Welcome to Big Ears conversations about music.
I'm your host Sarah Gilletti. Today's episode is a special
one. Any long time Big Ears patron
has come to expect an almost annual presence from the
acclaimed guitarist, composer and activist Mark Rebo.
Here he speaks with the veteran culture journalist and music
critic Larry Blumenfeld. A frequent contributor to the
Wall Street Journal, The Nation and editor of Chamber Music
magazine, Mark Rebo has always gone his own way.
Sometimes tender and acoustic, other times loud and aggressive,
Rebo's singular sound has earned him an army of fans and
followers. Having recorded over 25 albums
as a leader and appeared on an estimated 600 more as a sideman,
Rebos helped define Tom Waits weird Americano on Rain Dogs.
He crafted a more polished Americana for Alison Krauss and
Robert Plant on their Grammy winning Raising Sand.
He's played with Elvis Costello, Henry Grimes, John Zorn, Wilson
Pickett, Marianne Faithful, the list goes on.
In this conversation, Mark talks about his early experiences on
the music scene and his unique evolution as an artist.
He tells us about the 2 bands and solo project he's bringing
to Big Ears and we dig into his activism, specifically the
challenges musicians face in the age of streaming and AI, and
what it means to create and organize in these ever changing
times. Let's listen in.
Mark and that wonderful book of yours, Unstrung Rants and
Stories of a Noise Guitarist. I know near the beginning you
talked about being a New Jersey kid, trying to make a name for
yourself in New York and playing with, let's say, organist Jack
Mcduff. And while those gigs were great,
you realized you needed to strike out on your own path.
And can you talk a little bit about what that realization and
what that time was like? Well, when I first got to New
York, I mean, basically all I want to do is play.
And then I modified that a little bit to be all I wanted to
do was play anything that wasn't a wedding or bar mitzvah after
my experiences that were common to young musicians coming to New
York when I did, which was the late 70s.
So it kind of happened or this, I didn't think of making a name
for myself per SE, but I, I did think of getting some gigs for
myself. I was, I was working with
whoever I possibly could. You know, everything from
terrible gigs on Bleecker St., you know, to I, I managed to
find myself some solo gigs, playing solo acoustic guitar at
restaurants, jazz and classical stuff, you know, whatever I
possibly could to pay the rent. But then I connected with some
players who were in bands that were playing in, you know, the
kind of new club land, you know, CBGB's, Hurrahs, places like
that. There was club called Tramps
Snafu. These were the places.
So I started playing with a band called Brandon the Real Tones,
which later became the Real Tones, which later became the
Uptown Horns. Did some gigs with them.
They started backing up name artist from Stax Vault.
We started getting reviewed in in the In the Times and
elsewhere whenever we'd backup, you know, Syl Johnson, Solomon
Burke, Carla Thomas, Rufus Thomas.
And so, you know, that led to other things.
One of those other things not far down the road from that
probably being lounge lizards. Yeah, that's right.
Where there was I around that time?
Did you sense that? Hey, here's the scene where I
can actually find myself. Have enough freedom to find
myself. Yeah, I thought, you know, I
was. I was happy because it gave the
lizards right from the beginning.
Gave me an opportunity to stretch out in some ways.
I'd heard in the free jazz scene and and and loft scene, but I
hadn't really gotten a chance to do live in front of audiences.
So in other words, I could solo without chord changes, without
tonality sometimes, you know, I could try try a lot of stuff
out. The.
When you were not even a teenager, maybe you encountered
your first real mentor, a Haitian guitarist.
Can you talk a little bit about what you gained from that
experience? Well, the Haitian guitarist in
question, guitarist, composer was Franz Caseus CASSEUS.
Well, I mean, I learned to play from Franz.
You know, he taught me where you put your fingers.
But Franz was a classical guitarist and composer.
And so, you know, what I learned very initially was how to play,
you know, the student basics of the classical guitar repertoire.
And I was immediately applying this knowledge to playing in
garage bands. You know, like, I, I think not
probably not even a year in. I started taking these lessons
when I was 11. So maybe, yeah, maybe a a a year
or two later, I was, you know, already playing without a pick a
leg, you know, I got some electric guitar and me and my
and it was this was Jersey. So we actually had garages and
we actually had a band in one of my friends garages.
So yeah, we I was applying it to playing garage bands.
