Welcome back to Big Ears conversations about music.
I'm your host Matt Marowitz. Today we bring you a soulful,
far reaching conversation recorded live at the Blue Note
Lounge and Jackson Terminal during Big Years 2025.
On this episode, we listen in on a rare exchange between Charles
Lloyd, the legendary saxophonist, bandleader,
composer and NEA jazz master whose music has traced A
lifelong journey toward truth and transcendence.
And Don was president of Blue Note Records, who's played a key
role in shaping the most recent and inspired chapter of Charles
ongoing story at Blue Note Records.
It's a conversation filled with wisdom, humor and moments of
revelation. Recollections of Ornette Coleman
and Don Cherry, spiritual encounters with Zakir Hussein,
reflections on early experiences with Scotty Lafaro and Booker
Little, and memories from gigs alongside Howlin' Wolf, B.B.
King and Jimi Hendrix. It's Charles in his element.
Ruminative, poetic, often cosmic, but always grounded in
the truth of lived experience. Don was a long time admirer
turned collaborator. Guides the conversation with
warmth and humility, reflecting on his own listening history
with Charles, music, and what it's meant to witness
discontinued evolution. Here's Charles Lloyd and Don was
live for Big Ears, 2025. Hey everybody, how you doing?
I guess we we can sit. Sit down please.
My scroll. Just as a short introduction
here, personally, this, this this the maestro here is my
hero. I have more Charles Lloyd
records in my collection than than any other artist.
I've been going to see him live since 1967.
When I got the gig at Blue Note. The first call I made was to
his, his, his wife Dorothy, which is when I discovered that
it's, it's probably illegal to call an artist who's under
contract to another label. But fortunately, his, his
contract lapsed at ECM after a long period and he came over to
Blue Note and we're so privileged to to be, to be
participants in this, this stage of, of his career.
He had an incredible last year. I think he made the best record
of his life, if not the best, certainly among the best, which
is a beautiful album. He and he he won the Downbeat
Critics poll for Artist of the Year, Saxophonist of the Year,
Album of the Year, got elected to the Hall of Fame.
Unprecedented. So it's a great honour to be
here today with the mighty Charles Lloyd.
That was an awesome concert last night.
Very moving kind of translate reaction, very, very, very
spiritual thing. And I know it was coming from a
deep place. You, you went, you went back
with Sakir Hussain for a long time.
And I wonder if we could just talk about him for a minute.
Everyone knows he's a master of the instruments, but he had
something else going on besides just mastery of the instrument.
And please tell us about him. Well, he's he's the master of
very much stuff, the title that goes back 5000 years in India
and his father before him. I heard his father with Ravi
Shankar when I was in college at USC in mid 50s.
And then I heard him later with Ali Akbar Khan.
And I'm from Memphis down the road.
And I, when I heard Indian music, I, I, it resonated with
me. I played with Wolf and a lot of
guys, you know, Bobby Blue, Bland, Johnny Ace, Junior
Parker, BB. Those are the kind of gigs we
could have in Memphis. But when I heard his father, Ala
Roka, it touched the chord in me.
So one day we received a call from John McLaughlin saying that
he was playing down at UCLA with Shakti and he wanted us to come
down to hear them. And I hadn't met Zakir before
that. That was what year in the 70s or
I don't know what decades, but but I lose decades now, you
know, and I gained decades. So I'm, I'm not, you know, going
or coming. I'm not attached, you know, it's
it's last night of the play. And they could Boo or applaud.
I'm not going to, I'm going to sing my song.
And it's like kind of like that, you know, So when I heard It's
like you, it was, it was kind of like how Howlin' Wolf affected
me. You know, it was, I know it's
not the same thing, but it was, it was very visceral and very
deep. And he was playing the tableau,
but the Blues was was coming out of there.
And so I could, I was confounded, you know.
And then when we met, he told me that years ago when I was on A
and M and I made a record, Gita and I had Ashish and Pranish
playing tablets and they were Ali Akbar Khan's sons.
And he, when they told him they were going down to LA to record
with me, he said he, he said that should be me.
So it was him. So it took us a long time to get
together. I don't know how you know how
these meetings work, but you know, stay alert and be awake
because you know what you're looking for is looking for you
and make sure that Caesar, none of that stuff comes in and takes
you out. You know, you have to stay in
another key, you know, and modulate.
You have to modulate a lot, you know, but you don't get attached
to the relative either, because this is a bridge and you can't
build a house on a bridge. We're just passing through.
And this song that we sing is from the Eternal Verities.
