1 00:00:15,830 --> 00:00:18,630 Welcome to Big Ears conversations about music. 2 00:00:18,750 --> 00:00:23,030 I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. Today's episode is a special 3 00:00:23,030 --> 00:00:25,550 one. Any long time Big Ears patron 4 00:00:25,550 --> 00:00:28,470 has come to expect an almost annual presence from the 5 00:00:28,470 --> 00:00:32,070 acclaimed guitarist, composer and activist Mark Rebo. 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,600 Here he speaks with the veteran culture journalist and music 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,320 critic Larry Blumenfeld. A frequent contributor to the 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,480 Wall Street Journal, The Nation and editor of Chamber Music 9 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:48,480 magazine, Mark Rebo has always gone his own way. 10 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:53,360 Sometimes tender and acoustic, other times loud and aggressive, 11 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Rebo's singular sound has earned him an army of fans and 12 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,720 followers. Having recorded over 25 albums 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,080 as a leader and appeared on an estimated 600 more as a sideman, 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,600 Rebos helped define Tom Waits weird Americano on Rain Dogs. 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,560 He crafted a more polished Americana for Alison Krauss and 16 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,040 Robert Plant on their Grammy winning Raising Sand. 17 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,080 He's played with Elvis Costello, Henry Grimes, John Zorn, Wilson 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,560 Pickett, Marianne Faithful, the list goes on. 19 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,280 In this conversation, Mark talks about his early experiences on 20 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,200 the music scene and his unique evolution as an artist. 21 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,800 He tells us about the 2 bands and solo project he's bringing 22 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,160 to Big Ears and we dig into his activism, specifically the 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,240 challenges musicians face in the age of streaming and AI, and 24 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,000 what it means to create and organize in these ever changing 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,040 times. Let's listen in. 26 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,160 Mark and that wonderful book of yours, Unstrung Rants and 27 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,200 Stories of a Noise Guitarist. I know near the beginning you 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,040 talked about being a New Jersey kid, trying to make a name for 29 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,280 yourself in New York and playing with, let's say, organist Jack 30 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,280 Mcduff. And while those gigs were great, 31 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,120 you realized you needed to strike out on your own path. 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,640 And can you talk a little bit about what that realization and 33 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:25,080 what that time was like? Well, when I first got to New 34 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,840 York, I mean, basically all I want to do is play. 35 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,480 And then I modified that a little bit to be all I wanted to 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,360 do was play anything that wasn't a wedding or bar mitzvah after 37 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:44,720 my experiences that were common to young musicians coming to New 38 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,280 York when I did, which was the late 70s. 39 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:53,440 So it kind of happened or this, I didn't think of making a name 40 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,080 for myself per SE, but I, I did think of getting some gigs for 41 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,840 myself. I was, I was working with 42 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,400 whoever I possibly could. You know, everything from 43 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,920 terrible gigs on Bleecker St., you know, to I, I managed to 44 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:13,240 find myself some solo gigs, playing solo acoustic guitar at 45 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,800 restaurants, jazz and classical stuff, you know, whatever I 46 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,280 possibly could to pay the rent. But then I connected with some 47 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,560 players who were in bands that were playing in, you know, the 48 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:33,040 kind of new club land, you know, CBGB's, Hurrahs, places like 49 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,800 that. There was club called Tramps 50 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,720 Snafu. These were the places. 51 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,360 So I started playing with a band called Brandon the Real Tones, 52 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,480 which later became the Real Tones, which later became the 53 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,240 Uptown Horns. Did some gigs with them. 54 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,320 They started backing up name artist from Stax Vault. 55 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,280 We started getting reviewed in in the In the Times and 56 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,400 elsewhere whenever we'd backup, you know, Syl Johnson, Solomon 57 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,160 Burke, Carla Thomas, Rufus Thomas. 58 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,080 And so, you know, that led to other things. 59 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,800 One of those other things not far down the road from that 60 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,280 probably being lounge lizards. Yeah, that's right. 61 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,800 Where there was I around that time? 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,240 Did you sense that? Hey, here's the scene where I 63 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,680 can actually find myself. Have enough freedom to find 64 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,400 myself. Yeah, I thought, you know, I 65 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,080 was. I was happy because it gave the 66 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,640 lizards right from the beginning. 67 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,920 Gave me an opportunity to stretch out in some ways. 68 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,640 I'd heard in the free jazz scene and and and loft scene, but I 69 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,520 hadn't really gotten a chance to do live in front of audiences. 70 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:48,520 So in other words, I could solo without chord changes, without 71 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,080 tonality sometimes, you know, I could try try a lot of stuff 72 00:04:52,080 --> 00:05:26,480 out. The. 73 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,920 When you were not even a teenager, maybe you encountered 74 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,640 your first real mentor, a Haitian guitarist. 