Welcome to Big Ears Conversations About Music, a
podcast from Big Ears Festival. Each episode brings listeners
into dialogue with artists shaping the sounds of today.
From deep listening to radical experimentation, these are the
stories, sounds, and ideas animating our global music
ecosystem. I am Sarah Gilletti.
We're glad you're here today on the podcast, a deep and
searching live conversation from Big Ears 2025 between NPR music
critic and author Ann Powers and three remarkable artists whose
practices reach far beyond the boundaries of genre.
Vocalist, double bassist and composer Ganavia, Multi
instrumentalist and scene connector Carlos Nino and
British poet, saxophonist in troubadour.
Alabaster de plume. In this wide-ranging interview,
they explore themes of interdependence, the evolving
meaning of community and the porous line between art and
everyday life. Have a listen.
Little one. I am so grateful for you to be
here. You're all having
extraordinarily busy festivals, making community even as we
speak. I don't know how many of you got
to see these wonderful performers in many different
contexts and incarnations. Carlos has been hosting a salon
every night. Yeah.
Last night and tonight, yeah. Thank you.
And you also played with Carlos and friends.
Yes, Thursday night, yeah. And then we have a concert
tomorrow morning as well, and we're here and yeah, stoked.
And and Ganavia's, if you saw Emmanuel Wilkins amazing Blues
blood performance yesterday, Ganavia was a featured singer.
You also sang with Carlos last night.
Yeah. Yesterday was Esperanza with
Carlos and with Emmanuel and the day before I guess I think was
it the day before? Sorry, I'm looking to my
husband. His sense of time is so much
better than mine was with Elder Charles Lloyd and and Bill
Frisell. Harry.
Shot Oh my God, I missed these things.
For the Zakir Hussein tribute and today is I'm sorry, I'm I'm
not actually trying to convince you to come to any of this.
This was my way of trying to remember to today is 5:00 PM.
I'm looking at him again, is my yeah.
And then tomorrow is sleep. And Alabaster performed your set
at AMIL mine yesterday and you just performed as well.
I did a secret thing. Don't tell anyone about that
though. Do you have anything else?
Happened. I don't know about it myself,
I'm completely confused. Well, you know, now that now you
recognize them, you can find them where they will, where they
will be. So as I said, this is the
moment, such a crucial moment for us to talk about community.
That word can be meaningful or meaningless.
It's one of those words that's thrown around sometimes as a
brand or as a marketing term or something.
But yeah, these artists truly center their work on building
community. And my first question is like a
chicken and egg question, which is maybe unanswerable, Which is
for you, which came first, the desire to make music or the
desire to be in community with others?
Or is that even distinguishable? Earlier, you very lovingly told
us that you would give us containers and questions, but
that you had an ATV that we could go off the path.
I was raised in a tradition called the Vadakari Sampradaya,
which literally means the tradition of those who go on the
path. And it's a pilgrimage tradition
where we sing songs and we walk for days towards the temple.
And the nature of the music is different from what my family
traditionally practiced, which is Carnatic music, which is
classical music. And even Carnatic music is a
little bit of a essentialist project that was born from a
hurting people who wanted to prove that they too had a kind
of systemized, but really Carnatic music.
And I think all music is just folk music that has kind of been
formalized. But the thing about Carnatic
music in my limited experience of life is it's closer to
priesthood in the sense that you're supposed to somehow
perform a kind of virtuosity and be so special that people can
project upon you approaching with your virtuosity and command
of language a closeness with God, whatever God is.
And it's created. I, I, I feel so much tenderness
towards so many of my cousins who have, who have chosen that
way of life because for any of us who have pride, for any of us
who have, we just want to be loved.
We're all just kids. And if, maybe if we play at the
right venues and if we're seen at the right people.
And if I don't, I, I, I know so many elders who I think are as
close to enlightenment as possible.
And still they're still, you can still in moments see the child
and them being like, am I loved? And I think any kind of music
where we have to prove our worth through our virtuosity is meant
for maybe a stronger heart than mine.
The Vadakari Sam Pradaya on the other end was music that was
about singing together, because that's the only way you can
survive walking in the desert for days.
And the songs are called abhangs, which means songs
without ends. And you can string the poems on.
Even with Carlos yesterday, those are the songs that came
out of me in my most comfortable moments.
Those are the songs that come out.
They have a steady rhythm. They just help you walk.
And music in that moment is about the important thing is to
create a form that everyone can witness together.
It is not about creating a form that someone can witness you
performing. And so in a literal way, to talk
about your ATV, to talk about paths, about the way I was
trained, My heart wasn't meant for that other kind of prayer,
which is almost obsessive virtuosity.
But my life has been saved by people giving me a place to show
up the next day and sing. And so, yeah, I mean, I also
think that I think it was Gwdada who said a very long time ago,
oh, sorry. It's it sounds more violent now
that if I say it, when Gwdada say it, it, it doesn't sound
violent. But Gwdada said he wishes that
people would like, beat the word improvisation to death.
And I, I, I can, I can understand semantic saturation.
And I wonder if that happens with the word community as well.
I just mean to say I don't know shit.
But but whatever that has meant to me, they every single person
who has sung with me and asks me to sing is saving my life.
