Very enlightened parents who were determined to breakdown
gender stereotypes gave their daughter trucks for her 4th
birthday and she was absolutely thrilled with the present and
took them off to her bedroom and the parents came in and they put
the trucks in bed and pulled the covers up so that only the
headlights were showing. Same behaviors have been
deserved. Watching chimpanzees in the
wild. The juvenile female chimpanzee
is cradling the stick and pretending it's a baby.
Where's the juvenile male chimpanzee is whacking his
friend with the stiffest? The argument that the the
differences are socially constructed certainly can't be
cool story. Hey guys, welcome back to the
Lila Rose podcast. Today we have a special treat.
We're going to be having Doctor Leonard Sachs in studio.
We actually talked with him before on the show about Boys
Adrift. Why is the modern world so tough
for boys? Why are they struggling so much?
Today with Doctor Sachs, who was a family doctor, an MD and APHD
in psychology, we are also going to talk about why gender
matters. He wrote about a book called Why
Gender Matters back in 2005. It matters more than ever today,
talking about the differences between boys and girls.
We're going to talk about the research behind why gender
matters and why boys and girls are, yes, news flash, different,
as well as why it has gotten so chaotic today with the trans
ideology, so many young girls, over 35% of them identifying as
non straight, as queer or non binary or as lesbian.
What's driving that? And we're also going to talk
about the importance on the power of intergenerational
formation and development and how we've lost that as a
society. I also have some hypotheses that
I throw at Doctor Sacks and get his response.
Enjoy the episode and don't forget to subscribe to the show
if you aren't already. Support us on locals and Patreon
so that we can keep the show growing.
And don't forget to subscribe to the show if you aren't already
on podcast or on YouTube. And ring that notification bell
so that you never miss a new episode.
Doctor Leonard Sachs, welcome back to the podcast.
Thanks for inviting me. You were a very popular episode
with you before talking about boys and their struggles in
modern in the modern world, but you've written a lot of other
really important books. So I'm excited that we get
another try at this. And thanks for coming in studio.
You're welcome. How was the travel in?
Tiring. OK, well hopefully this will be
a lively discussion that will keep us awake.
All right, so for those that don't know you, maybe they
haven't heard the last episode, are not familiar with your work
yet, give us a little bit of your background as a
psychologist. Well, I am first and foremost a
family doctor. I'm a medical doctor.
I earned my MD as well as my doctorate in psychology at the
University of Pennsylvania. I am board certified in family
medicine and I am a practicing family doctor.
I've been a family doctor for over 30 years.
I have signed off on over 120,000 patient visits over 30
years time. I'm also a PhD psychologist,
which is little unusual for a family doctor.
And that has given me, I think, a unique perspective in some of
the challenges that kids are facing, that families are
facing. So you've written several books
and we've talked about one that focuses on the plight of boys,
but there's a couple more that I think are so timely and
important. One of them is The Collapse of
Parenting, the New York Times bestseller, and the other one is
Why Gender Matters. You wrote Why Gender Matters.
You first wrote the 1st edition, came out 2005.
OK, What inspired you in 2005 to write a book called Why Gender
Matters? Clearly we understand why it
matters today, why we should be talking about why it matters.
But what inspired that in 2005? So when I I attended public
schools in Ohio K through 12, and I vividly recall our high
school honors assembly when I was a junior in 1976.
The the Honors Assembly, all the kids who been recognized for
outstanding achievement were up on the stage, and it was all
boys. The editor of the school
newspaper, Andy Borowitz, was a boy.
Andy has gone on to have an amazing career.
He writes a column for the New York New Yorker magazine called
The Borowitz Report. He's a celebrity.
He wrote Fresh Prince of Bel Air for Hollywood.
The editor of the poetry journal was a boy.
The editor of the yearbook was a boy.
The there was all boys up on stage and there were people back
then, like notably Myra and David Sadker, 2 American
researchers who were writing books called Failing at
fairness, How Schools Shortchange Girls published in
1994 based on their research in the 70s and 80s showing how all
the valedictorians are boys, all the high achievers are boys.
Schools are failing girls. That's the world I grew up in.
That's how old I am. So then I graduated from Penn
with my doctorate in psychology and my medical degree.
I did a three-year residency and family medicine.
And then I started my own practice in Montgomery County,
Maryland, just outside Washington, DC in 1990.
And moving through the 1990s, I was like, boy, this, this place
is really strange because when I attended school in Ohio, the
high achievers were boys and, and now I'm seeing something
very different. I'm seeing families where the
high achievers are girls and the boys are goofballs who don't
care and are not motivated. And my first thought is, what's
wrong with Montgomery County, Maryland?
But then in the late 90s, I began to reach out to colleagues
across the United States and back home in Ohio and other.
And this is not confined to Montgomery County, Maryland.
This is a national phenomenon. What's going on?
What changed over a comparatively short period of
time for the mid 70s to the mid 90s that flipped the script so
that suddenly girls were outperforming their brothers?
Incidentally, it became very clear as I began to research
this. The gender gap was widening,
with boys falling farther and farther behind, not because
girls were doing better, but because boys are doing worse.
And so I began to look into this.
And that led to an article I wrote for the American
Psychological Association 23 years ago called Reclaiming
Kindergarten, Making Kindergarten Less Harmful to
Boys, where I talked about how early education changed, how
kindergarten used to be about duck, duck, goose and singing in
rounds and going on field trips. And by the year 2000, it was all
about literacy and numeracy and how that was immensely harmful
to boys. Because we now know that the
language areas of the brain of the five year old boy look
pretty much like the language areas of a three-year old girl.
It's not developmentally appropriate to ask a 5 year old
boy to sit still, be quiet, and learn about diphthongs for 40
minutes. I want to stop you right there
because that's so fascinating and most people don't know that,
especially in our world that's increasingly erasing gender and
the sex differences. So little boy's brain at 5 in
terms of its. The language area.
It's language. Area areas of the brain develop
in a different sequence in boys compared with girls and.
Girls develop earlier is what you're saying and.
That's. In some areas when it comes to
their language. Yeah, language.
The girls are way ahead of the boys.
