think, I
think literally anything that I do is just going to be sort of
go hand in hand with that. I think what's special about
this next album is that it really comes from the home and
from me being alone, not being front facing.
It's very similar to the way I make like drawings and artwork.
Like for me, no one is watching me.
It's not for anyone else. And I just started playing in
garage band, honestly on my iPad on tour.
And then I got back home and I'd like plug in a garage band to a
keyboard that I had. And then I was just having fun.
I would like choose a loop, random loop and just have fun.
And I realized that I was getting, I was just really drawn
to like dance music. Like I was just naturally making
dance music, dance traps and making myself dance in my room
without even like some of the sometimes not, no melody, like
just playing chords over this loop.
And then little by little, it's just built into more and more
and adding lyrics and it became its own thing.
So naturally so not calculated, which, you know, it's so hard to
do that for, you know, like I was telling you, you know, the
order, my gosh, the orderliness be like, OK, then what?
What must the next album be? The concept must be this like
this was just it just came out of play.
Really. It was like similar to like
playing Tetris on my computer or something or like, you know, I,
I actually really think of it like when I was a kid and I had
a Casio keyboard in my room and I would turn the lights off and
put one of the beats from the keyboard and just like play
random chords and just have a great time and like not record
it just for myself. And so I was making these tracks
and like saving them to files in my computer and I was never
going to share them with anyone. And little by little, I'd tweak
them a little bit more and tweak them a little bit more.
And, and, you know, I, I really do compare it to like my
embroideries because it was like, let me go back and like
add a little character here and let me fix this.
And let me just. And so, you know, over the
course of four or five years, things were starting to get a
little bit more meat on them. And they're like, some of these
are actually songs. And and I thought maybe I should
release them under a different name or maybe I should release.
Them. Wait, did you have any like
alter ego names picked out? I did, but I refused to share
them. Here we don't get a.
Software you can use it. But yeah, so I, I was like, you
know, what if I wear a wig and like, have a different name and
like, wear weird different glasses and like, no one will
know. And I thought I'd be freed.
Like, like it would somehow free me from having to be me all the
time and, and present my music. You know, it was like, I don't
know. I think an alter ego, the idea
of an alter ego is so enticing to everyone, like whether you're
a musician or not, it's like if I could just finally rid myself
of me for just like an hour, there'd be so many completely
different. And so, so it started off like
that and then I don't know what happened.
Like I wanted to put them out as demos for free or like put them
out on band camp or. And then I was like, oh, maybe I
should just like, I don't know what the moment was, but there
was a moment last year where I thought I could, I could just be
a little bit more ambitious with this and like put it out like
add like two or three things in the studio, like not do much,
but add two or three like live instruments and just put it on
as a record and it doesn't matter.
Like, and, and having to remind myself, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be good, it doesn't matter, it doesn't
matter. Like it doesn't matter, you
know, Sure. And as that sort of happened, we
went into the studio a couple times.
We started really, I started really working on the tracks and
I just have never had so much fun making music before.
I, I'm, I'm playing keys, like I never play keys.
Like I'm always around amazing pianist.
I'm scared to play keys. I'm playing keys.
I'm like playing bass, synth bass.
Like I had so, so much fun making this.
It is really a reflection of like, I think what the music in
my head sounds like or what some of the music in my head sounds
like. You know, reflection of so many
of my influences growing up like **NSYNC and Backstreet Boys and
like those kinds of things that I never really you know, share
like disco and and funk and like also still having like straight
ahead like acoustic so-called jazz on there to.
Like I I didn't want it to be like Cecile does a dance album
either. I just wanted to be kind of just
real and authentic and like have everything that I was playing
with at the time and have it just be this really humble.
Like this is these are some files that I on my computer, you
know? OK, I think you're underselling
it just a tad, but. No, yeah.
I mean, at this point, I think it's, and to be honest, I'm the
most proud of this because it's like, actually the most real
thing. Like it's real.
