Hello mate, hello again. How are you?
I'm doing really well. I'm doing really well.
Excellent yourself. Very well mate, very well.
I've been very much looking for this is number 30.
You need to see what it is #30. Episode 30. 30 Really look
forward to this one mate. We've got Haley and Amy from Sen
Sanctuary. Let us learn 2 is that Yeah.
Yeah, that is great. Thank.
You for having us. No, thank you for for coming
approaching us about. It.
Yeah, absolutely. You guys, as far as this white
papers are concerned, you guys have kind of been on the inside,
haven't you? Yeah, just a bit.
Just a bit you've been. On the inside, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, we have. So yeah, do.
You want to kind of tell us a little bit about what the
process, how long it's actually been going on, how long you've
been involved for, and then you're probably going to tell us
how. You feel how you feel.
Shall I go? Shall I go, Amy?
You go first. OK, yeah, so as you all know, we
all, so we started campaigning, we did the Fight for Ordinary
rally and it was, it was really good timing because it was just
the time when Georgia Gould was put on as MP for Schools
Minister, sorry, not MP, Minister for Schools.
And so she attended the rally and it was after that having
spoken to her and we started having meetings, didn't we, with
what turned out to be the Send Improvement group members.
And then it was in November that she said, OK, now we want to
make this official, an official group where we want to meet
every week. So we basically have been
meeting every week since probably the end of November to
the date of the release last week.
And whilst we weren't really, to be honest, we weren't told
exactly what they were planning, not until probably we got a
little bit more of an idea a couple of weeks ago, didn't we?
But until then it was kind of right.
This is, these are the areas we want to talk about.
So we were given sort of high level kind of topics and we had
to give our views on those, to give them guidance as to
whatever they ended up deciding and obviously make it completely
clear we were not decision makers.
We had absolutely nothing to do with it.
We didn't get to choose what even topics we spoke about in
the meetings, but we obviously could get a sense of the
direction that they were going from those meetings.
Wow, Yeah, OK. That that's that's really
important part to push is that you guys weren't decision
makers. Unfortunately.
Yeah, you were essentially you, you were kind of sounding boards
for, for the community as well as you could be.
You can't keep everybody happy. You were just trying to do the
best you could possibly do with the knowledge you add and kind
of use your influence to try and try and get everybody's kids in
the best place they could be. And I imagine that's a bit of a
balancing act because you, you want to push.
But again, you have to be very mindful that if you push too
hard, piss people off, that door that's been open for you to get
involved could very easily get shut.
And it's really important that there is someone representing
parents on that side of the room, and not just charities or
either they're like businesses, aren't they, inside the rooms?
It's important that there are parent voices.
Yeah. And to be fair, because we
weren't, I think we pushed probably harder than others,
definitely because we could, right.
We had, we had nothing to worry about.
And to be fair to the minister, she took that every time.
Like there were times where we did have some pretty strong
conversations, to put it politely.
And and strong facial expressions.
Very amazing. But never at any time did we
feel like, oh, we've gone too far or anything like that, or
the minister made us feel like we couldn't do that.
So like, I, I know there's a lot of sort of angst when it comes
to the government and MPs and the way they work, but I kind of
feel like we need to give credit where it's due.
Georgia Gold did do very well with that.
Like she did take on board everything that was being said.
She was happy to be challenged and whilst we didn't always
agree on anything, everything, that at least we felt we could
say it, yeah, which was quite refreshing.
We'd probably echo that, wouldn't we in our?
In our experience with George, yeah, yeah, absolutely
personable, yeah. Very personable, Yeah.
Happy to be pushed. Yeah.
In fact, almost like she wanted to.
Sometimes she'd. She'd almost encourage it.
Yeah, exactly. And so full credit due, like you
say, you know, although you might not be happy with
everything that came out of it, you know, credit where it's due.
She was happy to be pushed. She's very personable.
She's I found it to be nothing like a government official, to
be honest. I found it very normal.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, she was.
Really. Down to earth with it.
Yeah, not aloof at all, which was actually really refreshing
because I've met a lot of ministers over the years and she
was probably the most interactive and yeah, night
pleasant like compared to others, certainly wasn't
patronising in any way and still isn't.
Yeah, really, really good. So one question that always came
up from the community was that this white paper was already pre
designed and everything else was just for show.
Smoke and mirrors, yeah. Or we've had consultations.
Were they receptive to views that you were putting across or
did you sometimes feel that this is just us going through the
process? I think that they were
receptive. I honestly do believe that the
outer walls were already in place because they wanted to
release it, didn't they? Last year at some point at the
beginning? And they decided to hold off
because they wanted to get more input going forward to try and
get it right. You know, So I think it is
better than what they wanted to release, which we never saw at
the beginning. I think that they did want to
listen. You know, I openly challenged
and I know that Haley did. We were always saying, you know,
we need more special schools, We need more, not just hubs.
We need smaller classroom sizes and you know, something more
neuro affirming in the classroom.
And but it's whether they want to carry on once it's come out
our mouths. Yeah, there was one thing in
particular that we even, so even right up until probably 2 weeks
ago, we were, we were still going back and forth on things
when we had a bit more of an idea.
So it gave us a chance to challenge stuff more strongly
because we got a more direct sense of, of direction.
And so one thing that did that was planned to go in that ended
up being reversed was assessments.
So they, the, they were looking at changing the appeal rights to
refusal to assess for local authorities.
That was going to change. And one of those strong
meetings, and we did follow up with a further meetings which
the minister gave us time for, was to basically say we cannot
go through and spot and support this.
Like this is not, you can't do this.
And it was hard and it was stressful because it, it felt
like there was. And as obviously everyone knows,
there's a lot there now that isn't great and actually is
detrimental in terms of overall rights to appeal.
But we just felt like, come on, this is too much.
You're taking away too much here.
And so the the rights to appeal to assess was put back back in
to where it was before. But that's just that challenge.
That's really good to know because that isn't something at
least when I look through, that's not something that was
clear to me in the white paper. So that's really good to know
because I know a lot of people were worried about that.
And I think, I mean, that's a decent chunk of what the
tribunals were all about was I was like 24 percent, 25% was
just refusal to assess in the first place, never mind whether
they got the school they wanted or the content of an already
existing EHCP. So OK, so that actually is
really good news. I thought this was all going to
be bad news so. Not all of it.
OK, but what? What?
What was their thinking to even put that on the table to refuse?
It they thought it would be, they thought the roots that they
wanted to put in would be easier for parents and less and
quicker. And what's the word they use and
not antagonistic? Is that right?
