1 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,960 Hi, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Metal 2 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,040 Mastermind Podcast. I am your host, Ken Cadellis. 3 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,360 And today we have a very special guest from Cordy Electronics, 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,600 His name is Tom Vaughn. Tom, why don't you say hello? 5 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,080 Hi, Ken, how you doing? I'm good. 6 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,000 It's really, really cool to have cordy electronics here today. 7 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:39,640 I have so many questions when it comes to headphones and 8 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:43,640 amplifiers and all this kind of stuff in the match between all 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,800 this. And it actually at a really 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,840 interesting time because as you guys know on Metal Mastermind 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,000 here I am a professor of audio engineering and audio technology 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,520 is such a passion of mine. And actually this week I was 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:03,000 just going over electromagnetism and microphone technology and 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,160 how all of this stuff plays into the quality of sound that we 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,000 have. And Cordy Electronics 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,360 specializes in headphone amps and also speaker amp fire 17 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,600 technology, which I thought would be a very interesting 18 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,760 conversation to have here. So, Tom, why don't you just give 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,440 a little back story about what Cord Electronics does and maybe 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,120 your own personal experience getting into it? 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,080 Absolutely. Sounds sounds good. 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:38,320 So here at Cord Electronics, we were founded in 1989 by John 23 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:42,960 Franks, the owner of the company and still our analog designer in 24 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,560 obviously small company classic in the garage kind of starting 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,120 out. So the first generation of power 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,840 amplifiers built by us were all built in John's garage. 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,720 And there are a few workers here still to this day that remember 28 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,840 working in that garage and and winding Transformers and all 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:00,280 this. Sort of. 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,120 Wow, amazing. Yeah, John actually comes from 31 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,800 an aviation background. He used to work for Marconi, 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,520 who's a military manufacturing plant just up the road from us 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,960 here designing power supplies and he specialized in switch 34 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,400 mode power supply designs and thought, well, you know what 35 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,800 industry really is lacking in efficiency. 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,080 This is in 1989 was the audio industry and he keen interest in 37 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,240 in listening to audio equipment and all that sort of stuff. 38 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,400 So he decided to build an amplifier and that amplifier 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,360 that he then got working and tested and and was all well and 40 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,320 good. He took to the BBC and he went 41 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,800 to the BBC and said just try this amplifier through a friend 42 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,720 who lived locally who also happened to design speakers for 43 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,160 the BBC. He said you need to take this to 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,400 the BBC. So he took the power amplifier 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,040 along to the BBC and to this day it's the fastest authorised 46 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,920 piece of technology the BBC have allowed because they were so 47 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:03,080 blown away with the quality they went, oh, this is amazing. 48 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,280 So instead of completely, completely gutting one of the 49 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,040 studios up in London, they decided to just replace the 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,520 power amplifiers and it was like night and day in that studio. 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,040 So that's that's how we started out providing power amplifiers 52 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,440 for the professional industry. Now again, back in the late 80s, 53 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,720 early 90's, the BBC dictated essentially what the studios 54 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,360 were to have installed as a main system. 55 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,280 So places across the world from there on with the BBC started 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,720 outgoing. OK, so how do we upgrade our 57 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,240 studios? And then it went to Abbey Road, 58 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,800 it went to Ayr, it went to British Grove, excuse me, 59 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,240 Metropolis, which are the biggest studios now in London. 60 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,720 And then from there it went international because what Abbey 61 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,280 Road had Skywalker Sound needed over in LA, sorry, over in San 62 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Francisco. So Skywalker Sound took it on. 63 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Then all of a sudden Sony took it on and it just grew and grew 64 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,600 and grew and grew and grew. So us as a business, that's how 65 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,360 we were, that's how we started out. 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,600 We were always a supplier of professional amplifiers and 67 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,200 installations within recording studios, mastering studios, all 68 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,600 that sort of stuff. So that's, that was how we 69 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,320 started out as a company. From there we looked and went, 70 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,520 Oh no, all of the studios have got power amplifiers, what do we 71 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,760 do now? So we've sort of saturated the 72 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,760 market a little bit with power amplifiers and went, well, 73 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,240 there's a hi-fi industry over there. 74 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,680 So should we go and see if we can make some money over there 75 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,960 as well, of which we have been doing ever since. 76 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,640 Now my job here at Cord Electronics is a sort of like a 77 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,880 two-part role. And I've, I mean, I've been 78 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,920 working here since I was 15, making cables, counting bits. 79 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Wow. Yeah, little bits from here and 80 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,200 there during during the school holidays. 81 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,040 It was like, OK, Tom, are you free? 82 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,240 I'm like, yeah, I'll come and work. 83 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,200 I mean, of course. So yeah, it was, I mean, 84 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,760 they've, they've treated me so, so fantastically well. 85 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,120 But I also did a sound engineering degree, so 86 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,400 specializing in mastering and audio electronics were my 2 sort 87 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,480 of roots within. Fascinating. 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,760 So I mean like art has really been like a a big family to you 89 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,800 for. Oh yeah, yes, very much. 90 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:22,320 Of your life. Very. 91 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,200 Much so that is so cool. And yeah, you know, it's 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,680 interesting because I came in to cord understanding it as a hi-fi 93 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,480 brand, not necessarily in the professional market, but its 94 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,000 roots really were in the professional. 95 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,080 So it shows how much influence you guys have had in other 96 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,800 markets to the point where, you know, newcomers think it's it 97 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,960 it, it started in Hi-fi. So that's really fascinating. 98 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,720 Exactly that I mean so I mean to this to this day. 99 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,400 So 1/2 of my drugs, so it's because because we're again, 100 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,080 we're already a small company, so quite a lot of us have got 101 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,640 multiple different roles. 1/2 of my job is here in the office in 102 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,840 the pump house manufacturing and building and repairing some of 103 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:06,400 the older power amplifiers and new power amplifiers for current 104 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,880 customers helping. I also help John Franks design 105 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,640 various other bits and bobs around. 