Yeah. And you know, I have a track
that ended up on like dance playlists and like indie
playlists, which is which felt so crazy to me.
Like it felt great because it felt like that would I could
net. I would have never thought that
I would ever. Wait like the the O snap like
the? O Snap is yeah, the first single
is like on some dance playlists and on some indie playlists.
And I was like, I never would have thought that I would ever
get out of this like jazz label, like, you know, and I was fine
with it. Like, I don't care, I'll do
whatever I want and I don't like you call it what you want, but
for it to be called that out externally was exciting.
It felt, it felt a little bit like, Oh my God, the alter ego
thing is happening. Like I am sort of in a way
somewhere else where people don't know me and it's great.
Yeah, no, that's awesome. Looking at some of the materials
for the album, like the press materials and, and you're
talking about sort of the strictures of the like the
feeling of orderliness or like, you know, however, like you're
saying, you've been doing like extremely outside the box stuff,
you know, now for a while. It's not like this is your first
foray into like challenging jazz norms or whatever you want to
whatever we want to say. But at the same time, I, I was
struck by the way you talked about how there's this
expectation of like a clean sound in the in the studio when
it comes to like, you know, maybe albums you've made in the
past and just sort of like a particular way of producing
them. Because that is like one of my
chief gripes with jazz quotes. I'm doing air quotes right now,
you know, like records. It is just like that gloss, you
know, the Sheen as you describe it, and just sort of the feeling
that like the only thing that's important are the notes.
So we need to hear the notes like extremely clearly.
And it's like, that doesn't actually recreate like, the live
experience of hearing improvised music, you know?
Yeah, like I think, yeah, I think the Sheen sounds like
we're talking about like Charlie Sheen or something.
You know, Speaking of Charlie Sheen, like I do, this will make
sense. I feel like especially today,
which is the day, you know, I know I'm old.
I'm I'm old to say like at before I say this.
Sentence You're not an old person.
She's not old. But this is OK.
I might not be old, but this is an old person sentence, OK?
We have AI. We have Ozempic.
Yeah, we have all kinds of, like, clean.
We have all kinds of gorgeous, incredible plastic surgery in,
you know, figuratively and literally.
We have so many ways to just clean everything up in and in in
the studio. We have so much beautiful
technology to make everything sound perfect, and we celebrate
people who sound perfect who are technically incredible.
I just feel like in that in this world, in that world, which
still are also, by the way, still is a world full of mess,
but just not in those places. Like it's full of mess in life.
So like in in place, like people can't get food mess, right.
But like I'm just kind of like if I could just if there could
be a little mess, I'm I'm happy if it can be a little pitchy, if
there can be a mistake. Like I used to think this before
and I didn't really know why I used to think this when I
started, I was like, I want things to be a little bit rough
and gritty and like messy. And I want it to feel natural.
And for me now, it's like I think more than ever, it's not
even. I want it to feel natural
because I like the theatricality of it.
Like I like the heightened thing.
And I just especially in the music industry now, like
everybody's afraid of taking risks.
And it's just, I think it's important to have a little mess.
I just really more and more and that was the final part of my
old my old old old ass statement being old.
I don't think it sounded old. If that's old, I guess I'm old
too, which is probably true, but but.
By the way, I've always been old, by the way, but I was born
old. No, an old soul, Sure, for sure.
But yeah, no, I think it's just it.
It is. I don't know.
I think there are so many lines around acceptability and jazz,
which is so funny for a thing that is like predicated on
liberation and freedom, you know, as like a big part of what
it is and the production style as we're talking about anyway,
it just, it continually irks me. Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny because it's like it's an age-old thing, right?
Like it's something from the from the first early days of
American Music is like this really weird tug of war thing
that's going on between like, you know, innovation.
Any kind of innovation, any kind of risk taking is going to be
messy. Sure.
And that might end up being successful by accident.
And then it's like trying to recreate that through the
generations, but make it cleaner and make it better.