And so I wrote this article, a scholarly paper, peer reviewed
scholarly paper for the American Psychological Association, just
really to get it off my chest. And to my surprise, it was
picked up by the national media of Richard Rothstein, who was
the education columnist of the New York Times, wrote about it
in his in the New York Times. And I was on television in in
Canada. It was the front page of the
National Post, which is Canadian National newspaper.
And so I actually began to be invited to visit schools and I
had visited a number of schools in in researching this question.
And and then I started speaking in more schools and was really
struck by how the lack of awareness of gender differences
harms both girls and boys. And so that led me to write Why
Gender Matters. A special thank you to our
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Goodranchers.com So since then, a lot has changed.
Mostly I would say not so much in the status of the fact that
they're different biologically boys and girls, but in politics
and culture and how we see boys and girls.
Let's breakdown. I'd love to hear you breakdown
for us. What are the differences between
boys and girls? This is how it sounds like very,
very well. I have a 7 hour workshop on that
for teachers where we go through all the differences and and how
those differences, what implications those differences
have for best practice in the classroom.
But OK, we'll take a stab at three top.
Three top differences. Developmentally.
Behaviorally. We'll try one and we'll see how
we do with that. So I cite 12 studies in which
researchers have given young children of choice of playing
with a doll or a truck, basically a girl toy or a boy
toy. As I said, we have 12 different
studies that have done basically this.
They're all the studies are a little bit different in how they
did this and what toys they offered.
But we have many, many different studies over over many years,
some recent, some going back 50 years, in which researchers have
given little kids 3456 years of age a choice of playing with a
doll or a truck. What do you find?
You find that girls are somewhat more likely to play with dolls
than they are with trucks. Boys are much more likely to
play with trucks than they are with dolls.
Now, this is not a new finding. 40 years ago, I took a graduate
seminar in developmental psychology with the late Justin
Aaron Fried at Penn. And we had a few of these
studies way back then. And Professor Aaron Fried asked,
why is this? Why do 4 year old girls slightly
prefer to play with dolls rather than trucks?
And four year old boys greatly prefer to play with trucks
rather than with dolls. Professor Aaron Fried said it's
because of the social construction of gender.
We teach kids how to do gender. And by the time kids are 3-4
years old, girls have learned that they're supposed to play
with dolls rather than trucks. And so they do.
But the girls do spend some time playing with trucks.
But Professor Aaron Fried said we send a much stronger message
to boys that boys absolutely we're supposed to play with
trucks and absolutely not for the Barbie doll.
And when I'm doing the presentation, we show the graph
and the boy picks up the the Barbie doll and drops it like a
hot potato. There's very little variation
among the boys. Very, very few boys spend any
time playing with Barbie dolls. Or.
They use it like 3 or the well, but in the studies that I'm
citing, they just don't play with it.
Yeah, I didn't question that notion of the social
construction of gender, and I don't know anyone who did back
in the 1980s. Back then, everyone agreed that
sex differences in the play preferences of young children
was due to the social construction of gender.
Why didn't anyone question that? I'm just it it seems like it.
Seemed perfectly plausible. It just seemed plausible.
Jerry and Alexander, who was then at Yale, was the first to
to come up with the idea of giving the same idea to juvenile
monkeys. Give juvenile monkeys a choice
of playing with dowell or truck, and her findings have
subsequently been replicated by Kim Wallen and colleagues at the
Yerkes Primary Research Center studying a different species of
monkey, and as well as by Richard Ragam and colleagues
observing chimpanzees in the wild.
The female monkey slightly prefers to play with Dowell's
rather than the trucks. The male monkey greatly prefers
to play with trucks rather than dolls.
Now you could try to you could try to invoke you could try to
invoke the social construction of gender.
To explain that finding, you'd have to assert that the monkey
and authority is saying something like, now, son, don't
let me catch you playing with no Dal.
But this does not happen. The monkey and authority is
making paying no attention to the choices made by the juvenile
and makes no difference. If you conduct a study in
isolation or or in the colony, you cannot plausibly invoke the
social construction of gender to explain the fact that juvenile
monkeys, greatly juvenile male monkeys, greatly prefer to play
with a dull grey chalk than rather than a colorful doll.
And this finding has to be hardwired because it's observed
in four different primates, human, chimpanzee and two
species of monkey. Jerry and Alexander was the
first to document that finding in a non human primate and also
the first to propose a plausible explanation.
And it's her explanation that many teachers have found useful
in creating gender aware instructional strategy.
So I do go into it in some detail in my book Why Gender
Matters. I have an appendix on this
topic. It turns out well.
Neuroscientists have known for 40 years that there are two
visual systems in the brains of all higher primates, human,
chimpanzee and monkey. One visual system is looking for
color, detail and texture. The other visual system is
looking for speed, change in direction, collision.
The what system and the where system is the way they're
sometimes referred to or the parvo cellular or the Magna
cellular or dorsal and ventral referring to their The fact that
these are anatomically separate streams of information in the
human brain and in the brains of monkeys and chimpanzees.
Jaron Alexander was the first to argue 20 years ago that the the
P system, the system looking for color, detail and texture,
predominates in females, and the M system, the system looking for
speed, collision, change in direction, greatly predominates
in primate males. You know, when she made that
argument 20 years ago, it was a conjecture, it was hypothesis.
But over the last 20 years, we've gotten a great deal of
research that provides strong support for her hypothesis.
For example, Katrina Almonds and her colleagues in Germany taking
slices through Hoc 5, that area 5 of human occipital cortex
that's looking for speed, collision, change in direction.
Find you can take a slice through the human brain and Hoc
5 hold that slide up to the light, and say without error
whether that piece of brain came from a man or a woman.
There is no overlap between the sexes.
The organization of the brain is radically different at Hoc 5,
even after adjusting for any size differences.
So, so just to pause here for a moment, this is separate from
your, the structure, the fact that men are physically
stronger. It's a separate from, you know,
hormone changes in the body, estrogen versus testosterone.
You have more testosterone also leads from strength, maybe more
agility. This is just about brain
development. This is about the organization
of the brain. Yes, the visual system in the
brain. And Jaron Alexander has read my
discussion of her work, and she's given it her approval.
Why do girls slightly prefer to play with dolls rather than
trucks? Because girls have more
resources in that part, in that visual system that's looking for
color, detail, and texture. So they're more interested in
things that have an interesting color, detail and texture.