Yeah, they, they do have an I do generally feel like they don't
quite understand still just how bad it is with local authorities
And I, I don't think we've got that through.
And it was, if you ever get Georgia on here, she'll tell you
how many times I said to her, local authorities will not do
this. They will still continue to
behave in the way that they already have.
This will not change. And I felt like I was a broken
record at times because I said it so many times in the
meetings. And I don't think that still got
through completely, if I'm honest.
I still think they are naive to just how bad it is out there.
And so I think this was all part of that, this idea that
everything, once they put these new processes in place, is going
to work perfectly. But the reality is we've seen 10
years of it not. And you, the same people are
still employed, the same people are still making decisions.
So how is that going to change? So and accountability is not
enough. Yeah, and there needs to be
more. I did send a very long e-mail
with ways that would be really good for accountability for
local authorities and how it would give faith for parents to
see these being put in. So hopefully something will be
done with that. Yeah, there was no sorry.
No, go on, you're fine. No, there was one other thing we
did get put in and that was the the ability, well, not the
ability. So what is going to happen going
forward is if a local authority consistently make incorrect
decisions, which get to the tribunal and they are
consistently found is found against them, then that that
local authority will have to essentially explain themselves
to whoever that group is going to be right now to say, look,
this is how we're going to amend our processes in order to
address that failure. So we won't hopefully.
And like we said, we still time will tell and it depends how
it's all written. But the, the hope was in that,
and I'd say again, that was me and Amy and the DCP pushing
strongly for this one, was that we can't have situations anymore
where you've got local authorities that are just
rejecting 65%. So for example, when I started
campaigning, my local authority was rejecting 65% of all kids
for assessments that we we're hoping that that will mean that
will stop or certainly get nipped in the bud a lot quicker
than it ever has been before. So that was another thing that
we did actually get sort of. That is really good.
Did did you ever obviously you were just saying that about
understanding the local authority.
Do you think there was from from a government position?
Do you ever think that they've got the local authority on one
side saying we are doing a fantastic job and on the other
side they've got what they perceive to be overly emotional
parents who are trying to give advice And do do you think
they're like, well, these parents are just being a bit
overly emotional, they're exaggerating do.
You know what I mean? Yes and no.
I mean, I have definitely told them a few stories about my
local authority. So I'm hoping that they will be
one of the first local authorities to be spoken to by
the government going forward. OK, They'll get a nice little
letter on their doorstep in the coming weeks.
I think like Amy says, it's a mixture.
I think there are still some people in the DfE that believe
that it is just, it's, it's unreasonable parents who are
trying to get too much for their children.
But I think I, I felt like there was a bit of a change as time
went on with them that they certainly, Georgia definitely
was not only listening. So as part of the national
conversations, when they were going out, actually meeting
parents, I think they started to see that we're not, we're not
like that. And when I had discussions with
her, she was literally telling me back, telling stories back to
me about children that had been refused to assess that very
clearly should be assessed and get support.
So I think they did take it on board.
Whether that's that stops at the minister and there are still
people beyond her who still believe that way, I don't know.
And I yeah, but it's, it's difficult because when you see
the white paper as it is, you still feel like that that that
viewpoint is there because otherwise why change it and the
way that they have? So all right, what about this
white paper then When it, when you obviously I'm, I'm guessing
you guys that you knew what was going to be in this white paper
prior to its release. Wow, we read a prior version of
it, so we got to read it about 3 weeks before it came out and
that was traumatic in its own right.
Three hours, no toilet break. 160 pages. 3 coffees and a red
ball. 25 pages of notes. Yeah, wow.
Yeah, and how did you? Feel after that, I mean it's
better that there. It's improved from what I read
it when I read. It saw the first version, so we
that we didn't, yeah, we weren't given the last version, so we
didn't know exactly what had been changed based on our
feedback. But my, my view initially was
the tone wasn't quite right. I still felt that like you said,
that that view of parents was still there.
But I think for me it was seeing it in black and white their,
their plans for the changes to legislation because that, that
was, it was really disappointing because at the end of the day,
if everything's done correctly, you never need to go to court.
You should never have to go to court.
It should always be a last resort.
And so why take away all those, all that protection that shell
around it for the sake of what, what's your aims here when
you're doing that? And I think that was my worry
that if you, if you're so confident in the process, you
don't need to take away anything because.
You could. Never get that far.
I said this about 150 times that I slacked sentence.
I've I've messaged it in emails, I've said it verbally in every
single meeting. So is Haley.
Yeah. You know, if, if you are so sure
that those steps that they're going to put in place, which
should already be there right now, you know, if they've got a
legal backing as well, you know, you're, you're never going to
get to tribunal so they'll decrease anyway.
Yes. It makes no sense to take away
the one thing parents have you're.
Probably going. To say the same as me, I was
going to say is that is that them showing confidence in their
their white paper or is that them knowing what the local
authorities are actually like? Latter.
I'm going to go over the latter just from my personal
experience. Which ultimately that then the
the the the, the evolution of that is that it's about money
and cost. Yeah, it's going to be.
Yeah, there's partly, there's no doubt that money is involved,
right? It's got to be in.
Because you if, if, if money wasn't the issue here, kind of
I've heard, you know, Bridget Phillips and said.
Money's not the issue. Three times the other day she
said twice when she was talking to us at Peterborough and they
just said it this day after speaking to Nick Ferraro and LBC
that this wasn't about saving money.
Well, like you've just. Said that wasn't going to save
the money of. Course it is, and we understand
that that's. That's one of the reasons it
needs reform. Yeah, exactly.
That's being pragmatic and going, we understand this about
about cost cutting, which is fine.
So one, say it and two, if it isn't to your point there, leave
those unnecessary backstops there, then tribunal because
they'll never be needed I think. I think they know that if they
leave them there, they are going to be used because they are
going to be needed. Yeah, because there's not enough
accountability still that local authorities are going to keep
running and doing whatever they want.
And it's, you know, there needs to be more in place.
Yeah. And I think the bit that really
I found so disappointing was all the accountability so far seems
to be put on schools. It seems to be everything's
changed with schools and yet local authorities have got off
Scott free. And yet they're the ones that
really have let us down. Everyone's going to be
everyone's going to be butting heads even more than they do
now. Aren't.
They parents who don't need that extra pressure that is then
putting teachers and parents up against each other.
Yeah, which is going to cause more of a divide when we need to
ensure that parents and teachers are working together to make
sure that things are in place and working well.
