This is At the Extremes, Beloveds.
Welcome back to At the Extremes, the podcast where we discussed
the extremes in our society and how we got here.
As always, we are your hosts. I'm Greg.
And I'm Serge. And today, we are going to take
a break from the hellscape that we're all living in right now to
discuss a weird slice of American life.
Not, not the NPR version, but our version.
We're talking about Moorish sovereign citizens today.
But before we get into all of that, Sergio, why don't you hit
me with the silver lining? Well the silver lining is that
you didn't tell me as a Co host on the podcast just because I
was fumbling around and and so stupid on technology that I
couldn't figure out like my audio.
So thank you for staying up late.
I know you you normally is with your regular day-to-day jobs
that don't have summers off, have responsibilities tomorrow
and us that don't and just fuck off.
I'm off Friday if that makes you feel any better.
So. And you know what it does?
Because anytime anybody can just rest their weary bones or have
that mental health break or have a three day weekend, I'm a big
supporter of that. Well, I'm about to get, I'm
about to have to dump out a bunch of a bunch of money out of
my pocket to get some trees trimmed back.
So it's not for fun. It is for it is to spend a bunch
of money and and watch it go away as they carry the trees
away. So.
As you kill nature. Yeah, well, it's because my
fucking neighbors, but that's another actually, you know what
that kind of fits in with the sovereign citizen thing.
You know what? Fuck them.
I'm a sovereign. But so I'll give my my silver
lining real quick if that's cool.
So I I've been playing FIFA recently on on repeat and I'm in
manager mode right now and Arsenal are cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo
cuckoo cooking. OK we are flam bang teams out
here bro It's I I bought gokurez, I bought Cesco
Zubamendi. There are so many other little
gems that I found in the game that we're we're just cooking,
man. We're cooking right now.
The boys are clicking. Especially in Europe.
We've won three back-to-back Champions Leagues.
So it feels really good right now.
But anyway, all right. Well, hey, look, now that we've
got the the Silver Linings out of the way, why don't we take a
real quick break when we return? Sergey, you're going to talk
Douche Cano. We have returned Sergio Amy with
the douche canoe. We're back again, folks, and
it's another installment of Douche Canoe time.
And I, I have a little bit of an ADHD brain, so I'll, I'll get
like two or three ideas at once, then I'll forget what I'm doing
and just go look and try to fix an electrical outlet and be
terrible at. That No, no, not you.
Not you. Not you.
No, no, no. But you know, with the thoughts
entering my my head in and out super fast, some might say
faster than Donald Trump comes. Oh, I'm going to come.
So today we'll discuss an obscure douche canoe, one who
goes by the name of Matthew Whitaker.
And the reason why I chose Matthew Whitaker is just because
I think he embodies this administration and Donald Trump
and the people that he has in his cabinet just perfectly.
OK, let's have it then. So, so Greg, do you know who
Matthew Whitaker is? The only reason why I'm saying
this is exciting. Just looking at the next
sentence in our script and it just says the ambassador to
NATO. I have no idea who this guy is
otherwise. So he during Trump one point O
was the briefly attorney general filling in for Jeff Sessions.
He was Jeff Sessions chief of staff and then he currently is
now the ambassador to the NATO. And so, you know, you might not
think too much like some people know who the age.
I mean, I think the AG is a pretty big position where people
know who, you know, who is standing in that or sitting in
that position. Especially today when Pam Bondi
is like up there giving all kinds of ridiculous speeches
about fucking God damn Jeffrey Epstein.
Absolutely or not saying anything now, right?
I know, man. I'm dude.
What did I tell you last week? What did I tell you last week?
This, this is going to be a thing.
It, you know, it is and hopefully it, it will really
divide his base because there's a lot of people on the, on the
right that are, are really, really upset about.
It including Mike Johnson, the speaker of the House, like he
came out today and was like, Oh yeah, like we need to have
complete transparency around these, the Epstein files.
But anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to cut across.
You have only Epstein. No, but I mean, I, I, I think
you're right. Like it goes back to the point
that it's previously, you know, you, you couldn't think of who
the attorney generals were until by the last like.
Who was Obama's? Agent Was it Merrick Garland or
was that Biden? Yeah, who was who was Obama?
'S well, and then you had Jeff Sessions, then you had who is
the guy? I can picture his face right
now, but was a big constitutionalist and was a big
supporter of the presidential power.
William Barr? Yeah.
Bill Barr? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And now we have Pamela Joe. So I mean, that's for but that's
that's pretty crazy. But anyway, so this guy sucks.
Just I mean, that's why he's been nominated as Deutsche
Canoe. But let me just take you, give
you a little just brief background of, of who he is and
why it just, he stands out to me as just being the quintessential
like Trump cabinet member. So he first started off he, he's
from Iowa. He was, I think he played
collegiate football for the University of Iowa.
And then he was also that his JD.
So he's a lawyer and stuff like that.
So he where he really got his start was he was working for a
company, the World Patent Marketing Agency, and he was on
their board. And they were sued for $26
million by the, I think the Federal Trade Commission.
And I have a clip queued up to give you a little bit of a
background. And President Trump's new acting
attorney general, Matt Whitaker, has been a vocal critic of the
Mueller investigation. But he also was associated with
a company fined nearly $26 million for scamming customers.
Would you like to receive royalties from a major
corporation? It was called World Patent
Marketing, and Whitaker appeared in several of its videos.
In this one, he. It passes a razor blade it
easily folds into itself. He appeared in this video
touting a hot tub innovation. It's a unique design that's
going to help lots of people. The company promised inventors
lucrative patent agreements, but the government accused it of
bilking thousands of customers, and a judge ordered it shut
down. Whitaker was.
OK, All right, I'm, I'm in. I'm so in.
And you know what we are going to do a little bit deeper dive
into some of the products that he was a, a, a board member of
for this company. Oh, so there was more bad
products for it than Gregy there there.
There there is more. Oh God, I can't wait then.
