If I have 5 or 10 or 20 agents that are working for me full
time and I'm one person now you extrapolate that out by the
millions of developers that are out there, where are we
bottlenecking everywhere. Stephen O'Grady is the Co
founder and principal analyst at Redmonk, where he spent over 20
years tracking the technology shaping software development.
His research spans open source, cloud computing, AI and
developer tooling, making him one of the industry's leading
voices on where software is heading next.
Could he tell us which trends are real, which are just hype,
and what developers should actually be paying attention to?
I get the feeling you don't subscribe to this.
Overly simplistic idea of SAS is dead.
I do not. I find probably the notion kind
of laughable. In fact, there was a phrase for
many years it was you don't adapt SAP to your business, you
adapt your business to SAP. But what you figure out is that
customizing the software your business comes with some pretty
significant costs. I think we're still figuring out
the paradigms here, right? OK, let's talk about some of the
research you've been doing. Well, what have you been up to?
We have been, I think like a lot of people trying to sort of
understand as best we can the implications of AI on
developers, on other practitioners, on organizations,
on open source. And, you know, I think the, the
sort of clearest take away is not going to come as a surprise
to anybody who's tracked the field or used the tools is that
things are moving very, very quickly.
So that makes a lot of work for us because it's, you know,
you're, you're, you know, conclusions you come to one day
or maybe different, you know, sort of the next day.
So a lot going on. What are some key signals you've
been seeing? So key signals, I think the
couple things I think to, to think about.
So we're here at the MCP Dev Summit, right?
So I, I ran some numbers before I came down looking at downloads
of MTP related software, the SDK primarily.
The growth of that was pretty extraordinary.
You know, it was a kind of a hockey stick going up and to the
right, you know, with a caveat that's just downloads, right?
That doesn't necessarily imply for actual usage and deployments
and and so on. The sort of flip side of that
coin is, is that if you, you know, with technologies, that's
sort of an experience, an initial surge of interest.
You tend to see sort of a lack of deployments in that the
downloads and sort of ultimately rise and then greater as people
figure out like, oh, hey, there actually isn't that much use
here for me. That hasn't happened in the data
that we've seen yet. So we can't prove that it's sort
of being in use everywhere. But is like I said, at least the
consumption of of the MCP related software is is sort of
up and to the right. Wait, what are some past
experiences that have? Probably one that comes to mind.
We didn't sort of track it much because we were sort of
convinced that there wasn't a there.
There was the Web 3 stuff. So Web three saw a ton of sort
of initial interest and then people figured out, I don't
actually have much use for this. And so the that initial surge of
interest in many cases just sort of Peter back out after sort of
a lack of just a lack of sort of immediate applicability or use
cases. So, so that's one thing that
we've been looking at trying to measure, you know, sort of the
as best we can, you know, sort of via a variety of sources as
soon As for the uptake of of various other open or sort of AI
sort of related packaging sort of across a wide variety of of
software ecosystems. Again, it is just things are
moving so quickly. There's tons of it, you know,
and, you know, obviously as, as you know, folks who study what
practitioners do, we use these tools ourselves, you know, quite
a bit. So I was joking the other day
that the, you know, your, your tokens are exhausted, you know,
come back at 2:00 PM is kind of the, you know, sort of the new
way I have to wait for my compiler to finish.
So there's many cases where we're sort of waiting on on our
our tokens to refresh and sort of as it were, as we use these
tools. But yeah, I think that the
biggest, I think the biggest takeaways are things that we've
known sort of been in ways for a couple of years now, which is
that the tooling has the ability to generate software at high
velocity sort of on an individual basis.
And the implications for that are vast, right?
So the implications for that on an individual basis, right?
If I can output, you know, some multiple of the software that I
used to, what does that mean for me as an individual?
What does it mean for the infrastructure that I rely on?
What does it mean for the businesses in a sort of that,
you know, developers work for? And what does it mean for sort
of other ecosystems like open source, right.
So yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a brave new world with a lot going
on. I get the feeling you don't
subscribe to this overly simplistic idea of Sassa's dead.
I do not. I find probably the notion kind
of laughable, in fact. So before becoming an analyst, I
used to be a systems integrator. And part of my job was to take
various pieces of packaged software, CRM portals, and sort
of all these sorts of things and implement them.
And one of the things you figure out pretty quickly is that if
you sit and ask a business to describe how they want an
application to function, it takes forever because everyone
has an opinion, everyone wants their sort of little, you know,
sort of a workflow sort of included.
And so, you know, for many of the SAS offerings, you know,
kind of the SAS is kind of like the, I don't know, there was a
phrase for many years it was you don't adapt SAP to your
business, you adapt your business to SAP.
And you know, on the one hand, that seems, you know, kind of
backwards, right? You think you, hey, I want to
customize the software my business.
But what you figure out is that customizing the software your
business is it comes with some pretty significant costs.
Right. And for what value?
For what value, right? But it makes hiring more
difficult, right? So in other words, I can go find
somebody off the street that knows Work Day or Salesforce or
SAP or whatever. I can't hire somebody off the
street who knows my bespoke like a CRMERP, you know, HR system.
It also to me places too much emphasis on the software as the
only asset, right. So if your work day as an
example and you are responsible for things like HR compliance
and geographies all over the world, do you really want to
have to recreate that from scratch?
Probably not. So like, I think, you know, AI
will have certainly an impact on, you know, various SAS
businesses, but the whole SAS is dead.
You know, to me is a, to me that suggests that the people saying
that are people who think that the only thing that goes into
these equations are software. And that is, in my experience,
not the case. For me, it feels much more
nuanced. It feels like you have certain
chunks of a workflow that don't need to be part of a greater SAS
solution, and those you can claim as your own, but that's
not the whole story. Well.
And also, I think a lot of it depends on, you know, look, if,
if a SAS can't give you what you want, all right, if you are sort
of a, a outlier, right, for whatever reason, OK, you know,
AI can be a, a good way to, you know, present alternatives.
But in many cases, do you really need to reinvent the CRM wheel
or the ERP wheel? Probably not.
Now, all that being said, and what I, I am certain you will
see, and you know, we're seeing it a little bit already, is
that, you know, a is uses the proverbial Amdahl mug, right?
So the Amdahl mug was back in the day when IBM sold
mainframes, right? They used to be able to come in
and dictate terms to their customers because it's like,
we're IBM, we're the only place you can get these mainframes.
And Amdahl comes along and makes a, a competitive product.
And so even if they had no intention of switching, what
they would do is when the IBM salespeople came in, they would
prominently have an Amdahl mug sitting on their desk, right?
You know, to remind them like, hey, I have leverage from a
negotiating standpoint. So I'm certain it will be used
that way. But I don't buy the wholesale
that's a replacement. It just the cost to me, you
know, significantly outweigh any potential benefit.
Well, for me, there are a lot of use cases that I find
fascinating when. Folks.
Can stand something up faster than they can get a tool through
procurement. Yeah.
So that's like the opposite end of the spectrum where you say,
OK, these work days and Salesforce, those have been in
my company since before the beginning of time.
We're not going to really worry about that, but for a new tool,
you really have to have a strong value prop as to why I'm going
to use that and go through all the headache of taking six
months to get it through my. Procurement team, yeah, Yeah.
And as the person at our company who deals with procurement, I'm
sympathetic to that stance. I think the flip side of that is
that, you know, when I've had these conversations with folks,
they're like, hey, what if I could take my licensing costs,
you know, to sort of make them zero?
And what if I could do XY and Z? And it's like, right, but then
you have to operate it, right. And so there's a whole lot of a
number of sort of very large banks, as one example, you know,
sort of decade or more ago figured, OK, you know what, I
don't want to pay, you know, sort of a, a platform tax.
So I'm going to write my own essentially developer portal
software. And what they found then is, is
that now you you own that, right?
