1 00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:03,400 Hi there. My name is dr. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,600 Presenta, and I'm the host of the doctor nurse podcast. 3 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:09,000 I'm an advanced nurse practitioner and I want to be 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,700 your guide into the world of nursing professions. 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,500 This podcast is a platform for nurses to share their Journeys 6 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:18,700 as they made their way in the diverse field of nursing as 7 00:00:18,700 --> 00:00:22,800 either entrepreneurs, Academia private, practice or even the 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,700 corporate world. I think we should celebrate just 9 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:28,800 how diverse the field of nursing is through mentoring one. 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,400 Another, with the stories of our career. 11 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,000 Journeys. Nothing is too mundane because 12 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:36,600 each journey is unique. This podcast will showcase 13 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,900 career options to encourage nurses to view their degrees 14 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:43,000 with a business mindset. After all we work in the 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,000 healthcare business and ultimately I hope I might 16 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,500 inspire you to make a change. If you're looking for something 17 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:52,000 different, I am motivated to see you live, your best, nursing 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,500 life and that looks different for everyone. 19 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,900 Thanks for joining me on today's podcast. 20 00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:58,800 And let's get started with today's guests. 21 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:03,900 Hey guys. This week on the doctor nurse 22 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:06,600 podcast. I have the privilege of chatting 23 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,800 with dr. Joe Neal she is a RN MBA PhD who 24 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,800 has taken her bullying experience as a nurse and made 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,700 it her passion to combat against in her career. 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,000 Her expertise practical tools and strategies include the 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,300 meanness Matrix and tips to help you compatible. 28 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:33,600 Pat your job. She is a nationally recognized 29 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,900 speaker teacher certified facilitator and Coach. 30 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:42,100 Take a listen, she describes her journey to the headmistress of 31 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,600 the school of bully ology. Hi dr. 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,100 Joe Neal thank you so much for coming on the doctor nurse 33 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:50,900 podcast today. So happy to have you on from the 34 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:54,200 great state of Michigan. I'm tickled to be here. 35 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,200 Let's Dive Right In. Tell us about your current role. 36 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:00,000 / job title. What are you? 37 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:02,500 For a living. Well, for a living. 38 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:07,900 I am currently the headmistress of the school of bully ology and 39 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:11,800 I actually have a company doctor, Joe Neal.com, but I have 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,800 transitioned into actually opening a school for nurses for 41 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,000 other people who have been impacted by the effects of 42 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,600 bullying. I not only work with 43 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,900 individuals, I also work with organizations. 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,100 So that's what I'm up to, right this exact minute. 45 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:29,000 So, how did you get to this spot right here in your career? 46 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,300 Take us through your ear. Senior Journey. 47 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:34,800 Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I am actually a diploma of 48 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,800 nursing graduate way back in the late 70s when it was, we had 49 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,900 three year school two year schools through your schools for 50 00:02:40,900 --> 00:02:43,600 your school's. I was a graduate of a diploma 51 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,500 program. I eventually went back and got 52 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:47,200 my Bachelors of Science in nursing. 53 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:49,300 I have an MBA and I have a doctoral degree in 54 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:52,000 organizational leadership. But in terms of my clinical 55 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,700 practice, I started my original practice in the in the emergency 56 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:57,800 room. I found out early on that, I was 57 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,600 not gifted for bedside nursing and Luckily and I think all of 58 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,700 us need to recognize where were gifted for. 59 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:06,900 And we're we're not I went to the emergency room because it 60 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:09,600 was high paced and I'm kind of an adrenaline junkie. 61 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,200 I worked in the emergency room and I tell the story it was 62 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,300 before the days of hcahps when I told the patient to get his 63 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:17,600 blankety-blank blood on the blankety-blank stretcher and I 64 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,600 do something's wrong here, I might need to change. 65 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,400 So I love there. Let me just say going back to 66 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,700 the bullying topic. I was never bullied in the 67 00:03:24,708 --> 00:03:26,500 operating room. I was very confident. 68 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:30,400 I had been a student nurse in that area and I was right out of 69 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:32,300 High School, people go, you don't go to the emergency room 70 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:35,400 but I had my mojo in the emergency room, so I transferred 71 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,300 to the operating room and all of a sudden, I had no Mojo. 72 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:41,400 I was brand new. I was bottom of the the food 73 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,600 chain and actually the operating room that I went to work in 74 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,500 there was actually 12 different services and you had to rotate 75 00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:49,800 through every service and I was learning as I went. 76 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,600 But there's a lot of stuff to learn machines and doctors and 77 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,900 procedures. And all of that. 78 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,600 I was toward the end of my orientation, and I was orienting 79 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,300 in the vascular service, and it got to the place. 80 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,100 Place where my preceptor was actually scrubbed in the case 81 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:06,500 and I was circulating we were doing an aortic, aneurysm the 82 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:10,200 kind before vascular when you're open from nipples To Nuts kind 83 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,800 of a thing and the patient filleted wide open. 84 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:15,600 The surgeon was the chief of vascular surgery, I'm trying to 85 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,700 set up the Dynamics here, that's good. 86 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,399 This interaction eating of picture, getting to a place in 87 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,500 my preceptor looks to me and says, I need you to go get this 88 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:25,800 retractor blade. It was a specific one and I know 89 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,900 what she was looking for, but I went all the places it should 90 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:31,900 have been and it was no. To be found and I'm calling 91 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:34,300 central processing, and I'm sweating and I'm painting and 92 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:37,200 I'm like, grabbing strangers in the hallway or the operating 93 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,400 room. Where is this? 94 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,200 Retractor and I eventually went back into the room. 95 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,200 Now, he combined the longer, the patient stays on the operating 96 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,500 room table, The increased morbidity and mortality. 97 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:50,600 So I'm out of the room for about 12 to 13 minutes. 