Yeah. Would either of you like to
respond? I'll I'll respond to your
question. I love Ganavia, so just grateful
to be here. But for me it's like, what are
you here for? I don't I don't think about it
as music. I don't think about it as
building community. It's like I see us here because
we wanted to have a very specific, in a lot of ways are
lucky to be having a very specific experience on the earth
together. That doesn't mean we do
everything together, doesn't mean we agree, but we're here
together and we're not just here together with humans.
We're here together with this magical planet, which is in the
community of planets. We're we're here, but in a very
physical togetherness kind of way like that is happening.
So for me, it's like, what do you feel?
How, what are you inspired to do?
What do you, what can you do? What do you have access to do?
What are you going to create access to do?
And I think with us here on this, in this panel, if we're
called a panel in this gathering, it's definitely
related to sound and it's definitely related to word and
this feeling, this vibration. So for me, that's kind of the
big question is like, what are you here to do?
You know why? Why do you feel like you're
here? That's sort of at the, at the
root of all of it for me. So like, yeah, I, I care about
others because I feel like I chose to be here with others,
not to not be here. I could be somewhere else.
So and. You're talking in a profound way
about choose to be here. You mean on Earth in the as
being in the body you're in? 100%, yeah, Yeah.
And I feel like that's something that we all have and it's, it's
amazing, but it's also challenging.
And so, you know, we're, we're dancing through it as well as we
can, helping others with their steps, with their experiences.
But yeah, that's that's how I see it.
Beautiful. How has it evolved for you,
Alabaster? How has what evolved?
Your exactly music making process coming out of and
connected to community making or connecting with others.
I don't know if I would say that I'm really creating community.
Well, I, I, I'm cautious too. I think what I'm working on
makes connection between people. But those people will go on to
make community. It's theirs.
Does that make sense? I do a lot of travelling, but
although I I am connected to some communities and it is their
demand that I should be myself makes me myself.
And the the the challenge of the artists I'm connected to by the
way that they are. And the people that I'm
connected to are sister or otherwise and my friends in
London or in Palestine. And they the, the, the depth of
their dignity demands of me my depth of dignity.
But the in terms of the work, like the actual my tunes or
whatever, and the way I am on the stage, am I creating
community in this work? I don't know.
But I'm working on connection on I'm working on igniting us to
connect with one another. And if we where we go on to
connect with one another, the connections we create and
community we create is is belongs to those people who have
chosen to do that thing. And a community is a it is not
just a connection between people.
It's it's got, it's got or it's got organs, hasn't it?
It's like takes real building. There's a like a real, like a
community. And I don't know how exactly I
would define the word community, but I am flying around a lot in
this world and going and doing my RT shit.
Can I say yes, I am building community when there are, you
know, like, really there's the real gritty work of creating
community that like, you know, anarchists and communists are
working on like in deep ways. I don't know.
But I'm a vague hunter. I'm a vague Pisces.
I, I mean, I love how we're starting this conversation by
questioning the very terms that that we're conversing about.
And I think that's really important.
And, and, and you sort of raised this right now because you've
often said, and you said it just now, the word music itself, you
feel can be limiting, like making a distinction and also
gonna be, I think about your tradition that you came from
the, the training you had. I mean, how rigorous or how
rigid are the boundaries around what music is versus, I don't
know, speech acts, prayer, intimate conversations, talking
to yourself, all the other forms of, of making sound and
connecting with people. Like how has the narrowing of
the definition of music even? I'm getting very like heady
already, but but how does that definition limit us and how can
we expand it? I mean, sorry, they told me I
was supposed to take this off. I was trying to be lazy.
It was not working out. I was trying to be lazy.
Tell me one thing music did to me after too much heavy metal in
my youth is I'm not very good at hearing so I appreciate you guys
speaking up. No, my mom and dad, my mom and
dad come on tour with me these days because I had a little bit
of an injury when I was on tour. Hey Shahzad, how you doing?
We all love this dear brother right here.
Yes. I think we conjured his
presence. My mom and dad come on tour with
me these days because I had somewhat of an injury five years
ago in in when I was on tour. The kind that is horrific to
admit to a parent. And the only way I can show them
that it's unsafe, that it's safe and, well, it's sometimes
unsafe, but that it's mostly safe and beautiful, is by
bringing them on tour with me and.
Yeah, there's nothing like it. Yeah, and then they get to see
this. Last week they were with me and
with Felix, so I keep looking to over there, but they were with
us in Australia, which is the farthest they've come on tour.
Shahzad that knows my parents very well because I keep asking
my friends to play with them. The reason why I'm, I think I'm
thinking about this right now is twofold. 1 My mother's only
request to me is please pick up the microphone and stop mumbling
when you're speaking. So in honour of Vidya Dari
Swami, I picked up the microphone.
Thank you. The second reason is that my
mother, My name Ganavya means some of you probably know this.
My name Ganavya means one who was born to spread music.
So she, and it's fine. If you call me Ganavia, then it
means one who was born to spread weight, which is fine.
I, I love cooking. So my mom, I think my mom really
wanted to be a musician, but you know, my dad was like the fifth
of nine children. My mom was the 9:50, I think,
and she met, she could memorize everything and play it
perfectly. So if she had been born, I think
in a, in a music system where that was beautiful, she would
have done so well. Like my understanding of Western
classical music, my mom would have been perfect for it.