You are responsible for keeping it up to date, you're
responsible for securing it, you're responsible for operating
it. And number of these banks have
subsequently come back and said, you know what, this was not the
best use of our time because this is not differentiating for
us, right? Us being able to host
applications doesn't give us a competitive advantage over other
organizations. And so, you know, I think you'll
see, you know, sort of in some cases, you know, companies that
that sort of get frustrated with the procurement are like, OK,
you know what, I'm just going to go build this, then realize
6/12/24 months down the line, like I don't really want to be
in the business of operating this.
And it's not really giving me sort of anything, you know, I
couldn't get through easily and more more easily and cheaper
elsewhere. What I saw, which was very eye
opening for me is a company that I feel is very advanced in the
way that they're doing agents. Yep.
They have had the talk to my data use case since basically
when Chachi BT first launched. That was one of their first use
cases that they set up. They've been tuning it for the
past three years and it is very well done.
They just hit me up the other day and said, can you tell me
all of the talk to your data vendors because I think we're
ready to outsource it, yeah. And I, I think you'll see a
fair, a fair amount of that because it's look it, it's easy
to, you know, I, I tell this story all the time now, right?
So you know, up until November when you know, the first of the
new models arrived right in Opus 4-5 and obviously 46 right 46
now 4-5, I think was the one that was released in in late
November. So we had this inflection point,
right? There's a before and there's an
after. And the tools are very truly
useful before they would do interesting things in the wake
of that. Oh my God, it's just a night and
day difference, right? So the canonical example I point
to there is Ala Dodgers fan who happens to do the website
designed for CNN. So he built this essentially
data analytics portal for the Dodgers and released it as open
source software. So I've always thought like, oh,
hey, I should pour this over for the Red Sox and so on, and just
never found the time to do it. And I would always throw, you
know, all of the tools like hero and cursor, windsurf, anti
gravity, all these things at it. And they did get most of the way
there, part of the way there, and then joke and sort of stall
out and then over the holiday. And like a lot of folks did when
Anthropic was giving people sort of more credits, I threw a clot
at it and it worked. And it did all the things it
needed to do, which was great. The flip side is, is that after
realizing this, it's like, oh, OK, you know what?
I want a dashboard for this. And, you know, I want an
application that's going to go do that.
So I ended up building, I don't know, a dozen, you know,
different things like little small toy apps.
And you quickly, this is just on an individual level, right?
You get to the point it's like, right?
Wait, which one was that and where did I put it?
And what is that actually running on?
I don't remember where it's hosted.
What conversation was I having with Claude?
Where's the context? I have no idea where we're at.
And that's literally on an individual like, you know, sort
of very amateur basis. And so, yeah, I think when a lot
of enterprises figure out like, oh, I can start turning these
things out, I think they'll be this burst of turning things
out. And then after a little while,
it's like, OK, this one is real and sort of new and
differentiated. And I want to, I want to keep
this. But in many cases it, you know,
they're going to find, you know, the cost of those sort of
operating, securing, protecting, maintaining, you know,
continuing to develop, you know, these one offs is not going to
be worth it. They're going to start throwing
around the sexiest word in the English language.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, so, but I.
You know what I noticed when playing with it over the
holidays is I had this theory of oh wow, software is becoming
local 1st as opposed to I'm going to create an app and then
expose it and expect scale. Yep, it's like, no, I'm just
going to have my own things and help my own workflow.
But then it went from me going software is local first now to
I've fully pivoted and now I'm like, but why do I even need an
app if I can just build a skill that can do it?
So I don't need the overhead of an app or even a local first app
is not it's too much to worry about.
Let's just do it with a skill because it's the lightest thing
that I can think of. Yeah, yeah.
And that's the thing. I think we're still figuring out
the paradigms here, right, right.
We're still figuring out, you know, to your point, like what
do we need an app for? What does that app look like?
Do we need an app at all? Do we need a skill?