And none of the none of the mess like right.
And then, you know, you get into a new space and you try to mess
that like and do something new in there.
Like it's just, I think it's just part of the cycles of, of
definitely, I'll just say American Music and, and
especially in the music industry, like we've just
musicians have always had to deal with that.
And it is interesting to see how creatively they deal with like
having to deal with the expectations and the pressures
and needing to be perfect, but also wanting to be real
sometimes it's kind of nice to have that, that friction there.
Like, I think it creates, it creates really great music too,
you know? For sure.
No, I mean, we can't. No, I see.
I totally get what you're saying.
I think it's like there wouldn't be the.
It wouldn't be exciting, you know?
Yeah. We need the, we need the world,
we need the whole world. We need all of it.
I know another emphasis point of emphasis in this album was like
the more private way that you made it, like you said, like
likening it to to the your visual art, your textile work,
your drawing, like, and on stage, I feel like you are so
good at the theatrical elements. Like you're saying like that is
such a potent part of your performance is like the the way
that you draw people in. And I feel like draw from like
the cabaret tradition, you know, in a way that's like somewhat,
you know, we talk about jazz. Jazz has all these like sort of
positive things associated with it, like, oh, like credibility.
You know, cabaret is more like middlebrow.
You know, people like maybe don't have the same kind of
respect for it. And I don't know.
I mean, how, how did you sort of come to that like to
appreciating that part of it, I guess or or having that be part
of your practice? I love that you said that.
I think someone once said that I was a postmodern cabaret, which
was like, I kind of like it 'cause I was like, I love
cabaret. I mean, I, I love Broadway, I
love cabaret. I love those singers.
Julie Wilson was an incredible cabaret singer and Broadway
singer. She's like my queen.
I I live and die for Elaine Stritch.
She is my N. She is like my North Star.
She's she's my alpha and Omega. Like I.
So there's something about that world that speaks to me so, so,
so deeply as somebody who likes storytelling and acting and like
theater and drama. And I also am very drawn to
things that have a reputation, like a sort of bad reputation.
Yeah. Camp, camp, camp.
It's camp. I love the banjo.
For a long time, the banjo was sort of aligned.
It still kind of is. I think maybe I love like,
Renaissance music and lutes and I love accordions.
Like, you know, if someone tells me old cabaret is like corny and
like, nobody wants to like, you need to be a, you need to be a
real jazz singer, you shouldn't be like a cabaret.
I'm like, oh, that's then exactly what I want to do is
what you're saying is bad. So, yeah, I mean, I, I adore
that stuff. I mean, I I wouldn't say like,
like Barbra Streisand isn't a cabaret singer because she's so
famous, but she probably would have been a cabaret singer,
don't you think? Yeah.
Like, because she's still. I mean, obviously she's not, but
where are we putting her? If if she was not a huge star,
that's where we would put her. Yeah.
She'd be like, at a club in New York singing gorgeous, gorgeous
show tunes, and it would be insane.
Am I crazy? Is that bad?
Would she hate me for saying that?
I. Don't think so.
No, I mean, I think like, I don't know, I feel like the
lines, like obviously all those, all the lines are so blurry.
And I think like, you know, like you think of like a Blossom
Dearie, you know, or like a, you know, even a Nancy Wilson.
You know, these are people who like, you know, were so invested
in, in telling stories and sort of creating these intimate
emotional environments. Like I, I loved in another
interview where you said, like, I want to like be telling
secrets on stage or like gossiping, you know, and I feel
like that's a very cabaret tone, you know, like just between you
and I, you know, we're like, we're going here together, you
know, like I'm taking you on this journey.
But just like creating that intimacy, I feel like is is
really part of that. Yeah, I think, you know, and I
think probably also the thing with like, what was that whole
scene is that it's like a very New York, very queer, like drag
queen adjacent gay scene and and Broadway scene, Broadway ish
scene. And I am like I feel so at home
and at ease in those spaces and so excited in those spaces.
