1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,480 Welcome back to Big Ears conversations about music. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:17,240 I'm your host Matt Marowitz. Today we bring you a soulful, 3 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,560 far reaching conversation recorded live at the Blue Note 4 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,760 Lounge and Jackson Terminal during Big Years 2025. 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,520 On this episode, we listen in on a rare exchange between Charles 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,920 Lloyd, the legendary saxophonist, bandleader, 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,720 composer and NEA jazz master whose music has traced A 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,840 lifelong journey toward truth and transcendence. 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,880 And Don was president of Blue Note Records, who's played a key 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,520 role in shaping the most recent and inspired chapter of Charles 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,840 ongoing story at Blue Note Records. 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,680 It's a conversation filled with wisdom, humor and moments of 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,520 revelation. Recollections of Ornette Coleman 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,120 and Don Cherry, spiritual encounters with Zakir Hussein, 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,880 reflections on early experiences with Scotty Lafaro and Booker 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,000 Little, and memories from gigs alongside Howlin' Wolf, B.B. 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,480 King and Jimi Hendrix. It's Charles in his element. 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,960 Ruminative, poetic, often cosmic, but always grounded in 19 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:19,200 the truth of lived experience. Don was a long time admirer 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,080 turned collaborator. Guides the conversation with 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,160 warmth and humility, reflecting on his own listening history 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,920 with Charles, music, and what it's meant to witness 23 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,560 discontinued evolution. Here's Charles Lloyd and Don was 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:48,480 live for Big Ears, 2025. Hey everybody, how you doing? 25 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,040 I guess we we can sit. Sit down please. 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:02:00,520 My scroll. Just as a short introduction 27 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:07,320 here, personally, this, this this the maestro here is my 28 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,400 hero. I have more Charles Lloyd 29 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,560 records in my collection than than any other artist. 30 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,880 I've been going to see him live since 1967. 31 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,960 When I got the gig at Blue Note. The first call I made was to 32 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,200 his, his, his wife Dorothy, which is when I discovered that 33 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,440 it's, it's probably illegal to call an artist who's under 34 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,920 contract to another label. But fortunately, his, his 35 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:43,080 contract lapsed at ECM after a long period and he came over to 36 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:50,480 Blue Note and we're so privileged to to be, to be 37 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,400 participants in this, this stage of, of his career. 38 00:02:54,400 --> 00:03:00,360 He had an incredible last year. I think he made the best record 39 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,240 of his life, if not the best, certainly among the best, which 40 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,160 is a beautiful album. He and he he won the Downbeat 41 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Critics poll for Artist of the Year, Saxophonist of the Year, 42 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,240 Album of the Year, got elected to the Hall of Fame. 43 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Unprecedented. So it's a great honour to be 44 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,400 here today with the mighty Charles Lloyd. 45 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:39,070 That was an awesome concert last night. 46 00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:52,000 Very moving kind of translate reaction, very, very, very 47 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,600 spiritual thing. And I know it was coming from a 48 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,560 deep place. You, you went, you went back 49 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,640 with Sakir Hussain for a long time. 50 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,120 And I wonder if we could just talk about him for a minute. 51 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,840 Everyone knows he's a master of the instruments, but he had 52 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,880 something else going on besides just mastery of the instrument. 53 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,800 And please tell us about him. Well, he's he's the master of 54 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,320 very much stuff, the title that goes back 5000 years in India 55 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:33,520 and his father before him. I heard his father with Ravi 56 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:39,400 Shankar when I was in college at USC in mid 50s. 57 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:45,800 And then I heard him later with Ali Akbar Khan. 58 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,760 And I'm from Memphis down the road. 59 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:59,000 And I, when I heard Indian music, I, I, it resonated with 60 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,320 me. I played with Wolf and a lot of 61 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:09,000 guys, you know, Bobby Blue, Bland, Johnny Ace, Junior 62 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Parker, BB. Those are the kind of gigs we 63 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:22,400 could have in Memphis. But when I heard his father, Ala 64 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,280 Roka, it touched the chord in me. 65 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,480 So one day we received a call from John McLaughlin saying that 66 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,040 he was playing down at UCLA with Shakti and he wanted us to come 67 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,680 down to hear them. And I hadn't met Zakir before 68 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,440 that. That was what year in the 70s or 69 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:55,000 I don't know what decades, but but I lose decades now, you 70 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,480 know, and I gained decades. So I'm, I'm not, you know, going 71 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,040 or coming. I'm not attached, you know, it's 72 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,360 it's last night of the play. And they could Boo or applaud. 73 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,960 I'm not going to, I'm going to sing my song. 74 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,760 And it's like kind of like that, you know, So when I heard It's 75 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,680 like you, it was, it was kind of like how Howlin' Wolf affected 76 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,640 me. You know, it was, I know it's 77 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,000 not the same thing, but it was, it was very visceral and very 78 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,560 deep. And he was playing the tableau, 79 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,160 but the Blues was was coming out of there. 80 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,840 And so I could, I was confounded, you know. 81 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,560 And then when we met, he told me that years ago when I was on A 82 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:47,680 and M and I made a record, Gita and I had Ashish and Pranish 83 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,640 playing tablets and they were Ali Akbar Khan's sons. 84 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,480 And he, when they told him they were going down to LA to record 85 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,600 with me, he said he, he said that should be me. 86 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,280 So it was him. So it took us a long time to get 87 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,480 together. I don't know how you know how 88 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,720 these meetings work, but you know, stay alert and be awake 89 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,520 because you know what you're looking for is looking for you 90 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:29,040 and make sure that Caesar, none of that stuff comes in and takes 91 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,160 you out. You know, you have to stay in 92 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,600 another key, you know, and modulate. 93 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,160 You have to modulate a lot, you know, but you don't get attached 94 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,640 to the relative either, because this is a bridge and you can't 95 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,240 build a house on a bridge. We're just passing through. 96 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,560 And this song that we sing is from the Eternal Verities. 97 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,160 And Zakir and I spent a quarter of a century together and that 98 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,960 was a beautiful thing. And he was there last evening. 99 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,480 And as was Master Higgins. And Master Higgins, I, I met 100 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,200 when I first went to Cali, I went to a jam session. 101 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,080 I was That will tell you a story about Master Higgins. 