75 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,280 Can you talk a little bit about what you gained from that 76 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:42,120 experience? Well, the Haitian guitarist in 77 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:48,400 question, guitarist, composer was Franz Caseus CASSEUS. 78 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,680 Well, I mean, I learned to play from Franz. 79 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,920 You know, he taught me where you put your fingers. 80 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,840 But Franz was a classical guitarist and composer. 81 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:03,280 And so, you know, what I learned very initially was how to play, 82 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,920 you know, the student basics of the classical guitar repertoire. 83 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,320 And I was immediately applying this knowledge to playing in 84 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,160 garage bands. You know, like, I, I think not 85 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,160 probably not even a year in. I started taking these lessons 86 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,640 when I was 11. So maybe, yeah, maybe a a a year 87 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,320 or two later, I was, you know, already playing without a pick a 88 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,600 leg, you know, I got some electric guitar and me and my 89 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,000 and it was this was Jersey. So we actually had garages and 90 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000 we actually had a band in one of my friends garages. 91 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,280 So yeah, we I was applying it to playing garage bands. 92 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:49,000 And so for a while it seemed to me that, well, you know, Franz 93 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:52,200 taught me how to play, but we went different directions. 94 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,640 But much later on, I, I realized that I got a sensibility from 95 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Franz. I mean, he was a classical 96 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,640 guitarist, but a a Haitian classical guitarist, which you 97 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,840 know, he he in his playing and I, I recommend his own 98 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,960 recordings of his tunes very high, very highly, and 99 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,080 particularly Haitian dances Haitian Suite, which is on 100 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,680 Smithsonian folkways. You can hear that even when he 101 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,120 approaches what would be otherwise a straight ahead 102 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,240 classical composition. You can hear the rhythmic 103 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,160 tension in it that's peculiarly Haitian. 104 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,960 If it's in four, you feel the three pushing against that. 105 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,280 If it's in three, you feel four or sometimes A5, you know, dad 106 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,240 to dad to dad becomes Dad, Dad that that, you know, it's that 107 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,240 Haitian thing. Yeah, and, you know, you telling 108 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,520 me about him drew me to his music and something I felt like 109 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:56,000 connected them was this feeling of tenderness and intensity at 110 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,920 but not as separate poles and which has always struck me about 111 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,920 your work. So now talks, talking now 112 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:12,320 decades later from where we were starting, and some, you know, 20 113 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,480 some odd albums of your own and so many others with so many 114 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,800 other people, I moved to ask why so many different kinds of 115 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,640 bands? Well, you know, Papa's got to 116 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,200 pay the rent, you know, but, but. 117 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,760 But I know it's not just that. No, you know, you're right. 118 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,280 I guess I'm, I don't know, I guess I'm nervous or, you know, 119 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,559 like I'm, I'm always like looking to, if I like something, 120 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,120 I don't just like it, but I'm, I'm looking to swim back up the 121 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,520 river to see where it came from. You know who who are the 122 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,360 influences where they get that stuff, You know, So I've checked 123 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,600 out a lot of different styles, a lot of different, you know, a 124 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,000 lot of different ways of playing. 125 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,520 But I don't focus on the differences between these. 126 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,360 It's not like I'm out there trying to be a consumer of 127 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,480 genres. You know, it's more like all the 128 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,080 stuff I like has a certain intensity. 129 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:14,840 I mean, you mentioned the music of Brother Jack Mcduff or, you 130 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,400 know, whether it's whether it's that or the OR a Haitian rah rah 131 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,720 ban or. Or the Cuban trace player 132 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,000 Arsenio. Rodriguez or, or you know, or 133 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,000 listening to Richard Hale and Robert Quine playing at CBG BS, 134 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,120 you know, it was all a kind of punk rock to me. 135 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,160 You know, I like, I like the stuff that like really goes over 136 00:09:37,160 --> 00:10:10,680 the top, you know? Now we're having this 137 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:14,160 conversation along the lines of many we've had, but also in 138 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,400 connection with the Big Ears Festival. 139 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:21,760 And I remember running into you in the street two years ago when 140 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,120 you were packing up, ready to leave. 