This is at the Extremes, beloved.
Welcome back to At the Extremes to the podcast where we discuss
the extremes in our society. And now we got here.
As always, we are your host. I'm Greg.
It's Judy and. Today we're going to be talking
about the Stonewall uprising. But before we get into it, Judy,
silver lining. Oh caught me off guard with
that. How?
Because we open every show this way.
Of course, I've always got a silver lining.
Greg, how silly of you. This week there were, you know,
the extreme lows of the world as we know.
But there there's always a few glimmers.
And I had one. We have this, one of the
signature workouts at my gym, air quotes around signature,
meaning it's like a special thing and you'll see it come
around probably about once a quarter, maybe less than that.
I don't really know how frequently these benchmark days
occur, but they are there to like sort of test your
endurance, your strength, how much you've improved.
So the idea is either to shave some time off, add some meters
on. So anyway, this workout is kind
of a fun one. You, you are, you start with 100
meters and then after you do 100 meters, you hop off of the
rowing machine and you hop onto a treadmill and you can either
Sprint or you can power walk. If you Sprint, it's, it's a 10th
of a mile and if you power walk, it's 1/2 that.
So you know, with a new strategy this time, I will not reveal
that on on this podcast, but with a new strategy, I was able
to add 722 meters from my previous best time.
I finally broke through like the 4000 meter mark.
You add 100 meters every time you go back to the rower.
So you do 100 meters, run or walk 200, go back to the
treadmill, 300, so on and so forth.
And you just try to rack up as many meters as possible.
So anyway, it was one of those like endurance strength, power
testing type days. And yeah, I was just, I was
proud. So I've hit, I've hit a lot of
benchmarks as of as of late and I like that.
That's big. That's big.
That's big deal. Yeah, especially at your your
advanced age. That's a big deal.
Dare you? Actually, it's funny you should
say that because I am eating humble pie at this point, like
this decade that I have entered the new age bracket just a few
short two months ago is full of monsters.
And I, and I mean like the people in my age group are in
significant shape. And I, I will not be seeing a
leaderboard for quite a while because these women are
monsters. And like, it's going to be very
hard to get kind of back to a place where I'm beating these
people. This is the decade to to be in.
Apparently we call it the masters.
So. So I've entered the masters and
I am humble. Well, I'm glad to hear that you
have something to chase now. It's true.
And I, I like kind of starting over and just being like, I'm
new here and I, I recognize my, my ranking in the pecking order.
Hi I'm Judy, I am new to this. New to new to the decade, new to
the age group. Hello, welcome.
See my Gray hairs? That's fantastic.
I yeah, this week's been this
week has been tough. You're right.
All the things that are happening specifically with the
Supreme Court just a couple days ago and the book could be
devastating rulings that they're laying down.
But silver lining wise, I started a new, I don't know,
call it a practice, but it for lack of a better term of
practice of writing up a daily affirmation on my whiteboard at
work and pairing that with a song of the week, kind of like
the ear worm. So a couple people have noticed
it at work. You know, it seems to be
providing at least some distraction in a darker time.
So if I can do that for myself, and it's really only for me, but
if other people like it, then I see that's a good thing.
So. Well, you Speaking of that
silver lining of yours, you inspired me to invest some
additional efforts in a little passion project at work also
that is filling my cup. So thank you for that good
energy from this little story this week.
I think it's adorable that you do your affirmation in your song
of the day and I am just going to say it to to the nobodies who
work in your office and don't listen to this podcast, but
y'all are lucky. That's a that's a nice kind of
energy to have at work. Yeah, no, I think it's a good
thing. You know, there are lots of
people who have, you know, disclosed like, hey, you know,
I've got anxiety or you know, you know, it, it, it just, it
helps to boost people up a little bit.
So whatever I can do to make that.
And also very specifically, not for them, but for me.
It's really, you know, a thing I do for me, but.
Works both ways. It's kind of nice and people
need that. And lest we not forget, like, I
don't know, there's something it's so simple, but it's like
just approach everyone as if they may be having a tough day.
And like really the golden rule, like, you know, treat other
people and how you would want to be treated.
And if you would like for people to be kind to you, then you got
to kind of put that energy out there too.
So, you know, it's a little gestures, honestly, that build a
lot of morale in the workplace within our communities.
Like people need to remember that people are human and that
they are kind. And it's the easiest thing for
us to reach for because it's never going to be received
poorly. Sure.
Yeah, I know. I don't think anybody would look
at it and go that's a bad thing. Actually, there's probably a lot
of people who would. Maybe, maybe.
And if they are, then there's it's not for you.
So, but Speaking of things that are not for you, let's let's
take a real quick break. When we come back, we're going
to discuss one of the more impactful uprisings in the gay
rights movement and how the government didn't want to
provide that for them. We are back.
I am so excited to have another history episode.
It's time to discuss, like I said, one of the more impactful
uprisings in the gay rights movement.
So Stonewall as this uprising is known.
Do you know anything about the Stonewall Uprising?
I knew you were going to ask that.
And yes, for the purposes of being educated on like really
monumentous events on the calendar, yes.
But I was, I purposefully did not re Google it just to re
familiarize myself because I thought if you don't know enough
to be able to sit and spout facts, then you better sit and
listen and buckle up for a history lesson.
So I'm just excited that I got invited to the party.
Well, I will. You know, I think it's
important, even if we're talking about history, to talk about the
history that predates that moment, right?
And I think that's so important to be able to do and to kind of
understand because really what Stonewall does is it reignites a
movement that the government had done a really good job of
snuffing out and reducing it to an ember versus, you know, a
fire that was was burning. They, the government very
systematically went about extinguishing it to a point to
where events like Stonewall became necessary.
So I'm going to start our conversation in the earliest
20th century, in 1924, this is in Chicago, a gentleman by the
name of Henry Gerber establishes a society called the Society for
Human Rights. The society is the first gay
rights organization as well as the oldest documented gay rights
organization in the country, Which is really interesting
because I didn't know this until research taking this.
And I feel kind of ignorant, if I'm being honest, because, you
know, I got my degree in history.
I love history. You know, we're, we are
supporters of, of, of the LGBTQ community and yet I didn't
really know much about it. You know, I don't know, like,
you know, I know about, you know, the civil rights movement
and I know about women's empowerment and I know that
like, I stand on the right side of history when it comes to gay
rights, but I just didn't know anything about it.