And Zakir and I spent a quarter of a century together and that
was a beautiful thing. And he was there last evening.
And as was Master Higgins. And Master Higgins, I, I met
when I first went to Cali, I went to a jam session.
I was That will tell you a story about Master Higgins.
Can you forgive me? So.
So Master Higgins told me that one day he and Don Cherry were
living in Watts and they were playing stick ball out in the
street and they heard a sound coming from way away.
But they put their dealings aside and they started running
towards the sound. And when they got to it, it was
a building that was a music store and inside was Ornette
trying out a read. And so that, but they heard that
sound. And I don't know if he bought
the read or you could you could in those days, you could test
the read before you bought it, you know, like now you have to
buy the box. And then I had a friend, Frank
Strozier, in high school. He stopped playing because he
couldn't find any good reads, You know, So it's relative to
how how the, how you work with the situation.
But why am I drifting like this? Oh, you know, it's a circular
motion. You're going to think he's
drifting. And then you realize that the
whole totality of this hour is totally well constructed and
it's just like he plays when we talk about secure.
Yeah, well, we had this deep bond and you know, he this stone
in in this ring, he, he brought it back from India.
I had to have a golden Topaz stone for, you know, you have a
Ayurvedic Dr. and he'll tell you you need stones for this and
that and some, some, some of it worked, you know, and you know,
you don't have to subscribe to all of this stuff.
But anyway, but he said this stone will keep you from
worrying about money. And I said, wow, that's a deep
one because I don't want to ever get hung up in that, you know?
So Zarkia procured the stone. Dorothy had it set in India.
I'm just trying to say he was very loving and very giving.
And in the music that we made together, he loved the saying
that I had have that I never got good enough to quit.
That's why I keep playing. So he liked that very much.
So I'm, I'm still on the path, you know, but I'm, I'm drunk
with music and, and I don't have a job or a place here, you know,
And what I'm saying is that I've been with those other record
places, but not until Dawn came along because he had heard me
when he was 13 or 14. And so he got the hit and that
was the band with Keith Jarrett and Jack T Jeanette.
And that's what my B And he heard us.
And so then one day he was the president of a record company,
you know, And so Nate Shannon said that's this guy who says
that. He said Don Wall said he wants
you to be the first guy on his label.
But I had been over there at ECM for 25 years.
He said my contract ran out, but actually we left.
Well, because I'm the ECM stuff was kind of like hermetically
sealed or something, you know, and I was trying to get away
from so much echo and stuff. And I and so when I first, I
have this friend, Steve Cloud, who takes care of Junior, that's
Keith Jarrett. And he told man, man for So what
are you doing you? So I'm working with Charles
Lloyd. He so I thought he was gone.
He said what he is, but he he's going to come back and and
there's a little guy, Michelle Petrucciani showed up at our
place in Big Sur and he was a little guy about two or three
feet tall and he had glass bones.
He showed up. He was 18.
And I told the folks at Esalen to put him up and make him
comfortable till we came home. I was somewhere else, and so
when I came back, we started playing like that.
And so I heard he had this beautiful gift.
So I took him around the world for a couple of years to get him
started. And that's how that happened.
And yeah, he only kept a body for 36 years in this
incarnation. That's the other thing, you
know, that one man can how to say conquer a million men in
battle, but the general or something, but the the greatest
is the guy who can or gal who can conquer himself or herself,
you know. So check that out and make sure
you be vigilant and watch your watch your proclivities and some
of that stuff that dances through your head.
You don't want to entertain, you know, and you stay on the path
and try to be truthful and loving and and don't go for the
okey doke. I've gotten to see you play a
lot in the last couple weeks. We're in Santa Barbara, played
with completely different group last night and.
We recorded. We recorded for several days in
Santa Barbara. And Don came up.
I was very mood. I think he was wanting to see
how I worked, you know? But you can't see it because
it's not like it's not to be seen.
It's. But he perceived it, though.
Yeah. And he has lots of trust.
Yeah. Well, one of the things I
noticed in the studio is that we'd sit around, we'd play back
what was happening the day before and you were just you
were kind of waiting for everything to align.
And then when you were in in the zone, I guess you went out there
and, you know, played a whole albums worth of music without
coming back in. When I saw you last night, there
was you don't really have the luxury in a concert where you
know the Teamsters are going to kick you out at 9:30 and that
kind of thing. How how do you get you were you
were there from the the first note?
