Hello mate. Hello again.
How are you not too bad different setting?
Different setting today. Different setting.
Little bit nicer than ours. I'll be honest.
Tad. Little tad nicer.
Another special episode today mate.
It is indeed, Yes. We've been invited to the
Department for Education by the Minister for Schools, George
Gould. How are you doing?
I'm good, I'm good. Delighted to have you here
again. Thank.
You very much again, Yeah. Always here now.
Yeah, we. Were here is it just before
Christmas, wasn't it? Yeah, so.
But it's nice to actually come down in the day because
obviously the office was empty, wasn't it?
Yeah, of course. Yeah, Somebody working and it's
sunny today, so yeah. Absolutely, And it's World Book
Day. World Book Day, so.
We'll. Tell us about World Book Day,
because it's not just World Book Day to you, is it?
Yeah, we were just talking about this.
So my mum is was a publisher and many years ago in like 1998 I
think she with a group of other publishers actually founded,
well Book Day. It was all about opening up
access to reading and getting publishers to provide these 1 LB
books. So it's actually been so nice
today because my little one is 2.
It was his first World Book Day at nursery.
He was dressed up as a little tiger and I got my mum to come
and read to him in nursery and it was like a proper full circle
moment. Like really, really special to
see, you know, what it's become, which has just been absolutely
amazing. It was just so.
Cool, he thought you were dressed up for World Book Day.
As well. Yeah.
So I was trying to explain to him about dressing up You're a
tiger like the book. And he looked at me and was
like, oh mummy, you're dressed up as a flower.
So it was quite smart actually. Because yeah, so thank you for
inviting us, Dania, first and foremost.
You didn't have to. You actually wanted to come on.
Yeah, I really did. It wasn't I was pestering you.
It was you kind. Of saying I was pestering you,
I'd. Like to come on.
So thank you for. That I know you have a big
audience. Yeah, I know that this is, you
know, there's a lot of information out there.
And I just, you know, I'm really keen firstly that everyone joins
the consultation, but also that, you know, get a sense of what,
where we're coming from, you know, the the plans in detail.
And, you know, it's part of that dialogue.
So I'm very grateful for the opportunity.
Cool. Are you ready?
I'm ready. You're ready.
I hope so. I don't know.
You're scaring me. Now let's dive in.
Let's dive in. Let's start with a nice easy 1,
the tribunal gap. So we'll go straight in there.
So the white paper says parents can Appeal Tribunal decisions
about specialist provision packages, but the day-to-day
support sits inside individual support plans.
If a school writes a poor ISP and refuses to improve it, what
legal route does a parent have to challenge that?
Yes. So I think within the new system
that we we're keeping the tribunal as a really important
backstop to the needs assessment to the specialist provision
package. And in terms of the the
individual support and education.
When we're saying in the new system that that will be written
at the setting level, but that the specialist provision package
will set out like the broad entitlement that a child, you
know, should have access to you. So you know, it could be access
to physiotherapy or certain kind of curriculum or you know, that
kind of wider entitlement. The reason we're setting that
out just just to start there is because at the moment I hear a
lot from families that actually a caseworker is writing their
child's education plan. There's actually never met the
child. It's often not updated.
I was actually just talking to someone this morning who was
saying that that their EHCP had outcomes from Year 5 and their
child was 17. You know, that is, you know,
it's not a live document that's helpful for schools.
We want the individual support plan to be a document that is
developed and collaborated at a school based level.
So if, if a parent is unhappy with a specialist provision
package, that broad entitlement, they can still go to the
tribunal on the individual support plan.
We're saying that that, you know, that will go through the
school complaints process if you're unhappy with some of that
day-to-day provision. So just to clarify, parents
again cannot challenge the adequacy of ISAP at tribunal.
Not the ISP. They can.
It's the the the the kind of the the provision.
OK. OK.
That leads quite well to the next one then.
OK. Which is the complaints panel?
Yeah. OK.
So the complaints panel will have one independent send
expert. Yeah, yeah.
And everyone else is made-up of school governors I'm assuming?
Yeah. OK.
So if that expert is out voted
by everyone else on the by the governors essentially, what's
the outcome then Essentially that is a possibility, isn't it,
that that. I think that, you know, the, the
reason we're putting that independent person onto the
complaints panel is we are really aware and we've heard
from a lot of families that there is a real concern that
there is that not that knowledge about special educational needs
and disabilities within some of those complaint processes and
that, you know, their voices aren't heard.
