1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,480 Welcome to Big Ears Conversations About Music, a 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,760 podcast from Big Ears Festival. Each episode brings listeners 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,280 into dialogue with artists shaping the sounds of today. 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,120 From deep listening to radical experimentation, these are the 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,800 stories, sounds, and ideas animating our global music 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,600 ecosystem. I am Sarah Gilletti. 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:35,400 We're glad you're here today on the podcast, a deep and 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,360 searching live conversation from Big Ears 2025 between NPR music 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,480 critic and author Ann Powers and three remarkable artists whose 10 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:47,640 practices reach far beyond the boundaries of genre. 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,960 Vocalist, double bassist and composer Ganavia, Multi 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,000 instrumentalist and scene connector Carlos Nino and 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,440 British poet, saxophonist in troubadour. 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,520 Alabaster de plume. In this wide-ranging interview, 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,920 they explore themes of interdependence, the evolving 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,200 meaning of community and the porous line between art and 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,560 everyday life. Have a listen. 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,720 Little one. I am so grateful for you to be 19 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:24,960 here. You're all having 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,320 extraordinarily busy festivals, making community even as we 21 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:32,440 speak. I don't know how many of you got 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,080 to see these wonderful performers in many different 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:43,120 contexts and incarnations. Carlos has been hosting a salon 24 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,240 every night. Yeah. 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Last night and tonight, yeah. Thank you. 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,000 And you also played with Carlos and friends. 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Yes, Thursday night, yeah. And then we have a concert 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,520 tomorrow morning as well, and we're here and yeah, stoked. 29 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,440 And and Ganavia's, if you saw Emmanuel Wilkins amazing Blues 30 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,720 blood performance yesterday, Ganavia was a featured singer. 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,960 You also sang with Carlos last night. 32 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,680 Yeah. Yesterday was Esperanza with 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Carlos and with Emmanuel and the day before I guess I think was 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,280 it the day before? Sorry, I'm looking to my 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,800 husband. His sense of time is so much 36 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:27,080 better than mine was with Elder Charles Lloyd and and Bill 37 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:27,600 Frisell. Harry. 38 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Shot Oh my God, I missed these things. 39 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,680 For the Zakir Hussein tribute and today is I'm sorry, I'm I'm 40 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,920 not actually trying to convince you to come to any of this. 41 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:43,320 This was my way of trying to remember to today is 5:00 PM. 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,880 I'm looking at him again, is my yeah. 43 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:53,400 And then tomorrow is sleep. And Alabaster performed your set 44 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,200 at AMIL mine yesterday and you just performed as well. 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,360 I did a secret thing. Don't tell anyone about that 46 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,800 though. Do you have anything else? 47 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Happened. I don't know about it myself, 48 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,400 I'm completely confused. Well, you know, now that now you 49 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,640 recognize them, you can find them where they will, where they 50 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:18,000 will be. So as I said, this is the 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,960 moment, such a crucial moment for us to talk about community. 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,680 That word can be meaningful or meaningless. 53 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,880 It's one of those words that's thrown around sometimes as a 54 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,720 brand or as a marketing term or something. 55 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,000 But yeah, these artists truly center their work on building 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,880 community. And my first question is like a 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,280 chicken and egg question, which is maybe unanswerable, Which is 58 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,520 for you, which came first, the desire to make music or the 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,760 desire to be in community with others? 60 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,320 Or is that even distinguishable? Earlier, you very lovingly told 61 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,280 us that you would give us containers and questions, but 62 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,200 that you had an ATV that we could go off the path. 63 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,240 I was raised in a tradition called the Vadakari Sampradaya, 64 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,800 which literally means the tradition of those who go on the 65 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,000 path. And it's a pilgrimage tradition 66 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,320 where we sing songs and we walk for days towards the temple. 67 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,160 And the nature of the music is different from what my family 68 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,680 traditionally practiced, which is Carnatic music, which is 69 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,920 classical music. And even Carnatic music is a 70 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,840 little bit of a essentialist project that was born from a 71 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:39,120 hurting people who wanted to prove that they too had a kind 72 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,760 of systemized, but really Carnatic music. 73 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,200 And I think all music is just folk music that has kind of been 74 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,520 formalized. But the thing about Carnatic 75 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:58,360 music in my limited experience of life is it's closer to 76 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,360 priesthood in the sense that you're supposed to somehow 77 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,120 perform a kind of virtuosity and be so special that people can 78 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:10,240 project upon you approaching with your virtuosity and command 79 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,440 of language a closeness with God, whatever God is. 80 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:20,360 And it's created. I, I, I feel so much tenderness 81 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,160 towards so many of my cousins who have, who have chosen that 82 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,280 way of life because for any of us who have pride, for any of us 83 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,600 who have, we just want to be loved. 84 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,080 We're all just kids. And if, maybe if we play at the 85 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,040 right venues and if we're seen at the right people. 86 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,120 And if I don't, I, I, I know so many elders who I think are as 87 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,600 close to enlightenment as possible. 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,880 And still they're still, you can still in moments see the child 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,720 and them being like, am I loved? And I think any kind of music 90 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,880 where we have to prove our worth through our virtuosity is meant 91 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,520 for maybe a stronger heart than mine. 92 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,520 The Vadakari Sam Pradaya on the other end was music that was 93 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,920 about singing together, because that's the only way you can 94 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,680 survive walking in the desert for days. 95 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,600 And the songs are called abhangs, which means songs 96 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,760 without ends. And you can string the poems on. 97 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,880 Even with Carlos yesterday, those are the songs that came 98 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,120 out of me in my most comfortable moments. 99 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,520 Those are the songs that come out. 100 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,720 They have a steady rhythm. They just help you walk. 101 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:27,040 And music in that moment is about the important thing is to 102 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:28,960 create a form that everyone can witness together. 103 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,520 It is not about creating a form that someone can witness you 104 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,640 performing. And so in a literal way, to talk 105 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,120 about your ATV, to talk about paths, about the way I was 106 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:47,560 trained, My heart wasn't meant for that other kind of prayer, 107 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,080 which is almost obsessive virtuosity. 108 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,680 But my life has been saved by people giving me a place to show 109 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,720 up the next day and sing. And so, yeah, I mean, I also 110 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,680 think that I think it was Gwdada who said a very long time ago, 111 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,960 oh, sorry. It's it sounds more violent now 112 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,840 that if I say it, when Gwdada say it, it, it doesn't sound 113 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:10,240 violent. But Gwdada said he wishes that 114 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,120 people would like, beat the word improvisation to death. 115 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,640 And I, I, I can, I can understand semantic saturation. 116 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,080 And I wonder if that happens with the word community as well. 117 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:21,680 I just mean to say I don't know shit. 118 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:28,480 But but whatever that has meant to me, they every single person 119 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,400 who has sung with me and asks me to sing is saving my life. 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,960 Yeah. Would either of you like to 121 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,400 respond? I'll I'll respond to your 122 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,800 question. I love Ganavia, so just grateful 123 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,200 to be here. But for me it's like, what are 124 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,440 you here for? I don't I don't think about it 125 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:53,960 as music. I don't think about it as 126 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,640 building community. It's like I see us here because 127 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,840 we wanted to have a very specific, in a lot of ways are 128 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,760 lucky to be having a very specific experience on the earth 129 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,320 together. That doesn't mean we do 130 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,480 everything together, doesn't mean we agree, but we're here 131 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,480 together and we're not just here together with humans. 