102 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,640 Can you forgive me? So. 103 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,680 So Master Higgins told me that one day he and Don Cherry were 104 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,240 living in Watts and they were playing stick ball out in the 105 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,680 street and they heard a sound coming from way away. 106 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:32,240 But they put their dealings aside and they started running 107 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,400 towards the sound. And when they got to it, it was 108 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,559 a building that was a music store and inside was Ornette 109 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,880 trying out a read. And so that, but they heard that 110 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,800 sound. And I don't know if he bought 111 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,200 the read or you could you could in those days, you could test 112 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,840 the read before you bought it, you know, like now you have to 113 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,240 buy the box. And then I had a friend, Frank 114 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,360 Strozier, in high school. He stopped playing because he 115 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,280 couldn't find any good reads, You know, So it's relative to 116 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,320 how how the, how you work with the situation. 117 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:15,120 But why am I drifting like this? Oh, you know, it's a circular 118 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,040 motion. You're going to think he's 119 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,040 drifting. And then you realize that the 120 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,280 whole totality of this hour is totally well constructed and 121 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:29,560 it's just like he plays when we talk about secure. 122 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:36,320 Yeah, well, we had this deep bond and you know, he this stone 123 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,560 in in this ring, he, he brought it back from India. 124 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,120 I had to have a golden Topaz stone for, you know, you have a 125 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,200 Ayurvedic Dr. and he'll tell you you need stones for this and 126 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,800 that and some, some, some of it worked, you know, and you know, 127 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,800 you don't have to subscribe to all of this stuff. 128 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,000 But anyway, but he said this stone will keep you from 129 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,000 worrying about money. And I said, wow, that's a deep 130 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,840 one because I don't want to ever get hung up in that, you know? 131 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:12,200 So Zarkia procured the stone. Dorothy had it set in India. 132 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,120 I'm just trying to say he was very loving and very giving. 133 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,920 And in the music that we made together, he loved the saying 134 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,280 that I had have that I never got good enough to quit. 135 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,520 That's why I keep playing. So he liked that very much. 136 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:35,920 So I'm, I'm still on the path, you know, but I'm, I'm drunk 137 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:40,720 with music and, and I don't have a job or a place here, you know, 138 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,280 And what I'm saying is that I've been with those other record 139 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,400 places, but not until Dawn came along because he had heard me 140 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,760 when he was 13 or 14. And so he got the hit and that 141 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,840 was the band with Keith Jarrett and Jack T Jeanette. 142 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,080 And that's what my B And he heard us. 143 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:05,040 And so then one day he was the president of a record company, 144 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,840 you know, And so Nate Shannon said that's this guy who says 145 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,400 that. He said Don Wall said he wants 146 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,960 you to be the first guy on his label. 147 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,480 But I had been over there at ECM for 25 years. 148 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,440 He said my contract ran out, but actually we left. 149 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,960 Well, because I'm the ECM stuff was kind of like hermetically 150 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,920 sealed or something, you know, and I was trying to get away 151 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,760 from so much echo and stuff. And I and so when I first, I 152 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,440 have this friend, Steve Cloud, who takes care of Junior, that's 153 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,160 Keith Jarrett. And he told man, man for So what 154 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,200 are you doing you? So I'm working with Charles 155 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Lloyd. He so I thought he was gone. 156 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,160 He said what he is, but he he's going to come back and and 157 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,960 there's a little guy, Michelle Petrucciani showed up at our 158 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,840 place in Big Sur and he was a little guy about two or three 159 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,760 feet tall and he had glass bones. 160 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,760 He showed up. He was 18. 161 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,440 And I told the folks at Esalen to put him up and make him 162 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,480 comfortable till we came home. I was somewhere else, and so 163 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,440 when I came back, we started playing like that. 164 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,440 And so I heard he had this beautiful gift. 165 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,080 So I took him around the world for a couple of years to get him 166 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,560 started. And that's how that happened. 167 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:35,320 And yeah, he only kept a body for 36 years in this 168 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,800 incarnation. That's the other thing, you 169 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:44,760 know, that one man can how to say conquer a million men in 170 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,000 battle, but the general or something, but the the greatest 171 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,800 is the guy who can or gal who can conquer himself or herself, 172 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,040 you know. So check that out and make sure 173 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:03,080 you be vigilant and watch your watch your proclivities and some 174 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,120 of that stuff that dances through your head. 175 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,960 You don't want to entertain, you know, and you stay on the path 176 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,120 and try to be truthful and loving and and don't go for the 177 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:37,600 okey doke. I've gotten to see you play a 178 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,160 lot in the last couple weeks. We're in Santa Barbara, played 179 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,480 with completely different group last night and. 180 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,040 We recorded. We recorded for several days in 181 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,600 Santa Barbara. And Don came up. 182 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,920 I was very mood. I think he was wanting to see 183 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,680 how I worked, you know? But you can't see it because 184 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,200 it's not like it's not to be seen. 185 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,160 It's. But he perceived it, though. 186 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,920 Yeah. And he has lots of trust. 187 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,800 Yeah. Well, one of the things I 188 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,360 noticed in the studio is that we'd sit around, we'd play back 189 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,760 what was happening the day before and you were just you 190 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,440 were kind of waiting for everything to align. 191 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:21,560 And then when you were in in the zone, I guess you went out there 192 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,760 and, you know, played a whole albums worth of music without 193 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,280 coming back in. When I saw you last night, there 194 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,440 was you don't really have the luxury in a concert where you 195 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,280 know the Teamsters are going to kick you out at 9:30 and that 196 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,360 kind of thing. How how do you get you were you 197 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,720 were there from the the first note? 198 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,160 How do you prepare for that when it's got to happen at a certain 199 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,600 time? The whole of life is a 200 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:56,240 preparation, but Dorothy's always yelling, calling to get 201 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,560 me off the stage because I don't know what time it is. 202 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,360 You know, the now is is pregnant with elixirs and when you go in 203 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,960 there, you don't need to be messing with the temporal stuff, 204 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,840 you know, And she always is sitting on the side of the 205 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,200 stage. Dorothy Darr, my better half. 206 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,840 That was her visuals last night that you see them. 207 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Dorothy, where are you? Where are you, Dorothy? 