Boys, Jerry and Alexander asserts, have more resources in
the magnicellular visual system, the system that's looking for
speed, collision, change in direction.
Why do juvenile males, whether human, chimpanzee or monkey,
greatly prefer to play with a dull Gray truck rather than a
Barbie doll? Because it's got wheels.
It goes kaboom. Now at this point many people
are thinking, OK, I can see how this might be interesting if I
were on neuroscientist interested in sex differences in
the visual system. But how does this help me to be
a better parent or better teacher?
Well then I said 5 studies in which researchers gave young
children a blank piece of paper and a box of crayons and said to
each child, draw whatever you want.
What do kids draw when you give them a blank piece of paper and
a box of crayons? I have a study from the United
States, from England, from South Africa, from Japan and from
Thailand. The girls everywhere draw
people, pets, flowers and trees. Typically 2-3 or four arranged
on holes on the ground. Again, in the presentation I'm
showing the pictures that little girls What age are.
We talking. Here Doctor 5678 and the girls
use 10 or more crayons for the predominance of red, orange,
yellow, green, mage and brown. The people are people,
recognizably people with eyes, hair and clothes.
What do boys draw on this parameter?
Boys form a bimodal distribution of variance which is highly
kurtotic and skewed, which is a fancy way of saying the boys
form 2 clumps. In each of these five studies,
about 8% of boys, about one in 12 boys draw pretty much what
the girls draw. They draw people, pets, and
trees. Turns out that boys who draw
people, pets and trees have a lot in common with other boys
who draw people, pets and trees. They're at least three times
more likely than other boys to have allergies, asthma, or
eczema sufficiently severe to warrant ongoing consultation
with a physician. They may be athletic, but
they're not playing football or ice hockey.
They're playing tennis, track or golf because they don't like to
hit and they don't like to be hit.
Is this the nerd stereotypically?
Indeed, and they are much more likely beginning in middle
school to become victims of bullying, because the favorite
game among middle school boys is One boy comes up to their boy
and says, hey, how about I hit you as hard as I can and you hit
me as hard as you can? This boy says, but I don't want
to hit you and I don't want you to hit me.
He runs off and boom, marks himself as a victim of bullying.
What about the more than 90% of boys In each of these five
studies I just mentioned, more than 90% of boys do not draw
people, pets and trees. In each of these five studies,
more than 90% of boys are trying to Draw Something radically
different, a scene of action at a moment of change, like a
monster eating an alien, a rocket smashing into a planet.
Human figures, if present, are often stick figures.
And I'm when I do the presentation, I'm showing you
these pictures of boys have drawn stick figures lacking
eyes, mouth, hair and clothes. The boys use 6 or fewer crayons
over the Browns of black, grey, silver and blue.
And again, Jerry and Alexander has read my chapter and she
agrees that most girls are drawing pictures that engage the
parvo cellular visual system that have color, detail and
texture. The great majority of boys, more
than 90% are trying to draw pictures that engage the
magnacellular visual system that implies speed, collision, change
in direction. That's true.
That implies hypothesis, namely that if more teachers understood
these differences, we could break down gender stereotypes.
We could have 8 year old boys who love to draw just as much as
girls do. And, and then I, when I'm doing
the presentation, I show the pictures that the kids draw.
And, and I asked the attendees to imagine that you're a teacher
and you've got second graders and you ask them to draw
whatever they want. And here this girl has drawn.
Her and her little sister and her little Kitty and her
sister's friend and the teacher saying, oh, lovely, I love
wonderful, all the color and detail, texture.
Then she comes to this boy who's just drawn a bunch of squiggles
and she says, what are you trying to draw here?
And he explains he's trying to draw a car crash at the moment
of impact. This car has been crushed
between these two. And the teacher says, you know,
Jason, a car crash that's really violent.
People are going to get killed or paralyzed.
Look at Emily's picture. It's so nice.
No one's getting killed. You know, why do you have to
Draw Something so violent? And the unattended message that
boy is getting is the drawing is for girls.
So I was visiting a second grade classroom, and the teacher said,
free time, you can do whatever you want.
And some of the girls were sitting and coloring, and one of
the boys was running around the room making a buzzing noise.
And I got in his way and I stopped him.
I said how come you don't want to sit and draw?
And he said without hesitation he said drawings for girls.
And I'm sure the teacher never said drawing is for girls, but
you might as well have. Because by praising and
understanding pictures with color detail, textured faces,
but not really getting the point of a picture that is all about
action, she is unintentionally sending the message the drawing
is for girls. The lack of awareness of gender
differences has the unintended consequence of reinforcing
gender stereotypes, because this teacher, like most teachers, has
received no formal instruction in sex differences in the kinds
of pictures that girls and boys want to draw.
She got one more boy who's decided the drawing is for
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That's Seven weeks, coffee.com. So in that scenario, you just,
you just shared, you know, the got the boys running around,
zooming around the classroom. You know, I've got 2 little very
young boys and they're zooming up until the moment of bedtime
and they're just wrestling, fighting, jumping in the beds.
I mean, they've got so much energy constantly, constantly.
And you know, I always look at other friends who have girls and
the girl has usually less energy, the little girl.
Is this a brain development thing?
Is this a biological system thing separate from the brain?
What? What is that?
I would dispute you on the facts.
My daughter was and remains huge.
She was energetic and you have girls who are very energetic
and, and my daughter absolutely at age 5 would be jumping off
the top of the couch, jumping off a 10 foot ledge onto the
floor below actually. And when I do that part of the
presentation, I show a picture of her admiring the cast, which
I applied when she jumped off the top of a nine foot jungle
jib and fell on her outstretched hand and broke her wrist.
I casted her wrist so I I don't accept your claim on the facts
that boys are energetic and girls are less.
Perhaps I. Miss Maybe I'm mislabelling it.
What it is it fair to say that very young boys versus young
girls are more interested in wrestling and, you know, a
physical? Let me physical finish my
comment about drawing because that boy was running around the
room making buzzing noises and not drawing because the teacher
had no idea how to encourage him drawing.
Margaret Paula Olafstadter overseas 17 schools across
Iceland K through 8 schools and she and her teachers know all
about sex differences in the visual system and how those
differences influence best practice in the classroom.
She sent 44 of her teachers from Iceland to Chicago, IL to attend
a 2 day workshop I hosted on this topic.
