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Hello mate. 
Hello again. 

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How are you not too bad 
different setting? 

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Different setting today. 
Different setting. 

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Little bit nicer than ours. 
I'll be honest. 

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Tad. 
Little tad nicer. 

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Another special episode today 
mate. 

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It is indeed, Yes. 
We've been invited to the 

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Department for Education by the 
Minister for Schools, George 

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Gould. 
How are you doing? 

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I'm good, I'm good. 
Delighted to have you here 

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again. 
Thank. 

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You very much again, Yeah. 
Always here now. 

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Yeah, we. 
Were here is it just before 

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Christmas, wasn't it? 
Yeah, so. 

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But it's nice to actually come 
down in the day because 

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obviously the office was empty, 
wasn't it? 

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Yeah, of course. 
Yeah, Somebody working and it's 

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sunny today, so yeah. 
Absolutely, And it's World Book 

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Day. 
World Book Day, so. 

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We'll. 
Tell us about World Book Day, 

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because it's not just World Book
Day to you, is it? 

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Yeah, we were just talking about
this. 

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So my mum is was a publisher and
many years ago in like 1998 I 

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think she with a group of other 
publishers actually founded, 

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well Book Day. 
It was all about opening up 

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access to reading and getting 
publishers to provide these 1 LB

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books. 
So it's actually been so nice 

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today because my little one is 
2. 

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It was his first World Book Day 
at nursery. 

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He was dressed up as a little 
tiger and I got my mum to come 

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and read to him in nursery and 
it was like a proper full circle

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moment. 
Like really, really special to 

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see, you know, what it's become,
which has just been absolutely 

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amazing. 
It was just so. 

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Cool, he thought you were 
dressed up for World Book Day. 

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As well. 
Yeah. 

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So I was trying to explain to 
him about dressing up You're a 

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tiger like the book. 
And he looked at me and was 

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like, oh mummy, you're dressed 
up as a flower. 

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So it was quite smart actually. 
Because yeah, so thank you for 

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inviting us, Dania, first and 
foremost. 

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You didn't have to. 
You actually wanted to come on. 

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Yeah, I really did. 
It wasn't I was pestering you. 

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It was you kind. 
Of saying I was pestering you, 

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I'd. 
Like to come on. 

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So thank you for. 
That I know you have a big 

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audience. 
Yeah, I know that this is, you 

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know, there's a lot of 
information out there. 

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And I just, you know, I'm really
keen firstly that everyone joins

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the consultation, but also that,
you know, get a sense of what, 

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where we're coming from, you 
know, the the plans in detail. 

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And, you know, it's part of that
dialogue. 

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So I'm very grateful for the 
opportunity. 

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Cool. 
Are you ready? 

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I'm ready. 
You're ready. 

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I hope so. 
I don't know. 

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You're scaring me. 
Now let's dive in. 

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Let's dive in. 
Let's start with a nice easy 1, 

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the tribunal gap. 
So we'll go straight in there. 

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So the white paper says parents 
can Appeal Tribunal decisions 

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about specialist provision 
packages, but the day-to-day 

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support sits inside individual 
support plans. 

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If a school writes a poor ISP 
and refuses to improve it, what 

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legal route does a parent have 
to challenge that? 

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Yes. 
So I think within the new system

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that we we're keeping the 
tribunal as a really important 

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backstop to the needs assessment
to the specialist provision 

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package. 
And in terms of the the 

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individual support and 
education. 

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When we're saying in the new 
system that that will be written

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at the setting level, but that 
the specialist provision package

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will set out like the broad 
entitlement that a child, you 

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know, should have access to you.
So you know, it could be access 

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to physiotherapy or certain kind
of curriculum or you know, that 

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kind of wider entitlement. 
The reason we're setting that 

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out just just to start there is 
because at the moment I hear a 

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lot from families that actually 
a caseworker is writing their 

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child's education plan. 
There's actually never met the 

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child. 
It's often not updated. 

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I was actually just talking to 
someone this morning who was 

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saying that that their EHCP had 
outcomes from Year 5 and their 

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child was 17. 
You know, that is, you know, 

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it's not a live document that's 
helpful for schools. 

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We want the individual support 
plan to be a document that is 

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developed and collaborated at a 
school based level. 

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So if, if a parent is unhappy 
with a specialist provision 

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package, that broad entitlement,
they can still go to the 

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tribunal on the individual 
support plan. 

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We're saying that that, you 
know, that will go through the 

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school complaints process if 
you're unhappy with some of that

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day-to-day provision. 
So just to clarify, parents 

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again cannot challenge the 
adequacy of ISAP at tribunal. 