I also feel like there's such an element of like humor and like
Cabaret, like Hasso's cabaret is like laughing.
Like it's like it's it's comedy. It's a comedy show too.
And as you were saying, it's extremely camp and like I just I
love that. I do love that stuff.
So like I, I do think that sometimes jazz scene doesn't
really necessarily scratch that itch completely, you know, Well,
I think there is something a little self self serious about
it. Right.
Exactly. Yeah, No, I think like the way
you do, like never will I marry, you know, I mean, there's like
in that one and there's another one on that album that is
escaping me right now. But I just like, it's all like
everyone's cracking up, you know?
Like you can hear it because it's a, it's a live album.
Like you're making people laugh. You know, there's punch lines.
You're drawing out the punch lines that already exist in
these by standards, you know, in a way saying that.
Yeah. Thank you for saying that.
I mean, just thank you for making the music.
Never, never will I marry. Born to wonder till I'm dead.
No burdens, too bad, no conscience, no cares.
No memories too more, no turning.
In that vein of sort of approaching standards
differently, I have to just selfishly use this opportunity
to talk to you about John Henry, which is just one of my, I feel
like your performance of that song, I got to see you do it at
Newport, which was really just wonderful.
No, no I this would have been now many years ago pre pandemic.
I was. Showing my showing my age but.
We literally just did it. Oh, really?
Yeah, we just did it at Newport like last week or whatever 10
days ago, but totally differently.
We do it totally differently than the way I did it then.
Yeah, I'm curious. Wait, say what you were going to
say? I'm sorry.
Now I want to hear the new take, but.
But no, I just when obviously that song has been recorded by
like literally 500 million people, you know, in very, very,
very different ways. Yeah.
And you do many standards that have been frequently recorded
just as often as you do songs that are, you know, deep in the
archives and all that stuff. I mean, when it comes to
something like that, I guess specifically even with John
Henry, like how how do you approach it?
How do you find your own, your own place in the story of that
song, I guess. Well, it's so interesting you're
bringing it up because I think, you know, I used to do it.
There's a period I was doing it a lot whatever, let's say 8
years ago or seven years ago. And then I stopped doing it for
many years. And then recently, like last
year, I started singing it again.
I don't know why. I just felt like singing it
again. And I think it totally
differently, like the beat, the rhythm is different.
Like there's, there's no like everyone in the on in the
bandstand is just on the bandstand is just clapping and I
kind of take the melody where I want to take it.
Like there's no actually, I won't say what I do because it
changes every time, but it has totally, totally morphed and
transformed over the years. So even my own version, like the
version that I might have recorded is unrecognizable to
me. I would never sing it that way
ever. The words would be the same, but
like the melody is different. The intention is different.
What I think about is different. You know, I used to think that
song was really like man against the machine.
And like, you know, it's he's he's like he's fighting, you
know, for everybody's rights to like make things by hand and
like humans matter and, you know, the machines will not
destroy us or whatever and like will.
But now, and it's funny because I just read an article in The
New Yorker about this, about perfectionism, and there's this
thing, there's this, this phenomenon that was coined I
think in the 70s. I'm not sure when actually, and
I'm not sure by who, but it's called John Henryism.
Yeah, no, I know. I.
You know about? This.
Yeah, Yeah. No, just because I had a moment
with the song and I was like trying to learn all this stuff.
Anyway, keep keep talking. So I had read about John
Henryism years ago and I kind of was like, oh, that's
interesting, interesting coincidence.
That's about this thing. And then I kind of forgot about
it. And then recently I like, I was
like, wait, wait, wait. Let me actually sit with this
and think about the idea of John Henryism, which is I think,
correct me if I'm wrong, but this very particular, you know,
phenomenon in African American community that is like, you must
work until you drop dead because the system is that hard.
And you have to prove that like, and you have to be on 3000% at
all times and you are. And then your hypertension is
through the roof and then you have you get a heart attack and
you die. Yeah.