Yeah, but this just makes neuro diverse parents look neurotic
then, doesn't it? If you're, if you're an outsider
looking in a neurotypical family and now all you hear about your
local school that your child attends is how those parents
over there keep butting heads with the school, the head,
everybody else like that. Oh, they're just troublemakers
all the time. It carries on pushing that
narrative that we've seen since last summer that we are an
awkward bunch of people. We're spending too much money.
Yeah, we're responsible for all the potholes and everything else
like that and everything else that they'd like to put in these
articles that are printed. It just it just carries on
feeding that narrative again. Yeah, yeah.
And it's so unfair because the vast majority of parents that I
speak to, they just want their kids to go to school and be
happy. It's not, it's not wanting to go
to a really expensive school somewhere that's 50 miles away
with a taxi attached. It's not like that.
And some parents, they need that.
And that's absolutely fine because their children have
those needs that can only be catered for in that way.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's hard because yes, all right, though
money isn't positively the issue.
I think when they say that it's more because they are investing
a lot of money upfront. And I think that's a really good
thing. They're actually putting the
money where their mouth is for the early level needs.
But my worry is that higher level has just had a lot
stripped away from it now. Schools are being cancelled that
were meant to be built. Yeah, yeah.
And then you've got all the rights around that being taken
away for what purpose? And I think that's that's why
that's where our concern is right now.
So obviously you guys are involved in in this this
process. Was there anyone else that was
involved as well other than you guys?
Not and in well, so certainly not in the send development
group. We we were the only impartial.
Parents, Agnes. Oh, Lata, yes, more recently,
yes, yes, you're right. Yes, she was.
But yes. And at the beginning it was us
NNPCFDCP, Disabled Children's Partnership.
Sorry, the Council for Disabled Children, the.
Difference. Yes, had teachers, various other
people. I'm trying to think who else was
there now? Oh, Nassen, so were there as
well, and then came along. Sorry, were there any private
entities involved? No.
No, OK. Only charities I think.
OK. No private equity companies or
anything like that. That's OK.
No. That's.
Interesting. Cool.
Yes. And nobody from LGA, nothing,
nobody. No representation there.
So it was very much charity kind of sector and us.
So yeah, we also, we were literally the only people in the
room that were completely neutral, OK.
Is everybody on the same page or is a difference of opinion?
Broadly, yes, I think nobody really had any.
We certainly didn't have any strong disagreements within our
group, did we? But there's obviously
disagreements online between wider groups.
Yes, but those not in the room, yeah, Yeah.
But within the in that room, no, I think everybody broadly just
wanted the best for the children, for the kids if you
want to. So that was generally the sense
in the room. And whilst we might have
different takes on things and obviously Amy and I will
probably have the strongest opinions at times because we're
parents and we're living it, it's going to be you're going to
come across and have a different way of doing things.
I think it was, it was quite refreshing because everyone was
quite solutions focused in order to to get the right legislation
at the end of it. That's good and I only swore a
couple of times in the meeting, so I thought that was the win.
Well done. Success.
So I mean, and The thing is, I suppose with everyone that's
involved, as long as the intent is what's best for the kids,
that's half the battle, isn't it?
As long as the intent is there, it's just trying to work a way
that you can all kind of come to the same kind of solution at the
end. What obviously you've you've
since this has come out, obviously you guys must have
seen so much online. I mean, even priority of it
coming out, you must have seen all of us talking about it in
the leaks. And you must have been like,
yeah, that's wrong, they've got that wrong or yeah, they're
talking absolute shit there or that bit they've got right.
And so you've obviously seen. All across the spectrum, like
everyone, everyone talking about this, is there anything that
people have got completely wrong?
Like something a positive thing where people think this is the
end of the world for our kids, but you're actually do you know
what? If this works, this part is
actually going to be quite good, quite positive.
Please say you've got one. Just one.
Just one, I think there is, I think for children with lower
level needs, I think things will get better because I think there
will be. So basically I think what's
happened is for it's going very technical sort of funding type
of stuff. But basically what's happened is
this, every school has a, a special needs grant to DSG grant
that which is allocated. But what's happened is so many
children. Yeah.
So but what happens is so many children have ended up with the
HCPS. Those children get the funding
first, which is meant that all those children coming up with
lower level needs have had nothing.
And that has just been an offshoot of the system that has
grown. And unfortunately I think it's
it's just the way things have gone because of the fact that
there's lots of children that have been left and shouldn't
have got should have got support earlier, so they need to hire
etcetera. So I think this system will put
the money back into the bottom again, which I think is a good
thing, and I think it will mean that children get speech and
language therapy, OT etcetera much quicker without having to
wait for any ACP to get it. Also, it kind of helps schools
that didn't really want send children in it.
Now they're going to they're going to have to take them
they'll because I think they're changing the way that because
obviously if you don't have GCSEs and things like that,
normally schools then take a knock of where they rank.
And so schools didn't want to take children because of that,
because you. Want to maintain their.
Their business standards, their standards.
And yeah, so now I do believe there's a shift in the change
coming with that. So it's more of an incentive for
schools and each school will be forced to take children.
Therefore, it will be an all rounder instead of having a
honeypot school, which has taken a massive financial hit like my
daughter's school because all of the SEND children in the area
literally flock into it. They've got like nearly 40% of
children would SEND, I think it's 35% with EHCPS and they've
got it now a unit on it as well. And the head teacher has made
that decision for those children in that unit not to take GCS,
ES. So she's taken a huge hit for
the school and I think she ranked like 10 in the West
performing schools for the Times.
Do you? Know what that that is positive
anyway, if even if you took send out of it like putting kids down
this narrow pathway pathway where they've got to do GCSEs
and they've got to do Sats like that needed to be got rid of
years ago. I agree years ago.
So actually that's quite, that's a positive change for, for.
I think her, my, my daughter's school, I always think it's
praises, you know, for a mainstream senior school, I
think they're incredible and inclusive and I think they've
got their values in the right way.
And, you know, the headteachers there because she wants to make
children thrive, to be able to move on to the next stage of
their life, no matter how that looks, even if it's just them
having functional skills to be able to live independently.
You know, she's quite happy to take that knock.
So I think, you know, hopefully they'll get these schools in
that trust where they'll have access to like these O TS.
So then she'll be able to help the other schools in the area
that used to be not so good. And then it widens the like,
like school pool basically of good schools for children with
SEND. So I think that's a bonus going
forward that, you know, more schools will hopefully do better
because they have to. Yeah.