208 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,680 Dorothy, where are you? Where are you? 209 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,240 Stand up. Please stand up. 210 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,040 Dorothy Darr. Come on, Dorothy. 211 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:25,400 Please. She won't. 212 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:32,320 Yeah, she, she's been taking care of me for this lifetime and 213 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,640 many lifetimes before. So she came to get me in like 214 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,600 that. So, but I can tell, you know, I 215 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,520 can tell. And I got mileage, but it 216 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,560 doesn't impede the beginner's mind. 217 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,720 So that's a good combination to adapt. 218 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,400 You know, you could, you could go a long way with that. 219 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,640 You don't have to. And then, Caesar, none of that 220 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,440 stuff will get in your way because that's another kind of 221 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,920 frequency, you know? And you, you keep your stuff. 222 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,880 Well, like that. Yeah, it won't hurt. 223 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Did it And stuff. Yeah. 224 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,400 What what do you do to to actually prepare? 225 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,360 Is there? The whole of life is 226 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:11,720 preparation. The whole of life is 227 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,280 preparation. So you were you were ready. 228 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,080 You've been ready. Yeah. 80 years for that concert 229 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,120 lesson. I I get it. 230 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,960 Well, I know you're an incredible bandleader. 231 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,760 And I can it's really evident when I hit like Jason is such a 232 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,000 good example. He sounds different when he 233 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,800 plays with you and and you bring out something brand new in him. 234 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,600 But you do it. You've you've done a talking. 235 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,520 About Jason Moran. Jason Moran, Yeah. 236 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,400 What do you think makes a good band leader? 237 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,520 You, you worked with Chico Hamilton. 238 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,240 You worked with Cannonball Adderly. 239 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,240 You you some great band leaders, but I think you're a master 240 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,920 bandleader. I don't know about any of that. 241 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,040 When I was playing with Chico, I replaced Eric Dolphy, who who 242 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,000 stayed in who stayed in New York to play with Mingus. 243 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,960 And so when I joined Chico, we were playing one of the early 244 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,319 gigs was well, we were back East, but we were playing San 245 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,839 Francisco. I remember and and I had brought 246 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,359 Gabor into the band and Albert Stencils a wonderful basis. 247 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,040 I don't know if any of you have the ability to check him out, 248 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,319 but he was amazing. And there's some guy, don't 249 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,000 remember his name, a bass player who played with Bill Evans. 250 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,720 And he said that at the time, you know, when Scotty left town 251 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,520 early. Scotty was my best friend in 252 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,760 California. You know what he did? 253 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,680 One day I was, I was going to see, and he had just come out 254 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,920 from where do you come from? Geneva, NY, upstate New York, 255 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,400 somewhere he lived. He played clarinet before he 256 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,240 played bass. So I don't know, somehow we, we 257 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,880 just synced up and he came over to my house one day and he 258 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,280 brought Bird solo and just friends. 259 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,560 He had copied it off the record and brought it, you know, as an 260 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,960 offering or something like that. You know what, when we were in 261 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,640 San Francisco play at the Jazz Workshop, I used to walk around 262 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,840 North Beach and in that whole area and there was a lot of 263 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,760 designer shops, you know, furniture and different stuff. 264 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,480 It was, you know, avant-garde or something like that. 265 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,320 And so I looked in this one window and there was this Eames 266 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,680 chair, you know that with the Ottoman. 267 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,640 And so I didn't know what it was at the time. 268 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,480 It was early Ray and Charles Eames probably just made that 269 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,240 thing somewhere in the early for late 40s or early 50s. 270 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,240 So I go in the shop. So I say to this woman, pardon 271 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,080 me man, but that beautiful chair in the window, what's the cost 272 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,160 of it? And she said, it's $500. 273 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,200 And I said, wow, I said it's very expensive. 274 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,080 She said, oh, it's all relative. Young men come back when you're 275 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,400 ready, you know, because, you know, they're like several 276 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,880 thousand now, you know, but the inflation or whatever, how they 277 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:02,160 mess, move stuff around. But that was my research, you 278 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,240 know, just walking around the city and and checking things 279 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,960 out. I have several of those chairs 280 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,080 now. That's what I was thinking of. 281 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,440 Let's let's talk about Scott Lafaro. 282 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,320 And you met, You mentioned you're, you're. 283 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,200 Yeah. Good. 284 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,640 See, we got at least one bass player over there. 285 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,000 He changed the game for everybody who came after him. 286 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,960 Yeah, he was. Well, it was a heady time. 287 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,840 I it's 1956. I was running out of Memphis. 288 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,440 I was playing with Willie Mitchell's band over in West 289 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,560 Memphis in one of those white dance halls. 290 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,120 And those girls liked us, you know, And so we would dance 291 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:50,960 sometimes. And one day my mother got a call 292 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:56,080 from the police station. My stepfather sold car cars and 293 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,000 guys he would give him AI don't know commissioners, you know 294 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,080 this guy bring somebody to buy a car and he. 295 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,040 And give him some bread too, you know. 296 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,640 So anyway, this guy called from the police station. 297 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,920 He said, listen, they just had a meeting and they're going to 298 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,320 arrest Willie's band tomorrow night. 299 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,320 And your son is is up on the board, his name. 300 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,360 So just wanted to alert you that when they get ready to go to 301 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:26,640 work tomorrow night at the meeting place, they will be 302 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,760 arrested. So my mother said no, they 303 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,080 won't. So she put me on a train the 304 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,640 next morning for Cali, you know, and my stepdad also was a 305 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,520 Pullman Porter. So he put me in drawing room A 306 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,160 and I got used to that. You know, I kind of, I liked 307 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,520 simple life, you know, and seclusion and like that. 308 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,040 So but so I got the Cali and then I was walking around 309 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,560 campus. It was summertime and check this 310 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,200 out. They had a thing. 