141 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,560 And I think we were talking about how, hey, the two of us 142 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:32,680 are world weary, maybe somewhat jaded New Yorkers, but that big 143 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:36,920 Year's experience sort of relieves us of a lot of that 144 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:37,720 baggage. And. 145 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:38,280 Yeah. Yeah. 146 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:39,480 Why is that for you? What? 147 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,480 What is? Well, you know, I mean, you 148 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,320 know, just first of all, I mean, it's a great festival and I, I 149 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,600 meet and hang out with more of my friends in Knoxville, TN than 150 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,760 I ever do in New York. When I'm in New York, you know, 151 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,160 everybody's like busy or, or, you know, far away, you know, I 152 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,680 mean, maybe we look close to Fort Lee, NJ from far away, but 153 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,040 I'm a lazy guy, you know what I mean? 154 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,240 So I have friends who live in that area that I might not see 155 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,800 for six, six months to a year, you know, but there, everybody's 156 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,480 in it's the, it's the, it's the community we imagine ourselves 157 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,000 living in, in our minds, you know, is actually present down 158 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,680 there. Yeah, I I agree. 159 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,200 And you know, another thing is of course that you get that 160 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,400 rarity of, or I get that rarity of hearing musicians I admire 161 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,360 playing in they're very different contexts or the a 162 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,120 range of their contexts, which only comes around once a decade 163 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,440 or so, usually for musicians. So I know at the 2026 big years 164 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,000 festival that will manifest in a few different groups. 165 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,840 And Shrek is a group that you first formed, oh, 30 years ago. 166 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,720 And I know a big ears you'll have one of the original 167 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,760 members, Sebastian Steinberg, as well as Mary Halverson and two 168 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,600 great drummers, Chad Taylor and Chad Smith. 169 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,600 What was the inspiration for that group lo those many years 170 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,120 ago? Well, the inspiration for the 171 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,720 group many years ago was just I was trying to rock the house. 172 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,000 It was influenced by a couple of things. 173 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,200 I mean, that group was related to a group I had called the 174 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,160 Brutal Nativisms. And that other title, The Brutal 175 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,760 Nativisms kind of describes the approach I was listening to a 176 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,800 lot of. Well, I was listening to Eiler, 177 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,920 I was listening to Yugoslavian, specifically Croatian wedding 178 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,840 music from the Isle of Kirk, which in Kirk KRKI don't know 179 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,360 how to pronounce it. It has no vowels, but that has 180 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,760 the music kind of also has no vowels. 181 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,680 It's it's like 2 Zernas playing harmonized in minor seconds and 182 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:05,960 it's or, or, or major seconds like so it's very crazy 183 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,280 sounding, but I always loved it and it it sounds timeless and I 184 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,680 don't know, violent in a good way. 185 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:21,120 And when you reconvene it this in this form, what's different 186 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,280 about it and what's the same? Or is it just this year, you 187 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,480 know, a continuation of it? Well, you don't have to say, 188 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,520 yeah, I made it better. I've learned a few things over 189 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,760 the ensuing, you know, over the whatever, you know, 40 years, 35 190 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,360 years since I was recording it before. 191 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,640 And. And so I got rid of some 192 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,600 pretentious nonsense and focused on the parts that that really 193 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,960 worked. But yeah, it was, you know, it's 194 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,480 a mixture of this kind of brutal ritual music and new music and 195 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,400 improvising it. It's got it's fun for the whole 196 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,600 family. I know another group that you'll 197 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,200 be bringing to Big Ears. Hurry. 198 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,080 Red Telephone I believe is somewhat of an extension from 199 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,360 that amazing Spiritual Unity project that you did. 200 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,800 And you mentioned the great free jazz hero Albert Eiler, but that 201 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,320 group, Spiritual Unity was a direct. 202 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,120 Yeah, expression of that song book in that spirit, right? 203 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,120 Yeah. Well, you know, I, I, I don't 204 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,600 like to start projects in the abstract. 205 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,720 You know, if I hear a musician that I want to work with, then I 206 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:46,280 think let's jam, you know, and spiritual unity began because I 207 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,040 heard Henry Grimes was in town and wanting to work. 208 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,480 And it took me about like one second to say, yes, let's do 209 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,560 something. And you know, I figured we'd 210 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,240 start off with the either material because it would be 211 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,520 like a common language. I just wanted to make sure there 212 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,800 was a bridge between me and Henry. 213 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,520 And you know, the other person I had been wanting to work with 214 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:16,960 was Chad Taylor. We, we'd done 1 gig together and 215 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,080 I thought and still think he's an amazing drummer. 