She then then sends sixty of her teachers from Iceland to
Orlando, FL to attend a 280 workshop I hosted on this topic
and then in my invitation she came to Houston to speak and
share her experience. She did a breakout session which
I attended, and she told us that in each of her 17 schools today,
since the teachers have had this training today when the teacher
says free time, you can do whatever you want.
The boy's favorite activity is drawing.
Boys love to draw. Girls love to draw.
I don't believe there's any innate difference between girls
and boys and how much they would like to sit and draw, but
there's a big difference in what they want to draw and if you
don't understand that, you end up with what We have a country
where second grade boys think drawing is for girls.
When you go to the College Board website and you look to see who
took. Among high school kids who took
the Advanced Placement exam in art history last year, girls
outnumbered boys by more than three to 1, which is ironic in
view of the fact that most of the artists they're studying are
men. The lack of awareness of gender
differences has the unedited consequence of reinforcing
gender stereotypes. If teachers don't have this
training, you end up with boys running around the room making
buzzing noise while the girls are coloring.
And again, Margaret Paula Alstotter is a great believer in
what she calls dare training. Getting girls to run around,
jump off things, walk on stones and their bare feet.
Because girls love to do that. If you encourage them, if you
understand gender differences, you can breakdown gender
stereotyes and the girls will be running U and down on on the
beach and the boys will be sitting and drawing.
So, so you think that it is a gender stereotype and not a
truth about gender that, you know, small boys versus small
girls are more interested in things like wrestling and.
Well, wrestling per SE, there is some evidence to support your
claim. OK, when you're talking
specifically about simulated combat is going to appeal to
boys, but. Or.
Yeah, using using toys as guns or energetic girls can be very
energetic and should be and. It was a bad word.
But they channel the energy in different ways.
That makes sense. So when you see a small child,
let's move from drawing to wrestling.
Or you know, using a toy as a gun as opposed to what maybe the
toy might be for. I see.
My impression has been that is usually more prevalent amongst
males. Why is that?
So indeed, and why gender matters, I share a story from my
own practice when very enlightened parents who were
determined to breakdown gender stereotypes gave their daughter
trucks for her for her 4th birthday and and she was
absolutely thrilled with the present and took them off to her
bedroom. And the parents came in a few
minutes later and the daughter said they're sleeping.
She put the trucks in bed and pulled the covers up so that
only the headlights were showing.
And the. These enlightened parents
likewise gave their son a doll which he used as a weapon and as
a projectile, but did not use the doll as it was intended to
be used. And again, these the same
behaviors have been preserved by Richard Wrangham watching
chimpanzees in the wild. The juvenile female chimpanzee
is cradling the stick and pretending it's a baby, whereas
the juvenile male chimpanzee is whacking his friend with a
stick. So the argument that these
differences are are socially constructed, while it may have
some truth, it certainly can't be the whole story because we
observe this same pattern of behavior in chimpanzees and in
juvenile monkeys. These same sex differences
observed in other species that do not construct gender in the
way that humans do. So for the boy then that's using
the toy as a projectile or as a weapon versus the girl who might
take a toy that is designed to look like a weapon, but you
know, maybe nurture it in some way.
What does that speak to in their in the sex differences
biologically? Where's the biological evidence
for why that's happening? Those different responses?
Well, I think we can say with confidence that it is
genetically programmed because it is conservative across
species. It is not a function of
testosterone. Juvenile males and females prior
to the onset of puberty don't make testosterone.
If you draw blood from a four year old, there are no sex
differences in testosterone levels comparing 4 year old boys
with four year old girls. And so these differences clearly
are to a considerable degree hardwired.
And again, I cited an astonishing study of more of
researchers looked at more than 1000 samples of human brain
tissue from dead people at every age of life, including prenatal.
So mother is in a car crash, she dies.
The baby she's carrying dies. You take the baby out of the
wound, you cut open the brain and you test the brain tissue.
That's how the study is done. And you and and the brains of
dead children and adolescents and young adults and middle-aged
adults. In the elderly, you look to see
what genes are active in brain tissue when this person has
died. You find very little sex
differences in adults in patterns of gene transcription,
but huge profound sex differences in the baby prior to
birth. The biggest differences in gene
transcription in the human brain is prior to birth.
We are born male or female. Genesis 127 in the image of God.
He created in male and female. He created them.
We are indeed born male or female with some very rare
exceptions. There is a phenomenon called
intersex where So for example, an XXXY chimera, an individual
who's a mixture of XX cells and XY cells, classically a 5050
chimera, that individual's going to have may have a ovary on one
side, testicle on the other side, their blood equal mix of
male and female hormones. So true intersex individuals,
these are exceedingly rare. Fewer than two in 10,000 humans
are intersex. Now the Biden administration,
United Nations, the New York Times, and many other sources
will claim that no, no, no intersex is as common as red
hair. The 2 and 100 humans are
intersex. That's false.
And if your listeners are interested, I would refer them
to my paper titled How Common is Intersex?
Where I show that the correct number is fewer than two and
10,000 and that the claim made by Anne Fausto Sterling at Brown
University that it's 2 and 100 is is wildly false and is based
on on, on lies. It's hard to use any other word
because she's including disorders like late onset
congenital adrenal hyperplasia, where you have men who look like
men and can father children and women who look like women and
can bear children who have this condition that causes acne.
And she claims it's intersex because they're not perfectly
male or female. Any departure from the
Aristotelian perfection in her definition makes you intersex,
which is simply psychotic. It's detached from reality.
If someone looks like a man, has XY chromosomes, is male and can
father a child, to say that no, no, no, he's not male because he
has bad acne, that's it's, well, it is.
It's a lie in pursuit of an agenda.
And Fausto Sterling wanted to assert that male and female are
not binary, that there's this big population of people who are
both male and female. And so she's lying in pursuit of
that political agenda. So and the United Nations and
the Biden administration, The New York Times follow that line
for political reasons. But in truth, fewer than two and
10,000 humans are intersex. It is a very rare anomaly,
roughly on the same order of magnitude as conjoined twins,
what we used to call Siamese twins.
We don't create a theory of personality based on Siamese
twins. We recognize that 2 heads
sharing one body is a very rare anomaly.
It is not the ground for thinking about how personality
develops because indeed Siamese twins 2 heads sharing one body.