And so it's it's to bring that expertise.
So we expect them to have real and as part of that decision
making at the complaints level. And then and so it is, but that
kind of sits alongside the wider accountability that will sit on
schools in the new system. So schools will have a legal
duty to develop individual support plans to develop
inclusion plans that meet these new national standards.
So, you know, the minimum expected ordinarily available
provision that will be set out nationally at the the duty to
develop targeted and targeted plus layers of support to
collaborate with families on individual support plans.
All of that will will be a legal duty.
So that there will be an Ofsted, you know, as as an inspection
regime, we'll be looking at that in terms of what they look at at
schools. So the but we, but we really
aware and have heard very clearly that, you know, there
needs to be a way that parents can raise that individual
concern and that is why we're changing that school's
complaints process to bring that independence send role into it.
OK. It's great.
It's great that there is going to be an independent summit roll
on there. What if they did get voted out,
for example, they were voted out and the parent then still wants
to challenge it. She can't go to tribunal at this
point, can she? Because the last point is.
So you couldn't go on you, you know, there's a, so if you want
to challenge a complaint that's made in that circumstances, the
next route would be go to go to the DfE.
But then if you, you are unhappy with the broader education your
child was getting, so you were in the targeted plus group and
you are unhappy with the individual support plan and
you've gone through that whole process, you could, you know,
that's always available to you to ask for a needs assessment to
get that specialist support. So, so you know, that is another
route into, into support as an individual family.
If you had felt that actually it just wasn't working, you tried
everything within that school and you just thought that your
child was not getting the kind of support they needed, you
could then go forward and ask for a needs assessment.
And if you are unhappy with a local authority judgement about
that needs assessment, you could go to tribunal.
OK, so I was going to say, because the biggest issue
parents going to have is they'll be relying on the local
authority, which obviously as you know, I know you've heard it
a million times before, the local authority is what a lot of
people got an issue with. So this 100% so that and
actually that was something that changed as part of the
engagement. So we, one of the things we
were, were looking at is that decision about a needs
assessment potentially going to the Local Government Ombudsman
that was to, to make it kind of faster and hope and, and cheaper
to get that redress. But you know, the families, the
disabled children's organisations we were working
with were really clear that they felt that needs assessment
needed a legal backstop. And so we changed that.
And then in the, in the proposals, the tribunal backs up
that needs assessment. But I think the thing I really
want to say to families is we will have failed if we're in a
system where families are having to, if that is the way they're
getting support, if families, the only way they can get
support is going through all these different processes, going
to the tribunal around the needs assessment and, and, and so on.
It has to be a system that is much more collaborative.
And within the the document, there's a commitment to Co
design the assessment process because something I've heard
time and time again is that can be a really, really difficult
process where there's not a lot of transparency.
Everyone disappears for a long time and then you get a
judgement and your parents and sometimes even Senkos and
support staff don't feel that they are heard as part of that
process. So that is something we want to
do throughout the consultation is to improve that and make that
better. But we also want to hold local
authorities to account on that performance.
And you know, that if there's been one message I've heard so
strongly from from families is just the powerlessness they feel
of watching things get worse and worse for their children.
And they just, nobody is listening to them And, and they
can't and they can't challenge that.
And that, you know, and unless they're going through the
tribunal process and all the expense and stress that that
entails. So we want it to be a backstop,
but you know it, it would not be success for us if that was the
the main way to get support. So in terms of that local
authority accountability and support.
So we're putting more funding into local authorities.
Your listeners will know that many local authorities have
developed large deficit, so we're going to be supporting 90%
of those deficits around the country.
But that money is conditional on every council developing a send
improvement plan that we are, you know, shortly going to be
writing to councils about. And that you know, that will be
based on their performance on a whole range of metrics that
we're going to be monitoring very closely.
And we're going to be really clear that if there is failure,
you know, we will intervene. And we've said in, in the
document, if there is sustainable in multiple failure,
then, you know, we, we have the right to take, send off a
council and move into a trust as we have in children's social
care. So we, we, we are really, you
know, we and this is something I really feel deeply because I've
heard how hard it is for families.