Do we need, you know, for some, you know, sort of stub or
approximation like. So I think that the biggest
thing is, is that the sort of, as we talked about at the top,
you know, when you take the cost of producing code and drive it,
you know, maybe not quite to 0, but near 0, we're going to have
to rethink a lot of different things.
We're going to have to rethink, you know, what we do
individually. We're going to have to rethink
the infrastructure we rely on. Businesses are going to have to
rethink what they build. You know, because it's, I'm
trying to remember the context in which I brought this up from
research standpoint. But one of the things that we
see, you know, we've been through this sort of, you know,
multiple ways where we've taken something relatively monolithic
and broken it up into pieces. So virtualization is probably
the simplest example of that, right?
And we had physical machine, you break that up into sort of some
multiple of that virtual machines.
And one of the things you figure out is, is that that comes with
benefits, but it also comes with costs, right?
And you know, I talked to one of the first large banks that move
over to the VM Ware and said, you know, hey, how's it going?
And they were kind of lukewarm when I thought, oh, is this, you
know, a problem with the software?
Is this an issue? And he said, no, no, like, look,
we've had all the marks that we want.
Our utilization rate is way up, you know, the, the deployment
density is way up. And I was like, well, what's
the, But he said, you know, like, you know, managing, you
know, 500 physical machines is one thing, managing 5000 virtual
ones is a different thing, right?
And so I think what we're going to see for a lot of these
organizations is, you know, if you now have 10X more
applications to manage, that is going to be a special challenge
of its own. Yeah.
Or even I know folks are talking about that with agents.
I've now got 5000 agents that our company uses, or 30,000
agents it sounds like. They're.
Testing that and they're running fast and they want to do that,
but then later they'll recognize maybe it's not worth it.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that's right,
right. And it's, you know, we're in
that initial burst of creativity where we're just creating things
because we can and, and because it's easy and it's frictionless
and so on. And, you know, we're going to
get to a point where, you know, we, we have to reckon with that
volume, right? And if we're not there yet, you
know, I think many individuals are certainly I am.
I'm like, Oh my God, where is, as I said, where is all this
stuff and where do I put it? Organizations are going to get
there pretty quick. Yeah.
So then that's a very clear signal.
What other stuff have you been seeing in the research?
So. One of the things that is coming
up in sort of various quarters is the strain on infrastructure,
right? So you know, when you know, you
think about individual developers, right?
And you think about things like projects like Gastown, right
from Steve Yagi, right, which is like, OK, you know, we have a
team or swarm or pick your term of choice of, of individual
agents, right? So if one developer suddenly
becomes overnight a, a essentially a swarm of dozens of
developers, like what does that do to our infrastructure?
And is our infrastructure built for that?
And the answer is no. And So what you're seeing from,
you know, things like package sort of management repositories
is that their traffic is through the roof and their cost for
simply maintaining things like bandwidth, right, and scale and
so on are dramatically up, you know, because there's much more
usage. And that's without getting into
all the other things that go into our infrastructure, right?
Like, so, you know, triaging PRS, right?
How do I sift through these, right?
I just talked on somebody earlier that apparently the, the
time to sort of resolve PRS is up significantly, you know, in
part because there's just so many more of them.
So, yeah, like I said at the, I think at the top, the the ripple
effects from, you know, sort of taking this this code and making
it so much easier our profound and we're seeing that sort of
manifested in just various strains and and stresses on our
infrastructure, you know, that we really have.
Yeah. And which different parts of the
infrastructure? Because I instantly think if I
have 5 or 10 or 20 agents that are working for me full time and
I'm one person now you extrapolate that out by the
millions of developers that are out there.
Yep. Where are we bottlenecking
everywhere. Right.
So everything from code review to build systems, production,
deployment, security review, I mean Pickett, right?
And any one of these things is getting swamped.
And you see it's an open source, you know, where maintainers are
just flooded with, you know, essentially AI slop PRS.