So this is really interesting that that the first organization
really starts in in Chicago after receiving a charter from
the state of Illinois. The society publishes the first
American publication for homosexuals.
It's called Friendship and Freedom.
And so they published this newsletter.
It gains like national notoriety.
Like a lot of people like, Oh my God, like this, you know, this
disgusting stuff is being. Published this abomination.
Right. This is being, this is being
forced upon us. This is, you know, drag time to
story hour kind of, you know, salaciousness in terms of like
how the the American public was receiving it, how conservative
politicians were expressing their disappointment with gay
people being visible in our country very specifically in the
written word. So no parallel to our current
day, so soon after the founding, after its founding and the
society publishes its first newsletter, the society has to
disband because Gerber is arrested for publishing another
newsletter very shortly thereafter.
So the first organization in the country shuts down because the
police and the federal police come in and say, hey, you can't
have that. We we cannot have you
publishing, you know, gay propaganda.
Gay stuff. Gay things so and this is one of
the parts of the story that is kind of important to recognize
is that Gerber was before he publishes and and establishes
the human rights organization. He was he served in the United
States Army. So he was a he was an enlisted
Army, you know, a soldier and and after the the organization
folds, he decides to re enlist back into the armed forces.
And he was posted in in New York at a place called Governors
Island, which is like near Manhattan area.
So it's like, you know, not in a what you would probably consider
to be a, an eclectic part of the country, right?
Like, there's a lot, it's a lot of people there, lots of melting
pots, you know, like visibility of gay people is probably a lot
higher there than it is and say like, you know, the middle of
nowhere Kentucky. And it's highly populated,
larger mix of people, you know, it's a, it's a portal for, you
know, immigration to into the country Ellis Island, you know,
so that makes sense. Yeah.
And so you have like this like mix of like the times are
changing. You've got the war coming,
you've got, you know, the well, the war, the World War One has
just ended. World War 2 is coming up to
like, you know, it's spinning up, you know, over in Europe,
things are starting to like formulate again for the German
states, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so you've got like this, I don't know, it's, it's kind of,
it feels very similar to how things are going today where
you've got this like we, we want to have like a, a homeo, A
homogenic. What's the word I'm looking for
here where it's like just one, you know, I want America not,
not multiple types of Americans, but just one kind of American,
you know, homogeneous. That's the word I'm looking for.
Homogeneous. Yeah, OK.
Yeah, I think that's the word I'm looking for.
These early politicians, not really politicians, but these
politicians in the 1920s are looking for a very similar
outcome that we have our politicians currently looking
for. So it's a kind of a mirror.
About 100 years apart. Yeah, we're, we're, you know,
we're not, we're not repeating the.
We would never do that. So he he goes back to, he goes
to this governor's island at a place called Fort Jay.
And during his time at Fort Jay, he is harassed and beaten and,
you know, thrown into a room by himself, all because he's gay.
This is according to the National Park Service where they
have a placard outlining like what happened to this man of.
Course they do. Did you know, jumping back into
it that recently the National Park Service was kind of called
to not the National Park Service, sorry.
The government posted signs at national parks encouraging
people to snitch if they see any.
Like, I did not see that. DEI and gay stuff, like
anything, anything. I'm sorry.
It's not just DEI and gay, but it's like anything that paints
America in a bad light. They there's QR codes now where
you can scan it and, like, snitch on.
Yeah. It's it's 1984.
And I hope I'm not paraphrasing but honestly like it doesn't
sound that far fetched. No, but it is a story.
I can go back and do the research and link it to you if
you'd like. But like, it's a thing that
there's QR codes on some of the signage in.
And I'm just thinking because of course, the National Park
Service decided to make sure that we documented this, you
know what I mean? So that sounds like them, you
know, they are known for documenting our country's actual
history, regardless of what light it puts America.
You have to do, you have to tell the story as it is.
So I'm just looking this up. Censorship.
See the National Park visitor responses after Trump requested
help deleting negative signage. The administration asked for
help erasing language on park displays that failed to
emphasize American grandeur, but visitors have not identified any
examples. How about that?
And PS people are our people, yeah.
No, I mean one. 1000%. And the National Park Service is
made-up of, you know, really good human beings.
I feel like if you're willing to not take a really big salary in
order to protect America, the most precious resource resource
that America has. It belongs to all of us.
Then yeah, I, I think you're a pretty good, pretty good
individual. They don't, I mean, they are,
they're not well paid. They, it's, it's a lot like,
like teachers and a lot of public service workers out there
that they're doing some of the most important work that you can
do and they're paid laughable salaries.
I mean, I'd say that the that teachers do a a more important
job than MPs officers. I mean, it's, it's apples and
oranges. It's important all in its own
different ways, like you said, without what happened when they
reduced staffing at parks. Yeah.
Shit's gone fucking. But but, but the first thing
that you'll hear from people are complaints about the long lines
to get in and the reservation process.
Bears are eating all the food because we had to cut staff that
formerly like took care of these problems.
So you know it's. It's it you create the problem
so that you can implement the solution that you've already
predetermined, which is we don't need these things, let's just
make sell them, sell the land off.
The things that we deem things that we don't need are pretty
interesting things. Things like national protected
lands, things like healthcare, things like food benefits to
feed hungry people, things like housing.
Gay rights acknowledgement. Women's rights, reproductive
rights at that. Yeah, it's wild.
Yeah. But so back to our story,
though. For several weeks in the year
1942, Gerber was held in a guardhouse at Castle Williams,
which is where this governor's island, Fort Jay's at, right?
So he's held there for a couple of weeks and there's, quote, no
evidence of illegal behavior found.
And what they're talking about is there is no evidence of gay
sex happening. So how you figure that?
Out how incredibly invasive was my first thought.
I don't know how you go about who.
Went about determining that right, right, right, right.
I don't know. Well, you know, if it's anything
like modern day, a certain political party seems really
invested and highly, highly sickly interested in people's
sex, sexual comings and goings. No pun intended, we.
Went to a rage room and now you're and now you're letting it
all out. You're letting it fly.
I like it. Oh, we didn't mention the rage
room. That's fine in the silver
lining. It's OK.
We have a collective silver lining that we'll announce at
the end of the show. OK, we're going to say it now.