That's a very unusual situation. Likewise intersex very rare
phenomenon. Those unfortunate individuals
certainly are deserving of care, should not be subjected to
surgery and as infants. But that's not grounds for
saying that the binary they this division of the human race into
male and female is somehow called into question, any more
than we would say that the division between day and night
is meaningless because there is such a thing as dusk and dawn
and twilight. The existence of twilight
doesn't render meaningless the division between day and night.
The existence of intersex does not render meaningless the
division between male and female.
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that are seen very troubling, you know, 1/4 to 1/3 of gen's
ears or millennials depending on the study identify as LGBTQ, you
know, whatever other numbers or plus or whatever and many of
them in that pocket. It's not just lesbian or gay
anymore, it's a lot of trans non binary.
Well, it is. There's certainly a growing
number of trans but so for the Youth Risk Behavior Survey, the
most recent iteration, this is more than 12,000 adolescents
interviewed nationwide. In a demographically
representative sample, 38% of girls said teenage girls said
they are not straight. So they're lesbian, gay,
bisexual, questioning and a few are trans, but most of them are
saying they're not straight. Now, having talked with these
girls, I can tell you that many of them are running away from
something rather than running towards something.
They are repulsed by the idea of being a straight girl, and for
good reason. Because contemporary American
popular culture, by which I mean the culture of WAP, of Cardi B,
of Megan the Stallion, of Bruno Mars and Drake, is a culture
that teaches girls that it's a girl's job to get on her knees
and give oral sex to boys at 15 years of age.
And many girls are really turned off by that.
And I can tell you about 16 year old boys demanding anal
intercourse from their 15 year old girlfriend because this
boy's been living on pornography for the last three years and he
says, yeah, women love it. No, they don't.
No one has explained to that, boys.
Those are actresses being paid to pretend that they enjoy it.
News flash, most girls don't enjoy anal intercourse.
Or as one teenage girl said to her boyfriend when he proposed
anal intercourse, she said, yeah, how about if we try
shoving something hard up your behind?
See how you like it. But again, many parents are
clueless. They don't realize that their
son has a smartphone. At 13 years of age, he has
unlimited access to pornography. He doesn't need a credit card.
He just needs to say that he's 18 and he can access anything.
And this is a real problem. And we have, look, almost every
culture of which we have any knowledge has taken male, female
relations seriously and has limited and governed and guided
how girls and boys get together. We no longer do that, and the
result is a culture of boys who have learned about sex from porn
videos at 16 years of age, expecting the girl to get on her
knees and give oral sex to the boys.
And the girls are getting tired of it.
And that, in my judgement as a family doctor, is the primary
factor driving this explosion in the proportion of young girls
who say I'm not straight or as one, A young woman said to me,
She said I don't care if I never see another penis as long as I
live. I'm sick of it.
We have lost any clue as to how
to teach boys to be gentlemen, how to teach girls and boys to
engage in romance rather than hooking up.
Hooking up is the opposite of romance, and the result is a
growing proportion, 38% of girls who say I'm not sure what I am,
but I'm not a straight girl because I don't want to do it.
Do you see that? I'm not sure what I am, but I'm
not a straight girl. A journey of I don't know that
it becomes pathologized to the point where she all of a sudden
so hates being a woman, having a woman's body that she considers
or she thinks she may be trans. And then I mean I I just see
the. Anecdotes so if you if.
You're just hating their. Body, Google my name and WAP.
Are we allowed to say what WAP stands for?
I mean, I think the audience is. Familiar with this?
WAP was a hugely popular video starring Cardi B and Megan Thee
Stallion, as as well as a cameo by Kylie Jenner.
It stands for Wet Ass Pussy, where these two women sing that
they want to be tied up, they want to choke on a man's penis.
And this video not only was #1 most popular video in the United
States broke all kinds of records for downloads,
93,000,000 downloads in one week, but was also praised in
the New York Times, in the Wall Street Journal as empowering
women. And this is so great that women
are now telling us what they want.
Well, what's a girl supposed to think when she sees that the
most popular video in the country is a girl is 2 young
women saying how they want to choke on a man's cock.
They want to be tied up handcuffs.
It's basically. Girls, some girls are saying
yuck, that is not me. But hey, the New York Times,
Teen Vogue, and the Wall Street Journal all say this is great.
Well, you know what? Maybe I'm not a girl then,
because this is not me. Maybe I'm something else.
Maybe I'm a boy because certainly the idea of being tied
up and choking on a man's cock doesn't appeal to me.
But according to the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal
on Teen Vogue, it should. So, you know, forget that.
Have you seen a connection between a rejection of basically
the sexual objectification pornification that girls are
experiencing? In addition, add on the fact
that after puberty and just generally speaking, you have
body image issues where girls don't like their bodies
generally speaking anyways, or they're overweight, or they
struggle with just body acceptance.
And so you have this lethal combo of the sexualization piece
where they're rejecting that they don't want to be seen that
way. And then they also are
uncomfortable in their bodies. And so does that create a?
Could that create a perfect storm for saying, well, I'm just
going to. I don't know.
You're sounding. You're sounding awfully, 2007.
Oh, really? Yeah.
Because what? Happened in 2000 and.
Seven, well, 15 years ago, 16 years ago, 20 years ago, you
could make a plausible case that hey, magazines, there used to be
magazines back then like Teen Vogue and Cosmo Girl that
depicted these slender models. And you would go to the
department store, go to Target and you'd see big posters of
slender models. That's very 2007.
You go to Target now and you see a lot of fat women as the
models. And that is by design and body
body positivity. I think that's what I'm probing
out here because I agree with you.
It's not like be fat. You're going to be, you're going
to be happy and great. But do you think they're
actually happy and great? It varies.
Everyone is different. I have met slender girls who are
miserable and I've met fat girls who are happy.
So I am not persuaded by your implied claim that girls who are
not slender today uniformly torture themselves.
There are certainly some who do without it to be.
Clear, it's not just girls that are not slender, it's generally
girls that struggle with, you know, eating disorders is sort
of a, you know, you, you'd say you have an eating disorder, but
they struggle with body image and they could be very skinny,
they could be very fat, but they are not happy with their bodies.
Yeah. But I, I don't think that's new.
I think that I don't think that's new.