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Not the ISP. 
They can. 

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It's the the the the kind of the
the provision. 

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OK. 
OK. 

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That leads quite well to the 
next one then. 

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OK. 
Which is the complaints panel? 

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Yeah. 
OK. 

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So the complaints panel will 
have one independent send 

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expert. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And everyone else is made-up of 
school governors I'm assuming? 

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Yeah. 
OK. 

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OK. 
So if that expert is out voted 

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by everyone else on the by the 
governors essentially, what's 

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the outcome then Essentially 
that is a possibility, isn't it,

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that that. 
I think that, you know, the, the

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reason we're putting that 
independent person onto the 

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complaints panel is we are 
really aware and we've heard 

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from a lot of families that 
there is a real concern that 

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there is that not that knowledge
about special educational needs 

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and disabilities within some of 
those complaint processes and 

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that, you know, their voices 
aren't heard. 

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And so it's it's to bring that 
expertise. 

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So we expect them to have real 
and as part of that decision 

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making at the complaints level. 
And then and so it is, but that 

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kind of sits alongside the wider
accountability that will sit on 

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schools in the new system. 
So schools will have a legal 

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duty to develop individual 
support plans to develop 

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inclusion plans that meet these 
new national standards. 

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So, you know, the minimum 
expected ordinarily available 

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provision that will be set out 
nationally at the the duty to 

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develop targeted and targeted 
plus layers of support to 

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collaborate with families on 
individual support plans. 

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All of that will will be a legal
duty. 

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So that there will be an Ofsted,
you know, as as an inspection 

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regime, we'll be looking at that
in terms of what they look at at

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schools. 
So the but we, but we really 

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aware and have heard very 
clearly that, you know, there 

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needs to be a way that parents 
can raise that individual 

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concern and that is why we're 
changing that school's 

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complaints process to bring that
independence send role into it. 

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OK. 
It's great. 

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It's great that there is going 
to be an independent summit roll

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on there. 
What if they did get voted out, 

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for example, they were voted out
and the parent then still wants 

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to challenge it. 
She can't go to tribunal at this

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point, can she? 
Because the last point is. 

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So you couldn't go on you, you 
know, there's a, so if you want 

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to challenge a complaint that's 
made in that circumstances, the 

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next route would be go to go to 
the DfE. 

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But then if you, you are unhappy
with the broader education your 

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child was getting, so you were 
in the targeted plus group and 

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you are unhappy with the 
individual support plan and 

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you've gone through that whole 
process, you could, you know, 

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that's always available to you 
to ask for a needs assessment to

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get that specialist support. 
So, so you know, that is another

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route into, into support as an 
individual family. 

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If you had felt that actually it
just wasn't working, you tried 

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everything within that school 
and you just thought that your 

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child was not getting the kind 
of support they needed, you 

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could then go forward and ask 
for a needs assessment. 

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And if you are unhappy with a 
local authority judgement about 

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that needs assessment, you could
go to tribunal. 

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OK, so I was going to say, 
because the biggest issue 

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parents going to have is they'll
be relying on the local 

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authority, which obviously as 
you know, I know you've heard it

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a million times before, the 
local authority is what a lot of

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people got an issue with. 
So this 100% so that and 

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actually that was something that
changed as part of the 

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engagement. 
So we, one of the things we 

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were, were looking at is that 
decision about a needs 

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assessment potentially going to 
the Local Government Ombudsman 

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that was to, to make it kind of 
faster and hope and, and cheaper

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to get that redress. 
But you know, the families, the 

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disabled children's 
organisations we were working 

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with were really clear that they
felt that needs assessment 

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needed a legal backstop. 
And so we changed that. 

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And then in the, in the 
proposals, the tribunal backs up

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that needs assessment. 
But I think the thing I really 

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want to say to families is we 
will have failed if we're in a 

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system where families are having
to, if that is the way they're 

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getting support, if families, 
the only way they can get 

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support is going through all 
these different processes, going

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to the tribunal around the needs
assessment and, and, and so on. 

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It has to be a system that is 
much more collaborative. 

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And within the the document, 
there's a commitment to Co 

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design the assessment process 
because something I've heard 

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time and time again is that can 
be a really, really difficult 

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process where there's not a lot 
of transparency. 

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Everyone disappears for a long 
time and then you get a 

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judgement and your parents and 
sometimes even Senkos and 

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support staff don't feel that 
they are heard as part of that 

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process. 
So that is something we want to 

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do throughout the consultation 
is to improve that and make that

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better. 
But we also want to hold local 

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authorities to account on that 
performance. 