216 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,440 And so anyways. So Henry Grimes, who then had at 217 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,880 that time, which had magically resurfaced on the scene, I guess 218 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,600 we could say, and is now dear departed as well as the dear 219 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,360 departed Roy Campbell, the trumpeter who was in the 220 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,160 original. But I remember back about that 221 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:44,040 time I remember you talking about Henry and connecting with 222 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,960 Henry Grimes as if you'd punched through a wall and gotten a 223 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,400 glimpse of another scene, and somehow that glimpse was 224 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,880 different than the idea you had in your head. 225 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,840 Well, you know, there's this misconception that like, I think 226 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,760 jazz students have the misconception of the monsters. 227 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,040 You know that, I mean, part of it comes from the fact that, you 228 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,920 know, when we hear ourselves play, we hear all our mistakes 229 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,960 and we hear our, you know, our glitches. 230 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,920 And but when we hear our heroes play, we're, we're hearing 231 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,480 mastered records that have been edited and, and, you know, and, 232 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,600 and mixed and mastered in, in a certain way, you know, they're 233 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,360 angels known as engineers trying to help us sound good. 234 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,720 So it's part that and just part the, the mythologies that come 235 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:43,160 with time, the fetishization. And So what I heard in Henry's 236 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,400 playing was every bit as imaginative and wonderful as the 237 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,760 records. But there was no monster there. 238 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,600 There was a human being who did what Henry did, did it 239 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,480 beautifully. But he wasn't, it wasn't a 240 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,520 cutting contest. He wasn't trying to be the 241 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,839 fastest bebopper on the block. He wasn't trying to scare 242 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,599 anybody. He was just somebody who loved 243 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,119 getting lost in the music, you know? 244 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,040 Yeah, I mean, he was also a pretty great poet, and I always 245 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,640 felt like when he played, he was a poet. 246 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,400 Too. Absolutely. 247 00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:57,400 So now this hurry red telephone presents that same spirit with 248 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,720 Chad from the original group, with Sebastian, who's in your 249 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,000 other group, Shrek, and with the saxophonist Brig and Krauss. 250 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,360 Yes, I've been experimenting with different instrumentations. 251 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:12,160 What I knew from the beginning was, you know, by by the end of 252 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,320 the group with with Henry, Henry and Chad and I were playing in a 253 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,720 trio. And some of those gigs remain 254 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,840 for me like the just the highest I've ever gotten as a musician. 255 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,200 And so I wanted to continue after Henry couldn't play 256 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,640 anymore and eventually died. I wanted to continue something 257 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,720 with Chad. And that's what this is. 258 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,960 It's gone through a couple of phases. 259 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,880 Very happy to get Sebastian Steinberg back in the mix. 260 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,240 He was my bass player of of choice in the in the early 90s 261 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,480 before he moved to LA and became a session musician out there. 262 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:01,560 Wonderfully, amazingly inventive and solid, solid musician and 263 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,680 I've played with different, different instrumentations. 264 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,280 But now we're going to try with Brig and Krauss will be joining 265 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:17,000 us on Alto sax. I started out using tenor saxes 266 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,320 and you know, when I said before that I've learned something in 267 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,680 the suing decades, I've also forgotten a lot. 268 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,480 And I forgot how even though we used wonderful, you know, there 269 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,800 were wonderful tenor tenor players involved. 270 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,480 I forgot how difficult it is to blend tenor and guitar, you 271 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,120 know. So I think Alto is the right is 272 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,760 the right way to go. So when we hear that band in 273 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,080 Knoxville, I guess the ghosts that are hovering will include 274 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,880 Albert Eiler, include Roy Campbell, include Henry Grimes. 275 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,240 You know, when I heard that Spiritual Unity band play at the 276 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,280 Village Vanguard, I remember hanging out in the back and 277 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,760 there was Elvis Costello, whose music you've been important in. 278 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,680 And there was the great, late, great producer Hal Willner, who 279 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,920 you've worked with a lot. And yeah, we were talking about, 280 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,240 hey, there's all these Ghosts at the Vanguard, but you've invited 281 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,640 in the ones that maybe aren't always invited into that club. 282 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,720 Now, a very different project in a very different album that you 283 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:34,480 did in 2025, Map of a Blue City will be the basis for another 284 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,840 one of your Big Ears presentations, a solo 285 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,160 presentation. And I know that I think that the 286 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:47,320 impetus for that were some studio sessions that were never 287 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,280 released that you made with Hal, right? 288 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,040 Well, it's, it's a little, yes, basically, but it's a little 289 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,320 more complicated than that. I mean, I had this collection of 290 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,840 songs that I originally wrote as demos. 