We as the DfE have to be really holding systems to account for
that performance for families. It should not be on the burdens
of, you know, individual families to have this fight time
and time again. We have to be doing this at a,
at a national level and that does mean putting in the right
support and funding, but it also means stronger accountability.
And we're really committed to that.
But, but you know, I know it will hopefully offer reassurance
that, you know, given everything, you know, every,
every family, if they are concerned that their child needs
specialist support and it's not and it's not being offered and
they're not happy with the, the kind of system we're building at
the, I move my hands too much when I talk.
But if they're not happy with a system and that sorry, they're
not happy with the support their child has and they think they
need something more, they can ask for a needs assessment and
that will be backed by the tribunal.
OK. I've just got a quick one.
Yeah, of course, the obviously the 90% debt that is going to
get written off, you said it's conditional.
Do we know what those conditions are?
So we're working through them at the moment.
So yeah, that they will. And we'll be making that, you
know, setting, setting that out. There's a concern that the.
Performance metrics that we will be holding councils to account
and people, I bet you're going to say people are concerned it's
only about the money and not about the and not about
outcomes. And I just want to really assure
you this is about outcomes for children.
Yes, I think yeah, the the the worry would be that these that
some of the conditions might be make sure you don't issue X
amount of no. It's the opposite.
Great. Is this is about, you know, this
is about like, you know, we need to obviously Betty, better
timeliness of decision making. You know, we do want to see more
support earlier. There are some children and
families who are having to go for a statutory process when
they could have been well supported if a support was
available earlier. We want that.
We don't want to force people into that statute process.
But this is not about, you know, taking that route away from
families that need it. So the kind of things we'll be
looking at are, you know, the number of children who are out
of education in a place, the number of inclusion bases that
are attached to mainstream schools.
The, the kind of the range of the, the, the specialist support
available, the, the kind of journeys that children are
making. You know, there's a whole range
of different metrics that we'll be looking at and timeliness of
decision making around EHD, PS and tribunal judgments.
And another really important area of accountability that also
came from the national conversation actually was a
Disabled Children's Partnership idea from their Fight for
Ordinary report is to bring more transparency to the tribunal
process. So at the moment it can be a bit
of a black box. You know, we don't know, you
know, we know on a national level, but we don't really know
locally about the tribunal judgments.
How, you know how many families have gone to the tribunal
multiple times and how local authorities are responding to
that. So within the consultation, we
are saying that we will be asking local authorities to kind
of publish regular information about the tribunal judgments,
but also critically what they're doing to address the problems
that have come out of those tribunals.
So it brings real transparency to to that system in a way that
I think it hasn't at the moment, and hopefully give families
reassurance that we are expecting local authorities to
act on where there have been failures and where they have
been been found to be in breach of a law.
Cool, that sounds really good. Accountability for local
authorities. And transparency, yeah.
Transparency as well. I'm going to ask the question as
well. You've touched upon it there,
Georgia, the backstop question again.
We get inundated with this from families again and again.
So the reforms will reduce conflict between support because
support would be delivered properly through ISPs.
If the system works, tribunal use would fall anyway.
Definitely. So why remove tribunal access
for the adequacy of ISP provisions?
So I think what we're trying, it's not about removing tribunal
access, it's about where where that decision making is made.
I think like our concern about the current system.
And we've heard this from, you know, and we're, you know, a lot
of the time we're talking about special schools here, like so
from from special schools is they will end up with an EHDP
that says things that actually they don't think are like
necessarily. And the parent doesn't think is
the, you know, in the best interest of child written by
someone who's never met the child, sometimes copied and
pasted from another report. Whereas actually they want to
develop a kind of education plan with with the family, with the
young person at that setting. So it's about kind of
distinguishing the day-to-day plan to that legal entitlement.
So the legal entitlement will still set out the kind of broad
like the kind of broad entitlement, like, you know,
access to intensive physiotherapy or you know, the
access to a certain kind of social and emotional support or
a setting that provides this kind of support.
So that will be kind of that legal level.
But actually that, you know, we're saying a day-to-day
education level, we genuinely think it'll be better for
families, young people and, and schools to set that that out and
to have an individual support plan and that that actually, you
know, that that's that's a much more collaborative way of doing
things. So trying to distinguish, you
know, between the stuff that you can just get on with and and
work at at a school level to to push.