132 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,800 We're here together with this magical planet, which is in the 133 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:23,560 community of planets. We're we're here, but in a very 134 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,600 physical togetherness kind of way like that is happening. 135 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,760 So for me, it's like, what do you feel? 136 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,640 How, what are you inspired to do? 137 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,000 What do you, what can you do? What do you have access to do? 138 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,320 What are you going to create access to do? 139 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:46,720 And I think with us here on this, in this panel, if we're 140 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,480 called a panel in this gathering, it's definitely 141 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:58,120 related to sound and it's definitely related to word and 142 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,480 this feeling, this vibration. So for me, that's kind of the 143 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,280 big question is like, what are you here to do? 144 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,200 You know why? Why do you feel like you're 145 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,920 here? That's sort of at the, at the 146 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,840 root of all of it for me. So like, yeah, I, I care about 147 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,640 others because I feel like I chose to be here with others, 148 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,200 not to not be here. I could be somewhere else. 149 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,760 So and. You're talking in a profound way 150 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,240 about choose to be here. You mean on Earth in the as 151 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,280 being in the body you're in? 100%, yeah, Yeah. 152 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:39,680 And I feel like that's something that we all have and it's, it's 153 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:41,800 amazing, but it's also challenging. 154 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,760 And so, you know, we're, we're dancing through it as well as we 155 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:52,280 can, helping others with their steps, with their experiences. 156 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:54,920 But yeah, that's that's how I see it. 157 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,000 Beautiful. How has it evolved for you, 158 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,480 Alabaster? How has what evolved? 159 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,920 Your exactly music making process coming out of and 160 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,160 connected to community making or connecting with others. 161 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,680 I don't know if I would say that I'm really creating community. 162 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:23,520 Well, I, I, I'm cautious too. I think what I'm working on 163 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,360 makes connection between people. But those people will go on to 164 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,880 make community. It's theirs. 165 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,280 Does that make sense? I do a lot of travelling, but 166 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:44,120 although I I am connected to some communities and it is their 167 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,960 demand that I should be myself makes me myself. 168 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:58,960 And the the the challenge of the artists I'm connected to by the 169 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,600 way that they are. And the people that I'm 170 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,800 connected to are sister or otherwise and my friends in 171 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,600 London or in Palestine. And they the, the, the depth of 172 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,640 their dignity demands of me my depth of dignity. 173 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,000 But the in terms of the work, like the actual my tunes or 174 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,200 whatever, and the way I am on the stage, am I creating 175 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,800 community in this work? I don't know. 176 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:33,680 But I'm working on connection on I'm working on igniting us to 177 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,840 connect with one another. And if we where we go on to 178 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:43,640 connect with one another, the connections we create and 179 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,200 community we create is is belongs to those people who have 180 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,480 chosen to do that thing. And a community is a it is not 181 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,360 just a connection between people. 182 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,800 It's it's got, it's got or it's got organs, hasn't it? 183 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:03,120 It's like takes real building. There's a like a real, like a 184 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,640 community. And I don't know how exactly I 185 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,520 would define the word community, but I am flying around a lot in 186 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,240 this world and going and doing my RT shit. 187 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,320 Can I say yes, I am building community when there are, you 188 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,680 know, like, really there's the real gritty work of creating 189 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:27,720 community that like, you know, anarchists and communists are 190 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,080 working on like in deep ways. I don't know. 191 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,160 But I'm a vague hunter. I'm a vague Pisces. 192 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,080 I, I mean, I love how we're starting this conversation by 193 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,760 questioning the very terms that that we're conversing about. 194 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,520 And I think that's really important. 195 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,880 And, and, and you sort of raised this right now because you've 196 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,480 often said, and you said it just now, the word music itself, you 197 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,800 feel can be limiting, like making a distinction and also 198 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,360 gonna be, I think about your tradition that you came from 199 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,760 the, the training you had. I mean, how rigorous or how 200 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:25,000 rigid are the boundaries around what music is versus, I don't 201 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:32,680 know, speech acts, prayer, intimate conversations, talking 202 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:36,760 to yourself, all the other forms of, of making sound and 203 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,320 connecting with people. Like how has the narrowing of 204 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,800 the definition of music even? I'm getting very like heady 205 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,360 already, but but how does that definition limit us and how can 206 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:54,720 we expand it? I mean, sorry, they told me I 207 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,720 was supposed to take this off. I was trying to be lazy. 208 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,600 It was not working out. I was trying to be lazy. 209 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,560 Tell me one thing music did to me after too much heavy metal in 210 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,240 my youth is I'm not very good at hearing so I appreciate you guys 211 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,960 speaking up. No, my mom and dad, my mom and 212 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,400 dad come on tour with me these days because I had a little bit 213 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,840 of an injury when I was on tour. Hey Shahzad, how you doing? 214 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,640 We all love this dear brother right here. 215 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,640 Yes. I think we conjured his 216 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:31,440 presence. My mom and dad come on tour with 217 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,480 me these days because I had somewhat of an injury five years 218 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:42,120 ago in in when I was on tour. The kind that is horrific to 219 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,720 admit to a parent. And the only way I can show them 220 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,280 that it's unsafe, that it's safe and, well, it's sometimes 221 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,680 unsafe, but that it's mostly safe and beautiful, is by 222 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,720 bringing them on tour with me and. 223 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,760 Yeah, there's nothing like it. Yeah, and then they get to see 224 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,760 this. Last week they were with me and 225 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,960 with Felix, so I keep looking to over there, but they were with 226 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,760 us in Australia, which is the farthest they've come on tour. 227 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,120 Shahzad that knows my parents very well because I keep asking 228 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,000 my friends to play with them. The reason why I'm, I think I'm 229 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,040 thinking about this right now is twofold. 1 My mother's only 230 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,880 request to me is please pick up the microphone and stop mumbling 231 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,080 when you're speaking. So in honour of Vidya Dari 232 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,680 Swami, I picked up the microphone. 233 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,040 Thank you. The second reason is that my 234 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:46,480 mother, My name Ganavya means some of you probably know this. 235 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,120 My name Ganavya means one who was born to spread music. 236 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:56,520 So she, and it's fine. If you call me Ganavia, then it 237 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,600 means one who was born to spread weight, which is fine. 238 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:05,720 I, I love cooking. So my mom, I think my mom really 239 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,880 wanted to be a musician, but you know, my dad was like the fifth 240 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,120 of nine children. My mom was the 9:50, I think, 241 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:20,120 and she met, she could memorize everything and play it 242 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,360 perfectly. So if she had been born, I think 243 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,680 in a, in a music system where that was beautiful, she would 244 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,280 have done so well. Like my understanding of Western 245 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,240 classical music, my mom would have been perfect for it. 246 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,160 But in Indian music or what's roughly known as South Asian 247 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:43,640 music, Manod Dharmam, which is the law of heart, which is 248 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:50,560 improvisation, was not something that my mom was able to find 249 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,520 easily, which meant she could have no real music career in in 250 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,800 India. She played the Vinay and she can 251 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,040 still play the pieces that she learnt when she was child 252 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,120 perfectly on the Vinay. She's memorized them. 253 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,160 But the ATV was not to be found in her mind. 254 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,200 And because of that, she couldn't really live life as a 255 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,280 musician. So sometimes I feel like 256 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,240 whatever is happening in my life is to carry. 