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And you know, that if there's 
been one message I've heard so 

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strongly from from families is 
just the powerlessness they feel

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of watching things get worse and
worse for their children. 

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And they just, nobody is 
listening to them And, and they 

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can't and they can't challenge 
that. 

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And that, you know, and unless 
they're going through the 

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tribunal process and all the 
expense and stress that that 

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entails. 
So we want it to be a backstop, 

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but you know it, it would not be
success for us if that was the 

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the main way to get support. 
So in terms of that local 

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authority accountability and 
support. 

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So we're putting more funding 
into local authorities. 

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Your listeners will know that 
many local authorities have 

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developed large deficit, so 
we're going to be supporting 90%

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of those deficits around the 
country. 

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But that money is conditional on
every council developing a send 

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improvement plan that we are, 
you know, shortly going to be 

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writing to councils about. 
And that you know, that will be 

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based on their performance on a 
whole range of metrics that 

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we're going to be monitoring 
very closely. 

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And we're going to be really 
clear that if there is failure, 

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you know, we will intervene. 
And we've said in, in the 

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document, if there is 
sustainable in multiple failure,

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then, you know, we, we have the 
right to take, send off a 

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council and move into a trust as
we have in children's social 

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care. 
So we, we, we are really, you 

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know, we and this is something I
really feel deeply because I've 

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heard how hard it is for 
families. 

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We as the DfE have to be really 
holding systems to account for 

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that performance for families. 
It should not be on the burdens 

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of, you know, individual 
families to have this fight time

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and time again. 
We have to be doing this at a, 

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at a national level and that 
does mean putting in the right 

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support and funding, but it also
means stronger accountability. 

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And we're really committed to 
that. 

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But, but you know, I know it 
will hopefully offer reassurance

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that, you know, given 
everything, you know, every, 

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every family, if they are 
concerned that their child needs

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specialist support and it's not 
and it's not being offered and 

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they're not happy with the, the 
kind of system we're building at

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00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,320
the, I move my hands too much 
when I talk. 

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But if they're not happy with a 
system and that sorry, they're 

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not happy with the support their
child has and they think they 

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need something more, they can 
ask for a needs assessment and 

231
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,480
that will be backed by the 
tribunal. 

232
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:01,880
OK. 
I've just got a quick one. 

233
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,040
Yeah, of course, the obviously 
the 90% debt that is going to 

234
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:07,560
get written off, you said it's 
conditional. 

235
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,800
Do we know what those conditions
are? 

236
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:12,800
So we're working through them at
the moment. 

237
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,120
So yeah, that they will. 
And we'll be making that, you 

238
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,880
know, setting, setting that out.
There's a concern that the. 

239
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,520
Performance metrics that we will
be holding councils to account 

240
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,360
and people, I bet you're going 
to say people are concerned it's

241
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,520
only about the money and not 
about the and not about 

242
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,280
outcomes. 
And I just want to really assure

243
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,000
you this is about outcomes for 
children. 

244
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,280
Yes, I think yeah, the the the 
worry would be that these that 

245
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,080
some of the conditions might be 
make sure you don't issue X 

246
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:37,440
amount of no. 
It's the opposite. 

247
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,880
Great. 
Is this is about, you know, this

248
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,560
is about like, you know, we need
to obviously Betty, better 

249
00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:46,720
timeliness of decision making. 
You know, we do want to see more

250
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,880
support earlier. 
There are some children and 

251
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,480
families who are having to go 
for a statutory process when 

252
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,760
they could have been well 
supported if a support was 

253
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,040
available earlier. 
We want that. 

254
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,080
We don't want to force people 
into that statute process. 

255
00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,320
But this is not about, you know,
taking that route away from 

256
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,000
families that need it. 
So the kind of things we'll be 

257
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,320
looking at are, you know, the 
number of children who are out 

258
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,760
of education in a place, the 
number of inclusion bases that 

259
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,880
are attached to mainstream 
schools. 

260
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,600
The, the kind of the range of 
the, the, the specialist support

261
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,720
available, the, the kind of 
journeys that children are 

262
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,000
making. 
You know, there's a whole range 

263
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,760
of different metrics that we'll 
be looking at and timeliness of 

264
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,480
decision making around EHD, PS 
and tribunal judgments. 

265
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,240
And another really important 
area of accountability that also

266
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,280
came from the national 
conversation actually was a 

267
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,040
Disabled Children's Partnership 
idea from their Fight for 

268
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,440
Ordinary report is to bring more
transparency to the tribunal 

269
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,000
process. 
So at the moment it can be a bit

270
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,040
of a black box. 
You know, we don't know, you 

271
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,080
know, we know on a national 
level, but we don't really know 

272
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,080
locally about the tribunal 
judgments. 