But I think, you know, these are all areas that, you know, this
is a consultation. If you know that those who are
listening, thinking actually got the balance not quite right
there, you know, really encourage you to to kind of
suggest ideas to be part of of that that that conversation.
Yeah, there's actually a link, isn't there for the for everyone
that. Wants to yeah, there is.
And we're going to be doing like events around the country, we're
going to be doing more online events and, you know, lots of
different opportunities to be able to, to input people's
views, but but definitely like. Really important.
Everybody does. That it really is.
It really is next one you'll like this one defining complex
needs. Yeah.
OK.
So whole system hinges on qualifying for specialist
provision package specialist tier, but complex needs isn't
defined in the white paper. I totally get it's a difficult
thing to define in a white paper.
Who's going to set that threshold of what that is?
So we are, and we've said in the White Paper that we are going to
have a group of kind of independent experts who are
going to come together that will be education experts and experts
on health who will work, you know, we expect them to work
with disabled children's organisations, parents to, to
develop this. This is the, there has already
been some work done. So we had an expert advisory
group who have been looking at what is that, who is in the
specialist system at the moment? What do they need and what range
of support do you need in a place?
And so we published in one of annexes the specialist provision
packages, which hopefully you've seen that sets out the work so
far. And we've, we wanted to be
transparent because we knew people would kind of what does
this actually mean for, for, for my child.
And I think that the reason why we've decided to, to do it this
way, to say that we need these national standards to set out
these specialist provision packages is because what we find
at the moment is in a place, you might have one special school
that really caters well for children with kind of complex
learning difficulties, but for children who are say, like an
internalising social and emotional needs, very, very
academically gifted, but actually a really struggling
with a, with a mainstream environment, actually there's
not a place potentially for that child in that area.
And so we wanted to to ensure that we had clarity of a kind of
the kind of settings that you needed and the kind of resource
that those settings would would need that that would set as a
national standard. And then you can hold local
authorities to account for ensuring those places are
available. So when children need that
provision that it's there. And this is about building the
kind of right range of provision in every place because at the
moment is a real post code lottery.
So even a lot of families will say to me I'll have an EHCP, it
has everything written down but my child's out of school because
there is no place locally that meets their their needs or
indeed travelling 2 hours. And we get quite a lot of
parents saying that their children sit in that send grey
zone if you like. Send between.
Us. Yeah, that is too complex for
standard main mainstream school, not complex enough for a
specialist setting. So they're always where does my
child fit into this? Where do they?
Yeah. And so within the the specialist
provision packages for those who are listening, you haven't read
them, they're kind of free kind of broad ranges of provision.
We're talking about a provision for those with different kind of
physical disability, so maybe visual impairment and and and so
on. Provision that is for children
with learning difficulties or executive function needs,
communication needs at the kind of that need that higher end
support. And then for children with
social emotional needs, either internalising or externalising.
And this is really broad, OK, but they sets out the kind of
provision that should that, that is available or should be
available in, in a place. And, and in answer to your
question, you know, I, I won't hear, you know, you know, I'm
not, you know, try and set out like a, a definition.
I think it really needs to be done by those who, who have that
expertise. But I think, you know, we want a
system that is needs based. So if children's needs can be
met well in a mainstream setting with the additional support that
we've put in place, then you know that, you know, that is a
really positive thing for for those children and that
inclusive environment. If their needs are if their
needs are so intense and higher that actually they need
something more than that, you know, then there is the option
of specialist provision or or a more intense package in a
mainstream school. So I'd like to give an example.
If somebody is visually impaired, you know, and they
really, you know, really want to be in a mainstream school,
actually they might need a habilitation support or a
qualified teacher of the visually impaired and assistive
technology that might need a specific.
Package, you know, because for that child, because it's not
something the school is ordinarily providing, but I
think you know where it comes you know the you know of course
you know and for your listeners, it's like what what is the line
and where does it sit? But I think something that hope
is reassuring for those those listening is at the moment, the
feels like the line is like sometimes like a Cliff for
families. You either get you get your EHCP
which set something out, or there's really nothing and it's
very little in place for you. And it within the new system,
while you're kind of if you're asking for an assessment or
wanting support, you know there will be ring fence funding that
goes to that school. And these experts at hands that
we've talked about education psychologists, speech and
language therapists, occupational therapists,
specialist teachers that will wrap around schools.