But in Indian music or what's roughly known as South Asian
music, Manod Dharmam, which is the law of heart, which is
improvisation, was not something that my mom was able to find
easily, which meant she could have no real music career in in
India. She played the Vinay and she can
still play the pieces that she learnt when she was child
perfectly on the Vinay. She's memorized them.
But the ATV was not to be found in her mind.
And because of that, she couldn't really live life as a
musician. So sometimes I feel like
whatever is happening in my life is to carry.
Yeah, you guys know what I'm talking about.
Anyway, the point is my father was the son of my grandmother
who is a well known musician named Sita Duriswami.
But because of how history would turn out, my father's generation
was the kind of generation where the patronage system kind of
fell apart in India, which meant the musicians grew up in extreme
poverty while we were finding our likes back as a family.
And so my grandmother taught a lot of people music, but she
could not teach her kids, which meant my father learnt a lot by
osmosis but has a beautiful voice but also couldn't practice
music professionally. And I think the first time was
four years ago when I asked them to come on stage and sing with
me and they were terrified and horrified and they thought what
they make is not music and it should not and cannot be
allowed. Now they assume, they assume
that they will be on stage with me and they no longer have a
question of whether or not. So now they just come on and
they pray whatever they want to pray.
And my friends, including Shaza Desmili, who's sitting in the
2nd row, second from the center, everyone, my parents know what
the word crew list is. And to me, at that moment, music
or whatever it is, I mean, I feel like, you know, I don't
have anything profound to say on that front, is that the
formalization of what we think is legitimate form.
I understand it comes from it can come from a good place, more
often comes from a terrified place, but causes pain.
And more than anything, I just wonder what's going on in the
mind of that heart because I barely have enough weird, which
is a thermal word for life force to kind of carry through with
the tasks that have been put in front of me for me to handle.
I can't imagine what is going through someone's mind that they
have enough life force in them to be able to say I am an
authority on, on, on that, on that form.
So that was a very non useful ATV ramble.
But my parents, the the essence of that story is that my parents
now call them musician, call themselves musicians.
And it took three years. And maybe the last thing I'll
tell you is my grandmother had something called the kitchen
orchestra where in South India, maybe some of you know, I can
see some of your faces. If you're a Carnatic musician,
being a musician is akin to being.
A spiritual prophet almost. The better you are at music, the
better you're considered to be closer to God because the
understanding is that God has to bless you to understand, not
them or sound, which is dangerous because then very good
musicians can become abusive and no one wants to talk to them.
As some of you may know, paedophilia is very common in
Indian classical music for this reason, because they don't know
how to be human elsewhere, sexuality is condemned and then
their needs go on the most vulnerable of people.
And it's nobody knows how to talk about it, but it's very
common. So and also there's a habit of
humans marrying people. Humans who are good at music,
marrying people are not good at music, good at music because
then they can feel more special. So my grandmother had this thing
called the kitchen orchestra where people could come and make
instruments from whatever they could in the kitchen and then
they would go to whatever prestigious, lots of prestigious
venues she was given. God, she drove everyone crazy.
She would just bring everybody and they would just sing songs
and kitchen. So yeah, I've spoken enough on
the panel, but now you have my whole summary of what I think
about that. Thought's response?
To your, to your question, language is evolving.
So I don't feel beholden to any of these terms, any of these
labels. I think they're meant to evolve.
We're meant to poetically and otherwise look at them and
decide if they're right for us and not agree to anything in
regard to our language or these definitions.
And that's part of our life. Another thing is, and and I want
to say this in like the sweetest way, but like Gnavia, I feel
like the life force you're referring to is regenerative.
And I, for one, would like to be a friend to you, to offer you
and Felix and your family more life force because I love you
being here on the planet. And I want you to feel as much
energy flow, an abundant amount of ability to be yourself.
So that's my response. That's very beautiful.
There is an aspect of the bringing family into the touring
dynamic, I think. I feel like Shahzad is good at
that. I've got some other friends who
are who are good at that. There is a sometimes some of us
escape the fact that we could be musicians by believing that
musicians must always be in pain.
The artist must suffer so, and I didn't choose to suffer so or
the artist can't have a family. I have chosen this instead.
But of course you know to receive the fact that you could
have had a life of creating joyous art, but you have done
some shit job instead. The order to receive that is it
takes in immense grief and we we will escape grief above all else
sometimes. So it's a lot to ask someone to
see that. But perhaps there is an aspect
of like bringing family into like artistic, creative things
that can be a part of like this question of community.
And I'll be talking about wider community worldwide connections.
Like one of the main things I like doing about Palestine is to
personally be connected with human beings there because this
is a simple, it's not like an invented politics that I am
coming to. Oh, I've got my politics.
I must do to the world genuinely, authentically.
I have connections with in the West Bank and I love them.
I love those people. And when I go there as I'm just
a bloke, Yanni on just going to a place on holiday and seeing my
friends, it happens. That is occupied by brutal
imperialism. Are we talking about making
community around across different parts of the world,
across different ways of life? Shall I seek to involve in my
community some of the characters in of this part of the world?
Actually, specifically, especially perhaps in order to.
Because I believe your original thing is you'd like to oppose
the fascism. Yeah, that was the original
thing, wasn't it? Like we were like, you know,
there's fascism, we want to talk about community.
That was it. So and so do we do that by
connecting, by involving people who are local to situations that
parts of the world, political things that support the aura,
part of the the fascist project, the imperial projects bring them
into our community to include their humanity.