I think that's certainly been with us for at least.
The last I, I guess what I'm saying, when I was a girl, you
know, and struggling, you know, I struggled with body image
issues. I had a, an eating, you know,
disordered eating at one point. A lot of other girls in you had
that today's average girl. We still have tons of eating
disorders today. But now you have this additional
option if you're struggling with your body and with food of
exploring being trans as a way to deal with your not, not body
dysmorphia, but your actual body.
You know, you know, your your anorexia or your bulimia.
Yeah. So your question we're grappling
with is why this explosion and the number of young women who
say they're men, the number of teenage girls who say they're
boys? And yeah, I, I, I think that you
have proposed a reasonable hypothesis, namely that one of
many factors driving this is that this is now an option for
that girl who's unhappy with her body, that, hey, if I was a boy,
it wouldn't, it wouldn't matter. We did.
We have something pretty ancient in our civilization that says
that how you look is really important if you're a girl and
not important if you're a boy, or much, much, much less
important. And that is not at all new.
So when I talk to students or teachers about this topic, I
often cite The Lord of the Rings.
So the Lord of the Rings has only a few female characters.
The books, not the movies. The The books have only a few
female characters who have names, and they're all described
as staggeringly beautiful. Ewan is amazingly beautiful.
Arwen's amazing, amazingly beauty beautiful.
The Lady of Le Florian is amazingly beautiful.
There are other women, but they are unmentioned.
The only women who are mentioned are amazing, beautiful.
Well, the heroes of the story, Frodo and Sam, aren't
attractive. They're not big.
They're not strong. Frodo, Sam, Pippin, Mary.
Males aren't anything at all special to look at.
One of the unintended messages of The Lord of the Rings is that
if you're a man, it doesn't matter what you look like, but
if you're a woman, it's essential that you be beautiful.
If you're not beautiful, you're nobody.
Literally. There is no named character.
You don't. Even make a you don't even get a
name, so that's nothing new. OK, Tolkien wrote those books in
the 1940s, so we have a long history in Western civilization
of prioritizing looks for girls and for boys.
It's who you are for girls, it's how you look.
There's nothing new about that, unfortunately.
Where does that come from? Oh my goodness, that's that's
very ancient. Now I am not an anthropologist,
but I have consulted with real anthropologist who have found
something similar in other cultures, Not necessarily in all
other cultures, but in many other cultures.
So certainly there's something about our species that
prioritizes looks for girls and women and achievement for boys
and men. So for boys and men it's
important to do and for girls and women it's more important to
look good. And that is immensely toxic for
girls and women and we. But that, that is not new is my
point. That is, there's nothing new
about that. You have suggested that maybe
that's part of what's driving girls to be trans.
And I've pushed back a bit because the trans thing is very
new. It's really new. 20 years ago
when I wrote the 1st edition of Why Gender Matters, there's like
2 sentences on transgender. 30 years ago, just 30 years ago,
the American Psychiatric Association estimated the
prevalence of transgender. They said it's so rare it's hard
to say, but we think it's one in 30,000 men and fewer than one in
100,000 women. That was the American
Psychiatric Association exactly 30 years ago, 1994.
And now we've got, you know, easily 4% of teenage girls in
this country saying they're trans.
Well, I. 19% of teenage girls. 4% of teenage girls say they're
trans, 38% of teenage girls say they're not straight.
So going from basically zero to 4% in, in 20 years, it's hard
for me to to say, Oh yeah, that's, that's because of the
toxic effects of body positivity, because we've had a
toxic culture with regard to body positivity.
What would be the toxic effects of body idol worship?
I mean, when it comes to appearance, well.
And I think there's some there are other factors driving this
explosion in, in the trans identification for.
Girls, what would you say those are?
All right, so how much time do how much time?
Do Yeah, we'll go. We'll go.
At least we'll go 10 more. All right, so the 1st edition of
my book, Why Gender Matters, had almost nothing on trans.
The second edition has 12 chapters, the last four of which
are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex.
And I dive deeply into this question of why?
Why this explosion and the proportion of kids who say
they're trans? Almost every culture of which we
have substantial knowledge has taught girls to be women, has
taught boys to be men. What does that mean?
Well, it actually means something different in each
culture. And in the Japan of the Tokugawa
Shogun 816 O3, it meant something very different than it
means for us today are. There core through lines though
for for all. Well, one example I give is the
meticulous preparation and serving of tea in 16 O 3 in
Japan was exclusively the province of men.
Women were not even permitted to attend tea ceremony and and
making it look good and doing it just right was taught by men two
boys. Now in our culture in 21st
century America, meticulous care and the preparation of serving
in tea we would tend to think is more of a feminine trait than a
masculine trait. How cultures construct
masculinity and femininity does vary quite a bit from one
culture to another, with a few exceptions.
So training in the skills required to kill other humans is
exclusively male in essentially every culture of which we have
any knowledge. There are only mythological
exceptions like the Amazons. So training humans to kill other
humans is almost exclusively male.
But almost every other domain you look at, whether it's
cooking or clothing, you can find a culture where men
dominate and where those are masculine occupations.
But to don't to interrupt here, but I want to interrupt here
because childbearing is an exclusively female domain.
Obviously men can be very involved with children and they
should be, I believe. But childbearing is exclusively
female. So you say them what's across,
you know, across cultures, across time for men, it's being
trained to kill for women. Can you?
Is it fair to say being trained to basic?
Training on the question we're trying to figure out is what's
driving the explosion of trans and one of the one of several
answers. It's not just one answer, but
one of several answers I give in those final four chapters of Why
Gender Matters is We no longer teach girls to be women and boys
to be men. And so I'm asking what does it
mean through? It means you have a community of
men for for boys and a community of women for girls.
So Robert Putnam at Harvard spent decades leading an army of
graduate students across the United States, documenting that
50 years ago you had a community of women for girls.
Well, how, how does he document that?
Well, he goes to Lake Forest, IL and, and bowling.
Bowling used to be a lot more popular in the United States.
But more importantly, from Doctor Putnam's perspective,
most of the bowling 50 years ago was in bowling leagues.
And Tuesday night might be the women's night.
And Thursday night was the men's night.
And he and his students dig up. All right, who was in the
bowling league in Lake Forest, IL in 1970?