Throw out just some random guesses of of what you you think
that this company, the World Patent Company?
Based on the, based on the video clip that we just watched, I'd
assume like it's like a shoehorn or like, I don't know, like Chex
mixed without like the brown like chips in it.
I don't, I, I, I don't know what what bad product this guy is
trying to bring to market. Oh dog, it it it gets.
That's fucking terrible. Guess because in 2014 the world
at marketing group announced the launch of a masculine toilet.
So let me continue and this is from Jezebel.
The website Jezebel A masculine toilet which is boasted and
specifically designed bowl to help well endowed men to avoid
unwanted contact with the porcelain or water.
The average male genitalia is between 5 to 6 inches, the firm
press release said. However, this invention is
designed for those for those of us who measure longer than that.
Are you kidding me? He So this is an actual toilet.
He created a Dick toilet. His company touted a product IEA
Dick toilet or well endowed men so that their genitalia didn't.
Or either men with huge penises or like really old men that just
have huge clackers that just get into the toilet bowl.
Big, heavy clackers. Big clackers.
And again, that just like that just screams to me like, damn,
that's a that's a Donald Trump kind of dude right there.
Toilets we all need we all need them.
We need Dick toilets. They've got to be gold, folks.
They've got to be gold, they say.
They say. Lots of gold toilets.
They've got cutouts for your gigantic Dick, they say.
They It's a big old Dick. It's the biggest Dick.
I've got big hands too, they say.
Big hands, small hands, big Dick, they say.
Not like little Marco. Rubio Little Marco's got a tiny
little cock. They say cock in Spanish.
Cock is their preferred language.
So just some other things that his company and that's just
that's not one of them. There's there's a whole lot of
other ones, but these are the ones that kind of stood out.
Another one included a theoretical time travel machine
that tied directly to the price of Bitcoin called Time travel X.
The the last thing that that I thought was just hilarious is
that they had Sasquatch dolls where they said that these dolls
were injected with DNA from Bigfoot from a 2013 video.
You know what for shark tanking, this of all of the ideas that
he's got, this is the the, the time Sheen 1 is the one I can
get behind, right? You know, I I disagree.
I think that there is such a toxic portion of men in in this
country that if you anything with a big Dick on them.
Sure, I I don't disagree with I don't disagree with that
premise, but I guess I'm saying if I'm the shark in the Shark
Tank, that's the that is the investment that I'm making is
into this time machine so I can go back to 1960, whatever and
make sure this guy isn't born just.
There you go. Actually, I didn't even think
you're thinking way, way more meta than I am.
I was going to go into a whole bunch of stuff about him, you
know, when he was the acting AG, but he was screamed about the
Mueller investigation, all that stuff.
And that's all stuff that we really heard.
But currently, the reason why he's in the news right now is
that he is the ambassador to NATO.
And currently he has been making threats to one Vladimir Ilyich
Putin. I don't think that's his middle
name, but I just want to throw it in there.
Let's bring in now the United States ambassador to NATO, Matt
Whitaker. Thank you very much, Matt, for
being here. This was in the Oval Office.
You were there on this weapons deal to Ukraine.
More details. Listen, we've made a deal today
where we are going to be sending them weapons that they're going
to be paying for them. We, the United States, will not
be having any payment made. We're not buying it, but we will
manufacture it and they're going to be paying for it.
So what do you want people to know about this deal?
Well, I think it's very important to know, first of all,
you know, kind of the days of the United States sending
unlimited taxpayer dollars to defend Ukraine are over.
President Trump has made a very smart decision and an agreement
with NATO which says you, your Canada will pay for the weapons.
the United States will manufacture them.
Obviously, we make the best weapons systems in the world and
everyone wants them. And we're going to prioritize
those going to Ukraine. And what this says also to
Vladimir Putin, I think it's very loud and clear, which is,
you know, we've given you a chance for peace.
President Trump is a peacemaker. But if you want war, we will arm
Ukraine and Europe will pay for it.
It's it. Wow.
That is, if I've ever heard of a declaration of maybe wanting to
get involved in another war. So kind of my final thoughts of
this and this guy isn't he, he sucks.
He is part of this company that, you know, do people out of 26
out of 1,000,000 and millions of dollars with these shitty
products. But I think it just speaks to
kind of a higher level of the type of people that Donald Trump
has in his cabinet. And we and we can just go down
the list. So you have this guy who is, you
know, is, is part of this fucked up organization that it was
stealing money from people and was fined $26 million.
And now he's threatening the one of the world powers on Fox News.
And then it just it, it makes you just start thinking of the
people that he has within his cabinet.
And Matt Whitaker is just one of the many douche canoes, a lot of
them who have been featured on this show.
But you just think about My Pillow Guy who was a huge
advocate. We have an anti vaxxer who is
the secretary of the Health and Human Services.
We have Amette Oz who is, I don't remember what secretary he
is. We have Pete Eggseth who is a
weekend host, a drunk who is way beyond his capabilities and
abilities leading one of the biggest and if not the biggest
army in in the world. And then we have you know,
people like Matt Gaetz who is going to be the AG and who
almost made it through but was bragging to his his Co workers
about snorting Viagra and like having orgies with teenagers.
Yeah, I was going to bring that up.
Like I I while you were talking, I was like, I there's got to be
somebody. Oh, shit.
Matt Gaetz was almost the fucking AG.
And when you think it, Oh my God, dude.
Like he really has done a terrible job of putting good
people in his cabinet. You're absolutely right.
It's they're all douche bags. Well, and I mean, you've got
people like Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, like these guys are not
qualified to do. They're his boys and their their
actions are going to create serious consequences for.
And they already have. Yeah.
With that, with that being said, Matt, Matt Whitaker, welcome to
the club. You're a fucking douche.
Fuck Matt Whitaker and honestly, I I while you were talking I was
looking into big Dick toilets and I couldn't find anything.
So maybe I'm, I'm hopeful that they took them off the Internet
all together, but someone's got to have it on eBay, right?