106 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,360 But it's, but it's pretty much specifically just John. 107 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,280 He sort of goes, yeah, this is good, this works. 108 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:18,040 And then I sort of tweak it a little bit maybe for the 109 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,400 professional market and then of which leads me into the 110 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,120 second-half of my job, which is actually looking after our 111 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:25,600 professional clients around the world. 112 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,400 You might call it a sales role, but it's more like Technical 113 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,440 Support. I just go along and say, try 114 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,720 this and they listen to it and go, I want one. 115 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,760 I'm like, hey. Well, yeah, certainly I could 116 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,200 see the appeal and for, for contacts for anybody here. 117 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,000 Tom and I, we met at Mexico in the Soundcheck Expo and the Pan 118 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,120 American Audio Educators Conference, ex, you know, 119 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,960 exhibit where we were basically just in passing. 120 00:06:54,960 --> 00:07:00,800 I was I was already an artist with Odyssey and you guys are 121 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,680 very close friends with Odyssey. You. 122 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,120 I was actually told that you and Chris are are quite good 123 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,400 friends. We certainly are, indeed. 124 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,760 And that's, and that I feel like it's just such a beautiful thing 125 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,320 to see manufacturers, you know, sort of partnering up in this 126 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,640 way to provide just a quality solution for anybody who's 127 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,360 looking to do professional audio. 128 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,480 And all of our discussions during that time were 129 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,320 fascinating to me. And I'm always curious to know 130 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,520 more about this kind of stuff as a, as a very big nerd myself. 131 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:43,040 And I've been on, I guess you could say a bit of a quest for, 132 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,160 of course, finding what's the best solution for my studio. 133 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,760 And you know, I had actually a very a simple problem here that 134 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,320 needed some fixing, which is that I bought the wrong 135 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,560 headphone app. And for anybody who is working 136 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,840 with or has tried different types of headphone brands and 137 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,800 different types of impedances for headphones, you'll also have 138 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,560 discovered that headphone amps do matter and how they drive the 139 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,880 headphone. So I want to just start off here 140 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,320 with this conversation about the importance of headphone 141 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,520 selection for headphone amps. And you know, maybe can you 142 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,000 share some of your thoughts on your experience with that, Tom? 143 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:30,640 Of course, absolutely. Yeah. 144 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,720 So obviously headphones, I mean, again operating in sort of the 145 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,039 headphi industry and then looking at it from the 146 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:42,080 professional industry as well, different impedances have a huge 147 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,240 impact on the electronics and how the electronics goes about 148 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,760 driving those particular designs. 149 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,680 So these ones, these orders, the headphones that we are both 150 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:57,000 using, they're magnetic planer, which is a very thin foil with a 151 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,680 trace on it, which is very, very different to your standard 152 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,240 headphone design, which is your classic dynamic driver, bit like 153 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,160 a speaker, but on a much, much smaller scale. 154 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,440 You know, magnetic coil and then, sorry, a coil of wire in a 155 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,520 magnetic field. And then you change the coil and 156 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,440 then change the current in the coil in it and it drives the 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,880 headphone again, very, very different. 158 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,200 But saying that they have very different impedances across the 159 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,720 board. It depends on which sort of 160 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,360 headphone manufacturer you choose. 161 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Depends on kind of the, the sound quality of it and also how 162 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,520 easy or how difficult it is to drive. 163 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,880 Some say the harder the headphone to drive, the better 164 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,640 the sound quality, but that's not necessarily true because my 165 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,840 some of my favorite headphones are actually really easy to 166 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,120 drive. Specifically not I think it 167 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,880 might be even this set that I'm wearing at the moment. 168 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,360 This is work set. I have another one at home. 169 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,800 So, but we have, you know, various, various other bits and 170 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,520 bobs. So the higher the impedance, the 171 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,960 hard generally tends to be, sorry, the easier to drive ish. 172 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,040 It's sort of like a fine balance to be honest with you, but the 173 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,280 lower the impedance, the harder it is. 174 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,040 Like if you start dropping 20 ohms, 15 ohms, 10 ohms, all of a 175 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,560 sudden you're starting to look into speaker realm and you need 176 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:21,560 a whole bunch more current, a whole bunch more power available 177 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,920 to be actually to drive those cones in their entirety. 178 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Interesting because it's like it's sort of like a seesaw, 179 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:29,320 right? Yeah. 180 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,520 So you know, and for for for those of you who are not quite 181 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,600 familiar with electronic terms, impedance is resistance, right. 182 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,600 So if you were to picture it like like a highway, think of it 183 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,080 like a toll booth right in the middle of the highway. 184 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,920 So exactly it's, it's very, it's very similar in that way. 185 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,680 So if you have a low impedance, more more current is really kind 186 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:56,640 of desirable so that you can have all that flow reach your 187 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,960 headphones and drive them properly versus the opposite, 188 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:01,240 right? Which would take, you know, 189 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,960 maybe only a little bit of power in order to really drive it, 190 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,440 which is so fascinating to me because this balance, you know, 191 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,240 it's, it's a proportional balance. 192 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,640 You know, anybody who studies Ohm's law has this sort of 193 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:20,120 understanding, but you know, going into now a headphone amp 194 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,000 technology and how that actually powers this. 195 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,960 It's it's so interesting because I remember we were talking about 196 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:32,160 this and how you mentioned that the the the cord headphone amp 197 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,160 can actually change according to what it's plugged into. 198 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:37,520 Is, is this. Correct. 199 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,400 So, so essentially it doesn't sort of send a signal to the 200 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,120 headphones and engage the impedance. 