311 00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:00,880 They were, the fraternities were writing to us trying to solicit 312 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:07,160 for me to come and stay at their houses during the summer because 313 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,400 they didn't have any tenants, you know, So they were getting 314 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,760 some extra income. So when I got to the dorm, I 315 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,120 told some of the guys that the fraternities were trying to get 316 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,200 me to come. And they all laughed, you know, 317 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,080 like, you know, they invited you, but they hadn't seen you. 318 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,680 So it, it wouldn't have, it wouldn't have worked, you know, 319 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,120 something like that. I didn't. 320 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,280 And, and in the dorm, they put me with a Hawaiian because there 321 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,640 was no other brothers there during the summertime. 322 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,480 And this Hawaiian guy, Ken Pertle was, was from Punahou 323 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:44,160 High School in, in Honolulu. And he was a very special guy, 324 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,440 but he went and joined the fraternities that it wouldn't 325 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,360 have taken me. And somehow he took himself out 326 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,360 prematurely early in life. And I think that somehow that 327 00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:57,880 thing didn't work for him either. 328 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,120 Being Hawaii, Hawaiian, you know, isn't that weird. 329 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,480 So don't, don't practice. That program is not not healthy 330 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:10,440 for you or the planet, you know What are you talking about? 331 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,960 We were, we were sort of heading Scotty. 332 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:14,680 Scotty. Yeah. 333 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,240 Scotty. So, yeah. 334 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,440 So, yeah, there you go. I I was walking off campus and I 335 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,200 saw this sign on on Vermont at a club called the Stadium Club. 336 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,120 It said jam session on Sunday afternoon. 337 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,520 So, you know, I've been there with Phineas Newborn was my 338 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,760 mentor and George Coleman and these guys, you know, we they 339 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,040 were elders, but they had prepared us. 340 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,320 You know, George Coleman's like a like a Santini, like one of 341 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,600 those drill sergeants. You know, he wants to play 342 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,320 Cherokee and B flat, but then let's play it in E and let's 343 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:53,640 play it in A, you know, so you have to have your your abilities 344 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,120 up to speed, you know, and so he, he was like that. 345 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,840 And so it was, it was a good training and, and but Phineas 346 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,960 heard me at an amateur show and I won first prize and I went 347 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,120 into the wings and he said you need lessons bad. 348 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,880 So he took me around the corner on Beale Street to Urban Reason. 349 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,280 A wonderful Alto player. Anyway, so so I go to this jam 350 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:26,280 session and Ornette was there. He had a interesting outfit that 351 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,200 he homemade that he had made. It was suspenders and some 352 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,040 different kind of stuff, you know, and there was no currency 353 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,320 yet, you know, so he had to make it himself. 354 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,480 And so he got. He was on the bandstand. 355 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,000 I'm getting to Scotty. Yeah, I'm not. 356 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,920 I just want to show you something. 357 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,800 So when he when he was on the bandstand, they invited him off 358 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,120 the bandstand. And so I was watching all of 359 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,560 this, you know, because I'm waiting in line to play. 360 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,320 But they didn't, you know, they, they didn't know me or I didn't 361 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,080 have any, you know, credibility. And how could I? 362 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,360 I'm 18 years old, you know, what's he going to bring to the 363 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:14,520 stand, you know? And so Ornette left the stage. 364 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,000 And so at the end of the evening, I finally played and 365 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Ornette came up to me and said, you know, you can really play 366 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,360 the saxophone, he said, but that doesn't have much to do with 367 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,400 music, you know? And so right there, you got my 368 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:34,440 attention, you know, and, and we became real tight because he was 369 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,760 about 8 years my senior. I was 28, he was about 26. 370 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,720 Oh, this one other thing I have to tell you about Scott before 371 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:46,480 we get to Scotty. Ornette had a Studebaker car. 372 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,200 I don't know if you ever seen those this way before your time, 373 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,560 but you can't tell the front from the back sometimes, the way 374 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,480 they're constructed. And we were at a jam session one 375 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,120 day at Lacris Club over by Wrigley Field in LA. 376 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:05,320 They had one too, and we were so high from the music that Ornette 377 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,320 backed over his his horn as we were leaving. 378 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,520 Because you know, when you reel high, you don't know which, 379 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,720 which you know, directions and stuff is not, not important to 380 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,800 the mission, you know, so, so, so he drove over his Alto and 381 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,400 that's how he got a plastic Alto. 382 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,000 Like they were very inexpensive, a real Selma. 383 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,560 It's like the team's share. They were about $500 in those 384 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,720 days. They're now, you know, several 385 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,480 $1000. So anyway, like that, but we 386 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,720 became very, very tight. One day he walks over to my 387 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,080 house and he takes out his horn. Because we had we had not 388 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,600 arguments, but George Coleman, you know, who's real, real 389 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,440 strict taskmaster, you know, and that was loose with the with 390 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,520 that kind of stuff. You know, he had his own 391 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,880 cosmology actually. So anyway, so he takes out his 392 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,080 horn. Any saxophone players here? 393 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,280 No. Oh, probably 11 SEC two. 394 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,720 Wow. Anyway, I'll be quick then. 395 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,640 So he takes out his horn. He plays the lowest note and 396 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,880 then he plays the highest note and then he chromatically brings 397 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,720 them into to a meeting. And it's like this. 398 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,080 What? And he brought the whole 399 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,560 universe and it was like in a nanosecond. 400 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,480 So I didn't have any more arguments. 401 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,960 I bowed down, took the dust of his feet and I said, OK, OK, 402 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,520 Master, you, you got it, you know, and, and we'd never argued 403 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,840 anymore after that. We did have long conversations 404 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,720 about 5 hour conversations on the phone. 405 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:45,960 Dorothy, what are you talking about? 