Because our position is, I believe that community embraces
the humanity. The fascism itself excludes it.
I guess that leads me to want to ask a question about how working
like the commodification of music and music as a product.
And you know, we live in late capitalism and release music
through the music industry or perhaps we release it in other
ways. And we are at a music festival
where we feel love and joy and also people have paid to be here
and performers are paid etcetera.
And I think there's always a fascinating tension between kind
of that aspect of music making, the professional side, as it
were, and the political, cultural, spiritual side.
And is it most useful to kind of let that tension dissolve in
your own mind, or how do you deal with that aspect of things?
Like, I guess the reason I thought of that after what
Alabaster was saying is that I think it's impossible to have a
conversation invoking the terms you invoked without also talking
about commerce and capitalism, which is doing so much to.
Why is that? Why?
Because because it is an engine through which these other.
Capitalism is, but doing business is separate to
capitalism. No talk.
To a little more about. That oh, I love this.
I love this. It like bless capitalism.
It likes to believe that it is all business.
Capitalism is a system whereby industry and trade are
controlled by private individuals for profit.
So there there was no capitalism before there was industry.
It's only a couple of 100 years old.
It's not a basic part of humanity.
It loves to. Of course, I forgot I'm in the
United States of America. And there was no capitalism
before there was imperialism and colonialism.
Well, yeah, it's, it's not a old thing.
We have always done business. We can do good business without
being an asshole. You have it like you don't have
to have. I'm going to sell T-shirts.
Does not make me a capitalist. If I'm like, oh, I'll give you
this thing and you know, I can borrow some of that.
It does not make me a capitalist.
That I can do. I can thrive without being a
fucking capitalist. And we can do this good business
that this does not make us capitalists.
I I, I would love that and I want and I'm going to believe.
That enjoy it, enjoy it, you are free.
I want to turn that question to you because.
It's, it's very complex. I think it's very multifaceted.
I wouldn't right really try to explain all of my feelings about
it right now. I will say that as we're
talking, I'm thinking about a love supreme or eternal now or
there's a riot going on or all the messages that do come
through that artists are people, their feelings, their thoughts,
their feelings, their their hearts are coming through.
And so I see a lot of these so-called industry realities as
like outlets, their means. They're not ideal, but I
wouldn't spend my time fighting against them as much as I would
be interested in continuing to share what I can now.
I do care very much about people being owned, enslaved,
monopolized, exploited. Those are all things that I will
actively concurrently stand up against and fight against and
make decisions to not participate in.
But you know, like I, I think about my footprint sometime I
like to get here, I had to fly on a plane and those planes I
don't agree with with, with the with that industry.
I don't agree with how I'm treated in an airport, but I had
to get here. Another thing would be like, if
I didn't do that and I drove here, how much more time does
that keep me away from my family?
And what resources does that take up?
So we're always making decisions that are kind of supporting and
in some ways in rebellion against industry.
And I think we need to make our best decisions.
You know, I can't decide that for you.
I wouldn't presume to, but there's there's a lot that we're
all dealing with with all of this and I and I think about all
of it as balanced as possible. And I think that to Gus's point,
to Alabaster's point, excuse me there, there is a, an
interesting, you know, way in which business can be done.
Like Ashley over there can speak more about how, you know, Bob
feel and impulse records really was to John Coltrane and Don
over there can talk a lot about the inner workings of the
industry as he runs Blue Note Records.
But it's it's like they're good people, you know, like, did did
all the artists that I love get treated well?
Did they ultimately get taken care of?
I would, I would say no, But also was there some good
business happening where there's some good intentions, where
they're like hugely inspirational and meaningful
projects that came to light and reach people all over the world?
And am I glad about that? Yeah, I'm glad about that.
You know, I don't think that that's because of the industry,
but it did involve the industry in that time in that way, and it
continues to. So do we have the ability to
affect that? Do we have the ability to change
that? Are we always thinking about
creative ways to connect outside of that?
Yeah, we have to. I mean, that's that's that's
like all of our elders, everybody that we all work with
will talk with us about that time.
They released the project independently, then decided to
start their own record label or join the collective that created
something outside of the industry and then also worked
with the industry, hopefully in this best business way to do
something else that was worthwhile.
And I think all of that applies. That's kind of what we're
dealing with. And I don't know the inner
workings of the industry in India, but Ganavia's point, can
can you say the name? Because because I know you and
I've worked with you and I love you.
I want to say your name, right? I want to say it forever.
Can can you can you Ganavia? Ganavia.
OK, great. So this industry of Indian
classical music, which is a gigantic industry, I mean, like
I have countless albums, you know, we're we're dealing with
this all over the world. These these are some of the same
things. Not not the same traditions
necessarily not the same cultures or same circumstances
always, of course not. But but like, still it's, it's,
it's happening. So, you know, like how do we
relate with it? How do we participate?
How do we protest? All of that is happening.
All of that is, is active all the time.
So, you know, I feel like, yeah, yeah, that's how I feel about
it. Yeah, no, that's very well said.
You know, in every in every garden where things are growing,
some things are designated weeds, some things change the
pattern, some things come up and form new, new patterns.
And within any system, even one that can be oppressive, can be
exploitative. There are are are things
happening that change the shape. And I think that's maybe maybe
that's what I feel like that's kind of what you're getting at.
Like move through. Don't think you can live in a
different kind of space entirely where we are in the world.