201 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,360 There are bits of technology that do that. 202 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,760 But again, so this this actually harks to a lot of our designs 203 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,600 specifically is if you build them right the first time from 204 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,240 the ground up, you don't need to design compromises into the 205 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,200 final design. So, so bear with me for a second 206 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,600 because because it does get, I'll try to keep it as simple as 207 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,080 possible. But like our digital to analogue 208 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,040 converters, I'm sure we'll touch on this a little bit later on as 209 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,200 well. With regards to the FPGA versus 210 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,560 the standard DAC chip, our power amplifier designs, including our 211 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,160 digital to analogue converter driving circuits as it were, 212 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:28,000 they don't send a signal to be able to read the impedance. 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,840 Now there are other manufacturers that do that. 214 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,080 And by doing that, what they do is then change the output 215 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,040 impedance according to what the headphones read at. 216 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:43,960 Now output impedance is is. This is now getting really 217 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,280 difficult with regards to power amplifier designs. 218 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,720 Output impedance is is it is directly tied to damping factor, 219 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,000 which is how well an amplifier can actually control a speaker 220 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,960 cone across the frequency band. Now the lower the output 221 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:04,000 impedance, technically the better the power amplifier 222 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,280 design. This gives us the ability to 223 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,640 essentially control any cone at all across the board, no matter 224 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,840 whether it's a speaker cone coming down at one ohm, or 225 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,240 whether it's a speaker cone or a transmission line, or whether 226 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,880 it's a set headphones coming in at 600 ohms. 227 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,160 The lower the output means the more ability to control a wider 228 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,520 band of overall driver impedances. 229 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,800 Now what other manufacturers do is they try to read what the 230 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,880 headphones are and then change, potentially change the op amp, 231 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,560 change the output impedance accordingly because they've got 232 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,240 different gain settings. Now that's a that's a convenient 233 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,360 way of doing things, but they are limited to what that op amp 234 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,080 or what that amplifier design circuitry can do. 235 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,880 Then swap the gain out and go, OK, well, maybe we need this 236 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,320 gain for this level of impedance for this headphone. 237 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,080 Great idea. Not to mention that like every 238 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,080 single piece of electronic is affecting the signal in some 239 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,880 way, shape or form. Exactly that, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 240 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,560 Yep, a spot on, of course. But by doing that, what they're 241 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:16,120 doing is they've gone OK. So it's this, how can we build a 242 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,440 compromise to counter the fact that we have a circuit that 243 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,040 can't necessarily drive the headphones properly? 244 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,920 So they've gone OK, We're going to up the game for this side 245 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,480 kind of headphone. We're going to up the game for 246 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,000 this kind of headphone, whereas what we do here at Cord 247 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,720 Electronics is because we design the amplifier from the ground 248 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,920 up, we don't use other people's manufacturing designs or 249 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,560 concepts or anything like that. We have a ridiculously low 250 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,440 output impedance to be able to control any impedance of 251 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,120 headphone or speaker or anything like that across the board 252 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,760 without any hesitation. So it's literally a case of just 253 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,560 plugging it in and the amp will go, OK, yeah, cool, this is it. 254 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,160 And just turn the volume up. If it's harder to drive, just 255 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,360 keep on going. It basically it's like because 256 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,160 you guys have so much current that's going through that port 257 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,240 that basically your volume is the impedance. 258 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,120 Essentially, yes, yeah. So I mean we, we, we, we control 259 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,840 the the actual small signal going into the power amplifier. 260 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,560 But yes, fundamentally that is that is what we're doing we're. 261 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,720 That's amazing. Yeah, it's, it's just a more 262 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,760 simpler, even I would say even more pure approach to, to just 263 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,760 giving as much power as possible and then gauging it yourself, 264 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,880 what feels right in your headphones. 265 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,920 That makes a lot of sense to me because like, how could you 266 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,800 build, you know, one for all? I mean, it's, it's really just 267 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,920 going to have to be let's just open the floodgates and you 268 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,320 become the dam essentially to control. 269 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,000 That that's exactly it. It's spot on. 270 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,720 So certainly with, you know, with regards to Alto, I have one 271 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,080 here. So the headphone amp that we 272 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,880 were just talking about this one, I mean, it's, it's a, it's 273 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,360 a power amplifier as well. It, you know, it can do 50 watts 274 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,760 into four ohms. It's, it's unbelievably 275 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,680 powerful. So we've had to attenuate the 276 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,880 headphone output to about half the amount of power that the 277 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,280 actual amplifier can offer. But by actually having that much 278 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,040 power available, it can drive any headphone on the market with 279 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,600 regards to any level of impedance, but also have an 280 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,000 unbelievable amount of headroom available as well. 281 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,920 So it's kind of nice it's not working very hard when you've 282 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,600 got headphones plugged in and that's what gives it the ability 283 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,360 to give you the most accurate and and unbelievably high 284 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,040 controlled. That's not English, but that 285 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,480 kind of, you know what I'm trying to say, like the timing 286 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,760 is everything so. You know, one, one quality that 287 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,400 I certainly felt with cord electronics is it's an 288 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,800 effortlessness to reproduce the electrical signal. 289 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:51,520 So it, it just sounded more natural to me, which I think is 290 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,960 very hard to replicate. So kudos to you guys. 291 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,120 I mean, you guys have been doing it already for a long time. 292 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:02,680 But man, it's definitely always amazing to hear 'cause you know, 293 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,240 I've been, I've been in mastering rooms, I've been in, 294 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,160 you know, recording studios and broadcasts and live sound and 295 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,839 all these different applications of audio and this kind of tech 296 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,319 with headphones always intrigued me. 297 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,319 And, and, and also of course with speaker amplifiers as well, 298 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,800 it's just a fascinating part of the side of audio of, you know, 299 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,839 sound reproduction that I think gets a little bit understated 300 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,840 sometimes or in other, in other markets when it comes to 301 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,440 audiophile. Sometimes I believe it's even 302 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,760 overemphasized in some ways that some product manufacturers might 303 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,160 even blow smoke in in their clients. 304 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,280 Yeah, you know, so. So to speak. 