273
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,600
How, you know how many families 
have gone to the tribunal 

274
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,280
multiple times and how local 
authorities are responding to 

275
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,280
that. 
So within the consultation, we 

276
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,880
are saying that we will be 
asking local authorities to kind

277
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,640
of publish regular information 
about the tribunal judgments, 

278
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,120
but also critically what they're
doing to address the problems 

279
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,440
that have come out of those 
tribunals. 

280
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,440
So it brings real transparency 
to to that system in a way that 

281
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,360
I think it hasn't at the moment,
and hopefully give families 

282
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,400
reassurance that we are 
expecting local authorities to 

283
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,440
act on where there have been 
failures and where they have 

284
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,160
been been found to be in breach 
of a law. 

285
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,840
Cool, that sounds really good. 
Accountability for local 

286
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,880
authorities. 
And transparency, yeah. 

287
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,120
Transparency as well. 
I'm going to ask the question as

288
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,920
well. 
You've touched upon it there, 

289
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,320
Georgia, the backstop question 
again. 

290
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,000
We get inundated with this from 
families again and again. 

291
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,400
So the reforms will reduce 
conflict between support because

292
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,840
support would be delivered 
properly through ISPs. 

293
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,840
If the system works, tribunal 
use would fall anyway. 

294
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,120
Definitely. 
So why remove tribunal access 

295
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,000
for the adequacy of ISP 
provisions? 

296
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,480
So I think what we're trying, 
it's not about removing tribunal

297
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,320
access, it's about where where 
that decision making is made. 

298
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,920
I think like our concern about 
the current system. 

299
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,160
And we've heard this from, you 
know, and we're, you know, a lot

300
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,560
of the time we're talking about 
special schools here, like so 

301
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:27,240
from from special schools is 
they will end up with an EHDP 

302
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,920
that says things that actually 
they don't think are like 

303
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,560
necessarily. 
And the parent doesn't think is 

304
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,000
the, you know, in the best 
interest of child written by 

305
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,080
someone who's never met the 
child, sometimes copied and 

306
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,040
pasted from another report. 
Whereas actually they want to 

307
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:47,360
develop a kind of education plan
with with the family, with the 

308
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,360
young person at that setting. 
So it's about kind of 

309
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,120
distinguishing the day-to-day 
plan to that legal entitlement. 

310
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,880
So the legal entitlement will 
still set out the kind of broad 

311
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,960
like the kind of broad 
entitlement, like, you know, 

312
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,920
access to intensive 
physiotherapy or you know, the 

313
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,240
access to a certain kind of 
social and emotional support or 

314
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,840
a setting that provides this 
kind of support. 

315
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,480
So that will be kind of that 
legal level. 

316
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,840
But actually that, you know, 
we're saying a day-to-day 

317
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,640
education level, we genuinely 
think it'll be better for 

318
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:22,840
families, young people and, and 
schools to set that that out and

319
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,000
to have an individual support 
plan and that that actually, you

320
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,720
know, that that's that's a much 
more collaborative way of doing 

321
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,680
things. 
So trying to distinguish, you 

322
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,080
know, between the stuff that you
can just get on with and and 

323
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,080
work at at a school level to to 
push. 

324
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,440
But I think, you know, these are
all areas that, you know, this 

325
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,600
is a consultation. 
If you know that those who are 

326
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,720
listening, thinking actually got
the balance not quite right 

327
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,000
there, you know, really 
encourage you to to kind of 

328
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,760
suggest ideas to be part of of 
that that that conversation. 

329
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,960
Yeah, there's actually a link, 
isn't there for the for everyone

330
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:54,880
that. 
Wants to yeah, there is. 

331
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,000
And we're going to be doing like
events around the country, we're

332
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,840
going to be doing more online 
events and, you know, lots of 

333
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,080
different opportunities to be 
able to, to input people's 

334
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,440
views, but but definitely like. 
Really important. 

335
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:10,760
Everybody does. 
That it really is. 

336
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,840
It really is next one you'll 
like this one defining complex 

337
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:15,640
needs. 
Yeah. 

338
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:16,560
Yeah. 
OK. 

339
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,640
So whole system hinges on 
qualifying for specialist 

340
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,360
provision package specialist 
tier, but complex needs isn't 

341
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,000
defined in the white paper. 
I totally get it's a difficult 

342
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,520
thing to define in a white 
paper. 

343
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,200
Who's going to set that 
threshold of what that is? 