98 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,400 I come back. I stand at the foot of the 99 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,400 table, I'm a sweaty mess. I look up and I say to my 100 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,200 preceptor, I'm so sorry. I couldn't find it. 101 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,900 She turns to The Physician pets. Him lovingly on the hand and 102 00:05:01,900 --> 00:05:04,000 says it's okay. She doesn't know anything. 103 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,600 She's brand-new and I stood there and like Not only was I 104 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,500 thrown under the bus, I was run over by the bus and so my 105 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:14,500 credibility for that surgeon was diminished. 106 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:17,500 Now here's the end of the story. We finish the case. 107 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:18,900 It's one of those ones. Are you tell yourself? 108 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:20,200 Don't cry. Don't cry, don't cry. 109 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,700 Don't cry. We finish the case I go out, I 110 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:24,200 take the patient to the recovery room. 111 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,000 The manager for central processing comes upstairs and 112 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,500 goes to me, she goes, don't heal the person. 113 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,900 She knew that Retractor blade was out for repair. 114 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:35,400 You are kidding me, can't make it up. 115 00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:38,800 I can't make it up. No, so not only did she hook me 116 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,900 a trip. She put that patient at risk and 117 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,800 that risk old lady, so that she could look special in front of 118 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,200 the chiefest of that survey. And she was the queen of the 119 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,800 service. We all have those Queens. 120 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:50,300 What is it? Like the Mean Girls? 121 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,400 I would say. So everybody wants to be their 122 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,000 friend but I like so yes that was the first time I can 123 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,200 remember really and truthfully having this nurse to nurse 124 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,300 bullying but I knew from that point on, that was going to be 125 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:05,400 something that I was aware of. Now, again, there's things in 126 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,700 our profession and again, I graduated in the late 70s and 127 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:10,500 even in the late 70s. Now, keep up. 128 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:12,900 Remember, how long ago we're talking about? 129 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,900 Our teacher said, nurses eat their young. 130 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:19,400 Now this is in the late 70s. We are in 2020 and God dang it. 131 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,600 It's still going on. Why patter is fixed it. 132 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:25,900 So I knew from that point, that was something that I was going 133 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:29,500 to be a bully seem to come up in my life in other areas. 134 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,800 And I got stronger, but it seems like every time I got stronger 135 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,100 for one level of bullying. I got bullied by somebody else, 136 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:39,200 and I are position. It's like, what Joyce Meyer, 137 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,000 says, new level through devil. And so I was constantly aware of 138 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,200 it and constantly growing, I will say that I was impacted by 139 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,700 the consequences of bullying. And I think, let me just pause 140 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:54,300 for a second and say, bullying affects our mind, our body, and 141 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:56,800 our spirit. Now, it affects our mind where 142 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,100 we start to lose confidence in ourselves. 143 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,300 It's like we start questioning Earning our ability. 144 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,700 And a lot of the folks that I've interviewed who have been 145 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:06,200 bullied as nurses are really super stars. 146 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,500 They're very, very good. But they've got an Achilles heel 147 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,400 and somehow that pulley just goes for the Carotid kind of a 148 00:07:12,407 --> 00:07:14,600 thing. I'm gonna get you and so our 149 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,900 self-esteem starts to we start questioning ourselves, we know 150 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:21,000 very well what the physical consequences of bullying? 151 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,100 We eat too much. We smoke too much, we get 152 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:26,700 diarrhea. We have our bodies are like it 153 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:31,000 takes an impact on that but most of all it takes are We start to 154 00:07:31,008 --> 00:07:33,900 lose hope. Now, the most extreme cases that 155 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:36,300 I've talked with folks are people who actually committed 156 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:39,500 suicide because of that bullying, so if we wait. 157 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,300 So there are nurses that you've heard of that, have killed 158 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:45,100 themselves because of the bullying that was going on their 159 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:49,000 floors or in their communities. Yes, I'm aware of six that I can 160 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,900 name their names and that's the thing that should take. 161 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:53,500 That should take everyone's breath away. 162 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,800 It's like a punch to the guy dr. Daniel, one of the things that 163 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,500 I've as if kind of described her story and you've got to this 164 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:03,700 point, And you're standing there in the operating room and you're 165 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:07,300 being embarrassed, you're being belittled like what is one of 166 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:10,500 the things that through your education you were able to 167 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:13,900 develop to kind of help nurses through that process? 168 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:17,600 Well this has been a journey it and every place I grabbed a 169 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,900 little bit more knowledge, what I want everyone to understand is 170 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:25,400 that the main goal is not to let those people under your skin. 171 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,200 And that is so hard to do. Let me just go on record. 172 00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:31,500 And if any of you are Juan division, It's like building 173 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:34,600 your hex around you. I did my doctoral dissertation 174 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,100 on bullying in the operating room and so this isn't anything 175 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:39,799 that I just left that day at the foot of the or table. 176 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,200 I continued on with this, I do want to also say not only are 177 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,900 nurses impacted by bullying, but there is a direct correlation to 178 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:49,600 a nurse being bullied and a patient outcome, which we can 179 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,900 touch base in a couple minutes, but one of the things kind of 180 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:55,300 came to me, sort of like synthesis of all this 181 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:57,200 information is, I created a tool. 182 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,200 It's called the meanness Matrix and it's a three by three grid. 183 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:04,200 Rid and along the bottom is a delineation of what kind of a 184 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,400 person am I actually dealing with, am I dealing with a person 185 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,400 who's route and again those people are unintentional. 186 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,100 They don't wake up in the morning and say I'm going to 187 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:15,300 aggravate so-and-so's life. And moving to the right there, 188 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,400 there are people that are true. Bullies and a bully is someone 189 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:23,300 who has real or perceived power over you and chooses to use 190 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:25,700 that. And a narcissist, or someone who 191 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:29,700 has narcissistic personality, Tendencies is someone who really 192 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,100 The capacity to have empathy or care for anyone else and that's 193 00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:36,900 a pathologic condition and we know some folks like that. 194 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,500 Now, when once we identify, what kind of a person were looking 195 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:42,900 at? We go up the vertical axis and 196 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:45,100 at the bottom are people that don't matter. 