We went to a rage room. That's basically about it it.
Was really hot it. Was a lot of fun.
We busted some things. Yeah, there's a video.
Yeah, there is. We're not going to post it.
No one's ever, no one's ever going to see the video.
It's for a private collection. It's for our private rage
collection. But it should be noted that
Gerber, even through this period of time, he didn't stop writing
for underground queer magazines all throughout the city of New
York. He was also writing for other
sources of literature. He really found a a motivation
to even through being beaten and I'm going to assume exposed to
really humiliating treatment to figure out that there was no
evidence of ill will or whatever it was being.
No evidence of gay sex. Yeah, like illegal behavior
being found. I can't imagine that he wasn't
incredibly, incredibly, I don't want to say embarrassed, but I
can't imagine any other feeling other than being like ashamed of
what happened to you to like go through that, you know, like I
but to so like, I guess my point is like he continued to be an
activist until he died. Like it just motivated him to do
it even more. Well, you know, what's really
interesting is this timeline like this happened right when
like Nazi propaganda was flying through, you know the.
World in the United States as well.
Absolutely, not just in Europe, but in the US, right.
So like, meanwhile, there's also like gay propaganda, gay prop
for short flying through and in the form of like activism, which
I you know, the times and the, and the timeline is not lost on
me just in terms of its parallels to to modern day.
Like we just heard the story that the Supreme Court is
ripping these protections, but. For trans kids.
Yeah, and and I, I, I read that like Maryland specifically lost
in this fight with like religious families claiming like
religious right to. I'm really not articulating very
well, but to be able to remove children from lessons that
include any LGBT or trans themes, which is so gross.
And I just, I have this like picture in my mind of people
with gold stars on, you know, like in.
Or in this case, rainbows. Yeah.
You know, yeah. And like, and then we just start
sorting people into categories like they're like, they're not
humans and they don't actually. We've already started doing that
with black and brown people that don't look like they were born
in this country. And maybe even if they, you
know, this is where I have the choice to not get on the roller
coaster. It's just really hard because
you think about the, the, the impact and, but also the, that
parallel between, you know, 80 years ago and now.
It's pretty wild. Yeah.
And you know, you, you kind of brought it up here a little bit
and then, you know, I kind of want to wrap up this little
story within the larger narrative of what we're going to
be talking about today. With what?
Just saying like, you know, and I mentioned earlier, like I know
about the activists that come from my community, right?
Like I know about Malcolm, I know about King, I know about
parks and and they're, you know, those are so well known.
And I think like, I hope that, you know.
That the history that we've never heard of, like this one
that I had never heard of, right?
You know, that this is the kind of hero in the gay community
that we need to talk about and like in order to have an
inclusive conversation. It's not about DEI.
It's not about, you know, forcing your kids to, you know,
try to turn them gay or whatever.
This is about, you know, what, what people have gone through.
And it's important, right? Like if you had told me or my
parents when they were kids. But we're not going to talk
about Malcolm. We're not going to talk about
King. Like these are people who change
the world for good and for more people to have more civil
rights. But actually, whole generations
of people were taught not to talk about these things, not to
talk about their trauma, not to talk about the hard things that
have happened to them, and really not to process their
emotions. And you can do that all you want
to. You can shut it down.
But it doesn't mean that the feelings and the emotions go
away. It doesn't mean that the
experience changes. Like we're not built that way.
So to shut it down, to stuff it down, to make whole groups of
people feel ashamed for having any feelings at all.
I mean, it's just by putting people into these categories and
saying that their experience didn't happen doesn't matter.
It invalidates human beings. Yeah.
You know, the more and more I reflect on it, the more and more
I think like we were kind of robbed of of learning about a
lot of our history and the things that people have had to
go through in order to just fight to be on the same page,
you know? Imagine if you had learned more
robust lessons about the topic of today's episode.
Stonewall, you know. You went maybe maybe you and I
come from the same exact year. We graduate the same year, but
like when you were in high school and when I was in high
school and middle school, like to call people the F word like
the Efsler was very common. Like you never thought of I I
wasn't, I was never. Maybe he was different for you,
but I know in my school like it was just like.
Lots of things were thrown around and we had far less
awareness as a as a whole culturally, but.
If we had been taught about things like this.
Correct. If we had learned.
I mean, maybe the term microaggressions hadn't been
coined yet when we were in high school, but if we had learned
about microaggressions, for instance, like we could have
been teaching tolerance and anti racism a lot, a lot sooner.
When I think of well, that's work to do, it says who like.
I I I know I'm poking. Poking.
I understand, you know I know and, and just.
But to me, like, what you're blocking is the development of
human empathy and tolerance of one another and the natural
acclimation of human beings to integrate as communities.
But like, as a whole, you know, And that this is like, the idea
is that we're scared of the things we don't understand and
the people that aren't like us. And that's just so archaic.
Yeah, and it tells me at least that it all this stuff was
purposefully left out, you know? Absolutely, because who's always
been dictating the curriculum? Right, you have to be willing to
ignore this kind of stuff. Or just not deem it important.
I mean, I, I'm trying to recall high school history and I didn't
go out of my way to take any classes.
I didn't have to. But I remember 9th grade was
eighth was like government, 9th grade government and you learned
about the United States government.
But like world history, I feel like was in 7th or 8th grade.
And I certainly don't remember 12 and 13 years old.
Do you, you know, like, not in terms of what I learned in
school. I don't even remember college
and grad school at this point. I don't know why you, but you
know, 'cause we're learning on the on the on the daily now
we're learning on the go, but we weren't taught most of this
stuff. Yeah, Yeah, that's right.
How about we take a real quick break?
When we come back, I would like to talk to you about another,
you know, movement shaping moment that happened in the gay
rights movement in the 1950s. We're back.
The next event I want to focus on for this show is report is
the report that came out of the Senate in the 1950s titled
Employment of Homosexuals and Other Sex Perverts in the
Government. Yeah, what a name, right?
Wow. So it is distributed to members
of Congress after the federal government had covertly
investigated employees sexual orientation at the beginning of
the Cold War. The government collects quite a
lot of information from people. Huh.
Like to work for them? Yeah.
Pass. No thanks.
That's intrusive. Incredibly wow.