And it's like this. It's like this real phenomenon.
And I thought, oh, like I think I had read it before and didn't.
It didn't, they didn't hit me then.
I think now I as I am really coming to terms with my
perfectionism, which is oddly not like it doesn't show up in
the places that I like. I'm very controlling about how
my perfectionism shows up. That's how bad it is because I
know that perfectionism isn't good.
So, you know, going back to what we were talking about, like
things being messy, like even that for me is like there is a
sort of control there, right? Yeah.
So, so anyway, so I was thinking about like the way in which I
and people around me, particularly musicians that I
talk to, are constantly, constantly trying to work
towards an ideal that is impossible, beating ourselves up
over not doing things the right way.
It's not just me. I literally like these are
conversation I have with so many of my musician friends, so many
of my friends that are non musicians, like people are so
exhausted trying to be perfect all the time.
And you know, it just hit me in a totally different way.
I thought, Oh my God, this is really so tragic.
Yeah, yeah. So tragic.
And it's such a like, he's not, I mean, he's a hero, but he's
not a hero. Like he's not a hero to look up
to and want to be like. And I think for a long time I
just looked up to him. I thought, oh, John Henry killed
himself to prove that he could beat the machine.
What a great guy. And now I go, Oh no, like, why
would he have? Why should he even have to do?
Like why would he think he had to do that?
Yeah. That is tragic.
It's like, I don't know the story like it's truly so wild to
me still just like I, I think about it all the time and I feel
like it is sort of the most American story there is
basically, you know, and it really sort of like the the ways
that people have embraced it and performed it and in my mind
sometimes misunderstood it or whatever it, it's all very
fascinating. I don't know if you've read the
Colson White book, Colson Whitehead Book, John Henry, John
Henry. But it's in this, it's in this
article, they talk about it in this article.
And I was like, I really read this book.
I got about this book the article you're going.
To love the article. OK, I'll go find it.
But yeah, John Henry Days by Colson Whitehead.
It's phenomenal. It's like now one of my new
favorite books of all time. It's just literally he he has
both a modern day allegory for John Henry that he kind of
intersperses with different John Henry related stories like
through the novel, you know, so it's kind.
Of all like. Thematically connected anyway my
new dream and maybe we can manifest this at big ears.
You know, is you and Colson Whitehead in conversation about
John Henry because I think that would be like that would that's
that's my I'm I'm putting it into the world.
I'm future. I love that that is such a good
idea. But yeah, the book is, is truly
wonderful. I, I, it sent me on a Colson
Whitehead terror and I I've now read like all his stuff, but
it's so good. And I just felt like he really
does a lot of work with like the musical history of the song too,
in the novel, you know, and with research that like, I'm shocked
that I mean, of course he's like taking some liberties, like it's
fiction, but like more or less he's tracing the arc of the
song, you know, as it sort of travelled through, you know,
generations and stuff. And I'm like, I'm so impressed
that he did all this research and whatever, I found it
illuminating. I.
Cannot wait to read this book. When I cannot wait to read the
article. Hopefully, hopefully the people
listening to this will appreciate this tangent.
But John Henry, it's like it's real.
I I keep getting annoyed because I see people like this is just
because I'm on the Internet too much, but like people doing like
John Henry memes, you know, and I'm like, what?
You're pissing me off like so much because.
I feel like you don't. Even understand what John just
like about random stuff about like AI or whatever.
Like trying to like use John Henry in their jokes, you know,
and I'm just like, you don't like know so much more serious
than than that, you know, like I love a joke.
I love I love a meme. I love, you know, obviously I'm
extremely online. Like whatever, I get it.
But like, no, it's too heavy. Like you can't.
You can't do that. I need to see these John Henry
memes. I'm going to lift them up.
No, you don't want to. They're too stupid.
John Henry was a little baby sitting on his papa's knees.
Well, it picked up a hammer and a little.