197 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,400 Now, again, they don't matter to me, they matter to Jesus. 198 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,300 They just don't matter to me. And then you go up the chain and 199 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:52,600 then you have people who matter a bit. 200 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,800 And these are people that you have tangential relationships 201 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:56,900 with. It could be your next door, 202 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,200 neighbor, whose dog is barking? It could be your kids teacher. 203 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,200 It could be a distant relative, these are folks that kind of 204 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,700 come in and out of your life but they don't necessarily impact 205 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:10,100 direct some directly, but not as much but the key part are the 206 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:13,500 people who really have influence on your life, your spouse, your 207 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:16,100 parents. Now, your manager or leader, can 208 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:19,300 either be matters a lot or matters a little bit, but then 209 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:22,200 when you figure out what kind of a person am I dealing with, 210 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,600 where do they fall in this degree of influence? 211 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:28,900 You can find yourself in a grid that has a strategy for each one 212 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:31,800 of those techniques. But the main part I want 213 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,900 everyone to get their minds around is I want you to 214 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,500 recognize. You have to build your force 215 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:40,200 field or your hex or whatever you want to call it. 216 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,700 And don't let them get through. Because once they get the past 217 00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:46,500 your wall of protection, or your boundary, or whatever you want 218 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:49,500 to call it, then those consequences of bullying, start 219 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:51,600 to impact. Now I'm going to go on record as 220 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,900 saying it's hard as heck to do this, but Step One is having an 221 00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:59,900 awareness of what's going on. And one of the things that's on 222 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:02,000 the mean, This Matrix. And again, I'll make sure that I 223 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,300 send you a copy and you can share it with your listeners. 224 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:09,000 Step one or one of the key strategies, never believe, what 225 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,100 the bully said, never believe it, because they're trying to 226 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,900 influence you, in a way again, sucks the life out of use, makes 227 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:18,100 you start questioning yourself, all of that. 228 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,700 So then they somehow feel better because you feel worse. 229 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,000 And so, the less and and there are times that you have to 230 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,400 directly interact with them. But the one thing I'm going to 231 00:11:27,408 --> 00:11:30,200 say about us for nursing and I have another tool that I'm also 232 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,300 Going to share with you is, we need to start taking some 233 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:37,300 emotion out of it and we, as nurses as women are pretty much. 234 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,000 I lead with my emotion. You can tell where I'm at but in 235 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,200 this instance, I've had to get to where I can explain this, non 236 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,600 emotionally, and this tool, it's how to chart bullying. 237 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:52,500 So your voice will be heard. And the key aspect of this is 238 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:55,200 don't go into your manager saying, oh my God, they were so 239 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,000 mean to me and they made me cry and then your manners are going 240 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,600 to go. Oh, okay. 241 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,700 Because then it becomes Has your word against their word. 242 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:05,100 And again, I've been a nurse manager director of, nursing all 243 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:06,400 of the above. Another thing. 244 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,800 Please do not slip, a note under your managers door that says, 245 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,600 so. And so was awful and don't sign 246 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:12,500 it. Because guess what? 247 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:14,300 She throws that right into the wastebasket. 248 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,100 I'm sure of it. So if you can say, here's the 249 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:19,600 date. Here's the time. 250 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,400 Here's where this happened. Here's what was said. 251 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:25,800 Now this again is use the exact words. 252 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,200 You can add a little bit after you say she or he set this, 253 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,800 this, this this Here's who heard it. 254 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,100 Here's the staff. Here's the patient. 255 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:37,600 Hears, the impact on me. Here's the impact on our unit. 256 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,200 And here's the impact on our organization and I'll give an 257 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,600 example of that. Is that say? 258 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:45,400 You got so distraught that you couldn't get your work done. 259 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,000 And so you ended up staying an hour-and-a-half overtime. 260 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,900 Figure out the cost of an hour and a half over time, and that 261 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:53,300 was the impact on the organization they had to pay 262 00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:55,900 over time because you got bullied and it's hard to make 263 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,600 that correlation. But if you can get to that but 264 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,200 that will get your managers. Attend that one. 265 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,400 And that's what I want you to kind of get your minds around. 266 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,400 That can't just go, I could have said, oh my God, my preceptor 267 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,600 was so awful, she made me look bad instead. 268 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,200 I said she sent me for a retractor that was out for 269 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:12,900 repair. The patient stayed on the 270 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:16,300 operating room, 15 minutes longer therefore increasing 271 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:21,700 their morbidity, mortality by X percent and or time is $110 per 272 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,600 minute. So you see how that kind of 273 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,000 flows down to that? Does that make sense? 274 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,800 It takes the emotion out of what's happening and actually 275 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,100 relays In a way that hospitals can measure and say this is 276 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:36,000 affecting patient outcomes. It's not just about my emotions 277 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,800 that was hard for me to have to deal with, but I'm a big girl, I 278 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,700 can do it, but you realize you were hurting other people, 279 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,400 whatever. This little stunt was that you 280 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,500 just pulled. So that is way more powerful 281 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,500 appealing to what matters to the hospital is going to make them 282 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:54,200 care about the bullying issue. That is a very, very good 283 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,900 Insight on the issue and through your journey you saying. 284 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,300 After that moment in the Yo, are you then you said, I didn't let 285 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:05,100 it go. I kept pursuing that and that's 286 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,200 what led you to get your master's degree and then your 287 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,700 doctoral degree. Correct. 