Well, let's see. On this team there was a 53 year
old woman, a 37 year old woman, a 26 year old woman, a 17 year
old girl, and a 12 year old girl.
People in the United States still go bowling, but they go
bowling alone. To borrow the title of Doctor
Putnam's best known book, meaning not literally alone, but
instead of this 17 year old girl going bowling with a community
of women, she going bowling with a bunch of 17 year olds, girls
and boys mixed together. Which as far as Doctor Putnam is
concerned, is bowling alone. When Doctor Putnam uses the term
community, he means bonds across generations, and the bonds
across generations have been broken.
We used to have a community of women for girls.
We used to have a community of men for boys.
We don't anymore. We set kids adrift in the
culture of Instagram and TikTok to figure out for themselves
what they're supposed to be. And the result is they are
confused. And that confusion, I assert, is
one of several factors driving this explosion in girls who say
they're boys and boys who say they're girls.
It's so fascinating. What is so powerful about
intergenerational community? Oh my gosh, that is core to the
human experience. So look, what is childhood for?
Literally what is childhood for? A four year old horse is a
mature adult. The Kentucky Derby has raced
with three-year olds. A four year old human is barely
begun humans or children or adolescents for more years than
most animals live. It can't just be about
biological maturation because a four year old horse is a mature
adult and it's a bigger animal than a human.
So why? Why humans are developing
Children are adolescents for more years than most animals
live. Why?
We don't have to guess. We have scholars like Doctor
Melvin Counter at Emory who wrote this 800 page monograph
published by Oxford University Press titled The Evolution of
Childhood, comparing development at our species with development
and other species, especially other primates.
And the answers the scholars give is that human development
takes as long as it does because it takes many years for the
grown-ups to teach the grown up culture to the children.
That's what makes us unique as a species.
That's what's programmed in our DNA.
So on the next page of my book, The Collapse of Parenting, where
I present this research, I say a column by Jennifer Finney
Boylan, a long time columnist for the New York Times, and she
wrote about enlightened parenting.
And in her column she says that enlightened parenting means
setting your child free to discover for themselves their
own right and wrong. And if in so doing your child
becomes a stranger to you, then so be it.
Quote UN quote. That might sound enlightened to
some, but it's not enlightened. If you set your child free to
discover that for themselves, their own right and wrong, and
then they have a device with Internet access, what they will
discover is Cardi B, WAP, Megan Thee Stallion, Drake, mainstream
pornography, and confusion about gender.
That New York Times advice to set your child free to discover
their for themselves, their own right and wrong is not only an
abdication of parental responsibility, it is profoundly
unhuman. It's not what we are programmed
to do. It's not what's in our DNA.
It's not why human development takes as long as it does.
Human development takes as long as it does because we're
supposed to have strong bonds across generations for the
grown-ups to teach the kids. And almost every enduring
culture, every enduring culture, every culture that lasts has
those bonds. And I say that having consulted
with the comparative anthropologist in my, which I
did for my book, Boys Adrift, and they will tell you that
every culture that lasts is characterized by strong bonds
across generations. A community of men for boys, a
community of women for girls. We used to do that.
As recently as 50 years ago, we had the sewing circles again.
Doctor Putnam and his colleagues document OK the sewing circle in
Shaker Eyes, Ohio, organized not by kin relation but by
geographic proximity, which is a fancy way of saying that the
girls and women in that sewing circle weren't related to each
other, they just happened to live on the same block.
There were innumerable mechanisms as recently as 50
years ago in the United States to have bonds across
generations, women with girls, men with boys.
Doctor Putnam's got pictures of guys working under the hood of a
of a car 50 years ago, and he and his students figure out who
are the men and boys in those photograph.
Whether we're older men, younger men and boys.
You go out today and drive around on Saturday afternoon,
you just might see 2 old geezers working to the hood of their 65
Corvette. But the boys are not with them.
The bonds across generations have been broken as a result.
We have a lot of confused boys, a lot of confused girls who have
no idea what it means to be a man because we no longer have a
community of men for boys, a community of women for girls.
When I speak to churches, I talk.
I share what I have learned visiting churches across this
country. A few churches still get it that
so. So I I show a flyer from a
church youth group, come to the pizza party and hang out and
have fun. That's not what kids need.
What a girl needs to become a woman of faith is different from
what a boy needs to become a man of faith.
Boys need a community of men. Girls need a community of women.
Now, I am not a fan of the Mormon religion, which I regard
as very bizarre, but they get this every Sunday in the Mormon
church. The girls go with the women, the
boys go with the men, and the Mormon church is thriving.
And I think a big reason it's thriving is because they get
this. Most churches in the United
States, Catholic and Protestant, do not get this.
And as a result, many of those congregations are dwindling.
There's a lot of fear, I think from, you know, whether it's
Gen. X to the Gen.
Z or, or it's the boomer to the millennial of, you know, not of
misunderstandings or wounds from how the person was raised.
And now they're not at peace with their parents.
So there's just a lot of division amongst the generations
that I think isn't beyond just there's not good social.
Well, it's hard wired and girls need a community of women and
boys need a community of men. And I always welcome the
opportunity to speak to churches because they are uniquely well
situated to create those communities.
And I share examples of how other churches have done it and
are doing it. So what I'm, what I'm, what I'm
going here with is there is perhaps fueling some of the
disintegration of the generations.
There's this generational divide where people look down on their
parents. You know, I think it's become
more in vogue for people to not want to talk to my parents
because of the way they hurt me or because of our differences.
And people are more drawn to their peer group.
Is this something that you're seeing as well?
Well. Sure.
And that's, that's of course a main phenomenon driving my book
The Collapse of Parenting, which is not just documenting the the
collapse of parenting, but the main point of the book is to
give parents some concrete pointers to prioritize the
family, to recreate those strong bonds across generations.
Do you think that the school structure today, the 8 sometimes
hours you're with a peer group, you're not with your family,
Then you go hang out and do sports with your peer group.
Then on the weekends you're hanging with your peer group.
There's just less physical time kids are spending with extended
family with. No, I don't buy that the the
structure of the school day is not radically different today
than it was 40 years ago. But parenting has collapsed over
the last 40 years, so I do not blame it on the organization of
the school day. I blame it on American popular
culture. More if I have to blame it on
anything. But 100 years ago, the school
room was a mixed age group, right?