And so for a while it seemed to me that, well, you know, Franz
taught me how to play, but we went different directions.
But much later on, I, I realized that I got a sensibility from
Franz. I mean, he was a classical
guitarist, but a a Haitian classical guitarist, which you
know, he he in his playing and I, I recommend his own
recordings of his tunes very high, very highly, and
particularly Haitian dances Haitian Suite, which is on
Smithsonian folkways. You can hear that even when he
approaches what would be otherwise a straight ahead
classical composition. You can hear the rhythmic
tension in it that's peculiarly Haitian.
If it's in four, you feel the three pushing against that.
If it's in three, you feel four or sometimes A5, you know, dad
to dad to dad becomes Dad, Dad that that, you know, it's that
Haitian thing. Yeah, and, you know, you telling
me about him drew me to his music and something I felt like
connected them was this feeling of tenderness and intensity at
but not as separate poles and which has always struck me about
your work. So now talks, talking now
decades later from where we were starting, and some, you know, 20
some odd albums of your own and so many others with so many
other people, I moved to ask why so many different kinds of
bands? Well, you know, Papa's got to
pay the rent, you know, but, but.
But I know it's not just that. No, you know, you're right.
I guess I'm, I don't know, I guess I'm nervous or, you know,
like I'm, I'm always like looking to, if I like something,
I don't just like it, but I'm, I'm looking to swim back up the
river to see where it came from. You know who who are the
influences where they get that stuff, You know, So I've checked
out a lot of different styles, a lot of different, you know, a
lot of different ways of playing.
But I don't focus on the differences between these.
It's not like I'm out there trying to be a consumer of
genres. You know, it's more like all the
stuff I like has a certain intensity.
I mean, you mentioned the music of Brother Jack Mcduff or, you
know, whether it's whether it's that or the OR a Haitian rah rah
ban or. Or the Cuban trace player
Arsenio. Rodriguez or, or you know, or
listening to Richard Hale and Robert Quine playing at CBG BS,
you know, it was all a kind of punk rock to me.
You know, I like, I like the stuff that like really goes over
the top, you know? Now we're having this
conversation along the lines of many we've had, but also in
connection with the Big Ears Festival.
And I remember running into you in the street two years ago when
you were packing up, ready to leave.
And I think we were talking about how, hey, the two of us
are world weary, maybe somewhat jaded New Yorkers, but that big
Year's experience sort of relieves us of a lot of that
baggage. And.
Yeah. Yeah.
Why is that for you? What?
What is? Well, you know, I mean, you
know, just first of all, I mean, it's a great festival and I, I
meet and hang out with more of my friends in Knoxville, TN than
I ever do in New York. When I'm in New York, you know,
everybody's like busy or, or, you know, far away, you know, I
mean, maybe we look close to Fort Lee, NJ from far away, but
I'm a lazy guy, you know what I mean?
So I have friends who live in that area that I might not see
for six, six months to a year, you know, but there, everybody's
in it's the, it's the, it's the community we imagine ourselves
living in, in our minds, you know, is actually present down
there. Yeah, I I agree.
And you know, another thing is of course that you get that
rarity of, or I get that rarity of hearing musicians I admire
playing in they're very different contexts or the a
range of their contexts, which only comes around once a decade
or so, usually for musicians. So I know at the 2026 big years
festival that will manifest in a few different groups.
And Shrek is a group that you first formed, oh, 30 years ago.
And I know a big ears you'll have one of the original
members, Sebastian Steinberg, as well as Mary Halverson and two
great drummers, Chad Taylor and Chad Smith.
What was the inspiration for that group lo those many years
ago? Well, the inspiration for the
group many years ago was just I was trying to rock the house.
It was influenced by a couple of things.
I mean, that group was related to a group I had called the
Brutal Nativisms. And that other title, The Brutal
Nativisms kind of describes the approach I was listening to a
lot of. Well, I was listening to Eiler,
I was listening to Yugoslavian, specifically Croatian wedding
music from the Isle of Kirk, which in Kirk KRKI don't know
how to pronounce it. It has no vowels, but that has
the music kind of also has no vowels.
It's it's like 2 Zernas playing harmonized in minor seconds and
it's or, or, or major seconds like so it's very crazy
sounding, but I always loved it and it it sounds timeless and I
don't know, violent in a good way.