288 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,000 Correct. And I knew that I was going to 289 00:14:11,008 --> 00:14:13,800 study bullying. I knew that I knew from day one, 290 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,200 that that was going to be my focus. 291 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,700 And it was interesting because when I, when you're in a non 292 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,500 quote-unquote nursing program, I had people go. 293 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,100 Oh, Tony. Oh, that's not a problem 294 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:23,800 bullying in nursing isn't a problem. 295 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,100 It's like, oh dear God, please just just go along with me on 296 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:28,700 this one. Yeah, just trust me. 297 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,500 Have to Jeff real interesting. Enough is I went through three 298 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,700 committee chairs in my doctoral program until I finally got a 299 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:39,400 nurse as my committee chair. And she and I was done in nine 300 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,900 months, her name is Darlene, has just my seat and I got done in 301 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:45,600 no time because she got it, she got it. 302 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,600 And she got me to. That is really cool and you 303 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,800 said, you had some experience in nursing leadership as well. 304 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,100 Oh, you worked on the bedside and then at some point, I mean, 305 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:56,200 you worked in the OR but that, at some point you became like 306 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,300 the manager of the, or did he did I became a manager ran You 307 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,000 are bored, trust me. You can get bullied by surgeons 308 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,200 like give me a time. I need to go now all of those 309 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,900 kind of things. And that's where you have to 310 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:10,800 say, follow the policy. The policy says, if you want a 311 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,500 bump so and so you have to call them and then all of the sudden 312 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,100 their emergency wasn't quite such an emergency. 313 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,800 So that's a part of it. And then I became director and 314 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,600 all of that. Then I actually spent 10 years 315 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,000 with a company called The Advisory Board based out of 316 00:15:25,008 --> 00:15:28,200 Washington DC, where we did Healthcare research, and I was 317 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,800 in for hospitals and five days. Nurse leaders become better 318 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,900 leaders. But one of the areas that I 319 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:36,700 became sort of clinical expert as we did a program on 320 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:40,200 disruptive behavior. I think many of us know that in 321 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,500 2008, The Joint Commission issued a sentinel alert saying, 322 00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:48,800 organizations that do not address disruptive behavior, 323 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,300 which will liing is for sure. A disruptive behavior will be 324 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:55,800 cited and will be in all of that and that came out in 2008. 325 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,600 And here we are in 2021 and it's still happening. 326 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,400 Clearly something is Miss here and I think it's still happening 327 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,100 and it's not getting talked about either. 328 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:06,700 I think that the way that you word it in the documentation 329 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,500 shows, like it doesn't matter. If this is just a catfight girl 330 00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:12,500 games, like, we need to get in here and start talking about 331 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:16,000 this because it's directly affecting patients and other 332 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,500 nurses. Well, beings. 333 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:19,600 And of the people that I interviewed nine interview at 334 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,200 the beginning of 2020, the year of the nurse, I was really going 335 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,500 to go. Gung ho about this covid 336 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:27,300 happened so that got kind of pushed but I'd interviewed 20 337 00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:29,400 nurses. And most of the nurses said that 338 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,200 they It's more bullying in their early years of practice and so 339 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,500 of late. I've been very concerned about 340 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:40,000 our new graduates who are graduating post covid and that 341 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,900 we as a profession kind of need to wrap our arms around them and 342 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:45,400 say we're going to welcome you into our profession. 343 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,800 We're going to we're going to be preceptors, we're going to help 344 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,200 you. You didn't get the clinical that 345 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,300 you should have but that doesn't matter. 346 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,500 We still want you we want to help you and I think that's an 347 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,500 area that our entire profession along with all the things we've 348 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:59,000 been through with covid, we can look at this particular moment 349 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,000 in time and Say to those who we are welcoming into our practice. 350 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,800 We want you, we want to help you, we want to care for you. 351 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,400 We want to make sure that you're successful. 352 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,800 What would you describe as a difference between a hard 353 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,099 preceptor? Meaning one that's like making 354 00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:18,000 sure that you're on your game versus one that's bullying 355 00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:21,900 because I feel like in my experience I've had hard 356 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:24,800 preceptors and there have been moments where they've asked me 357 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,800 hard questions in front of patients and I wasn't prepared 358 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,700 and I wasn't ready and then Makes me think like I never want 359 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:33,300 to be in that position again. She was right. 360 00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:36,100 I didn't know the answer to that question and so before I walk 361 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:38,100 into the room I want to know this. 362 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,500 This and this that first is one that you're like she's just 363 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,400 being mean to me. She doesn't like me. 364 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:44,600 Like, how do you differentiate between the two? 365 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:49,000 I think, relationships understanding communication. 366 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,100 I think the precept T has to own a piece of their process and 367 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:56,400 have those hard conversations with the preceptor. 368 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,200 Like I really want to be the best. 369 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,000 Push me as hard as you want to push me. 370 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Versus somebody who wants to deliberately and the keyword to 371 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,700 I think is deliberate. I think it's they deliberately 372 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:08,900 want to make themselves look better. 373 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:12,900 So you look worse and humiliation and all of that 374 00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:14,600 stuff. I think they have a sense of 375 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:17,200 let's shoot. I got humiliated in my 376 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,700 orientation. I'm going to do the same to you 377 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:22,800 and I've heard that many a time. If you can't, if you can't stand 378 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,100 the heat, get out of the kitchen. 379 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,300 That's, that's not a healthy way to deal with this. 380 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,500 It's like hazing exactly. Exactly. 381 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,000 And I think, One of the key elements to that, you're going 382 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,300 to see on the meanest Matrix is, can we see each other as people? 