How do you prepare for that when it's got to happen at a certain
time? The whole of life is a
preparation, but Dorothy's always yelling, calling to get
me off the stage because I don't know what time it is.
You know, the now is is pregnant with elixirs and when you go in
there, you don't need to be messing with the temporal stuff,
you know, And she always is sitting on the side of the
stage. Dorothy Darr, my better half.
That was her visuals last night that you see them.
Dorothy, where are you? Where are you, Dorothy?
Dorothy, where are you? Where are you?
Stand up. Please stand up.
Dorothy Darr. Come on, Dorothy.
Please. She won't.
Yeah, she, she's been taking care of me for this lifetime and
many lifetimes before. So she came to get me in like
that. So, but I can tell, you know, I
can tell. And I got mileage, but it
doesn't impede the beginner's mind.
So that's a good combination to adapt.
You know, you could, you could go a long way with that.
You don't have to. And then, Caesar, none of that
stuff will get in your way because that's another kind of
frequency, you know? And you, you keep your stuff.
Well, like that. Yeah, it won't hurt.
Did it And stuff. Yeah.
What what do you do to to actually prepare?
Is there? The whole of life is
preparation. The whole of life is
preparation. So you were you were ready.
You've been ready. Yeah. 80 years for that concert
lesson. I I get it.
Well, I know you're an incredible bandleader.
And I can it's really evident when I hit like Jason is such a
good example. He sounds different when he
plays with you and and you bring out something brand new in him.
But you do it. You've you've done a talking.
About Jason Moran. Jason Moran, Yeah.
What do you think makes a good band leader?
You, you worked with Chico Hamilton.
You worked with Cannonball Adderly.
You you some great band leaders, but I think you're a master
bandleader. I don't know about any of that.
When I was playing with Chico, I replaced Eric Dolphy, who who
stayed in who stayed in New York to play with Mingus.
And so when I joined Chico, we were playing one of the early
gigs was well, we were back East, but we were playing San
Francisco. I remember and and I had brought
Gabor into the band and Albert Stencils a wonderful basis.
I don't know if any of you have the ability to check him out,
but he was amazing. And there's some guy, don't
remember his name, a bass player who played with Bill Evans.
And he said that at the time, you know, when Scotty left town
early. Scotty was my best friend in
California. You know what he did?
One day I was, I was going to see, and he had just come out
from where do you come from? Geneva, NY, upstate New York,
somewhere he lived. He played clarinet before he
played bass. So I don't know, somehow we, we
just synced up and he came over to my house one day and he
brought Bird solo and just friends.
He had copied it off the record and brought it, you know, as an
offering or something like that. You know what, when we were in
San Francisco play at the Jazz Workshop, I used to walk around
North Beach and in that whole area and there was a lot of
designer shops, you know, furniture and different stuff.
It was, you know, avant-garde or something like that.
And so I looked in this one window and there was this Eames
chair, you know that with the Ottoman.
And so I didn't know what it was at the time.
It was early Ray and Charles Eames probably just made that
thing somewhere in the early for late 40s or early 50s.
So I go in the shop. So I say to this woman, pardon
me man, but that beautiful chair in the window, what's the cost
of it? And she said, it's $500.
And I said, wow, I said it's very expensive.
She said, oh, it's all relative. Young men come back when you're
ready, you know, because, you know, they're like several
thousand now, you know, but the inflation or whatever, how they
mess, move stuff around. But that was my research, you
know, just walking around the city and and checking things
out. I have several of those chairs
now. That's what I was thinking of.
Let's let's talk about Scott Lafaro.
And you met, You mentioned you're, you're.
Yeah. Good.
See, we got at least one bass player over there.
He changed the game for everybody who came after him.
Yeah, he was. Well, it was a heady time.
I it's 1956. I was running out of Memphis.
I was playing with Willie Mitchell's band over in West
Memphis in one of those white dance halls.
And those girls liked us, you know, And so we would dance
sometimes. And one day my mother got a call
from the police station. My stepfather sold car cars and
guys he would give him AI don't know commissioners, you know
this guy bring somebody to buy a car and he.
And give him some bread too, you know.
So anyway, this guy called from the police station.
He said, listen, they just had a meeting and they're going to
arrest Willie's band tomorrow night.
And your son is is up on the board, his name.
So just wanted to alert you that when they get ready to go to
work tomorrow night at the meeting place, they will be
arrested. So my mother said no, they
won't. So she put me on a train the
next morning for Cali, you know, and my stepdad also was a
Pullman Porter. So he put me in drawing room A
and I got used to that. You know, I kind of, I liked
simple life, you know, and seclusion and like that.