And so it really isn't sort of an aspect of infrastructure
that's not as we're being stressed, you know, by the
volume, you know, that we're seeing.
And, you know, sort of AI can help with some of this, right?
So in other words, like, you know, there are companies doing
AI security review, there are companies doing AI QA and
software review and all these sorts of things.
But it's going to be, you know, it's going to be a bit right
before, you know, those technologies are sufficiently
mature to to really help offset the stresses here.
So honestly, at this point, you know, really the only thing
that's gotten a lot easier is generating the code.
Everything that's downstream of that is.
Is more complicated. Yeah, the code reviews, I I have
not been sold on these PR code review type of agents because it
feels like just a different prompt and a different sub
agent, yeah. Yeah, well, and it's, you know,
you see people trying to get around it.
It's like, let's talk about somebody last week who they just
pit the agents against each other, right.
Almost like a Ralph loop. You know, the Ralph Wiggum loop
came out, I guess it was over the holidays, I think.
But anyhow, they'll, they'll basically bounce, you know, sort
of code between two different agents and, you know, from two
different models from two different vendors to try to, you
know, sort of get some, some, I don't know, outside
objectiveness sort of as it were.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's it's like I said, it's going to be a
bit before we, you know, digest all this stuff is going to work
together. Yeah.
You did mention the package managers getting flooded and I
find it fascinating that we also saw UV get bought and then BUN
also got bought and you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah. So, you know, I think the short
version is, is that, you know, what you're seeing in terms of
the acquisitions are people, you know, who want to control, you
know, sort of critical pieces of infrastructure, right, and choke
points. Yeah, right.
And you know, I think, you know, that makes sense.
You know, we'll we'll see sort of how that plays out and you
know, whether that, you know, becomes a problem in terms of,
you know, sort of how some of the projects are sort of
developed, manifested, shared, etcetera.
But on the package management front, yeah, really I think if
you talk to any of this sort of major pack, you know, package
repositories, you know, they're seeing significantly, you know,
more traffic, right? And it's an inevitable
consequence, right? If you, you know, as we were
talking about a moment ago, if you take 1 developer and turn
him or her into 20 developers virtually, right, the systems
are simply not equipped. They were restraining, you know,
sort of with the demand pre AI and now you have, you know, sort
of this additional multiple, you know, sort of applied.
It's yeah, like I said, it's inevitable in terms of how that
plays out. I have some questions from a
mutual friend, Alex, that I wanted to pull up.
OK. And he was asking about we kind
of answer this one. You know, Red Monk tracks
developer adoption patterns better than almost anyone.
Let me try. What signals are you seeing
around MCP adoption? Is it following the trajectory
of early integration standards like REST or Graph QL or is
something different happening? Yeah.
So the way I'll answer that is that I posted this is bad looked
it up for coming down here. I posted on Blue Sky in May of
last year that in, in our experience at Red Monk, we've
been doing this for a very long time.
MCP was the fastest project to become a de facto standard that
we had seen. And Kelsey Hightower had
replied, no, no, I think it's Docker.
And obviously a lot of it depends on sort of what metrics
you're looking at and and and so on.
But I went back and for us, Docker had been our our sort of
fastest growing de facto standard and that took about 13
months. MCMCP took about 13 weeks.
And so the sort of rise was meteoric.
And I have, like I said, I've been doing this a while.
I cannot remember another time when, you know, it was a period
of like 2 to three weeks from our first hearing about it in
what's it been in November, October, November, I guess at
24, I think that's right. And then, you know, within less
than a month talking to multiple vendors who were like, Yep, this
is the standard. I'm like, I literally just heard
about this last month. Like that doesn't happen and so.
Why do you think that is? Why do you think everybody
jumped on board so quickly? Well, I mean, I think for, for
me, I think it's a simple, it's a fairly simple equation in that
the models are incredibly capable, but we didn't have good
sort of good standardized ways to connect them to different
data sources, right. And they are that much more
helpful, productive, useful, you know, capable, you know, when we
can give them access to things that, you know, sort of aren't
public in sort of one way or another.