406 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,840 Well, he would say, he would tell me that a chord doesn't 407 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,800 resolve. You know, he had different 408 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,520 cosmologies and chords don't resolve, you know, you know. 409 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:02,640 So in in walk Scotty at some point and I met him at a jam 410 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,360 session and there were a lot of jam sessions in LA in those 411 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:13,440 days, mid 50s, late late 50s. And he, he looked like Steve 412 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,120 McQueen, if you can picture that. 413 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,040 And he, he had, he could drive like that too. 414 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,560 He, you know, he could, he would see it, you know, he would, you 415 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,080 know, point and shoot. He would see a hole and he would 416 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,960 just go through it, you know, and we like fast cars and stuff 417 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,320 like that. So we, we had a lot of stuff in 418 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,800 common, you know, but that stuff you're talking about his 419 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,080 playing, his ability to play horn, like into, to also have a 420 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,880 kind of celestial swing. He could also anchor stuff and 421 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,320 lift it up and move it around. So when Scotty left town, I'll 422 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,960 come back more about Scotty. But there was some guy, Chuck 423 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,040 Israel, that was his name. He, he went with Bill for a 424 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,880 time, but he said he got the gig. 425 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,520 But he knew the guy that Bill should have hired was Albert 426 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,640 Stinson. But Bill didn't know about 427 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,160 Albert Stinson. So he, he was covetous of the 428 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,040 gig. So he got the gig, you know, 429 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,800 somehow, but and, and Albert Stinson left town real early in 430 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,400 his 20s. You know, 27 is about the limit 431 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,680 for a lot of people in in a certain zone, you know, and Jimi 432 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Hendrix said Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, I saw a few days just 433 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,560 before she left. I used to play a lot of gigs 434 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,160 with those people anyway, Scotty, he was very what's the 435 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,800 word? He was always doing this with 436 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:50,000 his hair and then he, he has some steel strings. 437 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,280 I don't know what that means, you know, but and he was rubbing 438 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:59,680 juice from his hair on his strings and he was he, he could 439 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,760 operate, you know, and we love playing together and we played 440 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,880 play a lot of gigs together and we drove a lot of cars and stuff 441 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,960 like that together. And we, we, he was a beautiful 442 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,240 soul, just beautiful Colorado very what's the word in the now 443 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,880 and not Future Past kind of stuff was he interested in? 444 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,520 And, and we, we operated like that. 445 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,400 And my best friend in high school was Booker little anybody 446 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,480 know of him? Now there's a guy, there's a say 447 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,360 now there's a real sage. When I first got to New York, I 448 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,480 stayed with him because I, I was staying at the Alvin Hotel where 449 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Lester Young had stayed and left town from. 450 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,280 And, and Booker, Providence is not another beautiful thing that 451 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,560 can happen for you. You just stay alert, you know. 452 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,880 And so that particular night, Monday night, I check into the 453 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,440 Alvin Hotel and I and Bert across the street was Cataconic, 454 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,480 it was Birdland. And I went downstairs and I 455 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,080 said, Booker, I'm here. And he said, where are you 456 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,240 staying? I said, I'm staying at the 457 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,560 Alvin. He said, no, you're not, go pack 458 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,360 your bags. You're coming home with me. 459 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,880 And he lived up on E 92nd St. between Lex and 3rd and he took 460 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,600 me home with him and he began to dismantle me because I was ready 461 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,880 to jump into the fast lane. And he said no, it's about 462 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,800 character, you know. So he, he got my attention, but 463 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:37,800 he left at 23 I believe, you know, And I stayed with him for 464 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,720 about 6 months. He and his lady Mattel, they had 465 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,320 a beautiful little flat up there for like walk up in a sort of 466 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,480 Polish neighborhood. And he would, we would play and 467 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,840 then he would talk to me about intervals. 468 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,840 And, and this is good for musicians that you want to mix 469 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,440 the sweet and sour sauce. You know, you want to, you want 470 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,920 to learn how to mix the, the dissonance with the consonants 471 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,200 so you're not always playing some little looney tune kind of 472 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,360 stuff. You know, you want your stuff to 473 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:18,200 have some, some not spice a bite, but, but you, you want to 474 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,240 find how intervals work. And that's what Ornette was 475 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,160 really good about sound. You know, you want to understand 476 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:30,640 sound and and then it's good to know Harmony and, and not just 477 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,160 Walter Piston, but you can find ways. 478 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,800 Well, now schools have all that stuff, but it's not the same 479 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,920 thing as as making your own cake. 480 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,320 You know, you'll get it in a box. 481 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,640 Now it's not the same thing if you make it yourself. 482 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,240 You know, with the ingredients you can you can find some hidden 483 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,200 treasures and stuff like that. And you don't need to use 484 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,720 ingredients that are not healthy for you. 485 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,920 Yeah, longevity, you know, the creator takes care of that. 486 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,520 But the doctors, you know, they can take care of you and stuff. 487 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,600 But they say, well, this guy's not going to make it or this. 488 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,960 But, you know, the creator laughs and said, you know, I'm 489 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,080 in charge of this, you know. So it's like that. 490 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,680 Scotty was a beautiful soul. He left too soon. 491 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,520 He left in a car accident in upstate New York. 492 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,160 He played Newport with Stan Getz, I was told, and he was 493 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,320 driving back to the city or something and it didn't work. 494 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,440 So you have a specific question about him? 495 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,000 I could tell you maybe. I mean, I think you actually 496 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,480 addressed it, just the lyricism that he brought to bass playing 497 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,080 beds because he was a horn player first. 498 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,880 Yeah, he was clearing up. He left Cali. 499 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,640 They all left before I finished college. 500 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,840 I finished college. And you don't have to stay here. 501 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,880 Get out of here. I don't. 502 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,320 I don't need you to stay in here. 503 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:10,480 So no, it's good. So you, you only want to be you, 504 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,320 to be where you're supposed to be. 505 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,880 You know that? Don't. 506 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,600 Don't force it and don't try to do funny stuff. 507 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,720 I want to ask about something else that you. 508 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:35,240 Mentioned. Sure. 509 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,640 I I mean, I, I see some people my age here, but I don't know if 510 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,600 everybody understands that I. Don't see anybody my age. 511 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,400 What's the problem here? Where, where? 512 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,880 Where are those young guys and gals? 513 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,200 Yeah, OK. But Charles. 