344
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,040
So we are, and we've said in the
White Paper that we are going to

345
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,640
have a group of kind of 
independent experts who are 

346
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,520
going to come together that will
be education experts and experts

347
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,880
on health who will work, you 
know, we expect them to work 

348
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,520
with disabled children's 
organisations, parents to, to 

349
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,480
develop this. 
This is the, there has already 

350
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,560
been some work done. 
So we had an expert advisory 

351
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,920
group who have been looking at 
what is that, who is in the 

352
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,800
specialist system at the moment?
What do they need and what range

353
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,560
of support do you need in a 
place? 

354
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,960
And so we published in one of 
annexes the specialist provision

355
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,800
packages, which hopefully you've
seen that sets out the work so 

356
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,319
far. 
And we've, we wanted to be 

357
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,240
transparent because we knew 
people would kind of what does 

358
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,680
this actually mean for, for, for
my child. 

359
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,079
And I think that the reason why 
we've decided to, to do it this 

360
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,839
way, to say that we need these 
national standards to set out 

361
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,079
these specialist provision 
packages is because what we find

362
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,520
at the moment is in a place, you
might have one special school 

363
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,800
that really caters well for 
children with kind of complex 

364
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,760
learning difficulties, but for 
children who are say, like an 

365
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,520
internalising social and 
emotional needs, very, very 

366
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,160
academically gifted, but 
actually a really struggling 

367
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,360
with a, with a mainstream 
environment, actually there's 

368
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,920
not a place potentially for that
child in that area. 

369
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,080
And so we wanted to to ensure 
that we had clarity of a kind of

370
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,640
the kind of settings that you 
needed and the kind of resource 

371
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,960
that those settings would would 
need that that would set as a 

372
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,560
national standard. 
And then you can hold local 

373
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,560
authorities to account for 
ensuring those places are 

374
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,920
available. 
So when children need that 

375
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,040
provision that it's there. 
And this is about building the 

376
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,240
kind of right range of provision
in every place because at the 

377
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,240
moment is a real post code 
lottery. 

378
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,240
So even a lot of families will 
say to me I'll have an EHCP, it 

379
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,520
has everything written down but 
my child's out of school because

380
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,600
there is no place locally that 
meets their their needs or 

381
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,200
indeed travelling 2 hours. 
And we get quite a lot of 

382
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,040
parents saying that their 
children sit in that send grey 

383
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,480
zone if you like. 
Send between. 

384
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,120
Us. 
Yeah, that is too complex for 

385
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,800
standard main mainstream school,
not complex enough for a 

386
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,880
specialist setting. 
So they're always where does my 

387
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,240
child fit into this? 
Where do they? 

388
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,160
Yeah. 
And so within the the specialist

389
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,000
provision packages for those who
are listening, you haven't read 

390
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,120
them, they're kind of free kind 
of broad ranges of provision. 

391
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:56,320
We're talking about a provision 
for those with different kind of

392
00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,960
physical disability, so maybe 
visual impairment and and and so

393
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,400
on. 
Provision that is for children 

394
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,360
with learning difficulties or 
executive function needs, 

395
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,640
communication needs at the kind 
of that need that higher end 

396
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,240
support. 
And then for children with 

397
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,760
social emotional needs, either 
internalising or externalising. 

398
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,520
And this is really broad, OK, 
but they sets out the kind of 

399
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,400
provision that should that, that
is available or should be 

400
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,880
available in, in a place. 
And, and in answer to your 

401
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,760
question, you know, I, I won't 
hear, you know, you know, I'm 

402
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,080
not, you know, try and set out 
like a, a definition. 

403
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,080
I think it really needs to be 
done by those who, who have that

404
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,800
expertise. 
But I think, you know, we want a

405
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,600
system that is needs based. 
So if children's needs can be 

406
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,400
met well in a mainstream setting
with the additional support that

407
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,640
we've put in place, then you 
know that, you know, that is a 

408
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,120
really positive thing for for 
those children and that 

409
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:54,920
inclusive environment. 
If their needs are if their 

410
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,840
needs are so intense and higher 
that actually they need 

411
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,440
something more than that, you 
know, then there is the option 

412
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,720
of specialist provision or or a 
more intense package in a 

413
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,920
mainstream school. 
So I'd like to give an example. 

414
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,760
If somebody is visually 
impaired, you know, and they 

415
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,800
really, you know, really want to
be in a mainstream school, 

416
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,720
actually they might need a 
habilitation support or a 

417
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,960
qualified teacher of the 
visually impaired and assistive 

418
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,920
technology that might need a 
specific. 