Move through as in move through what we'll.
Move through the system we live in and make your own.
Well, I don't know. I'm not going to tell anyone
else what to do, but I love to deny words like business to
those who wish to divide us. Words like work.
Work is supposed to. I'm supposed to think of work as
that shit thing I have to do to get money.
But I don't want to. Yanni.
But maybe it's easy for me to say, you know, I'm very lucky.
But I like seeing my work as my works on this earth.
That might influence as I have time, as I spend time on this
earth. The things I do, that's my work.
These words have different contexts and in, in an
interpretation also, and I think that's a really key thing is
like, and one of the things that was brought up about
improvisation is a big one too, because I used to love that word
and now I don't use that word, but I, I, I also feel like maybe
I'll use it again at some point and I feel like somebody might
use it. That I think is, wow, that's the
best use of that word I could imagine, right.
So these words are alive. They're not fixed.
They can't be anybody who tells you that they are doesn't, isn't
really alive in my opinion, that they don't really know what's
going on. Language is meant to evolve.
It is evolving whether we want it to or not also.
So that's exciting. Cause work.
Yeah, I think about like work. I think about like so many
different ways that I've heard the, the use of the word work.
And I'm like, there's a version of the word work where I'm like,
I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm fighting that.
And then there's another version and many others where I'm like,
think about people who use the word in regard to like dancing,
like, like work, like let's work, you know, I'm like, hell
yeah. Like, yeah, you know, or, or
your life's work in this, in this tone, in this context, or
like, you know, or like I'm working to, you know, you know,
it's all context and interpretation.
Does that work for? You.
We're getting to some specifics about like different places that
raised all y'all we you know, thank you Ganavia for talking
about your roots and the system in which you came up and the
family in which you came up. I know, Alistair.
Sorry, Alabaster, you're the total Refreshment center was a
very important space for you and and and for you Carlos, the
Bodhi Tree Bookstore, Aaron's Records.
The world stage. Yeah, these different informal
spaces that again getting back to the question about commerce
and its place like these are places of supposed commerce that
also were nurturing in family spaces.
So I wonder if we can talk a little bit about how, and maybe
for you this has been, you've discovered spaces like that too,
spaces where community and connection forms informally and
grows and and remains. What's that space?
I've seen you sing a name, Are you?
The Chapel. Yeah.
Four years ago, Esperanza found at the height of the pandemic,
she went to a place that's about two hours away from Portland,
OR. And I went there to visit her,
but then got into a little bit of a foot accident and ended up
accidentally moving there because I couldn't walk.
And that's a great. Title for.
Somebody. Yeah, Accidental.
I did, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did there.
And at that time I was working with a lovely human named Peter
Sellers with an A not the actor he's known for having vertical
hair. I was with another Peter the
other day, Peter Gabriel. And I was like Peter Sellers and
he goes the actor or the vertical hair, vertical hair.
Peter Sellers and I were studying something called the
Femaliketi Sutra, which is the Buddhist text.
And at the time I was learning how to make into song chapter 2,
which is called the body. Speaking of commerce, it says
this body is owner less like the earth, selfless like water, like
fire. This body has no body,
impersonal like wind, ego less like space.
So it's it's just this whole beautiful essay on ownership or
lack of ownership. So I was out there learning how
to sing this whole scripture, speaking also of commerce.
We recorded it in Van Gelder and nobody has heard it, and I don't
know that anyone will. It's an unreleased album that'll
probably sit there forever, which I'm OK with because I
think that's part of The thing is like, allow just doing the
thing for the sake of wanting to do the thing because it makes
you a better something and. It knows as.
Well, and then you don't need to.
You don't need to be so pressed with whether or not it's seen by
other people. It's like, it's not like, I
mean, I'm, I'm not a mother yet of a human, but I hope my love
for my child is not dependent on how many people praise the
child. So which is neither here nor
there. But I was working on on this
with Peter and because I could not walk, I think it's moments
of injury that truly shows me the way of love.
Because like, you know, you can't take a shit without help.
You have necrosis eating away at your foot and you just have to
remember how much you cannot do anything by yourself.
And then someone is there helping you walk and feeding
you. And she taught me how to walk.
And feels almost too personal to say this out loud, but it's
true. And so she, she was living in a
cabin and there was a Chapel and we ended up renting the Chapel
and because I couldn't walk, I, I lived in the Chapel.
And, and there's an elder Malido Massoume, who has since
transitioned. But Esperanza had a theory that
maybe the necrosis that was developing was greater than just
a physical thing, that maybe there is a part of me that
something past this light, past this observable life was.
So she took me to a series of elders who then took me to a
series of elders, and they all diagnosed me with the same
issue, which I feel like it's probably more than you bargained
for, so I won't get into it. But one of the things he said is
that you're going to pick up a, a wooden wand of sorts.
It's going to help you walk. Of course, I, I hadn't told him
anything. And it was on October 18th that
Esperanza. So she left me her base.
And I am a vocalist. So I don't know how to explain
this to y'all, but my, since my instrument is inside myself, I
did not understand at the time that like your whole life can
live in your instrument because you know, it's like a Speaking
of community. It's like you're in community
with these beautiful objects. And I didn't, I didn't
understand that. So like I didn't understand what
a gift it was that she just left her base with me and I was just
there detuning it and dancing and doing, laying it on the
side, doing whatever I wanted to, which is something I think
Shazad is also like is, is a she chose a preciousness of human
over the object. But I, yes, I started playing it
like a child plays the bass. It wasn't until I was calling
all my friends all the time, and I called Alfredo Rodriguez,
who's a piano player. And then he was like, is that
Esperanza's bass? And I was like, yeah.