305 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,040 Of course. Yeah, that's a nice way of 306 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,800 putting it. It's it's one of those it's it's 307 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,920 being the guy that builds the amplifiers, services the 308 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,520 amplifiers, helps John develop the amplifiers, all this sort of 309 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,840 stuff. And and being so engrossed in 310 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,760 the amplifier technology, I know quite a lot of various bits of 311 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,040 what's going on now. Lots, so many people in the not 312 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,280 just the professional industry, but the hifi industry, the audio 313 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,320 industry, full stop. They see a power amplifier go, 314 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,800 it's a power amplifier. What do you want it to do? 315 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,600 So they go, you want me to spend how much on a power amplifier? 316 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,800 I can get one for a couple of 100 bucks down the road, which 317 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,720 is 4 times the amount of power. And it's the way that that power 318 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,680 is delivered so accurately and with with a ridiculously high 319 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,720 damping factor. So that again, I come back to 320 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,040 that, that ability to control the be it headphones or a 321 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,560 speaker driver timing is everything with our ears. 322 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,480 That's, you know, that's how we can tell anything. 323 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,520 It's how we tell 3D orientation with regards to sound. 324 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,360 It's it's the micro nanoseconds between our two ears and the way 325 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:55,120 that our brain interprets it is, is all down to that accuracy. 326 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:57,920 And that's what we strive for here at Chord electronics is 327 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,160 just speed. I. 328 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,000 Have a question, so of course damping factor because I've I've 329 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,680 I've heard the term before but could you equate damping factor 330 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:14,400 to like the brakes in a vehicle? Yes, I'm just trying, yes, 331 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,840 essentially if, if you really want to look at it, it's a bit 332 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,200 more like suspension to be honest with you, because it's, 333 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,360 yeah, it's, it's how quickly a damping factor can be in 334 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,400 multiple things. There's there's damping factor 335 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,360 in electrical terms, there's damping factor in a physical 336 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,960 term with regards to speaker currents, for example, the 337 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,240 rubber, the tension that holds the, the, the cone in place has 338 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,280 a damping factor it has. And essentially it results in 339 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,280 the ability to either stop and start the cone or give way to 340 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,280 the cone stopping and starting. So it's the same as sort of like 341 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,080 suspension, whether you have really hard suspension like a 342 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,440 BMW or whether you have really soft suspension in like a 343 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,440 Bentley or something like that. You know, you're driving over 344 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,040 potholes and it just feels like you're going, you let this, 345 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:09,560 whereas in a, in a BMW. But that speed that that is 346 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,680 actually for a, for a speaker cone will deliver you more 347 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,080 accurate timing between the two speaker cones and and our ears. 348 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,000 So actually the lower the damping factor, the more wishy 349 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,960 washy it becomes, the more Bentley and the more comfortable 350 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,640 more loose. Yeah, the, the more artificial 351 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,120 bloom in the low end the speaker's going to represent and 352 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,160 it's going to feel like it's, it's honestly, it's a thing. 353 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,360 People love people. Absolutely. 354 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,440 So valve amplifiers, for example, I have a lot of respect 355 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,160 for them. Glowing light bulbs look pretty, 356 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,120 feel great, sound wonderful for probably about half an hour. 357 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,880 It feels like you're sitting, sitting in a chair with a 358 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,920 whiskey and a cigar and you're just, you know, big high backed 359 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,520 chair. And it's all like, Oh yeah, this 360 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,880 is this is lovely. But it's only for our for us as 361 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,160 humans, as a perception, a maximum of sort of half an hour 362 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,800 of listening 45 minutes before the ears go, you know what? 363 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,400 Something ain't quite right though. 364 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,880 It's like having an audio cuddle, but you can only have it 365 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,920 for so long. Whereas the higher the accurate 366 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,120 transient response of a power amplifier to be able to then 367 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:22,120 control a speaker cone, the more natural it becomes listening. 368 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:24,640 Now it might be harder to experience. 369 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,560 It might be like, oh, it's harsh, or it's all, there's too 370 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,000 much information, all this sort of stuff. 371 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,400 Well, actually that's not true. What you're hearing is what is 372 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,480 meant to be happening within the music. 373 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,400 And by giving you all of that timing information, it gives you 374 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,600 a better 3D perspective of the depth of field, not just your 375 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,200 stereo field, but the depth of field. 376 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,480 And a strange one, I know. And it sounds a bit hi-fi, to be 377 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,560 honest with you. But like how tall the sound can 378 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,400 get and how all of a sudden you're looking at listening to 379 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,800 an orchestra, for example, and you can pick out the second desk 380 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,280 of the second violins. You can pick out the third 381 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,240 trumpet or trombone coming from over here rather than just it 382 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,960 sort of sounding like a big orchestra. 383 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,160 And then that leads to longevity of listening experience. 384 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,480 So you can sit down for an hour and a half, you can sit down for 385 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040 two hours listening to this kind of stuff and you don't get 386 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,120 fatigue because it's more natural rather than. 387 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,240 Fascinating. That that wishy washy effect. 388 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,640 I mean, it, it, it makes a a ton of sense with, with transient 389 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,200 information, that's where most of the information that we 390 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,760 recognize with instruments, placement, spatiality, it all 391 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,560 exists in the transient. That's like our audio info 392 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,960 bubble, right? It's at the head. 393 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,000 All that, you know, sustain and all that good stuff, which, you 394 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,160 know, I, I, it's not a problem for speakers to reproduce that 395 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,240 information. But for, for, for the transient, 396 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,480 yeah, that's, it's all about timing and speed, right. 397 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:58,160 So those that are a lot more LAX and have a more quote, UN quote, 398 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,440 romantic feeling, they are, yeah. 399 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,240 They're not designed for critical listening. 