So the money now going to the schools?
It's going in a trust across a board of schools, so they could
don't handle it and they cannot use it on other things.
That was going to be my question.
Is it, it's ring fence for those children?
Yeah, yeah. So it's not going into the
schools wider hot. And they have to show how it's
being spent. Yeah, OK.
They'll get audited. That's good.
Yeah. Yeah, that is, that is good.
That's good. What do you make of the four
different tiers? So I'm being we've been assured
that it's not a you've got to go one after the other after the
other after. You can slot into Level 3, shall
we say, or whatever your needs are.
The way I'm taking it is you won't know where you are.
So they'll open your individual care plan and they'll literally
just be saying, well, we've noticed they need speech
language to come in. And then all actually we think
maybe the educational psychology should to come in and just, you
know, give us some ideas. So then you're already building
it all up and you're actually moving up the targeted tiers
without even realising it's happening.
And then they're like, well, we need these interventions in
place. And if they don't work, then
more put in. And that's when you get to the
top because maybe nothing's working and they go, well, we've
got this whole evidence base of everything we've tried,
mainstream isn't working. And the, you know, we're having
to go down a what was it called again?
Specialist package. There we go for a specialist
package. And then at that's when they go,
these are the schools for you on that package and hope that you
like one of them. Yeah, yeah, OK.
Yeah. So I think the problem with that
is and the worry is, and I I say this is parent of a child in
this exact bracket. There is a lot of support that
you get right now in in your EHTP because it's listed in your
EHTP, right? It details and day-to-day level
what your child needs. If it's written well, obviously
these aren't the ones that are written badly.
The problem is by moving it to an ISP, all of a sudden you lose
that legal right because you can only, well, because it's going
into the ISP, which means you can only appeal to the school.
That school will then go to obviously that that complaints
panel will be a board with one independent person.
But if you've got a Board of Governors that's 5 or 6 and
you've got one independent person, they're going to be
drowned out very quickly. So that worries me, particularly
for the high 11 level needs kids who do need extensive
adaptations to their day. And if you're relying solely on
the school to do that, what happens when they don't?
And then so for those children that aren't quite at the
specialist package level, but are on a very highly adapted
curriculum level, how would that work?
And I think they're the ones that I, I'm worried the most
about right now. Sorry, no.
No, I was just going to go back to that there.
So obviously in the in the white Paper there is that one
independent, I don't know, send specialist whatever you want to
go call that would be on that that particular panel there.
The rest of the people on the panel would you said governors,
would they be the governors of the school?
So no. Would they be really?
Oh God, I didn't really. They could be the just the
regular governors of the school. So like I could be a governor of
my school. I'll have no send experience.
The ones from that school though, I think they have to be
from different schools. But they could.
But they could still, in essence, just be.
They can still, in essence, just be regular parents with no
experience of Sen. Yeah.
Who now will have the power over
somebody else's child? And you could also be one of
those parents that is getting extremely pissed off at how your
school's changing, how your particular child isn't getting
what they deserve anymore. Why is all this money being
spent? Done.
That's a problem. They now will make up the
majority of that panel. Complaints panel.
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think it's clear if
there is what the complaints. What do you do then if you're
not happy? Because that big selling point
from Bridget Phillipson was there's going to be an
independent send specialist on. There.
OK, that's a huge fucking problem.
But she did. She failed to mention that.
The majority after that, Haley, we need that tribunal step,
which is what we keep saying. There needs to be that legal
backstop at that level. But these are people that that
will have no understanding of this particular White paper in
the detail. Not only not only no
understanding, but potentially A bias against.
Yeah, disabled children, yeah, could.
Be. Yeah.
Yeah, potentially. Yeah.
OK. Yeah.
Wow. That's a That's a big fucking
problem. Yeah, wow, they never mentioned
that bit. Of course they didn't.
No, of course they didn't. When they said, when they said
Bridget Phillipson, are tribunals still going to be
going? Yeah, didn't say it was only for
complex. In the same capacity though.
Yeah, exactly. OK.
Yeah, yeah. So it's a real worry and it's
that's the bit that I'm really concerned about because what
happens then if you're not happy with the school package?
But and then so for example, I think the plan is that you can
still get an EHCP and then go to a mainstream school, but you
don't get the EHCP until you get your specialist provision.
So yeah, it's that's cool to write it.
Yeah. So then the school write it.
And then if you've got a, see if you want to challenge the
placement and the provision who, where are you going?
So. Going round in a circle.
Yeah. And then there's no end to it
because there's no way to stop it.
Because if you don't go to tribunal to challenge the school
they've given you, they go. We agree that is the wrong
school. Let's pop you back to the LA who
made the wrong decision, who you've got no faith in.
They don't know how to do their job.
Yeah. And then they'll give you
another school that's wrong that you're not happy with.
You have to challenge it. Oh look, another 20 months.
But separately, the actual plan itself, then you have to go back
to the school with. So you've got, whereas you just
had one appeal process, you've now got double approval
processes potentially and one will just become a loop.
Yeah. Oh.
My God. Yeah.
So you're going to get more parents pulling their children
out of education. Yeah, because there's a children
and well-being Bill that will stop that.
Oh, what's that? Have you not heard about the
Children's and well-being Bill? You might want to Google that.
They're going to make it incredibly difficult for
children with plans. EHCP send needs to be withdrawn
from school without the local authority first allowing you to
do that and doing a home meeting with you.
And then if they decide that you cannot take your disabled child
out of the school placement, you have no choice but to continue
to put them into a school placement.
That is not meeting. Their needs?
Oh yes. Take me to court.
Like, Nah, really? Yeah, and you will literally be
forced to keep your child in a school that is failing them.
It's really. Bad.
I don't want to be hyperbolic. I don't want to be hyperbolic.
But like this is going to you've said.
The 2GO hand in hand. Lives, lives are going to be
lost if parents have been forced to force their children into
these situations. And unfortunately the white
paper and the children and well-being school paper slot
together really well so that it does remove that right to taking
your child and home educating them.
So who's in charge of your child now then?
Is it the local authority? Yeah, yeah.
Wow, do. You know what that.
Wow. That's probably the, that's
probably one of the worst bits of it all, actually, the bits
that we've just talked about, the last, that's that school
governors, that's a separate. Bill and that's near the end
stages as well that is now in the House of Lords being
discussed for the final bits and they keep sliding things through
the back door of. Course they do.