419
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,800
Package, you know, because for 
that child, because it's not 

420
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,080
something the school is 
ordinarily providing, but I 

421
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,320
think you know where it comes 
you know the you know of course 

422
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,640
you know and for your listeners,
it's like what what is the line 

423
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,080
and where does it sit? 
But I think something that hope 

424
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,200
is reassuring for those those 
listening is at the moment, the 

425
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,440
feels like the line is like 
sometimes like a Cliff for 

426
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,800
families. 
You either get you get your EHCP

427
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,400
which set something out, or 
there's really nothing and it's 

428
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,200
very little in place for you. 
And it within the new system, 

429
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,040
while you're kind of if you're 
asking for an assessment or 

430
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,680
wanting support, you know there 
will be ring fence funding that 

431
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,320
goes to that school. 
And these experts at hands that 

432
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,640
we've talked about education 
psychologists, speech and 

433
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,200
language therapists, 
occupational therapists, 

434
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,080
specialist teachers that will 
wrap around schools. 

435
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,320
We think for the average 
secondary school, 160 days per 

436
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,200
year, for the average primary 
school, 40 days that they'll 

437
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,320
have access to that support. 
So there'll be professionals 

438
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,800
coming into the school meeting, 
meeting children, working with 

439
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,680
children, supporting them. 
And so if an educational 

440
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,080
psychologist is coming in and 
working with a child at that 

441
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,560
targeted plus level and actually
that, you know, on one hand, 

442
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,360
they might be able to say 
actually this could really help 

443
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,400
and we're going to put this in 
place and that makes a massive 

444
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,920
difference and they're really 
thriving. 

445
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,640
Or on the other end, they might 
say, actually we really think 

446
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,600
this child needs specialist 
provision and there is an 

447
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,160
evidence base and a piece of 
work that's done to be able to 

448
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,160
support them in that needs 
assessment which is Co produced.

449
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,240
So, you know, our intention is 
that where, where there, you 

450
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,760
know, it's less clear, you know,
it's less clear cut that 

451
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,520
actually that feels like a much 
more collaborative process with 

452
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,680
someone with people who've 
actually met your child, worked 

453
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,720
with your child within their 
setting. 

454
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,280
And the other thing I, I know we
talked about recently, but I'd 

455
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,320
really like to say this for, for
those who are listening, because

456
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,880
it's something that has been 
misinterpreted. 

457
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,760
Sometimes is this question of, 
of layers. 

458
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,960
And when we're talking about 
layers of support, they're not 

459
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,720
sequential. 
You don't have to go through the

460
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,000
universal then targeted targeted
plus to get to apply for 

461
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,760
specialist You if you want to go
forward for a needs assessment 

462
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,240
at you know, the first point 
that you know that's going to be

463
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,640
available for you. 
If a school. 

464
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,240
You know, if you think that if 
it's clear that you need that 

465
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,600
targeted plus and support from 
day one that that that's 

466
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,240
possible to do. 
You know, we are really trying 

467
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,640
to put much more resource closer
to children so that there's not 

468
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,840
lots of barriers statutory 
processes. 

469
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,400
You don't need a diagnosis to 
draw on the experts at hand 

470
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,280
offer. 
You know, that is just available

471
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,800
really quickly to to support 
families and so that you know, 

472
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,520
that's how we how we envision it
it working in the new system. 

473
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,880
To tie tie a bow on that. 
So essentially for anyone that 

474
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,200
doesn't really get that when 
instead of looking at their 

475
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,920
child and going, well, my child 
is 7 years old and still in 

476
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,720
nappies and can't talk, instead 
of looking at that way around, 

477
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,120
it's going to be looked at. 
Where can your needs be met? 

478
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,760
OK, Your needs can be met by 
this mainstream in, in targeted 

479
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,640
plus. 
So you're targeted plus in the 

480
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,280
reverse of what we all thought 
it was. 

481
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,320
It's the other way. 
Where can your needs be met? 

482
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,160
They can only be met in a 
specialist setting. 

483
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,480
So you're going to be in a 
specialist group in this, OK. 

484
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,880
Yeah, that's exactly it. 
And you know, and it's really 

485
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,200
understanding the needs of that 
child. 

486
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,680
But also, you know what we are 
really committed to any, you 

487
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,000
know, what we're not saying is 
that you have to be in a 

488
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,360
specialist provision. 
And if you know, if it's really 

489
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,800
important for that really 
important, right, which is 

490
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,200
within our education system to 
write to a mainstream education.

491
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,280
So for those families who really
want their child to be, you 

492
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,760
know, who could be in a special 
school, but they want them to be

493
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,680
in a mainstream school, we're 
really clear that EHCPS will 

494
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,920
continue to exist in mainstream 
schools and that that support, 

495
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600
you know, can be put in place to
to wrap around a child. 