400 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,400 They're designed for easy listening, which is a very 401 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,080 different experience. It's so, you know, knowledge of, 402 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,880 of choosing your speakers really comes down to cause I've, it's 403 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,480 always, it's always about preference in many ways. 404 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,160 But then there are some cases where it's specifically about, 405 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,120 you know, clinical detail that depending what you're do using 406 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,560 the speaker for, it does matter, which is where we start to 407 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,160 separate the pro market from the hi-fi market in some ways. 408 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,200 So and so that's fascinating. And I mean, behind all of that, 409 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,880 I mean, you know, let's get into some of the digital to audio 410 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,600 conversion that you guys are doing because this was something 411 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,560 new to me too that I didn't understand before we started 412 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,280 actually speaking on this subject. 413 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,360 And what DAC chips are doing differently than what you've 414 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,400 mentioned, which is an FPGA? What? 415 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,440 Well, let's just start there. What is an FPGA First off? 416 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,400 And then what is a DAC chip and how do they different? 417 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,040 OK. So yeah, diving down into the 418 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,320 digital route with regards to called electronics and the and 419 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,200 the way that we do things. So an FPGA is a field 420 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,080 programmable gate array. It's essentially a electronic 421 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,200 blank canvas. It's a processor that's got 422 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,480 millions of transistors in it that are programmable rather 423 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,600 than. So in a standard PC, when you 424 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,360 look at a processor, it's a, it's a million billions of of 425 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,040 transistors operating at billions of times a second. 426 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,080 But it's, it's only will do what it's told to do, input in and 427 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,800 input out. Whereas a, an FPGA, it's 428 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,280 essentially a processor, but you program those transistors to sit 429 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,360 in a certain way and then that's it. 430 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,600 They're set. You can reprogram them if you 431 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,680 wanted to, but rather than information in information out, 432 00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,840 they sort of go information in and it's like, what do I need to 433 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,360 do with this? Oh, I know what I need to do 434 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:02,600 with this. Then process it. 435 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,320 So it's like a static chip rather than a dynamic. 436 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,000 Exactly that, yeah. So that that's what an FBGA 437 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,400 does. Now, an FBGA can be used for 438 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760 anything at all. There's a really pretty high 439 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,200 demand for them at the moment in the world, shall we say, for 440 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:26,560 certain military applications over in Europe, for example. 441 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,640 So there's, there's a pretty high demand for Fpgas for that 442 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,880 reason, you know, flying helicopters, you can drive a 443 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,920 crane, you can operate a remote satellite with it or something, 444 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,800 anything, literally anything. And what we've done is we've 445 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,800 dedicated all of that power for the sole purpose of converting 446 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,760 digital music to analogue music just for our own experience. 447 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,680 So that is, that's an FPGA, Zach. 448 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:01,960 We are one of, I would say two companies, maybe three, that use 449 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,920 an FPGA for the sole purpose of actually converting digital 450 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,120 through to analogue signals. Now lots of other manufacturers 451 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,240 declare themselves as all, we're an FPGA DAC and it's sort of 452 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,680 like, are you though, or are you just using the FPGA as a control 453 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,600 point, which is another. It's a very sort of, it's a 454 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,360 keyword. It's a hot word that people were 455 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:24,880 starting to clock onto and go, Oh yeah, we're an FPGA DAC 456 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,280 company. I'm like, are you though? 457 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:33,320 So it's, it could be a bit, you know, a bit risky out there, but 458 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,640 so, so anyway, so we, we do use it for the digital to analogue 459 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,240 filtering and processing and all this sort of stuff. 460 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,760 Whereas every other manufacturer in the world, they are subject 461 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,840 to the big guns and their designs where they go. 462 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,400 I've designed a DAC chip, say for example, Texas Instruments. 463 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,240 I'm not going to, I'm, I'm not afraid of naming names because 464 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,920 it's one of the biggest manufacturers in the world of 465 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,800 electronic components. Texas Instruments will turn 466 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,760 around and say, I've designed a DAC chip and it's amazing by the 467 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,560 way. And these are the statistics and 468 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,200 you go, OK, that's pretty good, but it's not as good as one of 469 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,160 ours. But the other manufacturers will 470 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,520 go, well, this is the best in the world that we can buy 471 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,280 because that's, that's it. That's so every high end 472 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,080 manufacturer will buy one of these DAC chips And the only way 473 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,400 to improve or change the sound quality is to change the 474 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,600 electronics around it. But the fundamental part of it, 475 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,600 the actual digital to analogue conversion is still limited 476 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,280 across all other manufacturers to this one design, which this 477 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,760 one manufacturer has come up with, whereas we've gone down 478 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,200 the other route and gone. That's not what we want. 479 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,840 We don't want to use these guys because we know how to do it 480 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600 better. The the the actual digital to 481 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,280 analogue converter. Our our digital programmer here, 482 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,880 Robert Watts, There's loads and loads of information out about 483 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:02,880 how he does his designs and and all this sort of stuff. 484 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,000 You can find it online that dives into the real technical 485 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,480 insurance and outs because we have No Fear about explaining 486 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,240 how we do things, why we do things and the way that we do 487 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,040 things. Rob's like this is it. 488 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,160 The only thing that is protected is the code. 489 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,320 So that's, you know, it's 256 bit encoded. 490 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,040 It's good luck to whoever wants to try and get into that. 491 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,920 So, yeah, so that's, so that's every other manufacturer is 492 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,440 subject to these standard DAC chips. 493 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Now they are designed to a price point, which is why they are 494 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,280 limited. Their timing is OK, their 495 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,080 distortion is pretty good, but still OK. 496 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,400 And other bits and bobs that are filtering is just OK. 497 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,040 There's nothing really that stands out about those fun, 498 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,480 those, those designs which they then produce mass produce for, 499 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,440 for the market. Whereas what we do again coming 500 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,560 down to the FPGA thing, because we have absolute control over 501 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,080 everything. We have better timing, we have 502 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,600 better distortion, we have better accuracy when it comes to 503 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,680 noise floor modulation is a is a huge thing that we are the only 504 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,240 manufacturer that is eliminated noise floor modulation. 505 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,520 So just to dive into that really quickly, because that's that's 506 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,560 actually a pretty fundamental part about what makes. 