514 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,480 Like years before Miles Davis did it. 515 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,680 Charles was was really the first, you know what you call 516 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,800 jazz musician to embrace what was going on at the Fillmore and 517 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,159 play it at the Fillmore and play shows, be on a bill with the 518 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,400 Grateful Dead and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. 519 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,760 How how did you end up doing that? 520 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,120 Was that a deliberate course you set or? 521 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,800 No, it's the same thing I'm talking to you about. 522 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,120 Stay alert. You know, we were playing after 523 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,239 we played Monterey. There's a wonderful engineer, 524 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,560 Wally Hyder, who recorded a lot of people. 525 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,480 And so I came out the stage and in those days I had, you know, 526 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,480 Owsley and all that kind of stuff was already available to 527 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,000 us, you know, And so I came out the stage and and Wallace said, 528 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,440 Charles, Charles, I got it. I got it, I got it. 529 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,639 I said, got what Wally, you know, is I got this. 530 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,360 I got the set. I didn't know we were being 531 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,639 recorded, but I was on Atlantic and I guess they had a bee in 532 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,280 their bonnet about sending this guy to record us. 533 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,720 So that was the record Forest flower. 534 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,240 And so he, he's, they knew somehow they knew that that the 535 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,120 elixirs were there, you know, and for me. 536 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,680 Did you just tell us that that you were that you dropped acid 537 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,080 when you cut forest flower or? Not at the time, but we were not 538 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,640 during the show. Not during the show, no. 539 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:22,800 Just checking. Just checking. 540 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,480 Oh, that's, see, that's why I was saying about Booker. 541 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,720 Booker told me to stay out of the fast lane. 542 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,160 But after he left, you know, it's, it's a lot of lot of 543 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,400 traffic out there. And I was a young man. 544 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,600 I was a young man and I, I, I, I knew he was right. 545 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,720 But I, you know, I just wasn't ready to, you know, and I had to 546 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:54,920 do that research, you know, and it, it, it impeded progress in 547 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,560 certain kind of ways because at first it, it reduced inhibitions 548 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,880 and such. But after a while it impeded 549 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,960 creativity, you know, because you need your stash or 550 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,800 something, you know, and that man. 551 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,440 And so I can now I can go cross borders and stuff, you know, and 552 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,240 I'm, I'm, I'm still high and they don't, you know, there's 553 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,760 nothing on me of nothing, nothing. 554 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,960 See, that's the thing. That's here's the thing about 555 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,200 that about drugs. They can put you up on the up on 556 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,720 the rooftop. But the problem is that you, you 557 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,240 fall, you come down all the time. 558 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,920 But spiritual life is interesting because you have to 559 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,760 build the steps. And then when you build the 560 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,120 steps, you can go go back and forth, you know, and you don't 561 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,920 have to have any, any product or anything to, to deal with any of 562 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,720 that. And so I realized it's, it's 563 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,000 kind of like when I was a young man, the old guy said junior, 564 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,360 because I'd heard bird, you know, and the old guys knew 565 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,520 Johnny Hodges and all that. And they said, junior, all those 566 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,960 notes don't mean anything if you don't have a beautiful sound. 567 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,000 So I picked up on that and I started practicing long tones. 568 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,480 You know what long tones are right? 569 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,800 You know, you start, you know, what do you call that? 570 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,640 You crescendo up to 8 counts and then back down on the other side 571 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,560 without wavering and stuff such, you know, so you, it's kind of 572 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,040 like mindful mindfulness in a way. 573 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,160 You know, it's a Buddhist concept, but you, you don't know 574 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,200 what that is at that time. But in listening to the sound, 575 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,920 you can attenuate and you can also get the stuff out of there 576 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,040 that's superfluous and that you don't need. 577 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,000 And then the beauty is that you're left with pure, a pure 578 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,320 sound that that can take you across to the other shore. 579 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,320 And that's what we're aiming for the other shore, because this 580 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,760 furniture value and stuff is not going to be around all the time. 581 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,560 You know, you think that this mileage up here is sitting 582 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,480 before you. It's doesn't impede anything 583 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,720 because I saw what was happening, you know, like that. 584 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,280 So the the what was your question? 585 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,240 Well, I derailed you. I, I, I, I got hung up on 586 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,000 Owsley. But what? 587 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,440 What we were talking about Wally Hyder and. 588 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,480 Well, Owsley used to come around his he had a his grandfather was 589 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,120 the governor of Kentucky. Are you aware of that? 590 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,200 I. Did not know that, yeah. 591 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:30,560 Well, he used to bring a lot 1 time Jimi Hendrix and I were 592 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,200 over to dad's house over in Novato and we were kind of under 593 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,600 a table and, and I was, they had given a given, given us a 594 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,720 handful of stuff, pills, you know, the sunshine and like 595 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:44,160 that. And so I took a couple of them. 596 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,760 But Jimmy just took the whole batch, you know, But it didn't 597 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,520 affect him, you know, I mean, as I could see, you know, he, he 598 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:57,400 was, you know, so and he knew he played down the street from me 599 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,400 in the Village, you know, and I used to hear, you know, coming 600 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,440 out of there on my way to my gigs and stuff. 601 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,120 After Monterey, we went to a club in San Francisco called the 602 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,480 Matador, El Matador and those across the street from the Jazz 603 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,560 workshop. And so happens counterball was 604 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,120 back in there and they would come over to see us and they 605 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,400 realized that what I was doing was right for me anyway, you 606 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,800 know, I couldn't, couldn't stay there too long. 607 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,560 But there was a guy named Morgan Upton. 608 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,840 There was a group up the street, you know, Belushi and those 609 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,640 guys, Second City. Well, this group was called the 610 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,320 Committee Theatre. And they were like creative 611 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,880 comedian guys. And they, they used to come in 612 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,080 after their show would finish. They had their own theatre up up 613 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,880 the street on Broadway in North Beach. 614 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,240 They would come in and they were getting high on our music. 