383 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,100 You have to recognize, you will never change the bullies 384 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:42,000 behavior. Only the bully can change if 385 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,700 they so choose to change. Now, I'm going to have a little 386 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:49,300 sidebar here. Organizations must have a code 387 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:54,100 of conduct that is enforceable, enforced and have the courage to 388 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,200 do it. I think organizations can 389 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,200 address the bullies behavior when it's documented and all of 390 00:18:59,208 --> 00:19:01,200 that. But you, You yourself must 391 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,700 protect your heart, your spirit, Your Mind, Body Spirit. 392 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:08,100 If your preceptor can see you as a person and you have those 393 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,400 conversations, you say, make me the best. 394 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,300 And then the preset, I've had preceptors that did that and 395 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:15,900 then they give you the wink afterwards because they know 396 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:19,000 that it was good for you and maybe I'm not into describing it 397 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,800 well, but those are the it's that relationship piece. 398 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,900 It's that understanding piece, it's that willingness to make 399 00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:27,400 that precept. T the best they can possibly 400 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,000 even if they're better than you. I had some students. 401 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,800 And I was really hard on them and I got feedback that they 402 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,100 felt like I was putting them down. 403 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:40,700 And I struggle with that like I have not taught since then 404 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,400 because I felt like seeing her really need to look at yourself 405 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,100 because you've experienced bullying. 406 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,800 You don't want to be a bully. And I remember thinking I was so 407 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,800 worried about them making mistakes because I had made 408 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,600 mistakes that I was actually teaching out of my wounding and 409 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,700 being so afraid that I was like, listen, you need to be perfect 410 00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,800 here. Because I made a mistake here 411 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,800 and I don't want you to ever make a mistake here. 412 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,200 I want you to know what you're doing, while you're giving it 413 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,500 where you're giving it. I had to spend some time with 414 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:13,200 myself and realize, like, I, I was so hurt by that situation, 415 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,200 that then I was kind of, like, living out my trauma with my 416 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,600 students and they were like, dude, what's your problem? 417 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,200 If we can prevent The Bullying from the front end, then we 418 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,400 probably would not have so many other nurses that kind of go 419 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,700 through that same process and think like, oh gosh, I don't 420 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,000 want you to deal with this. And so you might be reacting out 421 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,900 of Of your own issues. It's definitely a really 422 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:37,400 sensitive topic and it's an it is an issue that a lot of new 423 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,100 nurses are going to be dealing with. 424 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:41,400 And I think it's amazing that you're tackling it and you're 425 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,000 bringing it to the Forefront and you're making people look at 426 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,900 this issue because it is sensitive. 427 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,000 And it's one of those things that we just like to cover it up 428 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,500 and pretend like it's not happening and just go like oh 429 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,300 this isn't a big deal and then you start to see this ripple 430 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:55,300 effect. I'm really glad that you're that 431 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,500 you're talking about this that you've spent your whole career, 432 00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,000 your profession. So can you give me an example? 433 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:03,700 Love may be one of the biggest successes in your career up into 434 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:05,400 this point. Well, one of the things we 435 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,700 haven't talked about is that I was married to a bully as well. 436 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,900 And so that's a whole other podcast episode. 437 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:17,600 But I was a rock star at work. I mean, I was, I was good, I was 438 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,500 really good, but I was married to this person who literally 439 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,800 suck the life out of me. I think that some of the things, 440 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,300 the tendencies that we get bullied at work are also in our 441 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:28,100 personal life, too. And it's a long, long story. 442 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:31,600 I was in the last semester of my BSN And now ex-husband had come 443 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,400 home from prison and I got breast cancer in the last 444 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,200 semester of my BSN, and God bless my BSN cohorts, they took 445 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,100 care of me. And that's like I said, that's a 446 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:43,600 whole other thing. But when I decided to leave my 447 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,600 ex-husband, I left him with my 9 year old daughter and a one 448 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,200 suitcase full of sequence formals, that's a whole nother 449 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,400 story, but the point being is that I was a single mom doing 450 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,100 cabbages on call working and try and getting my Master's Degree. 451 00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:01,700 So, when I got my master's degree, me and my ex-husband had 452 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,800 a college degree, but not a masters and this is kind of like 453 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,500 their own personal moment. When they Hood, you, you turn to 454 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,000 the person and you turn around to the state, to the people in 455 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,700 the audience, and in my mind, and this is all captured on 456 00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:15,200 video, I'm smiling. And in my head, I'm going blank 457 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,500 ex-husband name, you will never touch me again and I so maybe 458 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:20,600 that's a different kind of success. 459 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,500 You're looking at but that's a journey for me. 460 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,200 That was my Rocky moment. Can't you see Rocky standard up 461 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,200 there? Feel that? 462 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,900 Like that's such a beautiful picture of you just being here. 463 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:32,500 It is like waking up as like a Jedi Knight. 464 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:36,000 Just like I'm this and that and that was sort of like that sort 465 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,700 of healing moment, kind of thing. 466 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,300 It's like all the things you said to me, that I was fat and 467 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:42,900 ugly and had only one boob and nobody would ever want me. 468 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,000 And all those kind of doesn't matter. 469 00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,100 You can't touch me. And that's the message. 470 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,500 I think if we, if people can take away from this conversation 471 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:55,000 is that you have to do your own internal work to get to where 472 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:58,200 you can't touch me, you're out there and you're doing crappy 473 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,900 things. But what I'm strong. 