100 yeah, if you go back more than 100 years ago when very few
Americans, the majority of Americans did not go to high
school. But, but I don't think that's a
useful lesson for us. The the structure of the school
day, again, has not changed radically in the last 40 years,
but there has been a collapse of parenting over the last 20 years
actually. And that's the focus of my book
Collapse of Parenting. So, so much more we could talk
about. I have one more question and
might lead to a little secondary question, but I've so much of
what you're saying begs this question for me and it's kind of
what we were discussing earlier. What are the differences between
men and women culturally that that have cultural
ramifications? So what I mean by that is you
said, you know, in this Japanese culture, the men were the ones
serving the tea. And you see all these different
activities that might be stereotypically male or female,
but they will flip based on the culture or the time.
They'll change. I don't know that I'm not
comfortable with the word. Maybe they won't flip.
They change. Every culture constructs
masculinity and femininity differently.
But you named one thing that is set across cultures and times
for men, which is to kill, to be trained, to protect.
Really. Let's say in killing other
humans is predominantly male in every culture of which we have
substantial knowledge. That's not mythological.
And what would be that activity or the activities that are
across time and cultures for women?
Bearing and nurturing very young children.
So I, when I think about the gender differences and there's a
lot of, you know, arguments and Tradcon, left Wing, Red Pill,
all of these different ideas about what it means to be a man,
what it means to be a woman. Is it fair to boil it down?
And you look at the trappings and of what culture kind of
builds up around being a man or woman?
You boil it down though, Women can bear children, very young
children men can't, and then then can protect the whole
project of the woman bearing a child.
What do you think of that? No, I'm not comfortable with it.
So again, one of the points I make in why not why gender
matters is that 50 years ago, the early gender theorists, I
believe that gender was on a continuum.
You could be very masculine, you could be very feminine.
It was a single one-dimensional continuum.
And if you were more masculine than you were necessarily less
feminine. That turns out simply not to be
accurate. Gender is 2 dimensional.
You can be masculine or not. You can be feminine or not.
You can be both, which is androgynous.
You can be neither, which is undifferentiated.
So gender is A2 dimensional space and part of becoming a an
adult who's comfortable in your own skin is figuring out where
you belong on that two-dimensional space.
So for example, I've been married for 34 years.
In my marriage, I do all the grocery shopping because my wife
hates to shop for groceries. She hates to make supper.
She loves it when I make supper. Or we neither of us make supper
and we make some other arrangement.
She doesn't like to cook, she doesn't like to shop.
She mows the lawn, she fixes the lawn tractor, which I would have
no idea how to do. But I'm a straight man.
She's a straight woman. We're comfortable as men and
women. We may be a little gender
atypical in that I love to shop for groceries.
I love ballet. She doesn't really care for
ballet and she'd rather mow the lawn, and that's fine to be.
Clear, Mike, what I was saying earlier is actually agreeing
with what you just said, that we overemphasize these
traditionally feminine versus masculine activities when we get
away from the core that matters, which is that the through line
for men is this protect thing, this I, you know, train for war
thing. And the through line for women
is they can only bear the children.
Those are really the fundamental differences that matter if we're
going to talk about gender. Well, I think one place that
we're failing is failing to teach girls and boys that then
the division of the human race into male and female is real.
It's not a social construct. But it's real to what end?
It's real to the procreative end.
It's real again tomorrow night at Jay Sarah, I'm going to go
over these differences with the parents.
It's it's real in the sense that.
You can book Doctor Saks on his. Website see differently, they
hear differently. They differ profoundly in how
they detect odors. For many odors, a girl, a woman
has a sense of smell that's 100,000 times more sensible than
a sensitive than a boy or man. So a man and woman walk into a
room and the woman says, Oh my gosh, it stinks, I'm going to
throw up. And the man says I don't smell
anything. And they don't understand each
other because the woman's like, what do you mean you don't smell
anything? And he says I don't smell
anything because no one has explained to them that gender
matters. These these differences are
real. I'll try one more time to see if
I, if we may align here at all, where with my current working
theory, which is that the, all of these differences that we're
talking about, that we've talked about today, let's say many of
them, you know, I'm not going to say every single one, but many
of them are connected back to when you go way back to the
biological difference between a man and a woman, that men father
and women mother. And the, the way that those
things happen fundamentally are different.
And so many of these other traits are connected back to
empowering the mother to mother well and the father to father
well, fair or not fair. Evolutionary biologists are
struggling to understand why these differences make sense.
Why would it confer evolutionary advantage for the man to smell
less? Well, there is no consensus
right now among the scholars as to why these differences have
evolved. And in the absence of that
consensus, I cannot endorse your conjecture.
It's it's a conjecture, but it's not it when I speak to parents,
it's evidence based parenting. And look, we may not be able to
say with certainty why these differences are there, but I
think it's very important for parents to know about the
differences because the woman is saying to your son, how can you
stand it in your bedroom? It stinks.
And the son says, I'll smell a little bit.
And and mom thinks her son is being defined and disrespectful.
He's not, of course. He really doesn't smell anything
mom needs. Going back to the original
example, the girl wants to play with a doll, The girl put her
trucks into a bed to sleep. And the boy wants to, you know,
he's tactile, he's movement. He, he, he's, he's conflict.
He wants to move things and shake things up, right?
Isn't it fair? You don't need an evolutionary
biologist to tell you that The girl's instinct to want to
nurture the doll and to notice the details of the doll and to
nurture the truck and the boy's instinct to, you know, prepare
himself basically for the conflict of all these activities
that he can design with them. Is connected.
Can connect back very, very directly over time to the girl's
ability to mother and need to mother a tiny, tiny little
infant, and the boys perhaps a relationship to want to protect
or create structures to support that activity that's so
fundamental to the future of the human race.
OK. Is it fair?
It's fair. OK, well, we'll have to revisit
this, but thank you, Doctor Saxon for for joining the
podcast. It's awesome.
Thank you. Thanks for listening to this
episode of the Lila Rose Podcast.
Check out Doctor Leonard Sachs's work and his book at the link in
the bio. I hope you enjoyed it.
And as always, don't forget. You can e-mail me or you can
message us. We love hearing from you guys on
the show. My e-mail is lila@gtbmedia.com.
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We'll see you next time.