So but so I got the Cali and then I was walking around
campus. It was summertime and check this
out. They had a thing.
They were, the fraternities were writing to us trying to solicit
for me to come and stay at their houses during the summer because
they didn't have any tenants, you know, So they were getting
some extra income. So when I got to the dorm, I
told some of the guys that the fraternities were trying to get
me to come. And they all laughed, you know,
like, you know, they invited you, but they hadn't seen you.
So it, it wouldn't have, it wouldn't have worked, you know,
something like that. I didn't.
And, and in the dorm, they put me with a Hawaiian because there
was no other brothers there during the summertime.
And this Hawaiian guy, Ken Pertle was, was from Punahou
High School in, in Honolulu. And he was a very special guy,
but he went and joined the fraternities that it wouldn't
have taken me. And somehow he took himself out
prematurely early in life. And I think that somehow that
thing didn't work for him either.
Being Hawaii, Hawaiian, you know, isn't that weird.
So don't, don't practice. That program is not not healthy
for you or the planet, you know What are you talking about?
We were, we were sort of heading Scotty.
Yeah.
Scotty. So, yeah.
So, yeah, there you go. I I was walking off campus and I
saw this sign on on Vermont at a club called the Stadium Club.
It said jam session on Sunday afternoon.
So, you know, I've been there with Phineas Newborn was my
mentor and George Coleman and these guys, you know, we they
were elders, but they had prepared us.
You know, George Coleman's like a like a Santini, like one of
those drill sergeants. You know, he wants to play
Cherokee and B flat, but then let's play it in E and let's
play it in A, you know, so you have to have your your abilities
up to speed, you know, and so he, he was like that.
And so it was, it was a good training and, and but Phineas
heard me at an amateur show and I won first prize and I went
into the wings and he said you need lessons bad.
So he took me around the corner on Beale Street to Urban Reason.
A wonderful Alto player. Anyway, so so I go to this jam
session and Ornette was there. He had a interesting outfit that
he homemade that he had made. It was suspenders and some
different kind of stuff, you know, and there was no currency
yet, you know, so he had to make it himself.
And so he got. He was on the bandstand.
I'm getting to Scotty. Yeah, I'm not.
I just want to show you something.
So when he when he was on the bandstand, they invited him off
the bandstand. And so I was watching all of
this, you know, because I'm waiting in line to play.
But they didn't, you know, they, they didn't know me or I didn't
have any, you know, credibility. And how could I?
I'm 18 years old, you know, what's he going to bring to the
stand, you know? And so Ornette left the stage.
And so at the end of the evening, I finally played and
Ornette came up to me and said, you know, you can really play
the saxophone, he said, but that doesn't have much to do with
music, you know? And so right there, you got my
attention, you know, and, and we became real tight because he was
about 8 years my senior. I was 28, he was about 26.
Oh, this one other thing I have to tell you about Scott before
we get to Scotty. Ornette had a Studebaker car.
I don't know if you ever seen those this way before your time,
but you can't tell the front from the back sometimes, the way
they're constructed. And we were at a jam session one
day at Lacris Club over by Wrigley Field in LA.
They had one too, and we were so high from the music that Ornette
backed over his his horn as we were leaving.
Because you know, when you reel high, you don't know which,
which you know, directions and stuff is not, not important to
the mission, you know, so, so, so he drove over his Alto and
that's how he got a plastic Alto.
Like they were very inexpensive, a real Selma.
It's like the team's share. They were about $500 in those
days. They're now, you know, several
$1000. So anyway, like that, but we
became very, very tight. One day he walks over to my
house and he takes out his horn. Because we had we had not
arguments, but George Coleman, you know, who's real, real
strict taskmaster, you know, and that was loose with the with
that kind of stuff. You know, he had his own
cosmology actually. So anyway, so he takes out his
horn. Any saxophone players here?
No. Oh, probably 11 SEC two.
Wow. Anyway, I'll be quick then.
So he takes out his horn. He plays the lowest note and
then he plays the highest note and then he chromatically brings
them into to a meeting. And it's like this.
What? And he brought the whole
universe and it was like in a nanosecond.
So I didn't have any more arguments.
I bowed down, took the dust of his feet and I said, OK, OK,
Master, you, you got it, you know, and, and we'd never argued
anymore after that. We did have long conversations
about 5 hour conversations on the phone.
Dorothy, what are you talking about?
Well, he would say, he would tell me that a chord doesn't
resolve. You know, he had different
cosmologies and chords don't resolve, you know, you know.