So the report states that homosexual since homosexuality,
and this is something that I want to come to you about
actually. So in the 1950s, psychologists
and sociologists deemed homosexuality to be a disorder
or an illness, like a mental illness.
And the government goes, oh perfect, we'll use site like a
scientifically backed thing to deem homosexuals as mentally ill
and they they constitute security risks to the nation
because those who engage in overt acts of perversion lack
the emotional stability of, quote, normal persons.
That is 1 fucking sentence if I've ever read 1.
Well, welcome to the 1950s first and foremost.
I mean, we made a lot of progress post Vietnam when Big
Pharma kind of came onto the scene and certain SSR is and
things that we even even today still favor from the
psychopharmacology community. But once, once psychopharm
pharmacology kind of came into the scene as well, we started to
change our language and recognition around mental
illness and things like homosexuality.
That's a pretty antiquated classification because of the,
the, the time frame, you know what I mean?
Now, you know, there are more, much more pronounced
classifications for things. Gender dysmorphia, for instance,
is something that might be kind of in the wheelhouse of, you
know, issues related to gender identity, for instance.
So it's it's, I'm just kind of talking around it.
But we know a whole lot more now, 75 years later than we did
then, you know? I just, I wonder, at least from
my perspective, like as somebody who's not educated in this stuff
at all, like what leads psychologists Like who, who was
in like. Stigma.
White men. Involved in that though, to be
like, Oh no, this is like, I mean, is that what it comes down
to? Yeah, I mean, it's like the
convergence between science and psychology and for a long time,
like. I just feel like we're back to
like measuring people's skulls to determine their like,
intelligence at that. Point well, we've moved from
more of a medical model of classifying people and
qualifying people and not considering the actual human
being. And we've moved to a much more
person centered approach to treating people from a mental
health perspective. So like what started as more
medical model has migrated to like the mental health world
that we know today, which is that we don't stigmatize, we
destigmatize by talking about the prevalence of mental health
issues and the normalcy around seeking treatment for it and the
benefits of therapy. And if it's in your cocktail,
adding medication and psychopharmacology.
Like we normalize these things now, societally speaking, so
that there is less stigma around it.
However, again, like, you know, we're referencing another period
in time where if you could, this is also when women were
hysterical. So just drug them, you know what
I mean? The.
Hysteria of women. I mean, we talked about that.
It's any way to oppress a group. I mean, quite Simply put, this
is oppression of the LGBT community.
Like make it a mental illness, call them crazy, lock them up.
Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll give you a
little bit more on that. So over the previous years of
that 1950s study, more than 4380 gay men and women were
discharged from the military and around 500 were fired from their
jobs in the government. This purging will become known
as the quote Lavender scare. And the Lavender scare is a play
on words from the McCarthyism of the Red Scare of the Communist
Red Scare of the 1950s. So in order to, to, to, to get
the, the, the homosexual male and woman out of, of government
employment, they went around and did exactly that where they went
and looked into people's backgrounds and would follow
them in cars and like determine that their sexuality from afar.
Or sometimes planting devices in their homes to find out.
Or breaking in at night after maybe they were out, you know,
at a club or out to dinner to search their home.
Well, before I said invasive, but Can you imagine how
terrifying it must have been on the on the receiving end?
You know there is. Speaking of hysteria, like these
are the kinds of things that cause paranoia, hysteria, and
psychotic breaks in a person. Like feeling like you're being
followed feeling. Like actors who were part of the
Red Scare of the McCarthy area, but they were also involved in
this lavender scare where they were being shamed and shunned by
Hollywood after act. You know, studios found out, Oh,
we've got a gay man on. Our Oh, absolutely I read AI
actually read a book It's historical fiction sort of I
mean meaning like if they reference periods like the
1950s, they bring up themes that were present in the 1950s and
it's a really, really, really good book.
I will not name drop on this podcast 'cause I could fangirl
on the side on a whole separate episode on someone else's
podcast about books, but it was about Hollywood, like in the
1950s. And the whole central theme of
this book, without giving it away, that's why I won't share
the title, is that the main character's gay and, you know,
has to cycle through marrying men in order to keep that under
wraps. And even in like, old age still
hadn't come from a place where it was normalized to come out,
so to speak. So like in death, like took it
with them kind of thing. So, yeah, it was, it was heavy
subject matter, but like just the sacrifices that were made
and like choices that had to be made.
It was a different time for sure.
It was a time where you can tell like society was afraid of this
and and of this becoming a thing.
Yeah, I was reading one another. I forget her name, but there was
another story that was a part of this, the early phases of the
gay rights movement and also the LGBTQ like like the whole
spectrum. It was a really, really
interesting story about this. He was, he transitioned male to
female. So she had to go to I think it
was the Netherlands or somewhere in Europe to get this
transitional surgery taken care of.
So I was, yeah. So I'm, I'm reading this story
about, about this woman who who's, you know, goes over to to
England or not England, somewhere in Europe.
I, I forget exactly where. Maybe the maybe in the
Netherlands doesn't matter. And while she is going through
the process of, you know, expressing herself the way she
feels comfortable, the American media starts writing like
essentially hit pieces on her. And in order to like, she stayed
in in Europe for a bit was like, but once she started reading
these stories about her, she was like, well, fuck this.
Like, I'm not standing for this. So she calls up a bunch of like
journalists and has her have has them meet her at the airport as
she's getting off. And it's basically like the red
carpet gets rolled out. Like it becomes like a a
celebrity moment more than so she like changed the narrative
and it was just like, you know, taking it back from the people
who were trying to make her feel bad.
And it was like, good for you like that.
It just, it was like a feel good story around this.
But so the government intentionally targeted gay and
gay men and women, trans men and women and anyone who could have
been seen as an ally to those communities.
So they really were going out of their way to fire these people,
get rid of them, purge them from the government.
And our government seems to have always been out for LGBTQ folks
and people who would act as support systems for them when
they were coming out, when they're expressing themselves.
And after the break, we're going to be discussing A pivotal book
movement and also what our current administration is doing
to kind of take us back to when America was quote great.
We're back, Judy. Let's talk about Stonewall for a
moment. And I, I know that this is going
to be a little bit of a refresher for you since you know
about it. Stonewall has been described as
the Rosa Parks moment for the gay rights movement.