I mean, I'm sure I don't even know if they've had had concepts
of a of a big Dick toilet. So now that we've gotten that
out of the way, let's let's take a quick break.
Let's flush this douche canoe down a big Dick toilet.
And when we come back, we're going to talk about sovereign
citizens and eventually touch on the Moors or black sovereign
citizens. Sergio, let me ask you a
question, bud. Do you know who Nick Offerman
is? Yes.
OK, so you're familiar with Parks and Rec?
I don't need to play you any clips then.
I have never watched Parks and Rec.
What? Yeah, dog like so this is the
thing with me is that when one show is already kind of been
done in in a certain style, I don't I don't need to see the
other ones like the office and you know, I'm kind of a purist.
The American version is is good, but I'm I'm an original office
fan. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just it's it's best. Oh, Ricky Gervais is The Office
is a classic, but you're telling me that you've never seen Parks
and Rec? No.
All right, let me let me play you a real quick clip then of of
Nick Offerman playing his his infamous character Ron Swanson.
Ron, you've been sweating in here all day.
Are you drinking any fluids? Yes, plenty.
Is that a bottle of bourbon? Drink water.
Usually I take it neat, but I will make an exception in the
name of health. So Ron Swanson in Parks and Rec
is like he he's very much a libertarian who doesn't believe
that government works, but yet he works for the government he
like. He's this gigantic walking
contradiction. It's a great character in a
fantastic TV show. I highly recommend that you
watch it. OK, I'll add on to the list of
things that I'll never watch. That's fair.
I I bring up Nick Offerman because he is starring in a
newly released movie called Sovereign.
Violence doesn't solve anything, OK?
It's not violence that we're after.
Even the Bible tells us if you're going to go and wage war
against somebody, you have to kill their sheep and their goats
and their chickens and their babies and their wives, OK?
You have to kill them all. Right, because what we're after
here is not fight, it's conquering.
I mean, I don't want to have to kill anybody, but if they keep
messing with me, then I'm afraid that's what it's going to come
down to as I'm going to have to kill.
And if I have to kill 1 and I'm not going to be able to stop, I
just know it. I mean, I have an addictive
personality. I haven't had a drink for 18
years because I can't handle this shit.
You might want to clarify that just a little bit.
What's the matter of what the law says about killing?
The law from the Bible tells us that if you're going to do it,
you have to do it right. But I don't choose to do it
right, Jesus Christ. I don't want to do it at all.
Jesus. Christ is right.
I mean goodness, but I also wasn't the first commandment
like that was going to kill. Yeah, I know.
That is the first commandment in 100%.
Your nun would be very proud of you, Sir.
So I. Thank you, sister Hack.
Shout out sister hack. So I saw that clip as like the
trailer or the teaser and I was like, oh, I'm not not watching
this movie. Like there's just no way.
This speaks to everything that I'm interested in, not just from
like it is just like, OK, I'm 100% in.
What is your crazy ass talking about?
Yeah, and and just straight deadpan.
Yeah, yeah. And what the people couldn't see
in a it's obviously this the podcast, but the, the crowd
looked very, the congregation looked very uncomfortable with
with his message. Yeah, and and so I was looking
into their story and, and again, I don't want to ruin it because
it is, you know, a movie that just came out.
But the the, the movie tells the entire story.
So we're not going to tell what happens with with those two
folks, but they are they the movie plays out really, really
well. Highly recommend anyone watching
it paying or not paying, whatever you want to do.
Some high jinks and hilarity ensues.
Yeah, yeah, they they. So it's like the whole the whole
rest of the movie is just yakety sex.
It's, it's pretty good. But we've we've, we've talked
about sovereigns before. I I don't know that we've talked
about them on the podcast, but I mean, that is unless you count
Cody Crone, of course. I feel like he's kind of like
sovereign curious. Like, yeah, I, I feel like
personally at least like the diet, the Venn diagram of like
shitty human beings. There's a large crossover
between sovereign citizens and libertarians, but.
And I, I think back to Cody, I think he he's also really
interested in making lots of money.
I don't think he's wanting to get in a shootout with any
police officers or anything like that.
Agreed, Agreed. I think that's probably where
most libertarians like, yeah, the SOF citizenship, it's not my
thing, but I kind of like operating underneath of an
economic system where a sovereign.
Citizens, I don't want to pay taxes, but I want to smoke weed
and make a lots of money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And have all the guns I can possibly have.
I I am actually very proud to say that on my YouTube
algorithm, Cody Crone popped up. Come on, we finally did it.
We broke. We broke your algorithm.
He, he, he made us what? He, he slithered his way
through. You know what?
It just seems like it, it seems like you're molding me to be
like you and then so I'm just going to be like this really
competitive, rageful person that goes down these like, oh, it's
on the Internet. Yep, Yep, you're eventually
you're going to be start looking into Asian Pacific fascism and
you'll be like, wow, I didn't know that world existed.
So yeah, welcome, you're welcome, welcome.
Officially, it's. A blessing and a curse it is.
It truly is. Sovereign citizens also see
taxes as a blessing and a curse because that's where they they
originally started. They started off as an
amalgamation of these like tax protesters meets like off grid
kind of people mixed with a little bit of racist hate and
anti state like anarchism. So like like all like that's
kind of like their vibe, like they don't want, they don't want
to like they don't want the government stepping on their
toes. But they're also like
incredibly, incredibly racist and incredibly confrontational
people. As we're going to discuss later
on the show, environmental radical anarchist groups like
the Pine Tree Riots. You can visit our series on the
Great American Redoubt For more information on those guys if you
want to. They can also fall under the
umbrella of sovereigns. So like sovereign citizens, like
the the template is based like white racists, but like you can
get a whole swath of like new age hippie types underneath of
this too. It's a really interesting, I
don't want to call it a philosophy because I, I that
that gives it too much credit. I yeah, a way of life.
Let's just call it that. So the movement really comes out
of the 70s like as a formalized idea.