291 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,200 I figured, OK, I mean, that's something I do every now and 292 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,360 then a song just kind of slips out. 293 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,360 So I had a bunch of them sitting around these demos and I, you 294 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:14,000 know, one day I listened to them all. 295 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,720 You know, my plan was to, you know, get somebody to shop them 296 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,680 to some rock stars and then make a zillion dollars, you know, and 297 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,720 then I, I hadn't planned. I didn't plan after that. 298 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,840 But eventually I listened to them and I realized these are 299 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,000 much too weird. Nobody's going to record these 300 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,400 except me. So I, I started thinking about 301 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,920 putting them together. How took an interest, We 302 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:44,520 recorded them and then I did what I have advised every single 303 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,040 singer-songwriter not to do, which is I kind of had realized 304 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,360 I had fallen in love with the demos, you know, which is 305 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,800 usually a terrible idea. Except in this case, I was 306 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,320 partly right. There was something special 307 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,440 about some of these demos. So then anyways, it was all too 308 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,840 much from my little brain and so I put it on the shelf for a 309 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,960 decade. I didn't know what because we 310 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,080 recorded some great stuff with Hal. 311 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,760 Some of these were home recordings, too, yeah. 312 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,720 Yeah, a lot of you know some were recorded right in the other 313 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,240 room from where we're sitting in my bedroom, AKA my studio. 314 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,200 Anyways, I finally found figured out a way to make them fit on 315 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,120 the same record. If you really want to help me 316 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:47,560 out, close the window, hold the bell captain, and tell them to 317 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,120 please. Do something about the sound of 318 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,480 those. Fucking waves. 319 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:18,920 Now, I've heard you perform solo before. 320 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,200 I remember that miraculous album Saints, that you did so long 321 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,040 ago. I've heard you do the the 322 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,240 Haitian music, play Haitian classical music, this map of 323 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,200 Blue City when you perform it solo. 324 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,600 To me, I liken it a little bit to when you came out with that 325 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,960 brilliant 2018 album Goodbye, Beautiful Songs of Resistance, 326 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,600 which I think is a very important album that came along 327 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,240 in an important moment where you gathered not only historical 328 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,840 songs of protest, but composed some beautiful new ones. 329 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,360 And I remember talking to you around that time saying, hey, 330 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,920 you have sung before, but this is and you have done songs with 331 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,680 lyrics before, but this seemed to be a new focus. 332 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,360 And I remember you told me I've been writing songs my whole 333 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,360 life. I'm a closet songwriter. 334 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,200 So is this is a map of a blue city you fully coming out of the 335 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,360 closet? I guess so. 336 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,320 You know, I mean, I like, you know, it's very weird to like 337 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,640 feeling like I put the record out 'cause it was kind of like 338 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,040 cleaning out my closet. I had all these things that I 339 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,800 wanted, you know, I just wanted to get rid of them, put them in 340 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,160 the world so I could get on to something else. 341 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,920 But, you know, then after I put the record out, I realized, oh, 342 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,840 my God, I'm going to have to tour on this. 343 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,920 The people are expecting me to play this actually live. 344 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,920 What am I going to do? I realize, oh, I realize with 345 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,960 horror that all of a sudden I'd become like a sensitive white 346 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,800 male singer-songwriter. And I was like in a panic. 347 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,440 I couldn't sleep. I was how, how can I live down 348 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,320 the shame? You know, there's not much I can 349 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,080 do about the white male part, but, you know, the sensitive and 350 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,520 the singer-songwriter part, that's like as a hard load to 351 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,720 bear. Yeah, and if I can make it even 352 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,080 worse for you now, it proves that you're old enough to also 353 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,040 look back at things you wrote, feelings you felt, ideas you had 354 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,800 decades ago, and process them new. 355 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,640 So it's also yeah, you're all those things and not young and 356 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:31,880 I'm. Old, yeah. 357 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,920 You said it, I didn't say it. That's OK. 358 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,200 You know, I mean, like, I don't know, I haven't spent my life 359 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,520 sticking my finger in people's eye about so many other things 360 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,520 to be embarrassed about that. It's just what happens if you 361 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,240 don't die. I hate to tell you kids, that's 362 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,760 the only two choices. Now, I mentioned that album 363 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,960 Goodbye Beautiful Songs of Resistance, which I think is 364 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,240 hardly the first and only maybe political act involved in your 365 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,040 music. But that was a very overt 366 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,400 expression of protest songs, which I know you were clear with 367 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,720 me, hey, that was the first time Donald Trump got elected and 368 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,560 this was one of the things you were motivated to do. 369 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,280 But I through the years I've followed closely and even been 370 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:28,200 there sometimes for other kinds of political action or activism 371 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,040 or just speaking out that maybe isn't separate from your music. 