And when you reconvene it this in this form, what's different
about it and what's the same? Or is it just this year, you
know, a continuation of it? Well, you don't have to say,
yeah, I made it better. I've learned a few things over
the ensuing, you know, over the whatever, you know, 40 years, 35
years since I was recording it before.
And. And so I got rid of some
pretentious nonsense and focused on the parts that that really
worked. But yeah, it was, you know, it's
a mixture of this kind of brutal ritual music and new music and
improvising it. It's got it's fun for the whole
family. I know another group that you'll
be bringing to Big Ears. Hurry.
Red Telephone I believe is somewhat of an extension from
that amazing Spiritual Unity project that you did.
And you mentioned the great free jazz hero Albert Eiler, but that
group, Spiritual Unity was a direct.
Yeah, expression of that song book in that spirit, right?
Yeah. Well, you know, I, I, I don't
like to start projects in the abstract.
You know, if I hear a musician that I want to work with, then I
think let's jam, you know, and spiritual unity began because I
heard Henry Grimes was in town and wanting to work.
And it took me about like one second to say, yes, let's do
something. And you know, I figured we'd
start off with the either material because it would be
like a common language. I just wanted to make sure there
was a bridge between me and Henry.
And you know, the other person I had been wanting to work with
was Chad Taylor. We, we'd done 1 gig together and
I thought and still think he's an amazing drummer.
And so anyways. So Henry Grimes, who then had at
that time, which had magically resurfaced on the scene, I guess
we could say, and is now dear departed as well as the dear
departed Roy Campbell, the trumpeter who was in the
original. But I remember back about that
time I remember you talking about Henry and connecting with
Henry Grimes as if you'd punched through a wall and gotten a
glimpse of another scene, and somehow that glimpse was
different than the idea you had in your head.
Well, you know, there's this misconception that like, I think
jazz students have the misconception of the monsters.
You know that, I mean, part of it comes from the fact that, you
know, when we hear ourselves play, we hear all our mistakes
and we hear our, you know, our glitches.
And but when we hear our heroes play, we're, we're hearing
mastered records that have been edited and, and, you know, and,
and mixed and mastered in, in a certain way, you know, they're
angels known as engineers trying to help us sound good.
So it's part that and just part the, the mythologies that come
with time, the fetishization. And So what I heard in Henry's
playing was every bit as imaginative and wonderful as the
records. But there was no monster there.
There was a human being who did what Henry did, did it
beautifully. But he wasn't, it wasn't a
cutting contest. He wasn't trying to be the
fastest bebopper on the block. He wasn't trying to scare
anybody. He was just somebody who loved
getting lost in the music, you know?
Yeah, I mean, he was also a pretty great poet, and I always
felt like when he played, he was a poet.
Too. Absolutely.
So now this hurry red telephone presents that same spirit with
Chad from the original group, with Sebastian, who's in your
other group, Shrek, and with the saxophonist Brig and Krauss.
Yes, I've been experimenting with different instrumentations.
What I knew from the beginning was, you know, by by the end of
the group with with Henry, Henry and Chad and I were playing in a
trio. And some of those gigs remain
for me like the just the highest I've ever gotten as a musician.
And so I wanted to continue after Henry couldn't play
anymore and eventually died. I wanted to continue something
with Chad. And that's what this is.
It's gone through a couple of phases.
Very happy to get Sebastian Steinberg back in the mix.
He was my bass player of of choice in the in the early 90s
before he moved to LA and became a session musician out there.
Wonderfully, amazingly inventive and solid, solid musician and
I've played with different, different instrumentations.
But now we're going to try with Brig and Krauss will be joining
us on Alto sax. I started out using tenor saxes
and you know, when I said before that I've learned something in
the suing decades, I've also forgotten a lot.
And I forgot how even though we used wonderful, you know, there
were wonderful tenor tenor players involved.
I forgot how difficult it is to blend tenor and guitar, you
know. So I think Alto is the right is
the right way to go. So when we hear that band in
Knoxville, I guess the ghosts that are hovering will include
Albert Eiler, include Roy Campbell, include Henry Grimes.
You know, when I heard that Spiritual Unity band play at the
Village Vanguard, I remember hanging out in the back and
there was Elvis Costello, whose music you've been important in.