507 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,280 Very curious, what is? What is noise much like? 508 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,160 So noise floor modulation. So if we if we were in a room 509 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,840 talking together and or somebody, or we were sitting 510 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,000 down listening to somebody playing the guitar, or we were 511 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,600 listening to classical music and orchestra, a small, small 10 512 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,480 piece band or anything like that, the noise floor stays 513 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,120 where it is. OK, So we can have a 514 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,680 conversation. The noise floor does this and it 515 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,480 goes, I'm the noise floor and I'm flat, I'm down here. 516 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,560 Noise floor ventilation. When it comes to digital, to 517 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,760 analogue conversion, what happens when you can start 518 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,520 converting the digital signal into the analogue one? 519 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,880 The noise floor starts pumping like this. 520 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,520 For every digital signal, every pulse, the noise floor starts 521 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,320 pumping like this. And like every sample. 522 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:19,480 You get pretty much yes. So for us as human beings, we 523 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,800 can't, we, you can't go, Oh, I can hear the noise floor 524 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,680 modulation. It's, it's bumping, it's, it's 525 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,840 moving up and down. But what we suffer from when 526 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,280 listening to noise floor modulation, when the noise floor 527 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,640 is pumping up and down like this is listening fatigue. 528 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,320 And it happens quickly. You'd be surprised at how not OK 529 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,480 it is to listen to music through a really bad DAC because you can 530 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,800 only, you'll only be able to listen to it sort of like 1520 531 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,760 minutes and go, OK, this sounds and all of a sudden your ears 532 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,560 will go, everything will start becoming really flat. 533 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,640 Everything will start coming like it's really shallow. 534 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,640 The noise, the stereo field starts coming in and you just 535 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,400 sort of, you don't realise, but it's a subconscious thing to do 536 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,400 with noise form modulation. And this is what happens. 537 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,880 Whereas if you eliminate that noise form modulation, so you 538 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,160 move it from doing this to down here, it becomes natural. 539 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,200 And for us as human beings, all of a sudden we're listening to 540 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,400 music. So that removes that problem 541 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,720 psycho acoustically out of the equation entirely. 542 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,320 And that's a proven thing. That's that's that's something 543 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,000 which is. So let me ask you a question 544 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,960 about this, because this is, this is a different kind of 545 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,320 noise that I that, that you're talking about. 546 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,160 As far as what I'm perceiving here. 547 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,080 It's, it's the noise that rides the wave rather than let's say 548 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,080 ground home that we're talking about here, right, 'cause noise 549 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,880 in that sense, that's, that's from your power supply, it's 550 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,600 coming from the wall, right? It's circulating the entire 551 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,120 building versus what is actually in the voltage of the signal. 552 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,640 Yes, yes. Interesting. 553 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:56,600 Spot on, spot on. Yeah. 554 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,720 So it's not your standard. So, so, so for example, if we're 555 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,080 in a loud room, I'm not talking about the noise floor, that 556 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,080 would then just the noise floor's gone up. 557 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,840 But that noise floor, it also that noise floor, it's so it's 558 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,480 an electrical noise floor essentially. 559 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,880 It's the the one that I'm talking about, not a noise 560 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,200 floor. But also you've got to remember 561 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,120 that noise floor, even if it is loud, it won't start unnaturally 562 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,160 doing this. It's loud and then it's quiet, 563 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,200 and then it's loud, and then it might go quiet again. 564 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:30,280 So us as human beings overall, we're not used to the whole 565 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360 pumping situation, the whole noise floor modulation 566 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,480 experience. It's so unnatural for us. 567 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,040 And it's a pretty fundamental flaw in pretty much all designs 568 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,640 of Dax. That's amazing. 569 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,480 Holy crap. So the FPGA, I'm, I'm assuming 570 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,920 because is it, is it because it's just it's a simpler chip. 571 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,400 It it's, it's got it's. It's it's about 5000 times more 572 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,960 powerful than a standard DAC chip. 573 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,320 Wow. So, OK, so because there's 574 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,760 actually an increase in power, you have more headroom and 575 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,760 because there isn't more complicated integrated chip 576 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,800 design work happening, it's literally it's like it's already 577 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,320 got its instructions. So it just does the thing very 578 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,720 quickly, very simply. That's that's, that's quite, 579 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,160 quite amazing. So I mean, that comes down as to 580 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,840 why lots of people say like, oh, why don't you make these? 581 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,680 So, so this product's mojo Mojo 2 is our, is our little, our 582 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,920 portable one. People would ask, oh, it's 583 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,360 battery bad. They think, oh, cool, it is 584 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,160 battery powered, which means it doesn't set power from your 585 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,520 phone or your laptop or whatever the case may be if you are 586 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,360 portable. But the FPGA requires so much 587 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,160 power that if you plug this, if you plug your phone into it, I 588 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,600 think it would probably drain it in about an hour tops if you 589 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,680 were using it at the same time. So there's, you know, there's, 590 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,880 there's a lot of power going on in this, which is why it is the 591 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,400 size they are, the size they are. 592 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,000 We could get them smaller the size they are because we're 593 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,200 limited to battery technology got. 594 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,840 It so that's, does that mean that because of a lack of power, 595 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,880 because I, I had this experience when I was listening to the Mojo 596 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,760 versus the Hugo versus the Alto, I said, wow, well, I mean like 597 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,800 it, it gets better definitely. And is it because of how much 598 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,080 power you give the FPGA? It's, it's not just that it is 599 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,800 actually the size of the FPGA as well. 600 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,280 So each FPGA is has its own memory cache, it has its own 601 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,159 quantity of transistors within it that we can then program and 602 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,400 of which requires more heat sinking as well. 603 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,320 So the bigger the processor, the more heat sinking it requires, 604 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,760 which is why we jump up in size. So from Mojo, which is our 605 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,320 portable one, we jump to the huge go to that I'm actually 606 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,600 using as my digital to analog converter to talk to you at the. 607 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,159 Moment you're spoiled. To be honest with you, you're 608 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:52,120 incredibly high definition, so it's great, fascinating. 