257 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Yeah, you guys know what I'm talking about. 258 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,480 Anyway, the point is my father was the son of my grandmother 259 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,720 who is a well known musician named Sita Duriswami. 260 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:34,600 But because of how history would turn out, my father's generation 261 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,440 was the kind of generation where the patronage system kind of 262 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:43,080 fell apart in India, which meant the musicians grew up in extreme 263 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,000 poverty while we were finding our likes back as a family. 264 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,240 And so my grandmother taught a lot of people music, but she 265 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,920 could not teach her kids, which meant my father learnt a lot by 266 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,920 osmosis but has a beautiful voice but also couldn't practice 267 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:05,720 music professionally. And I think the first time was 268 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320 four years ago when I asked them to come on stage and sing with 269 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,440 me and they were terrified and horrified and they thought what 270 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,200 they make is not music and it should not and cannot be 271 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:21,000 allowed. Now they assume, they assume 272 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,240 that they will be on stage with me and they no longer have a 273 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,880 question of whether or not. So now they just come on and 274 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,200 they pray whatever they want to pray. 275 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,080 And my friends, including Shaza Desmili, who's sitting in the 276 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:37,360 2nd row, second from the center, everyone, my parents know what 277 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:43,880 the word crew list is. And to me, at that moment, music 278 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,680 or whatever it is, I mean, I feel like, you know, I don't 279 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,000 have anything profound to say on that front, is that the 280 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:54,120 formalization of what we think is legitimate form. 281 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,800 I understand it comes from it can come from a good place, more 282 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,840 often comes from a terrified place, but causes pain. 283 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,880 And more than anything, I just wonder what's going on in the 284 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:18,720 mind of that heart because I barely have enough weird, which 285 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,640 is a thermal word for life force to kind of carry through with 286 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,520 the tasks that have been put in front of me for me to handle. 287 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,760 I can't imagine what is going through someone's mind that they 288 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,200 have enough life force in them to be able to say I am an 289 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:40,640 authority on, on, on that, on that form. 290 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:46,680 So that was a very non useful ATV ramble. 291 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,480 But my parents, the the essence of that story is that my parents 292 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,760 now call them musician, call themselves musicians. 293 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,640 And it took three years. And maybe the last thing I'll 294 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,440 tell you is my grandmother had something called the kitchen 295 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,400 orchestra where in South India, maybe some of you know, I can 296 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,240 see some of your faces. If you're a Carnatic musician, 297 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,640 being a musician is akin to being. 298 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,720 A spiritual prophet almost. The better you are at music, the 299 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,720 better you're considered to be closer to God because the 300 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,240 understanding is that God has to bless you to understand, not 301 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,120 them or sound, which is dangerous because then very good 302 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,920 musicians can become abusive and no one wants to talk to them. 303 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,760 As some of you may know, paedophilia is very common in 304 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,440 Indian classical music for this reason, because they don't know 305 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,360 how to be human elsewhere, sexuality is condemned and then 306 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,640 their needs go on the most vulnerable of people. 307 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,040 And it's nobody knows how to talk about it, but it's very 308 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,400 common. So and also there's a habit of 309 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,120 humans marrying people. Humans who are good at music, 310 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:51,160 marrying people are not good at music, good at music because 311 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,000 then they can feel more special. So my grandmother had this thing 312 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,560 called the kitchen orchestra where people could come and make 313 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,960 instruments from whatever they could in the kitchen and then 314 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,920 they would go to whatever prestigious, lots of prestigious 315 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,080 venues she was given. God, she drove everyone crazy. 316 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,240 She would just bring everybody and they would just sing songs 317 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:15,520 and kitchen. So yeah, I've spoken enough on 318 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,120 the panel, but now you have my whole summary of what I think 319 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,120 about that. Thought's response? 320 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,960 To your, to your question, language is evolving. 321 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,120 So I don't feel beholden to any of these terms, any of these 322 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,480 labels. I think they're meant to evolve. 323 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,240 We're meant to poetically and otherwise look at them and 324 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,440 decide if they're right for us and not agree to anything in 325 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,040 regard to our language or these definitions. 326 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:54,560 And that's part of our life. Another thing is, and and I want 327 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,040 to say this in like the sweetest way, but like Gnavia, I feel 328 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:02,760 like the life force you're referring to is regenerative. 329 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,400 And I, for one, would like to be a friend to you, to offer you 330 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,840 and Felix and your family more life force because I love you 331 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,160 being here on the planet. And I want you to feel as much 332 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,600 energy flow, an abundant amount of ability to be yourself. 333 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,560 So that's my response. That's very beautiful. 334 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:34,720 There is an aspect of the bringing family into the touring 335 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,760 dynamic, I think. I feel like Shahzad is good at 336 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,920 that. I've got some other friends who 337 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:47,000 are who are good at that. There is a sometimes some of us 338 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:53,640 escape the fact that we could be musicians by believing that 339 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,720 musicians must always be in pain. 340 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:05,280 The artist must suffer so, and I didn't choose to suffer so or 341 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:11,000 the artist can't have a family. I have chosen this instead. 342 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,320 But of course you know to receive the fact that you could 343 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,920 have had a life of creating joyous art, but you have done 344 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,520 some shit job instead. The order to receive that is it 345 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,360 takes in immense grief and we we will escape grief above all else 346 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,800 sometimes. So it's a lot to ask someone to 347 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,400 see that. But perhaps there is an aspect 348 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,680 of like bringing family into like artistic, creative things 349 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,560 that can be a part of like this question of community. 350 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:51,360 And I'll be talking about wider community worldwide connections. 351 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,160 Like one of the main things I like doing about Palestine is to 352 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,040 personally be connected with human beings there because this 353 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,160 is a simple, it's not like an invented politics that I am 354 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,200 coming to. Oh, I've got my politics. 355 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,080 I must do to the world genuinely, authentically. 356 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,480 I have connections with in the West Bank and I love them. 357 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,840 I love those people. And when I go there as I'm just 358 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,240 a bloke, Yanni on just going to a place on holiday and seeing my 359 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,240 friends, it happens. That is occupied by brutal 360 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,880 imperialism. Are we talking about making 361 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,000 community around across different parts of the world, 362 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:44,960 across different ways of life? Shall I seek to involve in my 363 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,840 community some of the characters in of this part of the world? 364 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:56,000 Actually, specifically, especially perhaps in order to. 365 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Because I believe your original thing is you'd like to oppose 366 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,520 the fascism. Yeah, that was the original 367 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,040 thing, wasn't it? Like we were like, you know, 368 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,360 there's fascism, we want to talk about community. 369 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,480 That was it. So and so do we do that by 370 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:20,520 connecting, by involving people who are local to situations that 371 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,560 parts of the world, political things that support the aura, 372 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:32,880 part of the the fascist project, the imperial projects bring them 373 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,800 into our community to include their humanity. 374 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:48,960 Because our position is, I believe that community embraces 375 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,240 the humanity. The fascism itself excludes it. 376 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,760 I guess that leads me to want to ask a question about how working 377 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,560 like the commodification of music and music as a product. 