615 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:54,560 They dug, they dug what we were doing. 616 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,520 And so Morgan Upton said, there's this place called the 617 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:03,040 Fillmore and you know, 2000 kids are sitting on the floor and and 618 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,240 you, I'd like for them to hear you. 619 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,120 I said, well, who plays there? He said muddy water. 620 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,960 I said, OK, McKinley, Morgan Field Block. 621 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,720 I said I know those guys, you know, because I'd come through 622 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,760 that circuit. And so he got me invited over to 623 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,400 play for half an hour one Sunday afternoon, an hour and a half. 624 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,920 They wouldn't let us off the stage. 625 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,400 And Santana was up front saying free the people, Charles and 626 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,920 stuff like that. So it was like, it was like 627 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,520 something happened, you know. And so then that circuit invited 628 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,480 me, Chuck, Chuck Helms, the family dog and all of that 629 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,800 stuff. And Janis Joplin was a big fan. 630 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,480 There wasn't. There was an interesting guy, 631 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,240 John Chipolino. You ever heard of him? 632 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,360 He played with Quicksilver. But he was very knowledgeable 633 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,760 about jazz early, all that stuff. 634 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,480 He is anyway, he he's on one of my records during my out period. 635 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,160 What record was that party? What record was that? 636 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,480 Warm waters. He's on warm waters, you know, 637 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,720 and there's another moon man that's kind of out there too. 638 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,560 Check that out sometime. Got to hear those. 639 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,720 If you don't know these records, find them. 640 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:10,880 They're up, they're up streaming, they'll. 641 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,240 Find these. Find these that Justin has over 642 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:16,360 there. The one the the blue node ones. 643 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,600 Yeah, I want to get my car out of the shop, you know? 644 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,800 Yeah, there is. Just look over there to the 645 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:23,920 right. Yeah, to the right. 646 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,320 See those, Rick, get those because they didn't get my car 647 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,600 to shop and get the stuff and like that. 648 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:37,200 Yeah. Yeah, My car is a 1992 Wabens, 649 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:44,360 the 500 E Yeah. So I'm not I'm not buying the 650 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,720 new model. You know, it's the best car they 651 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,640 made. And so I stick with that. 652 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,440 Yeah, Porsche did the transmission and and what Benz 653 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,840 they made them made the mechanics. 654 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,280 Yeah and I heard one of those Mercedes guys engineers, it's 655 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,480 the best car they ever made, you know, so I wasn't asleep at the 656 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,040 wheel. You know, I just, I just 657 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,920 couldn't do Ferraris and stuff anymore because they'd be 658 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,440 stopped a lot, you know, and also, you know, my when, when 659 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,640 windows were tinted and stuff like that, like my glasses, you 660 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,400 know. So anyway, so be it. 661 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,040 What do you look for in musicians? 662 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,000 Because you, because you cast your bands. 663 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,640 What I'm looking for is looking for me. 664 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,000 I already told you that. I knew that. 665 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,040 You know who your people are, You know, You know what? 666 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,560 What? My father was a football coach 667 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,880 and he was a leader of men. So maybe some genealogy and 668 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,520 stuff like that, you know, I don't know. 669 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,640 Where did you meet Bill? I'm still meeting Bill. 670 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,440 I don't know him thoroughly yet, but it's a it's a journey. 671 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,080 And Bill can tell you better than me. 672 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,440 He he met me before I met him. Come up here, Bill. 673 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,120 No, you, you're the narrator. Give him that back. 674 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:30,120 Give him that. Give him. 675 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:45,920 How'd you meet Charles? So I, I bought, I got my first, 676 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:54,320 the first downbeat magazine I got, I saw Charles on the cover 677 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,480 and I was like, wow, this guy. I thought, I just thought you 678 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,080 look cool, right? So no, you were a beautiful man. 679 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,520 And my best friend was a tenor saxophone player. 680 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:15,720 And not quite, no. Oh man. 681 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:23,440 And so me and my friend went to see you play. 682 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:29,760 It was January. I have the exact date somewhere 683 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,880 because it's in Paul Motion's date book in Denver at the 684 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:41,160 Denver Auditorium Theatre, January of 1969. 685 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,760 And it was, I guess Jack had just left the band or something. 686 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,760 Paul Motion was playing drums and Ron McClure was playing bass 687 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,760 and Keith Jarrett was playing piano. 688 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:59,320 And so that was one of the first, my first experiences 689 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:04,600 hearing music of, you know, from that place. 690 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:18,880 And how about that? So then, you know, my 691 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:25,680 imagination just kept. I just kept thinking about it 692 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:36,960 and at some point we met in Europe somewhere and some more 693 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,680 years go by and he asked me to play and I went. 694 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,000 We didn't have a rehearsal. All we did was it was in 695 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,320 Montreal, he said. We'll come up to my come up to 696 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:58,000 my hotel room a knock on the door and he's come on in and he 697 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,720 said I'm looking forward to singing with you tonight and 698 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:09,000 that was that was a rehearsal. So and that's what it is, right, 699 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:14,720 Like singing together, you know so and that so we've been doing 700 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,800 that I. I was good answer. 701 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,160 I I was watching you last night and. 702 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:34,200 How do I look? Spectacular man. 703 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:40,000 But I, I could see that that you, you were operating on, on 704 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,000 instinct You, you weren't reading charts or anything like 705 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,480 that. And it's it's remarkable how the 706 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:56,920 two you locked together and how you suggest really unlikely 707 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:02,600 places to go for Charles and he and he's right there and you 708 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,680 shine a a nice light on the pathway form. 709 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,200 Is that, is that fair to say, Charles? 710 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:19,240 I'm not saying anything. Yeah, well, anyway, you guys 711 00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,600 play. It's real cool when you're 712 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,680 playing together. I guess that's that's what I'm 713 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:25,280 trying to say. Yeah. 714 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,840 All right, I'll stop torturing you. 715 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,640 Thank you. No, it's. 716 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,120 Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's so simple. 