Piece of steel. So this hammer's gonna be the
death of me. You are described now as like a
multi hyphenate, you know, like singer-songwriter, artist, blah
blah. But I feel like maybe it's more
like you're a multimedia artist, you know, like you just have
different media that you work in, you know?
That's nice. That would be right.
That I love that. I, I aspire to that.
I would love that. That's great.
Yes, but. Please.
I mean like how, how did the kind of more tactile media enter
your enter your life, the the textiles and the drawing and all
that kind of stuff. It was always around because I
come from a generation. I come from many generations of
women doing textile art. My mom, my grandma, my sister,
my great grandma, probably further back.
They all have some kind of textile art practice.
Because your mom has never called.
An art practice, right? Right.
They just say we're making, we're crocheting things, we're
making a dress. You know, my mom made this dress
that I'm wearing. She makes a lot of the dresses
that I wear. My sister makes incredible plush
dolls and sculptures and beautiful, like insane, like she
makes like biblical scenes, like gruesome biblical scenes in
plush dolls. They're gorgeous.
My grandmother used to do a lot of applique, beautiful applique,
beautiful. My great grandmother used to do
a lot of textiles. So I, I am just following in
their lead. I've, I've, you know, my mom
paints a lot. She does a lot.
She makes a lot of stuff. She's like, she's like the
ultimate Sunday painter. She would work during the week
and then come home and like all weekend.
Like, I don't know, she'd like make a chair or wow, like do an
embroidery and alphabet or make lace.
She knows how to do Bob and lace.
She so I just saw this growing up, just like, you know, people
just never bored always with a project like some kind of craft,
just crafting, crafting, crafting.
My sister also paints a lot. And so I think in the beginning
I was kind of intimidated and because they're so great and I
thought I could never do this. And then I think on tour, I
started just sketch drying, doodling a little bit because
you're waiting so much, right? And and you know, I don't think
Instagram was as big as it was or TikTok wasn't, wasn't around.
So you know, you're waiting, you're bored.
There's only Facebook. You can only, you know, you can
only look at so much now, you know, now like I would never do
anything because I'm just scrolling.
But but no, I was, I was just doodling.
And then little by little, the doodles were like, Oh, you know,
well, what if I added some colors?
And then I started, I bought like I was in Japan.
I bought this Sumiye ink watercolor set and it, the, the
colors were so incredible. And I thought, this is, I'll
show you actually, it's this brand, it's this, I'm obsessed.
So like. So.
Pretty colors were I was upset I mean look at these they're.
Incredible. That's beautiful.
That looks like art. I didn't.
I thought that was just printed on the thing.
She's showing me the inside of the paint case and I thought it
was like a printed design on there, but it's just her testing
the colors and stuff. They're very beautiful.
And they're like really vibrant and gorgeous.
And so I started making little drawings with that, like
terrible drawings, but it was fun.
And then I thought like, I don't know what came over me.
And I thought, oh, I need to like embroidery.
Like if I embroidery, then I'll be able to like make something
huge and it'll be like. And so I just started doing that
little by little and it's been so, so much fun.
And now I'm really obsessed with this thing called tatting, which
is this wow, which is like a type of lace making with like
this took so long. You would not you could not
believe how long this this took weeks and weeks.
Like, it's it's not that big, but basically, yeah.
You make like you make little lace situations with a shuttle.
This is the shuttle. And you go back and forth and
you make knots and, you know, it ends up being stuff like this.
And so like, this is a new, this is a new one.
Like it took me so long to even figure out how to do it.
It's so hard. Like it's such a hard learning
curve in the very beginning because it's like there's one
move that if you don't get it, it just ruins everything.
So I was like screaming, cursing, like so mad because I
couldn't get it. And now I'm obsessed.
Like I, I, I adore tatting. So there's always something,
there's always like some craft going that's awesome because you
know, you want to, you want to craft while watching episodes of
Survivor or whatever it is, you know, it's just nothing like it.
You've got no time for me. You've got big things.