378 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:21,000 And you know, we live in late capitalism and release music 379 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,000 through the music industry or perhaps we release it in other 380 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,200 ways. And we are at a music festival 381 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,280 where we feel love and joy and also people have paid to be here 382 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,440 and performers are paid etcetera. 383 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:40,840 And I think there's always a fascinating tension between kind 384 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,760 of that aspect of music making, the professional side, as it 385 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:52,520 were, and the political, cultural, spiritual side. 386 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:59,720 And is it most useful to kind of let that tension dissolve in 387 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,560 your own mind, or how do you deal with that aspect of things? 388 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,120 Like, I guess the reason I thought of that after what 389 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,960 Alabaster was saying is that I think it's impossible to have a 390 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:17,440 conversation invoking the terms you invoked without also talking 391 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,720 about commerce and capitalism, which is doing so much to. 392 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,440 Why is that? Why? 393 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,320 Because because it is an engine through which these other. 394 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,360 Capitalism is, but doing business is separate to 395 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:32,440 capitalism. No talk. 396 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,840 To a little more about. That oh, I love this. 397 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,920 I love this. It like bless capitalism. 398 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,880 It likes to believe that it is all business. 399 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:52,320 Capitalism is a system whereby industry and trade are 400 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000 controlled by private individuals for profit. 401 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,240 So there there was no capitalism before there was industry. 402 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,480 It's only a couple of 100 years old. 403 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,560 It's not a basic part of humanity. 404 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,360 It loves to. Of course, I forgot I'm in the 405 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,720 United States of America. And there was no capitalism 406 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,400 before there was imperialism and colonialism. 407 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,440 Well, yeah, it's, it's not a old thing. 408 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,800 We have always done business. We can do good business without 409 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:29,000 being an asshole. You have it like you don't have 410 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000 to have. I'm going to sell T-shirts. 411 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,520 Does not make me a capitalist. If I'm like, oh, I'll give you 412 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,720 this thing and you know, I can borrow some of that. 413 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,720 It does not make me a capitalist. 414 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,440 That I can do. I can thrive without being a 415 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,160 fucking capitalist. And we can do this good business 416 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,080 that this does not make us capitalists. 417 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,120 I I, I would love that and I want and I'm going to believe. 418 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,520 That enjoy it, enjoy it, you are free. 419 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,920 I want to turn that question to you because. 420 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:08,680 It's, it's very complex. I think it's very multifaceted. 421 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,640 I wouldn't right really try to explain all of my feelings about 422 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,360 it right now. I will say that as we're 423 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:21,480 talking, I'm thinking about a love supreme or eternal now or 424 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,960 there's a riot going on or all the messages that do come 425 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:33,240 through that artists are people, their feelings, their thoughts, 426 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,640 their feelings, their their hearts are coming through. 427 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,320 And so I see a lot of these so-called industry realities as 428 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:48,280 like outlets, their means. They're not ideal, but I 429 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,960 wouldn't spend my time fighting against them as much as I would 430 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,000 be interested in continuing to share what I can now. 431 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:04,120 I do care very much about people being owned, enslaved, 432 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,080 monopolized, exploited. Those are all things that I will 433 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,360 actively concurrently stand up against and fight against and 434 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,400 make decisions to not participate in. 435 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 But you know, like I, I think about my footprint sometime I 436 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,920 like to get here, I had to fly on a plane and those planes I 437 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,960 don't agree with with, with the with that industry. 438 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,760 I don't agree with how I'm treated in an airport, but I had 439 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,960 to get here. Another thing would be like, if 440 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,760 I didn't do that and I drove here, how much more time does 441 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,440 that keep me away from my family? 442 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280 And what resources does that take up? 443 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,840 So we're always making decisions that are kind of supporting and 444 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,400 in some ways in rebellion against industry. 445 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,960 And I think we need to make our best decisions. 446 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,040 You know, I can't decide that for you. 447 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,200 I wouldn't presume to, but there's there's a lot that we're 448 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200 all dealing with with all of this and I and I think about all 449 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:12,520 of it as balanced as possible. And I think that to Gus's point, 450 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,280 to Alabaster's point, excuse me there, there is a, an 451 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,160 interesting, you know, way in which business can be done. 452 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,200 Like Ashley over there can speak more about how, you know, Bob 453 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:35,000 feel and impulse records really was to John Coltrane and Don 454 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,200 over there can talk a lot about the inner workings of the 455 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,880 industry as he runs Blue Note Records. 456 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,760 But it's it's like they're good people, you know, like, did did 457 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,920 all the artists that I love get treated well? 458 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,680 Did they ultimately get taken care of? 459 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,080 I would, I would say no, But also was there some good 460 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,640 business happening where there's some good intentions, where 461 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,760 they're like hugely inspirational and meaningful 462 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,000 projects that came to light and reach people all over the world? 463 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,960 And am I glad about that? Yeah, I'm glad about that. 464 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,480 You know, I don't think that that's because of the industry, 465 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,520 but it did involve the industry in that time in that way, and it 466 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,280 continues to. So do we have the ability to 467 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,640 affect that? Do we have the ability to change 468 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,040 that? Are we always thinking about 469 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,040 creative ways to connect outside of that? 470 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,240 Yeah, we have to. I mean, that's that's that's 471 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,280 like all of our elders, everybody that we all work with 472 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,960 will talk with us about that time. 473 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,920 They released the project independently, then decided to 474 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,160 start their own record label or join the collective that created 475 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,800 something outside of the industry and then also worked 476 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,560 with the industry, hopefully in this best business way to do 477 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,720 something else that was worthwhile. 478 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,760 And I think all of that applies. That's kind of what we're 479 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,520 dealing with. And I don't know the inner 480 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,560 workings of the industry in India, but Ganavia's point, can 481 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,720 can you say the name? Because because I know you and 482 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,120 I've worked with you and I love you. 483 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,000 I want to say your name, right? I want to say it forever. 484 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,280 Can can you can you Ganavia? Ganavia. 485 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,360 OK, great. So this industry of Indian 486 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,480 classical music, which is a gigantic industry, I mean, like 487 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,880 I have countless albums, you know, we're we're dealing with 488 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,000 this all over the world. These these are some of the same 489 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,720 things. Not not the same traditions 490 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,560 necessarily not the same cultures or same circumstances 491 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:54,160 always, of course not. But but like, still it's, it's, 492 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,560 it's happening. So, you know, like how do we 493 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,960 relate with it? How do we participate? 494 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,080 How do we protest? All of that is happening. 495 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,320 All of that is, is active all the time. 496 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,360 So, you know, I feel like, yeah, yeah, that's how I feel about 497 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,880 it. Yeah, no, that's very well said. 498 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,440 You know, in every in every garden where things are growing, 499 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,239 some things are designated weeds, some things change the 500 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,120 pattern, some things come up and form new, new patterns. 501 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,560 And within any system, even one that can be oppressive, can be 502 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,520 exploitative. There are are are things 503 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,280 happening that change the shape. And I think that's maybe maybe 504 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,280 that's what I feel like that's kind of what you're getting at. 505 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,679 Like move through. Don't think you can live in a 506 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:44,320 different kind of space entirely where we are in the world. 