And just as Mrs. Park's refusal to give up her seat on the bus
in Alabama to a white man had the effect of animating the
civil rights movement for 14 years before, so Stonewall
electrified the push for gay equality In the 1960s America,
gay and lesbians were effectively outlaws, living in
secrecy and fear. As you can remember, the 1950s,
they were basically forced to They were labeled as insane by
doctors, immoral by religious leaders, unemployable by the
government, predatory by TV broadcasts, and criminal by
police. At the time of the uprising,
consensual sex, sexual relations between men or between women
were illegal in every state with the exception of Illinois.
Yeah, who knew? So gay people could not work for
the federal government or the military, and coming out would
deny you a license in many professions, including
practicing law or medicine, which is.
That's wild. Madness.
That's wild. Like that is in the 1960s, like
your your parents, my parents were alive when being gay you
couldn't work as a doctor. That's only 60 some years ago.
Our. Our parents were alive and it's
it's, it just doesn't make any sense.
Well, of course it doesn't make any sense to us, right?
But back then, to those people, it must have made all the sense
in. The world do oak.
They're do oak, they say. I like your impression.
That was. Bad.
You sounded like Grimace. Do.
Oak. Do oak.
Like a bullfrog. River, You know, I'll just stick
to, you know, I'll stick to my own voice.
I'll leave. The.
I'll leave the impressions to you.
So the laws in New York State were particular, particularly
punitive, despite or perhaps partially in response to a
growing number. Remember I was telling you about
this. In the 1920s, a growing number
of gay men and women moving to New York City from across the
United States. Thousands were arrested each
year in the city for crimes against nature, solicitation or
lewd behavior. Some had their names published
in newspapers, which meant they lost their jobs, so they were
doxxed. Like, this is like the early
version of doxing, right? Even what you were you wore was
policed. Fewer than three pieces of
clothing deemed appropriate to your gender could put you in
handcuffs. What the fuck does that mean?
So, you know, a, we're going to forgive the stereotyping moment
here, right? But like, this is very something
that came up in my research about like leather and like BDSM
type outfits. And if you were caught wearing
them at night, walking through the streets of New York City,
you could be arrested. Assless chaps.
Yeah, Basically, yeah. Yeah.
There is a huge amount of anger in the gay community because gay
people had no political power to prevent this.
It was like a keg of dynamite was waiting to ignite.
Per professor at Yale Law School, young gay men and women
didn't want to write letters to counselors, counselors to enact
change or sign petitions. Instead they took their cue from
the anti war movement, the Black Power movement and those who are
pushing for women's liberation. Their strategy was simple, go to
the streets and make trouble. Attack, Attack, attack.
Wow, that sounds, gosh, so familiar.
Why? What's happening?
Yeah. Why does this feel familiar?
I don't know. I don't know.
But in 1969, actually today, in 1969.
June 28th. About six officers, including
those who led the NYPD's Public Moral Division, went into the
bar that Stonewall. There were undercover colleagues
there, and they were already inside.
So when the lights come up and the music stops, the police
instruct everybody in the bar, get your I DS out.
And as you're giving us your I DS, get the fuck out, right?
So ejected patrons spilled out onto the streets.
And according to eyewitnesses, at first the atmosphere was
festive. People were laughing and joking.
They were coming out of the bar and striking poses and shit.
Like, very. RuPaul's Drag Race on is like
what I'm imagining in my mind, right?
Dramatic exit. Yes, but according to reports,
some of the lesbian customers were being harassed and bullied
by the male police officers inside the bar.
Then the mood outside changed when they heard that these women
were being bullied and they were being handled roughly by the
police. And as one person is one woman's
being put into a squad car, they're handling her pretty
roughly. And people start to throw
pennies and quarters at the police and that soon turns into
bottles and rocks. And when you exert force against
the people who are already exerting force, all of a sudden,
well, you're not allowed to do that to us.
We're the only ones allowed to exert force, so things start to
escalate. The police retreat inside and
they begin beating up the people inside the bar who haven't left
yet as I guess kind of like a retaliation for what's happening
outside. A rubbish bin is thrown through
the window and a lighter flute was a used to ignite projectile
so Molotov cocktails are flying through the air at this point.
Parking meter was literally ripped out of the ground and
used to bash in the front door. It's wild to think about.
I mean, when you and I have been, when was, well one, when
was the last time we used a parking meter?
Because they've got all these smart parking things now.
I feel like one of the things we used in the rage room last night
felt a little bit like swinging a parking meter between the
sledgehammer and that other thing with the you know what the
the guy I'm talking about. It was a truck axle I think.
Whatever it was, it was fun. It was a great.
Time. But like, you know, I mean,
I've, you've, I've ran into a parking meter pretty drunk one
night in my early 20s. And those fuckers do not move
like that is like a one way ticket to, to Hurtsville.
So they RIP a fucking, they RIP one out of the ground and they
start beating down the door. And according to one of the
participants, it was just this emotional adrenaline craze
moment, completely irrational. There was a mob spirit.
God knows I would never have kicked a policeman, he says, if
he was alone. But they were finally fighting
back. And it was exhilarating.
So you know how you been alone by himself, probably he's not
going out and, you know, doing this.
But because the moment like, gin them up to get to that place,
like they're, they're, they're finally fighting back.
And riot police finally arrive to rescue their colleagues.
But the violence went on before it subsided.
At least one police officer was treated in hospital for a head
wound, and 13 demonstrators were arrested.
That battle was over. But some of those present knew
nothing would be the same again the following night, a larger
crowd showed up, helped partly, perhaps by, you know, a message
that was written in chalk on the sidewalk the night before.
And it said Stonewall. And so that be kind of, kind of
became a rallying cry for those who were in the neighborhood.
I believe it's in Greenwich Village if I think that's where
it's at. But it was more violent the next
night. It was much more violent and the
police took a much more muscular approach using tear gas.
And you know, again, the night before they were lighting trash
cans on fire. They were doing the exact same
thing the following night. The protesters or, or the
rioters. But the, this uprising wasn't
just a one or night two night thing.
It continued for another 4 nights.
So it's not like it was just a one day, one night like kind of
situation. This was four nights of rioting
and I never heard about it in my history classes.
It's. Like a like a music festival
that just kept going. Except it wasn't a music
festival at all. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, getting back to our earlier conversation
about like, what you didn't learn in high school, like this
is like, this is a this is something that you would see
being played out in the in in city streets of America today
for violating our civil rights. And you're living it.