609 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,080 Oh my God. So I mean like so everything 610 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,400 that cord has been putting out now has been integrating this 611 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,360 type of technology even in your your top tier like products as 612 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,080 well. It's the same technology. 613 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,080 Yeah, absolutely. Size. 614 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,360 It's exactly that, exactly that. So with regards to the we do, we 615 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,160 do have, we sort of have like 2 branches that we specialize in. 616 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,920 I mean, every company has an analog and a digital side. 617 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,720 It just happens that we're the best in the world for the 618 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,200 digital side and one of the best in the world for the analog side 619 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,560 as well. So the digital side, we have 620 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,400 Mojo 2, Hugo two. We jump up to Hugo TT 2, which 621 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,120 is the the DAC that you tried out when we're at sound check, 622 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,280 that's square one. And then we have our reference 623 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,880 one. Dave, it's about this big. 624 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:42,360 I don't can't can't display one at the moment, unfortunately. 625 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,440 And then we go sort of go down the analogue route side of 626 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,840 things where we have our power amplifier designs. 627 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,680 So that's where the Alto comes into it. 628 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:56,080 So we have Alto, we have various various degrees of of power with 629 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,720 regards to monoblocks or stereo units, 500 watts per channel, 630 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,400 750 watts per channel, thousand Watt monoblocks. 631 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,640 And then we jump up to the to the biggest power amplifiers we 632 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,520 make, which are about two and a half 1000 watts per channel, but 633 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,080 they require, they require a lot of fare, a lot of a lot of 634 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,880 aluminium, shall we say so. Yeah, absolutely. 635 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,680 Well now does does cord also offer like full on just 636 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,920 converters and stuff like that for multi channel pro audio 637 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,800 tracking and stuff like that? Not yet. 638 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,160 So at the moment everything is everything is stereo. 639 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,320 Everything we do is stereo. So Rob's been working on various 640 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,920 projects, all this sort of stuff. 641 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,880 We operate a digital, we, we create or manufacture a what I 642 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,080 like to call a digital to digital converter. 643 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,080 So it's called the M scaler which takes the this FPGA 644 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,520 technology that you find in here and uses it in the digital 645 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,960 realm. So we take a 44.1 kHz file 16 646 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,480 bit and it's a sounds a bit like up sampling, but it's not 647 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,360 because it uses out what it is, but it uses our technology to 648 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,360 interpret which is what digital to analog conversion is to 649 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,200 interpret what the next set of samples should be. 650 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,480 And it takes that 4444 one 16 bit and it converts it up to 651 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,600 705.6 kHz, 56 bits. So the dynamic range goes 652 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,640 through the roof as well, as well as the sample rate, which 653 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,920 of which any of our converters can cope with. 654 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,000 You can Chuck it into this one. It will go all the way up to 768 655 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,600 kHz. So super, super advanced 656 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,000 technology. I can't remember where I was 657 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,800 going that that train. Oh, that train of thought. 658 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,960 So Rob's, Rob's, we have that product. 659 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,440 We've had that product for a few years. 660 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,120 Rob's now working on I another product. 661 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,360 We kind of launched it last year in Munich, high end that also 662 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,920 has an analogue to digital converter on as well. 663 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,760 Now that's something which we've never really touched before. 664 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,440 But as we are exploring that route, it gives us the 665 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,600 opportunity to then start thinking about, OK, so if we 666 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,800 have a two in two out, maybe then we could do a four in, four 667 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,160 out. And then maybe we can Daisy 668 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,040 chain them up. And then all of a sudden you 669 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,880 have a 16 in out and it's all like, oh, OK, well, this all 670 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,720 starts making sense. We've explored down the route of 671 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,600 with regards to studios and all this sort of stuff. 672 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,640 You know, from the from the historical background that that 673 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,520 we have, I've got a lot of friends in the industry, a lot 674 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,600 of high end studios that are using various different methods 675 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,280 to transport their digital signals right back to the old 676 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,600 days of AES through to Dante and Maddie and all this sort of 677 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,480 stuff. So we're exploring down the 678 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,040 Dante route at the moment as well, of which the learning 679 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,120 curve for us because it's not something we've ever explored 680 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,360 before, but it's it's going very well. 681 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,040 And we have a working prototype product that uses currently 2 682 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,560 channels of Dante. But saying that it's so easy to 683 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,880 convert that into a multi channel 80 and eight out, for 684 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,040 example. So yes, there's there's stuff on 685 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,600 the books, there's stuff which we are working towards and the 686 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,240 whole point, the whole part of being a manufacturer isn't just 687 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,040 to keep on reproducing the same stuff, it's it's thinking about 688 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,440 what the next step is and where the. 689 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,200 Technology yeah, that's fabulous because I I, you know, this is 690 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,280 probably one of those things that is a surprise out of a 691 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,240 company that I misunderstood, but what it really was about. 692 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,720 And I think it's just such a really cool piece of technology 693 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,320 to push this kind of tech, you know, tech forward that others 694 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,520 haven't really quite caught on yet. 695 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,480 Because you know, this has been a question of mine for a while 696 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,400 is like, you know, how can DAX improve beyond going into 697 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,120 something like DSD, which I know you've actually talked about to 698 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,960 me as there are some flaws in DSD and I think it has something 699 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,160 to do with this noise floor modulation. 700 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,360 Am I correct in? Assuming that, yeah, yeah, 701 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,440 absolutely. So, I mean, it's a fascinating 702 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,280 thing, DSD. It was originally designed as a 703 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,520 storage format. For studios to go, OK, cool, 704 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,040 we're just going to convert this to DSD and we can store it away. 705 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:18,440 Large file sizes, but what was perceived at the time as the the 706 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:24,200 highest quality available. But it turns out it's there is 707 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,880 there is some question marks over it again. 