To no, that's impressive. I've tried to do.
I don't know. I don't even want to like.
Say it because no say. Compared to like what I mean
I've done like the little embroidery, like kits, you know,
like got them at like estate sales, you know, the little like
whatever, make a flower and stuff.
But I have ambitions of like more freehand stuff, not I.
Yes, you've gotta do more. You've gotta do freehand.
It's so it's anyone can do freehand.
It's so easy. It's nothing.
It's like you just do what you want.
It's so fun. Freehand embroidery is there's
nothing like it. And then with like an audio book
or something. Yeah, no, that's my favorite
thing. Cecile's telling me to.
So I will. I'll, I'll get over my, I'll get
over my, myself briefly, Yeah. No one's gonna.
No one needs to see it. No one needs to even.
No, it's not even that. It's more like just
procrastinate, you know what I mean?
Like just kind of like the general, like, oh, I'll do that
another day. Not so much like I suffer from,
you know what I mean? No, I suffer from that's
actually a huge thing for me. Like I'll get to, I'll make a
croissant. I'll like a homemade croissant
because I saw a YouTube video of somebody doing it.
And then I've been saying that for three years.
It'll, it'll happen. We're all, we're all.
We're making it happen. We're doing it, yes.
Lay your burden down. Look to the sky.
It is raining north. Before I let you go, I know on
your sub stack you you had kind of like winter obsessions that
you were sharing. Is there anything any more
recent obsessions that you care to share with the?
Summer obsessions. OK, Summer obsessions.
OK, I do have a summer I have. OK, I'm gonna.
I'm ready. I need to calm down.
To calm down. I'm getting.
OK. So first of all, tabbing is
definitely the summer obsession. I'm obsessed with this matcha
that I found that's like it's I don't it's like a Korean brand
that has milk in like it's like got powdered milk and like kind
of sweet already. So it's like already a matcha
latte that's like very lightly sweetened, not too not too
sweet. I don't like it too sweet.
And you just add a little hot water and then cold water if you
want to exit. It's OK.
That's an obsession. Another huge obsession is this
book that I'm reading and it's called The Sea, the Sea by Iris
Murdoch. She won the Booker Prize for it.
It is so good. It is getting so juicy.
And I'm reading it as a as an actual prank book.
But I'm also like when I or when I go on a walk, I listen to it.
OK, which has proven to be actually quite annoying because
I, I need to find a good system because you're reading a print
book. If you want to listen to the
aunt, you're like, you're like. Fast forward you.
Have to find the spot. It's really it's I'm not, I
don't have a seamless system right now, but we'll get there.
So that's an obsession. I'm also now obsessed with this
thing called the roof Stout method.
So Ruth Stout was like, a famous gardener and writer, and she
wrote about gardening. And who's Gia Gia.
What's Gia's last name? A writer, Gia Tolentina, Yes.
So she wrote an article about Ruth Stout and The New Yorker.
I keep talking about The New Yorker today.
What's going on? Look, you live in New York,
right? That's.
I don't know. Yes, this.
Is. Crazy.
But basically Ruth Stout had this method.
It's like mulch, heavy mulch gardening or something.
It's like no work gardening. And basically you just have this
space that you don't work on and you just throw a bunch of
compost on it and like, somehow it works and it's it looks
horrible, but somehow apparently you grow a bunch of vegetables.
So you're saying on accident my backyard is actually I've I've
been doing a method this whole time?
Have you been doing that method? No, I mean, I just, I'm saying
it's full of crap. Basically.
I I. You're probably 2 steps away.
So. So I, I wish.
Can I read this to you? I'm going to read it to you, OK?
It's on my wall. That's how obsessed I am with
it. Here's the roostout method.
Start with a patch of grass. Don't even bother to turn over
the turf. Cover the grass with eight
inches of hay or straw. Don't skimp, and ideally don't
pay for it. You can get spoiled hay from a
local farmer, or you can barter for it.