You're going oh, my God. Yeah.
Like, you know, fight the power. But like I I can only imagine if
I'd known about this as a kid, like how much more understanding
what I have been to to the gay calls and into the gay civil
rights movement as a child. Well, we'll find out because if
you recall, just about two weeks ago we had a national day of no
King's protests and roughly somewhere between 9 and 13
million, all of which I've heard quoted.
People turned out across the country in various
demonstrations to protest our civil rights.
So I guess we'll see what happens in the curriculum in
about. Yeah, yeah, in.
About 40, forty, 5060 years from now.
Well, hopefully we're still around.
I'd be interested to see what happens in 10.
Yeah, I mean, even in five. Yeah, but the question on many
minds of those who were there that night were what comes next,
right. Like what I think one of the
things that you were just talking about with the new kings
thing is like, all right, yeah, we we were able to mobilize as
as a country, but what what happens next?
Like we took some action, but like what's the on the ground
thing that's going to happen to actually force the chain?
What's the forcing mechanism here, right?
And a lot of people who were at Stonewall the night had the
exact same question. And you know, I want to kind of,
I'm going to skip over a lot here because I, we, I want to
bring us forward to today because I think today's
discussion reflects this moment quite a bit.
But in the time between Stonewall and today, the
community has seen protections put in place, frankly, right?
Like there has been progress made there right for the LGBT
community. Not an exceptional amount, but
like steps. Well, I mean, just two days ago
we hit the anniversary of 10 years since Barack Obama had it
signed, you know, into and the. Supreme Court backed it up and
on the. Court backed marriage equality
across the country, and we're currently, just a decade later,
seeing those protections dismantling under threat.
Yeah. And you know, there are people
who would say, well, hey, look, not enough was done between
Stonewall and today. And I don't think that they're
wrong. But you know those gains are
under threat, as you mentioned even.
Just the normalization of Pride Month and the and the
demonstrations of of Pride celebrations across the country
is is an enormous leap compared to where we were 60 some years
ago. Oh, for sure, for sure.
And I think that visibility matters.
And I think that that is something that you see in media
especially, right like. And so I think that there are,
there had been just like there had been, right?
There's been positive movement on the black civil rights
movement and where we are from the 1960s to today.
Like it's very different world for Black folks in the country,
but in so many ways it's also not.
And I feel like that's also the way for the women's rights
movement. I feel like that's the way it is
for the LGBTQ community. Like there have been steps and
for every one step there's the two steps back kind of
situation. Turns out woke is synonymous
with progress, and it is one of the greater threats to our
society because there's just so many people still disappointedly
so, that are afraid of of things that they don't understand or
that they can't relate to, which is madding to know that like it,
we're 60, nearly 60 years removed from this, but we are
almost in a in a worse place now.
Well, yeah, because of the Supreme Court this month alone
ruled that Tennessee ban on gender affirming care for minors
is constitutional. And you know, which is surely
going to be seen as the president as, you know,
precedent rather for making more, you know, for ruling in
the favor of, you know, more conservative views on sexuality
all across our country, but especially coming out the red
parts of it. You know, hate crimes are still
being carried out against the gay community.
And I'm thinking back to the Pulse nightclub shooting, where
a murderer shot and killed 38 people and injured 58 others,
which amounts to being one of the deadliest mass shootings in
American history. Was that in Colorado?
That was the one in. Orlando.
Sorry.
Well, the Colorado Springs shooting was another.
Yeah, that was at a gay club as well.
Yeah, and it's. Like in a very like small town,
relatively speaking. Like we visited there about 6
years ago and I think that that happened after our visit.
It's a very conservative town too, because of the military
presence. It's there.
Yeah. You know, it.
It really does disappoint you to think about it in the in that
way of yes, there have been gains made in the community for
equality, or at least on paper, but they still live under threat
on a daily basis for just being who they are.
It's wild to think about the impact on the healthcare
community because you would think that that would be one of
the most protected spaces to keep things like this safe for
people. Like people need a place to come
to not only impact the issues that are related to being a part
of this marginalized group, but also work through their identity
stuff, you know, and also receive just and fair healthcare
and treatment and gender affirming care and all of the
things that are just basic human rights and protections.
And that's, I think the hardest thing to wrap my brain around
has been the impact on the healthcare community and how
that could continue to dismantle as well, which is a really
terrifying thought. Incredibly terrifying.
And that brings us to today. The Trump administration is
doing a bang up job of not protecting A statistically
higher risk group of people for suicide, young LGBT kids.
Next month, the Trump administration will end
specialized support for the 988 National Suicide Prevention
Hotline for young queer children, a group that has
disproportionately higher rates of suicide than any other group
with the exception of Native Americans in our country.
The administration said the hotline will no longer silo LGB.
They purposely left out the T&Q in their statement focusing on
serving all seek helper seeking to help all callers versus just
LGBTQ kids. So what I want to support and
supplement by saying is that I've spent a lot of time
researching the efforts of 988 and the impact that it's had
since the hotline went live in 2022.
We're coming up on three years and each year they do a survey
of how they have been doing, what their impact has been, how
people are utilizing the service, how often people are
calling in. And there was a surplus of calls
that flooded that use LGBTQIA plus portion of of the helpline.
The reality is, is that what probably happened is that call
centers were cut and staffing were cut just like everywhere
else where we've seen cuts. Because what the Biden Harris
administration did was pour a fuck ton of money.
I don't know the exact figure off the top of my head, but
something to the tune of like $2.5 billion into the 988 call
centers and the funding for that, which made it more robust
and and more readily available for not just suicidal ideation,
but other mental health crises. And just you need to talk to
somebody 24/7. You can dial 911 for your mental
health 988. The numbers are next next to
each other on the phone and you can reach somebody who's
available to talk to you right now.
Right. And that's interesting that you
bring that up because the PBS report that I was reading about
it actually backs up that. And I'm going to give you a
little bit more numbers to it, but is exactly what you were
saying here, here, quote, since the line launched, including in
that pilot phase, there have been over 1.3 million contacts
to the service. And that includes phone calls,
chats and texts. There are two reasons the
administration is saying that the line is being cut.
The 1st is that 988 overall can, quote, handle the calls that
LGBTQ service would have received.