And so. So there's pent up demand.
Pent up demand was like, hey, this is great, but I'd like to
have this over here. So as an example, if you go and
look at Google Trends data, all right, and you you look at data
centers as a trend, there's a noticeable spike in December of
2022, I think it is. And it occurs roughly a month
after ChatGPT debuted. And so who knows what it is.
But certainly one potential explanation for that is that
people looked at this and said, wow, this is incredible
capability and technology. What if I could have this on
site and do it, you know, sort of feed it my data?
And, you know, I think that was a lot of the sort of vision and
promise for MCP upfront is OK, I can begin to connect this and
sort of make it useful. And so, you know, my question
coming in, you know, to this event was, is that still true?
Right. And we we know that data was As
for where it was, you know, about a year ago.
But you know, you see in in what was it February, right?
There's a piece that came out. It was like, oh, MCP is dead.
Long live CLI on us. And so the question was, OK, you
know, are we seeing anything in a in a way that would indicate,
you know, sort of a drop off or as we talked about at the top
right, we're not like the the charts, at least at this point
are still sort of up and to the right.
You know, they're growing tons of tons of downloads and so on.
So yeah, I think the short version is, is that it is
incredibly, incredibly me York in terms of its rise.
And that's largely driven by the fact that it is.
Yeah, just giving giving models additional data and context the
sources they didn't. Have I want, I wanted to like
meander down one of these streets, but I think I'm, I'm
just leave it because I think that is, you said everything
that needed to be said and it's like beating a dead horse a
little bit. So I'm I'll go on to the next
question. The next one that I had from
Alex was asking about. In your research, have you seen
what folks are actually building with MCP?
Yes, so I don't, I'd have to look at that.
I have to have the graphic in front of me.
So folks that are listening to this, if you go to LinkedIn,
look up Stephen O'Grady my, my LinkedIn page.
I posted the graph that I'm talking about.
I don't know, it's what is it today, Today's April 2nd.
It would have been April 1st or March, the last day of March, I
can't remember which they did. Anyhow in there, you know, sort
of there's a sort of rough breakdown in terms of categories
that we're seeing. You know, so most of it's
predictably just sort of generic AI, there's CRM, there's
commerce, there's all kinds of different things in there.
But that's also sort of a rough assessment of categories from,
you know, sort of base software descriptors.
All right. So what we don't have insight
into and what's hardest to get always is where people actually
doing in deployment, right? Because not surprisingly, most,
most folks don't let us come in and see their running in
production infrastructure. So we have to sort of, you know,
work backwards from all right, what are we seeing in terms of
patterns of, you know, downloaded software and packages
and, and things of that nature. But you know, the, the, I guess
the gist of it from an MCP perspective is that there are
lots of categories, right? It's not a, oh, hey, here two or
three or four or five. And then I think we graphed, I'd
say probably north of 20 sort of different sort of rough high
level categories of of of usage. Well, it begs the question about
the ecosystem around MCP also and what you've seen in that
regard. Yeah.
So the ecosystem, I think to me the critical step was, and this
will sound self-serving because we're at a foundation event.
But you know, the biggest issue to me was initially was OK, it
sort of took office as de facto standard.
But it's very difficult for for large vendors to contribute to
projects that are wholly owned by another vendor, right?
Because they are appropriately concerned about like, hey, am I,
why am I sort of underwriting your software development costs?
Like, you know, when you can on a whim do whatever you want with
this project. So the, the key for me, and I
frankly took longer than I thought it would, but the key
for me was like seeing it through housed within a
foundation. Because once you have a
foundation, the ecosystem becomes much easier to form
because the large vendors who have the ability to throw people
at the project are comfortable then working on a, on a project
in a, in a vendor neutral space, right.
And like I said, if that project stays with Anthropic, you know,
not that Anthropic can't do a good job of developing.