496
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,800
But one of I think the real 
advantages of giving more ring 

497
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:23,280
fenced money to schools to 
support children is that that 

498
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,120
support can just be available. 
So at the moment, I hear this a 

499
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,840
lot from schools. 
You might be a child who's in, 

500
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,120
you know, Year 5 and you fought 
and fought for an EHCP as a 

501
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,880
school as well as the parent. 
And then it finally comes and 

502
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,920
you might employ somebody for 
two years and then the child 

503
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,440
leaves and then actually that 
funding goes and you don't it's 

504
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,000
really hard to to plan 
consistent provision. 

505
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,720
So over time, you know, we do 
really hope that there will be 

506
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,360
more children who can be 
supported in mainstream school. 

507
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,120
And as you kind of bring forward
some of the money that you would

508
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,320
have spent on EHPS and I'm 
talking post 2030 and you and 

509
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,320
you start investing that like 
directly in schools. 

510
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,440
So we are putting some upfront 
new money in, but over time we 

511
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,320
want more money to be going into
mainstream schools. 

512
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,760
Just build the provision so then
it so when a child's there, it's

513
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,160
actually much easier just to 
meet their needs without needing

514
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,560
to fight for money like for for 
different money to come forward,

515
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,520
if that makes sense. 
Pick one. 

516
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,520
Pick one, the best one. 
This one's one that comes up. 

517
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,040
Obviously workforce reality. 
The model relies heavily on 

518
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,800
speech therapies, education, 
psychology, psychologist, 

519
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,160
specialist staff, everything and
everything else like that. 

520
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,840
We already know professionals 
are in short supply. 

521
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,360
How do we overcome that? 
So if a child in 2027 is put 

522
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:43,800
into a a school, but there's 
simply not the specialist there 

523
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,920
are set out what happens to the 
child? 

524
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,440
What what is the case here? 
And what is government doing to 

525
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,440
Yeah? 
I think and that you know on all

526
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,280
of this, This is why we're 
taking such a staged approach. 

527
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,000
And you know, we need to, this 
is an area that we really need 

528
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,720
to build up. 
So it's not there at the moment 

529
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,200
and we're really clear about 
that and we want to build it up 

530
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,920
over the next few years. 
So then the money and investment

531
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,760
that talking about starts this 
kind of calendar year, the 

532
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,240
financial year. 
So you know from from April that

533
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,720
that money will start to to go 
into to places around the 

534
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,360
country and working really 
closely with health on building 

535
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,120
up that workforce. 
So we put 40 million in for 

536
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,280
training. 
It's a new speech language 

537
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,880
apprenticeship that that's in 
place, training into educational

538
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,280
psychologists as well. 
And so there's going to be a 

539
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,320
real focus on how we build up 
that work through with health. 

540
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,680
It's embedded into their 
workforce plan, but really 

541
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,640
recognising that there are areas
of a country which are kind of 

542
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,040
at the moment, real cold spots. 
So I was talking to parent carer

543
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
for him and Isle of Wight and 
they were talking about actually

544
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,800
having to kind of, you know, go 
off the island in order to, to 

545
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,960
kind of get that access to 
support. 

546
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,320
So what part of the work we want
to do over the next few years is

547
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,800
making sure that there is that 
consistency of those of that 

548
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,000
offer. 
So we can be really clear by the

549
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,960
time we're, we're, you know, 
fully transitioning that that's 

550
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680
in place. 
And but I hope that one of the 

551
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,440
things that gives reassurance 
when we're talking about this is

552
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,560
we've set out quite clearly what
our expectation is, you know, 

553
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,840
160 days for a secondary, 40 
days for a primary as I as I was

554
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,600
saying, and what that means in 
times of workforce. 

555
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,520
We are going to be asking the 
Children's Commissioner to hold 

556
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,640
us to account around around 
system readiness. 

557
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,080
So every year we should we 
expecting to see things improve,

558
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,880
new specialist places coming on 
board. 

559
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,960
We put 3.7 billion into that. 
Teachers being trained, we back 

560
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,920
with 200 million. 
We've said that every best start

561
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,760
hub, so your early years support
will have a send practitioner 

562
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,840
and we're putting 200 million 
into backing that up. 

563
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,440
That actually has to meet people
have to see and feel that within

564
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,960
their communities, within their 
schools, within their places. 

565
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,760
And we are going to be asking at
that system level, the 

566
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,000
Children's Commissioner to help 
us assess that system readiness.