And the second is that the administration is saying that
the service is fostering gender ideology beliefs young among
young people and trying to convince young people of gender
ideologies. There it is.
And that is patently not what's happening here.
When somebody calls that line, they're calling the line because
they're in crisis and the line is helping to resolve that
moment for that individual. I guarantee that any of the
individuals that are making the decisions to make these cuts
have never in their life and will never in their life have
the experience of talking to someone who's on the brink of
taking their lives. And until you have that
experience, until you are trained in what to say and what
to do and the importance of what you say and do that is so
critical that it can literally save a life, then you can fuck
right off because you don't know what you're talking about.
And these marginalized groups cannot afford to lose any
further benefits, services or care than what they are
currently receiving. Yeah, no, I agree with you 100%
because again, it is one of the highest risk groups in our
country. On multiple levels, like if you
want to further like slice and dice the communities, I'm sure
within the communities that you're going to find even more
at risk age groups, you know, particular like classifications,
you know, like it's so specific, but I just, I can't not mention
the vulnerability of the trans community and the and the safety
threats currently like posed to that specific community.
But when you think about trans youth, you are literally talking
about the most vulnerable people out there.
And I've got 2 clips of of Trump and I would like to transport
you back to 2016 when Trump was only less slightly fat.
Decline. I don't wish to.
You have a Twitter question? Yeah, we're getting thousands of
questions on Twitter, Mr. Trump. I picked 1 here.
This is from Jessica Hershey, Toms River, NJ I'll just read it
as a quote on a hot button issue here.
Mr. Trump, please be specific. Tell us your views on LGBT, how
you plan to be inclusive as president.
Speak about North Carolina bathroom law in particular.
Oh, I had a feeling that question was going to come up.
I will tell you. Well, look, North Carolina did
something was very strong, and they're paying a big price and
there's a lot of problems. And I heard one of the best
answers I heard was from a commentator yesterday saying
leave it the way it is right now.
There have been not very few problems.
Leave it the way it is. North Carolina, they're going
through with all of the business that's leaving and all of the
strife and, and that's on both sides.
You leave it the way it is. There have been very few
complaints the way it is. People go, they use the bathroom
that they feel is appropriate. There has been so little
trouble. And the problem with what
happened in North Carolina is the strife and the the economic,
I mean the economic punishment that they're taking.
So I. Would say that's proper people
working in your organization. I don't know.
I really don't know. I probably do.
I really don't. So.
So if Caitlyn Jenner were to walk into Trump Tower and want
to use the bathroom, you would be fine with her using any
bathroom she chooses. That is correct.
So that is a pretty interesting reply from The Donald, as they
call him. Damn tits.
And I really enjoy that, that you're calling him that.
And so I want to read a clip, not a clip.
I want to read an article, piece of an article from the AP.
And it it says this. Inside the White House, there's
little second guessing about what the president's stances
are. Trump AIDS have pointed out
their decision to seize on culture war surrounding
transgender rights during the 2024 campaign as a key to their
win. They poured money into ads aimed
at young men, especially young Hispanic men, attacking
Democratic nominee Kamala Harris for supporting taxpayer funded
sex changes for prisoners, including one spot that aired on
the during football games. He said in the ad.
Kamala is for they them. President Trump is for you.
After the 2016 video that we just watched of him saying that
he would have no problem with transgender people using their
bathrooms, it's either he's had one fucking ridiculous 180 or he
was lying the entire time. Well, he lies about everything,
so that's really not super hard to believe.
But we know we know one thing about him, right?
It's the base of a lot of arguments around who is more
dangerous. And what we know about him is
that he's like, he's like a, like a cattail blowing in the
wind, Like he's, he's spineless. He goes where the money is.
He goes where the support is. He goes where the cause is.
That's going to be the most extreme.
That's going to cause the most chaos.
So of course he's going to sway his views on abortion, on
transgender bathrooms and which ones they can use and can't use.
He's going to hop on the train of like, you know, thank God we
got all those trans kids out of out of sports that they don't
belong in, you know, but you know, is he's really quiet on
like some other real big issues that actually the American
people care about. Yeah, I agree with that.
And, you know, earlier this year when he, after he was
inaugurated, he, I don't know if you're like the remember the
flurry of executive orders that he was putting out about, you
know, especially transgender youth especially.
It happened on like day one. Transgender soldiers, if you
recall. Oh yeah.
When listening to this clip, just think back to the 1920s and
the 1950s when they were purging the government of transgender
people. It'll be historic.
Hey, Peter, going back to when you were talking about how
Donald Trump revoked the Biden policy allowing trans people to
serve in the armed forces, the number of trans people in the
Armed Services right now, I know there was an NIH study or
estimate done like five years ago at 8000.
Who knows how many there are, there are today.
What are what's going to happen to those people?
It sounds like once Pete Hegseth comes up with the new policy,
they are going to be discharged. And it's not essentially what
the argument is in the fact sheet that we were given about
that executive order. President Trump does not think
the transgender people are physically or mentally stable
enough to serve in the armed forces.
And they specifically cite readiness with transition
surgeries. If you have a transition
surgery, the recovery time and the narcotics that you have to
be on as part of the process could affect your readiness for
up to 12 months. They.
I would like to go back to the 1950s when we were.
Just I would not actually. Discussing this decline just a
little bit ago, when the argument was mentally stable,
they're they're not. It was classified as a mental
illness. Right.
But I guess what I mean to say is like.
And sexual predator predatory behavior.
Sex perverts in the government. Right.
So again, back to the 1950s article, the article about the
report that came out from the Senate about the employment of
homosexuals and other sex perverts in the government.
And they are not able to, they, they don't, they lack the
emotional stability of normal persons.
And I wanted to return back to that because again, they
discharged from the military five, 44,380 men and women, gay
men and women. And we are doing a great job of
going back to those, those moments in our, in our, in our
history that your parents and my parents were around for.
And we're saying, you know what, that feels like a lot better of
a time when people are being, you know, when we were shrinking
the size of our military to make it less effective, that there's
not been any study that's ever come out that I, that I know of
at least that is reputable. That would indicate that trans
people being in the military has a negative effect on morale and
the effectiveness of the killing force.
I just, if we're just thinking about this like through like
just the, like the pure logistics of it, it makes no
sense. If we're thinking about it like
through the human part of it, it's fucking brutal.