And there was the great, late, great producer Hal Willner, who
you've worked with a lot. And yeah, we were talking about,
hey, there's all these Ghosts at the Vanguard, but you've invited
in the ones that maybe aren't always invited into that club.
Now, a very different project in a very different album that you
did in 2025, Map of a Blue City will be the basis for another
one of your Big Ears presentations, a solo
presentation. And I know that I think that the
impetus for that were some studio sessions that were never
released that you made with Hal, right?
Well, it's, it's a little, yes, basically, but it's a little
more complicated than that. I mean, I had this collection of
songs that I originally wrote as demos.
I figured, OK, I mean, that's something I do every now and
then a song just kind of slips out.
So I had a bunch of them sitting around these demos and I, you
know, one day I listened to them all.
You know, my plan was to, you know, get somebody to shop them
to some rock stars and then make a zillion dollars, you know, and
then I, I hadn't planned. I didn't plan after that.
But eventually I listened to them and I realized these are
much too weird. Nobody's going to record these
except me. So I, I started thinking about
putting them together. How took an interest, We
recorded them and then I did what I have advised every single
singer-songwriter not to do, which is I kind of had realized
I had fallen in love with the demos, you know, which is
usually a terrible idea. Except in this case, I was
partly right. There was something special
about some of these demos. So then anyways, it was all too
much from my little brain and so I put it on the shelf for a
decade. I didn't know what because we
recorded some great stuff with Hal.
Some of these were home recordings, too, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of you know some were recorded right in the other
room from where we're sitting in my bedroom, AKA my studio.
Anyways, I finally found figured out a way to make them fit on
the same record. If you really want to help me
out, close the window, hold the bell captain, and tell them to
please. Do something about the sound of
those. Fucking waves.
Now, I've heard you perform solo before.
I remember that miraculous album Saints, that you did so long
ago. I've heard you do the the
Haitian music, play Haitian classical music, this map of
Blue City when you perform it solo.
To me, I liken it a little bit to when you came out with that
brilliant 2018 album Goodbye, Beautiful Songs of Resistance,
which I think is a very important album that came along
in an important moment where you gathered not only historical
songs of protest, but composed some beautiful new ones.
And I remember talking to you around that time saying, hey,
you have sung before, but this is and you have done songs with
lyrics before, but this seemed to be a new focus.
And I remember you told me I've been writing songs my whole
life. I'm a closet songwriter.
So is this is a map of a blue city you fully coming out of the
closet? I guess so.
You know, I mean, I like, you know, it's very weird to like
feeling like I put the record out 'cause it was kind of like
cleaning out my closet. I had all these things that I
wanted, you know, I just wanted to get rid of them, put them in
the world so I could get on to something else.
But, you know, then after I put the record out, I realized, oh,
my God, I'm going to have to tour on this.
The people are expecting me to play this actually live.
What am I going to do? I realize, oh, I realize with
horror that all of a sudden I'd become like a sensitive white
male singer-songwriter. And I was like in a panic.
I couldn't sleep. I was how, how can I live down
the shame? You know, there's not much I can
do about the white male part, but, you know, the sensitive and
the singer-songwriter part, that's like as a hard load to
bear. Yeah, and if I can make it even
worse for you now, it proves that you're old enough to also
look back at things you wrote, feelings you felt, ideas you had
decades ago, and process them new.
So it's also yeah, you're all those things and not young and
I'm. Old, yeah.
You said it, I didn't say it. That's OK.
You know, I mean, like, I don't know, I haven't spent my life
sticking my finger in people's eye about so many other things
to be embarrassed about that. It's just what happens if you
don't die. I hate to tell you kids, that's
the only two choices. Now, I mentioned that album
Goodbye Beautiful Songs of Resistance, which I think is
hardly the first and only maybe political act involved in your
music. But that was a very overt
expression of protest songs, which I know you were clear with
me, hey, that was the first time Donald Trump got elected and
this was one of the things you were motivated to do.
But I through the years I've followed closely and even been
there sometimes for other kinds of political action or activism
or just speaking out that maybe isn't separate from your music.
And I remember you told me your first political campaign
happened in second grade when they cancelled the Soupy sales
TV show. Yeah, and you let a protest
March in elementary school? Yeah, that's right.
And we want soupy. And anyone who is old enough to
remember Soupy Sales, God bless you.