507 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,639 Move through as in move through what we'll. 508 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,199 Move through the system we live in and make your own. 509 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:53,920 Well, I don't know. I'm not going to tell anyone 510 00:34:53,920 --> 00:35:04,440 else what to do, but I love to deny words like business to 511 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,720 those who wish to divide us. Words like work. 512 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,920 Work is supposed to. I'm supposed to think of work as 513 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,560 that shit thing I have to do to get money. 514 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,120 But I don't want to. Yanni. 515 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,720 But maybe it's easy for me to say, you know, I'm very lucky. 516 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,720 But I like seeing my work as my works on this earth. 517 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,400 That might influence as I have time, as I spend time on this 518 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,200 earth. The things I do, that's my work. 519 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,720 These words have different contexts and in, in an 520 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,680 interpretation also, and I think that's a really key thing is 521 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,240 like, and one of the things that was brought up about 522 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,640 improvisation is a big one too, because I used to love that word 523 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,400 and now I don't use that word, but I, I, I also feel like maybe 524 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,640 I'll use it again at some point and I feel like somebody might 525 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,880 use it. That I think is, wow, that's the 526 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,960 best use of that word I could imagine, right. 527 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,360 So these words are alive. They're not fixed. 528 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,640 They can't be anybody who tells you that they are doesn't, isn't 529 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,720 really alive in my opinion, that they don't really know what's 530 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:17,640 going on. Language is meant to evolve. 531 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,520 It is evolving whether we want it to or not also. 532 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,960 So that's exciting. Cause work. 533 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,400 Yeah, I think about like work. I think about like so many 534 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,000 different ways that I've heard the, the use of the word work. 535 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,760 And I'm like, there's a version of the word work where I'm like, 536 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,000 I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm fighting that. 537 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,440 And then there's another version and many others where I'm like, 538 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,040 think about people who use the word in regard to like dancing, 539 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,600 like, like work, like let's work, you know, I'm like, hell 540 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,080 yeah. Like, yeah, you know, or, or 541 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,640 your life's work in this, in this tone, in this context, or 542 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,360 like, you know, or like I'm working to, you know, you know, 543 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,040 it's all context and interpretation. 544 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,920 Does that work for? You. 545 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,240 We're getting to some specifics about like different places that 546 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,320 raised all y'all we you know, thank you Ganavia for talking 547 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,680 about your roots and the system in which you came up and the 548 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,520 family in which you came up. I know, Alistair. 549 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,920 Sorry, Alabaster, you're the total Refreshment center was a 550 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:37,280 very important space for you and and and for you Carlos, the 551 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,440 Bodhi Tree Bookstore, Aaron's Records. 552 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,080 The world stage. Yeah, these different informal 553 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,320 spaces that again getting back to the question about commerce 554 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,200 and its place like these are places of supposed commerce that 555 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,440 also were nurturing in family spaces. 556 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,640 So I wonder if we can talk a little bit about how, and maybe 557 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,280 for you this has been, you've discovered spaces like that too, 558 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:09,360 spaces where community and connection forms informally and 559 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,360 grows and and remains. What's that space? 560 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,440 I've seen you sing a name, Are you? 561 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,040 The Chapel. Yeah. 562 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,440 Four years ago, Esperanza found at the height of the pandemic, 563 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,320 she went to a place that's about two hours away from Portland, 564 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,480 OR. And I went there to visit her, 565 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,480 but then got into a little bit of a foot accident and ended up 566 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,000 accidentally moving there because I couldn't walk. 567 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,680 And that's a great. Title for. 568 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:48,920 Somebody. Yeah, Accidental. 569 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,440 I did, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did there. 570 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:58,840 And at that time I was working with a lovely human named Peter 571 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,640 Sellers with an A not the actor he's known for having vertical 572 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,480 hair. I was with another Peter the 573 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,440 other day, Peter Gabriel. And I was like Peter Sellers and 574 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,960 he goes the actor or the vertical hair, vertical hair. 575 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,000 Peter Sellers and I were studying something called the 576 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,160 Femaliketi Sutra, which is the Buddhist text. 577 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,640 And at the time I was learning how to make into song chapter 2, 578 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,360 which is called the body. Speaking of commerce, it says 579 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,920 this body is owner less like the earth, selfless like water, like 580 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,720 fire. This body has no body, 581 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,240 impersonal like wind, ego less like space. 582 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,560 So it's it's just this whole beautiful essay on ownership or 583 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,480 lack of ownership. So I was out there learning how 584 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,200 to sing this whole scripture, speaking also of commerce. 585 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,080 We recorded it in Van Gelder and nobody has heard it, and I don't 586 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,160 know that anyone will. It's an unreleased album that'll 587 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,600 probably sit there forever, which I'm OK with because I 588 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:03,920 think that's part of The thing is like, allow just doing the 589 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,360 thing for the sake of wanting to do the thing because it makes 590 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,480 you a better something and. It knows as. 591 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,200 Well, and then you don't need to. 592 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,600 You don't need to be so pressed with whether or not it's seen by 593 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,800 other people. It's like, it's not like, I 594 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:23,440 mean, I'm, I'm not a mother yet of a human, but I hope my love 595 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,840 for my child is not dependent on how many people praise the 596 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,240 child. So which is neither here nor 597 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,240 there. But I was working on on this 598 00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:44,490 with Peter and because I could not walk, I think it's moments 599 00:40:44,530 --> 00:40:48,010 of injury that truly shows me the way of love. 600 00:40:48,010 --> 00:40:54,440 Because like, you know, you can't take a shit without help. 601 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,800 You have necrosis eating away at your foot and you just have to 602 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,080 remember how much you cannot do anything by yourself. 603 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,840 And then someone is there helping you walk and feeding 604 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,560 you. And she taught me how to walk. 605 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:17,080 And feels almost too personal to say this out loud, but it's 606 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,920 true. And so she, she was living in a 607 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,320 cabin and there was a Chapel and we ended up renting the Chapel 608 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,920 and because I couldn't walk, I, I lived in the Chapel. 609 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:38,240 And, and there's an elder Malido Massoume, who has since 610 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,760 transitioned. But Esperanza had a theory that 611 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:51,000 maybe the necrosis that was developing was greater than just 612 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,640 a physical thing, that maybe there is a part of me that 613 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,120 something past this light, past this observable life was. 614 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,960 So she took me to a series of elders who then took me to a 615 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,080 series of elders, and they all diagnosed me with the same 616 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,520 issue, which I feel like it's probably more than you bargained 617 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,840 for, so I won't get into it. But one of the things he said is 618 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,840 that you're going to pick up a, a wooden wand of sorts. 619 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,240 It's going to help you walk. Of course, I, I hadn't told him 620 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:21,560 anything. And it was on October 18th that 621 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,280 Esperanza. So she left me her base. 622 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,600 And I am a vocalist. So I don't know how to explain 623 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,720 this to y'all, but my, since my instrument is inside myself, I 624 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:39,480 did not understand at the time that like your whole life can 625 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,720 live in your instrument because you know, it's like a Speaking 626 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:45,800 of community. It's like you're in community 627 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,960 with these beautiful objects. And I didn't, I didn't 628 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,000 understand that. So like I didn't understand what 629 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,320 a gift it was that she just left her base with me and I was just 630 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,720 there detuning it and dancing and doing, laying it on the 631 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,240 side, doing whatever I wanted to, which is something I think 632 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:02,560 Shazad is also like is, is a she chose a preciousness of human 633 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,080 over the object. But I, yes, I started playing it 634 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,840 like a child plays the bass. It wasn't until I was calling 635 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,080 all my friends all the time, and I called Alfredo Rodriguez, 636 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,640 who's a piano player. And then he was like, is that 637 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:16,720 Esperanza's bass? And I was like, yeah. 638 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:18,560 And he was like, you should not be detuning it like that. 639 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,720 He's like such a vocalist girl. I know. 640 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,120 And then I and then I called her immediately panicking because, 641 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,640 like, I can't walk the 10 minutes. 