And he was like, you should not be detuning it like that.
He's like such a vocalist girl. I know.
And then I and then I called her immediately panicking because,
like, I can't walk the 10 minutes.
And I was like, I'm so sorry. And she said something really
beautiful, which was it's OK, you can, you can do whatever you
want to do. Just don't let go of it so much
that the sound post goes away. And to me, that is also a
community is, is the Vimla Kirti Sutra says love is not the tight
fist of a bad teacher. And I don't want to tighten my
grasp on you because I don't want to be alone so much that it
feels like at any moment the neck of the instrument could
snap. But I also want it to be loose
enough that not so loose that the sound Post Falls off, you
know what I mean? But to very longly answer the
question, that's how I found myself in that Chapel with the
bass that that that changed my life.
But you know, even even daughter of a temple that was recorded, I
have no idea where the 90K or 100K came from.
It just every single time something needed to happen, a
series of miracles happened. You know, so I feel like the
only real non renewable currency is probably time.
But the only real currency is love.
And I am I have no idea. I'm so I'm I'm I don't know what
the word I'm I, I know truly nothing of how everything works
out, but it keeps working out and I can promise you it has
nothing to do with the with money on my so I I agree with
with that marketplace. The different marketplace is the
one that's kept me alive, you know?
Yeah, the money just makes it possible, isn't it?
Like somebody wanted to book me for something once and she's
like, I'll make sure there's enough money to make it worth
your while. And I'm like, yeah, the money,
it's not going to make it worthwhile.
The people make it worthwhile. The music makes it worthwhile.
The money just makes it possible.
I think the question I had for you was how did you said earlier
that when you thought about this panel that you knew that you
wanted the three of us? But why?
Because for me, each of you represents an approach to music
making that creates a space or represents a space that is
unique and, and that provides a model, different kinds of
models. That's sort of my motivation,
that daughter of a temple, especially for me and your
things you've said like like washing the feet of your
companions and your even your audience members that and and
your music that there is a way in which it's not just that it's
inviting, it's that there's there's an yeah, it just is
building something that is. There's an agitation as well.
Yes, it's, it's, it's warm and sweet, but it, it is an
agitation because we've got work to do.
I think we don't. We have work to do and we're
going to need, we're going to need each other for it.
But not that work that that. Yeah, we got.
We got this other work. And I, I think it's pretty clear
how what you've done, Carlos, creates these different kinds of
environments where the work we need to do can arise, you know,
and it just seems gonna be like such an important moment to
gather people together to share models, share ideas and.
But the things they're really going to do, if they are going
to do something, is going to be their idea.
I'm a very stubborn human being. And if you want to make sure I
don't do something, tell me to do it.
And that's how I treat everyone else as well.
You know, if, if, if anyone is going to really do something,
they have to come up with it themselves.
The one way to make it impossible for someone to
identify with The thing is if is, if is, if I tell them that
they must do it. So they're going to choose what
they do anyway. But I can say what it's like for
me. I can say what I can, I can
share my perspective and I can share what's and that and, and I
can tell them that I believe in them because I do believe in
them. And I can tell them, I can tell
us that we are the perfect people for this moment in the
world because we are the people who are in this moment in the
world. And I can feel a joy doing that.
But the joy is the fundamental ingredient, you know?
And I'm doing it because I feel that joy.
And but if they want that, they will take it.
And the meaning of that will belong to them, of what they go
on to do will be their own. But I, I can love.
I can enjoy this love for its own reason.
Well, one thing that that you have said and when I wrote it
down Alabaster that moved me was when you play a performance, you
look out at the audience and remember that you love them.
What I like about that is the word remember that it exists.
The love exists. You're not, you're not
cultivating it or or demanding that it arise.
It's in you. And I guess that's another thing
that connects me kind of. Yeah, to you, your music and
Carlos's music. I feel that you are remembering
a kind of integrity or connection within yourself that
almost precedes the the act of creation.
Or I don't know, that seems a little cosmic or whatever, but.
I'm into a lot cosmic not. I really deal with and that's
what I love about you, cosmic. Yeah, in in addition to
remember, which I also feel in Alabaster's words that you said,
for me it's just living. Like people keep asking me
questions and I'm like, it's just life.
Like we could talk about it could go in a lot of different
directions, kind of figure some things out for now.
And we keep going and might have some new words, new insights,
new ways of expressing ourselves.
I got to a point with like groups, like when I'm calling
people, I don't call them based on what they play anymore.
I call them based on my feeling about their energy.
And I and people say to me, like, what do you want me to
bring? Like bring whatever you want.
Like I really like it got to a place where I'm like, this is
not about music for me. This is not about like a
performance. Those are, those are aspects.
Those are things that are happening, but they're not the
main thing that's happening to me at all.
And it's fun 'cause it's like, if you'd come yesterday and you
were like, I'm not singing. I'm, I'm going to just, I'm
going to just sit here like that.
It would have been all good. I swear.
Like, and I want to make my environment so like inviting and
welcoming where people feel that.