And I know I remember it's got to be nearly 20 years ago when a
number of downtown New York venues that hosted experimental
music closed and rents were finally really becoming
prohibitive. I remember a City Hall protest
where there you were alongside William Parker and others,
imploring the City Council to create a sustainable context for
what I remember you talking about as a signature cultural
community of New York. I remember maybe five years ago
you standing in a pouring rain in front of Google's Manhattan
headquarters delivering A petition calling for economic
justice in the digital domain. Which brings me to now with the
latest initiative, the We Need a Union campaign.
Can you talk a little bit about what that means?
And what it's about. Well, I will, but I just just
lest the listening audience think that everything I'm
involved with fails, I want to add to those things that we
successfully unionized Winter Jazz Festival and much to its
credit, the festival has productively bargained and
brought up the minimum rates. We successfully created fair
minimums in the 90s at the Knitting Factory Jazz Festivals
and won back payments, pretty large back payments from
Knitting Factory Records after, you know, so, so I I don't mind
being quixotic, but I don't want to be Sancho Panza anyways, no.
No, far from it actually. I know that, you know, you
worked along other people who have created a very strong
foundation for the Music Workers Alliance and that there there
have been. You know, as with almost all
such issues, there are points along the way where communities
have been formed and specific victories have happened, and
that's forward motion. Yet I know we find ourselves in
a moment where, well, you put it, whoever wrote the petition I
got put it well. And they said recording
musicians are now facing mass displacement and devaluation via
generative AI, Right. So what?
Yeah, can. Can you frame for us the issues
at hand and what you and we can do?
I mean, it's not the technology itself that is the problem.
All of us are using some kind of AI for track cleaning and
different things. But there is a bright red line
on what's ethical and what is not.
It's ethical if there is the consent of everybody who
performed on a recording to its ingestion into an AI system.
If people consent, have a right of consent and they can bargain
to get paid, they can bargain to get credit.
If they don't have a right of consent, then they can't and
they will get nothing. So what we've seen this before,
OK, We saw this with Spotify, you know, where the major labels
licensed their stuff to Spotify. They work things out among
themselves. Everybody else had to fall into
line because you know, when the big companies do it, that's
where the market goes. And they got rich and we are
stuck more or less permanently with a .0038 cents per stream
starvation wage. Yeah, they got richer, you got
poorer. We got exactly.
So the same thing is happening now.
The major labels have announced that they are going to license
to the AI companies and, well, you read correctly.
What what we think the result is going to be, what it's going to
be is also legally bulletproof. In other words, once the rights
holders have reached this deal, there's gonna be no hope really
that somebody's gonna be able to sue 'cause it's not gonna be
copyright infringement. It'll be, you know, the rights
holders will have made their deal and the people who will be
locked out of that deal are going to be the band members who
are not, you know, contract featured artists, signatory band
members. They will be the side musicians
who record an awful lot more of what you hear than you think.
And and also, you know, they're going to be DIY artists who are
just gonna have once, once the major players have made their
deals, you know, there will be very little leverage left for
the smaller players. Now, what can we do?
That's the question right now. This week there are negotiations
going on between the American Federation of Musicians, the
Musicians Union and the major labels.
And we have asked the Musicians Union to fight for all recording
musicians and say, hey, wait a minute, you can't license this
stuff unless not only the artists, not only the featured
artists, but all the musicians give consent, are getting paid,
are getting credited and. I've seen listed no AI licensing
without consent, fair pay for those who consent, and portable
benefits for Indian musicians. So what is that third item?
Yeah, the third item, we actually have a very detailed
proposal and I don't want to bore your listeners to tears,
but there is a new IATC plan that we we've been in
discussions with some people who did it.
It's to get like indie Rd. crews for, you know, they're touring,
get them health benefits. But it's connected with the big
main IATSE plan of all the big stagehands and all.
You know that. Are working iatse being.
The stagehands and the technical, you know, engineers,
stagehands and all technical workers.
Very strong union, very big union.
And there's a way that we could get recording musicians covered
under that plan it so it wouldn't cost the musicians
union anything. And what it would, you know,
obviously we're not we're not completed.