But a majority of sovereign see the 14th Amendment as the
starting point, right? It's like they're Rosetta Stone.
It's the decoder ring of like the sovereign citizen movement
because a majority of their theories stem from there.
And, and it's mostly racist, mostly like cooked philosophies
because they claim that the 14th amendment redefined what it
means to be a citizen in the United States.
Anyone who was born after the ratification of the of the 14th
Amendment is not a a legitimate sit American citizen and most
presidents, with the exception of 1 and I'm going to let you
guess who that president is according to sovereign citizens,
have all been illegitimate. I'm going to take a a stab in
the dark. Circle gets the square, they
say. They say circle gets the square.
Yes, of me. I love that.
I'm trying to tell people 14th amendment it's no good anchor
babies. A reminder for you real quick,
we've been talking about this in our weekly round UPS on our own
pretty frequent basis at this point that naturalized citizens
comes out of the 14th Amendment. And we've been talking a lot
about immigration recently and how destructive this this, this
administration is. And so some sovereign citizens
see the Trump administration as an extension of their belief
system. And that's a really important
thing to keep in mind as we go through this episode.
And as you start to see like, probably more because the
sovereign citizen movement is picking up speed, you'll
probably see more and more of this kind of thinking.
But yeah, anyone who's born after the 14th Amendment in this
country is not AUS citizen. They or or at least an
illegitimate citizen. And that for me, that's, that's
interesting because I was born in Mexico, my mom was from the
United States. But so I, I have a birth
certificate, but with all the stuff that that Trump's doing,
it does make me like feel a little nervous just especially
with this talk with the sovereign citizens about if
you're born after the 14th. Yeah, I wasn't born in the
United States. Well, you know, I think there
there is a certain group that we're going to talk about here
in a little bit that will give you citizenship to wherever you
want to be. So don't you worry.
I got I, I know a guy, I know a guy who can change.
I got a guy, I got a guy who can change out my outlets now.
And I got a guy who who can get you an illegal passport anywhere
in the world you want. So, so another thing to to to
know about sovereign citizens is that they think that the United
States is a corporation and not a nation.
So that's a really important part of their philosophy.
And we're going to dig into that here in a second.
But in general, though, sovereign citizens believe they
are not under the jurisdiction of the federal government and
consider to themselves exempt from U.S. law.
They use a variety of conspiracy theories and falsehoods to
justify their beliefs and their activities, some of which are
illegal or violent. And those aren't like hand in
hand. Sometimes they're just illegal,
and sometimes they're just violent.
And more than many times that. More than enough times at least,
they're both. The rejection of legal
documentation such as Social Security numbers, driver's
licenses, vehicle registration and other forms of government
identification lead to frequent interactions with law
enforcement. And we're going to talk about a
couple of the run insurance that I've seen in the last couple of
days. But typically sovereign
citizens, you know, their stops with police take over 1/2 an
hour. So it's kind of hard to condense
that down into podcast form. But like, believe me when I tell
you I've watched like 3 hours today of sovereign citizens
alone. Just like, yeah, no, no, no, no.
Here's my, here's my stack of papers.
I need you to read through every single page.
They're an insane group of people.
Well, and it, it's really interesting that you said that
too, because I was, I really went down a rabbit hole for a
while. Some were sovereign citizens,
but the others were Hispanic. But border crossing, so were
they had ICE agents 50 miles, 100, you know, miles inland from
the border. And then so you have these like
white entitled guys saying I'm a fucking trend.
Did I cross a border? Am I, am I in another country?
Am I free to go? And it's just these
confrontations with, you know, border control and the setups.
And then you have the other side where, you know, you have
Hispanic people saying like, why are you stopping me?
Why am I, Why are you pulling? Are what?
Are we in Nazi Germany? Like I'm across the border?
I'm in the United States? Yeah, yeah, Sovereign citizens,
they have a couple of different names they go by in, in
sovereign citizens, obviously the most used one that they they
go by, but they also call themselves American state
nationals, state citizen, constitutionalist, Freeman, free
woman upon the land. And most importantly for our
conversation that we're going to get to here in a little bit,
Moorish nationals. So in 2024, sovereign citizen
activities fell into four different categories.
And we're not going to go into like all the detail around them,
but I I wanted to touch on one in particular and that is the
sizeable number of violent incidents primarily against law
enforcement. A quick Google brings up an
incredible amount of encounters between sovereigns and police,
like the 2019 incident where a Tennessee sovereign was
convicted of aggravated assault after he bitten the thumb off of
a police officer during a struggle.
Do you know how hard you have to bite to bite through bone,
Sergio? I mean, I'm just thinking of
like, what the sometimes when you get those, like do you ever
eat mambas? They were good if they weren't
like rock hard or like the Bazooka Joe bubble gum where you
tried to chew it at at. You'd have to have Bazooka Joe
level kind of intensity to do that.
Like Jesus Christ, the the, the, the bite pressure that it's a
that's, that is a that's a pit bull level of bite, like jaw
bite pressure. You've got to have there.
Yeah, dude, like, I'm just thinking like, you have to, you
have to like bite and RIP at the same time.
And I mean, you're not taking multiple like nibbles at it.
You're you have to go kind of all, all in or nothing, Dude.
That's crazy shit. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. It's fucking nuts, man.
These sovereign citizens. Like I've never been in a police
interaction where I'm like, yeah, no, I know they're going
to profile me here. But like, you know what?
That guy puts his finger near my face.
I'm biting that motherfucker. Off.
I wonder what his thumb tastes like.
Yeah. Exactly.
Well, how about the Louisiana
sovereign who shot a tow truck driver who came to repossess his
vehicle after the guy decided to stop making payments on his
vehicle because he was like, you know what?
This isn't a proper government contract, so I don't have to pay
anything. But then what?
What's the level of just like? So I just decided I don't have
to pay. So I'm just going to take.
It's like, I guess it's like goes back to Manifest Destiny.
Yeah, no, these people truly think anything after the 14th
Amendment doesn't count. Sergio.