And, and that's kind of, you know, I mean, there maybe maybe
it's a little bit more contained than that, but not much, you
know, somebody came and was like, I don't know, just acting
out in a way. I, I, I might be like, hey, you
know, go have a time out or something.
But other than that, it's just like pretty much like I, I
invited you here because of you and what I'm feeling from you
psychically, but I'm getting a sense of like how you know we
can create something together. You know this.
And sometimes we put our banded fields, you know, we like put
our role in front of us to hide ourselves.
Yeah. And sometimes because I've got a
task, you know, I'll do my task so that I don't need to be there
or almost to exclude ourselves. We'll go like, I'm going to, I'm
going to be excluded here. And we'll put my task in front.
Oh, no, you don't want me. You don't want me.
And it's like, almost like because we're, because we've
rejected ourselves. We used to run this show at the
TRC. And it's how I develop this way
of making the music. It was every month I would play,
make a different band. And I found that it's quite
tricky because the more inclusive you make a project,
the more risky it is in a way. Because if you've got something
that's extremely that really everyone there is really into,
they all feel, yes, I am this thing, I am a part of this
thing, I am this community. If you miss one person, then
they are in big trouble, you know, they are having a horrible
time. Whereas if you make just
something, you know, doesn't matter if, yeah, I guess I'm
here, it's OK. And no, no one's particularly
bothered about it. No, it's just a fun thing.
I guess it was fun. Can't remember.
What's it called? If you miss someone there,
you're OK. But then sometimes we human
beings, we go to things wanting to be excluded.
Actually, if we go to things with a bitterness we've kept
from some painful experience, seeking to embody our
excludedness, we will go to the thing and say this is not, you
know, I've done it myself, I'm sure.
And and so caring for those people that including them
because it will only ever be their own choice.
Community is made of people choosing.
I got the heat last year. I mean, we did 150 concerts with
the Andre 3000 New Blue Sun Tour and I was inviting so many
people to be a part of it and everybody that I couldn't get or
I couldn't invite or that I specifically didn't invite And
and I was just like. Oh my God.
Figuring out also how to like manage that within myself,
'cause I care about everybody's feelings, but also like I what I
did pull off what, what, what he did agree to was like fucking so
wild, so courageous. I was like, damn, you know, like
I made this list at the end of the year of like everybody that
we were able to include. And, and like that he would even
do that and he like, I would ask him, he's like, you know, I've
never met Genhavia, but he, if you say, so let's do it.
And then, then, then he saw her here and he's like, when is she
playing with us? And I was like, I know, like,
let's see where we can cross paths or whatever.
And, but, but the amount of people that hit me up like that
were hurt 'cause they only got to play once.
And I, and I, and I'm just like, I'm just like, yeah, you know,
this, this happens too. It's one of the reasons why
sometimes people are really tight with their, with their
thing. But like in regard to community
for me, I'm kind of like, yeah, I'll take the heat.
I'm like a big bearish, you know, a lot of hair.
I don't know, like I, I kind of, I'm like, I'm like, it's cool.
I'll have that extra conversation.
I can, I can have an e-mail with you.
I can have an actual conversation with you about how
it didn't work out or why, you know.
And so so I think sometimes too in these roles, we decide like
how much we're going to take on like you just just imagining
like hearing you and and thinking that yesterday you
played three concerts and that you gave what I know you give,
you know, and opened up in the way that I know you opened up is
like, whoa, I'm like, whoa, OK. That's it.
The thing that is really coming to mind is that well, one thing
to be completely honest, like I come from a world where we have
7 days of continuous performance.
So the fact that I was tired by the third only tells me that
I've started to think more about myself because when I was
younger, we could do 7 days and I I was never tired.
I think part of the exhaustion is coming from this presumption
that I I'm putting anything together.
I am doing anything the basis of the language I grew up speaking,
which is Thummer. Someone came up to me yesterday
and spoke to me in Thummer. I don't know if if said person
is here, which was I was very grateful for, but this is not
the case only with my language, but it's the case perhaps with
many of your languages as well. But all the vowels are called
weirder to weirder. The thing I spoke of before,
which is life force. All the vowels are known as that
which carries the life force. All the consonances are known as
mayor, the OR the body. And our understanding is that we
are here as physical forms to learn how to become.
I'm I'm translating this too quickly, but we are here to
learn how to become that which marries the life force that
needs to be born in any given moment.
We are not meant to know what principles were meant to birth.
We, we're not putting anything together.
If you are meant to show up to a ritual, it's, it's not even,
it's not in our grammar to even think, oh, why didn't they
select me to do this? You just show up and do your
thing. And I think part of the
difficulty that feels very tender is that when we are
forging our new paths, we are creating new grammars, which
means we are creating new worlds and new structures.
And then suddenly we feel like we're the ones creating.
And maybe we forget that we're just the mayor through
witnessing. We're speak through us because
then there's enough responsibility to place blame.
But you know, I, I, the 1st 20 years of my life, I don't
remember there being a lot of talk about anyone feeling
included or excluded because it feels like, you know, you
inherited a kind of way and then you're faring that kind of way
to the future. And of course there's
complications and pains with that as well.
But I think sometimes it's just a question of looking at all the
forms that we have access to, both the things from the past,
the ones that were all birthing, the ones that we can kind of see
coming in the future. It's through our younger
colleagues. Speaking of weeds, I remember
some of my most profound memories are gardening with my,
with my teachers, actually, including Esperanza, though
she'd probably laugh if she knew I was calling her a teacher,
which to me is also why she's a really good teacher.