708 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,360 Rob actually has a whole presentation, an hour long 709 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,240 presentation about DSD, which is very interesting if you really 710 00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,440 want to dive into the depths of the, the technical side of 711 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:41,040 things. But but the biggest problem, I 712 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,680 mean, obviously we as a manufacturer, we have to make 713 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:45,760 products that are DSD compatible. 714 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,880 All of our products are DSD 512 compatible. 715 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,240 So you know, right up to ridiculous sample rates. 716 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,080 But we as a manufacturer generally, I said we, I stand 717 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,440 corrected me as a Thomas Vaughan, prefer PCM for some 718 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,040 technical reasons, shall we say? It's certainly more practical. 719 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,920 It's Oh yes, unbelievably more practical. 720 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,320 Yeah. I mean, I mean, imagine trying 721 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,920 to record a session in DSD, like, no, that take wasn't any 722 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,320 good and I can't edit it do it again. 723 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,960 So it's it's great for a classical set, for example, or 724 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,960 if you're recording an orchestra, which is like a live 725 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,680 recording. OK, there are there are 726 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,680 applications for it, but there there are some bits like the the 727 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:37,880 the bit depth is a is a big flaw and the very, very high 728 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,480 frequency spike shall we say they can alias down into the 729 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,840 audio spectrum can can be a bit of a problem when it comes to 730 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,160 listening and converting digital to analogue signal. 731 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,960 So your standard DAC chip coming back to those other 732 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,760 manufacturers, if you Chuck DSD through them, then there's a 733 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,440 good chance that that DS, DS probably got something going on 734 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,760 in the audio spectrum which it shouldn't be doing. 735 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,680 So which is why we have various different filters and all of our 736 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,440 products for listening to DSD. So it's, so is it fair to assume 737 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:17,520 that Cord and yourself Tom believe that it's not 738 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:25,200 necessarily the format of either PCM or DSD that's really the 739 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,320 issue? It's it's the the way that it's, 740 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,040 it's being converted to that format that really lies in its 741 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,680 problems, right? Fundamentally, yes. 742 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,720 Interesting the. Design concept behind DSD is, 743 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,920 is, is brilliant. It's certainly one way of of 744 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,480 going. OK, so how can we get this at 745 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,240 the best sample rate we possibly can? 746 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,320 And it is an unbelievably high sample rate. 747 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,440 You know DSD 64 is 2.8 megahertz, right? 748 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,840 But it's a bit depth of one, but it's 2.8 megahertz. 749 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,400 So you got a lot of samples for one second, whereas obviously 750 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,680 PCM coming in at 44.1, which is why there is a good argument for 751 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,640 DSD, but there's also a good argument for having a decent 752 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,960 deck if you listen to the SD. So now, so then my final 753 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,880 question on this DSD topic, Do you think this FPGA technology 754 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,920 is something that's missing from DSD or is it something that is a 755 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,000 bigger tackle or big bigger, bigger obstacle to tack? 756 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,040 I think it's, it's not, so it's not just FBI mean it's a, it's a 757 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,920 difficult one because obviously I'm going to say, you know that 758 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,440 our FPGA DAX are going to be the best at converting DSD because 759 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,320 of the way that the Rob has the filters available for DSD 760 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,200 listening. But it's not just that, it's 761 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:47,440 it's the any, any manufacturer could implement the filters that 762 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,480 we use within our designs for listening to DSD. 763 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,840 They're just pretty simple high frequency roll off filters. 764 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,600 Other manufacturers might do it. There might be some out there 765 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,640 that I'm unaware of. So I confess, you know, I don't 766 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,320 go through every single manufacturer and say this one 767 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,840 hasn't got this, this one hasn't got this because we all make 768 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,320 great gear and we wouldn't be where we are without other 769 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,440 manufacturers making equivalently good gear. 770 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:14,520 It's all about preference. So yes and no is the answer to 771 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,160 your question with regards to is it an FPGA that makes a 772 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,360 difference to DSD conversion. It helps, but there are the 773 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,080 people that could do the same thing if they knew what was 774 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,840 going on within the conversion of the DSD. 775 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:29,120 Got it. Wow. 776 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,400 Well, you know, Tom, this has been such an enlightening 777 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,880 conversation. I certainly learned more about 778 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,200 headphones and headphone amp and speaker amp technology today, 779 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,600 and I'm sure that whoever's listening on the Metal 780 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,760 Mastermind podcast has learned the same. 781 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:48,240 You know, here at Metal Mastermind, we are all about 782 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:50,560 education for the modern musician. 783 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,840 So without further ado, this is at a point in our conversation 784 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,080 where I just want to tell the audience here on Metal 785 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,160 Mastermind you'll find resources for audio education, music 786 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,040 education, music business. There's a lot of exciting things 787 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,480 happening at Metal Mastermind, so stay tuned for all the things 788 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,480 that are coming up, but do check out our 789 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,840 onlinecourses@metalmastermind.com. And again, Tom, thank you so 790 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,680 much for your time today from Cordy Electronics. 791 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,480 I would love to keep this conversation going, so maybe 792 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,240 sometime in the future we can have you invited back to the 793 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:25,520 show. I can talk a little bit more 794 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,480 about this kind of stuff. I think it's fascinating. 795 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,600 Of course, there's a fair amount we haven't touched on, so yes, 796 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,080 let's return. You know 111 final question and 797 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,920 you could either say yes or no, but do cables matter in an 798 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,200 audio? File you. 799 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,160 You had some keywords there at the end of your sentence, so the 800 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,160 answer is yes. So you know. 801 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,600 That. Maybe, maybe that could be 802 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,560 another subject for another day and. 803 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,200 I would be again, happy to talk about that because that's that's 804 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,200 something that's something which we as a couple of the thing. 805 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:06,880 OK, so very, very quickly we're Am I allowed to swear? 806 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,640 Yes, that's OK. We're in no bullshit company, so 807 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,880 there's your answer. Amazing. 808 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,040 Amazing. Well, thanks so much, Tom. 809 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,920 I really appreciate your time today. 810 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,680 And without further ado, cheers everybody and we'll see you next 811 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:22,920 time.