We think for the average secondary school, 160 days per
year, for the average primary school, 40 days that they'll
have access to that support. So there'll be professionals
coming into the school meeting, meeting children, working with
children, supporting them. And so if an educational
psychologist is coming in and working with a child at that
targeted plus level and actually that, you know, on one hand,
they might be able to say actually this could really help
and we're going to put this in place and that makes a massive
difference and they're really thriving.
Or on the other end, they might say, actually we really think
this child needs specialist provision and there is an
evidence base and a piece of work that's done to be able to
support them in that needs assessment which is Co produced.
So, you know, our intention is that where, where there, you
know, it's less clear, you know, it's less clear cut that
actually that feels like a much more collaborative process with
someone with people who've actually met your child, worked
with your child within their setting.
And the other thing I, I know we talked about recently, but I'd
really like to say this for, for those who are listening, because
it's something that has been misinterpreted.
Sometimes is this question of, of layers.
And when we're talking about layers of support, they're not
sequential. You don't have to go through the
universal then targeted targeted plus to get to apply for
specialist You if you want to go forward for a needs assessment
at you know, the first point that you know that's going to be
available for you. If a school.
You know, if you think that if it's clear that you need that
targeted plus and support from day one that that that's
possible to do. You know, we are really trying
to put much more resource closer to children so that there's not
lots of barriers statutory processes.
You don't need a diagnosis to draw on the experts at hand
offer. You know, that is just available
really quickly to to support families and so that you know,
that's how we how we envision it it working in the new system.
To tie tie a bow on that. So essentially for anyone that
doesn't really get that when instead of looking at their
child and going, well, my child is 7 years old and still in
nappies and can't talk, instead of looking at that way around,
it's going to be looked at. Where can your needs be met?
OK, Your needs can be met by this mainstream in, in targeted
plus. So you're targeted plus in the
reverse of what we all thought it was.
It's the other way. Where can your needs be met?
They can only be met in a specialist setting.
So you're going to be in a specialist group in this, OK.
Yeah, that's exactly it. And you know, and it's really
understanding the needs of that child.
But also, you know what we are really committed to any, you
know, what we're not saying is that you have to be in a
specialist provision. And if you know, if it's really
important for that really important, right, which is
within our education system to write to a mainstream education.
So for those families who really want their child to be, you
know, who could be in a special school, but they want them to be
in a mainstream school, we're really clear that EHCPS will
continue to exist in mainstream schools and that that support,
you know, can be put in place to to wrap around a child.
But one of I think the real advantages of giving more ring
fenced money to schools to support children is that that
support can just be available. So at the moment, I hear this a
lot from schools. You might be a child who's in,
you know, Year 5 and you fought and fought for an EHCP as a
school as well as the parent. And then it finally comes and
you might employ somebody for two years and then the child
leaves and then actually that funding goes and you don't it's
really hard to to plan consistent provision.
So over time, you know, we do really hope that there will be
more children who can be supported in mainstream school.
And as you kind of bring forward some of the money that you would
have spent on EHPS and I'm talking post 2030 and you and
you start investing that like directly in schools.
So we are putting some upfront new money in, but over time we
want more money to be going into mainstream schools.
Just build the provision so then it so when a child's there, it's
actually much easier just to meet their needs without needing
to fight for money like for for different money to come forward,
if that makes sense. Pick one.
Pick one, the best one. This one's one that comes up.
Obviously workforce reality. The model relies heavily on
speech therapies, education, psychology, psychologist,
specialist staff, everything and everything else like that.
We already know professionals are in short supply.
How do we overcome that? So if a child in 2027 is put
into a a school, but there's simply not the specialist there
are set out what happens to the child?
What what is the case here? And what is government doing to
Yeah? I think and that you know on all
of this, This is why we're taking such a staged approach.
And you know, we need to, this is an area that we really need
to build up. So it's not there at the moment
and we're really clear about that and we want to build it up
over the next few years. So then the money and investment
that talking about starts this kind of calendar year, the
financial year. So you know from from April that
that money will start to to go into to places around the
country and working really closely with health on building
up that workforce. So we put 40 million in for
training. It's a new speech language
apprenticeship that that's in place, training into educational
psychologists as well. And so there's going to be a
real focus on how we build up that work through with health.