You know, humility. But there's this one moment when
we were sitting together studying, trying to witness what
was going to be born for Iphigenia, which was Elder Wayne
Shorter's opera. And someone was basically
telling us that there are these plants that are growing through
the cracks and concrete in New York that are the exact kinds of
plants that you would take to make teas to calm your nervous
system. As if the earth was trying to
speak back to us, to say, I am birthing form for you.
But everyone thought it was weeds and kept like, you know,
pouring poison or pesticide or whatever over it.
And I feel like that's what I meant earlier by saying that I
don't, I don't necessarily feel like my life force is low.
I feel like it is immense and regenerative, but it becomes low
when I think about myself. It becomes low, but it is
infinite when I am not answering to anyone or for anything.
My grandmother, which I've, you know, I've, I, she, she would
have turned 100 this year, but she taught so many people.
And I used to be so angry at her when I was young because folks
who were not the kindest and she knew would come to her and they
would be, she would be so kind to them, so kind to them.
And I used to think she was weak.
I used to think that she was so weak.
And I told her so because I was 13.
And she used to keep saying the same thing, which years later I
would read in the Vimala Kirti Sutra with Peter and just
breakdown, which is this idea that I have a limited life.
And I accept that in my condition as a mayor, that which
is physical here and it is meant to perish, that in my
limitedness, I will spend what little I have here towards the
principle of love, you know? And as as you said, sometimes
that means embodying like I meant to birth something that is
in counterbalance. It's not always about inclusion.
It's not always about. But all I mean is that the logic
of what we're meant to birth is so much greater than any grammar
that I can contain or rationalize or understand
because it's true. If I put my human mind to it, I
can't always know what's a weed and I can't always know what's a
plant. Yeah.
I mean, that's the saving grace of of also having teachers by
our side. To be honest, I was hesitant
even to come, I think, to the panel because it feels like the
world is so full of language. And I am a person who was raised
in seven day performances. I don't know, succinctness, but
I was not raised to value it. So I did not think that I was an
appropriate person to come to a panel because I can't think in
quick terms like that. But I also understood.
I didn't mean to keep talking about Esperanza today, by the
way. I just, I, I, I saw her
yesterday after a while and apparently I miss her a lot.
And I it's easier to express gratitude to you than to
actually tell her. But one of the last things I'll
tell you is that I remember telling her about how I wish
that I could not consume anything and become a thing that
was just completely quiet and didn't want to ask for anything
from anyone. And she just laughed.
And she's like, that's really dramatic and unnecessary.
We're here to be part of the network.
She's like, imagine a mother who's just given birth.
If the child doesn't pull the milk out of her body, she'll be
in pain. If you're meant to do this and
you came here, as you said, if we came here with a contract to
do something, you have to do it or you'll die because then your
body will start revolting and there.
Is an aspect of like receiving isn't there where where more
things occur quicker when I've been learning to receive
recently the the pleasant things and the the the distressing
things receiving Well, thank you, Hello, hello thing that has
come and yes, I receive you and it can be really scary, but it
means that more things move quicker.
And he, he reminded me of this feeling that, you know, the song
wants to come through. Get out of the way of the song
or everyone's looking at me and listening to me.
It must be about me. No, it's not about me being good
or bad at the thing. The song wants to come through
anyway. The the thing that the song is
about will be true. Whatever we do or don't do here,
let the song get out of the way of the song.
The great thing wants to happen. Let us allow it to happen.
The community wishes to be. Let us work to work.
Let us do things and allow the community to to be that chooses
its own moment. Yeah, this is this is rad.
I'm I'm really enjoying this. I'm excited to get out into the
daylight too. But weeds I had a great teacher.
I used to have like this real strong word like it's not, it's
not a weed, you know, it's herb. You know, I, I, I, I was like
rebelling against this word weed.
And I just want to say like when I was taught not to look at
weeds, even or that word in a derogatory like weeds, our
plants, however you want to call them, they're exalted.
They are exactly what they all have a purpose.
You might not want them in your manicured garden or lawn, but
you're you're missing out. Like, like, like the true
masters know it, every single thing that's growing does.
And, and they don't know everything about everything, but
they know a lot about a lot. And, and I was with this, yeah,
with my guy Luis and, and he was just like that does this that
does like, oh, I love that one right there.
These are all things that people chop up and throw away all day
'cause they don't know better. And that brings me back to
language, though, which is that even the connotation of this
word, weed. What if we thought of weeds the
way we think of flowers? What we think of, as, you know,
a classification of plants as somehow being lesser is not
lesser at all. In fact, it's like, like magic,
like just totally a magical expression of the earth.
That's an exciting way to kind of think about also like, what
music could be or what community could be or what these words
could be. Not necessarily what they are
all the time. But anyway, yeah, I don't know.
I think that's a beautiful way to say thank you to all of you
for this conversation. Yeah, and thank you.
Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big
Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti.
The show is produced by Matt Marowitz.
This episode was edited by Trevor Smith with Delilah Ryder.
Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big
Ears. Big Ears 2026 will take place
March 26 through 292026 in Knoxville, TN.
For more information and festival updates, visit
bigearsfestival.org. Thanks for listening and until
next time, keep those ears wide open.