So in in walk Scotty at some point and I met him at a jam
session and there were a lot of jam sessions in LA in those
days, mid 50s, late late 50s. And he, he looked like Steve
McQueen, if you can picture that.
And he, he had, he could drive like that too.
He, you know, he could, he would see it, you know, he would, you
know, point and shoot. He would see a hole and he would
just go through it, you know, and we like fast cars and stuff
like that. So we, we had a lot of stuff in
common, you know, but that stuff you're talking about his
playing, his ability to play horn, like into, to also have a
kind of celestial swing. He could also anchor stuff and
lift it up and move it around. So when Scotty left town, I'll
come back more about Scotty. But there was some guy, Chuck
Israel, that was his name. He, he went with Bill for a
time, but he said he got the gig.
But he knew the guy that Bill should have hired was Albert
Stinson. But Bill didn't know about
Albert Stinson. So he, he was covetous of the
gig. So he got the gig, you know,
somehow, but and, and Albert Stinson left town real early in
his 20s. You know, 27 is about the limit
for a lot of people in in a certain zone, you know, and Jimi
Hendrix said Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, I saw a few days just
before she left. I used to play a lot of gigs
with those people anyway, Scotty, he was very what's the
word? He was always doing this with
his hair and then he, he has some steel strings.
I don't know what that means, you know, but and he was rubbing
juice from his hair on his strings and he was he, he could
operate, you know, and we love playing together and we played
play a lot of gigs together and we drove a lot of cars and stuff
like that together. And we, we, he was a beautiful
soul, just beautiful Colorado very what's the word in the now
and not Future Past kind of stuff was he interested in?
And, and we, we operated like that.
And my best friend in high school was Booker little anybody
know of him? Now there's a guy, there's a say
now there's a real sage. When I first got to New York, I
stayed with him because I, I was staying at the Alvin Hotel where
Lester Young had stayed and left town from.
And, and Booker, Providence is not another beautiful thing that
can happen for you. You just stay alert, you know.
And so that particular night, Monday night, I check into the
Alvin Hotel and I and Bert across the street was Cataconic,
it was Birdland. And I went downstairs and I
said, Booker, I'm here. And he said, where are you
staying? I said, I'm staying at the
Alvin. He said, no, you're not, go pack
your bags. You're coming home with me.
And he lived up on E 92nd St. between Lex and 3rd and he took
me home with him and he began to dismantle me because I was ready
to jump into the fast lane. And he said no, it's about
character, you know. So he, he got my attention, but
he left at 23 I believe, you know, And I stayed with him for
about 6 months. He and his lady Mattel, they had
a beautiful little flat up there for like walk up in a sort of
Polish neighborhood. And he would, we would play and
then he would talk to me about intervals.
And, and this is good for musicians that you want to mix
the sweet and sour sauce. You know, you want to, you want
to learn how to mix the, the dissonance with the consonants
so you're not always playing some little looney tune kind of
stuff. You know, you want your stuff to
have some, some not spice a bite, but, but you, you want to
find how intervals work. And that's what Ornette was
really good about sound. You know, you want to understand
sound and and then it's good to know Harmony and, and not just
Walter Piston, but you can find ways.
Well, now schools have all that stuff, but it's not the same
thing as as making your own cake.
You know, you'll get it in a box.
Now it's not the same thing if you make it yourself.
You know, with the ingredients you can you can find some hidden
treasures and stuff like that. And you don't need to use
ingredients that are not healthy for you.
Yeah, longevity, you know, the creator takes care of that.
But the doctors, you know, they can take care of you and stuff.
But they say, well, this guy's not going to make it or this.
But, you know, the creator laughs and said, you know, I'm
in charge of this, you know. So it's like that.
Scotty was a beautiful soul. He left too soon.
He left in a car accident in upstate New York.
He played Newport with Stan Getz, I was told, and he was
driving back to the city or something and it didn't work.
So you have a specific question about him?
I could tell you maybe. I mean, I think you actually
addressed it, just the lyricism that he brought to bass playing
beds because he was a horn player first.
Yeah, he was clearing up. He left Cali.
They all left before I finished college.
I finished college. And you don't have to stay here.
Get out of here. I don't.
I don't need you to stay in here.
So no, it's good. So you, you only want to be you,
to be where you're supposed to be.
You know that? Don't.
Don't force it and don't try to do funny stuff.
I want to ask about something else that you.
Mentioned. Sure.