It's we, we know that the fact that somebody does a record that
streams, you know, 303 hundred hits is not going to get full
health benefits. But there's no reason why a
young side person who's played on 30 records this year and
generated $1,000,000 for the major label distributors,
there's no reason why that person should not have health
benefits. There's no reason why by people
who played on a a good size indie hit, you know that's
distributed by the majors. If it generates profit for the
large corporations, these people should have should have
benefits. So that's a separate issue, but
it's the one where you're saying, well, there are
generations of indie musicians who have lived and died without
basic union representation, and this is something that's easily
realizable. Yes, becomes a priority
absolutely. And you know, I, I know there is
a context in which all the issues that we've talked about
in the past about copyrights involving YouTube or involving
streaming, well, 2025 years ago, people didn't anticipate just
what the consequences would be. I take it now you and others
involved in this, this initiative are saying, hey, in
2026 the AFM and everyone who cares about these issues can
fight back when negotiations are being made with major between
major labels and the corporations involved in AI.
And now is the time, or we'll see consequences down the line.
That's correct. And, you know, we're also saying
that we need to see that the AFM needs to step up and fight for
all musicians, not just the small, relatively small number
who record for in house for the major labels.
So it's, it's, it's very important.
We do we need a union. And I people can learn more
about this at musicworkersalliance.org.
There's a link there to the petition, the We need a Union
petition and the stand with the band artist pledge.
Pledge to not license your music to AI companies unless the whole
band was consulted. We've talked a little bit about
these political and social justice issues.
We've talked a little bit about your beautiful expression of
protest songs and Goodbye Beautiful And I've I wanted to
ask you for the music you make that is purely instrumental.
Is improvisation, sometimes in and of itself, a political act?
Yeah, let's put it this way. I think all political acts are,
or the best are improvisations, you know, So I don't know if all
improvisation is political, but yeah.
Well, but the stream of improvisation, the legacy of
improvisation that you are channeling when you take a
starting point with Albert Eiler or with Arsenio Rodriguez, those
have an element of. Yes, they do.
You know, I there was once a a guy I met over in Japan named
Akyo Suzuki. I don't know if he's still
alive. I haven't seen him sit in 20-30
years maybe, but we ran into him on a train when I was on tour
with the Lounge Lizards and he was a friend of John Cage's and
we went back to Japan. We ran into him in Kyoto.
He he had come in, he had given up everything and was working
with his wife and a few others to build an earthen ark in the
middle of the country, in the middle of nowhere, where people
in could just sit, lean against it and listen.
There was no stage. They could lean against this
thing and listen. And I think, you know, that's
where the kind of improvising that I do on the stage and the
kind of political improvising that we do off the stage come
together. We need to create a context.
A context where people can listen, a context where people
can perform, where all people can can perform.
Not just those rich enough to be able to sustain themselves, not
just those who have inherited enough money so that they can
learn to play and and show up again, not getting paid, but
people who need to get paid in order to pay their rent in order
to make these records. So we're doing kind of
economically what Akio was doing with, with Dirt, you know?
I yeah, that's a beautiful thought.
And I do think that's part of why I go to Knoxville for big
years. It's, it's one step in the
direction of an arc. And it is may not be in the
middle of nowhere, but it's certainly off the beaten path of
where we would typically go. So I'm very much looking forward
to hearing you there and seeing you there.
And I know in addition to the three things we talked about, I
hear that there will be a fourth.
Are we allowed to know anything about that?
It's top secret. All right, I think we're good,
right? That was fun man.
We've been listening to guitarist Mark Rebo in
conversation with culture journalist and music critic
Larry Blumenfeld. Mark Rebo is back at Biggers
this year with three different performances.
He's bringing back Shrek, his legendary 90s band, with
guitarist Mary Halverson. He's debuting a new quartet,
Hurry Red Telephone, and performing his solo project Map
of a Blue City. Big Ears 2026 will take place
March 26th through 29th in Knoxville, TN Full schedules by
day and venue are now available online.
For more information and updates, visit
figuresfestival.org. Visit
mark.reboonline@marcribot.com. You can learn more about the We
Need a Union campaign at musicworkersalliance.org.
Big Ears Conversations about Music is a production of Big
Ears Festival. I'm your host Sarah Gilletti.
The show was produced by Matt Marowitz.
This episode was edited by Alex Arif with additional recording
and editing support from Vishal Nayak.
Ashley Capps is the executive and artistic director of Big
Ears. Thanks for listening and until
next time, keep those ears wide open.