It's it is. Wild.
Just like being able to take whatever you want and just like
that's what I want, so I'm just going to take it.
Well, keep that in mind for later.
Keep that in your back pocket because we're going to come back
to that second category of activity.
That was crime that the sovereign citizens participate
in, are crimes committed that they don't end violently or
don't have a violent component to them.
And those include carrying like the illegal carry of firearms
across state lines, possession of explosives, resisting arrest.
You get the vibe. It's not we're.
Trying to take guns to the airport or whatever.
Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep. Who are you to tell me as a
sovereign what I can do in this? Airport.
It's bringing my AR-14. Yeah, seriously, 3rd category of
activities was the merger of sovereign citizens and non
sovereign citizen extremists. So we're talking about like
militia members who kind of like start to like dip their toe into
sovereign citizen stuff a little bit.
I'm thinking very explicitly like the Michigan militia who
tried to, you know, kidnap a governor, if you recall.
Yeah. Did they get they didn't get
pardoned there? Were they trying to get like,
get pardons? I think, I think there was an
attempt to get a pardon. I don't know if those pardons
have been granted yet, but I wouldn't discount that before
Trump leaves office. Oh, without a doubt.
Yeah. And the fourth area of activity
was the creation and growth of sovereign shadow governments
called assemblies, whose formation is based on both
historical U.S. law and made-up arbitrary rules, which is just
an incredible thought. Like, yeah, you know what?
Today I feel like I own all of your chickens.
Just like what are we talking about?
Sir, I'm going to take those chickens from you, from, you
know, they're, they're mine now. I these these are some of the
most fascinating people and also some of the scariest people.
They typically involve the formation of governments,
various government agencies, and these include, but are not
limited to sovereign militaries, sovereign postal unions,
sovereign motor vehicle departments, basically anything
that we have today, but just how they want it to be, which means
literally nothing since these people are absolutely bonkers
and they can just make up whatever they want whenever they
want to. It's a very interesting group of
people because like when they like, they try to like, like
charge you for something like even like the most minuscule
penalty that you can face could equal the death penalty somehow.
Like they like it's whatever they want on the on that day
basically. I was just having some crazy
thoughts in my head just popping in, but I I just think right now
about technology and especially with 3D printing and what the
creativity that could probably come from these weirdos.
Oh dude, we're we're going to touch on the weirdest group
after the break when we we dive into the black more sovereigns.
And I can promise you, if you think it's weird now, it's going
to get even weirder. Let's get weird.
Let's do it. We're back.
As the sovereign citizen movement developed in the 1970s
and 80s, virtually its entire membership was white.
In fact, many pioneers of the movement were full-fledged white
supremacists. They were adherents of racist,
anti-Semitic and religious bigotry.
And all of that falls into something we've also talked
about Christian Identity. So.
So this is like the traditional mold of what a sovereign citizen
is. The Moors have entered the chat
and they decided to flip all of that.
It's on on its head. Yeah, dude, it's, this is a,
this is a group that takes sovereign citizenry, mixes it
and blends it with like black supremacist movements and then
somehow like makes it like, you know what if we remember the
bombing of the move of move in Philadelphia?
Yes. Not that far away.
OK, so it's a pretty interesting like tie together here.
So the Moors belief believe in a race neutral system and have
focused rather on racist bigotry.
They've focused on the government.
So it's not about your religion or your skin color.
It's about like, do you stand against the government, which is
a far more unifying message. And as a result, they've,
they've, I think they've got like membership across 20
different states in the country at this point, which is.
But like you're, you're the big point is that it's a group of
it's black people. And so, yeah, automatically,
that's just awful. I'm not doing that.
Dude they are fucking mad and I can't wait to tell you the
story. So more Sovereign citizen
movement is a collection of independent organizations and
individuals that emerged during the early 1990s.
The Moors are adherence of which believe that individual citizens
hold sovereignty over and are independent of the authority of
the federal government, as we mentioned earlier.
But multiple more sovereign citizens across various states
have fallen into the template of like their white brethren by
committing violent and nonviolent crimes.
More sovereign citizens tend to import traditional sovereign
citizen beliefs and arguments wholesale while adding their own
emphasis and flourishes. So like there was a treaty
signed in 1786 between the United States and Morocco, which
the Moorish people or black people in the United States,
according to these folks, says gives them special immunities
and privileges all throughout the United States.
So that's like weird part number one.
That's. OK, so.
That's the wheels are slowly starting to kind of crank in my
head right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's the the the hamster wheel is going to start slowly
turning, I promise you. OK.
The Moors trace their roots back to the creation of something
called the MSTA, which is the Moorish Science Temple of
America, which was established in 1913.
And its founder was a black man by the name of Timothy Drew, but
he assigned himself the name Noble Drew Ali.
So most sovereigns like, assign a different name to themselves
to like, separate themselves from like the government entity
or the corporate entity that's been given to them.
So that that's an important thing to remember when we're
talking about. I I go by Dick toilet Sergio.
So there are lots of different groups that have come out of the
MSTA, the the More Science Temple of America and one of the
very specific groups that came out of the MSTA that we're going
to talk about today is called the Ouachita Nation.
They are like black supremacist, meet sovereign citizens.
It is just the most in mental shit I've read.
And it's like fun. Crazy though, you know what I
mean? I, you know, I, I'm ready for
this ride. I, I want to, I want to get on
that, on that train. Do they've got their own version
of the Quran like they wrote it's called the seven point
Quran. It is their own version of the
Quran because they don't believe that Christianity and they've
got a point here. Christianity isn't a black
religion like it's not like an African religion like most
African religions are. Polytheistic monotheism was
brought to them by the the Middle Eastern Semites.
You know of, of of of of Israel and of this of the Persian era.