I I mean, I, I see some people my age here, but I don't know if
everybody understands that I. Don't see anybody my age.
What's the problem here? Where, where?
Where are those young guys and gals?
Yeah, OK. But Charles.
Like years before Miles Davis did it.
Charles was was really the first, you know what you call
jazz musician to embrace what was going on at the Fillmore and
play it at the Fillmore and play shows, be on a bill with the
Grateful Dead and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band.
How how did you end up doing that?
Was that a deliberate course you set or?
No, it's the same thing I'm talking to you about.
Stay alert. You know, we were playing after
we played Monterey. There's a wonderful engineer,
Wally Hyder, who recorded a lot of people.
And so I came out the stage and in those days I had, you know,
Owsley and all that kind of stuff was already available to
us, you know, And so I came out the stage and and Wallace said,
Charles, Charles, I got it. I got it, I got it.
I said, got what Wally, you know, is I got this.
I got the set. I didn't know we were being
recorded, but I was on Atlantic and I guess they had a bee in
their bonnet about sending this guy to record us.
So that was the record Forest flower.
And so he, he's, they knew somehow they knew that that the
elixirs were there, you know, and for me.
Did you just tell us that that you were that you dropped acid
when you cut forest flower or? Not at the time, but we were not
during the show. Not during the show, no.
Just checking. Just checking.
Oh, that's, see, that's why I was saying about Booker.
Booker told me to stay out of the fast lane.
But after he left, you know, it's, it's a lot of lot of
traffic out there. And I was a young man.
I was a young man and I, I, I, I knew he was right.
But I, you know, I just wasn't ready to, you know, and I had to
do that research, you know, and it, it, it impeded progress in
certain kind of ways because at first it, it reduced inhibitions
and such. But after a while it impeded
creativity, you know, because you need your stash or
something, you know, and that man.
And so I can now I can go cross borders and stuff, you know, and
I'm, I'm, I'm still high and they don't, you know, there's
nothing on me of nothing, nothing.
See, that's the thing. That's here's the thing about
that about drugs. They can put you up on the up on
the rooftop. But the problem is that you, you
fall, you come down all the time.
But spiritual life is interesting because you have to
build the steps. And then when you build the
steps, you can go go back and forth, you know, and you don't
have to have any, any product or anything to, to deal with any of
that. And so I realized it's, it's
kind of like when I was a young man, the old guy said junior,
because I'd heard bird, you know, and the old guys knew
Johnny Hodges and all that. And they said, junior, all those
notes don't mean anything if you don't have a beautiful sound.
So I picked up on that and I started practicing long tones.
You know what long tones are right?
You know, you start, you know, what do you call that?
You crescendo up to 8 counts and then back down on the other side
without wavering and stuff such, you know, so you, it's kind of
like mindful mindfulness in a way.
You know, it's a Buddhist concept, but you, you don't know
what that is at that time. But in listening to the sound,
you can attenuate and you can also get the stuff out of there
that's superfluous and that you don't need.
And then the beauty is that you're left with pure, a pure
sound that that can take you across to the other shore.
And that's what we're aiming for the other shore, because this
furniture value and stuff is not going to be around all the time.
You know, you think that this mileage up here is sitting
before you. It's doesn't impede anything
because I saw what was happening, you know, like that.
So the the what was your question?
Well, I derailed you. I, I, I, I got hung up on
Owsley. But what?
What we were talking about Wally Hyder and.
Well, Owsley used to come around his he had a his grandfather was
the governor of Kentucky. Are you aware of that?
I. Did not know that, yeah.
Well, he used to bring a lot 1 time Jimi Hendrix and I were
over to dad's house over in Novato and we were kind of under
a table and, and I was, they had given a given, given us a
handful of stuff, pills, you know, the sunshine and like
that. And so I took a couple of them.
But Jimmy just took the whole batch, you know, But it didn't
affect him, you know, I mean, as I could see, you know, he, he
was, you know, so and he knew he played down the street from me
in the Village, you know, and I used to hear, you know, coming
out of there on my way to my gigs and stuff.
After Monterey, we went to a club in San Francisco called the
Matador, El Matador and those across the street from the Jazz
workshop. And so happens counterball was
back in there and they would come over to see us and they
realized that what I was doing was right for me anyway, you
know, I couldn't, couldn't stay there too long.
But there was a guy named Morgan Upton.
There was a group up the street, you know, Belushi and those
guys, Second City. Well, this group was called the
Committee Theatre. And they were like creative
comedian guys. And they, they used to come in
after their show would finish. They had their own theatre up up
the street on Broadway in North Beach.