642 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,440 And I was like, I'm so sorry. And she said something really 643 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,320 beautiful, which was it's OK, you can, you can do whatever you 644 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,960 want to do. Just don't let go of it so much 645 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,920 that the sound post goes away. And to me, that is also a 646 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:46,760 community is, is the Vimla Kirti Sutra says love is not the tight 647 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,680 fist of a bad teacher. And I don't want to tighten my 648 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,880 grasp on you because I don't want to be alone so much that it 649 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,720 feels like at any moment the neck of the instrument could 650 00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:01,680 snap. But I also want it to be loose 651 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,440 enough that not so loose that the sound Post Falls off, you 652 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,640 know what I mean? But to very longly answer the 653 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,840 question, that's how I found myself in that Chapel with the 654 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,120 bass that that that changed my life. 655 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,000 But you know, even even daughter of a temple that was recorded, I 656 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,760 have no idea where the 90K or 100K came from. 657 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,000 It just every single time something needed to happen, a 658 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,600 series of miracles happened. You know, so I feel like the 659 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,960 only real non renewable currency is probably time. 660 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,640 But the only real currency is love. 661 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:45,920 And I am I have no idea. I'm so I'm I'm I don't know what 662 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,080 the word I'm I, I know truly nothing of how everything works 663 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,920 out, but it keeps working out and I can promise you it has 664 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:59,280 nothing to do with the with money on my so I I agree with 665 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,800 with that marketplace. The different marketplace is the 666 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,200 one that's kept me alive, you know? 667 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,680 Yeah, the money just makes it possible, isn't it? 668 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,480 Like somebody wanted to book me for something once and she's 669 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,080 like, I'll make sure there's enough money to make it worth 670 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,000 your while. And I'm like, yeah, the money, 671 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,560 it's not going to make it worthwhile. 672 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,240 The people make it worthwhile. The music makes it worthwhile. 673 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,680 The money just makes it possible. 674 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,000 I think the question I had for you was how did you said earlier 675 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,200 that when you thought about this panel that you knew that you 676 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,440 wanted the three of us? But why? 677 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:50,560 Because for me, each of you represents an approach to music 678 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:59,800 making that creates a space or represents a space that is 679 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,320 unique and, and that provides a model, different kinds of 680 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,440 models. That's sort of my motivation, 681 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,240 that daughter of a temple, especially for me and your 682 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,360 things you've said like like washing the feet of your 683 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,600 companions and your even your audience members that and and 684 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,160 your music that there is a way in which it's not just that it's 685 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,400 inviting, it's that there's there's an yeah, it just is 686 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,080 building something that is. There's an agitation as well. 687 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,040 Yes, it's, it's, it's warm and sweet, but it, it is an 688 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,640 agitation because we've got work to do. 689 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:47,200 I think we don't. We have work to do and we're 690 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,000 going to need, we're going to need each other for it. 691 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,320 But not that work that that. Yeah, we got. 692 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,440 We got this other work. And I, I think it's pretty clear 693 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,920 how what you've done, Carlos, creates these different kinds of 694 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:06,640 environments where the work we need to do can arise, you know, 695 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,520 and it just seems gonna be like such an important moment to 696 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,080 gather people together to share models, share ideas and. 697 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,080 But the things they're really going to do, if they are going 698 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,240 to do something, is going to be their idea. 699 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,720 I'm a very stubborn human being. And if you want to make sure I 700 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,880 don't do something, tell me to do it. 701 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,520 And that's how I treat everyone else as well. 702 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,280 You know, if, if, if anyone is going to really do something, 703 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,240 they have to come up with it themselves. 704 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,440 The one way to make it impossible for someone to 705 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,320 identify with The thing is if is, if is, if I tell them that 706 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,040 they must do it. So they're going to choose what 707 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,320 they do anyway. But I can say what it's like for 708 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,960 me. I can say what I can, I can 709 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,160 share my perspective and I can share what's and that and, and I 710 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,880 can tell them that I believe in them because I do believe in 711 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,600 them. And I can tell them, I can tell 712 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,760 us that we are the perfect people for this moment in the 713 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,880 world because we are the people who are in this moment in the 714 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,120 world. And I can feel a joy doing that. 715 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,200 But the joy is the fundamental ingredient, you know? 716 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,920 And I'm doing it because I feel that joy. 717 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,800 And but if they want that, they will take it. 718 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,160 And the meaning of that will belong to them, of what they go 719 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,360 on to do will be their own. But I, I can love. 720 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,240 I can enjoy this love for its own reason. 721 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,840 Well, one thing that that you have said and when I wrote it 722 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:52,760 down Alabaster that moved me was when you play a performance, you 723 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,200 look out at the audience and remember that you love them. 724 00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:01,160 What I like about that is the word remember that it exists. 725 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,880 The love exists. You're not, you're not 726 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,720 cultivating it or or demanding that it arise. 727 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,120 It's in you. And I guess that's another thing 728 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,080 that connects me kind of. Yeah, to you, your music and 729 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,880 Carlos's music. I feel that you are remembering 730 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,320 a kind of integrity or connection within yourself that 731 00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:26,440 almost precedes the the act of creation. 732 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:31,040 Or I don't know, that seems a little cosmic or whatever, but. 733 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,120 I'm into a lot cosmic not. I really deal with and that's 734 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,680 what I love about you, cosmic. Yeah, in in addition to 735 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,520 remember, which I also feel in Alabaster's words that you said, 736 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,960 for me it's just living. Like people keep asking me 737 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,360 questions and I'm like, it's just life. 738 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,840 Like we could talk about it could go in a lot of different 739 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,320 directions, kind of figure some things out for now. 740 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:04,800 And we keep going and might have some new words, new insights, 741 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,560 new ways of expressing ourselves. 742 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,080 I got to a point with like groups, like when I'm calling 743 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,480 people, I don't call them based on what they play anymore. 744 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,400 I call them based on my feeling about their energy. 745 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,280 And I and people say to me, like, what do you want me to 746 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,560 bring? Like bring whatever you want. 747 00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,360 Like I really like it got to a place where I'm like, this is 748 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,800 not about music for me. This is not about like a 749 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,160 performance. Those are, those are aspects. 750 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,360 Those are things that are happening, but they're not the 751 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,280 main thing that's happening to me at all. 752 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,080 And it's fun 'cause it's like, if you'd come yesterday and you 753 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,080 were like, I'm not singing. I'm, I'm going to just, I'm 754 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,640 going to just sit here like that. 755 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,480 It would have been all good. I swear. 