White Devils. But no, I mean, like, you know,
it is, you know, if you look back at religious history, like
that is a very real thing that monotheism only existed in a
couple of different places and only still exists in a couple of
different places in the world. But we don't talk about
religious history tonight. So Ali decides that like, hey,
look, we're going to put together a couple of different
religious traditions here to develop a message of personal
transformation through historical education, racial
pride and spiritual uplift. His doctor was intended to
provide African Americans with a sense of identity in the world
and promote a civic involvement. So it was like while there were
a lot of different splinter cells that grew out of this,
like whole thinking like his, I guess his original idea was to
like, like take the diaspora and like give it something to like
feel pride in. But I am a I think it's time for
the weirdo shit when it comes to the MST I want.
To get weird. What is going on?
Historically, Moores are renowned as an incredibly
powerful and influential group of North Africans.
They once controlled an empire that included modern day W
Sahara, Algeria, Tunisia and Spain.
But many Moores believed that the Moroccan empire expanded all
the way to the Americas, making all Black people ultimately
indigenous to an America that predates the United States
altogether. For most of the 1,000,000 Moors
across America today, that's just their origin story.
So according to. 1,000,000 man, that's that's huge.
Dude, it's it's, it's a really big movement.
And when you when, but my, my favorite thing is like thinking
that this noble Drew Ali figure in like the early 1900s is like,
you know what? I know that like, slavery ended
like what, like 50 years ago, but you know what?
We were here first. So I'm just trying to unpack
that, just trying to think. So if his philosophy is that, do
they go by African Americans or Africans?
No, they go by Moors. It's not you're not African
American, so like. So no, there's no American.
So yeah, so like so one of the things that I was reading
through a lot of their literature during the week and
one of the big things that they they're like, we're not African
Americans, we're not Negro, we're not black.
We are Moors. They are very interesting group
because they they mix a lot of like black supremacy stuff like
so like like black Israelite, like philosophy around like no
like black people, the original Jews kind of thing.
Like they're very much in lot like in the same well grooved
pattern there so. Is it is Nation of Islam?
Are are they a black supremacy group too?
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think that I think like a
lot of like black supremacist movements probably fall under
like a, a version of whether it be heavy or light sovereign
citizen stuff. That's just my my my thinking on
it. My, my thought was just going,
so the Moors were there first, so then what's X?
But it was a white, a white plague that came in to try to
conquer the Moors in the United States during slavery and and
Jim Crow and stuff like that. Come on Greg, you're our our
residential black guy playing next to me.
Your guess is so much better than mine, honestly.
Like we could it it you know what a a meteor hit the earth.
Like it's as likely of a story. It's just as likely that a
meteor hit the earth that black people inhabited North America
and South America, which kind of leads me to like think that like
I feel like we're not, we're not talking about the real issue
here is which is as a as an original person to this nation
into this land mass, I guess that makes me Guatemalan and it
makes you black. So Sergio, I think I think now's
a good, a good a time as any to take a real quick break.
When we come back, we're going to talk about the Ouachita
Nation and the woman who ran the organization till her death.
Sergio, we're back. And let's talk about the Empress
who ran this this Wichita nation by the name of Varadichi Turner.
And like all good cult leaders, or at least people I assume have
a personality disorder, she created a very robust origin
story for herself. It was the night of the quote
high waters on the Louisiana Bayou when the Empress of the
Ouachita was born. A levee on the Mississippi had
broken and a swirling, stinking flood of was raging outside as
she burst from her mother's womb onto the cold cement floor of a
public courthouse. Within seconds, the Empress
says, there was a sign. She says this.
I was born in my placenta. I kicked out of kicked out of it
on my own. And then the placenta rolled up
onto my head like a crown. And that is how she knew that
she was born, born to be a queen.
So that is that is the origin story of our dear Empress.
By the way, it's an. You know what?
It explains a lot because I was born breeched so I I came out
like ass first so. That explains so, so much now I,
I'm putting all the pieces together as much as this is a
podcast about like my like anger therapy and like our discussions
around the extremes, this is also about like finding out so
much about you. So I'm.
Sergio's origin story. Hell yeah, dude.
We're going to put, we're going to start putting all this
together. Eventually you'll have a story
about breaking out of Placenta 2.
So on that cold. So here's her her full Empress
name, by the way, Varadichi Tiari Washitall Turner Gotsen L
Bay. That's.
A lot. That's a mouthful.
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.
And and she she burst out into the scene and set up.
Literally. But so she, she, she, she burst
out into the scene and she starts living a life of, of
actually quite an interesting back story.
She was a, a civil servant. So she worked in the federal
government and in the state government.
She was a teacher, She was an amateur historian, but she also
just happened to believe that she was the second coming of
God. And it's, that's a normal track
to take as you, you know, evolve through your life.
She didn't know it, but being a, you know, a small town mayor and
an embezzler helps her find her way into leading an organization
that believes that the land that was sold during the Louisiana
Purchase belongs to black people.
And that is an insane claim to make.
But if there is one, like, land grab that you're going to try to
make, maybe it is the Louisiana Purchase.
I mean, no one wanted that land anyway after her death and she
died, I think it was like 2011, 2012, maybe later, I don't know.
But after her death, the the family takes up her mantle and
they continue running her organization.
And again, due to the nature of the organization, I just
couldn't be bothered to look into it like the current day
side of the nation, because they're alleged crimes and those
who are tied to them are so much more interesting than their
story because they, they, they, they, they kill some people,
these, these sovereign citizens, especially the Moors, they
believe in a very violent reactionary position.
So I, I'm just thinking one of the things that's funny is that
you're scared of her. I was just thinking of you being
like in front of the mirror like candy man, and turning the
lights off and just trying to say that long name a bunch of
times for them for coming through to do something horrible
to you. Empress Viridici Tierra Empress
via di cierra. Doesn't have the same ring as
Candy Man. Yeah, or Bloody Mary.
Yeah, or bloody. Mary Yeah, yeah.
But the other thing that I, I just start to think about is
just when you said it's ludicrous that that black people
didn't have onus to the Louisiana Purchase.