They love doing that. It's getting worse, so I would
definitely have a Google of that bill and see what it entails.
Yeah, do. You think this is going to cause
more issues than we currently have with the current system?
I think the basis of the what the the bill children well-being
built or the White Paper. White Paper.
I like the basis of what they want to do with the targeted
support, the helping hands, but that should already be there.
Yeah, that's things that should already be readily available now
and schools aren't putting in place because again, there's
nothing to hold them accountable.
You know, if you've got a bad school, they don't care.
They've got a reputation for not having disabled kids.
They're fine with that. You know, you've got a bad local
authority. You know, instead of actually
putting more school placements locally, they'll happily send a
child miles away and spend, you know, 8090 thousand, which could
put, you know, 3 kids in a local placement in a specialist
provision. I mean, where we are, instead of
building a new school, they gave it to an old care home to build
there instead of a specialist school.
And I just think, you know, it's, it's not the, the best
trajectory going forward. I think there's also an issue
that we've at the moment, our children are now going to have
to fit packages rather than have a package around them.
So the way it's going to work is that you will, you will apply
for obviously the assessment to the local authority, the local
authority that will then determine whether you meet a
package. And obviously you can have
multiple packages. So I know that's the question
that came up recently, but that means then from you, if you're,
if they say, yes, you do meet the criteria for a package, you
then go to school with that package.
But that means you're fitting the package that's offered by
the school rather than the school fitting your needs.
So and I, I understand where they're to a degree where
they're coming from because they obviously are trying to make
this financially sustainable as we all know, but at what cost?
And I'm not quite sure they fully have thought about what
the cost of that actually is. So like I said, I think it's, I
think early, early level kind of special needs and identification
and things like that will get better.
But I'm I'm very concerned about the high, high level needs and
the the support that's going to be surrounded there.
Right, quick question as well. On the back of that then, can
you just explain to everyone what complex needs is?
Very easy. It's a very simple, very simple
question, surely. No one knows because we're yet
to be. Told well the the only thing the
sort of the indication we've been given is that in order to
get a package you've got to show that you need a specialist
school. So it's not so does your needs
require more than a mainstream school.
So then it will be determined as a complex needs which are met,
which are then determined, obviously it's catered for,
sorry, by a package section F now, yes, which is again, you're
very much having to show a child is got to fit a certain.
Box. Yeah.
OK. So it's not, it's not you're in
the specialist complex needs. So you go to a specialist
school. It's do you need a specialist
school? In that case, you're OK.
So they're just kind of reverse engineered it.
All right. Yeah.
All right. That actually makes more sense.
Yeah, then. In some ways.
Yeah, yeah, OK. And we have been told there will
be packages within mainstream schools as well for certain
needs, but we're not clear on what those needs will be.
So whether that is just more medical, I don't know.
But well, I'm I'm guessing but I don't know.
Obviously this, this money that's that's going in, you
know, 4 billion, obviously that looks great, but.
When you divide it. On the three years, yeah, on the
surface, 4 billion seems great, but 2000 lbs, it's not.
And again, the whole the whole point of this, it's an
investment. They're investing this money for
a return at the other end, the return being less money being
spent, which is going to be the end goal of this.
And again, that's, that's fine. Obviously all of this, this
whole plan stands on there being enough people, staff,
specialists to support it. Where the fuck are they coming
from? Apparently they're going to try
and get ones that have left the industry to come back.
Great, but they've probably left the industry for a reason.
Yeah, shit. You know the job, you left
because you hated it. Do you want to come back?
Because you were stressed and overworked.
Do you want to come back to it? I'm probably underpaid.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
See, that's like, that's a huge, I mean, it's a big gamble, isn't
it? It's a big assumption they're
making is we've got this wonderful plan, yeah, but it's
based on a lot of people that currently don't exist.
I know that they have said like the 2030 trajectory could be
changed if they don't have the hubs and the staff and
everything in place by then, that timeline can be shifted.
OK. Can I ask you a question about
the hubs? So we go into a senior school,
comprehensive school and they talk about a specialist hub.
Obviously for me, looking from the outside in is I just imagine
one room which then accommodates kids from the age of 11 to 16.
How does it work when they say we're bringing a hub to a school
that's going to meet these kids needs?
Yeah, like do you imagine like a Porter cabin?
Yeah, I just imagine that we'd just attach a Porter cabin to
the school. Because.
I think. They wanted to do new
infrastructure in schools, didn't they?
They were looking at. It's going to vary.
Yeah, depending on how much the space the school has got itself.
Yeah. And for sometimes, so I should
say my son, my eldest son, he goes to a base attached to a
mainstream school. So but it is a specialist school
attached. It's very much like of that ten
children in the classroom, 2 Tas, high level of support
needs. I think if, and again we don't
really know, we haven't been given the set detail of how they
envisage these bases. Is it that highly specialist
attachment to a school which benefits from the sort of the
finances of the bigger school, but equally can still run as a
specialist? Or is it another drop in room
for people to pop into if they're not feeling particularly
comfortable in class? That's a very different,
different prospects. So yeah, again, we need a lot
more detail. I feel like they want to leave
it down to the local. I'm sure I read it somewhere.
It's down to the local authority to do this plan.
That's great because they've they've been really good so far.
So that's really. Positive, yeah.
And what standards will be there?
Will there be enough Ttas? Will the teachers be trained?
Will they be specialist teachers?
Like there's so many unknowns so.
This is going to be a bit of a post code lottery for for
schools then isn't it really? Yeah, I feel like they've not
really thought it out properly and it needs to be like a
national guidance and this is how it's going to be across the
whole of England rather than here.
Go local authorities, do what you want.
Yeah, we've had it needs to be mandatory.
Yeah, we, we, we've had people message us like they're moving
back to the UK from abroad and they're asking a question they
shouldn't have to ask. And that's where do we move to?
Because my child's got special educational needs and where's
the best place to go? It just, it shouldn't be like
that. Should it?
Yeah, don't go to Hampshire. Yeah.
Like that isn't something people should have to think about, you
know, where's, where's the best place to move to for my for my
child? It's great that they are asking
that question, but they shouldn't need to.
But. It just looks like all right,
The local authority are fucked up all over the country.
Let's just give. But they're not getting their
asses spanked about it. They're just no.
We're going to get them more. Yeah, well, you told Mr Starmer.
I did. You did.
At the round table you were like, firstly, you, even though
this wasn't down to you because you weren't in power, you need
to say you were sorry for the trauma that you have called
parents. That was her exact sentence to
Keir Starmer. Did you?