567
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,240
And one of the conversations 
we're having is how we ensure 

568
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,920
that the voices of young people 
are also, they're also part of, 

569
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,680
of assessing that change. 
But, but we also recognise the 

570
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,160
importance of accountability. 
And we talked about local 

571
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,880
authority accountability, but 
there's also accountability of 

572
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,760
integrated care boards and the 
health side and accountability 

573
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,400
of schools. 
And we've changed Ofsted to 

574
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,720
include that focus on inclusion.
So, you know, as we go forward, 

575
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,080
you know, in every area, we need
to be really kind of monitoring 

576
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,080
the progress of on developing 
this, this new system. 

577
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,320
And, and, and so it's something 
that people feel. 

578
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,560
And I think, you know, I 
something I have heard just so 

579
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,920
many times is the well, you 
know, the extent to which 

580
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,120
parents have been let down, the 
extent of failure, and that 

581
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,560
there's not a lot of trust in, 
you know, us as government and 

582
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,760
local authorities. 
Sometimes, you know, depending 

583
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,120
on, on their experience, 
sometimes in in schools and the,

584
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,520
you know, people is, and it's 
very hard to trust if you're in 

585
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,960
a system where you're being 
failed and your needs aren't and

586
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,240
your child's needs are being 
mad. 

587
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,000
And I just think it's the, it's 
just horrendous. 

588
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,920
The amount of people I've spoken
to have just had to watch their 

589
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,600
child fall behind and they've 
just know that something can be 

590
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,320
done and they haven't been able 
to in the fight of the 

591
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,680
bureaucracy and, and so on. 
And so I think that, you know, 

592
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
this, this, you know, it has to 
get better. 

593
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,880
And we cannot do that on our 
own. 

594
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,120
It has to be a whole system 
change working with families. 

595
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,880
And I'm really, really committed
to building that trust. 

596
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,520
And I know that the only way to 
build it is to actually see the 

597
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,520
change on the ground. 
So you know, we're saying really

598
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,200
clearly this is a 10 year 
commitment to change. 

599
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240
We've really heard from families
and that it can't happen all at 

600
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,080
once. 
It has to be staged. 

601
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,240
We have to build that new system
first. 

602
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,560
But it it's, and I, you know, so
you know, it's not going to be 

603
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,720
overnight that everything is 
going to change, but every year 

604
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,640
it has to get better and all 
these things need to come 

605
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,960
together to create a better 
system. 

606
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,600
So, you know, and in order to do
that, we have to work together. 

607
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,840
And that's why it's so important
to me that we continue this 

608
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,800
conversation that if where 
people where you're looking at 

609
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,480
it feel actually you've not got 
that quite right. 

610
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200
It's not going to work. 
It's not, you know, we need to 

611
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,160
hear that and to continue to 
look at solutions together. 

612
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,040
And there are a whole host of 
areas in the same consultation 

613
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,760
document where we've said quite 
explicitly where we don't have 

614
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,640
the full answer. 
For example, parental support. 

615
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,640
We really want to put more 
resource into parental support. 

616
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,120
There's lots of different ways 
to do that. 

617
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,680
We would really welcome ideas on
how to do that. 

618
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,040
Talked about the needs 
assessment and Co designing it. 

619
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,520
So there's a whole host of areas
we really hope that we can 

620
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,280
continue to work to gather on. 
And yeah, I'll re emphasise, I 

621
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,400
really hope people can be part 
of a consultation. 

622
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,160
We want that to be a meaningful 
consultation. 

623
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,600
It's cool. 
Well, I think we've run out of 

624
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,600
time. 
We have run out of time. 

625
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,400
Sorry I'm. 
Sure, there's loads of other 

626
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,280
things. 
That's fine. 

627
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,040
That's fine. 
Yeah, We can maybe do a follow 

628
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,200
up episode or something. 
Thank. 

629
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,560
You very much. 
For Yeah, really. 

630
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,200
Appreciating the time, really. 
Really do appreciate it. 

631
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,880
Thank you. 
Everyone that we spoke to that's

632
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,400
worked with you, trust you, 
likes you. 

633
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,760
So yeah, they've got a lot of 
faith in there in that's. 

634
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,040
A lot. 
That's a big responsibility. 

635
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,720
I know, that's why I said it. 
Yeah. 

636
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,040
Yeah. 
But thank you. 

637
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,720
I really feel that the 
responsibility of the stories 

638
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,440
that you've heard, that people 
have shared with you, it's just 

639
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,280
there is. 
Yeah. 

640
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,200
Is it has. 
Yeah. 

641
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,800
As I said, it has to get better.
But yeah. 

642
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,320
Thank you so much, guys. 
Take care.