372 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,440 And I remember you told me your first political campaign 373 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,800 happened in second grade when they cancelled the Soupy sales 374 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,240 TV show. Yeah, and you let a protest 375 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,720 March in elementary school? Yeah, that's right. 376 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:51,480 And we want soupy. And anyone who is old enough to 377 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,720 remember Soupy Sales, God bless you. 378 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,600 And I know I remember it's got to be nearly 20 years ago when a 379 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,520 number of downtown New York venues that hosted experimental 380 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,480 music closed and rents were finally really becoming 381 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,360 prohibitive. I remember a City Hall protest 382 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:14,040 where there you were alongside William Parker and others, 383 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,520 imploring the City Council to create a sustainable context for 384 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,360 what I remember you talking about as a signature cultural 385 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:27,360 community of New York. I remember maybe five years ago 386 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,440 you standing in a pouring rain in front of Google's Manhattan 387 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,240 headquarters delivering A petition calling for economic 388 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,000 justice in the digital domain. Which brings me to now with the 389 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:45,440 latest initiative, the We Need a Union campaign. 390 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,000 Can you talk a little bit about what that means? 391 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,400 And what it's about. Well, I will, but I just just 392 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,080 lest the listening audience think that everything I'm 393 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,160 involved with fails, I want to add to those things that we 394 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:07,000 successfully unionized Winter Jazz Festival and much to its 395 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,160 credit, the festival has productively bargained and 396 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,040 brought up the minimum rates. We successfully created fair 397 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,400 minimums in the 90s at the Knitting Factory Jazz Festivals 398 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,040 and won back payments, pretty large back payments from 399 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,560 Knitting Factory Records after, you know, so, so I I don't mind 400 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,280 being quixotic, but I don't want to be Sancho Panza anyways, no. 401 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,400 No, far from it actually. I know that, you know, you 402 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,320 worked along other people who have created a very strong 403 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,160 foundation for the Music Workers Alliance and that there there 404 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,760 have been. You know, as with almost all 405 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,400 such issues, there are points along the way where communities 406 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,280 have been formed and specific victories have happened, and 407 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,080 that's forward motion. Yet I know we find ourselves in 408 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,960 a moment where, well, you put it, whoever wrote the petition I 409 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,160 got put it well. And they said recording 410 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,440 musicians are now facing mass displacement and devaluation via 411 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,080 generative AI, Right. So what? 412 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,200 Yeah, can. Can you frame for us the issues 413 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,240 at hand and what you and we can do? 414 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,040 I mean, it's not the technology itself that is the problem. 415 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,680 All of us are using some kind of AI for track cleaning and 416 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,400 different things. But there is a bright red line 417 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,960 on what's ethical and what is not. 418 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,480 It's ethical if there is the consent of everybody who 419 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,200 performed on a recording to its ingestion into an AI system. 420 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,080 If people consent, have a right of consent and they can bargain 421 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,400 to get paid, they can bargain to get credit. 422 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,960 If they don't have a right of consent, then they can't and 423 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,600 they will get nothing. So what we've seen this before, 424 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,320 OK, We saw this with Spotify, you know, where the major labels 425 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,880 licensed their stuff to Spotify. They work things out among 426 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,360 themselves. Everybody else had to fall into 427 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,000 line because you know, when the big companies do it, that's 428 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,320 where the market goes. And they got rich and we are 429 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:25,240 stuck more or less permanently with a .0038 cents per stream 430 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,120 starvation wage. Yeah, they got richer, you got 431 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,600 poorer. We got exactly. 432 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,760 So the same thing is happening now. 433 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,280 The major labels have announced that they are going to license 434 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,200 to the AI companies and, well, you read correctly. 