She. Did that parents feel that
they've been played? So we need acknowledgement from
you that we've been subject to a system where it's not our fault.
We've played the roles and yeah, we're the ones that take the
brunt of it and we need acknowledgement from them.
And to be fair to him, he took that.
Yeah, nice. Well, you need an
acknowledgement for saying it, mate.
That's good. Fair play to you.
That's good. Larry Well, I think sometimes
that it's, it's very easy to be yes, people and in order to get
things done properly, we have to tell the truth.
And somebody had to say to him, but like, there's a lot of upset
right now and there's a lot of trauma that's been caused.
And until you can acknowledge that, then we can't move
forward. No, no, no.
I mean, there's there's no good people being an echo chamber and
just hearing everything that they want to hear.
There's no point. They'll never learn anything,
never move forward. And actually, you can't be a
good anything if you don't actually listen.
There's no point being in the room if we're literally just
agreeing with them. The whole point of us is to be
the voice of parents. We may as well not be in the
room if we aren't going to stand up and say actually this isn't
OK, which is what we've done every single week. 100%.
Yeah, we're the people from the Department for Education that I
will see you guys got in there as as parents, but were the
people employed by the DfE that are send parents or send
families or they're just outsiders looking and thinking
they understand it? I know I I without naming names,
there is a few people that I have spoken to that do have send
children, you know majority. Don't know.
No, majority don't, but there are a couple that do have them
but they're kind of just in the DfE rather than being a voice.
Within part of the policy, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's always, it's always eye opening when that's the
case. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. I mean, we know some people in
kind of prominent positions that, you know, suddenly hit
them, their lives and you. And the same for us, you know,
until, you know, you don't know. And.
That's to affect you fast
changing. And then you get it.
So it's some people are kind of being.
Then again, I say we'll, we'll, we'll fully ignorant you.
You don't even have to be ignorant.
If you don't, if you're not in it, you cannot get it.
You just have to trust the parents.
It doesn't, Yeah. It doesn't matter how how you
how many times you're explained what it's like living this
reality. Yeah.
But then you, you always risk
having those people then that aren't directly affected by it
going to these kind of policies. Or, you know, you've seen it
many times over in, in all walks of life.
They go in there to make a name for themselves that I've managed
to change this. So I was a key instrument in
saving XY and Z to progress their careers.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
If it makes you feel better, we didn't get paid a single penny
together, no. We didn't.
It cost us money. Yeah, if you train at all.
Not mine, they did. I'm fine.
I'm finally getting my nearly 6 to £700 worth of travel back.
Yeah, that's good. Well, you could just use the DLA
money. You're swimming in it anyway.
DLA. No honestly made of money cash
name. Make it rain, geez.
I think that's what that's the bit we found hardest because
when we were getting the backlash that we got, so when
people were saying that we'd been bought and all this sort of
these sorts of comments were flying, to be honest, it was so
far from the truth because it was actually like we were giving
everything to it. That would, that would seriously
piss me off because you're obviously directly affected by
it. We would, yeah, as a community,
we would fucking moan if there was nobody from our community on
the inside fighting our cause. But then when you put yourself
forward to fight the cause, everyone then raises a voice and
goes, oh, you're just one of them.
You could have. You could have mentioned this or
you could have. You've done this or you've been
bought. Now you're part of the
establishment. That's one thing about like
this, this community generally, we're all going in the right
direction. We're all going in the same
direction, generally speaking. But every now and then,
Facebook's a fucker for it. I have Facebook, it's worse.
Yeah, it's it's like it's all the people that aren't in the
community who just throw in it. And you know what?
When they say it, I'm kind of like, fuck, I don't really care
because you don't know. But it's when people within the
community start fighting each other, and it's like, why?
I'm really personal. That was the thing.
Oh. Yeah.
Really. Personal.
Yeah. How's it impacted you guys then
obviously put yourselves? On the line like.
This it was, yeah. It was really hard at the time.
I think you just wondered like what you, what would, why carry
on because you just think, well, if nobody's going to support you
and you're giving everything, your family is sacrificing.
Like both of our families had to sacrifice stuff because we
weren't there week on week for the past three, 2-3 months.
Yeah, well, you've got kids with additional needs, Yeah.
I've got 3, so yeah. Exactly.
So like everybody's in it. And so the last thing you need
is people to attack you just because you don't think exactly
the way that they think. And I think we've just got to
get to a point where we just understand that we're going to
have different views. That's fine.
That's how we make progress. But that doesn't make one of us
wrong and somebody else right. It's just different, yeah.
You know, and being told that we don't have children who are
varying enough needs when I've got very varied.
I've got 2 but quite high care needs 1 not so high care needs,
you know, also being autistic with ADHD myself.
And we've got then you reply with well, you know, I'm not
being paid. I haven't been bought and they
go well more for you, you, you know, at least.
You should have been stupid. You're stupid because you're not
getting paid. And I'm like, how can I win?
Yeah, I've got like on publicly, I've been, they've said that
nobody in the group knew anything about the law and yet
I'm a solicitor. So they do things like they they
direct comments to that degree and you just feel like, come on
guys, like let's respect each other for the contribution we're
giving. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
These are sometimes the people that won't go out of their way
though to actually make a positive impact in the
community. They'll just sit there and Chuck
shit from the sidelines. Which is easier, right?
Yeah. You know, if I wasn't in the
room and for instance, say you guys were, I would just be happy
there was a parent in the room. Yeah.
That I knew would be voicing. Yeah.
What? At least 95% of parents would be
saying. You're not.
You're never gonna please everyone.
You're not gonna have everyone's views.
It's just not possible. And like the argument that you
that like your kids needs aren't enough for you to be speaking.
I don't and I don't have fairing enough ages.
I've got a 13 year old, A7 year old, and a four year old.
What the What do they want? I'm missing.
It's like a 20 year old son. Like, yeah, it's just
ridiculous. I mean, like that we've talked
about it a lot. Like you, you're in a situation,
I know Andy and myself are, where our kids do fall into that
complex bracket. But actually that that makes us
better off as far as our kids are concerned, because there's
yes, our lives are going to be harder, but but our kids get the
support. But then.
This this was a guy basically we we there was a reel that we did
a little while ago. Just saying when Lydia got her
placement at the specialist school she attends, similar sort
of thing for every for everyone placement, say there was 20
parents that missed out. And my clip was, I was
absolutely delighted my child, I've got the placement that she
deserved and required. And then I said afterwards I
thought about it and I realised that there would be 19 other
families who would be suffering. And somebody put in the
comments, what did he say? Well, he said something like,
well, it wasn't that much of A dilemma for you, was it?