It's embedded into their workforce plan, but really
recognising that there are areas of a country which are kind of
at the moment, real cold spots. So I was talking to parent carer
for him and Isle of Wight and they were talking about actually
having to kind of, you know, go off the island in order to, to
kind of get that access to support.
So what part of the work we want to do over the next few years is
making sure that there is that consistency of those of that
offer. So we can be really clear by the
time we're, we're, you know, fully transitioning that that's
in place. And but I hope that one of the
things that gives reassurance when we're talking about this is
we've set out quite clearly what our expectation is, you know,
160 days for a secondary, 40 days for a primary as I as I was
saying, and what that means in times of workforce.
We are going to be asking the Children's Commissioner to hold
us to account around around system readiness.
So every year we should we expecting to see things improve,
new specialist places coming on board.
We put 3.7 billion into that. Teachers being trained, we back
with 200 million. We've said that every best start
hub, so your early years support will have a send practitioner
and we're putting 200 million into backing that up.
That actually has to meet people have to see and feel that within
their communities, within their schools, within their places.
And we are going to be asking at that system level, the
Children's Commissioner to help us assess that system readiness.
And one of the conversations we're having is how we ensure
that the voices of young people are also, they're also part of,
of assessing that change. But, but we also recognise the
importance of accountability. And we talked about local
authority accountability, but there's also accountability of
integrated care boards and the health side and accountability
of schools. And we've changed Ofsted to
include that focus on inclusion. So, you know, as we go forward,
you know, in every area, we need to be really kind of monitoring
the progress of on developing this, this new system.
And, and, and so it's something that people feel.
And I think, you know, I something I have heard just so
many times is the well, you know, the extent to which
parents have been let down, the extent of failure, and that
there's not a lot of trust in, you know, us as government and
local authorities. Sometimes, you know, depending
on, on their experience, sometimes in in schools and the,
you know, people is, and it's very hard to trust if you're in
a system where you're being failed and your needs aren't and
your child's needs are being mad.
And I just think it's the, it's just horrendous.
The amount of people I've spoken to have just had to watch their
child fall behind and they've just know that something can be
done and they haven't been able to in the fight of the
bureaucracy and, and so on. And so I think that, you know,
this, this, you know, it has to get better.
And we cannot do that on our own.
It has to be a whole system change working with families.
And I'm really, really committed to building that trust.
And I know that the only way to build it is to actually see the
change on the ground. So you know, we're saying really
clearly this is a 10 year commitment to change.
We've really heard from families and that it can't happen all at
once. It has to be staged.
We have to build that new system first.
But it it's, and I, you know, so you know, it's not going to be
overnight that everything is going to change, but every year
it has to get better and all these things need to come
together to create a better system.
So, you know, and in order to do that, we have to work together.
And that's why it's so important to me that we continue this
conversation that if where people where you're looking at
it feel actually you've not got that quite right.
It's not going to work. It's not, you know, we need to
hear that and to continue to look at solutions together.
And there are a whole host of areas in the same consultation
document where we've said quite explicitly where we don't have
the full answer. For example, parental support.
We really want to put more resource into parental support.
There's lots of different ways to do that.
We would really welcome ideas on how to do that.
Talked about the needs assessment and Co designing it.
So there's a whole host of areas we really hope that we can
continue to work to gather on. And yeah, I'll re emphasise, I
really hope people can be part of a consultation.
We want that to be a meaningful consultation.
It's cool. Well, I think we've run out of
time. We have run out of time.
Sorry I'm. Sure, there's loads of other
things. That's fine.
Yeah, We can maybe do a follow
up episode or something. Thank.
You very much. For Yeah, really.
Appreciating the time, really. Really do appreciate it.
Thank you. Everyone that we spoke to that's
worked with you, trust you, likes you.
So yeah, they've got a lot of faith in there in that's.
A lot. That's a big responsibility.
I know, that's why I said it. Yeah.
But thank you.
I really feel that the responsibility of the stories
that you've heard, that people have shared with you, it's just
there is. Yeah.
Is it has. Yeah.
As I said, it has to get better. But yeah.
Thank you so much, guys. Take care.