435 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,520 What what we think the result is going to be, what it's going to 436 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:49,720 be is also legally bulletproof. In other words, once the rights 437 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,960 holders have reached this deal, there's gonna be no hope really 438 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,800 that somebody's gonna be able to sue 'cause it's not gonna be 439 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,800 copyright infringement. It'll be, you know, the rights 440 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,680 holders will have made their deal and the people who will be 441 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,200 locked out of that deal are going to be the band members who 442 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,440 are not, you know, contract featured artists, signatory band 443 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,160 members. They will be the side musicians 444 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,960 who record an awful lot more of what you hear than you think. 445 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,440 And and also, you know, they're going to be DIY artists who are 446 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,520 just gonna have once, once the major players have made their 447 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,480 deals, you know, there will be very little leverage left for 448 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,240 the smaller players. Now, what can we do? 449 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,200 That's the question right now. This week there are negotiations 450 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,400 going on between the American Federation of Musicians, the 451 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,520 Musicians Union and the major labels. 452 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,880 And we have asked the Musicians Union to fight for all recording 453 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,480 musicians and say, hey, wait a minute, you can't license this 454 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,040 stuff unless not only the artists, not only the featured 455 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,520 artists, but all the musicians give consent, are getting paid, 456 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,280 are getting credited and. I've seen listed no AI licensing 457 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,760 without consent, fair pay for those who consent, and portable 458 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,800 benefits for Indian musicians. So what is that third item? 459 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,000 Yeah, the third item, we actually have a very detailed 460 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,400 proposal and I don't want to bore your listeners to tears, 461 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,800 but there is a new IATC plan that we we've been in 462 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,320 discussions with some people who did it. 463 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,360 It's to get like indie Rd. crews for, you know, they're touring, 464 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,120 get them health benefits. But it's connected with the big 465 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,320 main IATSE plan of all the big stagehands and all. 466 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,320 You know that. Are working iatse being. 467 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,360 The stagehands and the technical, you know, engineers, 468 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,520 stagehands and all technical workers. 469 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,360 Very strong union, very big union. 470 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,920 And there's a way that we could get recording musicians covered 471 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,800 under that plan it so it wouldn't cost the musicians 472 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,000 union anything. And what it would, you know, 473 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,400 obviously we're not we're not completed. 474 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,840 It's we, we know that the fact that somebody does a record that 475 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,040 streams, you know, 303 hundred hits is not going to get full 476 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,480 health benefits. But there's no reason why a 477 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,200 young side person who's played on 30 records this year and 478 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,160 generated $1,000,000 for the major label distributors, 479 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,800 there's no reason why that person should not have health 480 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,800 benefits. There's no reason why by people 481 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,480 who played on a a good size indie hit, you know that's 482 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,520 distributed by the majors. If it generates profit for the 483 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,200 large corporations, these people should have should have 484 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,280 benefits. So that's a separate issue, but 485 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,120 it's the one where you're saying, well, there are 486 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,760 generations of indie musicians who have lived and died without 487 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,840 basic union representation, and this is something that's easily 488 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,720 realizable. Yes, becomes a priority 489 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960 absolutely. And you know, I, I know there is 490 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,280 a context in which all the issues that we've talked about 491 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,000 in the past about copyrights involving YouTube or involving 492 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:17,280 streaming, well, 2025 years ago, people didn't anticipate just 493 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,800 what the consequences would be. I take it now you and others 494 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,440 involved in this, this initiative are saying, hey, in 495 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:34,320 2026 the AFM and everyone who cares about these issues can 496 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,920 fight back when negotiations are being made with major between 497 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,480 major labels and the corporations involved in AI. 498 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,760 And now is the time, or we'll see consequences down the line. 499 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,320 That's correct. And, you know, we're also saying 500 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:55,159 that we need to see that the AFM needs to step up and fight for 501 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:59,080 all musicians, not just the small, relatively small number 502 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,080 who record for in house for the major labels. 503 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,400 So it's, it's, it's very important. 