Essentially like. Like.
Crying hard enough. And so.
Like. Yeah, so me, me and Gaz.
I said to Gaz like well what the fuck are we doing then?
Spending our money trying to go down to London to help send
betweeners because the speak for the community because we could
have just gone fuck it. OK, just so it's.
Yeah, exactly. We're absolutely fine.
But then. That's it.
That's kind of where we are. We're in a situation where our
kids are probably going to get the support they need because of
the complexity. We're not just doing this for
our kids. Yeah, we're trying to do it.
And that's what that's what you guys have done.
Yeah, that's where I was at. For where we were both at.
We were sorted up until about 3 weeks ago.
Yeah. And now we're both down, down
the tribunal path again. We can't fucking wait.
Yeah, it's not. Another thing is you can't, you
can't keep everybody happy. And it doesn't even matter what
the issue is, especially Facebook.
Like direct to the camera. If you are any of those people
that sit on fucking Facebook just looking for shit to say to
people, just fuck off. Don't get someone to give you a
hug. Like just Speaking of hug hug.
Speaking of Facebook, I was just saying off camera to you, Amy,
that literally last week a certain newspaper put an article
out and it was just slamming send children after the white
paper came out and the families and everything else like that,
and we talk about teachers being trained.
There were comments in there from current teachers who were
agreeing with the article, saying it's a lot of neurotic
parents, it's bad parenting, which has led to their children
being like this. You didn't get it in my day.
And these are still active teachers.
So how do you train these individuals?
Yeah. You don't.
You show them the door. The thing is, The thing is
neurotic parents do exist across the board where you've got send
kids or typical kids, there are people that are going to be
trying to scrange money for DLA and welfare and and they're
being dishonest about it. Yes, they exist, but they're not
worth talking about. They are such a small
percentage. You can't throw the baby out
with the bathwater. Yes, they exist.
We accept they exist. Fine, move on.
It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change anything.
The vast majority of people that are going through this don't
want to have to go through it because it.
Absolutely give up my DLA and anything that any other bonus
that comes with this life just to go so my kids can literally
just glide through school and have their needs met at a base
level without any worry. I don't even imagine the trauma
and the sleepless nights. There is one thing on that, that
I think that unfortunately the teaching profession does need to
catch up. At the end of the day, we've now
established through I think quite set like reliable data.
About 5 or 6 kids in every classroom now have to send of
some form when you've got 20% of your class that has Sen.
This isn't special needs teaching anymore.
This is just teaching teaching. And I think we need to get past
this idea that somehow what they're doing is something extra
because it's now just part of their job.
So yeah, we want to get the right support for certain
children. We want to get the right
methodology and the right provision and the right
equipment. But I do think there comes a
point where everyone has to accept that this is progression.
And that is a you know what? That's a really good point
because I was guilty of that. I was definitely, I've said it
on the podcast, I was definitely guilty of being like, fucking
all these parents are now going to have to do this.
But yeah, no, do you know what? That's just changed my mind.
That's a really good point. But it's always been there,
isn't it? When like we were at school, you
say 20% of your year group was probably affected in some way or
you know, would have been sent or new or diverse.
They were just put in the naughty set and I can look back
at my. If I look back 30 years, you can
very quickly go. I can look at them now and go,
yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I have emotional base
school avoidance. I I didn't go to school for
almost 3 1/2 years of my senior school.
Yeah. Yeah, so it was there.
It just. Wasn't turned out right, didn't
you? Twitching and catching flies out
there. Yeah, 7 GS CS I've got.
What did I get? I've got three CS7DS and 2ES.
That's not as far as what I got. I need, I need like a I'm not
saying I'm autistic or anything, but I need if I'm not interested
in it, if it's not a hyper focus, for lack of a better
word, it, I will not retain it. I mean, even if I do like it, I
don't think I'll retain it. That's what you're just saying.
You're a dumb ass like nothing to live in your job.
I'm. Just earlier when you asked me a
question and I was answering it, I forgot what the question was
halfway through what I was talking about.
Mate, you did well. Because they no one noticed.
Mate, you cruised through that. I didn't have a clue.
Whatever bullshit you were coming out, we were listening.
Have you thought about becoming a politician?
Yeah, I don't. I don't think that would work.
Bullshit baffles brains and all that.
Yeah, so. The white papers out now.
What happens in the life cycle of this white paper next?
We've got three months consultation, so that is where
we need to really get our voices heard with.
There's an online form you can do on the government website.
There are some consultations. I saw Hampshire Cindy as I think
it is. Is it a Cindy as Yeah, might be
that they're doing consultations with the disabled children's
something rather that was in the room with us.
Sorry, definitely forgot their name for their children.
That's one. So they're going to be doing in
person consultations as well. I know that in Hampshire I'm
actually going to be doing like a parents voice as well.
So I, you know, everyone just needs to get all their thoughts
and feelings down and you need to learn, but you need to be
loud and you need to make sure that you put your two cents in
because now is really crucial. Because once the 12 weeks is up,
although we still have time, that's when it goes into writing
policies and laws. And although things can be
changed in these steps, like in the House of Lords and
everything, once it's going through Parliament and the House
of Lords and then it goes into writing actual policies and
legalities, it gets more and more difficult to change.
It is possible it happened in 2014, I think it was with, I
can't remember which act it was now, but it did happen.
But now is the most crucial time.
It's when we really need to really push to get everything
changed. So we need to get our voices in
now, right? There's a link for that.
Yeah, yeah, there is a link. There's a link, right?
So we need to get out of that time.
We need to, we need to stick that out.
OK, so act now rather than try and amend it, yeah?
Oh please. Yeah, yeah.
Well, and we are continuing to have meetings with in the
sender. Improvement group.
We're waiting for new dates to come in.
Yeah. But we will be doing that.
Voices in with us. Yeah, but we do need parents to
be backing us up along constantly along the way as loud
as possible, because we can't do it on our own.
We need that backing. Yeah.
Have you, have you seen this, this form online?
Have you seen what it's like having?
Structured Wow, I've I've seen the web page for it.
I I didn't have the mental capacity after the white paper
dropping to actually drink on that link.
I was I was having a bit of a twitch by that point.
I was like, not today, Satan. No, I don't blame you mate.
Yeah, no, I just think, I, I think what I was going to say is
I'll have to go and have a look and see what the layer.