474 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,300 Ang I'm good. I got up my thing, your could do 475 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:04,000 all you want. I'm going to turn around and 476 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,400 raise my fist and say you can't get me now. 477 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,900 You can't do it. That's the takeaway dr. 478 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,600 Joe Neal. What are the things that I feel 479 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,700 like? And again, this, hopefully, this 480 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,400 is something that you can understand, but whenever you're 481 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,000 a young nurse and you're starting off in your career, how 482 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,900 do you get that hood Spa? How do you get that fire inside 483 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,400 you? When you're at least when I was 484 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,000 a new nurse? I was 21 years old. 485 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,300 I barely knew myself. I'm a I just got and you know I 486 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:34,900 don't have a school. And so how do you find that 487 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:39,000 thing inside of you that voice when you don't have the life 488 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,100 experience? Like, do you have to go through 489 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:43,900 the life experience? I like, how can you infuse it in 490 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:47,800 someone without you having to experience something terrible? 491 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,400 I actually work with teenage girls as well in a program. 492 00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:55,200 A club kind of a thing, and we talked a lot about that is who 493 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,100 are you? And what were you brought here 494 00:23:57,100 --> 00:23:59,200 to do? I have a strong belief in that 495 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,100 and not everybody. Does I think everybody's here 496 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:05,200 for a reason? But I gained knowledge by just 497 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,600 ask and the one thing I would tell any new nurse recognize, 498 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,300 you don't know what all recognize that recognize. 499 00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:13,900 You don't know it, all and find the person and it may not be 500 00:24:13,908 --> 00:24:15,900 your preceptor, you could say. Okay mrs. 501 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,500 So and so did this in this. And here's what I think it is in 502 00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:21,400 my right, can I do this and you're going to gain some of 503 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,600 that? Some of it really? 504 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,600 It is a passage of time and in the passage of experience but 505 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:31,300 what I'm hoping is that our nursing profession Can allow our 506 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:36,300 new members are apprentices. If you will, to spend to be 507 00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:40,900 nurtured and grown and helped. And if a season nurse is doing 508 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,800 something that doesn't happen very often. 509 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:44,900 Grab that. Apprentice and say, hey, come 510 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:46,900 with me for just a minute. So, I'm going to take a second 511 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:49,700 and then say, hey, Susie, watch so-and-so's patient while I show 512 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:53,200 her this, but we don't do that. We don't because we think power 513 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,700 and we think a knowledge makes us powerful and if I know how to 514 00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:59,000 do this and she doesn't then I'm needed on this unit. 515 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,100 Well, what happened? When you go on vacation and 516 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:03,300 nobody can do that thing that you can do with some of the 517 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:06,300 books that I've been reading about leadership and development 518 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:09,900 and intentional living. They talk about not feeling this 519 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:13,600 mindset of like scarcity. Like there is this scarcity 520 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,900 mindset where you just think there isn't enough and you're 521 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,500 like I have to hoard what I have and it's like actually if you 522 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,700 give away what you have you will end up getting more. 523 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,900 I feel like as women we have this idea of like there's not 524 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,500 enough husbands or enough, it's not enough this there's like we 525 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:29,900 got to get like we're all Fighting For. 526 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,400 Spoons. And it's your that game where 527 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,400 you put all the spoons in the middle and everyone's like, oh, 528 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:36,900 it's one less spoon and you just, you don't want to be the 529 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:39,900 one that doesn't get a spoon and like, a think that scarcity 530 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,600 mines. Yep, pulls us back from 531 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,700 advancing. And if we were like, you're 532 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,800 describing, like, absolutely go get that nurse. 533 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:48,400 Let me go show her how to do this. 534 00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,400 Hey listen, what? I know I want to share with you. 535 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,100 Like here have it like that. You will begin to live a life 536 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,400 with an open palm and you realize your palm will never be 537 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,400 empty. Yes, yes, yes. 538 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:04,300 For sure, one of the concerns I have is, my generation of nurses 539 00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:07,600 are pretty much for the most part retired, and I think about 540 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,000 the intellectual Capital, that's gone. 541 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,300 Now, I feel strongly about that too. 542 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,900 But there's a, there's a chance that you think about the 543 00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:18,300 archetypal sitting at the foot of somebody knowledgeable kind 544 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,400 of thing. And I think we, as a profession, 545 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,100 haven't we've shown under Elders, we've shunned all of 546 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:25,600 those people and then we're mean to our kids. 547 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,900 So we need to have that identity of the kind, loving people that 548 00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:34,900 Are because people who go into nursing, I believe 99.9999 are 549 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,300 kind and loving and what amazes me is. 550 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:43,000 I've seen nurses be so unbelievably kind in a room and 551 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,700 they'll come out in the hallway and rip the face off of somebody 552 00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:47,200 who walks by. And I think. 553 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,600 What is that all about? That was a beautifully painted 554 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,600 picture and I feel like that is that part of your? 555 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,600 You're probably challenges that you've had to overcome is breast 556 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,900 cancer, and husband that was just a total whack job. 557 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,700 Job. And I told, I spent 10 years at 558 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:03,500 The Advisory Board. It was like the best. 559 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:05,800 Those were, those are some of the mentors that I had hundreds 560 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,700 of hospitals that I went to. I was able to touch people's 561 00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:10,700 lives and and they touched mine as well. 562 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,400 And to just hear the stories. And to be with nurses every 563 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,300 single day, it was wonderful, but I actually left that job. 564 00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:20,400 I got remarried to a wonderful husband who I met in an airport. 565 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,400 That's another story. But I just, I took a job as a 566 00:27:23,408 --> 00:27:27,100 director of nursing in our local hospital and it was it was sort 567 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:29,800 of like, I know it was the ER, and or and I'd been there. 