I've been granted Native Americans were there, but how
much of this land has been worked and how much of it has
been ripped off from them from by the United States and, you
know, all the justices that have occurred to the African American
community. And you know, I think that's a
lot, it's a lot more fair for them to say that they have
claimed the land then then other, other groups of people.
I don't, I, so I want to make sure that the Ouachita nation
understands they've got a Guatemalan who wants to join and
he's also half Croatian. So you do with that what you
will. I, I, I can't.
I can't, no. I'm moreish.
You are more more light. More light, as they said, more
light. You know, or Blanco.
A Blanco What's what's French for white?
What is that? Launch Traitor a Blanche.
Traitor or coward? Is that what that stands for in
French? Coward.
Is that what white is? I don't know man, I was a joke
about them being bad at World wars.
Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, USAUSAU.
SA. I do say toy F1 say so.
The community has a laundry list of crimes that it's committed
and many of them are nonviolent, a lot of them.
Again, like we mentioned at the very top of this segment, we
were talking about the types of crimes that sovereign citizens
get involved in. You know, there are the violent
ones, but that most of them are nonviolent, where they get into
interactions with the police and they get pulled over.
You know, they, they, they get pulled over and, and, and in the
inspection of, of their vehicle, you know, there's a, a non
registered gun, right? A lot of those are in that kind
of kind of territory. But one of the types of crimes
the that comes to mind and came to mind to me this week when I
was thinking about this, were the crimes where they were
exercising their own right, their rights to what they, what
they call their inherited land. As we we mentioned, they believe
that they own everything in the Louisiana Purchase at very bare
minimum, right? I mean, we're talking about both
North and South America, which is what they believe they own.
But they, but they've truly do believe that like, OK, at least
here in the United States, we have ancestral rights to
different parts of land. And there was a woman I believe
was in, in Delaware County, in, in, in, in Pennsylvania, who was
trying to buy a house. And this is what happened.
The thing I like about this neighborhood is every single
house seems to have its own little bit of charm, just being
a single woman trying to compete with a lot of these couples.
I lost out on about 13 houses before I came across this one.
When I walked in the door, I was like, this is my house, so
whatever I can do to get it, I'm going to get it.
You guys, I'm not even kidding. This is the literal SWAT team
that was called. Jeanetta Little was finalizing
construction plans on her first home when a stranger changed the
locks and told her that the house she bought was actually
his. They call themselves Mores.
They basically say that they have ancestral rights due to a
lot of treaties and tribunal law that they have rights to the
land here. So you by this place, you have
this amazing vision for it and all of a sudden you get a
letter. Yes, I got 2 letters.
Actually, the first one I got from Jaleel Hugh L There were
like seals and fingerprints and signatures basically saying that
my home was on someone else's ancestral lands.
I ignored it the first time and they sent me another letter
saying because I didn't respond now.
We own this house. The third time was basically.
When all she hit the fan so they sawed off the locks put their
own. Locks on.
He's now occupying the home. How do they get him out of the
house? Oh, they busted the door down
and they basically dragged him out and it was really scary,
like. You know, I mean that is an
incredible story. Could you imagine buying a home
and then you go to get go into your house and the locks are all
changed because they someone is squatting in your home?
That is gnarly dude. The big balls that it the big
Dick toilet energy that it takes to go into someone's home and
just stay there because you think that you were having an
ancestral right to it is insane. It's that is insane amount of
confidence at the very least. You know what?
But not to be like that that guy, but also.
You if we. Take the historical context of
it. What about all the Native
American tribes that were displaced where they're just
like, Oh yeah, this is ours now? And they're like, what the fuck
you talking about? We don't.
We don't even believe in land ownership.
Yeah, no, I you look we're we're we are danger close into going
to a a more meta topic. If we if we if we start trying
to dissect everything that's wrong with the the sovereign
citizen mentality, we already dangerously met a conversation
At that point I. Don't know if I can handle that.
Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's one of those conversations that
Best had over some beers at a brewery maybe.
But here's a quick rundown of the more radical, like what the
more radicalized Moorish sovereign citizens have done.
In 2016, a Baton Rouge man ambushed 4 police officers,
killing them and also being slain by a SWAT member.
IN2021A Wakefield, MA man and nine other adults plus one child
were in a hours long standoff with police.
They claimed that they were traveling to inherited lands to
carry out militia type activities when the police
stopped them and saw they had a bunch of assault rifles and
grenade launchers in the back of their car.
So that's fun, this. Is.
Crazy. They were going to go carry out
militia activities. I don't know what kind of
militia you belong to where like the entry fee is like, hey, it's
100 bucks a month, you know, bring your own ammunition.
Got a rocket launcher? Bring it with you.
It's fine. We'll do that too.
Too easy. Like what are we doing?
Our obsession with the with guns and arms in this country.
It's a fantastic, I love it so much.
In Greenwood, Ms. in August of 2022, authorities in Alabama
arrested Edward Bush Junior, a self declared sovereign citizen,
after he allegedly shot his brother in Mississippi over a
disagreement, I believe, over a car.
So that's fun natural wise Joseph, a sovereign citizen who
claimed his legal name was straw man and his actual name was
quote X, the letter X, as in Malcolm X shot a man to death
for unclear reasons. Joseph pleaded guilty to 2nd
degree murder in 2022. But the part of that that's
really interesting is the straw man name that he calls himself
because that is a very, that's a a very common sovereign citizen
strategy when, when addressing themselves as, as individuals,
they always say, well, you mean the straw man of, of Greg or you
know, Greg, whatever. It's not a, an addressing of
themselves. It's the, well, you're talking
to what the government entity or the government corporation
entity that you think you're talking to.
But that's not who I am. I'm representing that figure,
but that's not my actual name. It's a very wild philosophy in
that way. So sovereign citizen Anthony
Azamaro allegedly killed his girlfriend by shooting her in
the head while she was in bed. He was charged for murder.
He was found to be incompetent to stay in trial in 2022.
But he was also declared himself to be a sovereign citizen.