They would come in and they were getting high on our music.
They dug, they dug what we were doing.
And so Morgan Upton said, there's this place called the
Fillmore and you know, 2000 kids are sitting on the floor and and
you, I'd like for them to hear you.
I said, well, who plays there? He said muddy water.
I said, OK, McKinley, Morgan Field Block.
I said I know those guys, you know, because I'd come through
that circuit. And so he got me invited over to
play for half an hour one Sunday afternoon, an hour and a half.
They wouldn't let us off the stage.
And Santana was up front saying free the people, Charles and
stuff like that. So it was like, it was like
something happened, you know. And so then that circuit invited
me, Chuck, Chuck Helms, the family dog and all of that
stuff. And Janis Joplin was a big fan.
There wasn't. There was an interesting guy,
John Chipolino. You ever heard of him?
He played with Quicksilver. But he was very knowledgeable
about jazz early, all that stuff.
He is anyway, he he's on one of my records during my out period.
What record was that party? What record was that?
Warm waters. He's on warm waters, you know,
and there's another moon man that's kind of out there too.
Check that out sometime. Got to hear those.
If you don't know these records, find them.
They're up, they're up streaming, they'll.
Find these. Find these that Justin has over
there. The one the the blue node ones.
Yeah, I want to get my car out of the shop, you know?
Yeah, there is. Just look over there to the
right. Yeah, to the right.
See those, Rick, get those because they didn't get my car
to shop and get the stuff and like that.
Yeah. Yeah, My car is a 1992 Wabens,
the 500 E Yeah. So I'm not I'm not buying the
new model. You know, it's the best car they
made. And so I stick with that.
Yeah, Porsche did the transmission and and what Benz
they made them made the mechanics.
Yeah and I heard one of those Mercedes guys engineers, it's
the best car they ever made, you know, so I wasn't asleep at the
wheel. You know, I just, I just
couldn't do Ferraris and stuff anymore because they'd be
stopped a lot, you know, and also, you know, my when, when
windows were tinted and stuff like that, like my glasses, you
know. So anyway, so be it.
What do you look for in musicians?
Because you, because you cast your bands.
What I'm looking for is looking for me.
I already told you that. I knew that.
You know who your people are, You know, You know what?
What? My father was a football coach
and he was a leader of men. So maybe some genealogy and
stuff like that, you know, I don't know.
Where did you meet Bill? I'm still meeting Bill.
I don't know him thoroughly yet, but it's a it's a journey.
And Bill can tell you better than me.
He he met me before I met him. Come up here, Bill.
No, you, you're the narrator. Give him that back.
Give him that. Give him.
How'd you meet Charles? So I, I bought, I got my first,
the first downbeat magazine I got, I saw Charles on the cover
and I was like, wow, this guy. I thought, I just thought you
look cool, right? So no, you were a beautiful man.
And my best friend was a tenor saxophone player.
And not quite, no. Oh man.
And so me and my friend went to see you play.
It was January. I have the exact date somewhere
because it's in Paul Motion's date book in Denver at the
Denver Auditorium Theatre, January of 1969.
And it was, I guess Jack had just left the band or something.
Paul Motion was playing drums and Ron McClure was playing bass
and Keith Jarrett was playing piano.
And so that was one of the first, my first experiences
hearing music of, you know, from that place.
And how about that? So then, you know, my
imagination just kept. I just kept thinking about it
and at some point we met in Europe somewhere and some more
years go by and he asked me to play and I went.
We didn't have a rehearsal. All we did was it was in
Montreal, he said. We'll come up to my come up to
my hotel room a knock on the door and he's come on in and he
said I'm looking forward to singing with you tonight and
that was that was a rehearsal. So and that's what it is, right,
Like singing together, you know so and that so we've been doing
that I. I was good answer.
I I was watching you last night and.
How do I look? Spectacular man.
But I, I could see that that you, you were operating on, on
instinct You, you weren't reading charts or anything like
that. And it's it's remarkable how the
two you locked together and how you suggest really unlikely
places to go for Charles and he and he's right there and you
shine a a nice light on the pathway form.
Is that, is that fair to say, Charles?
I'm not saying anything. Yeah, well, anyway, you guys
play. It's real cool when you're
playing together. I guess that's that's what I'm
trying to say. Yeah.
All right, I'll stop torturing you.
Thank you. No, it's.
Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's so simple.