568 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,600 Week and we flunk The Joint Commission and we had to spend 569 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000 the next year being in survey hell but the piece of that one 570 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,900 is the CEO of that organization was toxic and people say oh it's 571 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:41,600 just toxic leaders by blah blah blah. 572 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,800 But let me tell, he said to me one time, until you've been here 573 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,500 for six months. Keep your damn mouth shut. 574 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,600 It's like, say, what? And he put that in writing. 575 00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:51,200 So let me just tell you. The end of the story is that I 576 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,000 kept records. I documented on emotionally, all 577 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,200 the things that happen and why. When I woke up was seven ulcers 578 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,800 and gained 30 pounds, I knew something had to change. 579 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,800 And a long story short, there was a Nexus event. 580 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,300 I just got pushed to the point where I had to do something and 581 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,800 I made an appointment with the vice, president of the corporate 582 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,700 human resources, and I took in my data and I have to say this 583 00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:13,200 is an organization that I believe has extreme courage 584 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,000 because he took me by the hand and said Joe Neal. 585 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,900 Nobody needs to work under these conditions. 586 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,300 I don't know what's going to happen. 587 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:20,900 Here's my card. Call me if you need me and 10 588 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,200 days later that CEO was walked out of the building. 589 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,300 Wow. So don't say it can't happen now 590 00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:28,600 because of your documentation. I was like the Catalyst they 591 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,200 interviewed 40 other people. In the midst of this time. 592 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,900 But I was the one who presented it in such a way that they could 593 00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:36,400 see how this was impacting the organization. 594 00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,300 And so people say well you can't do anything about HR and you 595 00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,000 can't do anything about your manager, organizations have to 596 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,600 have courage to say we don't want you here and they have to 597 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,200 have the documentation to do that. 598 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,100 And I've been at organizations where they were in the farthest 599 00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:53,400 nor this part and they had one orthopedic surgeon who was a 600 00:28:53,408 --> 00:28:57,400 complete total turd and was sending people elsewhere. 601 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,800 And the organization said we can't we can't fire him. 602 00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:01,500 Him. He's our only orthopedic surgeon 603 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:04,100 and 150 miles. And I've been at other hospitals 604 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,800 that had the same situation and said, we don't need your kind of 605 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,900 Texas city in our organization will find another orthopedic 606 00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,400 surgeon. So organizational courage is a 607 00:29:12,408 --> 00:29:15,400 piece of this as well. It's some point you look back in 608 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,300 history to write, like Hitler was a bully, right? 609 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:24,100 And the whole world look it until eventually, we said no 610 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:26,900 more with the bully, you gotta go, bro, right? 611 00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,500 It just takes that courage, and I think it was there's A really 612 00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:32,800 famous quote that's like something flourishes. 613 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,700 When good men do nothing? The only thing for evil to 614 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,000 succeed is for good. Men to do nothing. 615 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,600 That's it. That's the thing. 616 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,200 It's what like keeps coming to my mind when you describe that 617 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,800 whole process of the hugest standing there, I'm not going to 618 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,900 just let evil continue. Like if we'd say nothing, if we 619 00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,700 do nothing, it will continue. We've got to stand. 620 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,600 You've got to make a stand and I think we have a voice. 621 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,700 I think nursing has a voice. If we can just stop picking on 622 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:01,400 each. Other I'm staying together. 623 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,800 And that is what keeps you week is that you don't stand 624 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,700 arm-in-arm. I tend to just want to fight 625 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,600 with the people and I suppose it's like if we actually stood 626 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,100 arm in arm, we would be pretty much able to stop anything that 627 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:13,900 was evil going on. Well, like brene, brown talks 628 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:15,500 about that, she does look what happened. 629 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:18,300 When that, Senator said we played cards on our break. 630 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,400 Look at those things, we have the power, we have the 631 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,200 opportunity to do some of these things, but it's always like 632 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,400 who's going to be first. I don't care whose first as long 633 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,300 as we get there, the back of the bus gets there too, just as well 634 00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:31,900 as a front of them. I agree incredible. 635 00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:35,100 This is such incredible examples and did you you were going to 636 00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:37,900 start out kind of blue to it any mentors along the way to anybody 637 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:40,500 like come alongside you and you gotta help you through this 638 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:43,000 process. Your spin so many I can't really 639 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,000 pick up like my Advisory Board colleagues were some of the most 640 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,800 amazing people I worked with and they were from all over the 641 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,500 country. They were nurses from all over 642 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:52,800 and they encouraged me. The one day that I was going to 643 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,600 jump off the Washington Monument because I couldn't get my 644 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400 doctoral dissertation done. They were the group that held me 645 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,300 and said don't jump don't jump but But I have always been an 646 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:03,500 avid learner. And I believe, when the student 647 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,300 is ready, the teacher will appear people have come into my 648 00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,700 life at the right. Exact moment for me to 649 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:12,200 synthesize what happened last and I think you have to be open 650 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,900 to that like the meat. I'll tell you the story but the 651 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,200 meanest matrixing, you can believe it or not, believe it 652 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,200 but my husband and I were driving in his little 653 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,400 convertible in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. 654 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:24,600 The top was down the sun was beating on my head and all of a 655 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,200 sudden the meanest Matrix came to me and I'm like jotting it on 656 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,900 the back of a Rapper or kind of a thing and I just believe that 657 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,100 that was like it. Okay. 658 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:36,000 Daniel you come to this place. Here you go. 659 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,900 Here's your next step. And if you're open to that it 660 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:40,300 will come. I like that. 661 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,300 You build it, it will come. I like that. 662 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,300 And, what advice would you give to a nooner starting off? 663 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:49,600 I believe you've given so much nuggets along this whole 664 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,200 interview, but what would be kind of your whole psyche, 665 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,200 summarized like wham-bam statement of like this is what I 666 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,500 want you to take home for the cute trap. 667 00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:01,000 I would say, take care of you. You because you're no good to 668 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,000 everybody else. If you're not in a good place, 669 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,300 that's what I would say. I think that self-care is not a 670 00:32:06,308 --> 00:32:07,400 matter of like, getting a manicure. 