They iterate very, very quickly. They're very good at what they
do. But if you want industry
support, you know, at some point it has to become a sort of
neutral project because you just can't attract the same type of
commercial community, at least in many cases the non commercial
community as well. So that was the biggest step, I
think in terms of allowing a a large ecosystem to form around
it. And how about all of the
different, so you have companies that are supporting MCP and the
and the protocol, but then you have companies that are being
built on top of it. Have you looked at that type of
ecosystem also? Not as much, you know, we're
we're sort of more focused on the lens at this point in terms
of all right, you know, sort of what's the base level
infrastructure. So in other words, like, you
know, just on stage this morning, right, you have the
Duolingos and you have this for all these companies here, like
here's what we're building on, here's how we're using it and so
on. Those are great.
Those are interesting. But in other words, like our
focus initially has been on, all right, what is this, you know,
sort of what's been the growth of this project and what does
this look like? Because without a certain level
of critical mass, a certain sort of traction, you know, the kind
of the, the end user use cases are academic because they're
not, you're not going to get there without that kind of that,
that traction. So, you know, we see some of
those sort of common ones, you know, that you'd see in in, you
know, things like the keynotes this morning, but don't have any
quantitative insight into that. One thing that the last guest
who is here, Jeremiah, just said is the majority of the use cases
he's been seeing are internal use cases of NCPI.
Wonder if you have any insights into that.
I'd say that's very likely, you know, because like, you know,
particularly in the early stage, I mean, you know, when, when MCP
was really like there was no off initially.
Right now it's, you know, there's a lot 22.1 I think.
And you know, it's the, you know, you heard multiple times
this morning, you know, the, the trifecta, right, of external
access and you know, sort of internal date, all these sort of
different sort of factors that can contribute.
So in many cases, I think what we'll see, you know, the, the
build out will begin internally, right?
It'll say, OK, I want to build a system that is not exposing
things to the outside world. And I want to limit the blast
radius of any sort of learning experiences that I might have.
So everything is going to be focused initially inwardly and
then I'll get to the external piece, you know, eventually.
You know, that being said, you know, I just had a conversation
upstairs with you know who somebody was telling me they
have three external facing MCP servers at their house, right?
So. To turn on the lights.
I have no idea. I didn't, I didn't get into what
they were for. But but yeah, I think you know,
the the sort of default pattern I would expect is for people to
start internally because it's the safer thing to do.
Yeah, in theory, but then when you delete some databases or you
drop tables, then oh. Safer.
Yeah, not safe. There's a difference, at least.
Yeah, you're not ending up on the front page of the Internet.
That's right. For something that wasn't the
best. Yeah, no, not like I can't
remember who the, you know, the meta researcher who is installed
open claw. It was a yeah.
It was like a I met a safety person there.
It's so ironic. So one of their safety
researchers talking about having to run over and unplug their
mini, you know, it was like just using a bomb.
Because it's like. Don't delete my e-mail.
It's like OK I'll delete your e-mail so.
So yes you will it. It's safer, not safe.
Have you done any research into the open Claw ecosystem?
Yeah, yeah, I had to stood up for a little bit and then it's
like, yeah, you know what, I'm not, I'm not ready to dedicate
the resources that I need to, to, to keep this safe right now.
It's like, yeah, you know, so I, I was in the fortune of camp.
I already had a Mac mini, so I didn't need to.
I didn't need to wait on this. Premium.
Yeah, it was one of these like, oh, hey, this is really cool.
Then you dig into a little bit and you see the the breeches and
I'm like, you know what, like there are people who are
yellowing it and, you know, more power to you.
But I don't have the time to, to worry about that right now.
So I'll, I'll wait. And I like the vision.
I like the promise. And you know, my, my hope is
that ultimately I'll get to something that helps in sort of
manage my day-to-day better, you know, much as Open Cloud does.
But it's a little, it's a little early in that development
process for me. Yeah.
Well, this has been great man. I appreciate you coming on here.
Not at all. My pleasure.