When he said that sing together, you know, that's all this other
stuff. It's that's all you need to
know. Just listen and trust each other
and feel like he he's trusted me from the beginning and that's
what it is. Yeah, well, I I think you exceed
the the trust man. It's really your choice of
notes. Last night was really something
because I know you hadn't played those songs and I don't think
any note you played last night was wasteful.
Everything was like it was cool that it was there and it it was
they were they were sophisticated and unlikely
choices that that just gel perfectly.
I'm just saying I dig here and the two you play together a lot.
I enjoy it quite a bit myself. OK.
All right. Thank you, man.
Bill for sale. Thank you so much.
I know you got a rehearsal. You got to get you.
Thank you. We're almost wrapped.
I feel like I I should let someone ask, ask a question.
And anyone want to when was the last time?
You worked with Jack long time. I don't remember.
Yeah, but absolutely, yeah. I wouldn't play with someone who
wasn't fun to play with. Yeah.
Yeah, it was great. You know, I I was there was a
guy, Buddy Colette. Do you know him?
He was a mentor to a lot of people.
Charles Mingus first, Eric Dolphy, myself, James Newton, a
bunch of folks, you know, and sure, Buddy Claire was a man of
color who who broke into the studios because the the white
boys decided it wasn't fair that they didn't have some brothers
around because they'd heard prayers and Mr. Armstrong and
all of that, you know, so and they, they, so they, they
changed the system. And buddy Collette was one of
the first guys to get into the studios.
And apropos this ring I was telling you about earlier, he
Groucho liked him and they would go for lunch together.
I'm talking about Chico, but he was actually early guy with
Chico. Actually how I went with Chico
was Chico called buddy Collette and said, Eric's left me and
he's gone with Mingus. And you know, you're responsible
for all that custody, Eric, Master Colette hooked up Eric
and and I mean, his mentor to Mingus and Eric and all that.
So it's probably inevitable that they would get together.
And so he calls that I need some help.
Can you come out and help me for a while?
And buddy said no, because he was in the studios now and
making making big bread, you know, so he said in those days
what it's relative. I know not big bread.
I have a friend whose father was a vice president, president of
Bank of America. And he, he said that there's no
money in jazz music. So you have to know that you
have to do it because you love it, you know.
So anyway, he said, I, I can't come with you, but I've got a
guy, you know, so he sent me out there and my what's going on
over there on the right. See, when you play in the band,
you have to be able to hear around the corner and you have
to know, know what's going on, you know, And some of that stuff
is superfluous. And some of his you, you only
want the stuff that's going to be about the magic, you know,
because that's the zone. We like the magic zone.
That other stuff, you know, is if you're not going to go in
there, that's why when you ask Bill's, Bill had to leave.
But he said a beautiful thing one time.
I was doing a interview when he first joined me and we were in
Canada somewhere. He wasn't saying a word, you
know, give and take, you know, both of us.
And Bill never said anything. And so at the end, he leaned
into the microphone and he said music is good, you know, So
that's Bill for sale, man. So anyway, so Chico Chico had me
with him and he had a lot of beautiful arrangements that
Billy Strayhorn had written for him, you know, because, you
know, Chico comes from that that period.
He worked with Lena Horne for many years and stuff like that.
And he was like Cary Grant, yes, you know, the seed.
It's important that you you know, he had the little thing.
So and he you know, he he was important guy and at a certain
point I was going to leave and just stay in New York myself and
find my way around. And then he said I'll make you a
music director, stay and let's do what you want to do.
And I said, well, let guitar player you fired is the first
guy I want to bring back. And that was a good girl.
Go Borzabo. And then I brought I brought
Albert Stinson into that band. And but something I want to tell
you about the ring and and buddy Collette is that Groucho Marx
and he were tight. Groucho liked him out of the pit
band that played on that show. There was a show called Groucho
Marx was on every day, a kind of like little variety show.
And so one day they were at lunch, Groucho and buddy
Colette. And so one of the big time
studio guys came over to Groucho and say, Groucho, where do you
keep your money? You know, because those guys had
real money, you know, And Groucho said, well, I keep it in
treasuries. And the guy said, well, see,
it's boring. He said, doesn't pay very well,
does it? Groucho said it does if you have
enough of it. So that's, you know.
Meister, thank you so much. This is the most enjoyable hour
very generously to come here today.
Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big
Ears Festival. The show is produced by me, Matt
Marowitz. This episode was edited by
Trevor Smith and Delilah. Writer Ashley Capps is the
executive and artistic director of Big Ears Festival.
For more information, visit bigearsfestival.org.