Maybe, maybe then. OK year round.
Throw everything organic on top of it.
Food waste, cardboard, newspapers, grass clippings,
dead leaves, sticks, stumps, anything.
All of it. Always, when the time comes for
planting, push the hay aside, toss some seeds on the soil
underneath, and cover it up again.
You'll need to thin your plants and pick your vegetables when
they're ready, but that's all. Your garden will be very ugly.
You may hear from your neighbors.
I'm obsessed Now, mind you, I don't have a garden.
I live in an apartment in New York.
But this to me is the way I want to live my life.
Like this is a philosophy of living of like making art of
writing. Like I am so sick and tired of
like, you know, outline planning schedule, like making things so
just like paralyzingly boring and like the idea of just having
this. I don't know what it would look
like with writing. I think it I think it looks
maybe like a journal that you just throw everything in.
Like that's what I that's kind of how I'm approaching it.
And similarly, like a logic file on my computer where I just
throw a bunch of musical ideas in and not be so like not have
to make everything. So like I am going to write a
perfect song right now at this moment.
You know, I don't know. I just it, it just spoke to me
so much. I know if it's useful for anyone
else. But I think there is a thing, I
mean, going back to the John Henry of it all, there is a
thing of like, maybe we don't need to work.
Like maybe it's not natural for us to be working so hard and so
rigid and so stiff and like, maybe there's a natural way that
things can blossom. You know, no, and just like the
worrying, you know, the anxiety of it, like I'm having a baby,
like I'm, I'm pregnant. And so it's like all like
parenting philosophy, you know, it comes through my Instagram
algorithm and like, yeah, there's so much like just stuff.
But it is like, I'm trying to like learn more about like
Montessori stuff 'cause obviously I'm trying to go like
kind of granola mode a little bit.
But it's like just thinking about how you want to expose a
fresh person to the world for the first time.
And like the, I hope to do it like slowly and like low
pressure and like letting, letting it happen, you know,
which is so much of like what Montessori is, is like, you
know, just kind of allowing the child to like choose, you know,
and it's like, OK, we all have to like do that, you know, we
all have to like internalize that.
Like trying to just be like, what?
Let's be active participants in our own lives, but also like,
let ourselves off the hook at the same time.
Somehow, Yes, yes, yes, yes, 100 percent, 100%.
Not to get Oh my God. Roost out method for babies.
Are you kidding? Yeah, are you?
I will. If I just cover the baby with
hay, yeah, just. Cover the baby with hay,
everything will be fine. Yeah, no, but that is like
truly, it's like trust the process vibes, you know, and
it's. Like you can get and it's not
going to look good. It won't look pretty, it won't
look clean, it won't look pretty, but it's going to work.
It'll be great. No, for sure.
Wow. Well, that feels like a pretty
good, pretty good place to end. We're we're centered.
We're yeah. I don't know.
Is there anything else important that you want to share with the
Big Ears Podcast listeners? I will share one last thing OK
that I saw on a YouTube video, I don't remember who random
YouTube video but it was like written on a truck and it said
if you get tired learn to rest not to.
Quit. Wow.
Yeah. Which, That's deep.
It's nice. I think it's nice.
I mean, sometimes you need to
quit, but but sometimes you just need to rest.
Yeah, sometimes the quitting might be temporary and you don't
realize it's temporary. True, you might think you're
quitting, but then you come back to it some other time.
True. Very true.
Maybe, but yeah, definitely important when driving, but also
important in life. Well, thank you so much, Cecile.
Such a pleasure. To.
To get to speak with you. It was so fun to talk to you.
Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big
Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti.
The show is produced by Matt Marowitz.
This episode was edited by Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder.
Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big
Ears. Big Ears 2026 will take place
March 26th through 29th, 2026 in Knoxville, TN.
For more information and festival updates, visit
bigearsfestival.org. Thanks for listening and until
next time, keep those ears wide open.
Glowing. Embers, the heat remains and
birds.