504 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,400 We do we need a union. And I people can learn more 505 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,520 about this at musicworkersalliance.org. 506 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,920 There's a link there to the petition, the We need a Union 507 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,280 petition and the stand with the band artist pledge. 508 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,520 Pledge to not license your music to AI companies unless the whole 509 00:35:23,520 --> 00:36:07,800 band was consulted. We've talked a little bit about 510 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,280 these political and social justice issues. 511 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,560 We've talked a little bit about your beautiful expression of 512 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,200 protest songs and Goodbye Beautiful And I've I wanted to 513 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,080 ask you for the music you make that is purely instrumental. 514 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,320 Is improvisation, sometimes in and of itself, a political act? 515 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,480 Yeah, let's put it this way. I think all political acts are, 516 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:42,320 or the best are improvisations, you know, So I don't know if all 517 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,240 improvisation is political, but yeah. 518 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,360 Well, but the stream of improvisation, the legacy of 519 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,000 improvisation that you are channeling when you take a 520 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,120 starting point with Albert Eiler or with Arsenio Rodriguez, those 521 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,800 have an element of. Yes, they do. 522 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,840 You know, I there was once a a guy I met over in Japan named 523 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,200 Akyo Suzuki. I don't know if he's still 524 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,720 alive. I haven't seen him sit in 20-30 525 00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:20,320 years maybe, but we ran into him on a train when I was on tour 526 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,720 with the Lounge Lizards and he was a friend of John Cage's and 527 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,680 we went back to Japan. We ran into him in Kyoto. 528 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:36,360 He he had come in, he had given up everything and was working 529 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,120 with his wife and a few others to build an earthen ark in the 530 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,680 middle of the country, in the middle of nowhere, where people 531 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,480 in could just sit, lean against it and listen. 532 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,840 There was no stage. They could lean against this 533 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,760 thing and listen. And I think, you know, that's 534 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,040 where the kind of improvising that I do on the stage and the 535 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,200 kind of political improvising that we do off the stage come 536 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,800 together. We need to create a context. 537 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,640 A context where people can listen, a context where people 538 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,280 can perform, where all people can can perform. 539 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,880 Not just those rich enough to be able to sustain themselves, not 540 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,600 just those who have inherited enough money so that they can 541 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,440 learn to play and and show up again, not getting paid, but 542 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,400 people who need to get paid in order to pay their rent in order 543 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,960 to make these records. So we're doing kind of 544 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,440 economically what Akio was doing with, with Dirt, you know? 545 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,720 I yeah, that's a beautiful thought. 546 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,480 And I do think that's part of why I go to Knoxville for big 547 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,440 years. It's, it's one step in the 548 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,360 direction of an arc. And it is may not be in the 549 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,120 middle of nowhere, but it's certainly off the beaten path of 550 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,480 where we would typically go. So I'm very much looking forward 551 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,320 to hearing you there and seeing you there. 552 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,280 And I know in addition to the three things we talked about, I 553 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,240 hear that there will be a fourth. 554 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,800 Are we allowed to know anything about that? 555 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:23,160 It's top secret. All right, I think we're good, 556 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,880 right? That was fun man. 557 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,680 We've been listening to guitarist Mark Rebo in 558 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,320 conversation with culture journalist and music critic 559 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,480 Larry Blumenfeld. Mark Rebo is back at Biggers 560 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,920 this year with three different performances. 561 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,960 He's bringing back Shrek, his legendary 90s band, with 562 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,640 guitarist Mary Halverson. He's debuting a new quartet, 563 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:59,040 Hurry Red Telephone, and performing his solo project Map 564 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:05,280 of a Blue City. Big Ears 2026 will take place 565 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:10,320 March 26th through 29th in Knoxville, TN Full schedules by 566 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,760 day and venue are now available online. 567 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,280 For more information and updates, visit 568 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,240 figuresfestival.org. Visit 569 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:24,600 mark.reboonline@marcribot.com. You can learn more about the We 570 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,560 Need a Union campaign at musicworkersalliance.org. 571 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,320 Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big 572 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,760 Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. 573 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,160 The show was produced by Matt Marowitz. 574 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,240 This episode was edited by Alex Arif with additional recording 575 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,240 and editing support from Vishal Nayak. 576 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,960 Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big 577 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,160 Ears. Thanks for listening and until 578 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,200 next time, keep those ears wide open.