Just how easy it is, because obviously another thing is a lot
of parents, people might have learning disabilities and send
themselves. So it's not going to be easy.
So I will say if you do try and find someone who can help you go
through it and voice your feelings as well and.
That's what I was going to say. People need to try and be
succinct, I suppose, quite concise with any points they
want to raise because it's very easy to go into a tangent for
lack of a better wall, a waffle going into because then it's
going to be very difficult for these points to get raised in
time for you guys to keep. The emotions out of it, I know
hard because you know, we're we're angry.
We've been failed. You know, it's been shit like no
one wants to keep going to tribunal.
No one wants to argue with the local authority.
And I know we're all angry and frustrated and honestly, the
white paper was like, you know, the cherry on top.
And but if you are going to be putting your points, make sure
that they are really logical. They are bullet pointed.
You keep the emotion out of it because that's what's going to
be seen. As soon as you start putting all
the emotional or any swearing or anything else, yeah, it's not
going to be seen. 100% that's like the best advice for this
stuff. It's the same.
As fall after. Is isn't it?
Fill in any DLA form. Don't be emotional.
Just say. Say what you need to say.
Yeah, that's such good advice. But we've all got to do this.
Every family factor has to do this otherwise.
Then you have to take part to change it.
You can't not be happy and not do anything.
Yeah. Otherwise there's a little point
moaning. Yeah, to a certain degree.
Afterwards, if you haven't had your two pens worth thrown in,
yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. I get the feeling we're still in
for a few more twists and turns. I think so mate, but good
opening. I am going to keep trying
something. Shit that we're not happy with,
I think we'll. Still get things changed, I
think we're. 100%, yeah. Good, especially if people chip
in and. And.
And online, yeah, yeah, yeah. And not be Dicks to each other.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything we haven't
talked about that you think would be really useful I.
Think so? Anything only no.
Haley's just like, I don't really want to talk about this
anymore. It's just we've done everything
we. Just like, you know, there's
been some meetings. I've walked out of that meeting
and I've just gone. What the fuck has just happened?
Yeah. I remember texting you on the
train going wow, in the last 10 minutes of that meeting.
What? What on earth?
Yeah. I remember that one, yeah.
Wow. Wow.
Cool. OK.
Well, I mean, so I just really enjoyed that.
That's exactly what I thought it was going to be.
Yeah. Because when you all you get is
leaks. And then those were frustrating.
And then even even did not keep me in Kansai obviously like
Georgia was like. Doing the range strict with us
like they've given us. Are we still recording by the
way? Yeah, still.
Recording, yeah. OK, Yeah.
You can tell us off camera. Yeah.
But yeah, we're, we're, they were very strict with us about
what we could and can say. So but.
Kiss me. Don't don't cut this one out.
They used to give us like the paper for us to read and be like
the first time they gave it to us, we were like, oh, cool, put
our notes on it and they're like, oh, we need those back
afterwards. Like could you not told us at
the beginning? You can't be trusted.
So you've got a fucking note on it.
Goodness me. Yeah, yeah.
Nothing was allowed out the room.
OK, well, that's yeah, we had, we had a couple of embargoed
emails, just the date the day before and the morning off.
We thought we were special for getting that.
But you guys, you guys were really special.
You were like, well, in which actually was more painful than.
It was and it was. Always really short notice as
well. It'd be like, and tomorrow I'm
like, cool, I'll just try and get my husband to get another
two hours off work for free. Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah, we get a bit of that sometimes if we have jobs like
we've got 9 to fives, we can't actually just drop everything
and. Luckily I am self-employed but
still I'm like trying to sort childcare 3 kids.
It still hits you in the pocket though, doesn't it?
Yeah. It does.
I've been paid off a massive loss.
Like probably about 4000 lbs since November.
Like financially, that's how much I've lost.
But I never went into this to gain anything other than to make
sure, you know, children are going to get the education so
that they're going to thrive. No one wants their kids to go to
school and be traumatised. Like, how is that going to make
them upstanding them society? They're actually going to then
be a tax burden, which is an economic problem.
I don't know how they can't get their head around.
That's my goal at the end of the day with parents, and the whole
point of parenting is to make your children the best they can
be, be upstanding. But the ability that they, yeah.
And be liked by people, Like just just be good people, not
necessarily pay taxes. Who said that?
A Farage A. Farage one, but you know.
Just be the best they could be. That's literally all our jobs
are really. As parents, that's literally all
we're supposed to do. Just.
Fulfil their potential. Exactly.
So is that it?
I think that's it. I think that's it.
Guys, thank you very much and thank you for for.
Yeah, emotionally you've obviously put yourselves in
there, but but financially you've.
You've I became a Raven alcoholic Exactly that was
probably that was where extra money going.
It was probably about 4500 LB actually with the amount of
alcohol I brought. Well, I don't think you know the
amount you spent on booze. You can't really complain about
that. Mine would have been double,
Yeah, we've been double that. No, thank you very much.
And thank you. Thank you guys for actually
going out there and standing up for all of us as well.
It is absolutely appreciative. Fair.
You guys were pretty quiet about it.
You weren't moaning about it, you were just getting on with
it. I think most, almost all of the
community had no idea how involved you really were.
I think I was too scared to put anything online because of the
hate that we, whenever we did pay, stuff got quite bad.
So I was too even putting out a post of my daughter coming with
me to #10 and around the Houses of Parliament and, you know,
meeting Mr Starmer, you know, even then there was comments
going, you know, I'm really angry that you did this.
And I'm like, they were like, what's the point?
I'm like because I'm in the room and my daughter got to ask a
question. These are the same people that
say, yeah, the same people that would say, like you said there,
why are you doing that? You're a sellout, blah, blah,
blah. And then the next day they'll be
like, why? Why haven't got anybody there
representing us? Yeah.
Well, and also if they were invited that you can, you can
guarantee they'd be there and. Gosh, a cup of tea and that's
fine. Yeah, but we I quite like not
being everyone's cup of tea. No, yeah, I'm a bit like
Marmite. Yeah, no skin off our nose.
No, no, it's fun guys. Really appreciate everything
you've done, the money you've spent, the emotions, everything.
Really appreciate it. I know the community does.
Most of the community and the ones that don't can get fucked.
Facebook, we see you. So yeah, just thank you guys
because it is appreciated. I know sometimes it might not
feel like it is, but it is. Thank you very much.
Thanks for having us. Cheers guys.
Take care. Bye bye, bye, bye, bye.