671 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:09,700 Can I say Amen to that? Amen. 672 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,400 I feel like such a simple thing, I feel self care is spend time 673 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,500 with yourself like because nursing is so emotionally heavy 674 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:21,700 spending time in therapy or just spending time, like meditating 675 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:25,100 and reflecting on things. I just kept going, I was just, 676 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:27,200 like, just keep going to school it, just keep working. 677 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,900 And then I was like, oh, I might be really messed up. 678 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,200 One of the first times that I noticed that was with my 679 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600 students. Well, Sandra like spend a second 680 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,400 here because you are not caring for yourself and you haven't for 681 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,700 years, you've just been so busy about your issues are starting 682 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:44,800 to come through. There is a book, and I'm looking 683 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,700 for it on my bookshelf here about the wounded healer, 684 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,300 because it's a really poignant. And I think just growing into 685 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:53,100 yourself. I think we want to be done 686 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:55,400 before we're done or not done, you think? 687 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,000 Okay, I got the diploma. I'm done. 688 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,800 No, are you not done? I got that school. 689 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,500 No, I you're not done. Be open and be willing therapy. 690 00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:05,600 And coaching are the two things that have made a difference in 691 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,000 my life in terms of processing this because some of the stuff 692 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,700 is so heavy. You just don't know how to do it 693 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:13,200 on your own, and you hold it in the minute. 694 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,000 You hold it inside. It starts to become an 695 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,700 infection. And that's when you get what I 696 00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:20,300 call, it is Bully itís. When you get bully itís, then it 697 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:22,500 affects you and you've got to like, I need to have some 698 00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:24,700 antibiotics. Okay, let me go see a therapist 699 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:26,800 or let me get a coat. This isn't something you should 700 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,600 do on your own gonna debride the wound. 701 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:29,700 You got to open it up. Yeah. 702 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:33,700 In their advice and the last part of our interview is the 703 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,400 rapid fire questions. Okay. 704 00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:39,500 Questions was so, the first question is, what is your 705 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,600 favorite word? It's probably a swear word and I 706 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,300 can't say it enough and sometimes it just feels so good 707 00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:48,500 to say. So what it can't do that, it's 708 00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:51,500 probably Jeepers. What is, what are your favorite 709 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,000 books? Oh gosh, Man's Search for 710 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,500 meaning by Viktor Frankl. We did pretty much every year at 711 00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:01,300 some point and when I would gone through That thing with the CEO, 712 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:03,400 I got that right off my right off my bookshelf. 713 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,400 It's worn. It's torn. 714 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,500 It's written in, but it has so much to say his messages is. 715 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,100 You can change. The circumstances can do all 716 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:11,600 sorts of things. This is the gentleman that was 717 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,300 in the concentration camp. He was a physician in a Nazi 718 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:16,800 concentration camp and he said, you can take everything away 719 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,600 from me, but my attitude and that is I think. 720 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,900 One of the best lessons we can learn, okay? 721 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:25,800 And I feel like you're this kind of girl, what is the first 722 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,100 concert you ever attended? So old you're gonna it's like 723 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:32,300 it's going to tell you. Although I am John Denver, who's 724 00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:34,500 John Denver, there you go, there you go. 725 00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:38,600 It's like this folk singer guy. I was probably like 12 sort of a 726 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,100 thing and in Flint. Michigan. 727 00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:43,199 They were see. I am a sports arena and he came 728 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:47,100 and he sounds like he's saying zany song, Country Roads. 729 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:51,000 Almost Heaven West Virginia. John Denver. 730 00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:55,699 It's like this lady goes. Well, thank you so much for 731 00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:59,300 coming onto the podcast today and chatting so happy to have 732 00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:03,500 you and Your whole conversation is just littered with such sweet 733 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,900 little pieces of knowledge. There's just awesome little 734 00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:09,200 morsels for our souls, so thank you. 735 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600 Thank you for asking me. It's like I said, it is my 736 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,200 mission to get this message out to nurses and to other people. 737 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,000 And I think at the time is right after what we've been through in 738 00:35:18,008 --> 00:35:21,600 the last couple years and all of that as a nation as a 739 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,800 profession, as a world, we need to see some of this, love it. 740 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,300 Thank you. You're welcome. 741 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:29,400 We are at the end of our time together. 742 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,700 I We enjoyed the chat. Please be sure to subscribe to 743 00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:35,700 the show so you don't miss an episode and leave us a review. 744 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,500 If you like to show, I would love to get 5 stars. 745 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:40,600 The doctors podcast is on Instagram. 746 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,600 So please follow us there for any updates on new podcasts and 747 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,100 inspirational information to help you on your own Journey. 748 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,900 You could always message me at the doctor nurse podcast at 749 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,800 gmail.com with any Career Information or professions that 750 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,800 you're interested in hearing about. 751 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:59,000 And as always, thanks for listening, I want to thank my 752 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,900 biggest fan. Supporter on patreon Kevin prior 753 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:03,700 for your support of this podcast. 754 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,400 If you love this podcast and want to throw some support my 755 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,000 way, I would greatly appreciate it. 756 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:11,000 My link is in the show notes. I just a reminder, the 757 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,800 information in this podcast is for educational purposes. 758 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,200 Only and the information should not be used in substitute for 759 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,200 Professional Care by medical provider. 760 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,300 The information. This podcast is not represent 761 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,400 medical or other, professional advice for services.