And he, while going to trial, also pushed like Q Anon stuff
and all sorts of other conspiracy theories.
So like these things have a lot of like the the again, the Venn
diagram is very robust in this world.
And of all the Moorish sovereign citizen crimes that have been
committed, this one in struck me as the most insane sovereign
citizen. Jerry Thompson was charged with
murder after killing his landlord with a samurai sword
following a dispute over rent. And I just saw your eyebrows go
way up. Like you, your, your eyebrows
just peaked hard. He beheaded his victim after and
he was convicted for murder in 2023.
And I'm just going to let you listen to the local news clip
from that night. A man named Jerry Thompson is
being held on $2,000,000 bond. He's accused of killing his
roommate and landlord Victor King in their Hartford home with
a samurai sword. According to an arrest warrant
for Thompson, Victor King, his friend and neighbor all reached
out to Hartford police with concerns about King's safety.
King told police on Saturday, July 25th, that Thompson was
threatening him with a samurai sword after he asked him to move
out for not paying rent. King's neighbor, Christopher
Monroe asked Hartford police to conduct a house call after not
hearing from King. King's friend called police
twice Sunday. Police found King on the kitchen
floor surrounded by blood. They also found a signed lease
with Thompson and King's names. GPS locators on Thompson's phone
placed him in Bloomfield, IN. Farmington River.
Park So yeah, this guy, yeah, this guy, he fucking chopped his
roommate's head off because you know, he wasn't going to pay
rent. Sovereign citizens are fucking
like it's funny because they get into fights with police about
like their their right for travel and then they're also
fucking terrifying because they'll go as far as chopping
off their roommates head because they don't want to pay rent.
This is a very interesting wide umbrella to say the least.
It there's just so many layers to it because you just think of
all of yeah, I mean, I guess you can't say it for every like
religious cult or, or movement like that.
But they're like when we talked about move, there's a lot of
really good stuff in there trying to, you know, take back
to the land, trying to, you know, organize for black people,
you know, try to go against kind of normal society.
And then it it can get just get so corrupted so quickly.
Or then you have people that either have these really big
personality disorders are mentally ill that that are
hurting and killing people. Yeah, man, I, I, you know, when
I think about it and I was, you know, reading all this stuff
about, you know, the Moorish sovereign citizen movement and
just thinking like it's a, it's a, it's one of those things
where kind of like we were talking.
I mean, you brought it up and it was a great example of around
move and I, you know, I I extend that thinking to like ideas of
like, well, yeah, no, when when Tucker Carlson and and Ted Cruz
got into that fight and we're all like, yeah, go Tucker.
Like it was that one memo where we could all kind of agree like,
yeah, you know what, Like, all right, I'm not maybe I'm not on
board with like the whole Louisiana purchase thing.
But like, there's got to be something more like Black people
do deserve a whole lot more recognition for what we've done
for the nation. And, you know, we can maybe have
a conversation around reparations or something like
that, right. Like, but you know, as well as I
know that we weren't here first. It's just like, that's just not
like, like the mythology of things and like, oh, well,
you're a sovereign citizen. Well, what does that?
Oh, you're going to cut your roommates.
Oh, OK. Yeah, no, you got a samurai
sword, dude, go for it. Whatever.
Like that's there's, there's, there's got to be like a
backstop to that kind of thinking at some point in time,
right? Yeah, there there has to be some
some rules that everybody has to follow and not just people that
choose to. Yeah.
No, I agree with that. I agree with that.
Let me go ahead and let's go ahead and give our final
thoughts and then we can wrap up our episode.
And so my final thoughts are this.
If you come across a sovereign citizen, run.
Don't stick around. It's the best advice I've got.
They're crazy group of people who, much like a big Dick toilet
or Bigfoot doll, should be forgotten about at all cost and
ignored. I imagine talking to them is
like asking a four year old to explain black holes.
You won't understand a fucking thing they've got to say and
they're going to make up 90% of it.
So just do your best. If you ever come across one of
them, ignore them at all costs. You'll be able to note, You'll
be able to note them if you're on the road with when they've
got a license plate that says sovereign.
Like that's like it's not or or exempt.
If you see that, just go around them or stay back.
Give them like 30 cars because they're going to fucking do
something weird out there. Sergio, I'll turn it over to
you. Just take it aback.
It, it, it is really interesting because a lot of these big
movements we we said earlier have some pretty solid core like
beliefs and starts to it. However, it just goes to show in
most cases when things go unchecked and you don't have
rule and you don't have boundaries, that things move
into the extremes and you have people that are breaking laws,
killing other people and don't feel like they have to follow
the same kind of rules that everybody else has to follow.
It's, you know, in a, in a lot more simplistic way, it's, you
know, the person that just, you know, wants cut in line and just
looks at you and says, what are you going to do about it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a trimmed down way that is
it, isn't it? Yeah.
I, I think that it's, it's, you know, if we're playing by the
rules of the 1700s, you're not like, you belong in a like
really small part of like the, the, the like Ohio, Pennsylvania
line, like you, you don't belong to regular society at that
point. And maybe maybe the best option
is to give them like North Dakota and just be like, hey,
this is your place, do whatever you want.
I feel like Wyoming's got too much natural beauty.
I feel like North Dakota is like Canada, Canada, Canadian plains
South, and we just give them that and just be like, run with
it. Do whatever you want out here.
Fuck it, we don't care. There's nothing out here for you
anyway. Eastern Colorado Shitty.
It's all desert. It's true we can give them a
couple High Plains, but they'd find some way to fuck up like
the natural wildlife out there. Give them, give them nothing.
Give them North Dakota, But yeah, anyway, fuck those people.
Fuck the sovereign citizens. I'm sure we're going to come
back to these guys eventually because there are lots of
different types of philosophies that we could talk about with
these guys. But until then, listeners, we
want to thank you for enjoying another episode of At the
Extremes. Do subscribe and share.
It goes a long way. You can reach out to some Blue
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And until next week. Educate yourself bro.