756 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,120 Like, and I want to make my environment so like inviting and 757 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:51,720 welcoming where people feel that. 758 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,800 And, and that's kind of, you know, I mean, there maybe maybe 759 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,440 it's a little bit more contained than that, but not much, you 760 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,920 know, somebody came and was like, I don't know, just acting 761 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,440 out in a way. I, I, I might be like, hey, you 762 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,160 know, go have a time out or something. 763 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,600 But other than that, it's just like pretty much like I, I 764 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,040 invited you here because of you and what I'm feeling from you 765 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,960 psychically, but I'm getting a sense of like how you know we 766 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,760 can create something together. You know this. 767 00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,320 And sometimes we put our banded fields, you know, we like put 768 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,800 our role in front of us to hide ourselves. 769 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,000 Yeah. And sometimes because I've got a 770 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,680 task, you know, I'll do my task so that I don't need to be there 771 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:45,360 or almost to exclude ourselves. We'll go like, I'm going to, I'm 772 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,040 going to be excluded here. And we'll put my task in front. 773 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,640 Oh, no, you don't want me. You don't want me. 774 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,640 And it's like, almost like because we're, because we've 775 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,800 rejected ourselves. We used to run this show at the 776 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,440 TRC. And it's how I develop this way 777 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,240 of making the music. It was every month I would play, 778 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:06,840 make a different band. And I found that it's quite 779 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,600 tricky because the more inclusive you make a project, 780 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,600 the more risky it is in a way. Because if you've got something 781 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,400 that's extremely that really everyone there is really into, 782 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,240 they all feel, yes, I am this thing, I am a part of this 783 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:29,960 thing, I am this community. If you miss one person, then 784 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,680 they are in big trouble, you know, they are having a horrible 785 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,520 time. Whereas if you make just 786 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,320 something, you know, doesn't matter if, yeah, I guess I'm 787 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,760 here, it's OK. And no, no one's particularly 788 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,840 bothered about it. No, it's just a fun thing. 789 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,400 I guess it was fun. Can't remember. 790 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,960 What's it called? If you miss someone there, 791 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:56,200 you're OK. But then sometimes we human 792 00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:01,480 beings, we go to things wanting to be excluded. 793 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:06,000 Actually, if we go to things with a bitterness we've kept 794 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:13,160 from some painful experience, seeking to embody our 795 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,800 excludedness, we will go to the thing and say this is not, you 796 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,720 know, I've done it myself, I'm sure. 797 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,640 And and so caring for those people that including them 798 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,320 because it will only ever be their own choice. 799 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,600 Community is made of people choosing. 800 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,880 I got the heat last year. I mean, we did 150 concerts with 801 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:42,840 the Andre 3000 New Blue Sun Tour and I was inviting so many 802 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:48,560 people to be a part of it and everybody that I couldn't get or 803 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,760 I couldn't invite or that I specifically didn't invite And 804 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,280 and I was just like. Oh my God. 805 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,480 Figuring out also how to like manage that within myself, 806 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:01,880 'cause I care about everybody's feelings, but also like I what I 807 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:06,840 did pull off what, what, what he did agree to was like fucking so 808 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,000 wild, so courageous. I was like, damn, you know, like 809 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,400 I made this list at the end of the year of like everybody that 810 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,560 we were able to include. And, and like that he would even 811 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,840 do that and he like, I would ask him, he's like, you know, I've 812 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,520 never met Genhavia, but he, if you say, so let's do it. 813 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,080 And then, then, then he saw her here and he's like, when is she 814 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,880 playing with us? And I was like, I know, like, 815 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,360 let's see where we can cross paths or whatever. 816 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,800 And, but, but the amount of people that hit me up like that 817 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,960 were hurt 'cause they only got to play once. 818 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,360 And I, and I, and I'm just like, I'm just like, yeah, you know, 819 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,240 this, this happens too. It's one of the reasons why 820 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,360 sometimes people are really tight with their, with their 821 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,680 thing. But like in regard to community 822 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,080 for me, I'm kind of like, yeah, I'll take the heat. 823 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,800 I'm like a big bearish, you know, a lot of hair. 824 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,480 I don't know, like I, I kind of, I'm like, I'm like, it's cool. 825 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,520 I'll have that extra conversation. 826 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,520 I can, I can have an e-mail with you. 827 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,320 I can have an actual conversation with you about how 828 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,480 it didn't work out or why, you know. 829 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:17,760 And so so I think sometimes too in these roles, we decide like 830 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,520 how much we're going to take on like you just just imagining 831 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,600 like hearing you and and thinking that yesterday you 832 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:31,360 played three concerts and that you gave what I know you give, 833 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,960 you know, and opened up in the way that I know you opened up is 834 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:45,080 like, whoa, I'm like, whoa, OK. That's it. 835 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,680 The thing that is really coming to mind is that well, one thing 836 00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:55,280 to be completely honest, like I come from a world where we have 837 00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,880 7 days of continuous performance. 838 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,400 So the fact that I was tired by the third only tells me that 839 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,640 I've started to think more about myself because when I was 840 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,920 younger, we could do 7 days and I I was never tired. 841 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,120 I think part of the exhaustion is coming from this presumption 842 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,800 that I I'm putting anything together. 843 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,960 I am doing anything the basis of the language I grew up speaking, 844 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,360 which is Thummer. Someone came up to me yesterday 845 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,280 and spoke to me in Thummer. I don't know if if said person 846 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,800 is here, which was I was very grateful for, but this is not 847 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,040 the case only with my language, but it's the case perhaps with 848 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,320 many of your languages as well. But all the vowels are called 849 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,800 weirder to weirder. The thing I spoke of before, 850 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,120 which is life force. All the vowels are known as that 851 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,440 which carries the life force. All the consonances are known as 852 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,520 mayor, the OR the body. And our understanding is that we 853 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,720 are here as physical forms to learn how to become. 854 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:01,680 I'm I'm translating this too quickly, but we are here to 855 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,760 learn how to become that which marries the life force that 856 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,520 needs to be born in any given moment. 857 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,800 We are not meant to know what principles were meant to birth. 858 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,880 We, we're not putting anything together. 859 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:20,520 If you are meant to show up to a ritual, it's, it's not even, 860 00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,000 it's not in our grammar to even think, oh, why didn't they 861 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,880 select me to do this? You just show up and do your 862 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,320 thing. And I think part of the 863 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:33,840 difficulty that feels very tender is that when we are 864 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,760 forging our new paths, we are creating new grammars, which 865 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,520 means we are creating new worlds and new structures. 866 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,120 And then suddenly we feel like we're the ones creating. 867 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,400 And maybe we forget that we're just the mayor through 868 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,360 witnessing. We're speak through us because 869 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,320 then there's enough responsibility to place blame. 870 00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:05,520 But you know, I, I, the 1st 20 years of my life, I don't 871 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,880 remember there being a lot of talk about anyone feeling 872 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,880 included or excluded because it feels like, you know, you 873 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,880 inherited a kind of way and then you're faring that kind of way 874 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:18,760 to the future. And of course there's 875 00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,520 complications and pains with that as well. 876 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:27,160 But I think sometimes it's just a question of looking at all the 877 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,960 forms that we have access to, both the things from the past, 878 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,880 the ones that were all birthing, the ones that we can kind of see 879 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,400 coming in the future. It's through our younger 880 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,040 colleagues. Speaking of weeds, I remember 881 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,400 some of my most profound memories are gardening with my, 882 00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,520 with my teachers, actually, including Esperanza, though 883 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,280 she'd probably laugh if she knew I was calling her a teacher, 884 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,160 which to me is also why she's a really good teacher. 