It's brutal to do that to people who want to serve their nation.
They're they're not there to make a political stance.
They're there to do the thing that they feel called to do,
which is to protect the land that we all live in.
You know, that's supposed to be the land of the free and home of
the brave. Except if you're the wrong sex,
the wrong you know. A part of the rainbow that they
don't like it's. The biggest scamming cult out
there. It's horrible, It's horrible.
They promise you the world if you just sign this piece of
paper and give your life over in service and you're the ultimate
servant. And when they can slice and dice
among the servants, you know, like.
It's giving 1950s for me. That's all I can say.
Yeah. So there's been a clear shift in
Trump's position in his stance, or at least to what he
verbalized in 2016. And the likes of Musk, Vance and
other anti-gay and anti trans personnel in his cabinet have
helped to pull him and the Republican policies even further
to the right. And those attitudes are
reflected in recent polling data from Gallup.
Actually, I looked this up Monday of this week.
So this is very, very recent Republican support for gay
marriage has coincided with Trump's seeming reversal on his
support for LGBTQ folks, with only 41% of of Republicans in
America in support of gay marriage.
And again, what is it you said? This is the 10 year anniversary.
And while 88% of Democrats and 68% of overall adults support
gay marriage in the country, that data set, while incomplete,
shed some light on what's happening in our country.
The GOP is devolving. It's falling behind the rest of
America when it comes to gay and lesbian marriages.
And I think that that is more of an indication of where we are in
this country on just about every single issue.
If we were to look at Stonewall, you know, Mr. Gerber, that we
talked about the 1950s and 1960s purges of, of gay and homosexual
people from our military, from civil services, the way that
they have categorized historically categorized gay and
lesbian people as being mentally ill and have done their very
best to ostracize them from our society.
We're the Republican Party, it seems at least, is doing its
very best to take us back to that period of time.
And I it really frustrates me. The hard part is like, it's like
a which hard period of time because there have been several
and the most recently you know being like around 1969.
And after that, we found a little bit of reprieve and a
little bit of, you know, the sexual freedom era of, you know,
what followed, I guess that, you know, began in the 60s, but, you
know. The free love movement or
whatever it was, Yeah, sure. Well, then we had the the
emergence of, you know, the AIDS epidemic in the 80s and that was
also a really tough time for this community.
So it's just, it's cyclical, but it is also very much consistent
theme is people in charge and the people making policies.
Because when you strip protections like the impact that
stripping, you know, like funding from Planned Parenthood
will have on the greater good. This is like the common
misconception is that Planned Parenthood is just funding
abortions, but the reality is, is that it's providing life
saving care screenings, you know, like routine annual
checkups to people who otherwise would not be able to afford
those appointments and, and that care.
And, you know, without that funding like that, that has
significant impact on women in general.
And so it it don't think that it's just going towards, you
know, funding abortions. But Speaking of this pro-life
party, you know, like let lest we mention all of the different
groups of people that are dying right now, you know, like pick
your struggle because there are so many and.
If you're pro-life then you need to be pro-life, not just
pro-life. That you, I think is the right
life to be pro. For the right life and and it as
it relates to today and this the historical significance of
today, you know, to defund the LGBTQ portion of the 988 crisis
lifeline is is abhorrent. You know, it's it's a piss poor
choice to strip funding away from a desperately needed
service because that's not very pro-life of you and that's shame
on you. Shame on this party.
That and for anyone out there who is just living life as
though this doesn't impact them, like your day is coming is is
all. You know, I don't, I don't mean
to sound all doom and gloom, and I'm gonna, I don't.
Think it's a threat as much as it is like a, like I was
listening to a, a, a podcast or the political commentary earlier
and they were just saying like, if you don't think that due
process, if you think that due process for one person doesn't
matter, then it eventually doesn't matter for anybody.
And if you don't, if they don't have rights, then you don't
either, because eventually it is you.
We're watching it happen group to group and and day by day like
we lose, we lose a little more each day.
And that's that's if you're not paying attention, then you're
missing it. And that's unfortunate, but open
your eyes. It's happening.
I'll give the final thoughts and we'll wrap up the show here.
My final thoughts are this. This is the kind of history that
Republicans want to get rid of. It really is.
They want to get rid of the history that shows you just how
brutal our government can be to people it does not think are
valuable. They consider it to be woke to
know the history of abuse of human beings that they don't
like. And we on this show stand firmly
with the community, the LGBTQ community, our brothers and
sisters, especially during private all year round.
Really, right. The struggle for equality will
continue. And it's it the what did Doctor
King say that the the arc towards justice is long, but
eventually it gets there. I'm going to link.
I'm going to provide a link to the Trevor Project in case you
or anyone that you know is in crisis with 988 being stripped
of its funding and it's, you know, the, the avenues for
people to, to connect. We need to find different
spaces. The Trevor Project is 100%
confidential and 100% free. So go to
thetrevorproject.org/gethelp if you know anybody who might or if
yourself might be able to use it.
Judy, do you have any final thoughts?
Well, I want to piggyback and just continue to encourage
people to use 988 regardless of who answers the phone and what
part of the lifeline you get. Because if we are told that, you
know, we're removing less specific protections and you
know, funnels through this lifeline, then there better
still be people who answer the phone.
So in, in my opinion, unless they're shutting the whole
hotline down, which they are not, then we continue to call
and use it. Same with your local libraries.
Same with any important government funded or government
backed service that that we desperately, desperately need.
Public television, public radio, independent news sources.
Again, local libraries cannot stress enough, it's summer.
Summer reading. Go get your personal pan pizza.
Read your books. I've read some excellent books
this summer and I am on a I'm on a hot streak.
Was it the Scholastic book? Whatever it was, was the.
School. That's a book fair.
That's a book fair, Greg. Oh.
Man, I used to get so many good calendars and things.
Don't interrupt anyway. Sorry, don't interrupt.
My bad. Didn't you do the the book it
like I don't know? All right, well, all right, if
you don't know what I'm talking about in terms of personal pan
pizzas and book reading, educate yourself, but.
Listeners, we want to thank you for enjoying another episode
about the extremes. Do subscribe and share, it goes
a long way. Reach out to us on Blue Sky at
the Trees Pod, Check the show notes, Happy pride and until
next week. Educate yourself.