717 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,680 When he said that sing together, you know, that's all this other 718 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,320 stuff. It's that's all you need to 719 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,560 know. Just listen and trust each other 720 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:58,280 and feel like he he's trusted me from the beginning and that's 721 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:04,760 what it is. Yeah, well, I I think you exceed 722 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,480 the the trust man. It's really your choice of 723 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,200 notes. Last night was really something 724 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:16,600 because I know you hadn't played those songs and I don't think 725 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,960 any note you played last night was wasteful. 726 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,080 Everything was like it was cool that it was there and it it was 727 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,640 they were they were sophisticated and unlikely 728 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,880 choices that that just gel perfectly. 729 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,880 I'm just saying I dig here and the two you play together a lot. 730 00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:43,480 I enjoy it quite a bit myself. OK. 731 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:44,560 All right. Thank you, man. 732 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:51,240 Bill for sale. Thank you so much. 733 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:52,960 I know you got a rehearsal. You got to get you. 734 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:59,080 Thank you. We're almost wrapped. 735 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,640 I feel like I I should let someone ask, ask a question. 736 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,280 And anyone want to when was the last time? 737 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,720 You worked with Jack long time. I don't remember. 738 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,520 Yeah, but absolutely, yeah. I wouldn't play with someone who 739 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,040 wasn't fun to play with. Yeah. 740 00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:32,080 Yeah, it was great. You know, I I was there was a 741 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,400 guy, Buddy Colette. Do you know him? 742 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,920 He was a mentor to a lot of people. 743 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,240 Charles Mingus first, Eric Dolphy, myself, James Newton, a 744 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:48,640 bunch of folks, you know, and sure, Buddy Claire was a man of 745 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:53,520 color who who broke into the studios because the the white 746 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,640 boys decided it wasn't fair that they didn't have some brothers 747 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,920 around because they'd heard prayers and Mr. Armstrong and 748 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:03,920 all of that, you know, so and they, they, so they, they 749 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,240 changed the system. And buddy Collette was one of 750 00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:09,600 the first guys to get into the studios. 751 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:15,920 And apropos this ring I was telling you about earlier, he 752 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,200 Groucho liked him and they would go for lunch together. 753 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,680 I'm talking about Chico, but he was actually early guy with 754 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,640 Chico. Actually how I went with Chico 755 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,400 was Chico called buddy Collette and said, Eric's left me and 756 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,880 he's gone with Mingus. And you know, you're responsible 757 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:38,160 for all that custody, Eric, Master Colette hooked up Eric 758 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,080 and and I mean, his mentor to Mingus and Eric and all that. 759 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,560 So it's probably inevitable that they would get together. 760 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680 And so he calls that I need some help. 761 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,720 Can you come out and help me for a while? 762 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,280 And buddy said no, because he was in the studios now and 763 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,680 making making big bread, you know, so he said in those days 764 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,080 what it's relative. I know not big bread. 765 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,600 I have a friend whose father was a vice president, president of 766 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,040 Bank of America. And he, he said that there's no 767 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,680 money in jazz music. So you have to know that you 768 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,120 have to do it because you love it, you know. 769 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,000 So anyway, he said, I, I can't come with you, but I've got a 770 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:22,040 guy, you know, so he sent me out there and my what's going on 771 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,680 over there on the right. See, when you play in the band, 772 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,600 you have to be able to hear around the corner and you have 773 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,760 to know, know what's going on, you know, And some of that stuff 774 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,480 is superfluous. And some of his you, you only 775 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,080 want the stuff that's going to be about the magic, you know, 776 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,680 because that's the zone. We like the magic zone. 777 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,240 That other stuff, you know, is if you're not going to go in 778 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,080 there, that's why when you ask Bill's, Bill had to leave. 779 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,120 But he said a beautiful thing one time. 780 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,880 I was doing a interview when he first joined me and we were in 781 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,840 Canada somewhere. He wasn't saying a word, you 782 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:58,880 know, give and take, you know, both of us. 783 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,280 And Bill never said anything. And so at the end, he leaned 784 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:11,880 into the microphone and he said music is good, you know, So 785 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:18,840 that's Bill for sale, man. So anyway, so Chico Chico had me 786 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,240 with him and he had a lot of beautiful arrangements that 787 00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:24,160 Billy Strayhorn had written for him, you know, because, you 788 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,800 know, Chico comes from that that period. 789 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,880 He worked with Lena Horne for many years and stuff like that. 790 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,560 And he was like Cary Grant, yes, you know, the seed. 791 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,400 It's important that you you know, he had the little thing. 792 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:44,960 So and he you know, he he was important guy and at a certain 793 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,600 point I was going to leave and just stay in New York myself and 794 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,720 find my way around. And then he said I'll make you a 795 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,760 music director, stay and let's do what you want to do. 796 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,000 And I said, well, let guitar player you fired is the first 797 00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,760 guy I want to bring back. And that was a good girl. 798 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,400 Go Borzabo. And then I brought I brought 799 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,560 Albert Stinson into that band. And but something I want to tell 800 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,000 you about the ring and and buddy Collette is that Groucho Marx 801 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,000 and he were tight. Groucho liked him out of the pit 802 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,200 band that played on that show. There was a show called Groucho 803 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,400 Marx was on every day, a kind of like little variety show. 804 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:26,920 And so one day they were at lunch, Groucho and buddy 805 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,120 Colette. And so one of the big time 806 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,280 studio guys came over to Groucho and say, Groucho, where do you 807 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,880 keep your money? You know, because those guys had 808 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,400 real money, you know, And Groucho said, well, I keep it in 809 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,800 treasuries. And the guy said, well, see, 810 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,200 it's boring. He said, doesn't pay very well, 811 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,960 does it? Groucho said it does if you have 812 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:54,080 enough of it. So that's, you know. 813 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,560 Meister, thank you so much. This is the most enjoyable hour 814 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:02,760 very generously to come here today. 815 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,200 Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big 816 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,440 Ears Festival. The show is produced by me, Matt 817 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,120 Marowitz. This episode was edited by 818 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,240 Trevor Smith and Delilah. Writer Ashley Capps is the 819 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:30,040 executive and artistic director of Big Ears Festival. 820 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:35,640 For more information, visit bigearsfestival.org.