885 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,880 You know, humility. But there's this one moment when 886 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,840 we were sitting together studying, trying to witness what 887 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,880 was going to be born for Iphigenia, which was Elder Wayne 888 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:11,160 Shorter's opera. And someone was basically 889 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,240 telling us that there are these plants that are growing through 890 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,800 the cracks and concrete in New York that are the exact kinds of 891 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,840 plants that you would take to make teas to calm your nervous 892 00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,520 system. As if the earth was trying to 893 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:27,680 speak back to us, to say, I am birthing form for you. 894 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,680 But everyone thought it was weeds and kept like, you know, 895 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,240 pouring poison or pesticide or whatever over it. 896 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,480 And I feel like that's what I meant earlier by saying that I 897 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,080 don't, I don't necessarily feel like my life force is low. 898 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,600 I feel like it is immense and regenerative, but it becomes low 899 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,280 when I think about myself. It becomes low, but it is 900 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,920 infinite when I am not answering to anyone or for anything. 901 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,440 My grandmother, which I've, you know, I've, I, she, she would 902 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,160 have turned 100 this year, but she taught so many people. 903 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,760 And I used to be so angry at her when I was young because folks 904 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,800 who were not the kindest and she knew would come to her and they 905 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,840 would be, she would be so kind to them, so kind to them. 906 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:18,200 And I used to think she was weak. 907 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,200 I used to think that she was so weak. 908 01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,200 And I told her so because I was 13. 909 01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,640 And she used to keep saying the same thing, which years later I 910 01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,160 would read in the Vimala Kirti Sutra with Peter and just 911 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:35,160 breakdown, which is this idea that I have a limited life. 912 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,320 And I accept that in my condition as a mayor, that which 913 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:44,160 is physical here and it is meant to perish, that in my 914 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:49,320 limitedness, I will spend what little I have here towards the 915 01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,840 principle of love, you know? And as as you said, sometimes 916 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,280 that means embodying like I meant to birth something that is 917 01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,480 in counterbalance. It's not always about inclusion. 918 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,360 It's not always about. But all I mean is that the logic 919 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,840 of what we're meant to birth is so much greater than any grammar 920 01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:09,040 that I can contain or rationalize or understand 921 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:11,640 because it's true. If I put my human mind to it, I 922 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,880 can't always know what's a weed and I can't always know what's a 923 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,160 plant. Yeah. 924 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:22,200 I mean, that's the saving grace of of also having teachers by 925 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,160 our side. To be honest, I was hesitant 926 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,840 even to come, I think, to the panel because it feels like the 927 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:32,280 world is so full of language. And I am a person who was raised 928 01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,880 in seven day performances. I don't know, succinctness, but 929 01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,840 I was not raised to value it. So I did not think that I was an 930 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,360 appropriate person to come to a panel because I can't think in 931 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,920 quick terms like that. But I also understood. 932 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,120 I didn't mean to keep talking about Esperanza today, by the 933 01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:51,360 way. I just, I, I, I saw her 934 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,520 yesterday after a while and apparently I miss her a lot. 935 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,160 And I it's easier to express gratitude to you than to 936 01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,280 actually tell her. But one of the last things I'll 937 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,240 tell you is that I remember telling her about how I wish 938 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,200 that I could not consume anything and become a thing that 939 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:12,680 was just completely quiet and didn't want to ask for anything 940 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,120 from anyone. And she just laughed. 941 01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,440 And she's like, that's really dramatic and unnecessary. 942 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,640 We're here to be part of the network. 943 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,960 She's like, imagine a mother who's just given birth. 944 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,680 If the child doesn't pull the milk out of her body, she'll be 945 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,000 in pain. If you're meant to do this and 946 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,560 you came here, as you said, if we came here with a contract to 947 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:34,120 do something, you have to do it or you'll die because then your 948 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:35,680 body will start revolting and there. 949 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,680 Is an aspect of like receiving isn't there where where more 950 01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,160 things occur quicker when I've been learning to receive 951 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:46,280 recently the the pleasant things and the the the distressing 952 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,640 things receiving Well, thank you, Hello, hello thing that has 953 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:54,480 come and yes, I receive you and it can be really scary, but it 954 01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,040 means that more things move quicker. 955 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,800 And he, he reminded me of this feeling that, you know, the song 956 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:05,000 wants to come through. Get out of the way of the song 957 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:09,800 or everyone's looking at me and listening to me. 958 01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,600 It must be about me. No, it's not about me being good 959 01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:19,920 or bad at the thing. The song wants to come through 960 01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,400 anyway. The the thing that the song is 961 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,560 about will be true. Whatever we do or don't do here, 962 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,960 let the song get out of the way of the song. 963 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:33,440 The great thing wants to happen. Let us allow it to happen. 964 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:38,360 The community wishes to be. Let us work to work. 965 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:48,600 Let us do things and allow the community to to be that chooses 966 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,200 its own moment. Yeah, this is this is rad. 967 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,600 I'm I'm really enjoying this. I'm excited to get out into the 968 01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:59,760 daylight too. But weeds I had a great teacher. 969 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,960 I used to have like this real strong word like it's not, it's 970 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,040 not a weed, you know, it's herb. You know, I, I, I, I was like 971 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,600 rebelling against this word weed. 972 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:14,680 And I just want to say like when I was taught not to look at 973 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:21,680 weeds, even or that word in a derogatory like weeds, our 974 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:26,480 plants, however you want to call them, they're exalted. 975 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,640 They are exactly what they all have a purpose. 976 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:35,440 You might not want them in your manicured garden or lawn, but 977 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,760 you're you're missing out. Like, like, like the true 978 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:44,000 masters know it, every single thing that's growing does. 979 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,120 And, and they don't know everything about everything, but 980 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,080 they know a lot about a lot. And, and I was with this, yeah, 981 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:54,680 with my guy Luis and, and he was just like that does this that 982 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,240 does like, oh, I love that one right there. 983 01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:00,080 These are all things that people chop up and throw away all day 984 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,080 'cause they don't know better. And that brings me back to 985 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,600 language, though, which is that even the connotation of this 986 01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,560 word, weed. What if we thought of weeds the 987 01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:13,080 way we think of flowers? What we think of, as, you know, 988 01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:17,440 a classification of plants as somehow being lesser is not 989 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,280 lesser at all. In fact, it's like, like magic, 990 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,320 like just totally a magical expression of the earth. 991 01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,160 That's an exciting way to kind of think about also like, what 992 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,320 music could be or what community could be or what these words 993 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,760 could be. Not necessarily what they are 994 01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,320 all the time. But anyway, yeah, I don't know. 995 01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,680 I think that's a beautiful way to say thank you to all of you 996 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,480 for this conversation. Yeah, and thank you. 997 01:06:00,410 --> 01:06:04,210 Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big 998 01:06:04,210 --> 01:06:07,290 Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. 999 01:06:07,810 --> 01:06:09,850 The show is produced by Matt Marowitz. 1000 01:06:10,330 --> 01:06:14,050 This episode was edited by Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder. 1001 01:06:14,170 --> 01:06:17,730 Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big 1002 01:06:17,730 --> 01:06:21,080 Ears. Big Ears 2026 will take place 1003 01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:25,760 March 26 through 292026 in Knoxville, TN. 1004 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,960 For more information and festival updates, visit 1005 01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:33,440 bigearsfestival.org. Thanks for listening and until 1006 01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,760 next time, keep those ears wide open.